home

Post-Faith Forum Thead: What Did You Think?

By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:41:46 PM EST
Tags: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, 2008 (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

Reactions to the Faith forum?

Here comes the media spin.

Some of my final thoughts. The forum was held at a religious university. That probably affected the audience reaction. He wasn't speaking to the voting public, but to the religious voters.

He did another hyperbole. Now, not only is he the one who has done the most for gays and the most against anti-semitism, he's the one who's done the most to reach out to churches.

He didn't answer several questions directly, such as whether life begins at conception and whether he supports people making end of life decisions. On the latter, he restricted his answer to whether people should be able to use painkillers if that might hasten their demise.

Update: Comments now closed.

< CNN Faith Forum, Live Blog II | Obama Invokes Annie Oakley >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Post-Faith Forum Thead: What Did You Think? | 192 comments (192 topical)
    Jeralyn, I don't know if I can be objective.... (5.00 / 6) (#1)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:43:52 PM EST
    ..anymore. I just have to acknowledge this of myself. I do not get Barack Obama and the favoritism that he is getting in his campaign makes me furious.

    I agree... (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:45:30 PM EST


    Parent
    I agree too (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by stillife on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:46:58 PM EST
    I'm not watching the coverage by the talking heads, but I just read online that the CNN pundits said that Obama was much more "fluent".  Uh...uh...uh...what?!

    Parent
    Well, b***sh** does flow (none / 0) (#158)
    by lambert on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:38:45 PM EST
    That must be what they meant.

    Unless it's impacted in some way, but I would say that more a McCain thing.

    Parent

    it leaves me (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:47:06 PM EST
    scratching my head. I'm too cyncial to be furious, but I don't get it at all.

    Parent
    In the words of Elvis Costello (5.00 / 7) (#15)
    by stillife on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:49:37 PM EST
    I used to be disgusted and now I try to be amused.

    Parent
    Faith In.... (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Athena on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:55:42 PM EST
    I'm finding the use of the word "faith" almost ironic here - it appears that greater faith is invested in Obama than any of the deities supposedly under discussion.


    Parent
    its hard to be amused (5.00 / 5) (#34)
    by TheRefugee on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:55:49 PM EST
    when one person gets asked questions with no correct answers and the other gets asked about aids, poverty and torture.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#48)
    by stillife on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:59:23 PM EST
    I try to be amused, but I have yet to reach that state of detachment.  I aspire to it, but I have a tendency to be "bitter".  

    At least they didn't ask, "Senator Obama, why does God want you to be President?" or "Senator Obama, do you believe that Hillary Clinton is the Antichrist?"

    Parent

    Isn't Elvis a Hillary fan? (5.00 / 3) (#78)
    by Inky on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:08:22 PM EST
    I remember that he sang "Happy Birthday, Mrs. President" to her on her 60th birthday party. At the time I was a huge Edwards supporter and down on Hillary, and the fact that the voice of my generation was singing to her made me feel somehow old. But now that I've rediscovered my own affection for Hillary, I'm proud that Mr. Costello was, as always, so astute.

    Parent
    I think he was there (none / 0) (#112)
    by stillife on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:19:49 PM EST
    I was invited to the party but I didn't have the bucks to cough up at the time.

    Parent
    welcome (none / 0) (#118)
    by 1jpb on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:21:50 PM EST
    You were one of my favorite people, before I was exiled from myDD.

    Parent
    Thanks! (none / 0) (#167)
    by Inky on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:44:03 PM EST
    That means a lot to me that you said that, as I've just decided to leave that forum myself -- I realized that the back and forth between candidate supporters there only leads to increased mutual antagonism. And I have to say that you were also my favorite commenter from "the other side". I can't believe that you were formally exiled from there, but I guess these things happen, and it's probably a badge of honor. Even though you and I have had our disagreements, you have always been remarkably civil and engaging, which is the only way that people can come together in the end. And I truly respect the fact that are commenting on a site where your side is outnumbered.

    Parent
    What? (none / 0) (#170)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:44:49 PM EST
    Is there sarcasm here I'm missing?  Elvis died in 1977...

    Parent
    Elvis Costello (none / 0) (#177)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:51:02 PM EST


    Parent
    Sorry about that ... (none / 0) (#199)
    by Inky on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:07:50 PM EST
    I'm a big fan of Elvis Presley too, but meant I Elvis Costello, who was one of my first musical loves.

    Parent
    It's a corporate decision. The cable (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:59:17 PM EST
    networks did the same for Bush.


    Parent
    and let no one be mistaken (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by diplomatic on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:01:31 PM EST
    McCain is the media darling of choice in the end.  Perhaps they want to serve him up an inexperienced opponent for a reason, right?

    Parent
    Well, Hillary sure sounds like she (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:09:41 PM EST
    is hitting all the right notes these days, and Obama, worse than ever. The voters can't be fooled ALL the time.

    Parent
    I expected more from CNN (5.00 / 4) (#133)
    by williams on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:28:22 PM EST
    Once again, Hillary got the more difficult and probing questions while Obama got questions focusing straight on his policy views. I came away from the forum still not having a clue what makes Obama tick.  There was no revelation of his true beliefs and what is at his moral core.  Then, to add insult to injury, CNN showcases Obama shaking hands and signing autographs while Roland Martin, an Obama supporter, says how much more "fluent" Obama was than Clinton, and how SHE focused on policy.  I just can't believe this.  It was an advertisement for Obama.  I'm very disappointed in the lack of neutrality by CNN.

    Parent
    Tedious (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by oldpro on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:44:50 PM EST
    and somehow...revolting.

    I thought Hillary was quite smooth and (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by athyrio on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:47:06 PM EST
    geniune in her answers even the "gotcha" questions....Obama seems halting and not sure and keeps using the buzz words trying to convince folks he is a Christian so it doesnt ring believeable to me...but then again I don't like the man so my answer is colored by that...

    I thought (5.00 / 8) (#12)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:48:12 PM EST
    Obama seemed slick and Hillary seemed very genuine. CNN has an Obama supporter on, a Bush supporter and a debate moderator. Where's a Hillary supporter?

    CNN is not even trying to hide it anymore (5.00 / 5) (#18)
    by diplomatic on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:49:57 PM EST


    Parent
    I agree (5.00 / 5) (#22)
    by Grey on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:51:52 PM EST
    I'll add that I thought the questions Clinton had to answer seemed to require far more soul-searching, whereas his could do with a watered-down version of his stump speeches.


    Parent
    Agree... (5.00 / 7) (#45)
    by alexei on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:58:50 PM EST
    and you know I am a secular humanist but I thought her answers were quite interesting, sincere and thoughtful.

    I couldn't listen to Obama - that is how it is now; just like with GW, who I also cannot listen to or I will be shouting and throwing stuff at the TV.  From the comments, I know I would have, particularly on the abortion issue, so it is better that I didn't watch.

    Parent

    If Obama is the next President (5.00 / 10) (#60)
    by stillife on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:02:42 PM EST
    I'm pretty sure I'll be cursing at the TV set during  press conferences and SOTU addresses just like I do with Bush.  I've gone from being neutral to having a visceral dislike of the man that has nothing to do with my admiration for Hillary.

    Parent
    I wish I knew how the guest (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:06:35 PM EST
    questions were apportioned. I'll have to go back and look, but your comment reminds me that her questions were more traditionally feminine heart and soul related, and his were to do with doing things out in the world.  Seemed a little like the deck was stacked.

    Parent
    I take it back (5.00 / 5) (#76)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:07:56 PM EST
    No way I am going to go back through that and review.  Life is too short.

    Parent
    Well... (none / 0) (#36)
    by Alec82 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:56:10 PM EST
    ...that could also be perceived as giving her an opportunity to open up to people who view her as too cold and impersonable.  Nothing struck me as biased in the questioning. Talking heads may be another matter.  

    Parent
    Bias (5.00 / 5) (#80)
    by Grey on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:08:55 PM EST
    I didn't think the questions were biased or easier, but simply different in nature.

    The forum was about faith, and the moderators stressed the questions would be personally probing and difficult to answer, which I actually don't think is an opportunity for anyone "to open up."  That is not how soul-searching works, in my opinion, and certainly not when the topic is faith.

    On that specific score, it seemed to me that the questions directed at Sen. Clinton were, in fact, personally probing, while those asked of Sen. Obama seemed to be more policy-oriented.

    So, no, it's not a matter of bias, but it's a matter of different kinds of questions.

    Parent

    "Here comes the media spin" (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by diplomatic on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:48:29 PM EST
    Barack Obama's historic appearance on CNN's Compassion forum drew loud applause as millions of Americans watched from their homes, inspired by his candid words and poignant moments of truth-telling.  The performance renewed calls from some in the Democratic Party for Hillary Clinton to drop out of the race.

    "He put Rev. Wright behind him, he explained to Pennsylvanians why they should vote for him, he confronted Hillary on her lies.  He passed the final test.  I think it's time for the party to come together," said a prominent left wing blogger from the Berkley area, on condition of anonymity.

    Oh, God (!) (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by Molly Pitcher on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:38:57 PM EST
    Are you kidding?  It was obvious that the forum was arranged to be a sort of stump speech, with all the offered cues.  I checked out reactions on the net--found little that made sense and much that reflected already-made choices.  I thought Hillary did better--but the audience was all Obama.  But then, the audience sort of self-chose itself since people like me would not attend such a thing.  I admit--I turned to the forum to watch him make a mess of speaking.  Everyone says what a terrific speaker he is--no way, in my humble opinion, at least not extemporaniously.

    Parent
    yea, that was a parody (none / 0) (#163)
    by diplomatic on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:40:40 PM EST
    The media hasn't written that article, yet.

    Parent
    Heh. (none / 0) (#115)
    by lansing quaker on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:20:51 PM EST
    Blogger from Berkley.

    I'll say it without saying it.

    Parent

    funny (none / 0) (#201)
    by bigbay on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:11:04 PM EST


    Parent
    working with churches (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:49:21 PM EST
    in the shadow of steel plants....but did not pay attention to the affordable housing that fell apart.  Ahhhh!

    No one since Jesus has done more (5.00 / 7) (#31)
    by RalphB on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:55:17 PM EST
    working with churches in the shadow of steel plants :-)

    Parent
    are you discounting his work? (none / 0) (#38)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:56:36 PM EST
    just wondering.

    Parent
    Yes... (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:57:25 PM EST
    I am, I discount his work.  

    Parent
    Since there isn't much (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by rooge04 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:04:22 PM EST
    work to discount it's pretty easy.  But I'm sure he's done the most out of anyone to make it seem like he did. Of that I am sure.

    Parent
    Yes and making fun of his (5.00 / 5) (#52)
    by RalphB on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:00:33 PM EST
    conceit in making statements such as:  No one has done more to combat anti-semitism, for gay rights and on and on ad-nauseum.  Conceited and stupid statements, a two-fer every time.


    Parent
    Analysts say he talked more about issues. (5.00 / 5) (#16)
    by Teresa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:49:46 PM EST
    Global warming, etc. Think it had something to do with the questions?

    Watch out, that's how it starts. (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:49:47 PM EST


    save me from that hell (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by TheRefugee on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:52:57 PM EST
    calling Jack Kevorkian, Kevorkian to room nine please, potential Obama supporter needs to gently into that good night.

    Parent
    I don't like the whole idea (5.00 / 6) (#21)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:51:28 PM EST
    of them having to parade their faith out to be judged.  That is why it was hard for me to take it very seriously.  I just reject the premise of the conversation.  They both did fine under the circumstances.

    Obama did go out of his way to distance himself further from Wright, which was interesting. Wonder why he felt the need to do that.

    you're right (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:58:47 PM EST
    tonight he made a point of saying people have mistakenly called Wright his mentor or spiritual advisor and said he's just his pastor.

    Parent
    Not according to his own book. (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by RalphB on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:02:03 PM EST
    but that may turn out to be an inconvenient truth  :-)

    Parent
    yeah, but the majority of the msm (none / 0) (#184)
    by angie on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:55:00 PM EST
    will NEVER call him on it. So, in the end, it will not matter.

    Parent
    He said that on "The View" (none / 0) (#180)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:52:36 PM EST
    that everybody had made too much of his relationship with Wright, that he was "just the pastor of the church I attended."

    Well, got to give him credit for being able to lie to blatantly with a straight face.

    Parent

    Cause Fox has new video of some recent (none / 0) (#27)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:53:11 PM EST
    ..Wright remarks about racism being in the American DNA.

    Parent
    There we go. (none / 0) (#32)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:55:39 PM EST
    I knew there had to be a reason.

    Parent
    The entire (none / 0) (#116)
    by phillhrrll on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:21:21 PM EST
    premise was absurd, trite and demeaning, how can you quantify compassion.

    Parent
    For Obama, there is no such thing as a (5.00 / 10) (#50)
    by Anne on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:00:06 PM EST
    straight line between the question and the answer; he takes us on a magical mystery tour, pointing out all the landmarks and attractions, and by the time he stops talking, you have no idea what the original question was.

    With Hillary, it's not that she is always completely linear in her responses, but she gets the the heart of it much more quickly.

    I really do think there is going to be pushback on his Reverend Wright responses - there's just too much out there that is different from what he said tonight.  I can't be the only one who wonders how Wright went from being right up there with grandma in his big important speech, but has now been relegated to being "just my pastor."

    His responses on abortion and family planning were offensive to me - as was his answer on religion in the public square.  I'm tired of being talked down to, and having my beliefs condescended to.

    I do not want this man anywhere near 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

    I am waiting for someone (5.00 / 4) (#72)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:06:39 PM EST
    to join me on the outrageous train over the "sanctity of sexuality" remark.  Ties nicely in with Wright blaming Natalie Holloway for her own death.  Guess she didn't have the sanctity of her sexuality so she deserved her fate.

    Parent
    Wish I hadn't been zoning out (5.00 / 0) (#84)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:10:42 PM EST
    when he said that.  He lost me when he talked about 12 and 13 yr olds having sex.

    Parent
    Kathy, I just put my head in my hands (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by Anne on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:16:35 PM EST
    when I heard that - more RW talking points that give me no confidence that he would preserve a woman's right to choose, would fight for access to birth control (when he talked about abstinence education I almost banged my head on the desk), would appoint SC justices who would uphold Roe v. Wade, etc.

    As an aside, when he said "kids are going to screw up," I couldn't help thinking, "Um, no - kids are going to screw - and kids who screw without birth control get pregnant."

    He just doesn't get it.

    Are there sleeping cars on your train?  All of this stuff is wearing me out.

    Parent

    In other words (5.00 / 0) (#141)
    by phillhrrll on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:30:49 PM EST
    he makes Jeese Jackson speechifying, succinct and concise.

    Parent
    abortion and family planning (none / 0) (#174)
    by noholib on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:47:48 PM EST
    I wasn't able to watch.  What did he say about abortion and family planning?

    Parent
    Abstinence (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:57:29 PM EST
    and he hat tipped Bush, and talked about the sanctity of sexuality.

    I kid you not.

    Parent

    That is a bit.. (none / 0) (#195)
    by Alec82 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:04:15 PM EST
    ...unfair.  He did say that should be our focus.  I strongly disagree.  He didn't support the ABC approach, as far as I know.  

    Parent
    I think he supports the kitchen sink approach... (5.00 / 1) (#207)
    by sander60tx on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:19:09 PM EST
    the way I heard it, he would include abstinance education but also information on birth control among other things.  If I understand the meaning of "triangulation" that is what his answer was.  He was trying to satisfy everybody.  Some of you may have just heard abstinance, but he didn't say "abstinance only."

    Parent
    We differ I thought his answers where (none / 0) (#208)
    by voterin2008 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:21:48 PM EST
    refreshing and the only answer that appeared to be diverted was the right to life question which he for no better words skirted.  Other then that he perfectly explained my belief that faith should be involved in the community but not in a conversion role but in like he said "my brother keeper" and "raising up those in need" kind of way.  Faith should not control or be denied a role in our country it should be active member in the process of improving it.

    Parent
    I think the media spin is no longer working (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by rooge04 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:02:25 PM EST
    with actual voters. They're seeing it, too. Like that woman on CSPAN that called in.. I truly think most voters now know about the media bias thanks to Tina Fey and the sheer obviousness of it. It's not quite the same as Bush where you knew they were biased but it was hard to pinpoint to voters on the fence or that didn't despise him. The media bias towards Obama is beyond the pale and voters are noticing IMO. And they're reacting by voting for Hillary.

    I think you're right (none / 0) (#75)
    by stillife on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:07:50 PM EST
    - I hope you're right.  I have noticed that despite the TV news shows being generally in the tank for Obama (except good old, bad old Faux News), not all the news organizations are falling for it.  For instance, I have Google News as my homepage and the news stories there seem to be hanging onto Bittergate.

    Parent
    Well stay away from Yahoo (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by rooge04 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:14:06 PM EST
    since every story on their front page is a variation of "Hillary Attacks Obama" or a promotion for an Obama campaign even. I just think that maybe for the first time those bitter people in the small towns are seeing the bias. It's so loud and clear you need not be a political junkie to see it happening. And right now I think those same bitter people are responding by throwing back the elite candidate that the elites in the media keep trying to shove down their throat.

    Parent
    Ugh (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by stillife on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:17:32 PM EST
    I just posted a link here to a Yahoo story where "Obama turns the tables on Clinton", says "Shame on her!" and calls her Annie Oakley.

    But I'm sure nobody will accuse him of going negative.

    Parent

    since when do you shoot ducks (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:23:15 PM EST
    with a six shooter?

    (And, great, now I got Doris Day singing, "I just got back from the Windy City, the Windy City is mighty pretty, but they ain't got what we got...like bitter ignoramooses who cling to god, guns and guts because they vote democratic, against their interests...")

    Parent

    Ha, ha. Can you make new lyrics for (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:30:24 PM EST
    ...Anything you can do I can do better....

    Oh yes I can. Yes I can...yes I can!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Parent

    Obama both entered and left (5.00 / 4) (#63)
    by oldpro on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:03:49 PM EST
    as if it were a rally for him.

    Came in handshaking and high-fiveing down the aisle...stayed aftwerwards, signed autographs, shook hands, basked in the afterglow of the self-satisfied faithful...all on camera.

    Not a forum.  It was a campaign event. Staged more to showcase him.

    Not sure it was as successful as they hoped.

    I agree. (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by Cheryl on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:55:26 PM EST
    My husband and I looked at each other in surprise when it was announced at the end of Hillary's session that "this is just the first half....now we have your opponent" before Hillary was even out of her chair or got any real applause.  Suddenly Obama is strutting in, barely even acknowledging Clinton, almost brushing past her. She got no real thank you or send off. It was all Obama at that point. Rather rude way of ending her segment. And then the constant applause and cheers after his convoluted answers! Astounding. I truly don't get him or his supporters. He doesn't even begin to equal her depth of knowledge or experience. Her answers were thoughtful; his were rambling and repetitive. And worth a cheer or fluent? I just don't get it.

    Parent
    I dunno... (5.00 / 2) (#192)
    by Alec82 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:01:01 PM EST
    ...I thought they both had a tendency to ramble.  I don't like these "forums," be it for Spanish speaking voters, LGBT voters or the religious bloc.  They're extremely awkward.  I feel like our culture has had too much influence from the likes of Oprah and the View.  I don't remember these nonsense forums in 2004.  

    Parent
    I don't think it will change anyone's mind (none / 0) (#83)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:09:57 PM EST
    And I hate to agree with BTD because his head is big enough already, but from what I saw, Clinton definitely seemed uneasy in the beginning.  She got into her rhythm in the middle of it, but I think she came across as uncomfortable in the beginning--which is strange, because it's usually her forte to stand up to hard crowds.

    Maybe they were both just tired.  I thought she looked beautiful in that yellow, though... hahaha!

    Parent

    high-fiving?? are you kidding me??? (none / 0) (#85)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:11:00 PM EST
    That sounds so tacky.

    Parent
    hahaha (none / 0) (#152)
    by Cal on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:35:22 PM EST
    "basked in the afterglow"   So much so that we thought he was going to start smoking again right in front of the students.

    Parent
    CNN played his Annie Oakley comments (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:12:25 PM EST
    about Hillary. That was something, did anyone see it? Was that today?

    Is there an Obama supporter (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by badger on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:07:37 PM EST
    old enough to know who Annie Oakley was? (I remember the TV show)

    They're gonna think he's talking about sunglasses.

    Parent

    Seems to me (4.20 / 5) (#114)
    by nell on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:19:51 PM EST
    he totally lost it in that very, very bitter performance. What happened to hope?

    Just not good to mock her like that. He looks so condescending doing it. Especially since HE is the one who messed up. How dare she call him out on it!

    Parent

    we are approaching meltdown territory (4.00 / 4) (#145)
    by diplomatic on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:32:42 PM EST
    He better watch his composure at Wednesday's debate...

    Sure seems anxious and overly upset for someone who is the inevitable nominee.

    Parent

    Yeah it was today, And about time he stepped (1.00 / 2) (#204)
    by voterin2008 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:14:29 PM EST
    up and starting fighting fire with fire.  The pandering Clinton has done that past few days is pitiful.  All on the backs of middle and lower class voters who are bitter and frustrated at our political system.  Hope and leadership is being honest with people so that we can identify the real problems of this country and move forward.

    Parent
    See my comment below (none / 0) (#97)
    by stillife on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:14:22 PM EST
    It's the same speech where he said "Shame on her!"

    Obama Turns Table on Clinton

    Parent

    What a silly, silly man.. and talk (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:18:37 PM EST
    about right wing talking points!!!
    Hillary is perfectly within her rights to take him to task for insulting small town people, but making fun of Hillary because she said she learned to shoot as a child is a classic Republican joke.


    Parent
    Actually said Obama was (none / 0) (#126)
    by waldenpond on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:24:21 PM EST
    CNN's John said Obama was sarcastic and angry. Ouch.

    Parent
    John King? (none / 0) (#142)
    by diplomatic on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:31:38 PM EST


    Parent
    Here's something for Obama supporters to chew on: (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:12:33 PM EST
    His bitter remark is pure reflection of his "religious experience".  He IS a bitter man working under the guise of "hope". Very 1984: black is white, war is peace...

    The crap spewn from his church is the very definition of bitter.  The congregants are all victims.  Every. single. one. of. them.  Couple all this with Michelle Obama's statements and all this makes sense now.  The bitterness he and his ilk have, well, he's just trying to spread the victimhood to account for his losses to blue-collar/rural white voters.  

    I am an atheist/secular humanist.  If Barack's campaign would have answered CNN's request for this forum the way he countered Alan Keyes during his Senate run ("I am running to be a senator for Illinois, not its minister") I would have considered supporting him.   I am tired of Obama having it both ways.  Definitely count me as one of the many who will write in HRC's name in November if he's the nom.

    CNN (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by kayla on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:13:37 PM EST
    won't play some of Hillary's applause lines.  I thought she was brilliant in answer some of those impossible questions like "Do you think God wants you to president?"  Show a clip of her response, CNN!

    Why haven't I given up yet?

    because you failed Math? (3.00 / 1) (#140)
    by diplomatic on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:30:48 PM EST
    --says the random Obama supporter.

    Parent
    Nah (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by kayla on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:49:18 PM EST
    I'm just bitter (and mathematical enough to know) that the economy is in a shambles and I've begun to cling onto the idea that fair media coverage of the candidate that I feel could best fix it actually exists.

    I'm hopeless...

    Parent

    Hang in there (none / 0) (#183)
    by diplomatic on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:53:55 PM EST
    I think Hillary is going to pull this one out.  I still have faith that fairness will prevail.

    Democrats need to win in Novemeber and only Hillary at the top of the ticket can achieve that goal, in my opinion.  She is in a pretty good position right now, all things considered.


    Parent

    Obama really panders (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by lilburro on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:18:58 PM EST
    on faith.  The questions brought to him tonight and the way he handled them demonstrated that.  From "punished with a baby" to his support for faith-based initiatives to his criticisms of Democrats who support separation church and state as EXTREMISTS.  And his explanation of his comments in SF was very subpar.  If progressives were progressive the sucking up to the religious right that is going on would be widely frowned upon.  I thought this forum revealed Obama's willingness to sell out the liberalism of many fine folks in order to seem more friendly to Evangelicals and get votes.

    sep of church and state (none / 0) (#179)
    by noholib on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:52:15 PM EST
    I am sorry I couldn't watch this.
    Did he really say that Democrats who support the separation of church and state are extremists?
    How exactly did he put this?!!!

    Parent
    media golden boy (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by DianneCharlotteNC on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:22:52 PM EST
    How many questions asked? About 25 or so? But seems all they're prepared to talk about are the first 2 questions to each candidate...Obama's latest misstatement about rural Americans being bitter. Worded so Hillary couldn't win (What was wrong with what he said? Why have you attacked him so aggressively?) & the golden boy of the media couldn't lose(Why did you say...? Hillary said you were elitest)Campbell hid her dislike for Sen Clinton very well during the questioning but sure let her claws out at the wrap up!!!!But the media will keep pounding on any misstatement by former President Clinton and twisting any misstep of Sen. Clinton no matter how without merit or how old that "news" is until they get Sen. Obama the nomination. The gloves will come off in the national election and all of this will come back to bite the liberal media when McCain is elected President.

    The follow up question was not pre-planned (none / 0) (#135)
    by voterin2008 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:29:34 PM EST
    it came because her first response completely contradicted her attacks on the campaign.  If you are going to testify to the elitest, out of touch, unelectable arguement on the campaign trail and then say Obama needs to answer those question when asked in a forumn, then you should expect that kind of knee jerk follow up question.

    Parent
    Assuming (none / 0) (#166)
    by nell on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:43:39 PM EST
    you are from NC! How are things looking for Hillary down there? Just curious.

    Speaking of reaching out to people, she is running a new ad there, which I think is GREAT. It is of the touching moment from the Texas forum where the 91 year old woman told her she was "polished like gold":

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnaK4a2GU8o&feature=user

    Parent

    Hillary in NC (none / 0) (#187)
    by DianneCharlotteNC on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:57:16 PM EST
    She's still behind but we're working hard to tighten the race. She'll do well in the Charlotte area and I think his "bitter" comment may do him some harm here in the bible belt.

    Parent
    I think they did equally well... (5.00 / 0) (#122)
    by Alec82 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:23:08 PM EST
    ...and many of the questions were simply stupid.  In particular I thought the question posed to Senator Clinton (do you think God wants you to be president) was perhaps one of the most offensive comments posing as a question that I have ever heard in one of these forums.    

    Yeah I thought it was completely awkward but (none / 0) (#131)
    by voterin2008 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:26:29 PM EST
    she answered it well.  

    Parent
    I wanted her to say: (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:32:06 PM EST
    Well if he does, he sure has a funny way of showing it.

    Parent
    the whole premise was a ratings play (none / 0) (#157)
    by TheRefugee on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:37:31 PM EST
    were half those question relevant to an election?  Particularly the question you reference.  But most of the faith questions were loaded...the only answer was to equivocate and say nothing concrete so you don't piss off one voting block more than another.

    But I wish both candidates were asked the same exact questions so the audience would have a true marker as to what each said and how well each did.  To me Obama sounded like a moron, as did Clinton on the faith questions (which she predominantly got), while Obama was allowed to sound better when given no brain questions like "what about torture, what about aids, what about poverty".

    Parent

    I dunno... (5.00 / 0) (#172)
    by Alec82 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:45:19 PM EST
    ...the questioning seemed equally trivial to me.  

     This is just meeting a self-imposed media quota for another religion roundtable.  No questions posed about, say, the DANGER of religious extremism, I noticed.  That seemed like an appropriate topic.

    Parent

    Did they ask Obama why God made (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:01:33 PM EST
    people suffer, or something along those lines? Can't remember, but I know it was one of at least 2 questions they put at her that I thought were BS questions.

    Parent
    They asked... (5.00 / 0) (#196)
    by Alec82 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:05:50 PM EST
    ...whether God intervened in human affairs and whether the world was created in six days.  Yes, you read that correctly.

    Parent
    Well I thought the questions where equal, I did (none / 0) (#165)
    by voterin2008 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:43:21 PM EST
    think that the questions to both candidates regarding Obama's resent statements and about Wright where obviously biased.  I mean what questions where asked directly about what Clinton said or controversial things that have happened in her life.

    Parent
    Could Obama hear the questions asked to Hillary? (none / 0) (#171)
    by williams on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:44:49 PM EST
    I agree with you that each should have been asked the same questions.  I wondered if Obama was in a sound proof room while Hillary was answering the questions posed to her, or was he allowed to watch and listen.

    Parent
    He was probably allowed to listen (5.00 / 0) (#191)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:59:57 PM EST
    There weren't really right or wrong answers - it was supposed to be their personal beliefs.

    Ha - I almost got through that with a straight face.

    Parent

    They both did very well, this is an important (5.00 / 0) (#127)
    by voterin2008 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:24:57 PM EST
    step as I'm sure you heard the pundits mentioning in broadening the architecure of voters for the Democratic party.  I thought Clinton did an excellent job of answering questions and coming across on a more personal level.  Obama was better but you could tell that in the area of Faith he is the one with experience.  Either way this is a win.  It's a shame that everyone here automatically points to bias, or demeans Obama when they could call this a win for all of us!

    Faith experience (5.00 / 3) (#181)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:53:12 PM EST
    Obama was better but you could tell that in the area of Faith he is the one with experience.

    See, this bugs me.  He tells you his employer suggested he should go to church twenty years ago.  She had a lifetime of religion and faith being in her life and you see it as him having more experience.  Are you people DAFT?  

    Parent

    I'm waiting for (5.00 / 4) (#203)
    by badger on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:12:33 PM EST
    "Obama has more experience with women's issues because he has a wife and three daughters and Hillary only has the one daughter".

    Assuming I haven't missed it already.

    Parent

    LOL, what a hoot.. (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:25:29 PM EST
    If he was running against anyone but a Clinton, that would be his Dean Scream. He sure was testy.

    Not likeable enough in that video clip (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by diplomatic on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:33:29 PM EST


    Parent
    Ick. (5.00 / 4) (#138)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:30:19 PM EST
    Did you see how he changed a bit when he started smearing her?

    Ick.

    I will say she does "Shame on you" better than he does. She's making a point, he's patting himself on the back. A follower yet again. Hers was about his false advertising, his about her pointing out the truth.

    I'm so over him.

    Yawn. (none / 0) (#2)
    by gmo on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:44:11 PM EST
    Nothing new, really.  Nothing earth shattering or game changing.

    I agree! (none / 0) (#209)
    by felizarte on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:30:42 PM EST
    Nothing said here by Hillary or Obama takes away from the "bitterGate"  I doubt that many of those who have heard about Obama's "bitter" comment tuned in to this forum.  Nothing the pro-Obama pundits can really change the topic.  Then there is that debate on Wednesday where people get to see them again on the same stage answering the same questions.  

    Parent
    CNN (none / 0) (#3)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:44:30 PM EST
    Ok, Methodist which Hillary is for all her life, are very private.  Obama joined a church as he said, for political and work purposes.  He uses faith in his politics.  She had the faith for years.  

    I'll be honest.... (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:47:32 PM EST
    ...sometimes when I am around really devout Christians I go along to get along and the kinds of things I say are the kinds of things Obama says tonight. And for the record, I am an agnostic Episcopalian, if there is such a thing.

    Parent
    ha! (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by TheRefugee on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:50:26 PM EST
    agnostic Episcopalian!  Me too then...atheistic Catholic--no wait, yours might work mine I think might stretch a boundary.

    Parent
    Atheistic recovering Catholic (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by oldpro on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:53:24 PM EST
    here.

    Parent
    it is weird (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by TheRefugee on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:07:01 PM EST
    when I was a kid I was into the whole scene..even into high school I entertained becoming a priest--it was the celibacy thing that got me (well part of it anyway).  But when I started my senior year in high school, and was going through confirmation, something just changed...Then one of my friends died in a car wreck and it was the first funeral I'd been to with a kid my age and the family stood around talking and I offered my condolences (his parents were like my second parents I spent so much time with them) and they said, "he's in a better place" and I LOST it.  At their son's funeral I responded right back, "He'd be in a better place if he was still alive with his friends and his family."  As soon as I said it everyone just stopped and looked at me...I didn't flinch or look down or look away.  Suddenly I was confronted with one question, is he in a better place or is he just dead and I knew in my heart that he was just dead...never been back to church, though I did apologize to the parents a few weeks later.  

    But just a couple brief moments in a lifetime of belief in God shaped every belief I have today concerning my disbelief in God.

    Parent

    Remarkable. (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by oldpro on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:14:46 PM EST
    I can't remember the exact moment i knew it was all crap...I was very, very young and that was 60 or more years ago.

    Age 11, one Sunday I just could not wate another hour of my life pretending to be something I was not, so dropped my younger brothers and sisters off at the church door, threatened their lives if they told the parental units and went, literally, 'over the hill' to my best pal Pat's grandma's house and played pinochle...every Sunday after that.

    Time was much better spent.  Pat's grandma was wise and funny.

    Parent

    Southern Baptist turned Secular Humanist (none / 0) (#54)
    by alexei on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:01:21 PM EST


    Parent
    Ditto (none / 0) (#106)
    by bjorn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:17:17 PM EST


    Parent
    Agnostic Catholic (none / 0) (#67)
    by Nasarius on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:05:00 PM EST
    Is how I've identified for a few years now. Sure, it's a contradiction in terms, but that's fine ;-)

    Parent
    me too (none / 0) (#164)
    by diplomatic on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:43:21 PM EST
    I think it's pretentious for anyone to claim they know whether there is or there isn't a God.

    Oh by the way, I wanted to clarify to you that I am a Hillary Clinton supporter and was snarking earlier.

    Parent

    sorry...I am not Methodist (none / 0) (#79)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:08:26 PM EST
    Hillary is, but I know some Methodists..LOL

    Parent
    the talking heads are a good match (none / 0) (#6)
    by badu on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:46:54 PM EST
    for the very Obama leaning audience.  Sheesh! Makess me wonder if i was watching a different forum.  I thought Hillary was more sincere and that Obama kept trying to use the forum as a chance to push his talking points.  

    the compassion forum (none / 0) (#20)
    by claudia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:50:37 PM EST
    I thought Barak Obama far surpassed Hillary Clinton. He seemed very comfortable with the questions and answered them directly. Senator Clinton, on the other hand, seemed to be a tad uncomfortable with this forum, and wandered a bit with her answers.

    Let's see. He gets poverty and torture and (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by Teresa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:52:45 PM EST
    she gets "why does God let good people suffer".

    Parent
    Am I being paranoid (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:12:43 PM EST
    or did that question selection seem a little sexist?

    Of course, both can be true.

    Parent

    uhhhh.... (none / 0) (#102)
    by Alec82 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:15:09 PM EST
    ...you're being paranoid.  How is that sexist?  It is many things (irrelevant, stupid, etc.) when posed to a presidential candidate, but sexist?

    Parent
    Just in the way (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:28:28 PM EST
    she got the softer kinds of questions about what god thinks, etc. and he got the policy oriented questions.  I could very well be remembering it wrong, but that is what sticks out in my head, and I'm not going to put myself through watching it again.  I will stand corrected!

    Parent
    Hmmm... (none / 0) (#150)
    by Alec82 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:34:40 PM EST
    ...maybe, but I don't think so.  It also doesn't jive with typical complaints of media bias (he gets softball questions, she gets policy questions, she's precise, he's general, etc.).  They both received questions like "Does God intervene in history" and the like.  Hands down most offensive question was about whether God wanted Senator Clinton to be president.  That question made me want to vomit.  But she answered very nicely.  

    Parent
    Not typical media bias (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:44:05 PM EST
    but not letting her show her policy chops is another form of bias. I was using 'soft' to mean feminine rather than easy vs hard.  Anyway I'm not going to belabor the issue.  Just glad it's over.

    I agree about that question - i think we both talked about it further down.  She did handle it just as she should have, short of slapping whoever asked it.

    Parent

    Of course she should be uncomfortable (5.00 / 8) (#30)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:54:48 PM EST
    People of real faith don't yack blithely about it.  People who use faith for politics, are comfortable with it, cause faith is just another commodity.  

    Parent
    real faith vs. faith for politics (none / 0) (#200)
    by noholib on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:09:37 PM EST
    Very well said.
    I am so sick of people parroting/parading their so-called "faith" in public.  If I wanted to vote for pastor-in-chief, I think that would be a different position than President.  

    Parent
    I disagree! (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by felizarte on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:56:03 PM EST
    He was rambling in his answers.  

    Parent
    and didn't answer (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:57:46 PM EST
    several direct questions.

    Parent
    That is where Obama lost me soon (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by TheRefugee on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:13:35 PM EST
    after it was apparent Edwards was doomed.  In the first debate head to head with Clinton he was evasive, rambling, uh-uh'ing and kept coming back at the end of a response to, "that is why we need someone who believes in (hope or change)."

    I made the comparison that Obama seemed like Bush in his debates v Kerry...evasive and ending in a talking pt.  The lovely denizens of DailyKos had several choice adjectives to describe my person that day.

    Parent

    Thank You, Claudia... (5.00 / 6) (#40)
    by michitucky on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:57:09 PM EST
    For your analysis...Here's mine:

    Senator Obama realizes a substanial portion of the Democratic Base vote is lost to him, therefore, he panders to the Pro-Lifers...Dem, Indy, and Rep!!!

    I don't ever want to hear another Obama supporter tell me I need to put my party first because of the implications of the SCOTUS...

    Parent

    Did that CNN just imply that Obamas mother died... (none / 0) (#23)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:52:15 PM EST
    ..when he was a mere babe? Because she was on food stamps and had no health care?

    Sort of (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by kayla on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:01:19 PM EST
    Roland Martin said that his mother died at a very young age.  Not necessarily a lie, but it does put a different image in your head than what actually happened.

    Kind of like the "I was raised by a single teenaged mom" angle.  You imagine a young high schooler who was kicked out of her parent's home and lived out on the streets.  You never imagine that she met his dad in college and married him, then she divorced him and married and Indonesian oil exec.

    Parent

    Oh, I did mishear him though.... (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:03:18 PM EST
    ....because I thought he said that because his mother died at a young age he had to be raised by grandparents, and since his mom died in 1955 I knew that wasn't true.

    Parent
    Oops typo meant 1995. (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:03:56 PM EST


    Parent
    I think you meant 1995 - (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Anne on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:05:02 PM EST
    she was 52.  Which, seeing as I am almost 55, seems fairly young to me.

    Parent
    Yes - she was at a young age (none / 0) (#103)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:15:49 PM EST
    He wasn't that young.  I mean, too young to lose your mother - mine died when I was 29, so i can relate to that - but he was not a child.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#82)
    by kayla on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:09:42 PM EST
    He was just listing off some of the tribulations of his life, saying that Obama wasn't born with a silver spoon in his knife.

    Parent
    Haha... (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by kayla on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:11:47 PM EST
    mouth!

    Parent
    lol (none / 0) (#161)
    by boredmpa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:40:07 PM EST
    There's a restaurant down the street that used to be a KFC but is now a more upscale place (~15 entrees if i recall)...

    It has artful design, but they named the place  Spork.  I keep hoping they'll change it, because even though it IS amusing to have a trendy place in an ex-kfc, the joke get old.

    Personally, I think a Spife beats a Spork any day.

    http://www.yelp.com/biz/spork-san-francisco

    Parent

    not exactly (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by badu on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:15:04 PM EST
    But the pundit said he had to go live with his grandparents because she died.  Thats not true.  

    Parent
    no. (none / 0) (#29)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:54:27 PM EST
    they didn't.

    Parent
    But they lie... (5.00 / 5) (#39)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:56:41 PM EST
    His step dad was wealthy in Indonesia, his grandparents were well off and he went to Prep school.  He went to private expensive university in Southern California.  He went to Harvard.  So stop the lie of the single parent story.  There are enough single mothers struggling that don't need to be patronized.  

    Parent
    If you have enough Zantac handy (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Anne on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:03:51 PM EST
    you could read Time's cover story this week - which is all about the influence of Obama's mother on his life.

    Or, if you have a big glass of wine nearby, and take a swig whenever the phrase, "Are you F'ing kidding me?" comes to mind, you could find yourself just tipsy enough to start giggling at it.

    Bleah.

    Parent

    Every (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by phillhrrll on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:24:59 PM EST
    time he speaks you'd be hammered in minutes.If his BS is that obvious to people proud to be leftists, he's in deeper doo than I cynically thought.

    Parent
    food stamps really play on race/class issues (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by boredmpa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:32:40 PM EST
    food stamps really play on race/class issues, and middle class ignorance of the food stamp program and other safety nets.  Personally, I think a lot of lower middle class people don't understand that there have been times in their lives where they were eligible  (instead you charge and pay late fees, borrow money, and pray you get a job that can pay off your late fees/debts).

    Anyone who is in a situation where their unemployment insurance or their low paying job or hours don't bring in enough money is eligible for food stamps on a monthly basis.  Can't bring in enough money to pay more than rent for a couple months?  You're eligible if your cash on hand and income over those months isn't significantly high -- i.e. you got 700 rent, 100 util, an older car, and not enough hours at work.  I think it even counts if your UI benefits aren't high enough and you're looking for work.

    So, even if she was on food stamps for a month, it means nothing.  However, it's the stereotype that it's only for permanently poor people that is played on with food stamps.  It's also a racial stereotype, and is frequently perpetuated as a racial stereotype (which imho, hurts the overall safety net).  I know the racial expectations from firsthand experience because I was on EBT (food stamps are debit cards now, fyi) for a couple months and the cashiers gave me looks at least 50% of the time (and no, i wasnt walkin around in CK or diesel with an EBT card). 1$ beer in cash, rice , bread, meat, juice on EBT.

    Parent

    fyi (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by boredmpa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:33:50 PM EST
    Sorry if the above was horribly off topic, it was just on my mind

    Parent
    True that food stamps (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:55:02 PM EST
    don't always mean abject poverty, for what it's worth.  We got food stamps when I was a kid for a few months - this was in the early 70's, around the same time Obama's mom may have gotten them - if she did.  My mom was working, we lived in our house and had a car, but my dad missed child support payments for a while and we needed extra help.

    Parent
    wasn't his mother (none / 0) (#62)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:03:41 PM EST
    only single for a few years?  I'm not discounting her experience, but he was an infant when they divorced and maybe four or five when she married again?  Yet another Obama exaggeration.

    And someone needs to pin him down (hahaha!) on all his worldly travels.  He's been to Kenya multiple times now.  We heard about Pakistan the other day.  How can we not know how many times this man has been out of the country by now???  Bush was easy--zero (barring Mexico).   I just don't understand why this has not been pinned down.

    Parent

    Yes and I do mind his saying it (5.00 / 5) (#77)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:08:06 PM EST
    As a single mother from the time the TL kid was 2, I do resent him saying he was raised by a single mother when she was single while he was between the ages of 2 and 5. She remarried when he was 5 and lived with her husband in Indonesia. He returned to Hawaii to live with his grandparents who weren't poor at the age of 10. He lived with them till he went to college.

    Parent
    Oh, thank God (5.00 / 0) (#104)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:15:53 PM EST
    J, I knew you were a single mom and I didn't want to tick you off, but since you've said that, I think it's so gratuitous that he throws that out there.  Not that three years as a single mom wouldn't be tough, but he makes it sound like her life was a constant struggle of being alone and raising her child by herself and that she trudged on for years.  It's like his time in Indonesia learning foreign policy...from the ages of six to ten.

    Does anyone know why he was sent to Hawaii, though?  Was that when his mother got sick?  The timeline is fuzzy to me, but maybe because I am not paying close attention.  He's said before that he watched his mother die, so he must have been close with her in the end.

    Parent

    Thanks (5.00 / 3) (#153)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:35:23 PM EST
    and at the risk of getting deleted, wow-- His mother sounds absolutely fascinating, driven, charitable and like the ultimate hippy free spirit.  Reading about her makes me totally understand why Obama can hate a powerful, well-educated woman who dares to challenge him. You see it in the way he looks at her and the unguarded moments when he thinks no cameras are around.

    Parent
    I feel the same way as a single father (5.00 / 0) (#120)
    by RalphB on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:22:50 PM EST
    who raised my two kids from the ages of 4 and 7.  It's at best an exaggeration.

    Parent
    They condensed it in a convenient way. (5.00 / 0) (#98)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:14:37 PM EST
    Sorry, but that's what they did. I can see Fact Check spinning now.


    Parent
    I was in and out... (none / 0) (#25)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:52:50 PM EST
    ... but I thought both candidates tried to give honest answers. I found Hillary's more sincere, but probably because I already prefer her.

    please, folks!! (none / 0) (#49)
    by claudia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:59:56 PM EST
    I do find it interesting in reading some of these posts, that folks are trying real hard to be funny or cynical. I guess I wish I were more "intellectual"...like this group!!

    We're not trying that hard. (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:01:31 PM EST


    Parent
    Right back at ya! ; ) (none / 0) (#69)
    by kayla on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:05:42 PM EST


    Parent
    sorry, claudia... (none / 0) (#74)
    by kredwyn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:07:06 PM EST
    I actually am pretty cynical.

    Parent
    wow are there any other christians here? (none / 0) (#87)
    by TruthMatters on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:11:39 PM EST
    jesus, you guys are all politics oh she got a question about why people suffer thats not fair she should have gotten an easier question

    wow do you think the religious voters watch are asking those kinds of questions?

    how are you guys claiming to know how his words will effect if its all politics to you?

    I am deeply Christian and me and my fiance who got the easier question did not even cross my mind, it was what DID they think about when life begins, what DID they think about the earth being 6 days old.

    if you can't even understand how the religious voters will view this how is anyone going to know how this effects anyone. people and the media just don't get it

    Faith isn't about politics, its a way of life for people, we don't want people using our faith to say hey you know I think he got her, or she it one out of the park.

    So then (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by tree on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:24:13 PM EST
     I take it you disagree with Obama when he says that when people get bitter they cling to religion?

    Parent
    I'm a Christian (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by angie on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:25:15 PM EST
    and that is why I know that the kinds of questions you are asking have nothing to do with politics and, furthermore, should have nothing to do with politics other then to assure separation of church and state. point.blank.period.

    Parent
    and for me, politics isn't about faith... (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by kredwyn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:26:43 PM EST
    In my family, faith is a deeply personal thing. My faith isn't that of my parents...I left my father's a long time ago, and my mother has been an atheist for as long as I've known her.

    But ultimately, the faith/politics thing started coming into the forefront because of folks like POTUS who use faith in a distinctly cynical and machiavellian way. Religion as a way of telling folks of X faith that the "liberals" are out to destroy their way of life.

    Case in point? That RNC ad mailed out during the 2004 election. Another? The clap trap used by Abramoff re: gambling and casinos.

    That wasn't about anything more than scaring the crap out of people.

    Faith isn't about politics, its a way of life for people, we don't want people using our faith to say hey you know I think he got her, or she it one out of the park.

    Politicians and rulers have been using a combination of faith and fear to motivate folks into their "camp" and away from the "camps" of others for centuries.

    The best way to make it stop is to pause, analyze why X politician is saying what he/she is saying, and decide if it's viable...or if it's tripe.

    Parent

    and belief in God (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by TheRefugee on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:29:52 PM EST
    doesn't substitute for intelligence because faith is a leap, science is absolute..life does not begin at conception, a fetus is a parasite in need of a living host, the earth was 6 days old 4-5 billion years ago after a molten mass of gas and dust coalesced due to the gravity exerted on the orbit by the sun and nearby planetary and other cosmic bodies.  It was six days old for exactly one day.  The sun provided the light, not a divine proclamation.  Life showed up about four-five billion years later..single celled organisms/amino acid chains showed up earlier.  How do I know this?  Because people have devoted their lives to finding the evidence that proves it.  

    You keep your faith and keep it well.  I'll keep listening to the advice of the scientific record.

    Besides?  I don't want to know what a politician thinks about faith, faith is personal and should be kept personal.  I don't want a president on his knees before a piece of mythological symbolism asking a mythological figure whether or not he should give the order to kill hundreds, or thousands, or millions of people in the blink of an eye.  I want him/her using personal judgment, listening to advisers, weighing options based on facts not faith.

    Parent

    If Faith isn't about Politics (5.00 / 4) (#175)
    by vicsan on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:48:47 PM EST
    Then why did I have to endure that pathetic "forum"/Obama rally on CNN tonight? I found it offensive that they even had to do this. Why should ANY Presidential Candidate have to be subjected to such questions? Religion is a private issue and not something that should be used to "test" any public figure. What if we had an Atheist or Agnostic running for President? Would it be fair to subject them to this type of scrutiny? I say NO. Separation of Church and State is a GOOD THING and should remain that way--SEPARATE. This type of religious "test" of politicians is very offensive to me.

    Parent
    Yeah, I often wonder... (none / 0) (#178)
    by Alec82 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:51:21 PM EST
    ...if our focus on the religious beliefs of a candidate actively encourages dishonesty in candidates for elected office.  I think a lot of voters would support an agnostic candidate.

    Parent
    No, she should have gotten a harder question (none / 0) (#117)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:21:36 PM EST
    One that she would have actually had to answer.

    I'll freely admit that I just don't get it. I still have the right to bloviate as if I did.

    Parent

    We are who we are..... (none / 0) (#119)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:22:19 PM EST
    ...and we aren't pretending that we know or understand things that we don't know or understand. What's wrong with us talking about something through our own prism. Frankly, I think if we did otherwise we would be blowing smoke.

    Parent
    Sorry if this is OT (none / 0) (#92)
    by stillife on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:12:54 PM EST
    but he did so say Shame on Her!

    Obama Turns Table on Clinton

    To be sure I'm (none / 0) (#100)
    by 1jpb on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:14:49 PM EST
    a BO supporter, but I thought he did better.  She was fine because I think a lot of people would have trouble talking about their faith for 45 minutes without getting to the point that they repeat bromides about how God helps us, God important to us etc.

    Another way to look at this is from the perspective of people of faith: To judge who was best you should ask whose demeanor and style was most like Huckabee.  Obviously BO won, imo.

    I'm speaking as someone who was raised going to religious schools until half way through my HS freshman year.  I remain religious at the same time I have a have a fairly scientific education (BS Chem E, and certified programmer) although I've been in banking and construction.

    You're an Obama supporter? (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:17:59 PM EST
    To judge who was best you should ask whose demeanor and style was most like Huckabee.  Obviously BO won, imo.

    Dude, this is not a compliment.

    Parent

    I was thinking about (none / 0) (#136)
    by 1jpb on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:29:37 PM EST
    bolding "style" and "demeanor" because I do realize the problem with the comparison.  I agree with you.

    I'm really getting at who has the most natural and fluid ability to express their faith, which Huckabee does very well.

    Parent

    Maybe because Huckabee preaches his faith (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:34:51 PM EST
    and to her it's private?

    I'll take private that doesn't interfere with policy, TYVM.

    Parent

    As someone who is nonreligious... (5.00 / 5) (#160)
    by Alec82 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:38:59 PM EST
    ...I don't mind if your faith influences your decision to enter into politics, to engage in community organizing, etc.  I don't care if it influences your general approach to certain issues, unless it leads to bad policy.

     However, when your faith leads you to oppose and hinder, say, disaster relief legislation because you think an "act of god" clause is unfair to the man/woman/incorporeal being that may or may not live upstairs, you have really, really gone off the deep end.  Gov. Huckabee remains nuts.

    Parent

    nonreligious also (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:58:11 PM EST
    I don't mind it as their personal guidance/influence, but I believe most people have their own moral compass. Most of us, regardless of religion or not, 'feel' what's right/moral and are in basic agreement about many issues, although sometimes to different degrees. I think the 'line' comes in when one takes their beliefs that go beyond and try to impose/suppress on other's views and freedoms.

    And yeah, Huckabee is nuts  ;)

    Parent

    or leads to limiting personal freedoms (none / 0) (#169)
    by TheRefugee on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:44:33 PM EST
    the Bible says homosexuality is bad so we need a law saying same.  the bible says all life is precious, life begins the moment you decide to forego the condom, we need a law saying a zygote is life, a stem cell is life.

    The bible also says an eye for an eye but no one is clamoring for death penalty convictions in all murder cases.  Nobody is asking to have a thief's hand lopped off.  We live in an age of pick and choose religiosity.

    Parent

    the only way a fair assessment could be made (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by TheRefugee on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:32:56 PM EST
    is to lock the second candidate in a box and then ask them the same exact questions as were asked to the first without them being able to have heard any of the first's answers.  And that was one convoluted sentence and I'm too lazy to fix it.

    Parent
    How did Clinton do? (none / 0) (#148)
    by dianem on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:33:45 PM EST
    I am reading a lot of digs on Obama, but not much about Clinton. How did she do? Did she nail any questions? Did she mess anything up?

    From my perspective she did very well! (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by voterin2008 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:36:43 PM EST


    Parent
    I only watched her first few (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by TheRefugee on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:40:22 PM EST
    but I think she nailed the abortion question.  She said she was pro-choice but that abortions should be necessary and rare but then tied her answer to speaking out about women's rights, including in China...

    That was a winner for me.  right when I turned back to Cnn her final question was "does god want you to be president?"  How dumb is that?

    Parent

    Yes... (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Alec82 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:46:39 PM EST
    ...as I said, that question was not only stupid, it was extremely offensive.  It wasn't even a question, it was a comment posing as a question.  Horrible.

    Parent
    Under the radar... (none / 0) (#154)
    by diplomatic on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:35:48 PM EST
    that's my take.

    Letting the Obama comments/excuses/denials/meltdowns percolate for a few more days...


    Parent

    Personally... (none / 0) (#188)
    by Alec82 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:57:28 PM EST
    ...I think you are letting your support for Senator Clinton cloud your judgment on his performance here.  He did fine.  Senator Clinton did fine.  Many of the questions were terrible.

    Comments now closed (none / 0) (#205)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:17:43 PM EST
    We're at 200.

    The conspiracy theory is deep in the Clinton (none / 0) (#206)
    by voterin2008 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:17:58 PM EST
    support group.  It's really no very attractive.

    Post-Faith Forum Thead: What Did You Think? | 192 comments (192 topical)