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By Big Tent Democrat

A lot of my theories of this election will be facing their moments of truth in the next month. I will lay them out here now so folks can razz me on how wrong I was.

The Dem Nomination

Hillary runs better than Obama in contested big state primaries. The tests? Texas and Ohio on March 4th.

As a result, Clinton is still the favorite for the nomination. The test? Well, winning the nomination.

To win the nomination, Obama needs to run better with women, registered Dems, Latinos and working class whites. The test? Again Texas and Ohio on March 4th.

More . . .

The General Election

Obama is a Media Darling. The test? The coverage he receives after he fully assumes the frontrunner mantle after winning the Wisconsin primary on February 19. If he gets the normal frontrunner treatment (see Dean, Howard, circa December 2003), Obama should get a bushel full of tough media coverage. I predict he will not.

Because Obama is a Media darling, he is our best bet for November. This seems self evident. The test for this theory will be in November if Obama is the nominee.

Obama will NOT have long coattails in a General Election. Why? Because he does not run as a partisan Democrat. He will not be making an argument that we need more Democrats in Congress. He will not be making an argument against Republicans in Congress. The test? The results in November.

If Clinton is the nominee, the Republicans and the Media will engage in the dirtiest campaign in recent history. Clinton will win a close election and slightly expand the slim Dem majority in the Congress.

An Obama Presidency

The Obama Presidency will begin with a mandate for ending the war in Iraq. And with a mandate for nothing else. Republicans will resist him at every turn. Little will be accomplished except, and this is a huge except, ending the Iraq Debacle.

Health care reform will be compromised to the point of nothingess.

The Bush tax cuts will be extended until 2012. Obama supporters like Claire McCaskill and Ben Nelson will lead the fight to extend the Bush tax cuts.

Obama will easily win reelection due to his ability to rise above politics. The test? The 2012 elections.

A Clinton Presidency

The Iraq Debacle will be ended.

Health care reform will be stymied by Republicans and conservative Democrats like Claire McCaskill and Ben Nelson.

The Bush tax cuts will be the biggest battle of the Congress. It could even lead to a government shutdown.

Nothing will be accomplished because Clinton will not compromise with the Republicans. Partisan warfare breaks out with the Media siding with the Republicans.

In 2010, Clinton and the Democrats run on universal health care paid for by rolling back the Bush tax cuts. The Dems win a governing majority.

In 2012, after rolling back the Bush tax cuts and enacting universal health care reform, Clinton loses her reelection bid to Bobby Jindal, the Governor of Louisiana. Democrats lose the Congress.

There it is. So shoot away.

NOTE: Comments are closed.

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  • Display: Sort:
    My theories (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by s5 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:17:54 PM EST
    Well as long as we're having fun with conjecture, here's mine:

    Obama wins Maryland, Virginia, DC, Hawaii, and probably Wisconsin. Even though these states have been "priced in" by the blogs and political junkies, low-information Clinton voters finally consider Obama as more than just the other name on the ballot. Major endorsements and most media moves to Obama. A small media backlash about Obama supporters as a "cult" fails to take root. Ohio goes to Obama, Texas to Clinton by 10% or less. Obama wins the nomination without any kerfuffle over superdelegates.

    Obama wins the general election in a realignment. "Not since Reagan" is repeated on election night by every talking head.

    Democrats widen their margin in the Senate. Harry Reid is ousted or steps down as majority leader. The House stays pretty much the same.

    Obama governs with a mandate for progressive policy, and runs on single payer health care for his re-election bid. "Republicans in disarray" is the permanent media narrative. Peace and prosperity fill the land, and everyone gets a free kitten.

    I like your theory better than mine (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:18:49 PM EST
    And yes these are all for fun. I invite everybody to offer their theory.

    Parent
    Reid is ousted (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Tano on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:21:42 PM EST
    Yes! Hillary for Majority Leader!

    Parent
    This is standard candidate. . . (none / 0) (#94)
    by LarryInNYC on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:40:09 PM EST
    fantasy material, except for this:

    Democrats widen their margin in the Senate. Harry Reid is ousted or steps down as majority leader.

    Reid may step down from age or health, but if the Democrats expand their Senate majority (especial if they do so with a new class of conservative Obama-state Senators) Reid's position is strengthened, not weakened.

    Parent

    Aside from the usual 2008 fare (none / 0) (#109)
    by s5 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:52:25 PM EST
    This is actually an interesting debate. What would happen to Reid? I can see arguments both ways. Either he'll be strengthened by a larger margin in the Senate, or voters clamoring for a "change" election will signal that it's time for new leadership. Personally I would be happy to see him move on, but I don't know exactly how this would play out.

    Parent
    The best thing for everyone: (none / 0) (#224)
    by jr on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 05:07:16 AM EST
    Ambassador Harry Reid.

    Doesn't matter where.

    Parent

    You're an Obama supporter as much as (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Geekesque on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:29:41 PM EST
    Joe Lieberman is a rabid partisan Democrat.

    Claire McCaskill voting to extend the Bush tax cuts?

    Not a reality-based statement.  

    Link.And, you think a Democratic Congress would extend those tax-cuts with President Obama approving?

    That's beyond silly.  It's somewhere between insane and libelous.

    Obama not arguing that we need more Democrats in Congress?  He talks about the need to build a working majority every chance he gets.  He's campaigned for Democrats every chance he's gotten.  He's asked his supporters to phone bank for Democrats in the special House elections.

    Your disagreement with his rhetoric has rendered you incapable of discussing him rationally.

    You're now in the same league as Taylor Marsh.  

    It is dishonest for you to describe yourself as an Obama supporter, since you are indistinguishable from Taylor Marsh when it comes to him.

    You should endorse Clinton.

    Well (none / 0) (#88)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:35:03 PM EST
    Now that you have judged me unworthy to carry the moniker "Obama supporter" perhaps you can settle down and enjoy the actual tone of this post and thread, which was half snark.

    And have some fun in it while you are at it.

    Your guy had a big weekend. I would think you would be in a GOOD mood today.

    Parent

    Can you do anything other than attack someone? (none / 0) (#100)
    by RalphB on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:44:59 PM EST
    I believe this thread was a prediction and some of it was obvious snark.  Got a prediction to make?


    Parent
    Take it easy (none / 0) (#107)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:47:57 PM EST
    Geek is cool.

    Parent
    Hillary is the better GE Candidate IMHO (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by LadyDiofCT on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:31:55 PM EST
    I do not see Obama as the best in the GE.  His 'present' votes and absent votes (Kyle/Lieberman) will show his inability to lead.  His total lack of experience, especially foreign experience, will remind everyone of GWB.  His lack of management skills, lack of leadership as chairman of his current Foreign Affairs committee, not scheduling even one meeting, will be mentioned over and over.  Is the elephant in the room going to be "President Barack Hussein Obama"?  This will hurt him in the general.  I believe that Hillary will actually bring in more women and black voters against John McCain than conventional wisdom implies, including indies, and some repubs.  She is also more hawkish and will bring some republicans along on Iraq and Iran, Obama just doesn't have the credentials for this.  Who's going to babysit him in the Oval Office, Uncle Teddy and Uncle (I still want to be president) John?  Hillary will end the debacle in Iraq and will let the bush tax cuts expire.  Obama will be beholden to his red state rhetoric and endorsements and will vote 'present' thereby getting nothing accomplished.

    Ok, here's why I am. (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:37:36 PM EST
    Presidential race:

    My big prediction is that we won't win, no matter who our nominee is. Our nominee isn't Bill Clinton and their nominee isn't Bumpkinish George W. Bush. McCain puts places like Pennsylvania and Connecticut back in play for Republicans. Hillary can win Florida, and Obama can't. Likewise for Ohio. The reverse is true for Iowa.

    Senate:

    Both Udalls win, Mary Landrieu Loses. Al Franken is elected by 100 votes--the closest margin in the country. John Sununu is toast. John Kerry runs a closer-than-expected race.

    House: We pick up 5-10 seats. Nick Lampson and Tim Mahoney lose anyway.

    McCain keeps us in Iraq for ages, but "accidentally" appoints another David  Souter when Stevens dies.

    McCan dies in office and is replaced by his Vice President Mike Huckabee, who goes on to be defeated by Russ Feingold in 2011.

    Ohio (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:04:48 PM EST
    Yeah, for Obama to convince me that he could win a general, he HAS to win either Ohio or Penn.  Texas will allow him to win the primary, yes, but without either Ohio or Penn, he's likely not going to take these states in the GE.

    Gawl, I really need to go do something else!

    Parent

    Good predictions, however. . . (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by LarryInNYC on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:10:54 PM EST
    McCan dies in office and is replaced by his Vice President Mike Huckabee, who goes on to be defeated by Russ Feingold in 2011.

    I say Huckabee actually marries Feingold in Boston  in 2011, the ceremony presided over by Mitt Romney.

    Parent

    hehehehehe (none / 0) (#161)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:28:11 PM EST
    That should be *where* I am. (none / 0) (#95)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:40:17 PM EST
    That is truly depressing. (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Compound F on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:43:18 PM EST
    I watched Bush this morning once again claim that history cannot judge him for a long, long time.  He's the only person who finds comfort in that view.  I'd tell you exactly how much I despise the man, but the site is moderated for immoderate language.

    Nah WRONG (5.00 / 0) (#152)
    by Salt on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:21:45 PM EST
    Hillary will change the mission in Iraq, no combat but I dont believe we will leave..

    Health Care will pass there is not choice,

    Nelson, McCaskill, Kerry and Kennedy will lose their seats to younger less divisive candidates when they come up for re election.

    She will not roll back the tax cuts under 250,000.

    She will severely restricts discretionary spending,

    She will have coat tails. Pulling my local candidate into office in an open Republican seat.

    We will prosper

    There will be gun control, more police and crime will drop again

    Lou Dobbs, Chris Matthews, Rush will be fired for being stupid and no one will visit Huff Post anymore.

    And We the People will stand up and do our part and fight for honorable ethical competent governance and protect our leaders from the loons.. instead of boo hooing and playing victim corrupt people and special interest

    If Obama is the nominee, McCain is President and if he is smart Christie Todd Whitman is his VP or someone like her.


    My Theory or is it Wishful thinking? (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:23:41 PM EST
    The Democratic candidate will win in 2008 because all this talk about not voting if the other candidate wins is just a bunch of baloney.  And all democrats and progressive thinking americans will not vote for the likes of McCain or Huckabee.  
    Under a Democratic administration we will prosper and the mistakes of the past will not be repeated.
    People like Corrine Brown will gain prominence in your party.
    The State of Ct will learn from their mistakes and never elect a person like Lieberman again.

    And I might register as a Democrat.  

    i'll add two (4.66 / 3) (#45)
    by Turkana on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:07:37 PM EST
    a president hillary governs from the center and is excoriated in the liberal blogs. the keepers of the flame hold her feet to the fire.

    a president obama governs from the center and the liberal blogs excuse and rationalize and lose their status as keepers of the flame. the change is not the change that was presumed.  

    That I disagree with (4.42 / 7) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:10:57 PM EST
    Hillary would govern from the center left and get excoriated.

    Obama may govern from the center right and get praised.

    Parent

    Blogosphere (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:40:40 PM EST
    The blogosphere has a history of electing bluedogs then complaining voraciously about it.

    Shouldn't they have figured out before election that these were bluedogs?  I always could.

    Parent

    I didn't know, Tell me (none / 0) (#112)
    by koshembos on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:54:16 PM EST
    Stew (none / 0) (#111)
    by koshembos on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:52:31 PM EST
    If Hillary wins the nomination, Obama leaves the Democratic party (to which he never actually belonged) and Hillary loses the election to McCain because all the TPMs and Nation magazine (Carey MacWilliams turns in his California grave) belong to the new centrist party called Bamacracy.

    Unity Über Alles!

    Parent

    Stew (none / 0) (#231)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 08:44:19 AM EST
    Or  Obama  loses  and pouts,  joins  the Joe  Lieberman  Independent  Party,  and  DKos, TPM,  and   Huffington   provide  support for  same. LOL

    Parent
    Obama wins the nomination but (3.00 / 2) (#110)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:52:28 PM EST
    is obliterated once the swift boating starts.  I can only hope andgarden's predictions on McCain SCOTUS appointment is correct and that Feingold assumes his rightful place.  

    Well, you do have a theory (none / 0) (#1)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:28:57 PM EST
    It's probably about as accurate as when my friends and I get together and try and predict the next season of the NBA during the pre-season though.

    Why are you skipping (none / 0) (#2)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:32:57 PM EST
    Wisconsin, Virginia, Maryland and DC?

    Wisconsin and Virginia are critical states in the general. Very relevant. (Colorado, Minnesota and Iowa are relevant too.)

    Further, here's a list of states that Obama won on our side but McCain did not. That says something about the general:

    Kansas
    Alabama
    Georgia
    North Dakota
    Louisiana
    Minnesota
    Iowa
    Utah
    Colorado
    Alaska

    The Superstate of Minnewisowa (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:57:42 PM EST
    as some pundits called it, saying it could be crucial.  So expect the next Rovian attacks on the elections there this fall, with these vulnerabilities:

    Remember that Wisconsin was the closest state in 2004, has one of the most rabid GOP counties in the country right between Milwaukee and Madison -- and it has a horrible Repub ADA in Milwaukee, Biskupic, who went over the top already with vote-fraud scares, imprisoning a grandmother and more to try to defeat the Democratic governor.  It didn't work, but it may make Biskupic more rabid.

    Remember that Minnesota has a Republican governor.   That never helps in a vote-fraud battle.  And the state hosts the Republican convention.  And it put through rabid conceal-and-carry gun laws.  The Twin Cities are dealing with the late Great Migration at last, as well as new immigrant groups who are about as far from Scandinavian as can be!  Hmong refugees (it and Wisconsin have two of the three largest Hmong communities in the country), Somalians, etc.  These factors plus the bridge collapse are making Minnesota edgy.

    Iowa, I don't know as much about. . . .

    Parent

    Iowa... (none / 0) (#140)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:13:23 PM EST
    ...has suffered a great deal over the last 8 years.  Much of the state's manufactoring has been closed down, the mega-corporate "farms" have all but killed off the family farm, the small towns and polluted the air and water.  

    There are still pockets of wing-nut in the rural areas (mostly the NW corner of the state), but they are loosing their appeal pretty quick and decreasing in number as the rural way of life disappears.  Additionally, Iowans are generally pretty adverse to war, especially pointless ones.  

    I think the Dem's have a pretty good shot at carrying the state this year.  

    Parent

    Thanks for the insights (none / 0) (#199)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:30:07 PM EST
    I knew the family farmers had seen setbacks, in my state, too -- but no state is as agricultural as Iowa!  I read that it's still 94% farmland?  But farmed by fewer and fewer now, with megafarms.  And
    I didn't know about the manufacturing base, but am not surprised, with so much of the Midwest also suffering so.  (Poor Michigan, it really needs to be allowed to weign in on this nomination. . . .)

    My best to your beautiful state -- my family farmed there, many generations ago.

    Parent

    Obama wins them all easily (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:34:06 PM EST
    We have extrapolated beyond that.

    All the way to the 2012 election even.

    Parent

    Of the list (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:37:24 PM EST
    we can win Iowa, Minnesota and Colorado.

    We will also win Maryland, DC and have a great shot at Virginia.

    I take your point that in THOSE states Obama has the better shot.

    The problem for me though with that type of thinking is that in California, Obama may give McCain a shot.

    But to address your point seriously, I DO believe Obama is more electable in a significant way in Colorado and Virginia. No small thing.

    And thank you for the reasonable comment. I hope to see this Kid Oakland at Talk Left.

    Parent

    Not Colorado (none / 0) (#12)
    by dissenter on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:44:35 PM EST
    I don't think Obama has a chance in hell of winning in my fine state. Outside of Denver and Boulder where are these votes coming from?

    Barack Obama isn't Salazar. He can't make the leap across continental divide. No way, no how.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:46:31 PM EST
    So much for my theory on that.

    Parent
    especially if it is (none / 0) (#28)
    by english teacher on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:56:14 PM EST
    mccain/huck right.  that would be a potent republican cocktail in colorado from what i understand of the place.

    Parent
    Not really (none / 0) (#42)
    by dissenter on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:06:06 PM EST
    Colorado is not understood very well. It is a republican state but is a libertarian state as in don't screw with my guns, lower my taxes, I'm not wearing mandated helmets, etc. It isn't socially conservative outside of CO Springs. Huck might help him there but that is about it. He would do better with someone considered good on the economy.

    Dems that win here are fiscally conservative, they don't even discuss guns outside of Boulder and Denver and they are pro business. That is how they win. The state is pro choice even with republican majority because it has a libertarian streak.

    McCain isn't perceived as that "conservative" although he is and the military people love him. We have a big military presence in this state and the state has the second highest number of federal jobs.

    I don't personally think Clinton or Obama can win here but between the two Clinton would have a better shot.

    Parent

    No way... (none / 0) (#83)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:30:41 PM EST
    ...is Colorado a "republican" state.  Extending your "theory", I guess Mark Udall has no chance at all and should just drop out of the Senate race right now.  

    You can't simply state Colorado is a Reublican or a Democratic state.  We are individualists as a people and purple as a state.

    Parent

    Ah No (none / 0) (#102)
    by dissenter on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:46:36 PM EST
    Take a look at the voter registration numbers. It is a republican state with a lot of independents. Democrats are in third. Udall wins if he faces a right wing nut. If they ran a moderate pro-choice republican he would get trounced.

    I don't enjoy telling you that but it is the truth. Their crazy base and the Dobson nuts that come out to the caucuses, control the party, etc are ensuring their defeat lately.

    It is the choice of the republican candidate that does them in. Not the rise of progressive politics.

    Parent

    And aside from the wingnuts... (none / 0) (#116)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:56:30 PM EST
    ...they have nobody.  The Repulican party in this state is to laugh at.  Dobson, Bruce, Coors, Benson, et al.  

    If we're such a die-hard Republican state, why is there a Democrat sitting in the Governor's mansion and a Democratic majority in the legislature?  

    Colorado is NOT about identity politics, it is about issue politics.  

    And don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining. A moderate pro-choice republican.  I want some of what you're smoking!

    Parent

    Its Called Amendment 36 (none / 0) (#148)
    by dissenter on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:19:47 PM EST
    Remember electoral reform? It was an issue that was a trap that the Repbulicans fell for. They became so obsessed with stopping it (even though it never had a chance in hell of passing) that they threw all their money and resources into the initiative and didn't take care of their districts. That is how they lost.

    Issue politics is everywhere but if you think you are winning a presidential election (with McCain) or beating a moderate republican here you are high.

    How old are you cuz clearly you don't know much political history in this state.

    Parent

    History is fluid... (none / 0) (#178)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:46:24 PM EST
    ...just like political leanings.  Electorial reform?  Are you kidding me?  You poor deluded thing. Your average voter decided on basis of 36.  Tee hee, that's a good one.

    How old are you, 'cause this contrarian trolling is for octigarians.  Perhaps you should take your act over to the Republican Mountain News, you'd fit in much better over there.  


    Parent

    Octigarian? (none / 0) (#241)
    by magisterludi on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:31:36 AM EST
    Two words- spell check.

    Parent
    It is an open question (none / 0) (#118)
    by Steve M on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:58:31 PM EST
    whether the GOP manages to frame Obama as a raging liberal on issues like guns in the GE.

    No one except BTD's crystal ball really knows what the narrative on Obama will look like come November.

    Parent

    On Guns It Shouldn't Be Hard For Them At All (none / 0) (#193)
    by MO Blue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:16:36 PM EST
    Fairly anti-gun record in IL Senate.

    In Iowa, he said he wouldn't take folks guns away but then there is this:

    1996, however, Obama said in a questionnaire that he "supported banning the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns" -- a fairly extreme position.
    ...
    HOWEVER, it should be pointed out that this appears to be yet another example of Obama not being able to get good help.
    You guessed it -- his campaign says this questionnaire was filled out incorrectly by a staffer. ABC

    Somehow I don't believe that after the NRA puts out copies of that questionnaire, the "don't touch my gun folks" are going to buy into the staffer mistake bit.


    Parent

    You don't think McCain/Huck would (none / 0) (#206)
    by burnedoutdem on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:01:30 PM EST
    lose independent votes to Obama?  I know McCain appeals to the indy vote, but I think Huck would negate that if he's on the ticket...the first time he trots out a confederate flag and talks about putting more God in the Constitution and all those independent votes will go running to Obama, won't they?

    Parent
    Huck won't be on the ticket. (none / 0) (#251)
    by liminal on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 11:44:19 AM EST
    Romney's withdrawal from the race virtually guarantees it, I think.  McCain will turn elsewhere: Huck is too much of a loon to be a Veep, and with Romney out, McCain will not 'owe' Huck anything.

    Parent
    btd, do you think (none / 0) (#115)
    by english teacher on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:56:20 PM EST
    musgrove will beat wicker for lott's seat in ms?  i had seen a report that he was well ahead in polls.

    i actually prefer ronnie shows for the seat but musgrove being a former governor who was good on education has a much higher profile than former congressman shows.  

    Parent

    Georgia is VERY winnable for Obama (none / 0) (#34)
    by halstoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:58:23 PM EST
    Georgia is Bible belters and minorities, with some college towns thrown in for good measure. We do have our share of bases, but they really don't influence voting like you would think. This is really social conservative territory, more suitable for Huckabee, not McCain.

    Obama got more votes here than Huck and Mac combined on Feb. 5. This is the new black capital, and a lot of upper middle class areas. I think Obama pulls it off.

    Parent

    Right (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by dissenter on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:13:54 PM EST
    I am laughing so hard I am choking on my dinner. One more time, he can't get a majority of the white vote. Where are you getting these new votes?

    Is he going to become anti-choice, invoke God into the constitution, endorse the confederate flag?

    Please.......

    Parent

    He Will Have More Gospel Concerts (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by MO Blue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:55:53 PM EST
    featuring the line up he had in S.C. and claim that his staff didn't vet them beforehand.

    Parent
    Are you saying (none / 0) (#154)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:22:34 PM EST
    that whites who are so liberal in voting for Clinton are not going to vote for a black man?

    That's pretty sad that Clinton's support is so racist.

    Parent

    Not Clinton (none / 0) (#158)
    by dissenter on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:24:55 PM EST
    The South

    Parent
    So you think that if he beats Hillary (none / 0) (#166)
    by halstoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:33:04 PM EST
    that liberal whites will just stay home? He didn't get 700,00+ votes all from blacks here. I'm white, my Obama friends are white, young white liberal college kids are white. Liberal white women who don't stay home and still support Democrats are white.

    But you're right, he won Washington on the backs of all the blacks living there. Same with MN, CT, KS, NE, ID, etc.

    Despite what you may think, not all of us Southerners are just hillbilly racists. He won over 50% of whites 18-44 and about 35% white 45+, and that was with another liberal on the ticket.

    So despite what you may try to portray, white people do not in fact dislike Obama.

    But, since you wanna play that game, where is Hillary gonna get black votes? I guess they'll just sit this one out, huh? And without black women, she might be in trouble.

    And Obama's gonna take his wine crowd and go home. Say bye bye to the Northeastern liberal crowd. Shucks, we might as well inaugurate McCain now.

    And here I thought the GOP was divided.

    Been to ATL lately? You'd be surprised at how many of us wear long pants and ties nowadays. Not a lot of barefeet and overalls anymore...

    Parent

    Base % for a Dem in GA is about 39 (none / 0) (#225)
    by jr on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 05:17:25 AM EST
    If McCain manages to fail at getting the thumpers out to vote, we may only lose by 2-3% with Obama as the nominee.

    I hate to be so blunt about it (especially since I worked the '04 Senate race there), but I think Majette's performance four years ago is about what we can expect in Georgia if Hillary is the nominee.

    I don't think we win it either way, but I can pretty well guarantee we'd perform better with Obama at the top of the ticket than Hillary.  Since we're not seriously competitive there anyway, this should only matter in terms of whether or not we can make the GOP spend some cash on it.

    Parent

    Hope (none / 0) (#205)
    by lily15 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:50:20 PM EST
    when facts are absent.

    dissenter...you are so right.  No one is looking at the problem with white votes and hispanic votes...
    nor has anyone mentioned the power of the female vote...and republican women voting hillary over mccain...rather amazing.

    Parent

    Not really (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:16:15 PM EST
    so the 400k vote advantage for dems (none / 0) (#169)
    by halstoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:34:46 PM EST
    was pointless? is that the point here?

    Parent
    that is the most (none / 0) (#4)
    by athyrio on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:37:01 PM EST
    depressing theory I have ever read...and completely predicts the end of my life literally...I am in remission with no insurance...I disagree about Obama and the media darling, however, I can say one thing...If there is no onslaught of media against him, it tells me that he has "made a deal" with the republicans and that scares the poop out of me...If he can turn his back on middle and lower income that easily then he isnt the guy for me to vote for...to keep the big tax cut for the wealthy in place is to turn his back literally...IMO...

    This is why I became a one-issue voter this year (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by katiebird on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:45:24 PM EST
    "I am in remission with no insurance"

    This is why I became a one issue voter this year.  

    I'm very, very sorry.

    Parent

    So are a lot of people (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by dissenter on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:48:36 PM EST
    One of my best friends has cancer but is currently in remission. She has insurance and her medical bills for 07 were $98K.

    You don't have to apologize to anyone for that.

    Parent

    thats why i have no insurance now (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by athyrio on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:51:00 PM EST
    I reached the lifetime cap in just three years...

    Parent
    Really? We've let this drift for way to long (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by katiebird on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:53:37 PM EST
    Really? We've let this drift for way to long.  Health Care should be a constitutional issue.

    It might not be my personal fault (for one thing it was one of 2 issues for me last time) -- but it doesn't help that millions of people like me didn't make this an ISSUE until this year.

    We've come a long way.  I remember when I used to make comments about Universal Health Care in 2003 getting STOMPED.  Things have really changed.

    But it won't matter with the theory we're talking about here.  We might be doomed.

    Parent

    I'm a single-issue voter too (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:45:16 PM EST
    Because I know how many people like you are out there.

    Parent
    I think it is a reasonable prediction (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:38:13 PM EST
    But it is possible that Obama will dig in his heels and fight on health care.

    Parent
    Logical too (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by Virginian on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:10:11 PM EST
    that is pretty much what the two candidates records say...best predictor of past behavior is future behavior...

    The only points of contention I have are:

    1. Republicans will run the dirtiest campaign they ever have no matter our nominee...and the 2012 elections will top 2008, and so on...they never cease to find a new low (or high depending on your perspective)

    2. Obama will win reelection. If he is not a productive president, Obama won't win reelection...his "magic" is a one shot deal, I think that is fairly evident. Even with the power of incumbency, but his "movement" is pop culture driven...and like all pop culture, it has an expiration date (generally in the 12-18 month range). Basically, he'll lose his "I'm cool cause I support Obama" constituents regardless of his productivity as a president, but if he's not more productive than ending the war, if he doesn't give the progressive movement (a movement he really isn't a part of if you look at his record and rhetoric) enough red meat, he'll be a one termer

    3. I am not convinced he'll cruise to a November victory. Although Clinton can't gain any traction on the "Obama is not vetted" line of attack...it is true...Obama is not vetted. It is yet to be seen if he will hold up to scrutiny. One minor chink in his armor that comes out early enough will have the potential to bring his whole movement to a grinding halt by November...the Republicans can make you sick of someone because you're sick of hearing about them (regardless of the veracity)...and I think people will get REALLY tired of hearing Bill Kristol talk about Obama every Sunday on Meet the Press...and Peggy Noonan, and... and... and...

    (throwing a dart Zogby style...we'll have to see in November...then 4 years after)

    Parent
    Vice Versa (none / 0) (#191)
    by Virginian on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:12:26 PM EST
    Best predictor of future behavior is past behavior

    Parent
    If (none / 0) (#192)
    by Steve M on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:13:53 PM EST
    the Republicans get dirty on Obama - and there's about a 99% chance they will - the partisan Dems will all rally to him the same way they rallied to Clinton.  He may have to win reelection on a different schtick but he should still win it.

    Parent
    Yep...just like we rallied around (none / 0) (#219)
    by Virginian on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:50:46 AM EST
    Gore and Kerry too...but the whole inventing the internet thing is still out there...and the whole "wounding himself" to get a purple heart thing is still out there...

    defensive rallying doesn't do squat when it comes to political capital or momentum...and that is why the Republicans crank up the ol' lie machine every 2 years...you put enough bologna out there, despite its truth, and people will get sick of the target (because all they hear is negative things, even if untrue), not the liar...poison poisons, it doesn't matter you're a good person or not...

    Human beings are still animals after all...we have a tendency to believe people who are unfairly targeted did something to "bring it on themselves"...it is our way of justifying our inaction...at the same time as our self-preservation (if we don't get involved, we don't get attacked either)...that is why people HATE negative ads, but negative ads are very successful (dollar for dollar more so than positive ads)...

    Parent

    Partisan Dems are not his strength (none / 0) (#220)
    by Cream City on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:16:57 AM EST
    as they/we favor Clinton.  Obama draws the Indies, the newcomers to politics who may not be as ready or willing to rally 'round when the tough times come -- Indies by being so dislike politics, its nastiness, and newcomers who haven't been through it before won't know what hit 'em.

    Parent
    That is true today (none / 0) (#248)
    by Steve M on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 10:21:54 AM EST
    but what I'm saying is, the dynamic will change if Obama is the guy and gets unfairly attacked.

    A lot of us partisan Dems who are kinda "ehhh" about Obama will be a lot more fired up if the GOP decides to do their usual Willie Horton routine.  We'll tell ourselves that there's no way in hell we're losing another election THAT way.  (Whether we're right or not remains to be seen!)

    Consider how Democrats rallied around Clinton during the impeachment even though he had sold out the left any number of times by that point.

    Parent

    On pt #3, you are so correct (none / 0) (#197)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:26:13 PM EST
    As when followers think a hero is perfect, only one misstep can bring it all crashing down.  One misstep they'll believe, anyway.  So far, he has been so untouchable.  But it really can't continue. . . .

    Parent
    Cream (5.00 / 0) (#234)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:05:49 AM EST
    And  when he pushes  for    driver's licenses  for illegal  aliens  as  part of his  comprehensive  immigration  reform,   he   loses   all  those  Independents  and moderate  Republicans.   He'll  lose  the  Reagan Democrats, too.

    Parent
    Californians without insurance (none / 0) (#212)
    by blogtopus on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:26:08 PM EST
    Can join a legislative or congressional coalition - I don't remember it exactly, but it is basically a giant group that you join for $50/year, and it is group Kaiser insurance. You still pay relatively high premiums, but they HAVE to take you.

    If you contact e-insurance or e-health or one of those and try to get them to get you a plan, ask them about this option. I'll try to find the details for California.

    I had to do this when my Cobra ran out, and it worked fine until I could get another full time job. Otherwise I have no chance of ever getting individual insurance.

    Parent

    Too long term for me. (none / 0) (#6)
    by RalphB on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:37:42 PM EST
    I don't have a clue how either would turn out but I'll make a small bet we still have a contingent of troops in Iraq, or very nearby, in 2012 no matter who wins.

    I do agree that if Obama runs the general election like the primaries, there will be no mandate for anything except maybe "can't we all just get along".

    Even if there is a ton of republican and media against any democratic agenda, it would be a real shame not to push for all it's worth.  

    One of the reasons republicans win in Texas, and I assume elsewhere, is that they stand up and fight.  Even if people don't agree with them, they are grudgingly respected.  Democrats tend to roll over and even I can't respect that, so they get zip.


    the Iraq Debacle.

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#67)
    by IndependantThinker on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:19:34 PM EST
    Obama will compromise on Iraq.

    Parent
    This is hilarious. (none / 0) (#7)
    by kangeroo on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:38:02 PM EST
    You brought a big smile to my face.  :)

    ME was in Hillary's demo... (none / 0) (#8)
    by Meurs on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:38:10 PM EST
    Lower income, no African-Americans, older, and women.  Why the blowout there?

    My theory (none / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:39:07 PM EST
    without seeing the exit polls is that turnout was not working class but rather wine track.

    I'll have to look it up.

    Parent

    You're killin me (none / 0) (#15)
    by lisadawn82 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:48:19 PM EST
    In 2012, after rolling back the Bush tax cuts and enacting universal health care reform, Clinton loses her reelection bid to Bobby Jindal, the Governor of Louisiana. Democrats lose the Congress.


    Well (none / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:50:15 PM EST
    That is what happens when you do something and you are not a magical pol.

    Obama needs to do what I predict Clinton doing. He can make it political magic. I fear he won't do a thing.

    Parent

    I mean that you're making me laugh (none / 0) (#30)
    by lisadawn82 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:57:36 PM EST
    nt

    Parent
    I'm glad (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:01:47 PM EST
    I was not kidding. I think Clinton can not sell it.

    I think Obama can, but won't.

    My frustration with Obama is of epic proportions PRECISELY because he could be our FDR and he refuses to try.

    Parent

    Even FDR wasn't FDR before he became FDR (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by koshembos on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:09:28 PM EST
    Why this habit of giant leaps of faith when only after a lot work someone becomes somebody? If Obama becomes FDR it will great for al of us, but medals are awarded only after the war not before it starts.

    Parent
    exactly (none / 0) (#164)
    by Tano on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:31:04 PM EST
    FDR's nickname, when he first ran, was Ol' Featherduster - ie. a lightweight empty suit. An eloquent speaker, but not a figher.

    Parent
    I can tell (none / 0) (#78)
    by PlayInPeoria on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:29:33 PM EST
    you really enjoy this! :+}

    What about the Supreme Court? Do you think he would fight for the one(s) we need (liberal).

    Parent

    I expect he will make a sound choice (none / 0) (#91)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:37:33 PM EST
    I can not imagine he will not.

    Parent
    But will he fight? (none / 0) (#137)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:10:49 PM EST
    FDR (none / 0) (#236)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:08:34 AM EST
    How  ya  figure  Obama  is our  FDR  if  Clinton is  the  one  building  the  majority  with the  FDR  voters?

    Parent
    Obama presidency (none / 0) (#17)
    by magster on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:50:02 PM EST
    will be more progressive, because the record youth turnout from his candidacy will lead to bigger Democratic majorities in Congress.

    Not if Obama does not urge Dem voting (4.50 / 2) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:50:48 PM EST
    which he can not do and retain his post-partisan appeal.

    Parent
    In Bill Clinton's presidency (none / 0) (#163)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:30:05 PM EST
    we got NAFTA, WTO, media mergers. That was accomplished by Clinton forming a coalition with right-wing Dems and the Republicans.

    When Hillary starts publically bad-mouthing Bill about these things then I'll start considering whether she's to the left of Obama.

    Whoever is President will have to bend to the will of the Congress. If it's filled with more liberal Dems then we'll get a better healthcare plan. Nothing's written in stone now, and no one can guarantee anything.

    Parent

    Which. . . (4.50 / 2) (#184)
    by LarryInNYC on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:53:51 PM EST
    That was accomplished by Clinton forming a coalition with right-wing Dems and the Republicans.

    is exactly the electoral approach that Obama is pursuing, is it not?

    Parent

    Which.... (none / 0) (#237)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:13:05 AM EST
    Indeed  it is, Larry.   EXACTLY  Obama's  electoral  approach.  I  think BTD's  right: Obama, elected,  will  cave,  trying  to show himself  as  a  "bipartisan uniter."  

    Only  Clinton  is building  the  FDR  traditional   coalition   to produce   a  strong  mandate.  

    Parent

    Will youth vote down ticket? (none / 0) (#63)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:17:37 PM EST
    The 2000 election showed that a lot of new, young voters didn't know much beyond the general election -- and voted for president but not in other races.

    Parent
    I hadn't heard that (none / 0) (#73)
    by magster on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:25:54 PM EST
    about young voters not voting down ticket.  Do you have a source?  I thought the problem before was that the youth vote never fulfilled its promise as much as they have for Obama in these primaries.

    Parent
    this is pipe dream stuff (none / 0) (#136)
    by english teacher on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:10:41 PM EST
    if you go into a general election proclaiming an incoming progressive mandate based on the youth vote, working people over forty will go to the polls in droves.  

    it may be obama's agenda to enact truly meaningful progressive legislation, but if he gets packaged as the leader of a youth movement, he is toast in the general election.

    Parent

    Interesting (none / 0) (#20)
    by Kathy on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:50:56 PM EST
    as usual.

    Time has an unusual take with an accompanying photo that will give most of us nightmares.

    The suggestions in Time article are not bad, but (none / 0) (#156)
    by TomLincoln on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:24:00 PM EST
    the last one --an Edwards endorsement-- I think may go Obama's way. CNN has a story - Edwards meeting with Clinton, Obama on endorsement - which somehow makes me think he will be endorsing Obama. I hope not, but I think it may come out that way.

    Parent
    Not bad, however... (none / 0) (#22)
    by Lora on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:51:30 PM EST
    I think the Repubs will run the dirtiest campaign ever (and by far the dirtiest election ever) regardless of who is the Democratic nominee.

    I maintain that the only way a repub will end the war in Iraq is with another war (Iran) to take its place.  I do think both Clinton and Obama ought to be capable of preventing an Iran debacle on top of the Iraq debacle too, but I don't foresee any quick ending to the war in Iraq with either one of them in office.

    If (none / 0) (#70)
    by IndependantThinker on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:24:58 PM EST
    Corporate America thinks it will do better with Obama than with McCain then Obama will be spared the attacks.  Word will be passed, palms will be greased.  We will have to wait and see.

    Parent
    But Obama is a democrat (none / 0) (#103)
    by Lora on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:46:49 PM EST
    Corporate America wants a Democrat over a Republican?  I don't see it.  If Obama is that well-liked by Corporate America that they would hold their fire in a presidential campaign, then what are we doing supporting him?  

    Parent
    Don't you think the turnout he generates will (none / 0) (#23)
    by halstoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:51:50 PM EST
    make his coattails longer than they may naturally be? Also, Obama is still the most liberal Senator, so I tend to think he'll work a little harder for progressive change than you may think if elected.

    For the primary, I think Obama wins out February like they both admit, then works TX really hard to prove his chops with Latinos, makes it close, then carries OH on the strength of Cleveland (blacks), Columbus (elites), and a strong organization in the other college towns like Dayton. PA goes to Hillary, but Obama makes it a draw again, making it impossible for her to overtake his lead once he takes it this month.

    General: He beats McCain all around, 270 is not a problem, and the turnout he brings does add to the Democratic Congress, making it easier for him to govern (his ruling majority theory). I think Iraq proves harder to get out of than we admit right now, and he doesn't go as far on healthcare as we would like, but he does improve our image around the globe, doing good work on weapons and disease, and has a solid two terms.

    For Hillary, she could surprise him in WI, proving the theory that bigger states just don't work for him, she keeps her Latino vote in TX, and then the SD's make it clear to Obama that he has to get out of the way.

    The GE will be ugly, but she comes away not as battered as she could have been. She'll move hard to the center, following her husband's lead, maybe staying a little left of him, but she does lose the midterms, gets tangled in GOP scandal hunt, and does lose in 4 years. Romney will be there to make good on his earned favors, and the Clintons go back to writing books and making speeches, doing the kind of good work they're really made for.

    It's a seat of the pants thing, and a lot hopeful b/c I do like Obama a lot, but it could happen, right? Now tell me how the answer is no.

    My thoughts: (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by dk on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:10:47 PM EST
    It is irrelevant whether Obama personally holds progressive beliefs (he probably does).

    His victories are based on 1) the youth vote and 2) the independent vote.  Neither of these groups are economically progressive.  They may be progressive on social issues for the most part, but not on economic issues such as health care.  Youth, on the whole, do NOT want universal health care because it means they would have to pay the bills for the old and sick.

    My prediction:  Obama would get stem cell reserach, but compromise with the religious wing by agreeing to religious school vouchers and funding for faith based organizations.  No meaningful health care reform.  Compromise on tax cuts by enacting middle class tax cuts and leaving some (though not all) of the Bush tax cuts in place.

    Parent

    Any Dem President Should Be Able (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by MO Blue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:06:33 PM EST
    to expand the S-Chip program without much trouble. After that, not sure what else would be considered low hanging fruit.

    Parent
    So you think he's talking smack about the (none / 0) (#183)
    by halstoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:53:20 PM EST
    CSPAN negotiations?

    See, I think Obama will really stand up for all the things he believes, and he believes those things now with the youth vote, so why would he change later after they've given that vote?

     I know he won't get 100% of his agenda, but I do think he will get more of his than she would.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:56:08 PM EST
    His turnout is not of committed Democrats.

    Indeed, that is the theory of Obama's appeal - Obamacans and Indies.

    You can;t have it both ways Obama supporters.

    Parent

    I'm also counting on party unity (none / 0) (#38)
    by halstoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:02:49 PM EST
    in the fall. Are a lot of the Clinton people going to stay home if she loses?

    Aside from attacking his willingness to talk, I haven't heard much talk about Obama not really being a progressive. Are you saying he's a DINO? Do we have those?

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:04:36 PM EST
    if you read my post "Clinton and Obama Need Each other in a GE" you'll see that I think that needs to be the ticket.

    I think Obama on the top is the most electable combo.

    Parent

    If she would agree to that, that would be awesome. (none / 0) (#47)
    by halstoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:08:40 PM EST
    Making her his point in the Senate to use her legislative muscle also works. I think she'll work hard for him, and him for her, so I don't see either of them losing the GE.

    Parent
    She has to agree (none / 0) (#60)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:15:35 PM EST
    the question is does OBAMA agree?

    Parent
    That may not be enough for some voters (none / 0) (#61)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:16:13 PM EST
    like Obama super-delegate Donna Brazille, who will leave the party if he doesn't top the ticket.

    And the other way around, we won't know. Polls show resistant to Obama by some Clinton supporters, but they won't be so public about it as Brazille and Michelle Obama in saying their support is iffy.  

    If he sticks his foot in his mouth one more time with misogynistic comments, it could cost him a lot of women who could stay home.  Maybe there already has been one comment too many.  But you won't know until November, because women won't make a big fuss about it.  They just will stay at work for the pay -- because they and their families need it the most.

    Now, he could turn that around.  He could speak out against the misogyny in the media.  He could speak up for the ERA.  Etc., etc.  But he won't, because he could have done so by now and didn't.


    Parent

    He could also speak up for (none / 0) (#86)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:34:03 PM EST
    Roe v. Wade, but I doubt he will.  McCain is definitely pro life.  

    Parent
    He could, yes, by talking about the Court (none / 0) (#90)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:37:10 PM EST
    appointments to come, but he won't do that, either.

    Parent
    I must've missed the foot in mouth (none / 0) (#119)
    by halstoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:00:47 PM EST
    What did he say?

    Parent
    Oh, my, here we go again (none / 0) (#128)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:06:57 PM EST
    "likeable enough," "tea parties," etc.  Plus The Other of the Two Obamas' comments on HRC's "tone," etc.  I lost my list, but it was a long one from  other threads.

    Parent
    Will you tell me something? (none / 0) (#149)
    by halstoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:20:09 PM EST
    How can he criticize her without being misogynist? It seems they both have that invisible cloak that shocks anyone who dares lay a hand on them.

    If you criticize him, you're racist. Don't like her? It's misogyny.

    Parent

    partly the media (none / 0) (#155)
    by dissenter on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:23:23 PM EST
    They have been over the top with the anti-woman comments. And when they do that - while at the same time talking in glowing terms about Obama it pisses women off. Big style.

    His supporters haven't helped his case. I watched them yell down women at my caucus - basically calling them stupid because they wanted universal health care. It was truly astonishing.

    Parent

    Which state? City? That's awful -- (none / 0) (#167)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:33:27 PM EST
    and so much for the caucuses that we're told are so good at being party-building.

    Parent
    Yep, Big Style (none / 0) (#198)
    by MO Blue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:28:33 PM EST
    Supporters ticking women off and talking down to people as though they are stupid is going to hurt Obama in Nov.

    Parent
    He doesn't have to. The media speaks for (none / 0) (#159)
    by Teresa on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:25:12 PM EST
    him. And when he does criticize her (and he does) they don't talk about it.

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#160)
    by dissenter on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:27:18 PM EST
    I agree with that also

    Parent
    You don't criticize her or him -- (none / 0) (#165)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:32:09 PM EST
    you criticize their policies.  The problem is that their policies are similar -- although not as similar as he claims, since he says (saw it on CNN today) that they both proposed universal health care.

    And no one called him on it -- not that I saw.  Maybe she did, but not to media coverage I've seen.  I wonder if Edwards saw that claim, with him meeting Obama this week. . . .

    Parent

    So without mandates (none / 0) (#176)
    by halstoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:44:59 PM EST
    it's not universal? They both play semantics on that issue. Plus, neither can promise that they'll get it done. She's failed once before, and he's not tested, as you all are so nice to point out.

    Cream city, I wish people did focus on their policies. Instead, he's bashed as some Svengali Jim Jones figure, called a poltical lightweight, a hypocrite (unsubstantiated), and on and on.

    I've noted my opposition to Hillary on the following:

    Nukes, land mines, cluster bombs, Cuba, needle exchange, war on drugs (this one him too), transparency, diplomacy, UN, Iran, and mandates.

    But in return all I get is called a Messiah worshiper. And lately the attacks based on race (particularly playing up the white vote against Obama)have just gotten worse and worse.

    I will vote for HRC if she wins, but based on the behavior of her supporters here, I would not say I'd be enthusiastic about it.

    As for the caucus experience, I'm sorry about that. That's really unfortunate.


    Parent

    Clinton people, as in activists, for the most part (none / 0) (#82)
    by RalphB on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:30:41 PM EST
    will not stay home.  However, she turns out a large contingent of single women and working class dems which could, and I imagine will, not vote if she's not on the ticket.  As a rule, this demographic does not vote in meaningful numbers anymore and I think they go back to normal behavior.

    I wouldn't be surprised if they don't make the difference between winning and losing in some swing states.  A combined ticket may be the only way to keep this group involved and I can't imagine Clinton running for VP.  But I can't imagine a lot of things happening which surprise me when they do  :-)

    Parent

    Give me your math (none / 0) (#33)
    by dissenter on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:57:47 PM EST
    How is Barack Obama going to win a GE.

    He can't get the majority of the white vote in a primary state. He gets less than 22% of the senior vote. Latinos will split as they don't really dislike McCain that much. He has pissed off the dems that voted in Florida by wanting to throw out their votes. He can't peel off the Cuban vote cuz he will meet with dictators most seniors and Cubans don't want him meeting with just to see what happens. Women are getting increasingly pissed off at his campaign. His followers think poor and middle class voter are stupid (you know - low information voters).

    Tell me how this man wins FL and OH cuz I do not see the numbers to make it so. Also, McCain could cost the dems ME and NH. Where are you making those states up?

    Parent

    So HRC voters won't come out?? (none / 0) (#43)
    by halstoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:06:52 PM EST
    If they do, Democrats should sweep the fall. I would hope you all will come out for the party if not for Obama. Abandoning him is not the answer. Supporting him and then holding him accountable is a better strategy for the Clinton crowd.

    Have I missed something here?? I didn't realize the Clinton crowd was literally so anti-Obama.

    Personally, I'll be there for Hillary if she beats him.

    So yeah, he should win FL, OH, the Northeast, West Coast, North (MN,WI,IL). That is if the HRC crowd doesn't punish the party.

    Parent

    You didn't answer the question (none / 0) (#48)
    by dissenter on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:08:56 PM EST
    Winning is about numbers. End of story. Where is your math to pull this off. Inspiration isn't getting you there.

    My mother, a rock solid dem despises BO so much she will only vote down ballot if he is on it. This is because of health care and social security issues. You aren't winning FL if you can't get seniors to vote for you and you come out against their interests.

    Parent

    I'm gonna stick with the snarky mood (none / 0) (#135)
    by halstoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:10:33 PM EST
    and avoid specifics, like my personal Saviour, Barack Hesavedme Obama...

    Parent
    "If HRC supporters don't (none / 0) (#85)
    by IndependantThinker on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:32:14 PM EST
    punish the party."

    Well, I guess will just have to wait until November. We do know, because Obama said so, that he will get HRC supporters, but she would not get his.

    Parent

    Well That Should Settle The Question (none / 0) (#120)
    by MO Blue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:02:55 PM EST
    If Obama say that HRC supporters will definitely vote for him, it has to be true. His word is gospel. Don't ya know.

    Parent
    Yes, it is, and I'll be waiting for him at the (none / 0) (#131)
    by halstoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:08:47 PM EST
    top of the temple mount on election day, for he will come to deliver us home.

    Praise Barack, Michelle, and Holy Hope!!

    Has anyone noticed how this venue has become the exact opposite of the real world?

    In here, it's Mother Hillary and St. William vs. Dirty Barack and Bamboozled Michelle.

    Beware false prophets! --Obama 2:14

    Parent

    And the Vietnam veterans have yet (none / 0) (#55)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:11:38 PM EST
    to have one of their own in the White House.

    This will be big for McCain, believe me.  Look at the impact of WWII veterans for decades and many presidents.  

    Parent

    And Not Just Vietnam Vets (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by dissenter on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:24:28 PM EST
    I spent a year in Iraq and 8 months this year in Afghanistan (civilian USAID projects). My brother is  National Guard (currently in Kabul). I spend a lot of time with military. They are not against this war as a whole. They think it is totally screwed up but they blame Bush not the action.

    McCain is a hero on two levels - he is a war hero and he is socially conservative which is what our military predominantly is today. I would go down to the base to eat with my brother and they MWR would be full of people rocking out to Christian rock music. It was beyond weird. My non-religious brother is now religious. So, he doesn't just have retired guys and gals, he has active personnel.

    One of my best friends in the military is totally pro-choice, liberal on most every level but she will vote for McCain too. She likes him - he is part of her tribe.

    Parent

    Good point; thanks -- (none / 0) (#87)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:34:33 PM EST
    and for your service, too.  I was married to a Viet vet.  He has voted Dem, he probably will again . . . but because of the economy.  If he sees that McCain improves on that, he could go back to the bonding moments in the jungles in that horrific war.

    And we see it again in this one -- so many giving so much for so little, and not getting thanked enough.  But with one of their own in the White House, they would feel they were getting recognition, at last.

    Parent

    Not necessarily one of us (none / 0) (#117)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:57:54 PM EST
    Kerry was one of us.  And by us I mean those Vets who dislike war having lived it.  Remember you can not paint Vietnam Vets with one brush anymore that you can any Demographics.  And don't thank me please I was drafted.

    Parent
    Maybe the Organizations (none / 0) (#65)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:18:19 PM EST
    like the American Legion and VFW etc.  But a lot of us Vietnam Veterans are against the war.  Specially one we have been lied into.  Remember we were lied into Vietnam too.  By the way many of my friends are ex POW's and they don't necessarily consider McCain a hero.  Kerry was not an anomaly, as far as Vietnam vets is concerned a lot of us became anti-war activist after we returned.

    Parent
    Absolutely, and VVAW was crucial (none / 0) (#124)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:04:50 PM EST
    as well I remember as an antiwar activist, too.  Before I married a Viet vet, and he came home anti that war, too.

    But over time . . . the situation of so many Viet vets (fortunately, he has done okay) has made it more and more important him that there be a president who will take care of those from that was and this one, too.  

    He really doesn't think that McCain will stay in Iraq, either.  I don't know why he thinks that, but -- there 'tis.  

    Parent

    Yes but remember our age (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:17:18 PM EST
    most of us Viet vets are between 50-70 years old near the social security age or already collecting like my brother.  Republicans in power at this time and that includes McCain want to gut the system.  We also have a lot of chronic health problems which are not being addressed by the Republican Health Plans nor the way they have underfunded the VA.  You may think we have the VA but not all veterans have a VA near them or are getting the benefits they may deserve.  As I stated before Vietnam Veterans are a complex demographic and should never be painted with one broad brush.

    Parent
    Again, I married one of you guys (none / 0) (#162)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:29:27 PM EST
    so I know you're now the Viagra generation. :-)

    And you also would have to tell this to my ex -- to other vets, too.  He thinks that a vet would fix the VA (we happen to be near one, but I know from volunteering there that many are not nearby a VA and have to come from afar for ours) and vets' benefits.

    And of course, no group so huge as the guys (and some women) who were in the Vietnam War all think alike; our generation didn't then and doesn't now, nor do all of you.  But that was true of the WWII vets -- and even some of them meant enough of a difference to help elect fellow vets, from a GOP president, then a Dem president, then another Dem president (who acceded to the post), then a GOP president, to another Dem president, then another GOP president (who acceded to the post), and I've not even gotten to all of them.

    It is a different time.  But is it that different?  We don't know.  But I bet that being a vet -- and a POW -- will help McCain, maybe more than being prowar will hurt him.  And he won't get swiftboated for it like Kerry did, because we don't play that way.

    Parent

    Vet/military (none / 0) (#239)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:24:31 AM EST
    Agree  completely.  

    Obama's  lack of  any  experience in  military affairs/Armed  Services/actually  serving   will  MATTER   to male  votes.  

    They're  thinking   Commander in Chief....and Obama  doesn't  have  the qualifications  they think he  should.  

    BIG  issue.

    Parent

    Oh, that's true. Hadn't thought about it like that (none / 0) (#121)
    by halstoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:03:47 PM EST
    IIRC In One Of The Debates (none / 0) (#97)
    by MO Blue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:41:41 PM EST
    he made a statement something to the effect of decreasing the influence of the NRO.

    Now I don't disagree with the idea, but it will get NRO out in real force and turn off a lot of  "don't mess with my gun" folks.

    The best and maybe only chance Obama has in winning the GE is if the Focus On The Family groups really mean they will not vote for McCain. If this is just a ploy to get more concessions out of him and they fall in line, Obama has a very rough ride.

    The media has a long standing love affair with McCain and I think he will lose his Media Darling status soon after he wins the nomination.

    Parent

    Should Read NRA n/t (none / 0) (#170)
    by MO Blue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:35:50 PM EST
    BTD are you saying that the candidate (none / 0) (#24)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:52:14 PM EST
    who says he was against the war will not get us out of the war?

    No (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:55:11 PM EST
    I said either will.

    Do I have a typo?

    Parent

    No you didn't (none / 0) (#44)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:07:00 PM EST
    I misread.

    Parent
    Not factoring in Senate gains (none / 0) (#29)
    by dwightkschrute on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:56:20 PM EST
    A few things here...

    First off, Clinton or Obama coattails aside all indications are there will be a gain of around 4 seats in the Senate. This will make certain things much easier to pass for whichever of them wins.

    The McCaskill stuff is just out and out false, repealing the Bush tax cuts was part of her platform she ran on to beat Talent in Missouri. She's been a little more squishy on the Health Care issue, but she's for Medicare negotiating to lower drug prices,  against limiting federal Medicare spending, for  expanding Medicare, and memorably for stem cell research. So she certainly leans in the right way on a lot of health care areas.

    I count 3 Senate gains (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:59:28 PM EST
    Shaheen, Warner and the guy in New Mexico, Udall.

    Maybe Obama helps get the Udall cousin in Colorado across the line.

    That could be 4.

    On McCaskill, I was snarking. Heck, I do not know what Ben Nelson will do on it.

    Parent

    Well you were right on Nelson (none / 0) (#40)
    by dwightkschrute on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:04:50 PM EST
    At least in the sense he voted for the tax cuts. Not sure he would lead the fight, but it's fair to assume he may vote to extend them.

    Not everyone picks up on snark, so just wanted to make sure misconceptions on McCaskill weren't propagated.

    Parent

    Fair enough (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:05:51 PM EST
    oh and Senate gains (none / 0) (#56)
    by dwightkschrute on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:12:01 PM EST
    I think between Shaheen, Warner, Udall (NM), Udall (CO), Merkley (OR), Franken (MN), and Allen (ME), with the expected high Dem turnout 4 seems extremely likely.

    Parent
    I have no confidence except for the 4 (none / 0) (#59)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:14:34 PM EST
    I mentioned.

    Maine we will NOT win. Period. Nor Oregon. Dems in Congress let Gordon Smith off the hook.

    something tells me Franken won't win in Minnesota. Seems too much of  gimmick candidate, thought that is utterly unfair. Franken knows more than most of the Senators now.

    Parent

    I don't think (none / 0) (#31)
    by cannondaddy on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:57:38 PM EST
    either will get us out of Iraq completely.  I don't know what evidence you have that Hillary would where Obama wouldn't.

    Second time that has been said (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:00:07 PM EST
    I predict BOTH of them will end our involvement in the Debacle itself.

    Parent
    BTD, off-topic and back to ME but (none / 0) (#49)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:09:10 PM EST
    see mainetoday.com for reports of real problems in caucuses in Portland -- Maine's biggest city?  

    People given absentee ballots, finally, to clear them out.  I wonder if those (and others could vote absentee there before caucuses, which seems to defeat the purpose of caucuses) have been counted?

    Parent

    Sounds weird (none / 0) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:12:46 PM EST
    What is the difference at this point, except to accuse Clinton of voter suppression?

    Kid Oakland was in this thread so I am sure he will have the accusation ready to go soon.

    Parent

    Mostly agreed (none / 0) (#46)
    by muffie on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:07:51 PM EST
    I definately differ on the Bush tax cuts.  If we had to fight for repeal, maybe, but the sunset provision kicks in on its on.

    I'm also not sure how easy it is to quantify the "coattails" phenomenon.  You have to compare how the other candidate might have done.  You also don't mention that the Republicans have had years to work themselves up into an anti-Clinton fevor, driving out the base.  I'm not sure they can replicate that quite so quickly against Obama.  (But this may just be my bias shining through.)

    Finally, I absolutely agree that we should watch out for Bobby Jindal running sometime in the future.

    What I'm worried about (none / 0) (#50)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:09:24 PM EST
    is the environment.  Neither seems to have a good track record although Hilary has talked a little better on this one.  

    Samer here on the Great Lakes (none / 0) (#80)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:29:47 PM EST
    which are in serious trouble, and we can't get attention to the need to go forward with the Great Lakes compact -- among the states and with Canada, which is justifiably getting impatient with us.

    (Btw, latest theory is that this next disaster also was brought to you by the Army Corps of Engineers in their dredging for the seaway, the same ones who did such a bang-up job on the levees in New Orleans.)

    The only candidate to speak about the Great Lakes situation was Richardson, and he infuriated us and our media and blogs by blithely saying he would go after our declining water levels to water the lawns of the Southwest.

    And both of our remaining candidates represent Great Lakes states, the lakes that are crucial to economies of Illinois and New York as much as any of us.  Not a word that I can find.

    Btw, if we want to win back Michigan hearts and minds, keep in mind that it's the only one of us with four of the Great Lakes on its borders.  And in it and Wisconsin, with two Great Lakes, tourism is a leading industry (the leading one in Wisconsin).  The tourism industry is in trouble already because of lake levels, and it's getting worse.  A lot of businesses rely on the lakes, too.  There won't be a flooding of a city, there won't be the collapse of a bridge, but what will it take to see the incremental disaster coming?

    Parent

    Who knows? (none / 0) (#51)
    by Seneca on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:10:24 PM EST
    Fooolish really to speculate with any kind of confidence about what will happen with, respectively, a Clinton and an Obama presidency. So many factors one could never possibly anticipate or account for...

    IN ANY CASE...

    The idea that an Obama presidency would compromise liberal principles beyond recognition is little more than a Clintonite talking point. Obama's history shows that, ideologically, he is as progressive as they get. Big Tent's Fallacy is the idea that you can only achieve what you want by demonizing the opponent; Obama intends to both fight for core liberal principles and, at the same time, remain civil.

    What Obama-haters are unable to envision is the possibility of a reformed and rejuvenated political discourse in this country. This is not a high-flown slogan, but actually a concrete goal: for the American people to not have to decipher the spin their leaders spew, for Americans to believe again that politicians are not just high-paid rhetoricians but actual leaders. The Clintons, for all the good they did, embody the kind of secretive, duplicitous governance that Obama wants to liberate us from. In sum, it's not just about the actual policy differences between Obama and Hillary, it also about differing ideas about what it means to be a leader.

    What is voting but speculating? (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:11:22 PM EST
    Right (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by Steve M on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:13:41 PM EST
    In other words, Jimmy Carter.  There's a reason why many of us feel we've seen this movie before.

    What I find cute is that you're criticizing BTD for having no basis for his predictions, but you don't even realize that you're the one asking everyone to take a GIGANTIC LEAP OF FAITH that Obama can somehow make politics function differently than it has ever functioned in the history of our nation.

    Now, maybe he can, and it would be great, but I happen to think it's not the smart way to bet.  The genius of the "hope" message is that it encourages people like you to respond to criticisms of this sort simply by saying, "Boo! Boo! How dare you say it can't be done!"  Well, maybe history will indeed prove me to have been a visionless cynic.

    Parent

    OK let me understand this (none / 0) (#157)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:24:22 PM EST
    Obama is going to take us away from politics as usual.  Yet, his voting record shows him going along with the DLC line in most votes.  He backs the use of Coal (a very dirty source of energy) and Nuclear.  Voted to continue funding the war as did most democrats in congress. I could go on but I don't like lengthly posts.

    Parent
    Obama progressive (none / 0) (#240)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:30:31 AM EST
    You  need  to google  Exelon  and  find out   just  how often  Obama   caves  to  corporations.

    Parent
    Jindal catch 22 (none / 0) (#68)
    by dwightkschrute on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:24:28 PM EST
    Hard to see how Bobby Jindal can overcome the New Orleans predicament. If it's not rebuilt well it's a glaring lack of accomplishment. But to help ensure it's rebuilt well will require working well with LOTS of Democrats, which will surely piss Republicans off.

    Oh and that's not to mention, what part of the current Republican party cheerleaders do you see as being cool with the son of Punjabi Indian immigrants as their nominee?

    That was snark too (none / 0) (#71)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:24:59 PM EST
    I hear ya (none / 0) (#92)
    by dwightkschrute on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:37:33 PM EST
    But some commenters were agreeing with it as if it were logical, not everyone saw your tongue wedged firmly into your cheek.

    Parent
    Back for a second with another Alexa (none / 0) (#72)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:25:34 PM EST
    This one was truly interesting.

    Click the link below.  On the graph, note what happens to all the web sites I've shown in the last couple of days -- with the exception of TalkLeft.  Talkleft is at the very bottom right of the graph, black line, not that noticeable...but the important thing is the TREND.  It's JUST THE OPPOSITE of the other web sites!  Take a look!

    Alexa link

    Nice to find a win somewhere ;->


    Interesting trend (5.00 / 2) (#204)
    by Sima on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:41:37 PM EST
    Could it reflect people abandoning those other sites for a more reasoned discourse?

    I have basically left dailykos because of that.  I don't mind hearing reasoned analysis about the election, whether it favors Obama, Clinton or McCain.  I do mind being blasted with obscenities, told I'm stupid, having front pagers denigrate and belittle my worries... well you get the drift.

    I came here because it's reasoned, well thought and a good place to actually learn.  Disclosure:  I'm an Edwards democrat who caucused for Clinton yesterday.

    Parent

    I'm sure you share (5.00 / 1) (#227)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 08:29:05 AM EST
    many of our feelings.

    I'll be surprised if DailyKOS completely recovers from this.

    Parent

    I started coming here (5.00 / 1) (#250)
    by Lena on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 11:31:28 AM EST
    too after I jumped the dailykos ship.

    Every once in a while I look back there to see what's going on, but I do so less and less frequently.

    For the record, I gradually became a Clinton supporter after learning that Clark wasn't entering the contest. I'm definitely not a fanatic supporter this election cycle, so I appreciate the reasoned discussion here, mostly with no insults.

    Talkleft has become my homepage too.

    Parent

    Forgot to mention (none / 0) (#81)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:30:06 PM EST
    One site I graphed, pepsi.com, doesn't really fit with the others.  I list it anyway, because I find it interesting that pepsi and mydd are practically soulmates in rankings.  In addition, pepsi is a HUGE company, and probably gets mega-hits, so it gives you an idea of just how huge the Democratic blog sites are.  

    Parent
    Obama will privatize SS. (none / 0) (#74)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:28:01 PM EST
    THat's my grand prediction. Of course he will come up with a name for it, but by  ending SS as we know it, he will make a bargain with Republicans to pass other parts of his agenda.

    What is his stand (none / 0) (#106)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:47:27 PM EST
    on Social Security I am not sure if the quotes I've read on this subject as coming from him are accurate.

    Parent
    Social security is in "crisis." (none / 0) (#143)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:15:06 PM EST
    ohh yes (none / 0) (#173)
    by Jgarza on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:40:08 PM EST
    he said crisis and everyone know that is a republican code word for privatizing social security, and killing off old people.

    only republicans say crisis, they own the word.

    Parent

    sorry, that is ridiculous (none / 0) (#181)
    by Tano on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:51:06 PM EST
    there are legions of people who feel that SS is a problem that NEEDS to be addressed if one is to be responsible - and many of them use the term "crisis".

    The notion that crisis=privitazation is ludicrous.
    Privitazation is OFF THE TABLE. You had a newly reelected GOP president with a GOP house and a GOP Senate, and they could not do it. That alignment aint gonna happen again any time soon.
    Privitization is as dead as any polcy proposal could possibly be.

    Parent

    Tano (none / 0) (#242)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:36:28 AM EST
    Not   true, Tano.    His  economic  advisors  are  clearly  supply-side  Milton  Friedman  supporters    who  are FOR   partial  privatization.   They're  also FOR  more  free  trade  agreements.

    Parent
    Silly (none / 0) (#185)
    by IndependantThinker on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:54:27 PM EST
    ppl. The original poster wanted to know what Obama's stand was on SS. Oculus said SS is in crisis. Get it, that's Obama stand = no stand. oculus can correct me if I missed the joke.

    Parent
    I think I've been reading way too (none / 0) (#188)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:03:35 PM EST
    much BTD.  I may have it wrong, but I think BTD says "crisis" is a Republican talking point, which Obama, whom BTD tepidly supports, should not be parroting.  There is no "crisis" if Obama is a true Dem.  

    Parent
    His rhetoric on UHC supports (none / 0) (#201)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:34:05 PM EST
    my theory, as does the fact that his economics advisers are pro-privatization.

    Parent
    Yep, Opened That Door Real Wide (none / 0) (#174)
    by MO Blue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:43:17 PM EST
    after the Dems spent a year to close it.

    Parent
    given that (none / 0) (#202)
    by Tano on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:40:59 PM EST
    his only pronouncement on the subject was to discuss raising the taxation cap - the most progressive of all the alternatives...

    and given that not even Republicans are dreaming of privitizing it anymore, given that complete flop that it was when they held all the levers of power...

    I think your grand prediction is totally nuts.

    Parent

    You don't understand: (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:26:02 PM EST
    SS should NOT be based on a progressive taxation scheme: that is fundamental.
    Now, can taxes be tweaked? Yes, but praising him for being progressive about the tax increase is missing the point.
    Moreover, raising the cap creates a temporary surplus which could be used to start personal accounts. This is an idea from J. Liebman, one of Obama's economic advisers.

    Parent
    whoa, you are confusing two uses (none / 0) (#213)
    by Tano on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:11:25 AM EST
    of the term progressive.
    I meant it in terms of being most in line with the values of the progessive movement.

    Of course, it is also ever-so-slightly more progressive in the "progressive tax" sense, but it is hardly a move to base SS on a progressive taxation basis. How could you imagine that? It would still be a flat tax with a somewhat higher limit.

    You seem to approve of tweaking the tax regime. So what the heck do you mean by that? Raising taxes on everyone under the same cap as today? Thats about the only other tweak I can think of, and I wonder why you would think that would be preferable.

    As for the temporary surplus - I dont follow your logic. We have a temporary surplus now. That hasnt helped the privitization forces one bit. Are you advocating that we tune the system so that there never is a surplus? That makes no sense. The surplus (i.e. the trust fund) is our greatest ally. We make the case that the trust fund will be sufficient till 2041, hence the crisis is easily manageable. Raising the tax ceiling a bit pushes that out much further.

    By advocating that we have no surplus you are marching headlong into an environment where the opposition will argue (and it will be credible to most average people) that the system is really going bankrupt very soon.

    It is this point - the supposed unsustainability argument that won privitization most of the support that it had out in the country.

    But the bottom line here is that using the privitaztion bugaboo to pound Obama for his word choice is the most mindless kind of fear mongering possible. The GOP could not advance privitization when they controlled everything. And they know it. Its prospects now are at absolute zero.

    Parent

    If their main accomplishment is ending Iraq, (none / 0) (#75)
    by Compound F on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:28:11 PM EST
    with little else to show, then they will have failed us completely.  Ending Iraq is merely the first of many, many big bold steps required to transform our future; necessary, but not sufficient.  Our real challenges revolve around issues of carrying capacity, which we have not even begun to acknowledge, much less address.  That is one of the most depressing prognoses I can imagine.  We've already blown nearly a decade since Bush vs. Gore.  I guess we know the answer to Jared Diamond's question about why societies collapse: We are a fatally short-sighted species.

    Unfortunately- it looks more and more (none / 0) (#77)
    by kenosharick on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:29:19 PM EST
    like Obama will be the nominee. Some security/terror incident is likely to bring national security into focus as a major issue and the American people will look at the choice of Obama/mccain and go with experience.

    Theory (none / 0) (#99)
    by Coldblue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:44:32 PM EST
    Nothing changes except the name tags.

    A very good possibility indeed. (none / 0) (#105)
    by RalphB on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:47:23 PM EST
    Or (none / 0) (#104)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:47:19 PM EST
    Obama energizes 18-29-year-olds to become politically involved (in a way Hillary does not). They do so on a scale not seen for generations, supporting overwhelmingly Democratic and especially progressive issues, policies and causes, producing a realignment in American society back toward its progressive founding principles. And of course reelecting him by greater margins in 2012. They force the progressive issues through because they've come to believe "they can."

    If the young voters instead lapse into apathy and fail to remain politically engaged because they haven't been inspired to, America continues down the nondemocratic path it's currently on.

    An engaged political outlook formed in today's polarized conditions will carry on for the rest of their lives, producing, over time, from younger voters, a long-term progressive Dem majority that laughs the few remaining Bush-style "conservatives" off the stage of political viability (though libertarianism remains a potent current). Americans in 2099 look back fondly over the 21st century to the realignment election of 2008 that saved the country and put it back on its true course. :)

    Politically engaged to do (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:49:17 PM EST
    what? this is always the question with Barack Obama.

    The potential is enormous. The substance is always my concern.

    Parent

    Stuff. (5.00 / 0) (#129)
    by LarryInNYC on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:07:10 PM EST
    Good stuff.

    Because we can.

    (But not stuff that might cost money).

    Parent

    Ponies For Everyone n/t (none / 0) (#175)
    by MO Blue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:44:50 PM EST
    Better than kittens. Keep talkin'. (none / 0) (#187)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:55:34 PM EST
    They are already progressive on the issues (none / 0) (#122)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:03:57 PM EST
    overwhelmingly. They'll be empowered to force the progress. It's more than a matter of a mandate. It's more about empowering people to believe they can and should take control again instead of just retreating from the political sphere and focusing on their own personal material situation in isolation.

    BTW, the Jindal bit was hilarious.

    Parent

    hate to break it to you (none / 0) (#125)
    by english teacher on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:06:08 PM EST
    but that kind of rhetoric will go over like a ton of bricks in a general election.  

    Parent
    I'll bet you do (none / 0) (#134)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:09:54 PM EST
    That must be why he's turning out such crowds to get involved they can't fit them in the venues.

    Parent
    And with all those crowds (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by Steve M on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:20:27 PM EST
    he still hasn't emerged a clear victor in the Democratic primary, the place where all the progressives hang out!

    Obama is making amazing headlines but there is still a big difference between getting a mandate in the primary and getting a mandate in the GE.  And he doesn't even have the primary mandate yet.

    Parent

    He'd win American Idol though (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by RalphB on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:39:58 PM EST
    or a Moonie recruiting contest

    Parent
    The momentum is building (none / 0) (#223)
    by Alien Abductee on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:16:32 AM EST
    We'll just have to see. Nobody has a mandate yet.

    Parent
    The crowds are for his Grammy (none / 0) (#186)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:54:29 PM EST
    So he's going to have to get the next one for singing, with a CD released this week, if he wants to keep them.  Fans are so fickle.

    Parent
    Crutches (none / 0) (#209)
    by blogtopus on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:07:09 PM EST
    He's doing so well, he doesn't need those crowds, right?

    Or are the crowds all he has? What happens when they go home and think about what he said? Or when someone asks them what it is about his policies they like?

    I don't know; I get the feeling that people leave an Obama rally feeling like they finished eating 8 twinkies a couple hours ago and are just beginning to crash. My theory, no basis in fact. You know: "Obamesque".

    Parent

    or horrors they actually expect real change! (5.00 / 1) (#235)
    by hellothere on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:06:16 AM EST
    Crowds of voters you mean? (none / 0) (#222)
    by Alien Abductee on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:14:03 AM EST
    Getting lots of people to vote for you is what it's all about.

    As for what people think about after hearing him speak, well why don't you try it yourself? His speech in New Orleans on Thursday laid out how he sees government working with citizens for the common good. He's beginning to channel Edwards in terms of poverty and social justice. Watch it why don't you? You might find out it's your theory that's full of twinkies. video | transcript


    Parent

    Crowds (5.00 / 1) (#245)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:51:06 AM EST
    Don't  forget,  ALien,   that   Obama  had  huge  crowds  in New  Hampshire, too.  

    Come  to find  out,   lot  of  them were  just  people  from   Massachusetts   who  wanted  to  see  Obama  like a  rock  star,  and  couldn't  even  vote   in New  Hampshire.

    Same  with  the  California   Oprah  shows.  Lotta  the  attendees  came  to see  Oprah,  but  didn't  vote  FOR    Obama.  

    He  lost  New  Hampshire,  Masschusetts,  AND  California,  even with   "huge  crowds."

    Parent

    Young people (5.00 / 1) (#244)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:44:44 AM EST
    Except,  that  the  young people  he  engages  are  the  up-scale  wealthy young  adults.

    He does  NOT  engage   Hispanic  or  middle class  youth.  

    That's  what  happened  in  California  and  Massachusetts,  where  he lost  the  "young  people"  by  a large  margin.  

    In fact,  he   adjusted his insurance plan  to give   exactly those  young  up-scale  voters  the  chance  to OPT OUT  completely.  

    Parent

    Prediction (none / 0) (#130)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:08:41 PM EST
    Alien Abductee is actually an alien who will take us all to his environmentally conscious, healthcare rich, war-less planet where we'll all live happily ever after.

    Parent
    What? (none / 0) (#142)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:14:55 PM EST
    You don't want those things? Don't think Americans deserve them?

    I actually have the perspective of currently living outside the US in an environmentally conscious, healthcare rich, peace-loving country where people live pretty happily, so yeah, I think it's possible and would like it for my "homeland" too.

    Parent

    Huh? (none / 0) (#228)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 08:30:10 AM EST
    I actually DO want those things.

    Parent
    If Obama won't even come out and forcefully (none / 0) (#114)
    by athyrio on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:56:18 PM EST
    discuss liberal values now and he doesn't what makes you think he would govern that way...He isn't famous for "standing on his principles...

    Obama tops the Dem. ticket w/ (none / 0) (#127)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:06:49 PM EST
    HRC accepting the VP slot conditioned on Obama's promise to nominate her to SCOTUS.  A victory for women everywhere.

    Victory? (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:09:40 PM EST
    Or yet another case where the less experienced male gets the job instead of the more experienced female.

    Parent
    That is the problem with my hypothesis, but (none / 0) (#145)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:17:32 PM EST
    she quickly takes her place on SCOTUS.  

    Parent
    Maybe she doesn't want (none / 0) (#229)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 08:31:01 AM EST
    SCOTUS.

    She doesn't strike me as a nerdy SCOTUS judge.

    Parent

    sorry, but no 60 yr olds (none / 0) (#179)
    by Tano on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:46:48 PM EST
    on the SC.
    We need to play for keeps. As young as credibly possible.

    And why should Hillary be sitting around in a quiet room researching court cases? Seems like a dreadful use of her talents. And seems to imply that there are not qualified female legal minds out there.

    Hillary for Senate Majority Leader - that would be a great use of her skills.

    Parent

    I'm sharing this (none / 0) (#146)
    by thereyougo on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:17:47 PM EST
     because I think this is what is really going behind the scenes and its got Rove written all over it.

    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1680192,00.html

    in short, the Rs know Clinton is the stronger candidate of the two and are helping him along so that come the GE, they'll tear him to shreds.

    EVERYTHING will be tossed at him.

    Rove, etc (5.00 / 0) (#246)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:57:07 AM EST
    Fascinating   quote  from   Fox  News   last  Sunday, Juan  Williams  talking  to  Bill Kristol:

    "I think  Bill Kristol  is  being  very  supportive   of  Mr.  Obama,  but  you  have  an  agenda.  You  guys   think   it's  easy   to  beat  Barak  Obama  going  forward."  

    Peggy Noonan, George  Will, and  David  Brooks  playing  the  same  game  as    Kristol.  

    Don't forget  1972,  folks:   Rove  et  al  engineered   getting  rid of  Muskie  because  they  WANTED  to  run against  McGovern--easier  to beat.  

    Even  Pat  Buchanan  is  calling  Obama   the   "new  McGovern."  That's  what  he means.

    Parent

    6 Percent of registered Republicans voted for (none / 0) (#168)
    by Salt on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:34:29 PM EST
    John Kerry in 2004

    Parent
    I did (none / 0) (#177)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:45:32 PM EST
    I am a registered republican and I will vote for whoever is nominated by the Democrats in 2008.  I don't think our country can take to much moreof the neo-cons policies.  And believe McCain and Huck are just as bad if not worse than Bush.

    Parent
    Disagree with a lot of BTD's theories (none / 0) (#147)
    by Tano on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:18:48 PM EST
    Where to begin?

    No coattails for Obama.
    This seems very couter-intuitive. And it also is at complete variance with the opinions (far better informed than any of us) of actual Democrats out there, especially in the purple and red states. They very much want Obama on the ticket because they think he would help them downticket, and Hillary would be a disaster.

    Obama mandate based on nothing but ending War.

    This makes absolutely no sense to me. Obama will ahve no hesitation laying out an economic and social agenda. In fact, it is the obvious thing for him to do. Against McCain he merely needs to assure the country that he is basically competent on foreign policy, then he has the economic field pretty much to himself. McCain cannot argue credibly against the Dem economic program, so there will be no need to not put it forward prominently.

    Tax cuts and health compromised.

    This makes NO sense whatsoever. Obama will have expanded majorites in both the House and Senate. For the tax cuts to be extended, they need to pass Congress. How on earth do you think a Dem. Congress is going to pass such a bill? Remember, the tax cuts expire on their own if nothing is done.
    Same with health care. Who is Obama going to have to compromise with? All we will need is 3-4 senators to avoid a filibuster, and there are, I bet, that many who would gladly sign onto his proposal as is.

    As for the Clinton scenario, it seems even more silly. Presidents who accomplish nothing in their first two years do badly in the midterms. If your prediction about the first two years is right, then we will see '94 all over again.

    Why does it take four years to enact (none / 0) (#153)
    by Teresa on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:22:25 PM EST
    health care reform? In the speech I watched today he said by the end of his first term. Does it take that long? Will he use any political capital to start on that right away?

    Iraq, Supreme Court. I will repeat that 100 times a day. I just ventured over and read a diary on Frank Rich's column and the Obama supporters defending it as just are really making this hard on me.

    Get's A Little More Difficult Each Day n/t (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by MO Blue on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:48:02 PM EST
    Now thats a Ticket (none / 0) (#171)
    by Salt on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:36:10 PM EST


    no cursing allowed here (none / 0) (#182)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:52:40 PM EST
    please don't do it.

    Obama (none / 0) (#189)
    by mouth of the south on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:07:28 PM EST
    If Hillary wants to win, she needs to improve her numbers among blacks, the better educated, and the middle and upper classes.  Why is Obama the only one who needs to improve his performance in the voting?

    I predict that if Obama wins (none / 0) (#194)
    by athyrio on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:21:32 PM EST
    the election that all his cult members, will be sorely disappointed in his governance to the right and end up hating him...which in my opinion would be sad.....but there is no way in hell this man will stand up for progressive values when he has "courted" the republicans to get elected....the minute he wins he will just start working on his reelection.....he will make the same mistake Bill Clinton did and that is to try to "get along" with the republicans...

    I predict that if Obama wins (none / 0) (#200)
    by Tano on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:33:16 PM EST
    folks like athyrio will become very happy, and a whole lot wiser - as they accept how totally wrong they were about him during the primary season.

    Parent
    well the only way that would (5.00 / 2) (#203)
    by athyrio on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:40:59 PM EST
    happen is if he passes Universal Health Care and leaves Social Security alone...In your dreams kiddo....I truly wish I could believe it but experience tells me that his campaign so far and his way of leaning to the right means you are probably not right.....He is no fighter....IMO

    Parent
    Texas? (none / 0) (#195)
    by sceptical observer on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:23:28 PM EST
    If Texas is so important to Hillary, and I agree that it is, why in the world did she fire/demote her Latina campaign manager now?
    It will get play among Hispanics in Texas and will be seen as an attempt to go after the Black vote, however false that may actually be.
    It just looks like a bone-headed move and campaign shake-ups this late in the game better be the right ones.
    The MALC endorsement of Obama, along with several major newspapers seems to be putting Texas in play.
    I don't think that Ohio is a given either, and the only real slam-dunk will probably be Penn., but the net gain might not be great. It would take a twenty point win for Hillary to really make a difference and I don't see that happening anywhere, to be honest.


    Hi, first-time commenter, and (none / 0) (#215)
    by Cream City on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:18:56 AM EST
    Would you prefer that the Clinton campaign not improve its performance with a different manager?

    Would you?

    Parent

    my preference (none / 0) (#221)
    by sceptical observer on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:27:58 AM EST
    My preference would be that she not make a major mistake. If the Hispanic population of Texas reacts in a negative way to the news, it will be seen as a tactical blunder at the worst possible time.
    The news is that there is a big shake-up due to their losses, and the implication that the campaign manager is responsible might be seen as tossing her out after she has done her part in securing the Hispanic vote in Ca. I've already seen a thread tonight that's implying that her choice of Maggie Lewis is to court the black vote.
    That's not good, if it makes it into the media.

    I'm well aware that they're brilliant and accomplished political in-fighters, but that doesn't mean that they are infallible. Nor does it mean that they have their finger on the pulse of the electorate.
    This may be exactly what the campaign needs. Only time will tell, but they're running out of time.
    If they lose Texas by twenty points it will be seen as a historical blunder.    
    So far they've been getting out-maneuvered at every turn by a charismatic novice.
    I'm waiting to hear Begala's take on this. He's from Texas and an authority on local elections.

    I've been reading this blog since it started, probably because I'm from just outside of Little Rock and I like legal news, esp. where it intersects with politics.

    Sorry if I upset you.

    Parent

    I'm in a state with a primary 9 days away (none / 0) (#230)
    by Cream City on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 08:39:40 AM EST
    -- a primary increasingly being seen as make or break for the campaign.  We can't wait for a better time for a fix -- and we can see the need for a fix fast, not only to pull it together here but also to have matters run more smoothly in time for March primaries.  I understand what you're saying, and it is a serious concern.  But we can't wait until after Texas . . . if we are even to get that far.

    I hope that this will be handled with sensitivity to the Latino/a community.  It isn't about my state, it isn't about your state, it isn't about us, it isn't about them.  It's about the country, because we need to take it back -- with the candidate who can take us to the White House and "be ready on day one."

    Parent

    Cream (none / 0) (#247)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 10:01:11 AM EST
    The  "Latino"  on Clinton's  staff    isn't  gone from the  campaign---she  stays  with  a  different  porfolio.     Just  a shifting  of  chairs  here,  but  media  is  creating  furor,  as  usual.   Not  a  big  deal.

    Parent
    I know, Aunt Mo -- but (none / 0) (#249)
    by Cream City on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 10:59:32 AM EST
    no matter how many times it's said here, that this is not a firing but a shifting of duties, some don't want to hear it here.  So since that failed, I'm trying to tell them how it looks here, in a state with a primary a lot sooner than theirs.  We can't wait; the campaign needs a boost NOW.

    Parent
    Why not? (none / 0) (#207)
    by blogtopus on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:02:52 PM EST
    With Lieberman as a mentor, he must have learned something more than just the 'Unity' lie.

    our fdr (none / 0) (#208)
    by demschmem on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:05:36 PM EST
    i agree that obama will compromise health care to something meaningless cuz he wants to be The Uniter.  but if you set this motivation aside, i still don't see how he's a potential fdr.  legislative skills matter and there's nothing to show he has them.  

    the hillary clintons, on the other hand, know how to grind things through.  our current vp has been extremely effective at pushing his agenda despite most of the country hating him, as was bill even in his darkest days.  political magic is overrated.

    my prediction is still (though not previously mentioned here - i'm new) that she'll win the nom.  sure, its scarey now, but they thrive on this stuff and she's demonstrated her bedrock support.  she won't wither where others would.  in the general, mccain will have a few percent sucked by a spoiler (running on immigration, values, 'fair' taxes and distrust of mccain) and hillary will waltz into the white house.  obama would waltz in too.  

    with or without the spoiler the dem will win, it will just be a closer vote.  electorally it won't be so close.  as devisive as hillary is, blah blah blah, the dems are ripe. they'll run a smart campaign, mccain won't excite the repubs, and we're going to take florida and ohio (the vote stealers don't run ohio anymore and that alone gives us the general.)  a combo, as btd has suggested prior, would produce a realignment, but i differ on who's better off in charge.

    regarding the dividing of the party stuff, i'm not buying it all.  that perception comes from spending a lot of time in places like this and/or the obama-loving versions.  most dems don't wallow in this and are still happy to vote for either.  all this 'leaving the party' stuff is silly emotions run amok and there's versions of it every time.

    Our FDR?  hillary will move mountains and one day deserve her face on one.

    Per Matt Stoller at Open Left: (none / 0) (#210)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 11:13:59 PM EST
    The overall state of the race seems to be that Obama has strong momentum and the Doyle firing isn't great for Clinton.  However, I wouldn't read too much into what's going on within camp Clinton.  The Clinton campaign has always been riven with backbiting and nastiness, and decisions have always been made by committee.  This won't change the basic emotional and panicky contours of her inner circle.

    [Emphasis added.]

    So there you have it.  

    "Emotional and panicky," huh? (none / 0) (#214)
    by Cream City on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:16:57 AM EST
    Well, you know, maybe just one week of the month.

    <note to self: scratch Open Left from bookmarks, too, as it will just make me all emotional. . . .>

    Parent

    I thought you'd like that. (none / 0) (#216)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:18:57 AM EST
    Did you see the AP article today, that Obama hopes to be the first black President and Hillary Clinton aims to be the first female commander in chief?  

    Parent
    Yes -- or did I see you comment on that? (none / 0) (#217)
    by Cream City on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:21:31 AM EST
    Somebody's comment here, anyway.  I would remember who it was if I hadn't banged my head into a wall again from sheer frustration.

    My wall will need major repairs before this campaign is over.:-)

    Parent

    I put it in a comment today (none / 0) (#218)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:24:59 AM EST
    in an earlier post.  But, it is still in the latest AP article about the weekend caucuses/delegates, etc.

    A male friend who voted for Obama e mailed me David Brooks op ed from yesterday, in which the title includes the phrase "ice queen."  Guess who is the subject of the piece?

    Parent

    Predictions are uncertain (none / 0) (#226)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 07:30:39 AM EST

    particularly when they deal with the future.  That said, here goes:

    If BHO gets the nomination he wins 40+ states and a pickup in both houses against a somewhat divided Rep party.

    If HRC gets the nomination, she loses against a united and energized Rep party.

    End the occupation of Iraq? (none / 0) (#232)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 08:52:11 AM EST
    That's the worst prediction I've heard all year...I'll bet my right arm were in Iraq in 2012 and beyond....under Hillary, Obama, or Johnny Mac.

    You don't build massive military installations to abandon them.  Besides, their are cronies to take care of with contracts to keep said installations stocked with Coca-Cola and ammunition.

    Predictions (none / 0) (#233)
    by Coral on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 08:56:54 AM EST
    It will greatly surprise me at this point if Obama does not win the nomination. This saddens me, because I believe HRC would be a much more effective (and progressive) president.

    I do not believe that Obama will offer, nor will HRC accept a VP slot on ticket. (If Clinton were to miraculously win nomination, I believe she would offer Obama VP, though I'm not sure he would accept).

    In the General, either will win election, though Obama might have a tougher time. With either, the Republicans (and the MSM) would wage the ugliest campaign in the history of the nation.

    As president, Clinton would pass universal health care, Obama would not but might vastly expand what we have now.

    Clinton would get us out of Iraq in an orderly way and work through diplomacy to get some kind of regional settlement. I think she would make real headway in Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

    Obama would attempt to exit Iraq, but would do so less smoothly with less international and regional support (because of less diplomatic and military expertise).

    Clinton would get a strong economic program through Congress and would have very strong team on economy in Treasury and other cabinet posts.

    Obama's policy on Social Security and taxes is my biggest worry, and I fear he would govern fairly conservatively in this area and cede too much ground to Republicans.

    With an Obama presidency, the nation would begin to have a different image of itself, as a black president would be an enormous sea change.

    However, with Obama we do risk a Jimmy Carter situation (or Deval Patrick, here in MA), where lack of experience leads to serious early missteps, allowing opening for attack, disillusionment, and eventual Republican gains.

    It would be nice... (none / 0) (#238)
    by mike in dc on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:15:49 AM EST
    ...if we could see some actual current polling in Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, and look at it again in a week or two.  I have a feeling there's going to be some movement toward Obama this week and next week.
    I don't think he has to pull even with Clinton among Latinos, white women and working class whites, so much as narrow her margins(getting it under 60-40 would probably be a triumph).

    Dissenter (none / 0) (#243)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:41:31 AM EST
    Well  said,  dissenter.  

    I'm  in  Texas.   Obama's  lack of  experience  in  military  affairs,    thus---no    CIC  image,   will  be  HUGE  for  the  men  down  here.     It  matters   big  time  in the  ge.

    BTD (none / 0) (#252)
    by auntmo on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:23:23 PM EST
    This  was   a  really   fun,  enlightening  thread,  BTD.     Thanks  for putting it out there.    :)

    Upcoming Texas Debacle (none / 0) (#253)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:55:43 PM EST
    The Texas system for allocating delegates appears to be a mess.   This looks like a prime place to have the popular vote and delegate allocation not match up.  Not that that will be anything new at this point.  And leave it to Democrats to permit their delegate allocation to be skewed because of how Bush did in districts.  Nicely done, democrats!

    auntmo (none / 0) (#254)
    by Alien Abductee on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:40:17 PM EST
    About those large crowds in NH not translating into a win for Obama, see Markos's thoughts on that:

    Remember the CW after New Hampshire? It went like this: Obama was poised to win the state big. But thanks to the poll numbers and the post-Iowa premature coronation of Obama, independent voters conflicted between McCain and Obama decided to switch their vote to the Republican contest. If the Democratic nomination was already decided, they apparently reasoned, why not vote for the other guy we liked?

    In upcoming open primaries, with McCain taking the clear lead as GOP nominee, that dynamic won't be operative, favoring Obama in Guam, Hawaii, Indiana, Mississippi, Montana, Ohio, Texas, Vermont, Virginia, Wisconsin, North Carolina...

    And your assertion that "the  young people  he  engages  are  the  up-scale  wealthy young  adults" - got a link for that?