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The Washington Elite Are Anti-Hillary; Obama Is Their Candidate

There is a great irony in Barack Obama's claim to be the anti-Washington candidate. The DC Establishment of course HATE the Clintons and have come to love Barack Obama. But the DC Establishment have always hated the Clintons:

Clinton spent so long as the dominant personality in the Democratic Party that it is easy to forget: Lots of elite Democrats never liked the guy that much. Or, perhaps more precisely, their feelings of admiration were constantly at war with feelings of disdain.

The ferocity of anti-Clinton sentiments heard around Washington in recent days — as even some former Clinton White House aides say they are enjoying the Kennedy endorsement and the implicit rebuke of the Clintons — has reached levels that haven’t been seen for seven years. Clinton’s pardons in the closing hours of his presidency prompted a similar backlash.

One thing to wonder about is whether the DC Establishment take Obama's criticisms of Washington seriously. I submit they do not. And rightly so. These "outsider" appeals are always phony.

Update (TL): 237 comments, this thread is closing.

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    They felt the same way about Carter (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by BernieO on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:28:30 AM EST
    The disdain that the Beltway High folks had for both the Clintons and Carters was despicable. I always thought it was in part the "Bubba" prejudice. It was not just conservatives, but also liberal elites as you point out. These insiders are very chummy with each other and do not want interlopers in their club. The most telling admission of this was made by Sally Quinn in the pages of the Washington Post. Here is a great article on the topic:
    http://www.crisispapers.org/essays6p/snobocracy.htm
    One of my most favorite example of this bias is Sally Quinn's outrage over Bill Clinton's behavior with Monica. That was particularly entertaining because Quinn's hubby, Ben Bradlee of Watergate fame, wrote in his memoir that Sally pursued him until she finally got him to have an affair with her which broke up his marriage. These people have no shame.

    Obama is the Establishment Candidate (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:30:27 AM EST
    It burnishes their image (none / 0) (#209)
    by BernieO on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:13:22 PM EST
    Supporting Obama is consistent with their self image as open minded, progressive people. It is really all about them.

    Parent
    There seems to be some sort of misconception (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by RalphB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:47:22 AM EST
    that when Bill Clinton won in '92 the media was on his side.  That's totally wrong.  Big media did their dead level best to kill him off in the primaries and he won because voters got to see and like the man.  People of my acquaintance saw someone who was on their side and had policies to match.  My own remembrance is the media never came around and he won over their objections.

    A similar scenario played out in '96 when he beat Dole.  Bill Clinton beat the media and the republicans twice.  That made his victories all the sweeter for me because I've hated big media for a long time, not just the last few years.  Before big media handed W to us as president, they were largely responsible for the despicable adulation of Reagan.  That did it for me and I've detested them ever since.

    Annoy the media ... Vote for Hillary!
     

    That's Because (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:48:55 AM EST
    Democrats, including Obama, have decided that the Clintons were as much to blame for the partisanship of the 1990s as the Republicans.  Now, they don't always say it that way, but it's implied.

    This is how Democrats differ from Republicans.  Republicans burnish and celebrate their history, even the lamest of it, while Democrats run for cover and point fingers at each other.

    Parent

    Please inform yourself before it is too late (5.00 / 2) (#202)
    by BernieO on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:57:56 PM EST
    PLEASE EVERYONE get a copy of "The Hunting of the President" by Gene Lyons and Joe Conason. These two reputable journalists followed the right wing attacks on the Clintons as well as the compliance of the media. Every Democrat needs to learn about how this works ASAP. This was not just about the Clintons, as so many think, it was an all out assault on the Democratic Party. One that most Democrats sat back and allowed to happen. Our candidates have been torpedoed by these two forces in both 2000 and 2004. Go to dailyhowler.com to read the archives from Gore and Kerry's campaign years to get a better understanding of the media's behavior. Most of us are so blind that we only recognize these tactics when it is our candidate who is being attacked.

    To get started read this report on the man who was the SOLE person who accused the Clintons of illegal dealings in the Whitewater deal.
    http://www.salon.com/news/1998/08/cov_12news.html
    Be sure to read parts 2 and 3. The entire scandal was based on the lies of a known con man and embezzler. The worst part was that right wing operatives financed by Richard Mellon Scaife and pals had the ear of a NY Times reporter, Jeff Gerth. (Gerth was also involved in the bogus attacks on Wen Ho Lee.)He did exactly what Judith Miller did on WMD. Unlike the Washington Post during Watergate the Times did not insist that Gerth give them any credible evidence or witnesses to back up his claims. The Times, with the rest of the media following their lead, pushed the issue so hard that Clinton eventually agreed to have a special prosecutor, respected Republican Robert Fisk, appointed. Fisk completely absolved the Clintons but the media kept pushing so an independent counsel, Ken Starr, was appointed and the race was on. Our country was put through an unnecessary scandal which cost millions and distracted us from the serious issues we needed to handle. I still am amazed that Clinton managed to survive all that and carry out his duties.
    People will pooh pooh this as ancient history, but do not kid yourself. The same crowd is operating now. They have managed to bring down our last two candidates and will succeed again unless we all wise up.

    Parent

    thank you so much (none / 0) (#235)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:43:33 PM EST
    Bernie for your very informed review of this period....These Obama supporters don't realize that they have been conned I think by this same force....I am worried this time....There is no shame these people have....My God they are subverting the people's wishes and votes....Propaganda wasnt this good in Communist Russia....Wow....

    Parent
    Clinton Fatigue (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by jsj20002 on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:48:04 AM EST
    I would like to note that many of us outside the beltway also suffer from Clinton fatigue.  I am a 64 year old white guy who lives in Northern Michigan. I was just recently denied the right to vote for the candidate of my choice by the Democratic National Committee and the Michigan Democratic Party. Hillary Clinton did not follow our party rules. She also did not follow the Florida rules. Her recent attack on Barack Obama's work as a junior associate in a Chicago law firm was unprincipled. Does she really want to bring up the missing billing records from her days at the Rose law firm in Little Rock? What "slumlords" did she represent?  

    I supported John Edwards in 2004 and I still believe he has the best programs, however, I am now strongly leaning towards Barack Obama because I believe his amazing rhetorical skills and his message of hope will bring hundreds of thousands of young voters to the polls next November and they will vote overwhelmingly Democrat.  In my humble opinion, Hillary Clinton will certainly bring a few more independent women to the polls, but she will also drive about the same number of independent men to the other side. She will also bring out the Republicans in droves.  For the sake of our Democratic candidates for Congress, state legislatures, and local offices we need Barack Obama on our ticket in first or second place. The negative tone of Hillary and Bill Clinton's campaign could well prevent that from happening.        

    She did follow the rules (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:50:18 AM EST
    Your statement is false on that score.

    As for fatigue, I am tired of people having fatigue for the peace and prosperity of the 90s.

    Parent

    Why didnt (none / 0) (#167)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:48:49 AM EST
    the media cover the fact that the one branch of the Kennedy family didnt go along and endorsed Hillary...That seems news worthy to me but not a peep about it in the MSM....

    Parent
    prosperity (none / 0) (#168)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:49:19 AM EST
    Clinton was good on the economy, but he had a lot of luck. They aren't going to recreate a tech boom, we won't have .99 gas.  Those were the biggest factors in the 90's and they aren't coming back.

    As for peace.

    We had a several military actions, aside from Somalia they went well.  He failed to create a Palestinian state, though I give him a lot of credit for trying.    the Taliban took control of Afganistan under his watch.  Pakistan and India both went nuclear.

    So imo peace and prosperity line is a superficial look at the 90's.

    Parent

    Please don't make things up. (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:59:46 AM EST
    Hillary Clinton did not follow our party rules. She also did not follow the Florida rules.

    What rules do you believe that she violated?

    If you resent the lack of ability to cast a vote for your candidate in Michigan why don't you take it up with your candidate, who chose to remove his name from the ballot?

    What "slumlords" did she represent?

    I dunno.  What little children did you kill and eat?  When did you stop beating your wife?  If there's any information linking Clinton to one or more slumlords, post the details.  Otherwise, don't cast invented aspersions on good candidates.

    Parent

    so then vote for obama though (none / 0) (#40)
    by hellothere on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:11:49 AM EST
    he has barely warmed his seat in the senate that he won because the repubs imploded? he promises change but won't be clear on what it is. he wants to bomb pakistan. he doesn't understand social security. he was against iraq before he was for it. but, but, but hillary isn't liked so vote for him? no thanks

    Parent
    obama said (none / 0) (#114)
    by ogo on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:24:40 AM EST
    if there was inteligence that Pakistan didn't act on, as president, he would act.  Just a fact check not an endorsement.

    Parent
    Bush knows there is intelligence (none / 0) (#121)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:35:39 AM EST
    and that Pakistan is not acting on it.  I sure don't want him to go into Pakistan though.  

    Parent
    i'll go do my research on this. (none / 0) (#124)
    by hellothere on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:41:14 AM EST
    it is quite important. frankly obama sounds too quick to make comments. the part without notifying pakistan? without notifying the un or our nato partners are concerns of mine hence the research. as i recall there was quite a bit of discussion about it with the end result being obama made an comment that wasn't helpful.

    Parent
    he was just (none / 0) (#175)
    by Judith on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:54:28 AM EST
    making up for previously saying he would sit down and tallk one on one with what I will term "unfriendly nations" for want of a better term.

    Parent
    some (none / 0) (#198)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:40:59 PM EST
    democrats think diplomacy is a good way of resolving conflicts

    Parent
    Your Candidate CHOSE To Remove (none / 0) (#53)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:20:54 AM EST
    his name from the Michigan ballot to pander to the voters in Iowa. Nothing in the RULES required him to do so. Obama is on the ballot in Florida and his political ad for whatever reason was the first Dem presidential ad to run in Florida.

    Now let's take on the issue of Obama and Rezko. Obama had a 17 year business and personal relationship with Rezko. Rezko donated sizable amounts of money to Obama's campaigns. Obama and his wife met with Rezko and his wife for dinner a couple a times a month. Rezko and Obama had a real estate deal which, while not illegal, was not exactly appropriate behavior for a legislator to be involved with.

    Parent

    If, as I presume, you are a Hillary supporter, (none / 0) (#159)
    by Tano on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:29:43 AM EST
    you REALLY do not want to go there - to an argument over who has the most sleazy characters in their donor lists.

    Now, do you?

    Parent

    Why would we not want to go there? (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by RalphB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:48:12 AM EST
    Or have you forgotten that $70 million was spent investigating every corner of the Clinton's lives with darn near nothing to show for it?  Want to see what that kind of investigation gets you from Obama's past?  If he's the nominee, you may get that wish.


    Parent
    That Is The Bad Thing About Presuming (5.00 / 3) (#178)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:01:14 PM EST
    anything without knowing the facts. I was one of the last holdouts for Gore getting into the race because my favorite option was none of the above. I moved to being a weak Edwards supporter because I didn't want to vote for either Clinton or Obama and I thought his domestic policy  positions were better than Clinton's and Obama's. Since I'm not trilled with the prospect of Edwards brokering my vote, I have no idea who I will vote for on Feb. 5th. It might even be Romney because I think he would be easier to defeat than McCain and my favorite candidate is still none of the above. About the only thing you should presume is that I will not be voting for Obama.

    Sure Clinton has sleezy characters on her donors list. So does Obama. Since the Clinton's have been in politics longer than Obama, I'm sure her list is longer. As far as I'm concerned, neither wins the "Spotless Candidate" of the decade  award. The only difference is that it has always been fair game to discuss Clinton's donors but suddenly the rules have changed and Obama's donors have somehow become off limits.

    Parent

    O/T (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by andgarden on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:56:55 AM EST
    Did you catch Sebelius's response? It sounded to me like an Obama stump speech

    Did it? (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:58:20 AM EST
    I di not care for Sebelius being chosen and endorsing Obama in the next days.

    That is kinda dirty politics frankly.

    Parent

    Yup, that's right (none / 0) (#31)
    by andgarden on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:01:11 AM EST

    In this time, normally reserved for the partisan response, I hope to offer you something more: An American response.

    [. . .]

    In spite of the attempts to convince us that we are divided as a people, a new American majority has come together. We are tired of leaders who rather than asking what we can do for our country, ask nothing of us at all.



    Parent
    Wellllll (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:07:18 AM EST
    That is pretty vague. I know that is Obama's message but it is pretty standard fare.

    Parent
    Yeah, it just struck me as stumpy (none / 0) (#62)
    by andgarden on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:27:40 AM EST
    I'm sure no one will remember it anyway.

    Parent
    Terribly disappointing after Webb (none / 0) (#215)
    by Bartimaeus Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:28:14 PM EST
    No one will remember this response.  As I woke up again this morning I thought to myself for the first time in a long time that if this is the direction that the campaign with "momentum" is going in... we really could lose it again this year.

    Quite depressing.

    Parent

    i am going to say what i thought last (none / 0) (#233)
    by hellothere on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:28:03 PM EST
    night but first i want to say i respect the work this governor did after the tornado last year. she needs someone to improve her speaking skill/presentation and makeup. the makeup was very skillful no doubt but she just looked washed out. there was no life there. she could be in a department store window for all the spark that wasn't there.

    Parent
    Dirty? (none / 0) (#33)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:01:56 AM EST
    Maybe -- doesn't seem too bad to me.

    But well-played?  Unquestionably.

    Parent

    Certainly dirty (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:06:40 AM EST
    The response to the SOTU is no place to play primary politics.

    Yes dirty.

    Parent

    During the primary. . . (none / 0) (#49)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:18:07 AM EST
    every place (at least, up to the water's edge) is a place to play primary politics.

    I didn't hear Sebelius (I don't go for that gloomy Norwegian stuff) but from the sound of it she was simply taking it to Bush as being divisive and telling him to get on board with America's priorities.  That's a good and appropriate message for the Dem response -- and if it happens to play into Obama's campaign theme, good for him.

    Parent

    Re: (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:21:27 AM EST
    It wasn't a good response, it was the polar opposite of Jim Webb's message from last year.  In the context of her endorsement of Obama within the next couple days it's pretty jarring to hear a speech that sounds like something straight out of Obama's playbook.

    There's nothing wrong with the standard bipartisan schtick, but it's getting to the point where these people want to rebrand the Democratic Party as a party that doesn't fight the Republicans.  I think this approach has worked wonders for party-building in Kansas but it's scary to think of it on the national scene.

    Parent

    Look (none / 0) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:21:18 AM EST
    my argument is she should not have been chosen to do the response.

    Parent
    Who decides who does the (none / 0) (#91)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:52:17 AM EST
    Dem. response to a Republican President's speech?

    Parent
    Congressional leaders (none / 0) (#112)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:16:49 AM EST
    Translated: Ted Kennedy (none / 0) (#115)
    by Cream City on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:24:45 AM EST
    the leading Dem, second in seniority in the Senate only to Byrd, etc.

    Parent
    Sebelius's speech was witless (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by lily15 on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:31:41 AM EST
    She is an Obama surrogate and her speech is what we have to look forward to from the Obama narrative.  It is lethal. But more profoundly, it is false and undermines the very arguments Democrat now can make to push them to victory.  The sheer stupidity of the Obama/Washington liberal elites is the reason Democrats have lost so many elections.  Clinton came from his own inspired DLC, that crafted its own message to beat the Republicans in the 90s.  

    How sad that some would move the party back to its loser messages and softball politics.

    Parent

    It' (none / 0) (#213)
    by Bartimaeus Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:25:29 PM EST
    Re: (5.00 / 0) (#51)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:18:58 AM EST
    The vast majority of endorsements have to do with the raw business of politics, horse-trading and back-scratching.  Of course they're all sold as sincere endorsements of the candidate's values but I hope we're all more grown-up than that.

    One of the ways the Clintons pissed off the Washington Establishment is that because they were genuine outsiders, they brought so many of their own people to Washington and didn't give the established Democratic machine its due.  That leads to a lot of resentment among people who thought they were next in line for such-and-such job and now some guy from Arkansas has it.

    Similarly, one reason to jump on board the Obama train is that his ranks are still open and there's a chance of getting something out of it for yourself, while the FOB ranks are pretty full at this point.  At least, I think we all can hope that Obama won't be bringing too many pols from Chicago with him.

    That does not explain Kennedy though (none / 0) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:20:41 AM EST
    Re: (none / 0) (#58)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:22:53 AM EST
    Actually, it kinda does.  Steve Clemons had a great post that explains why.

    And of course, I'm not saying that every endorsement is 100% insincere or anything like that.  I don't think Caroline Kennedy goes around invoking her father's legacy for political gain.

    Parent

    Very interesting post (none / 0) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:27:54 AM EST
    Ted Kennedy has the largest machine in the Democratic Party. When I used to work in the Senate, I marveled at the Kennedy franchise -- at the number of people who had started with Kennedy, who then went on to different positions in government and the private sector, and then came back for his annual "friends only" Holiday Party at which he and his wife always showed up in some extremely cool but outrageous attire (I was there for Beauty and the Kennedy Beast). There were thousands upon thousands at this close friends' party.

    The Clintons have a franchise of course. So does Joe Biden and Daschle and John Breaux. But the Kennedy empire is enormous -- and when Tom DeLay tried to stop the hiring of Democrats by K Street, it was Ted Kennedy's machine and his acolytes that he was really trying to hurt.

    So this endorsement by Kennedy does have magnitude -- and bolsters Obama's position. The Clinton machine remains formidable and nationally deployed -- and may still have an edge. But there is no doubt that Kennedy's endorsement is not about Massachusetts nor about an aging white liberal -- it is about the thousands and thousands of followers who owe their careers to Ted Kennedy.

    This is also about machine politics -- and Kennedy wants his machine to continue to thrive and to have major impact on the course of American policy and politics (and also wants his people to get jobs).

    The Clinton franchise could never really be true to the Kennedy machine -- Bill and Hillary have their own many thousands of followers beholden to them.

    Obama is fresh enough and new enough that he doesn't have such a machine; now Kennedy has gifted Obama an enormous vehicle which Kennedy hopes Obama will take as his own and keep intact.

    But I do not see how this explains Kennedy's motivation. His power will be the same whomever is President. Unless you see Obama doing his bidding.

    In which case, I LOVE this endorsement.

    P.S. Caroline Kennedy's endorsement is less than meaningless to me. When has she given a fig for Democratic politics in a public way?

    Parent

    Two Ways (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:59:10 AM EST
    It expands Kennedy's power in two ways.  Obama will need to fill a lot of positions and, my guess, is that he'll put Kennedy people in some of them.  The Clintons already have their own machine with their own people.  

    Second, it burnishes the myth of John Kennedy and, to a large extent, it's the Camelot myth that keeps all of the Kennedys relevant.  Sure Ted Kennedy would be important anyway, but his endorsement has more power than others because he's a Kennedy.  And would anyone care about Patrick's, if not for who his uncles were?   But they're tying JFK to the new guy, just as they once tied it to Bill Clinton, in hopes that the Kennedy mystique continues.  Obama is a guy who reinforces the myth, taking all the nasty edges off of it.  JFK was a uniter who brought the country together for a noble purpose and made everyone feel happy again with his beautiful wife and love of culture.  Not the guy who won one of the closest elections in US history that many accused his daddy of buying for him in Chicago.  Not the young hawk who didn't know any better than to okay the Bay of Pigs.  Not the guy who decided to escalate Vietnam (the Kennedy machine has spent forty years trying to convince people that he would've ended it, unlike the terrible Lyndon Johnson) or the guy who didn't have any real legislative accomplishments (granted, some of that was his tragically shortened life).

    I like a lot of things the Kennedys have done, but at the end of the day they're pols and pols put themselves first.    This endorsement is first and foremost about the Kennedys.  

    Which doesn't mean Obama shouldn't be happy to get it.  The Kennedys still carry a lot of weight in the Democratic party.

    Parent

    Kennedy's endorsement also gives (none / 0) (#92)
    by byteb on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:52:21 AM EST
    cover and protection to other politicians who might want to come out for Obama but who don't want to take on the long memoried Clinton machine..

    Parent
    I think he was offended by Hillary's remarks (none / 0) (#205)
    by BernieO on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:05:38 PM EST
    Hillary made the point that it was LBJ, not JFK who got the Civil Rights Bill passed. The Kennedys hated LBJ and I have a feeling that Ted was not happy that Hillary made this point. Everyone has been talking about how what she said diminished MLK, which I think is ridiculous. Everyone knows that MLK needed politicians to get the Civil Rigths Bill passed. However, most people I know give Kennedy the credit, not LBJ, so Hillary's bringing this up really does diminish the Kennedy aura.


    Parent
    he is not a petty twit (none / 0) (#224)
    by Judith on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:56:10 PM EST
    He knew what she meant. I cant see this being his reason.

    Parent
    I Always Assumed (5.00 / 0) (#55)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:21:21 AM EST
    That is was a class issue. The Clintons, even though they are rich, do not act aristocratic. More middle class and fine with it. On the other hand Obama acts like a prince.

    It is ironic though that both Obama and Clinton represent the same establishment values.

    Not Always Rich (none / 0) (#100)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:02:15 AM EST
    And when the Clintons arrived, they weren't even rich.  They were upper middle class, at best.  That's part of what Whitewater and everything was about - how dare they want money?  

    Parent
    You are correct (5.00 / 0) (#208)
    by BernieO on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:10:55 PM EST
    When Clinton was elected to office, his assets were minimal. They did not even own a house. That was one reason I was always sceptical of the Whitewater accusations. Everyone seemed to agree that the Clintons were extremely intelligent and powerful, so if they had been motivated by greed they would have been rich, which they most definitely were not. Also everyone agreed that they had lost $35,000 on Whitewater, by the way. It is only since leaving office that they have built up their wealth, primarily through books and speaking engagements. And that was only after paying off their huge legal bills.

    Parent
    The corporate media loves to keep (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by magisterludi on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:06:25 AM EST
    the heat on Hillary and Bill. If they didn't, they might have to actually vet Obama's economic team. There are reasons the likes of K-Lo. Brooks, Broder and George Will feel comfortable with the prospect of a BHO presidency. This economic team is much closer to Milton Friedman than Paul Krugman.
    I hope the Obama supporters are not basing all their confidence in him solely on his stance on Iraq before his election to the Senate.

    Dead on Arrival and the stoning of Hillary (4.60 / 5) (#153)
    by lily15 on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:16:06 AM EST
    If Hillary were male, she would unquestionably be the united Democratic choice, by virtue of her experience, tenacity, brilliance and political bona fides...to say nothing of her name recognition and history of prior successful campaigns.  But the Washington
    liberal/progressive alliance (which includes MSM and the blogosphere) has banded together to prove their myopia and sexism in supporting a superficial, weak and losing narrative with Obama.

    Obama is not only NOT Bill Clinton, he cannot successfully hijack Bill's "hope" narrative of the 90s.  It was unique to Bill's entire message, which included a southern and moderating tone appealing to independents at the time.  And if I recall, he was a very aggressive advocate...not all mushy inspiration.

    What we see today is an attempt by Democratic elites and their allies in the progressive and liberal media to hijack the election process from the people.(All polling indicates Democrats are very happy with their Democratic candidates equally so this one sided Hillary attack is both unwarranted and not called for by the people)

     These media elites (and their cunning Republican allies) are pulling out all the stops to damage a Big Dem and force their own losing reality on the country and Democrats.  Therefore, only the people can repudiate this insanity.

      And if the Democratic electorate hasn't had enough of the losing strategies of the Washington/liberal/progressive/Ted Kennedy alliance, then they deserve the full responsibility (along with their followers/sheeple) for Democrats' ultimate loss... they and the highly susceptible and weak minded Obama version of the liberal/progressive movement pushes a mindless narrative as exemplified by Gov. Sebelius' impotent Democratic response to Bush's defiant SOU.  It was and is the Obama stump speech delivered without passion. Not only isn't it RFK or JFK, it is DOA .

    Obama represents the impotent wing of the Democratic party...afraid to take the fight to the Republicans and challenge with passion and tenacity a hollow,cynical and mean conservative movement.  Democrats' don't deserve to win with their do gooder white guilt and Christian desire to turn the other cheek. A woman would be laughed off the stage with Obama's resume if she were running for President after one year in the Senate.  But liberals/progressives are so proud of their racial progressism.  Too bad they don't have the same reverence for female equality as they do for racial equality. Too bad they are not interested in moving beyond latent and virulent sexism but feel comfortable with the racism arguments of a vocal victimized minority. Too bad they are blind to a much larger victimized interest group that looks equal for all intents and purposes.  Are we embarrassed or uncomfortable with  acknowledging sexism but safe in the familiar cause against racism?

     As a woman, I want my interests protected.  And my interest group is larger than other minority interest groups. And with a winning, strong and experienced candidate, I deserve a seat at the table in equal measure, and racism is no holier a cause than sexism. And if women don't get this marginalization and wholesale sexism that is the stoning of Hillary, they deserve a creeping loss of respect and power that this will engender.

    exactly! (5.00 / 0) (#220)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:31:40 PM EST
    I could not agree more.

    (but, would like to point out that women are actually not a minority group.  We just act like one...)

    Parent

    how did you know? (4.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:53:40 AM EST
    If Hillary were male, she would unquestionably be the united Democratic choice

    Right everyone who doesn't support her is sexist.  That must be it.

    Parent

    Brilliant (none / 0) (#160)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:33:21 AM EST
    i would be (none / 0) (#179)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:03:39 PM EST
    embarrassed if the person who refers to democrats as "punks" called anything I said brilliant.


    Like I said (3.75 / 4) (#1)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 11:43:42 PM EST
    Punk.  

    per M-W


    1 archaic : prostitute

    2[probably partly from 3punk] : nonsense foolishness

    3 a: a young inexperienced person : beginner novice; especially : a young man b: a usually petty gangster, hoodlum, or ruffian cslang : a young man used as a homosexual partner especially in a prison

    4 a: punk rock b: a punk rock musician c: one who affects punk styles

    So I take it you meant def 3, which is racist and homophobic all at the same time.

    And the best part 4 people rated it 5.  Take the Obama bashing to new levels

    Parent

    I used the (none / 0) (#181)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:06:33 PM EST
    # 3 version for not shaking Hillary's hand. I stand by it.

    Parent
    well then you made (none / 0) (#187)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:15:24 PM EST
    a racist and homophobic remark,

    Parent
    when did Punk (none / 0) (#191)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:20:59 PM EST
    become a racist word? I will not argue that with you cause this is ridiculous and twisted.

    Parent
    stop now (none / 0) (#193)
    by Judith on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:23:59 PM EST
    it will only get worse.  

    Parent
    You know judith (none / 0) (#200)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:49:57 PM EST
    I like you, so i would hope that you would want to distance yourself from such comments.  yeah I'm rude, I'm not the one calling people punks, or other such nonsense.

    Parent
    the only candidate that is homophobic (none / 0) (#206)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:06:23 PM EST
    is obama....some of his advisors are downright insulting to the gay community...

    Parent
    notice (none / 0) (#211)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:19:53 PM EST
    this is a conversation about, an unfortunate comment, made by someone, not about any candidate.

    Are you capable of posting anything that isn't a personal insult to Obama?

    some of his advisors are downright insulting to the gay community...

    As a member of "the gay community," I'm probably a better judge of what is insulting to the "us."


    Parent

    ahem (5.00 / 0) (#221)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:35:53 PM EST
    hey, gay community member: can you tell me who the first first lady was to march in a gay pride parade?  The first president to address the AIDS crisis?  The first first lady who told a gay staff member who was outted that she refused to accept his resignation?  And which candidate was the only one to accept the invitation to the HRC board meeting?  And which candidate called the HRC to her senate office and designed a game plan to beat the DOM act?

    hint: the "she" should give it away.

    Parent

    keep in mind I never (none / 0) (#227)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:22:44 PM EST
    called Hillary homophobic, anthrio called Obama homophobic.

    So I take it you are implying that as a gay man i owe her loyalty?  

    as for my issues:  

    can you tell me who the first first lady was to march in a gay pride parade?

    yes that is what being gay is all about, marching in a parade, our entire identity.  Big wow Rudy Guiliani has marched in them.

    The first president to address the AIDS crisis?

    Not all gay men have AIDS or even HIV, in fact most people with HIV/Aids are not gay.  The fact that you still think HIV/Aids is a gay/straight issues, shows how utterly clueless you are.

    Wow she as first lady let a gay person work for her.  In the 90's how advanced.  IT was the 90's not 1950.

    As for DOMA, Bill signed it into law, so her strategy to defeat it didn't include her husband vetoing it.  So I guess you can understand why I don't trust her to fight for me.

    But you right I should fall and rejoice that queen Hillary was great enough not to put me in a concentration camp.  I should accept every little symbolic thing she has done, and be great full.  How dare I ask for more.

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#232)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:24:38 PM EST
    In 1992, the AIDS crisis was still considered a gay issue, so I am not sure why you take exception to that.  Having lost six (you read that right-SIX) of my good friends to the virus while Reagan would not even utter the word has made me a tad bitter, so you must excuse me on that point.  Also, having had my nose smashed by a homophobic jerk at an ACTU UP rally who screamed, "you deserve to die from AIDS!" as he straddled and beat me has also left me a tad scarred, too, though thankfully, that's only on the inside.  

    As for your vaunted 1992 gay freedom, I think you have a very foggy memory of what things were like during that time, at least for the majority of gay Americans.  I can tell you that they were not vastly different from the 1950s.  Men and women were still being openly attacked and discriminated against for the simple matter of their sexual orientation, and no one was particularly outraged unless it happened in San Francisco or New York.

    And, finally, I think that you speak for the gay community as a whole about as much as I do, so I suggest you get off your high horse before you take a nasty fall.  I am not asking you to bow at Hillary's feet, but respecting the fact that she was alone in the crowd, taking political hits for supporting the gay community, and is still standing means that she at the very least deserves a modicum of respect.

    And that is all I have to say on this matter.

    Parent

    hey (none / 0) (#236)
    by Judith on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:55:04 PM EST
    I am very sorry that happened to you. That is terrible. No need to respond..you said enough.

    Parent
    maybe (none / 0) (#237)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:45:17 PM EST
    you should read what you are posting to before you start go into rants about my gay bona fides.

    LET ME STATE THIS ONE LAST TIME
    i didn't bring up Hillary's stance on gay issues.  I was talking about her stance on gay issues.  So really i don't care what you think of it.

    As for the record the Clinton's you can still get fired for being gay, in most places, they did nothing about that.   Oh and news flash you can still get attacked for being gay, the Clintons didn't end that either.

    As for aids, it isn't a gay issues because it was treated like one and spread to other demographic groups.

    I never made the claim i spoke for the gay community. Your Hillary worshipper friend was lecturing me on, gay issues, though i wasn't talking about anyones record.

    Your fellow Hillary lover, is using anti-gay slurs, and you are so moved you are lecturing me on how many friends died of aids, for pointing out.  GET OVER YOURSELF and learn to read what you are responding to.

    Parent

    alone in the crowd (none / 0) (#239)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:59:58 PM EST
    but respecting the fact that she was alone in the crowd, taking political hits for supporting the gay community

    Because Barney Frank wasn't there, nope no one was in favor of gay rights but her?  give me a break.  you people take criticism(not insults) of her so personally yet think it is ok to call her opponent homophobic names.  

    so you got beat up and your six friends died of aids so stellaaa could call Barack Obama an homophobic name.  Because if you read back, that is what you are arguing with me about.

    but hey she supports queen Hillary, so win at all costs.

    Parent

    I do not share (none / 0) (#231)
    by Judith on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:24:01 PM EST
    your sensitivity to the word "punk".  It has never enetered my lexicon as anything to do with gay people - neither as noun nor verb - so I think you are being silly and I dont want to be involved.

    Keep your ire for real homopohobes and dont waste your ammo shooting at friends.

    Parent

    Krypto meanings... (none / 0) (#201)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:57:36 PM EST
    So, what is your point? I am a racist cause I said Punk? I am a homophobic cause I said Punk? Go ahead believe that and don't talk to me.

    Parent
    no (none / 0) (#204)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:04:12 PM EST
    i hope that you didn't realize the homophobic undertones of calling someone a punk, but if you stand by it after you see the definition then I don't what to think of you.

    Do you honestly not understand why it isn't cosher to imply that a black man is a

    a usually petty gangster, hoodlum, or ruffian

    do you have that poor an understanding of racial stereo types?

    Parent

    I will not list my (none / 0) (#207)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:10:27 PM EST
    bona fides to you.

    Parent
    I didn't ask (none / 0) (#212)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:23:24 PM EST
    for you bona fides, i don't care.

    I do hope that in the future you will refrain from calling people "punks."

    Parent

    Are you the (none / 0) (#217)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:43:54 PM EST
    village "scolder". If you are can you show me your badge?

    Parent
    are you 12? (none / 0) (#219)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:56:46 PM EST
    thats how words like that (none / 0) (#197)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:36:50 PM EST
    you have to take the entire meaning

    b: a usually petty gangster, hoodlum, or ruffian cslang : a young man used as a homosexual partner especially in a prison


    Parent
    jgarza, you argued with me last night (none / 0) (#234)
    by hellothere on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:32:29 PM EST
    till it became nonsensical in my view. instead of yes you did and no you didn't, might i be bold enough to recommend that maybe you need to do some research on hillary with a view in mind of looking for something positivie. i am doing that for obama.

    Parent
    I think this is frankly a little reductive (4.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Xenocrypt on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:55:09 AM EST
    There's no denying that substantial portions of the media don't like the Clintons, and apparently more than a few influential and powerful members of Congress are willing to endorse her opponent.  But Hillary still has a substantial lead in superdelegates, doesn't she? What are they if not the establishment? (and since she has a substantial lead among members of congress, also the D.C. establishment: http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/01/superdelegate-list.html).  Then, of course, you could make the argument that anyone who's president for eight years basically becomes the establishment, at least the establishment of their party, whether David Broder likes him or not.  (I mean, what's Rahm Emanuel? Not that he's endorsed, I think, in the odd position of a Chicago Clintonite...or Terry Mcauliffe? A revolutionary?  Evan Bayh?  Dianne Feinstein? ). The phenomenon you reference is real, but I think you're leaving a lot out, because of your distaste for Obama, and while I don't expect or even wish for that distaste to change, I wish you wouldn't.  Isn't it possible that there's more than one "establishment candidate"?  

    You could argue whatever you like (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:59:33 AM EST
    but it does not make it true.

    I believe it is clear that Obama is the Establishment candidate.

    You are of course free to form a different opinion.

    Parent

    Why reply? (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Xenocrypt on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:01:46 AM EST
    If you're not going to address what I said in any substantive way?  

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:09:43 AM EST
    I think that my point was a response - to wit, you can argue anything.

    You have presented an argument for why Clinton is ALSO an Establishment candidate.

    I demur on responding to it as I think it does not carry much weight as a response to my post.

    To wit, you have not addressed my arguments. I did not think there was much need to respond to your argument.

    It stands or falls on its own weight. Obviously I do not think it has much weight.

    Parent

    I addressed what you said (none / 0) (#50)
    by Xenocrypt on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:18:35 AM EST
    I said it was reductive, not wrong, and I said that the phenomenon you cited was real, but you left a lot out.  You are saying that Obama is the establishment candidate, not an establishment candidate, and therefore an argument that Clinton is also an establishment candidate constitutes a response to your argument.  If all you're going to do is glibly dismiss me by assertion, I don't expect to bother to comment here again, and frankly, I don't know why anyone else would.  

    Parent
    Reducitve, not wrong? (none / 0) (#59)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:23:41 AM EST
    Obama Is the candidate of the Establisment in Washington.

    That is my thesis. There is a Clinton Establsiuhment of course. But that is irrelevant to whom THE DC Establishment is backing.

    As for whether you want to comment here or not, that is up to you.

    But there is no  pledge of getting the type of comment response you seem to demand.
     

    Parent

    What I expect, or at least hope (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Xenocrypt on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:35:28 AM EST
    Is for people with different points of view to be treated respectfully, not with "well obviously I thought you were wrong", and that they don't need to post two replies before they get anything that approaches a substantive response.  (again, you could have just not replied in the first place).  And yes, reductive is different from wrong.  I'm not going to get into an endless argument about whether or not so-and-so is or is not part of "THE DC Establishment", however you're defining that, because while your site is successful, and therefore I don't expect you to re-evaluate any of your m.o., it is clear to me that this is no way to treat people who bother to write a modulated, citation-including comment.  See ya.    

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#80)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:44:20 AM EST
    I tell you what, I'll leave you be.

    I doubt my commenting style will ever please you.

    Please enjoy the other parts of the site. I promise to leave you be.

    Parent

    Sexism is the vehicle of our defeat (5.00 / 1) (#210)
    by lily15 on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:18:38 PM EST
    This is not about only the primaries. It is telling that this liberal elite philosophy to which I refer, as practiced by its proponents, is comfortable in soft bromides and intellectual mumbo jumbo that does not stand the test of logical empiricism or evidentiary substance .

    But by engaging in this horrid sexism, this hysteric elite are polluting the general environment of politics in general and this election in particular. They are branding one of their own in the most despicable and false terms.  More critically, they are enabling a subversive Republican game plan.

    Women are in a position to  influence the outcome of this election and express their power as both a desire to change politics and a desire to make history. It would be a profound symbol of an emerging female power center to have a female President,one that none of us have ever known because Hillary is the most accomplished and aggressive version of a female in politics. In fact, the stoning of Hillary is precisely why most women would avoid such high elective office.  It is an environment that is unfair and supremely hostile. To withstand it, a woman must exhibit qualities  of fire and stone...not something women are schooled in.  They must become comfortable with direct combat and warfare on a scale previously unknown.  Republicans know this. They know Republican women might cross over. So they must slay her from within her own camp.  To the extent liberal and progressives are complicit in this witch hunt is the extent to which we will win or lose the general.

     Therefore, Obama's candidacy is more of a Trojan Horse for Democrats rather than an RFK insurgency.(Comparing Obama to RFK is a joke if one has an ounce of intellectual honesty)  If he wins the nomination, he will in all likelihood lose the general.  But even if Hillary wins the nomination, she has been seriously wounded by her own compatriots. For what?

     Hollow rhetoric  makes liberals feel good about themselves. This inane vanity is what is fueling Obama.  But it's secondary message is the threat of Hillary or any woman like her.   Just as females were burned at the stake as witches, Hillary is the sacrificial witch for both the profoundly conservative and the profoundly progressive.  I read both  the progressive and conservative blogs.  The similarity in the language of derision as directed at Hillary by opposing ideologies should be a clue as to how far astray these progressives have wandered. But they are shooting one of their own genuine leaders instead of uniting behind her.  And the sane among us must determine what this virus is that they have succumbed to, and why.  At the same time, we must ensure that this evil narrative about her does not take hold.  Keep in mind, the working class element of the Democratic party,women and Latinos are solidly behind her and ready for battle.  So what is it about progressive elites and their young followers that would doom one of their own?  Are there double agents among us?  Or has brainwashing occurred?  We are witnessing cult like behavior among the elite. So where are the rehab centers?  

     

    Parent

    Kos, the blowhard, laughs at Romney:Rome burns (2.00 / 1) (#183)
    by lily15 on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:09:05 PM EST
    A good example of the stupid strain of the Democratic party is exemplified by Markos at DailyKos who urged Democrats to cross party lines to support Romney and keep him in the running for President.  This typical example of sexism in the progressive movement exhibits a remarkable blind spot in his preening and self righteous pronouncements.

    Not only has he supported Obama,savaged Hillary and lauded himself, but he has laughed at the candidacy of Mitt Romney. Only a fool could urge Democrats to keep Romney in the running and preserve the lethal snake that is Romney as a Republican nominee and threat. Only vanity could prompt a sane person to dismiss an attractive, rich, cunning and determined candidate who has a capacity for metamorphosis that mirrors the cynical hypocrisy of the party he represents. Only a moron could glibly diss a formidable force(backed by the Bush cartel) that if realized, would be a death sentence for progressive causes and a balanced Supreme Court. Has anyone forgotten how quickly narrative can change, especially when backed by the full force of the media and the dirty Republican machine?

    Unfortunately, it is this type of overly sure, hypocritical ass who rolls his eyes at sexism and attacks Hillary with the same ferocity as he attacks Republicans.  It is this type of overly confident Democrat who must have laughed at Ronald Reagan.  It is this type of progressive sexist male we must confront to save the country from the conservative movement and the  Republicans who promote and implement it. Naturally, I hope the strong and determined non sexist men in our progressive movement will also make their voices heard.(hat tip Eriposte at theleftcoaster.com)  We must work  together aggressively to silence the forces of defeat.

      Sexist and tone deaf imbeciles without common sense come in all shapes and sizes and ideologies. They have a particular history of dooming Democrats.  When they put equal energy into demonizing Hillary and Bill Clinton as they do in laughing at a Mitt Romney (clearly a determined and successful man by most measures..), defeat is around the corner.

     Markos' sexist progressive screed along with the other progressives who echo it, coupled with a mind boggling intellectual dishonesty, do more to cloud our judgment about Mitt Romney than prepare us for the actual danger. (remember how shocked Markos was when those two special congressional elections he determined were competitive turned out to be Republican runaways?) We ignore the perils that we face and the pooh poohing by liberal elites and progressive blowhards, at our peril.

    Of course, I could be wrong. We all passionately want Republicans sent to the graveyards of politics.  But I remind all not to discount or forget history and instead use common sense before
    downing Camelot bromides in the face of a violent, deceitful,  21st century political mafia.  

    In the meantime (none / 0) (#185)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:14:05 PM EST
    the Dems i Michigan were telling people to vote for Clinton or uncommited, cause they were trying to get the delegates seated. This is what I call the Dungeons and Dragons mentality morphing into politics as a fantasy game. That is why I love this site. No sophistry.

    Parent
    OT, but important developing news: (1.00 / 1) (#105)
    by MarkL on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:05:15 AM EST
    Read this
    to see photos of the Obama/Rezko property.
    MSNBC did a story on this, with photos.
    There's simply no way to deny that Rezko did a $1 million favor for Obama. The purchase of the strip  of land, later, was only to put in a fence, to make it appear that the Rezko's property was separate.
    I don't know if anything illegal occurred, but taking a favor of that size from a mobbed up slumlord is clear evidence of something worse than simple bad judgment.

    The land deal ALONE should disqualify Obama.
    Get some sense, people---this story is only going to get worse for Obama.

    This diary explains the strip purchase (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by MarkL on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:35:30 AM EST
    which has mystified me, because Obama made that deal when Rezko was already in trouble.
    Obama needed to fence off the Rezko piece, which he could not do with Rezko owning his DRIVEWAY!
    Are you ready to call Obama a crook?
    I'm ready to convene a Grand Blog Jury, myself.

    Parent
    What newly disclosed info are you (none / 0) (#123)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:38:01 AM EST
    relying on.  Link doesn't work.  

    Parent
    Does this one work? (none / 0) (#126)
    by MarkL on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:43:01 AM EST
    Yes. Thanks. (none / 0) (#128)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:48:12 AM EST
    Feeding my Rezko obsession (none / 0) (#130)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:50:31 AM EST
    Yeah..like I was saying. How did Obama not benefit folks? I used to work for Diane Fienstein when she was mayor for a bit and the ethics rules are simple, if you cannot eat it, you cannot take it. Again, I know this gets people mad, but it's a mini Duke. No contracts etc, but it's the little stuff. Not saying anything when his properties went into foreclosure and hundreds of poor AA people lost their housing. This just does not pass any smell test.

    Parent
    okay (5.00 / 0) (#156)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:20:02 AM EST
    considering me back on the Rezko train.  This is absolutely preposterous.  That is not a vacant lot.  That is a YARD.  I wish someone would track down the seller, or realtor, or whomever, and see exactly what is going on here.  Absolutely incredible.  Even the secret service knows it's Obama's defacto property.

    Parent
    The sellers supposedly will not talk. (5.00 / 0) (#180)
    by BeBe on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:04:14 PM EST
    I kept wondering why no one in the press would ask questions. The lot and house are contiguous. The asking price for the house included the lot and the seller did not want to sell separately probably because of the hassle. So the total price on the house included the entire property but Sen Obama wanted the house without the yard because it was too expensive. Rezko comes in and buys the lot for however much at the same transaction that Sen Obama buys the house. Questions about the total price plus the value of the house and yard/lot separately need to be examined. Also what would the lot sell for, and what would the lot sell for with part of it sliced off for the house. If the seller sold the house cheap and the lot high then there is a very serious problem as Rezko subsidized the house for Sen Obama. Tax appraisals would answer a lot of the questions.

    Parent
    Seller worked with Michelle (none / 0) (#182)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:07:42 PM EST
    in the Hospital.

    Parent
    This is what I mean about not enough info (none / 0) (#203)
    by BeBe on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:03:47 PM EST
    This should be made part of the story to explain the transaction. Complicated real estate transactions happen every day but with a presidential candidate they have to be explained. I hope Sen Obama gets out in front of this because the longer it takes the worse it looks.

    Parent
    on the lot (5.00 / 0) (#222)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:40:06 PM EST
    if the seller won't talk, how about the realtor?  Barring that, there should be a plat somewhere that shows the property lines.  Also, what about zoning?  Is that a buildable lot?  What were lots selling for in the area?

    So many questions, so few willing to answer.

    Parent

    Do you think there could be a crime? (none / 0) (#133)
    by MarkL on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:51:58 AM EST
    I think so (none / 0) (#149)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:07:17 AM EST
    but...in Chicago it's small fry. Look, most political and white collar crime the criminal says: "It was bad judgement" and they are off the hook. Only problem is that poor people don't get the "bad judgement" card.

    Parent
    OT (none / 0) (#134)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:52:54 AM EST
    I'll make an Open Thread where this can be discussed.

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#135)
    by MarkL on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:53:44 AM EST
    Hmm, was the driveway already there? (none / 0) (#143)
    by Cream City on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:58:37 AM EST
    Then it would be more evidence that it really was one land parcel, as the previous owner of the lots said in requiring that it all be sold at once.  ("Lots" are different -- many homes today are on what originally were two or three lots in this part of the country, owing to small original lot sizes.)

    Imagine trying to sell such a house without a driveway -- then or when the two Obamas do so.

    Parent

    To prove it.. (none / 0) (#1)
    by TheRealFrank on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:19:06 AM EST
    The Washington Post has 6 (!) anti-Clinton opinion pieces (one of them a cartoon) listed on their web front page, under the title "Clinton on Parade".

    One piece is only mildly anti-Clinton, and gets in some decent points.

    But the obsession is unbelievable.

    (yes, I do count the Washington Post as being part of the DC elite)

    Of course (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:32:03 AM EST
    Those are the folks (none / 0) (#2)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:19:46 AM EST
    Those are the folks that worked the closest with the Clintons.  What is it about the Clintons that inspires "HATE" (your word) in those they have worked with?  More to the point, will "HATE" from those they need to work in their own party if elected make for better government?  Not likely.

    DC Hates The Clintons (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:31:41 AM EST
    Republicans Hate The clintons.

    The Media Hates the Clintons.

    As a Democrat, I do not see how that should bother me as a Democrat.  


    Parent

    I imagine ... (none / 0) (#68)
    by robrecht on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:32:20 AM EST
    ... AAA was talking about even former Clinton staffers, some of whom feel betrayed by the lies and stupidity of the Lewinsky affair.

    Parent
    which would explain why so many former Clintonites (none / 0) (#97)
    by byteb on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:58:24 AM EST
    are working on Obama's campaign.

    Parent
    The fact that (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Lena on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:16:57 AM EST
    the Washington establishment hates the Clintons honestly doesn't make me question the Clintons' character.

    They also love Bush, or at least they did for 9/10 of his presidency until the utter devestation he had inflicted on our government was undeniable.

    Now that I think of it, if the people who love G.W. Bush hate the Clintons so much, isn't that a point in the Clintons' favor?

    Parent

    WaPo's Broder on Clinton (none / 0) (#9)
    by Nasarius on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:39:32 AM EST
    "He came in here and he trashed the place. And it's not his place."

    The Washington press corps doesn't hate Clinton because they know him so well. Otherwise, what would that say about their continuing love of Bush?

    Parent

    Oh, puh-lease (none / 0) (#7)
    by SeeEmDee on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:33:56 AM EST
    Obama is no more an 'outsider' than Hillary. Both are members of the elite Council on Foreign Relations, the 'private club' of the de facto string-pullers. (Needless to say, Georgie and his coterie are also members.)

    American politics are little more than Punch-and-Judy for adults, with one puppet-master pulling the strings on two 'opponents'. The agenda, however, never changes...

    Actually the Clintons (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:44:03 AM EST
    are pretty clearly outsiders imo.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:34:33 AM EST
    They came in from Arkansas, Bill has more political talent than any other politician in D.C., he has a smart and accomplished wife, and they didn't give two crap about holding dinner parties with Sally Quinn.  And it's that last one that they really hated the Clinton for, how dare they come to D.C. and eat pizza with their friends.  Didn't they want to hear all the great advice the Village has to offer, especially since the Village had spent the campaign season calling Bill Clinton a corrupt womanizer?

    Remember that piece a couple of months ago where Tim Russert's wife was still complaining about the Clintons' horrible lack of cocktail parties?

    Obama, OTOH, clearly wants to be one of them.  He constantly uses their framing ("social security crisis") and their history (Reagan the optimist and the Republicans were the party of ideas).  More than that, he's selling their dream - that the parties can come together in some sort of unity, which will inevitably lead to everyone listening to David Broder and restore the proper place in the world of the Washington Post editorial page.  And he does so in a way that appears to hold Democrats as responsible as Republicans for the divisive last eight years, letting their cocktail R buddies and the Washington press corps off the hook.   Finally, to top it all off, he's African American and so they can pat themselves on the back for being soooo inclusive and feel good about supporting him and not guilty about the sexism and misogyny aimed at Clinton.  They don't even have to acknowledge that Clinton would make history at all.  Electing her would be the "past".

    I should make clear that none of this has anything to do with Obama.  The only thing I blame Obama for is that he is using the  media's CDS as a key part of his campaign.  I hate that.  Mostly because the media is one of the main causes that we're in this mess AND because his embrace of the Village almost guarantees that he'll get nothing done as president.  You can't promise to change the system while sucking up to David Broder and expect to succeed in changing the system.

    Parent

    I think affter two terms in the Senate, Hillary (none / 0) (#110)
    by byteb on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:16:22 AM EST
    had become of the DC Establishment. She was respected by Democrats and Republicans alike in Congress. I think Bill Clinton had been embraced by the DC establishment after his Presidency due to his disaster relief work with Poppy Bush.

    Even after she began her run for the Democratic nominee, she was still part of the pack. She was viewed as "inevitable". But I think when Bill Clinton came back on the campaign trail, abandoning his role as pater familius of the country and starting acting like the infamous Bill of old, all the old memories and dislike rose the service and it's back to the 90's again with the Clintons no longer part of the In Crowd.

    Parent

    You don't understand who the elite are (5.00 / 0) (#218)
    by BernieO on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:49:55 PM EST
    For the most part, they are not people in Congress. They are the people who get invited to Sally Quinn's and her hubby Ben Bradlee's cocktail parties. A lot of them are inside the beltway pundits, journalists and lobbyists like Cokie and Steve Robers, Cokie's lobbyist brother, Tim Russert and his wife Maureen Orth, and David Broder. This is a social, not political group. It is an insiders "club" and is very powerful in influencing inside-the-beltway spin.

    Parent
    And there was Ted Kennedy (none / 0) (#8)
    by masslib on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:34:03 AM EST
    today, making his rounds, reducing Hillary to a mere appendage of her husband.  What an ass.

    Ted and Patrick Kennedy. . . (4.66 / 3) (#10)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:41:27 AM EST
    striking their blow against political dynasties!

    Parent
    And taking us back to the future (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:43:38 AM EST
    the glory days of the 60s?

    There is so much irony in this that it is impossible to write about all of it.

    Parent

    Re: (none / 0) (#41)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:12:15 AM EST
    Ted Kennedy is a great liberal but his record at backing political winners is kinda sad.  As we see from Russ Feingold and Dennis Kucinich, there's not necessarily a correlation between being a strong progressive and knowing how to build a progressive movement.

    I'm told Ted Kennedy's name is still poison in Georgia - even among Democrats - because of what he did in 1980.

    Parent

    It is in my parents house (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:17:14 AM EST
    Ted just convinced my parents to vote for Hillary.

    Parent
    Your parents are from Georgia? (none / 0) (#86)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:48:59 AM EST
    My dad was upset by the Kennedy endorsement but it was more like "it's not right for him to take sides so early."

    It must be annoying that this endorsement has caused the media to dust off all their tropes about how Latinos spend every day clutching their rosaries in front of a picture of JFK.

    Although, it's kind of neat that the campaign which transcends race is now sending out Ted Kennedy to round up the Latino vote.

    Parent

    Florida (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:34:18 AM EST
    Voting today.

    They hate the Clintons.

    But they hate the Kennedys more.

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#125)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:42:30 AM EST
    It's noteworthy that Florida, the big state that doesn't count for anything, has like every pro-Hillary demographic you could wish for (old people, Latinos, etc).  I have no idea if it's just a coincidence but some of the Clinton people mutter about pro-Obama folks like Donna Brazile at the DNC pushing the draconian sanction, so who knows.

    Parent
    Kind Of Ridiculous IMO (none / 0) (#109)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:15:06 AM EST
    while yelling loudly about racism, in the next breath they sterotype Latinos. Sort of like the Clintons don't respect people because they visit Latinos in their living rooms. Meanwhile, Obama visits Latinos in their backyard. Better media coverage that way.

    Parent
    Absolutely (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:40:46 AM EST
    The only reason Ted Kennedy isn't more hated for 1980 is that the press hated the Carters almost as much as it hates the Clintons and so it doesn't remind the Democrats that one of the reasons Bill Clinton was the only elected two-term democrat since FDR is...Ted Kennedy.  Well that and the fact that democrats, like Obama, have decided to swallow the "America sucked and then Reagan came along and made everyone feel good" B.S. that the media has been selling for 25 years to absolve themselves of their Carter hatred.   Just as they've embraced Obama, in part, to absolve themselves for their Clinton/Gore hatred and what it has wrought.

    (For a history lesson, here's Krugman pointing out that the Carter economy had about the same level of growth as Reagan's.  Carter just got his recession at the end, Reagan at the beginning.)


    Parent

    Yeah! (none / 0) (#18)
    by TheRealFrank on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:48:25 AM EST
    Stop fighting the battles of the past!

    No more dynasties!

    It's time for a new sound in DC!

    And here campaigning with me to prove that is..

    Ted Kennedy?

    Seriously though, I've seen Kennedy speak on tv a few times, and he's just not a good speaker. Quite a contrast with Obama, who is obviously a good speaker (in prepared speeches, certainly).

    All the media attention was definitely good for the Obama campaign, but I can't see Kennedy being of help at further events. I guess Kennedy needs to deliver his "Obama is just like my brother lines".

    Parent

    He's 76 (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:52:38 AM EST
    He used to be a very good speaker.

    Disclosure - I love Ted Kennedy

    Parent

    agreed and more (none / 0) (#39)
    by white n az on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:11:13 AM EST
    He was a great speaker and probably can summon up enough lucid moments to deliver an excellent oratory today.

    More importantly, Kennedy legitimizes Obama's candidacy and embraces the youth and disaffected voters that Obama brings in and probably will help keep them invested even if Obama doesn't win the nomination. It's ultimately a win-win entry.

    Curiously, some MSM (MSNBC) makes no mention whatsoever of the children of Bobby Kennedy supporting Hillary while CNN has acknowledged their endorsements. I think it's pretty clear that MSNBC is not to be counted on to cast a favorable light towards Hillary's candidacy.

    Parent

    NBC (none / 0) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:15:54 AM EST
    is the anti-Hillary candidate.

    Parent
    Nonetheless. . . (none / 0) (#29)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:00:45 AM EST
    a fantastic "get" for Obama.

    Parent
    Obama is a good speaker (none / 0) (#44)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:15:05 AM EST
    He reads a teleprompter well.

    JFK didn't have a teleprompter.
    MLK didn't have a teleprompter.

    Establishmen?  Oh,  yeah.

    Parent

    Do you have a link? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:45:24 AM EST
    IT sounds sexist to me.

    Parent
    Oh, I'm exaggerating... (5.00 / 0) (#20)
    by masslib on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:52:31 AM EST
    But when discussing her, he talked only about "the Clintons".  That sort of thing really pisses me off.  

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:53:36 AM EST
    then I am pissing you off.

    Parent
    Teddy use the ammo Bill gave him. (none / 0) (#79)
    by byteb on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:44:10 AM EST
    If anyone has reduced Hillary to an appendage, it's Bill Clinton.

    Parent
    Change in the abstract. . . (none / 0) (#13)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:45:22 AM EST
    is what Obama's selling, and it's always, always, always in fashion politically.  Everybody wants change and everybody runs in it, including 75 term incumbents.

    Obama has managed to completely and convincingly assume the mantle of change.  Of course, he's vague enough to allow everyone to assume the change he represents is the change they themselves want.  It's a privilege to be able to watch a politician of his caliber operate.

    I only hope that, if elected, he also has the (somewhat orthogonal) skills to govern.

    disagree (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:46:04 AM EST
    the Establishment likes Unity.

    Broder is the spokesman.

    Parent

    No disagreement. . . (none / 0) (#24)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:55:42 AM EST
    that's my point about Obama's change vagueness.  Everyone's united around the proposition that change is good, as long as we all (implicitly) understand that it's my change that we're talking about, not necessarily yours.

    That position is electoral gold, although it really sets you up to disappoint a lot of people if you actually have to govern.

    Parent

    But will he disappoint Broder? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:00:51 AM EST
    The $64 question.

    The Obama cult will never be disappointed with him ever.

    Parent

    Check out my comment. . . (none / 0) (#34)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:03:37 AM EST
    in your "Media Darling" post of yesterday or the day before (it begins with "I hate this analysis").  This echos what I wrote there.

    Parent
    OT funny story (none / 0) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:14:55 AM EST
    My parents are registered Dems, even though they are reallly Republicans, but Ted Kennedy convinvced them to vote for HILLARY!

    Cubans hate the Kennedys. Bay of Pigs.

    Parent

    Bay of Pigs? (none / 0) (#57)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:22:20 AM EST
    You mean, because they botched it?  Or because they tried it in the first place?

    Parent
    Clearly (none / 0) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:30:11 AM EST
    you know nothing about Cuban American politics.

    JFK betrayed the Cubana "patriots" by pulling air cover off of the landing. OR so I was raised to believe.

    Parent

    I know enough. . . (none / 0) (#73)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:39:47 AM EST
    to wonder why ostensibly anti-Castro Cubans would despise the Kennedys for the Bay of Pigs.  I didn't realize there was an element of "no good act goes unpunished" in it.

    Recently I've seen this factor in Democratic politics in two ways: gays blaming the Clintons personally for the backlash from their ahead-of-the-curve attempts to integrate the army vis-a-vis gay service personnel and liberals blaming Spitzer for trying, and failing, to get drivers licenses for illegal immigrants.

    Frankly, if I were a politician I'd never do anything for anybody since the obvious result of trying and failing is being slammed by the very people you were trying to help.

    Parent

    You seek rationality in politics (none / 0) (#88)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:50:21 AM EST
    A fools' errand.

    Parent
    My question. . . (none / 0) (#99)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:00:23 AM EST
    is this primarily a liberal, or Democratic, phenomenon?  It seems to me that the Republicans held their coalition together for thirty years or so on the principal that the various factions were getting incrementally closer to their goals even if they lost individual battles.

    If the Democratic coalition will fracture after every lost battle then the playing field seems substantially tilted to the Republicans.

    Parent

    There was a segment of one of the news' (none / 0) (#74)
    by byteb on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:39:51 AM EST
    stations (I can't remember which one) about Cuban Americans in Miami and their deep dislike of the Democrats b/c JFK and the Cuban Missile Crisis. They also showed a Cuban American Democratic headquarters w/a woman vehemently saying that no one should doubt her loyalty b/c she is a Democrat. The Democrats are trying to make some small headway in the Cuban American communities for the general.

    Parent
    and Elian Gonzalez has also (none / 0) (#84)
    by byteb on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:47:23 AM EST
    added to the anger that Cuban Americans have towards Democrats.

    Parent
    Patrick Symmes agrees with (none / 0) (#78)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:44:01 AM EST
    that.  He's the author of The Boys of Delores, about the schoolmates of the Castro bros.  

    BTW:  do Cubans in the U.S. have photos of Pope Paul II next to JFK in their homes?  Yesterday "some people" sd. this was true of Latino homes in the U.S.

    Parent

    I believe that's true (none / 0) (#89)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:50:47 AM EST
    From what I've read, the plan was drawn up under Eisenhower and JFK sort of gave it a half-hearted go-ahead.

    I wonder if we've learned any lesson from that era about what happens when you mindlessly follow the foreign policy suggestions of your predecessor in office...

    Parent

    I thought I remembered you saying (none / 0) (#66)
    by andgarden on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:32:06 AM EST
    they were Republicans.

    I think when someone writes a modern history of the Democratic party, Kennedy's 1980 run will have some real significance. I must say that I've always been very uncomfortable with Jimmy Carter.

    Parent

    Would Be Nice If The Cubans Who Normally (none / 0) (#67)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:32:17 AM EST
    vote Republican reacted  in the same way to Kennedy's endoresement as your parents.

    Parent
    Hillary does very well in FL head-to-heads (none / 0) (#72)
    by andgarden on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:39:17 AM EST
    oh reality catches up with (none / 0) (#37)
    by hellothere on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:08:39 AM EST
    everyone and the obama groupies will be the very first to turn on obama. let him govern and not pay attention to them. that will do it.

    Parent
    Re: (none / 0) (#42)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:14:49 AM EST
    The moment Obama takes on the Republicans directly (and surely he will, he can't possibly believe all his own schtick) the Broderites will lament how tragic it is that Obama has abandoned his positive campaign message of unity and bipartisanship.  They'll probably find some way to blame the Clintons for it too.

    One of the main problems with the bipartisan schtick, and everyone right up to Nancy Pelosi does it, is that it takes two to tango, and if the other guy won't dance then it winds up as your own fault for having promised "bipartisan solutions" and not delivering.

    Parent

    Yep (none / 0) (#64)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:28:57 AM EST
    But he has to do it no?


    Parent
    They Will Make Him Do It (none / 0) (#81)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:46:39 AM EST
    It will start with the campaign.  Then, it will continue with the filibusters.  

    The question is - having sold himself as the person who can bring unity, when that doesn't happen will the media and voters blame the Republicans or Obama?    What if some Dems cross over (they always do, Ben Nelson).  Speaking of Ben Nelson, what are all these Senators supporting Obama because of his bipartisan talk going to say when they don't get their unity pony?

    Parent

    Change in the abstract (none / 0) (#45)
    by BeBe on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:15:25 AM EST
    It is an elitist mantra. Only the educated and smart and connected can understand. It is one of the most insulting and dismissive campaigns that I have ever witnessed. The little people do not understand and why do they want all of these details. They cannot possibly understand the great thoughts that Sen Obama has because he went to Harvard. Well so did Alberto Gonzales. The poor and the screwed want details which Sen Obama does not have because his backers haven't given them to him yet.

    Parent
    "Pantsuit" (none / 0) (#60)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:23:48 AM EST
    I often hear "shrill b*tch in a pantsuit" comments from the anti-Hillary crowd.

    I only thank God that she doesn't wear a skirt, they'd be calling her a "skirt".

    <snark>I thank God too, that there is no sexism in this country, although plenty of racism.

    Daschle (none / 0) (#61)
    by eric on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:24:22 AM EST
    In related news, I read that Tom Daschle is in Minnesota today campaigning for Obama!

    Tom freaking Daschle.  Yes, it is pretty clear that Obama is the official candidate of the establishment of the Democratic party.

    As for me, I am off to see John Edwards at a union hall later tonight.

    Daschle is the loser part of the Democratic party (none / 0) (#216)
    by lily15 on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:36:51 PM EST
    Daschle...a milquetoast with Bush and the Republicans..and destroyed by them with no concern for his seniority and establishment cred...Kerry, another weak elite with visions of ascendance...Kennedy, a liberal of the old school who couldn't do what Dodd did and actually fight for the Constitution like a warrior. (which is not to demean his accomplishments..but maybe some are overstated...because I don't recall him filibustering with the passion and committment of Dodd)

    Parent
    Disagree with your entire premise (none / 0) (#69)
    by kid oakland on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:33:57 AM EST
    in 2002 one candidate was a state legislator speaking at an ANSWR rally in Chicago where he said:

    [Saddam's] a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

    But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

    I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.

    I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars.

    The other candidate, Senator Clinton, opposed the Levin Amendment and supported the AUMF.

    As Ezra Klein wrote:

    The issue isn't the issue -- about which Obama was correct -- it's his consistency on the issue. Barack Obama was right on Iraq, and Hillary Clinton was wrong. Obama could have made a couple more speeches, but there really wasn't much he could do to divert the course of the war as a lone Senator. By contrast, there was very much Hillary Clinton, and her husband, could have done to divert the war -- and all it would have taken was exactly what Obama did. A prescient, fiercely oppositional speech during the run-up to the invasion. Nor has Clinton, who routinely promises to end the war once in office, exercised political leadership in the Senate, using either her media power or parliamentary pull to sustain a brave stand against the conflict. Instead, she has spoken of her desire to end it and, in reality, gone along with the cowed, ineffectual approach of the Senate Democrats: Register opposition, vote against bills, eventually pass spending measures that continue the war.

    That Senator Clinton is the establishment candidate is without doubt. Why would you suggest otherwise?

    To argue that she isn't, in my view, is an intellectual fig leaf that gives Clinton an excuse for her fundamental lack of leadership and judgment on the war in Iraq...from her AUMF vote to the present day.

    That's what this debate is really about.

    To frame Clinton as a "victim" and an "outsider" is to create a Senator Clinton who is not accountable for anything, not the war, and not the conduct of her own campaign. It is also, on some fundamental level, imo, pandering and intellectually dishonest.

    You ignored my premise (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:42:24 AM EST
    Which is that the Washington Elite are anti-Hillary and prefer Obama.

    Your comment is a nonsequitor.

    Parent

    The premise of your entire post is (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by kid oakland on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:58:23 AM EST
    a) malarky

    b) intellectually dishonest.

    You are creating a "victim frame" for the Clintons.

    It doesn't matter one whit what the D.C. Elite thought about Senator Clinton. She and her husband, as Ezra Klein notes, were two Americans who could have shown leadership in the lead up to the war in Iraq and did not. She could have shown leadership since that time, but has not. That they failed to lead has absolutely nothing to do with what folks in Georgetown think of Hillary and Bill and everything to do with political choices that Senator Clinton made.

    Why do you advance the "victim" / "outsider" frame for a candidate who served as First Lady and is a twice-elected Senator from New York? (That argument is inconceivable anywhere else in the world outside "the blogs." It's laughable.)

    I think the answer is clear.

    Victims aren't accountable, they get a free pass.

    And, yes, in the midst of a campaign for the presidency, where we are talking about leadership, that's intellectually dishonest and pandering. It's also a hint to readers who are wondering what to expect if Clinton is elected President.

    If you have a disagreement with Senator Clinton it will be the fault of the press. It will be the media elite's fault.

    That's not leadership.

    Parent

    Re: (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:03:16 AM EST
    Yes, the media is against Hillary because she didn't oppose the war.  Good observation.

    Parent
    Nah (none / 0) (#136)
    by kid oakland on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:53:49 AM EST
    I'm saying that calling her an "anti establishment" victim is not simply ludicrous but absolving her of accountability for her actions and undermining the main argument for her candidacy: her ability to lead.

    I'm fine if you disagree. But it's arguments like the one BTD's making that lose elections. The undercurrent is "blame someone else."

    There are some pretty cogent reasons that the Clintons have only themselves to blame that they didn't get the Kennedy endorsement.

    Accountability, it comes with leadership.

    Parent

    Except. . . (5.00 / 3) (#140)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:57:05 AM EST
    I'm saying that calling her an "anti establishment" victim is not simply ludicrous

    BTD did not say that Clinton is the "anti-establishment" candidate.  He said:

    1. Obama is an establishment candidate (which is pretty clearly true)

    and.

    2. The Washington Media hates the Clintons and always has (which is also pretty clearly true).

    Parent

    Can you actually address WHAT I WROTE? (none / 0) (#139)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:55:56 AM EST
    Another nonsequitor post (5.00 / 5) (#106)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:05:43 AM EST
    exposed by this:

    It doesn't matter one whit what the D.C. Elite thought about Senator Clinton.

    It certainly matters when determining who is the favored candidate of the DC Elite.

    You are making a fool of yourself.

    Parent

    More ad hominem (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by kid oakland on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:30:57 AM EST
    which is a shame.

    Let me put it to the readers this way.

    If someone advances a fundamentally dishonest argument, an argument whose premise is misleading, there are two responses you can make.

    A. You can go into the weeds point by point attempting to earnestly counter the misleading argument, which has the effect of accepting the "givens" or

    B. You can make a counter argument that shows the logical fallacy and dishonest premise of the argument overall. That's what I did.

    It's not a non sequitor to point out that BTD is basically undermining the entire premise of the Clinton campaign by creating a victim frame for Senator Clinton and absolving her of the accountability that comes with leadership.

    Just because the media elite have x or y opinion of you doesn't absolve you of the responsibilty to lead.

    If the media elite are so opposed to Bill and Hillary Clinton why do they give Bill Clinton free air time every time he speaks?

    Compare the national press time and coverage of Bill Clinton, Michelle Obama and Elizabeth Edwards.

    If the media elite hate Bill, why are they giving him millions and millions of dollars of free time to advance Senator Clinton's campaign?

    He's a two term ex-president you say?

    Well, yes, and Senator Clinton is the establishment candidate.

    Parent

    You're kidding, right. . . (5.00 / 3) (#137)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:54:54 AM EST
    If the media elite are so opposed to Bill and Hillary Clinton why do they give Bill Clinton free air time every time he speaks?

    Every Osama bin Laden release is covered -- are you suggesting the media is objectively pro-Osama?

    And when the media was Clinton 24 / 7 in 1996 that was because they loved him so much?

    Also, BTD's comment is not an ad hominem attack -- it addresses your argument and is a statement of his opinion of the logic it contains.

    Parent

    Even you (none / 0) (#146)
    by kid oakland on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:04:41 AM EST
    noted below that BTD was going too far suggesting Clinton make an "Outsider run against Washington."

    ????

    My point is this, suggesting that the media and party elite "have it out" for the Clintons has one very direct effect, it absolves the Clintons of responsibility.

    The example I used was Senator Clinton's vote for the AUMF, opposition to the Levin Amendment, and continued support for her vote in the 2004 election year when we were trying to defeat Bush. All those things are fresh in my memory.

    Ezra Klein, imo, makes THE cogent point about the Clintons and the war.

    Parent

    There's a difference. . . (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:37:11 AM EST
    between the content of the post -- which is what you originally replied to -- and the speculative content of BTD's comment, posted after your original response.

    The issue of whether Clinton should try to use the obviously skewed media coverage, and how, is quite apart from the issue of whether Obama has become an establishment candidate as laid out in the original post and whether Clinton is disliked by the media.

    He has and she is.

    You seems to be arguing that

    1) Clinton is disliked by the media for good cause (although the reasons you ascribe to the media are, in fact, your own feelings)

    and

    2) if the argument can be made that there's a reason she's disliked by the media that somehow negates the fact that she's disliked by the media and allows you to tag her the "establishment" candidate, avoiding that (to you) apparently distasteful label being applied to Obama.

    Parent

    So you are saying I am right (none / 0) (#147)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:06:21 AM EST
    but it is the Clinton's fault.

    At least that addresses my point.

    Parent

    Nah (none / 0) (#174)
    by kid oakland on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:54:18 AM EST
    I'm simply agreeing with this guy:

    The New York senator is part of a failed Democratic party establishment -- led by her husband -- that enabled the George W. Bush Presidency and the Republican majorities, and all the havoc they have wreaked at home and abroad.


    Parent
    Then you are back to nonsequitors (none / 0) (#184)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:13:51 PM EST
    That statement is wholly unrelated to what  wrote in THIS post.

    Parent
    "his guy" (none / 0) (#192)
    by Judith on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:22:37 PM EST
    is full of it.  Blame the Clintons for Bush?  Ridiculous. Blame it on the lame-ohs who let the GOP slime Kerry with the stupidist cr*p since they slimed Gore.  I saw Markos praise the Clintons duing a discussion on Katrina on Charlie Rose. Frankly he wasnt too impressive then and he certainly isnt now.

    Just my opinion - I know the "shere" adores him

    Parent

    I would (none / 0) (#199)
    by standingup on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:43:14 PM EST
    love to hear you explain Daschle's role in Obama's campaign.  

    Parent
    Ridiculous (none / 0) (#129)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:49:16 AM EST
    Oh no! Another ad hominem.

    Try this schtick somehwere else.

    Parent

    You don't argue my point (none / 0) (#141)
    by kid oakland on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:57:12 AM EST
    which is that your own argument is ludicrous on its face.

    Parent
    You seem not to understand my argument (none / 0) (#144)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:01:09 AM EST
    You want to make a different argument about your own views of why Obama is anti-Establishment.

    Whether I buy your argument or not, it is IRRELEVANT to my own.

    Parent

    Cause (none / 0) (#142)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:58:19 AM EST
    Obama his locked up by Axelrod to never speak to the press. Washington Post Obama and Press

    Parent
    according to Huff Post today, (none / 0) (#155)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:18:58 AM EST
    he just spoke to the Jewish press about his support for Israel, distance from Farrakan, etc.

    Parent
    AIPAC (none / 0) (#163)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:43:56 AM EST
    He has AIPAC credentials. Heard a Palestinian American on democracy Now, about how Obama used to come to all the events when he was State Senator and how supportive he was, but when he got in the Senate.....he just went...POOF. Ah, got to love idealism.

    Parent
    I could say something here (none / 0) (#170)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:51:51 AM EST
    about that house in Chicago but, . . . .

    Parent
    Because you're either with the Clintons (none / 0) (#93)
    by Geekesque on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:53:08 AM EST
    or you're against them.

    If the Clintons get back into the White House, their people will be on the inside and those who failed to support her candidacy will be on the outside.

    Parent

    Nonsense (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:55:05 AM EST
    What actually is becomong clear at all levels is that if you do not HATE the Clintons, you are on the outs with Barack Obama's campaign and his supporters.

    What a hilariously ironic comment.

    Parent

    Saying (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by kid oakland on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:16:29 AM EST
    ...that people "hate" the Clintons is both wrong on the facts and does not advance your argument one whit. I like Hillary. I just don't support her for president.

    I wrote a comment holding Senator Clinton acountable for her leadership on the AUMF, her stance on the Levin Amendment and for the long years before the 2006 elections where Senator Clinton's rhetoric on the war was a major reason we stayed in and impacted Kerry's run for President.

    Here is Senator Clinton in April of 2004 in the midst of a presidential election year "Hillary Clinton: No Regret on Iraq Vote":


    "Obviously, I've thought about that a lot in the months since," she said. "No, I don't regret giving the president authority because at the time it was in the context of weapons of mass destruction, grave threats to the United States, and clearly, Saddam Hussein had been a real problem for the international community for more than a decade."

    But she said the Bush administration's short-circuiting of the U.N. weapons inspection process didn't permit "the inspectors to finish whatever task they could have accomplished to demonstrate one way or the other what was there."

    She also said the failure to plan properly for the post-war period "is the hardest to understand."

    Since the invasion of Iraq a year ago, no weapons of mass destruction have been found.

    Here's President Bill Clinton in June of 2004 from CNN "Clinton Defends Successors Push for War":

    Former President Clinton has revealed that he continues to support President Bush's decision to go to war in Iraq but chastised the administration over the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison.

    "I have repeatedly defended President Bush against the left on Iraq, even though I think he should have waited until the U.N. inspections were over," Clinton said in a Time magazine interview that will hit newsstands Monday, a day before the publication of his book "My Life."

    Those two comments are from April and June of a year in which we were competing to take back the White House.

    And you are writing about how the opinion of the media elites make Senator Clinton an "outsider" in 2008?

    Could it be that some in our party support a candidate other than Senator Clinton because of the Clinton's own actions?

    Parent

    How about addressing WHAT I WROTE? (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:32:14 AM EST
    You still have not.

    Parent
    What you wrote (4.00 / 1) (#127)
    by kid oakland on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:47:39 AM EST
    is a fundamentally dishonest frame.

    Clinton = Victim = No Accoutability

    The story of the last two weeks of this campaign have been the comments of an ex-President on the campaign trail who has used the coverage and free media he gets as an ex-President, and cultivated controversies to stay in the headlines.

    You want to argue both sides of the fence.

    I show you evidence that Bill and Hillary Clinton used their media star power in 2004 to undermine the case against the war in Iraq in a presidential election year and you come back and say I'm off topic?

    Lol. I am very on topic.

    Maybe the reason Kennedy and Kerry and some in the party oppose Senator Clinton is BECAUSE Bill Clinton came out and made supportive comments about President Bush and the war in Iraq in June of 2004 with the publication of a book called "My Life."

    That was a great way to make sure that Senators Kerry and Kennedy would support Senator Clinton in 2008. Right?

    There's got to be some accountability on the part of the Clinton campaign. It's not all a free ride.

    And, BTD, I know you know all these facts. I find it intellectually dishonest of you to make the argument you do today.

    Parent

    Then you are a fool (4.00 / 4) (#131)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:50:46 AM EST
    Oh no! An Ad hominem!

    As if saying someone is dishonest is not.

    You are simply a ridiculous figure now.

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by kid oakland on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:14:52 AM EST
    there's a difference between saying an argument is intellectually dishonest and has a deceptive premise...

    and calling someone personally ridiculous.

    At any rate, I think Ezra Klein put it very well and it is precisely on topic:

    Barack Obama was right on Iraq, and Hillary Clinton was wrong. Obama could have made a couple more speeches, but there really wasn't much he could do to divert the course of the war as a lone Senator. By contrast, there was very much Hillary Clinton, and her husband, could have done to divert the war -- and all it would have taken was exactly what Obama did. A prescient, fiercely oppositional speech during the run-up to the invasion. Nor has Clinton, who routinely promises to end the war once in office, exercised political leadership in the Senate, using either her media power or parliamentary pull to sustain a brave stand against the conflict.

    It's pretty clear.

    The Clintons could have. (They were and are establishment.) They did not. (They showed a failure to lead.)

    Parent

    But the next statement (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:18:17 AM EST
    should be." when it mattered, when he had the vote in the Senate, he was just as wrong as Hillary"

    Parent
    Again (none / 0) (#157)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:24:15 AM EST
    I think beiong called dishonest is much worse than being called ridiculous. But your mileage clearly varies.

    And you insist on IGNORING what I wrote in my post.

    There is no point is discussing this with you.

    You want to say what you want to say and that is that.  I do not care what yuou write but I do OBJECT to your dishonesty.

    Parent

    You don't hate Clinton, and I get along with you. (none / 0) (#101)
    by Geekesque on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:02:39 AM EST
    Not sure where you're getting that "hate Hillary or Obama doesn't like you" stuff.

    Parent
    You are the exception that proves the rule (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:09:13 AM EST
    I am derided, even in this thread by Kid Oakland, as a Clinton Shill because I point out the obvious.

    Because I do not hate Clinton and do not fawn over Obama.

    It is funny to me, since my tepid support for Obama is intellectually honest.

    It is funny to me, because I just ripped Bill clinton for his Jesse Jackson comment.

    But Obama supporters CONSISTENTLY call us here as TalkMarsh.com.

    I do no get that abuse from Clinton supporters though they disagree with me vehemently and often.

    So why do I say it? Because I experience it.

    Parent

    I don't anyone considers you personally (none / 0) (#108)
    by Geekesque on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:14:54 AM EST
    to be in Taylor Marsh's league.

    This blog overall does have a reputation of a strong slant for Hillary and against Obama, mainly because of Jeralyn's writings.  

    With a much better reputation than Marsh, of course.

    Parent

    why do people (none / 0) (#122)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:37:25 AM EST
    hate Taylor Marsh so much?  What has she lied about?  It's obvious that she is firmly in the Clinton Camp, but other than that, what exactly has she done?

    Parent
    Taylor is an extreme Clinton partisan (none / 0) (#132)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:51:42 AM EST
    so of course extreme Obama partisans will hate her.

    And they do.

    Parent

    There are plenty of extreme (none / 0) (#164)
    by Geekesque on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:45:44 AM EST
    Clinton partisans that are not subjects of hate.

    Marsh is a liar.  And, imo, a racist.  She's also one who repeatedly trashed Howard Dean in 2003-2004.

    Parent

    If Marsh is a liar (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:56:52 AM EST
    then what are Adam B and Icebergslim?

    Parent
    Can't you can the racist crap for one post? (none / 0) (#186)
    by RalphB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:14:48 PM EST
    She lies on a daily basis. (none / 0) (#171)
    by Geekesque on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:52:11 AM EST
    I used to read her site as a form of oppo research--she was a reliable bet to regurgitate the Clinton campaign talking points of the day.

    She lied about the claim that Obama played a misogynistic rap song at his Iowa victory party and refused to take it down.

    There are numerous other examples.

    She claims that Obama is race-baiting when he uses a couple of words that SCARY BLACK MAN MALCOLM X used.

    Another example of her flat-out lying:  Obama Embraces Outside PAC

    In short, she's a pro-Clinton Drudge, except less principled and more obvious in her biases.


    Parent

    Numerous other examples? (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:55:57 AM EST
    Come on. There are not numerous other examples.

    Adam B. lies as much as she does and is just as an extreme partisan.

    They are exactly the same imo.

    Parent

    The 99 Problems one wasn't enough? (none / 0) (#188)
    by Geekesque on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:15:37 PM EST
    The fact that she pushed that story and refused to retract it in the face of irrefutable evidence shows where her integrity level is.

    She also accused him of breaking the law while omitting the language of the law that contradicted her point.

    She is also a racist:

    The side that illustrates the African American candidate using words from a famous black leader to reach his own constituency in a more direct way; talking the language that they all know so well.

    You see, if a black man quotes another black man, he's playing the race card.

    Parent

    Re: (4.00 / 1) (#195)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:31:30 PM EST
    I am so sick of you guys making bogus accusations of racism every 5 minutes.  That one is particularly absurd.

    Parent
    That's all you got? (none / 0) (#190)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:18:41 PM EST
    And you defended some commenters at daily kos for worse.

    Sorry, you are being very hypocritical.

    I stand by my statement, Taylor Marsh is hated because she is an EXTREME Clinton partisan.

    Parent

    Obama did shamelessly race bati for SC (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by RalphB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:17:40 PM EST
    and I would appreciate it if his supporters would stop lying about it.  I could care less about using words from Malcolm X, but that SC campaign memo jsut sucked the big one.


    Parent
    read the post (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by eric on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:46:55 AM EST
    That Senator Clinton is the establishment candidate is without doubt. Why would you suggest otherwise?

    Because of all the reasons articluated in this post, that's why.  Furthermore, because Obama is being endorsed by many of the establishment figures in the Party.  Yes, Clinton has been in the Whitehouse and Bill was President, but as explained here and elsewhere, they never seem to have been allowed into the establishment club.


    Parent

    Silly argument. (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:49:22 AM EST
    The "establishment" candidate is the one who has the backing of the establishment.  Who's backing you know is only very peripherally related to what position you took on one particular issue six years ago.  Sure, Obama had a better position on the war in 2002 than Clinton.  But BTD's argument is that now he has the backing of the party establishment, the media, and the DC elite.

    And he does -- at least as much as Clinton does.  He's brilliantly staked out a position in which he is simultaneously the outsider and the insider candidate.

    Parent

    Of course (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:51:25 AM EST
    this provides an opening for Hillary to become an outside of sorts.

    Wonder if they will try.


    Parent

    That would be a bit much. . . (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:03:00 AM EST
    in my estimation -- but who knows?

    An outsider would be kind of hard.  But I think she can play against the DC establishment at the risk of further alienating them.  Although, frankly, what does she have to lose on that score?  

    Parent

    Same difference (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:04:08 AM EST
    Run against Washington.

    Parent
    its strange (5.00 / 0) (#169)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:49:48 AM EST
    Obama's claim is that he can be in Washington and bring people together. He is not running away from the light, he embraces the light. But he claims he can do that because he transcends the "workings of politics", the light In a similar logic: He is black, but he is not "that kind of black". He is a Democrat, but not "that kind of Democrat" He votes for the war, but he is "not that kind of pro war person."

    Parent
    My take... (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:55:37 AM EST
    I watched Hillary in her interview with Reno Gazette. She was clear that when she gets in all the things she wants from Congress. The establishment is not interested in getting anything done. She is a make government work. The "establishment" wants to win for the media the culture war. They don't care if FEMA works, they want that "good feeling" Obama gives. Hillary to them is boring. When she gives specifics, people don't care. Now she is dangerous, she knows how the Senate works. They don't want that in the White House, she will make them obsolete.

    Parent
    Obama (none / 0) (#162)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:39:56 AM EST
    didn't even vote in that year because he wasnt yet a senator...He made a speech not liking the idea of a war....big deal...Obviously his judgement sucks as proven by this Rezko thing...that is a huge deal....Noone seems to care about this tho but the Hillary supporters...Corporate America sure knows how to apply pressure...but the American people so far do not agree....

    Parent
    I give Obama full props. . . (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:47:00 AM EST
    for being against the war, and speaking against it, in 2002.  His speech at the time was prescient.  His voting record on the matter in the Senate?  Not so hot.

    Parent
    Establishment Policywise (none / 0) (#75)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:40:16 AM EST
    But shunned by the self proclaimed upper crust. They are called trailer trash.

    Parent
    Washington elite (none / 0) (#82)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:46:50 AM EST
    Kinda vague.

    Now who were the hoi polloi, the commoners and the poor wretches who gave Clinton all her super-delegates that supporters keep trotting out to count whenever she loses a primary?

    Let's face it, there are a lot of people in high places that don't like the Clintons. It doesn't appear to have anything to do with economic issues that anyone has pointed out.

    If Clinton's goals are consonant to the power brokers but they still don't like her that's either a compliment to her campaign to be so successful so far, or an insult to her as a person. If Clinton's goals are more proletarian than her betters then perhaps she should be out there sounding more like Edwards.

    It would be a shame that Clinton was the candidate of the entrenched powers that be and they kept trying to sink her.

    It Is A Social Thing (none / 0) (#95)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:55:45 AM EST
    Not a political thing. It enrages the classy set even more because they don't seem to give a sh*t about kissing the ring and the upward mobility that act promises but never achieves.

    Parent
    I am going to say it (none / 0) (#113)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 10:20:28 AM EST
    The Clintons were hated by the establishment for all the reasons cited here, but it was also because they were from the South.

    There was and still is a definite bias at work.

    Pageant (none / 0) (#150)
    by horseloverfat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:10:30 AM EST
    The more I think about yesterday's TedKennedy/Caroline/Obama pageant, the more ridiculous and patronizing I find it.

    It's like Obama is their new adopted son.  I would think of him more as their happy face front man, much like Bush for his peeps.

    She was correct, however, on the (none / 0) (#152)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:15:57 AM EST
    renegade Obama precinct captain in Nevada handing out those vote Hillary hate flyers.

    Didn't a lot of people (none / 0) (#158)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:25:16 AM EST
    believe the false rap song story?  I recall she retracted, but I may be making that up.

    Anyway, not sure why she is called a "hack."  That's a nasty charge.  Coming from a newspaper background myself, I wouldn't use it without more information than what has been provided.

    No doubt whatsoever that she is in the Clinton camp, though.

    Parent

    She never retracted and adamantly (none / 0) (#172)
    by Geekesque on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:52:40 AM EST
    stood by Page Six.

    Parent
    I fint the post amusing (none / 0) (#194)
    by Judith on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:28:56 PM EST
    for two reasons.

    1 - you are quoting another blog ( a new one0 as a source.  They have no cred to be a core source.

    2 - "establishment" in this context is merely a cover for the Kennedy Mass. based machine and when I pointed out the relatuionship I had Chicago thrown at me left and right.

    Unconvincing stuff - you can call anybody elite and anybody establishment if you are looking from the other side in this. Instant coffee from Maxwell House is a delicacy in the Phillipines.

    I find this comment silly (none / 0) (#196)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 12:34:45 PM EST
    and rather uninformed.

    Parent
    that;s okay (none / 0) (#225)
    by Judith on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:59:52 PM EST
    Politco just put out its shingle how long ago?  Sorry, not a core source imo.  I have no idea who any of them are.  You differ, that is fine. But uninformed depends on what you think makes one informed and clearly we do not agree on that.

    Parent
    You think it was somehow (none / 0) (#223)
    by jondee on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:54:11 PM EST
    something PERSONAL against the Clintons? Maybe in the United States of Amnesia.

    We're dealing with a faction and mindset here that scrupled to:

    1. Attempt to sabotage the Paris peace talks in '68.

    2. Burglerized and attempted to bug the Dem headquarters in '72.

    3. Stole Carters debate notes while cutting secret deals with "our enemies" the Iranians.

    4. Dug up dirt on Thomas Eagleton and Kitty Dukakis.

    Is there anyone here who actually anticipates a shred of honor and decency from these people? Simplemindedly talking about this thing imagined to be "Clinton hate" is a betrayal of a historical ignorance (another perrenial Rethug ace-in-the-hole).

    Parent
    Of course they hate Clinton (none / 0) (#226)
    by mexboy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:16:02 PM EST
    Entrenched power will always hate and try to destroy those who try to change their way of doing business. She represents a real threat to them!

    An "elite" who "just" (none / 0) (#228)
    by jondee on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:38:32 PM EST
    (for no rational reason) "hates" our favorite candidate.

    Gee, somehow that sounds vaguely familiar: like what we've been hearing from all the jackdaws of the right for the last seven years in explanation for the REAL reason Shrub is so unpopular.

    Of course,when you charge that the disagreement is based on "hate", you can dispence with having to acknowledge any criticism that may be justifiable.

    A centrist who cops the rhetoric of the right. Somehow thats not as suprising as it should be.

    Parent

    Political cover (none / 0) (#229)
    by G Davis on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:25:50 PM EST
    Ted Kennedy is 76 years old.  This is likely his last real chance of being a part of a movement.  I don't this has anything to do with making anyone beholden as he'll be gone soon.

    The real deal with his endorsement is ground game organization and political cover for anyone else in DC to make a free choice.  He, Kerry and Leahy add enough DC gravitas that it effectively puts Obama on equal status with the Clintons.

    I think it's good.  Now we can find out who our elected ones back and why without them having the excuse that they were being politically expedient.  

    Makes for better overall governing.

    Rose lived to 100 (none / 0) (#230)
    by Judith on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:09:40 PM EST
    Teddy aint going anywhere soon.

    comments closing here (none / 0) (#238)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:57:40 PM EST
    We're over 200, time to close comments. Thanks to all.