home

The Texas Caucus System Disenfranchises Voters

By Big Tent Democrat

Can anyone deny this obvious fact? Of course there is no legal recourse for this as political parties are not subject to equal protection and voting rights requirements.

Does anyone care? Only as an opportunity to bash Hillary Clinton. I hate it when candidate support trumps support for principles.

< Drudge Report Gets Prince Harry Pulled From Afghanistan Mission | Zogby Emerges From Undisclosed Location >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    same as nevada (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Turkana on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:27:22 AM EST
    a valid point, poorly timed.

    But the validity is overlooked (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:29:56 AM EST
    because of the CANDIDATE, NOT the timing.

    Shoe on the other foot, timing would not matter one whit.

    Parent

    well... (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Turkana on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:33:13 AM EST
    it's good vs. evil.

    Parent
    Indeed (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:34:49 AM EST
    Just my point.

    Parent
    Shoe on the other foot... (none / 0) (#12)
    by A DC Wonk on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:37:37 AM EST
    Shoe on the other foot timing would not matter one whit

    I wish you wouldn't slam Obama supporters like that.

    In fact, timing would matter to many, no matter what the candidate.

    You write:

    I hate it when candidate support trumps support for principles.

    So do I, and so do many of us.  Do you think this is only one-way?  When is was, say, October of 2007 did Clinton have a problem with Iowa caucuses?  When was the first time she brought it up?


    Parent

    I do not believe it (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:00:49 AM EST
    I think the slam of ALL supporters is deserved.

    Candidate over principle is the rule of this season. I HATE it.

    Parent

    I don't agree at all (none / 0) (#13)
    by fladem on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:39:17 AM EST
    raising objections on a known process this close to the primary deserves ridicule.


    Parent
    You I accept (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:00:04 AM EST
    would do so. Most everybody else? No I do not think for a minute they would ridicule Obama. Not for one minute.

    Parent
    Bull (none / 0) (#24)
    by magster on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:01:18 AM EST
    Thoughtful response (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:01:44 AM EST
    We won't know the Texas caucus results (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by ivs814 on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:33:33 AM EST
    for weeks because the precinct delegates have to advance and vote at the county convention on March 29th.  After that they advance to a regional convention where they vote again and then finally the State convention in June.  This is a long convoluted process.  They make the delegates jump so many hoops and for what?  It is definitely undemocratic.

    The same can be said of MANY states (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by RiderOnTheStorm on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:39:50 AM EST
    One could argue (and many have, at great length) that the systems in place in various states effectively disenfranchise segments of the voting population.  Causes are numerous: gerrymandering, timing, caucus vs. vote, delegate allocation vs. vote, polling or caucus locations, etc.  (Let me pause to note that this particular year, due to the vagaries of scheduling, turnout and voting, at least some of those have effectively been smoothed over.  That's no excuse for this, of course, but it at least partially mitigates the impact, which is good for the process as a whole.  Of course, this particular year is anomalous in that regard.)

    But the time to point out such problems for this election cycle has long since passed.  All the candidates in both parties should have been well aware of the systems in advance, and should have advocated remedial steps then -- not a few days before a major primary.  Whichever campaign (or campaigns) is responsible of this saber-rattling deserves to be slapped down -- hard.

    Yes it can (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:59:21 AM EST
    I have said it of those states.

    Parent
    I know, I've been reading (none / 0) (#27)
    by RiderOnTheStorm on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:10:23 AM EST
    And I consider many of your points to be valid, and others at least worth seriously considering.  But...I'm reminded this morning of the words of Robert Heinelin:

    Certainly the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you; if you don't bet, you can't win.

    If either campaign launches litigation now, it will completely undercut the reinvigoration of the Democratic part in Texas -- which is well underway. (I recommend reading: Political Tectonics in Texas should worry GOP for an interesting commentary on this.  I know you're quite skeptical about Democratic chances in TX in the general, but I believe it's a winnable state.)

    Parent
    Did Hillary drop out? (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:17:32 AM EST
    I missed that.

    Parent
    Okay, even after another cup of coffee... (none / 0) (#30)
    by RiderOnTheStorm on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:24:11 AM EST
    ...I really don't have any idea what this statement means or why you've made it.  Maybe I'm just being exceptionally dense this morning.  (My point, in quoting Heinlein, by the way, is that if you agree to play the game, then you're bound by its rules, even if they're illogical/unfair/stupid.)

    Parent
    That is not what Heinlein wrote (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:25:41 AM EST
    You need a new quote.

    My comment was in response to the Heinlein quote.

    Which is pretty funny in and of itself as war has no rules anyway.

    Parent

    Huh? It's a verbatim quote. (none / 0) (#42)
    by RiderOnTheStorm on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:44:22 AM EST
    It's exactly what he wrote, in the persona of his character "Lazarus Long" -- who persists through several of published works.  See for example, the entry for Heinlein at Wikiquote. And I wasn't referencing war, but the electoral process.

    Parent
    You need a new one (none / 0) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:56:21 AM EST
    I did not question the quote, but your USE of it.

    Parent
    Then I suppose we disagree (none / 0) (#51)
    by RiderOnTheStorm on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:12:51 AM EST
    I consider it entirely appropriate.  I believe we both concur the Texas primary system is severely flawed; I suspect that opinion is shared by many people within Senator Clinton's and Senator Obama's campaigns, possibly even by the candidates.

    But the choices are available are (a) compete or (b) go home.  There is no (c) rewrite the rules while th e game is in progress.

    Parent

    The time to raise (none / 0) (#1)
    by fladem on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:13:44 AM EST
    this issue was months ago, not 5 days before voting takes place.

    To threaten a lawsuit at this point strikes me as absurd, and horrible politics.


    That well may be (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:16:09 AM EST
    but you do NOT deny that the system disenfranchises voters. Does it matter to you? I can not tell from your comment.

    Parent
    I think the entire system (none / 0) (#11)
    by fladem on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:37:16 AM EST
    from the exhalted position of Iowa and New Hampshire, to the mix of primaries and caucuses is awful.

    To cherry pick

    However, to threaten a lawsuit against a process that has had its rules defined for YEARS comes close to voter surpression and an attack on the Democratic Process.  

    Parent

    I never cherrypicked (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:01:24 AM EST
    I've slammed it all, including Alabama.

    Parent
    And Obama would have slammed (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:26:33 AM EST
    if it hurt him now too.

    Ands you and many others would see his point.

    The difference between us is I would have seen Obama's point too.

    Parent

    We will never know (none / 0) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:42:29 AM EST
    But, I doubt you. Sorry, but I do.

    Parent
    puhleeze. (none / 0) (#44)
    by myed2x on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:47:42 AM EST
    heh, another classic example of , but but but he would do it too!!

    How do you know he would?  You don't. We're dealing with the reality, not your imaginary suppositions.

    Parent

    "Obama would have" (none / 0) (#66)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 01:47:07 PM EST
    Too bad all your arguments are premised on what Obama would have done (but hasn't done) while Sen Clinton HAS ACTUALLY DONE THEM OR IS DOING THEM.

    How easy life can be when you can take all your own hypotheticals as fact and use them to "counter" opposing realities.

    Parent

    Voting always is a hypothetical exercise (nt) (none / 0) (#68)
    by Cream City on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 03:25:32 PM EST
    Of course it is not (none / 0) (#71)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 04:17:45 PM EST
    I understand perfectly well what BTD is doing in his posts like this, and I don't in principle oppose it:

    • advocate for making the primary system more democratic
    • encourage Obama to be more a partisan Dem
    • use his pulpit now to move people in crucial positions like Rockefeller to do the right thing

    So when he hits Obama on these sorts of things, even when I feel it's done unfairly, I mostly just bite my tongue. This is a Clinton site now, a lonely little outpost where Clintonistas can huddle from the too too awful realities. But sometimes his arguments become just too absurd to pass by without comment.

    Sen Clinton's timing on this is ridiculous - clearly it's not about principle at all for her. If it had been a real concern for her she would have raised it earlier.

    And I do doubt the same would have happened if the shoe had been on the other foot. The Obama team does its homework and prepares for the ground game on the field as it is, the Clinton team did not. The Obama team does not whine about things when they lose, they just correct course. That she's fighting it this way, at this point in the process, for a second time now after Nevada, is really making me lose respect for her as a politician. That had been the main basis for whatever support I could summon for her, that she was a shrewd politician. This is just making her look desperate, foolish, and unscrupulous. Obama has had complaints about some of Sen Clinton's tactics and statements, but none about the realities of the system. To me that just indicates pragmatism and a superior strategic sense on his part and that of his team.

    It's absurd to be defending her on this. And saying with no evidence that "Obama would do it too" just makes that defense even worse.

    Parent

    Of course it is -- it is based (none / 0) (#72)
    by Cream City on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 05:24:45 PM EST
    on past records of accomplishment, from which we attempt to predict the future. And based on past records -- experience -- many of us hypothesize that Clinton would be best in future. That's the voting process -- by voters. You seem to be discussing party structure of the voting process?

    Parent
    Timing matters (none / 0) (#37)
    by fladem on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:39:21 AM EST
    You don't think threatening a lawsuit 5 days before an election is outrageous?

    The rules have been known for years.  If you want to make a principled argument, you make it when you intentions are not open to question.

    The lawsuit is groundless.  Its only point is to sow confusion.

    Really it's a contemptable act.  

    Parent

    Not really (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:41:59 AM EST
    And to be clear, the Clinton campaigned denied it.

    Not that that matters when it is EVIL talking.

    Parent

    rules developed (none / 0) (#63)
    by BlueMainer on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 12:09:48 PM EST
    with the help of Clinton campaign staffers, no less.

    Parent
    Could a threatened lawsuit publicize the caucuses? (none / 0) (#3)
    by katiebird on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:24:15 AM EST
    As someone who's almost always lived in a caucus state, I don't like them much.  And the whole Texas (& Washington) miss-mash is the worst of all possible worlds (although TX & WA are the worst for dramatically different reasons.)

    I'm not a lawyer so I don't have anything credible to say about legal recourse but:

    If the threat of a lawsuit can help make more people in TX aware that they've got to do more than just vote in the primary -- If it HELPS publicize and spread the word that they have to participate twice if they truly feel strongly in support of a candidate then, I think talking about lawsuits is a great idea.

    I think.

    And at this point, anything Hillary can do to stir things up can't hurt.


    It will hurt (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:25:55 AM EST
    I think Hillary just has to suck it up. There are no sympathetic ears for her in the Media.

    Talk about the popular vote and if the Media wants to fixate on the delegate count THEN ask them why the will of the voters does not matter.

    This is predicated on her winning Texas of course.

    Parent

    I guess you're right (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by katiebird on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:28:29 AM EST
    I'm just frustrated with the whole situation. And part of me wants to lash out.

    It's a good thing I'm not the candidate.  She actually seems to stay incredibly cool.

    Parent

    The rules are the rules (none / 0) (#15)
    by Slado on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:40:19 AM EST
    and the political operatives knew them going in.

    If Hillary where running a good campaign none of this would matter.

    The big question is why is this an excuse?  She is behind in popular vote as of today if you count FL and MI.  

    Obama will probably win the popular vote in TX and she will win in OH both probably by a % point or two and the overall vote won't change.

    At the end of the day I think Obama will win the popular vote so all these complaints about process while valid will fall on deaf ears.

    The rules (none / 0) (#64)
    by lobary on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 12:31:32 PM EST
    The issue here isn't whether the individual campaigns knew the rules, the issue is whether individual voters in Texas do. The Texas Democratic Party rules governing the precinct conventions and delegate selection are very confusing.

    I live in Texas. This is my sixth presidential election, and I was basically clueless about the caucus portion until the night of Super Tuesday when we Texans found out to our surprise that suddenly our primary mattered. I consider myself politically active and aware, so I'm absolutely certain that the overwhelming majority of Texas voters have no clue about this. If they do, they just learned about it over the last couple of weeks.

    This isn't about Clinton, nor is it about Obama. It's about the voters of Texas not knowing enough about the process.

    Parent

    I live in Texas (none / 0) (#69)
    by RalphB on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 03:39:10 PM EST
    and virtually no one where I work knew about this hybrid until after Super Tuesday.  You've definitely got a point.

    Parent
    I agree.... (none / 0) (#16)
    by sar75 on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:43:30 AM EST
    ...the system is awful (as are all caucuses) and disenfranchises voters.

    That said, it's the system that everyone has known about for months or years.  It's the system both campaigns either had to challenge and reform months ago OR play by accordingly.  One campaign is playing by the systems (admittedly awful) rules better than the other.  For the Clinton campaign to cry foul five days before the election is another sign of desperation.

    So, I agree with BTD on the foul nature of caucuses in general and this one in particular.  The rules are bad.  But they're the rules both campaigns knew about (or should have - the Clinton campaign has suggested they're just now learning about them) and have to play by.

    Anyway, I expect Obama will the popular vote in Texas handily and this will all be a moot point.  We'll see.

    caucus advantages (none / 0) (#17)
    by armleg on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:49:09 AM EST
    You have the opportunity to try to convince your fellow citizens to vote for the candidate that you support.  
    You are able to suggest resolutions and party platform planks.  At my precinct caucus I suggested several platform planks.  Some were voted up to the next level.  This is the second time I have caucused in MN, the first was in college.  Caucusing feels much more participatory than voting in primaries.  There is a palpable excitement when half of the participants in the caucus are new voters.  The precinct and Senate District are excellent and accessible levels of participation to meet other activists and network.  If your candidate does not succeed this year, at least you know who to work with to try to get a better candidate next time.  You also have the opportunity to have a real effect on what the party states it stands for.  By moving up through the caucus process I have a real, albeit slim, chance to become a national delegate; or at least choose who will be picking these people for me. In a primary system there would be no such opportunity.  
    The major disadvantages are that it takes more of a time commitment than a primary, and that the various levels of delegate selection require even more time.  This also gives the party even more opportunities to shake voters and delegates down for money for party operations.  If, however, you feel strongly enough about a candidate to try to become a delegate, I don't think a few Saturdays spread over 3-4 months is too much to ask.

    Sure, caucuses are participatory... (none / 0) (#21)
    by sar75 on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:59:59 AM EST
    ...but hold the meetings before the primary. Not everyone can spend time at a caucus or even wants to. Some people just want to go vote, and should be allowed to do so.

    I've often heard that caucus-goers are more informed, more active, and a better judge of the candidates.  I'd agree with that, more or less.  But if that's the logic for their superiority, then why not hold caucuses for the general election as well?  I mean, who needs the ignorant and uninvolved masses voting for the president?

    Parent

    And then we will soon (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by kenoshaMarge on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:26:54 AM EST
    have elections that disallow the ignorant and uninvolved masses. And then who gets to decide who is uninvolved and ignorant?

    And yet the system in my state of Wisconsin, which I was once proud of, makes it possible for cross-over, and Democrat-For-A-Day voters to skew our system.

    What is the answer BTD? I ask in all humility because I have seen that you have given this issue a lot of thought. And I got nothin.

    Parent

    2003. Closed primaries with no caucuses and no cheating on the delegate proportionallity.

    One person, one vote.

    Parent

    BTD... (none / 0) (#50)
    by sar75 on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:08:43 AM EST
    ...would you recommend rotating regional primaries, maybe five of them, spaced out over two week intervals?  

    Parent
    Certainly (none / 0) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:37:42 AM EST
    Thank you for your (none / 0) (#60)
    by kenoshaMarge on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 11:34:36 AM EST
    Response. Seems the best solution to me too. I haven't been around this site very long so I didn't know what you had advocated.

    Must say I also like the rotating primaries too.

    Will everyone just sit on their hands now until the next election and then say "oh dear, we didn't do anything about that terribly flawed system we had to deal with last time, did we?"

    Any idea what we, as indidviduals, that agree with your premise can do to help bring it about?
    There must be something even a less than healthy old bat like me can do. I don't like the sound of Republican scammers laughter ringing in my ears. Tends to make me testy.

    Parent

    participation. (none / 0) (#62)
    by armleg on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 12:01:01 PM EST
    ...but hold the meetings before the primary. Not everyone can spend time at a caucus or even wants to. Some people just want to go vote, and should be allowed to do so.

    I think that if someone just wants to go and vote, then they can wait until the general election.  At least in this state (MN) the parties have decided that in the selection of which candidate the general public gets to vote for, they want people to show enough dedication to the process to show up for a bit.  While this caucus was more of a time suck than the one I attended previously, that I think, was because of the nature of the candidates.  Participation was in much greater numbers than expected which lead to delays.  Better planning would have made the process go much faster, since the greatest amount of time was spent waiting for the "ballots" to be delivered.  If the party had been prepared as they were the last time I had caucused, the entire process could have been completed in 15-30 minutes at most.  That is not that much of a time commitment.  
    If you want a voice in the selection of candidates for the general election and you don't want to spend time caucusing, vote with your feet and move to a state where they have a primary system.  
    If you think parties should be able to have a say in who their nominees are, then you have to accept some limitations.  Open primaries allow for maximized participation, but also allow for mischief to be done as voters cross party lines to vote against say Hillary.  Closed primaries disenfranchise independents and undeclared voters.  Shouldn't they have a voice as well?  To say that people who don't want to caucus are being disenfranchised is disingenuous.  No one is taking their ability to participate away.  The method of participation is simply one that they would prefer not to do.  There is not a poll tax, or a literacy test, and party operatives are not turning people away from caucus sites because they are not "worthy" to participate.
    I don't know what a perfect system would look like, but I don't think that the caucus system is so imperfect that it should be discarded.  


    Parent

    Superdelegates also disenfranchise voters (none / 0) (#18)
    by JJE on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:50:08 AM EST
    And yet we don't hear nearly the same level of criticism of that system.

    Excuse me? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:58:34 AM EST
    You have from me.

    Parent
    You did a survey did you? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:40:41 AM EST


    Heh (none / 0) (#48)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:00:20 AM EST
    Meaning you have no idea.

    Parent
    By looking at the system (none / 0) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:37:20 AM EST
    Whether they complain or not is exactly HOW NOT to determine whether they are being disenfranchised.

    Parent
    read the AP and Kansas City Star articles (none / 0) (#43)
    by wasabi on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 09:46:28 AM EST
    The AP article  is written neutrally. The Star article has included these quotes:

    "aides to Hillary Clinton threatened to sue over the party's complicated delegate selection process."

    "But the sources made it clear that the Clinton campaign in particular had warned of an impending lawsuit."

    "Both campaigns have made it clear that they would go there if they had to, but I think the imminent threat is coming from one campaign,'' said one top Democratic official, referring to the Clinton campaign. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity."

    "Another Democratic official who was privvy to the discussions confirmed that Clinton representatives made veiled threats in a telephone call this week."

    "Officials from Sen. Clinton's campaign at several times throughout the call raised the specter of 'challenging the process,' the official said. "The call consisted of representatives from both campaigns and the Democratic Party.''

    The source, who asked not to identified by name because he did not have authorization to speak about the matter, said Clinton 's political director, Guy Cecil, had forcefully raised the possibility of a courtroom battle."

    "Clinton campaign aides have argued that caucuses favor Obama, whose campaign organization has turned out overwhelming numbers at caucuses in other states."

    Interesting contrast in the articles.  The AP article is running in the Dallas paper and the McClatchy article is running in Houston.

    Are we sure (none / 0) (#52)
    by RalphB on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:15:22 AM EST
    since the article said both campaigns might "go there" exactly what's going on?

    I recently read in the Texas Observer where Obama's Texas youth director had an issue with the caucus sign in procedure.  He said that it appeared people might be able to sign in as someone who wasn't there and it might be "rife for abuse".

    That was over a week ago, so maybe both campaigns have "issues" with this?


    My guess is that you're correct (none / 0) (#54)
    by RiderOnTheStorm on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:34:58 AM EST
    And that both campaigns do have issues with this.

    But (as I wrote earlier) if either or both of them are threatening litigation 4 days before the primary, I'm going to be very unhappy with them.  Texas voters are turning out in enormous numbers already (I hope the polls are ready for Tuesday) and that's great news for the Democratic party.  But much of that could be undone if this kind of infighting breaks out.

    Parent

    All I;m saying is there is no (none / 0) (#58)
    by RalphB on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 11:12:43 AM EST
    reason to think only 1 of the campaigns might sue.  Though that seems to be the argument in this post.


    Parent
    Didn't the articles mention (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 11:11:09 AM EST
    there was a conference call including both campaigns and TX Dem. party?  And that all sides were trying to iron out a letter agreement?  I thought that's what I read last night.

    Parent
    yes it did say that (none / 0) (#59)
    by RalphB on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 11:13:15 AM EST
    I think we can find precedent (none / 0) (#53)
    by ChrisO on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:17:16 AM EST
    to indicate how Obama would react. The rules concerning superdelegates have been in place for decades. Did his campaign complain about the system before it looked like they could provide Hillary's winning margin?

    Obama supporters whine about "changing the rules" when the subject of seating Michigan and Florida come up, but apparently feel that the requirement that a set number of delegates are needed for the nomination should now be changed to give the nomination to whomever has the most delegates, whether they meet the threshold or not. Any effort by Clinton to act within the rules and pursue the nomination has now become "destroying the party."

    Everyone knows what the rules are? (none / 0) (#61)
    by kenoshaMarge on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 11:44:09 AM EST
    You have got to be being sarcastic right? Everyone is lucky if they can find their polling place let along know what the rules are. And many do not have the time, or the interest to participate in a caucus. And with open primaries and unethical voters playing "Dem for a day" in order to skew a result it is definitely not a level playing field.

    Advocating for your candidate is perfectly fair. Pretending that Barack Obama has been winning because of a winning strategy alone is nonsense.

     Take away his favored MSM status, the overwhelming favoritism by A List Blogs and perhaps it would have been a level playing field.

    Considering all the perks he's gotten it is nothing less than a miracle that Hillary Clinton is still even close.

    For either candidate to "go there" (none / 0) (#65)
    by halstoon on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 01:30:28 PM EST
    would be just ridiculous. The state parties have the right to choose their system, and all these systems were in place when all the candidates opened their exploratory committees. To begin litigation now, at the end of the race, is blatant sour grapes, and should not be tolerated.

    In TX in particular, voters are not disenfranchised, as they do vote in a primary election in which 2/3 of the delegates are chosen. At least they get to vote, unlike in IA, NV, CO, etc. The system is built in a way such that the candidate with the most ardent support will be rewarded with the most delegates, just as the districts that have the most reliable voters receive more delegates. Being fully engaged in the process in TX has rewards, but everybody still gets to vote.

    The bigger question is will these state parties like IA et. al. scrap the caucus system that has received such scrutiny this election?

    Also, if things had gone as planned and HC had swept to the nomination, would things change? The answer there is probably not. So, while a presumptive nominee is now on the verge of losing the nomination may be lampooned as the product of an egregious system, the good thing is that the system of choosing that nominee will be scrutinized and hopefully corrected as need be.

    A Catch-22 (none / 0) (#67)
    by tree on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 02:07:32 PM EST
    How do we solve this? It seems like the only time that this issue gets any discussion anywhere is during an election year. For the most part, the people who are going to be doing the loudest complaining are the losing candidate's campaign and supporters. The usual comeback is merely, you didn't complain about it before, so you can't complain now (regardless of whether anyone has complained about the system prior).But this solves nothing then, especially since the candidate that profited by the system is the least likely one to instigate a change, but is the most likely one to be in control of the state party apparatus after the election.

    It seems to be a guarantee that the disenfranchisement will continue forever.

    BTD, what do you think can be done to overcome the Catch 22 involved here?

    P.S. In referring to "candidates" I'm applying it to all candidates over all  Presidential elections, not just to this years candidates, for anyone who is just tempted to jump in with talking points about this year. I see this as a longterm  question. The caucuses have been disenfranchising for decades and will continue that way, in my thinking, until we can overcome the Catch 22.  

    Please allow me to opt for a brokered (none / 0) (#70)
    by RalphB on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 03:48:46 PM EST
    convention as the best way to get this mess fixed.  Otherwise, this will just get swept under the rug like it has previously.  After looking at the Democratic primary process, I think it's possible that the Democratic party may have lost some elections because of this process because the candidate chosen was not the strongest for a GE.

    The outsize influence of IA and NH, as well as, the caucuses should be addressed.  You can hold open or closed primaries but no more caucuses.


    Parent