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Largest Indiana Newspaper Calls For Democratic Debate

Indiana's largest newspaper, the Indianapolis Star, has called for a Democratic debate:

[T]he candidates need to engage Indiana voters and one another in a forum that stretches beyond glossy TV commercials, showy campaign stops and rote speeches delivered in city after city. In short, the candidates need to meet for a debate in Indiana in the next few days.

Why another debate toward the end of an exhausting campaign? For starters, the last debate, in Pennsylvania, was heavily criticized for delving into side issues rather than centering on topics such as the economy, health care and foreign policy. Well, then, let's have a debate here that digs into the many serious issues facing the nation and this state. . . .

I, for one, would love to see further discussion of Hillary Clinton's "umbrella of deterrence" proposal.

By Big Tent Democrat

< Electability: Part A Million | Thursday Open Thread >
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    It won't happen. (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by lansing quaker on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:08:35 AM EST
    Obama is going to stall on this.  Carville pretty much slammed Richardson around arguing that we need to get Obama and Clinton together for a debate, rather than send out surrogates to do it.

    And he chimed that the last debate got 10 million viewers, so there is clearly still an interest.

    Richardson was so lost.  "But there have already been 20 debates!  Why debate if we're just going to be attacked?"

    Oy.  It's a weird day when I'm liking James Carville over an elected pol.  C'est la vie.  But I doubt that any debate will occur unless all of the media start to pressure Obama.

    Carville Was On Game (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by flashman on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:12:16 AM EST
    and made Richardson look foolish.  I wish more of Hillary supporters were as good as he.  That said, I don't see much value in yet another debate.  I think Hillary wants it because it's a forum in which she shines, and Obama doesn't for the same reason.  I just don't see anything substative coming out of it, however.

    Parent
    And that's the point (5.00 / 7) (#11)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:19:10 AM EST
    The media trashes her and elevates him.

    However, when they're both sitting in the hot seat at a debate, she shines and he fades.

    Yes, the debates aren't about substance.  However, they are about helping people see who these candidates REALLY are, not the media-geenrated perception, and how strong they are in a bind.

    And you know how both perform under that scenario, but I want more than 5% of the voters to know that too.

    Parent

    IN voters (5.00 / 7) (#20)
    by Davidson on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:25:40 AM EST
    That is reason enough for a debate.  Not everyone is a political junkie and they want to feel informed or reassured on making their decision.

    Besides, Obama could easily use it to address the growing concerns about him; instead, he prefers a controlled environment.  Before this race heated up, I actually considered Clinton to be more of the control freak, but it seems as if it's Obama while Clinton doesn't even seem to mind being at the center of a storm.

    Parent

    Exactly. (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:29:57 AM EST
    Why is he afraid to show voters who he is without a script?

    More disturbing parallels to GWB.

    Parent

    Perhaps (5.00 / 3) (#129)
    by vigkat on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:16:46 AM EST
    Because he has little to say, substantively, without a script.  He falls back on the ubiquitous hope and change meme, which I have never heard him define or even attempt to contextualize.

    Parent
    Without a script, Obama's got nuthin' (5.00 / 1) (#231)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:39:40 AM EST
    ... and he makes really stupid errors, stuff he should know even from local / regional politics.

    Every hear of celebs who are famous for being famous? Of course you have; so have we all! They're celebrities (with precious little in the way of credits)!

    That's Obama! <----- (Post closure plus the potential title of his teevee show after McCain fries him in the GE.)

    Parent

    Like Zsa Zsa Obama or Paris Obama? (none / 0) (#276)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:00:45 PM EST
    She likes it (5.00 / 4) (#211)
    by Emma on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:15:14 AM EST
    while Clinton doesn't even seem to mind being at the center of a storm.

    I think she relishes it.  That's one of her strengths that has been showing up lately, IMO:  that she likes being at the center of things, on the hot seat, taking the tough questions and telling you what her solution is.  She eats it up.

    I think Maggie Williams has been great at getting Clinton out in front of the voters so that she can shine in her element:  taking questions and explaining things that clearly matter to her.  She LIKES this stuff, and it really, really shines through.

    Parent

    For the life of me (none / 0) (#269)
    by joanneleon on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:45:02 PM EST
    I can't understand why anyone would "like it" but it's true that she does seem to thrive when under pressure.  And this '08 presidency will certainly provide lots of pressure and adversity.

    Parent
    Her surrogates (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by AnninCA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:25:47 AM EST
    were on fire this week.  Rendell was fantastic.

    Parent
    Richardson (none / 0) (#268)
    by joanneleon on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41:40 PM EST
    didn't look well.  I was wondering if his health is okay.  I hope he's alright.

    Parent
    That's Funny (none / 0) (#277)
    by flashman on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:04:27 PM EST
    My republican friends have been saying that since his endorsement appearance.  I don't see it.

    Parent
    Indiana Debate (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by Doc Rock on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:11:41 AM EST
    Organized by and with questions from the League of Women Voters or another such trustworthy organization, and not Big Media personalities

    Yes. The newspaper should do it (none / 0) (#197)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:00:27 AM EST
    like in Iowa. All issues-nothing personal.

    Parent
    Obama will not debate again (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:14:38 AM EST
    until it is forced down his reluctant throat.

    Obama defeated Hillary in a debate? (5.00 / 5) (#56)
    by MarkL on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:48:08 AM EST
    That's news to me.
    He certainly hasn't defeated her in the race for the nomination, otherwise he would not be campaigning.

    Parent
    He is NOT (5.00 / 4) (#88)
    by rooge04 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:00:16 AM EST
    running against McCain.  Troll elsewhere.

    Parent
    QUIT lying or GO AWAY. (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by rooge04 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:06:44 AM EST
    And keep saying you supported Edwards. I don't believe you but you think it gives you some sort of credibility shield. I got a website with your name on it: DAILYKOS.

    Parent
    Cool, so can Sen Obama (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by Marvin42 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:11:17 AM EST
    Remove his name from the rest of the states while he is going after McCain? I mean its over, so he can save money, time, etc.

    Really, we don't mind.

    Parent

    Is this (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Serene1 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:25:06 AM EST
    another excuse for the Loss in PA - that Obama didn't realize he had to fight Hillary because he was busy fighting McCain.

    The other excuses offered by Team Obama till now - Race played a v. important role forget the fact that 90+% of AA voted for Obama which he may have not got had he been a white guy.
    - Hillary ran a v. negative campaign forget the fact that Obama beat Hillary in terms of personal attacks.
    -Obama reduced the marhin from 20 to 10 hence the loss is not loss forget the fact that the margin was never 20 even at the best of times.
    - The debate was biased against Obama and was a factor forget the fact that prior to this debates were biased against Hillary, forget the fact that Hillary had the worst media coverage received by any candidate so far where things have come to such an extent that even her cough will be interprested as something sinister by the media.

    Parent

    SERIOUSLY (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by rooge04 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:33:39 AM EST
    GO AWAY

    Parent
    Rooge (none / 0) (#184)
    by cmugirl on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:53:46 AM EST
    Seriously - not worth it.  Click your heels together three times while chanting "There's no room for trolls." You will go to your happy place.  :)

    Parent
    $millions for a 10% loss, WooHoo!!!! (5.00 / 2) (#172)
    by Marvin42 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:45:57 AM EST
    What a clever plan, what a great candidate.

    Parent
    Obama was never (5.00 / 3) (#178)
    by Serene1 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:48:35 AM EST
    down by 20 points. BTD has commented on it, so has leftcoaster.

    the relevant post in Leftcoaster is given below:

    P.S. "I was going to mention this yesterday but never got around to it. The talking point about Sen. Clinton having dropped from a 20-point lead is nonsense - it is based on cherry picking one or two polls to spin the embarrassing loss in favor of Sen. Obama, who blew a huge and unprecedented amount on money on the PA race and had numerous other things going in his favor. In fact, if you look at the list of PA polls at Pollster.com, the average Clinton lead was roughly ~10% in February, ~12% in March and ~7% in April. I just noticed Jerome Armstrong wrote about the same aspect - using a different poll or polls source - yesterday. At least you can be happy that I didn't pick the PPP poll that had Sen. Obama leading by 3% and use that to claim that he should therefore withdraw from the race after yesterday's result."

    Now if only Obama supporters start talking facts you will notice that Obama massively outspent Hillary and still lost by more or less the same points they started the race with.
    If obama can't win with Democrats after record spending, how just how does he expect to win with Both Democrats and anti Democrats (also known as Republicans).

    Parent

    you forgot to mention his waffle moment (none / 0) (#210)
    by thereyougo on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:14:34 AM EST
    so he can't blame anyone but the waffle maybe? (-:  sorry for that snark.

    Parent
    Until he reaches the magic number of delegates (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by jeffhas on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:47:00 AM EST
    he has not won.  Since that decision seems to be left to Superdelegates, the nomination can go either way... what is wrong with each candidate making their case.

    What could you or Obama be afraid of that forces you to ignore he does not have the delegate count yet.

    Parent

    Totally agree with you.. (none / 0) (#201)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:02:50 AM EST
    rooge04! This person needs to TROLL elsewhere. I don't know if it's just me or are any of you seeing this: Obama aggressive surrogates are "visiting" this and other sites to continue to put a wrench in the process, such as has been done with poll sites, and loose interpretations of other people's statements: the last one being from North Carolina where 'they' are implying an Edwards endorsement by playing up the endorsements of some of the people who worked in Edwards' campaign, who by the way, are not delegates or SDs.

    Parent
    Quit lying. (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by MarkL on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:02:04 AM EST
    I would love to see the reaction (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:51:02 AM EST
    if Obama, having refused to debate Hillary, offered to debate McCain.

    Can he lose all fifty states?

    Yes, he can.

    Parent

    More like (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by rooge04 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:13:01 AM EST
    YES. He will!

    Parent
    Obama hasn't defeated diddly. (5.00 / 5) (#71)
    by rooge04 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:52:08 AM EST
    He hasn't defeated Hillary in the primary, never mind debates. He has bombed every single one. But yeah, keep repeating that and see if it'll make itself true.  Hint: It won't.

    Parent
    So you are saying, the heck with Indiana voters? (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:53:04 AM EST
    That is what you are advocating. Indiana asked for it's own debate and you think they don't need 'no stinkin debate' because Obama has already won. Classic.

    Parent
    you sound desperate (5.00 / 3) (#146)
    by ccpup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:25:52 AM EST
    I know it's difficult to realize that Obama literally cannot win this unless Hillary drops out.  

    And the longer she's in, the more she wins, the more money she raises and the more people talk about her GE Electoral strengths against John McCain, it must be painfully obvious that the more Obama's mask slips, the more he loses and the more inexperienced and foolish he looks by comparison to her.

    If I were you, I'd be desperate for Hillary to drop out, too!  

    This campaign would be so much easier if she just left and handed it to Barack without him having to work for it or strongly risk losing it due to his own inexperience and lack of discipline, you know?

    (evident snark, in case you missed it)

    Parent

    probably mischief-making, kool-aid drinking troll (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by ccpup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:45:28 AM EST
    and not interested in actual facts.  Best to just let them be.

    :-)

    Parent

    If you argue with a troll (5.00 / 2) (#177)
    by myiq2xu on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:48:02 AM EST
    the troll wins

    Parent
    exactimundo! n/t (none / 0) (#203)
    by ccpup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:05:45 AM EST
    Or the troll is gone. (none / 0) (#236)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:43:57 AM EST
    That is even better. Although, the comments are out of order now and make it even funnier.

    Parent
    Believe it or not (none / 0) (#186)
    by Serene1 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:55:24 AM EST
    Hillary is actually running on Merits namely her experience, her accomplishments during her senate tenure, her comprehensive and workable healthcare plan and now her comprehensive defence plan.

    Obama is running on some vague promise of Hope and change while accusing Hillary of being the old way of doing things and he the new way of doing things without offering any evidence to substantiate his arguments.

    Parent

    Craig Crawford addressed just this topic (5.00 / 7) (#100)
    by cmugirl on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:31 AM EST
    Notice though, that it may not be a good idea.

    LINK

    Obama's 'Sense of Urgency' Gambit

    By Craig Crawford | April 23, 2008 6:00 PM | Permalink | Comments (169)

    Barack Obama's latest tactical shift seems to be loosely based upon the notion that everyone should assume he is the Democratic nominee and that waiting another six weeks for the end of primary season would boost Republican John McCain's prospects for the general election five months later.

    So now the Obama plan is to ignore party rival Hillary Rodham Clinton and focus on McCain. A planned debate for Sunday in North Carolina was scrapped because Obama won't do it. In remarks on Tuesday night after his crushing defeat in the Pennsylvania primary, Obama only mentioned Clinton by name once, while referring to McCain seven times.

    Obama strategist David Axelrod underscored his candidate's new approach, telling reporters "there is a sense of urgency about the time we're losing and a sense of urgency that we not savage each other to the benefit of Senator McCain."

    Republicans do not require help in savaging Democrats. Another six weeks of competitive campaigning will not give the GOP any ideas they haven't already conjured up -- and then some. Such fear-mongering about Republicans is just what Obama has accused Clinton of doing in arguing that he is un-vetted and implying that he is unelectable.

    There are at least two more reasons to discount the Obama camp's self-serving sense of urgency to end the Democratic race before June 3. First, the voters apparently don't agree or they would not keep reviving Clinton's candidacy as happened yesterday in Pennsylvania.

    Also, what is to be gained by drawing McCain into the spotlight? The presumptive GOP nominee has shown great zeal at counterpunching whenever Obama or Clinton goes after him. And those are about the only times that McCain garners significant news media attention.

    It seems just as valid to conclude that focus on the Democratic rivalry keeps McCain from getting his message out. Obama's "sense of urgency" is more about worrying that Clinton will figure out a way to beat him than about giving McCain some imagined advantage by keeping the attention-starved Republican in the dark.

    Parent

    saw this already this morning (5.00 / 3) (#104)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:07:52 AM EST
    the man is really one of the sane voices left.


    Parent
    Which Explains (none / 0) (#279)
    by flashman on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:06:03 PM EST
    why we don't see much of him anymore.

    Parent
    It's Good If McCain Keeps Knocking Obama Down (none / 0) (#278)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:04:50 PM EST
    It will help show why the SD's shouldn't give their vote to Obama.

    Parent
    14 comments; 21 troll ratings (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by waldenpond on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:28:46 AM EST
    Your first day here and you have made 14 comments and gotten 21 1s.  My question?  Do we have a troll on board.

    she is welcome to run (how gracious of you)
    Hillary going negative after she is mathematically eliminated (it's over, get over it)
    Obama has won the nomination.  Time to move ahead (it's over, get over it)
    negative campaign waged internally against our presumptive nominee.  That is why I am against another Obama/Hillary debate. (it's over, get over it)
    Shame that Hillary is putting herself over the good of our party. (ha! ha!)
    Open your eyes (belittling)

    You sound like, hmmmm, let me see....

    Parent

    The wool is being pulled.... (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:45:25 AM EST
    from everyone's eyes. HE IS TELLING VOTERS THAT HE IS NOT FIT TO BE PRESIDENT, WITH HIS DEEDS AND WORDS.  
    Why is he incapable of winning a debate? Why is he incapable of being ESPECIFICALLY DETAILED ABOUT HIS PROPOSALS FOR SOLUTIONS TO HIS BIRDS' EYES VIEW OF THE PROBLEMS FACING THIS NATION?
    Why hasn't he been able TO CLOSE the nomination if he has "eliminated" Senator Clinton?
    Just like running a race with 48 states when there are 50 the last time I counted, Mr. Obama and his surrogates now want the electorate to vote blindly trusting this man whose baggage is just starting to surface, through no one's fault but his own.
    THIS IS A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AFTER ALL!! I WANT THE PERSON WHO ASPIRES TO THE HIGHEST OFFICE TO BE TOUGH AS NAILS. SO FAR, THE ONE CANDIDATE THAT HAS SHOWN THIS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY QUALITY FOR THE 'JOB' IS SENATOR CLINTON.

    Parent
    Oh - I'm sure all Americans (none / 0) (#207)
    by Josey on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:13:58 AM EST
    will feel better about Rev. Wright and forget all about his hate-speech sermons after his speech to the National Press Club next Monday.
    ;>


    Parent
    Oh - I'm sure all Americans (none / 0) (#208)
    by Josey on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:13:58 AM EST
    will feel better about Rev. Wright and forget all about his hate-speech sermons after his speech to the National Press Club next Monday.
    ;>


    Parent
    When everyone says Obama outspent Clinton, (1.00 / 1) (#153)
    by magster on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:31:08 AM EST
    how much do you suppose Clinton would have had to pay for a prime time network 1 hour negative attack ad against Obama?

    Obama would be an idiot to accept a debate in the current media environment.

    Parent

    Yes, he is. (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by RalphB on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:42:45 AM EST
    and an unelectable one at that.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#169)
    by standingup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:45:11 AM EST
    this current media environment is completely hostile and unfair to Obama. One network has the audacity to ask Obama a couple of unflattering questions and that network finds itself being attacked by the rest of the media. Can I have some of what you are smoking?

    Parent
    (sigh) (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by ccpup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:51:47 AM EST
    everyone knows the Media will be so dazzled by Obama's smile and his obviously superior intellect that they will preface every question in the GE Debates with "It's obvious everyone loves you, Senator Obama, and it's such an honor to be in your company, but I'm curious if maybe you could perhaps answer this ..." and then let him off the hook when he responds about Change and Hope and Yes, We Can while ignoring the question.

    Oh, did I mention he'll have a fluffy pillow and a margarita and the Editorials will have already run in the papers about how brilliantly Obama eviscerated McCain in last night's debate and, really, should we even have the election?  It's so obvious Barack is beloved that we should save the money and put it toward the most fantastic Inaugural Ball in the history of the Country.

    I think, in those circumstances, Obama would do just fine!

    (snark for the snark-challenged)

    Parent

    The irony of it is (none / 0) (#217)
    by felizarte on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:24:59 AM EST
    if he focuses on McCain prematurely, he only proves how out of touch he is, or a fulltime resident of neverland and it leaves Hillary free to discuss policies and solutions.

    Hillary could accept the major Indiana newspapers invitation to debate and she can mention at every opportunity that she has agreed to debate and the newspaper is still waiting for a formal answer from Obama.  And the newspaper can continue to mention the issue.

    I hope a similar invitation comes from a North Carolina paper and Obama also refuses.  

    Parent

    I'm simply amazed (none / 0) (#250)
    by ccpup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:01:17 PM EST
    that you fought with every fiber of your being the temptation to use "bitter irony" in the phrase "The irony of it is ...".

    I don't think I could have done it!  Me, I'd have caved right away.  And with glee!

    I tip my proverbial hat to you.  You're a much better Poster than I.

    :-)

    Parent

    I don't know (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Marvin42 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:46:36 AM EST
    How much does Obama pay for the nightly NBC 1 hour attacks on Hillary?

    Parent
    actually (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by ccpup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:55:55 AM EST
    they pay him for the honor of speaking his name, supporting his brilliance and attempting to clumsily disembowel his opponent (that evil witch!) Hillary on TV.

    Truly an honor, Sir.  Here's your check.

    I mean, it's not like all those millions his campaign has grow on trees, you know!

    Parent

    Since you feel so certain he is the (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by leis on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:55:46 AM EST
    nominee, what do you propose he does when McCain wnats to debate him?  "I can't because the media is not nice to me and it will be an hour long attack ad for McCain." Seriously dude, your argument is weak.

    Parent
    I figured that (none / 0) (#205)
    by magster on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:11:13 AM EST
    argument wouldn't go over well here.

    Seriously though, it's standard for frontrunners to not debate because they have everything to lose and nothing to gain precisely because of how Obama was treated (and I think there's an argument that Hillary might be the nominee now if it hadn't been for the driver's license question from Russert back when she was the frontrunner).  Obama's cash advantage will be much more meaningful when Clinton does not get free air time in a debate.

    Parent

    And I agree it's standard (5.00 / 1) (#219)
    by leis on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:26:54 AM EST
    that frontrunners don't want to debate. But he is not running front enough at this point.  He needs to do it or he looks weak.  And that snark in my last comment was because I thought I was responding to a troll.  I like you. Your arguments are usually pretty fair and you are NOT a troll.  Forgive the harsh.

    Parent
    give him credit for not going there, but (none / 0) (#230)
    by thereyougo on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:38:55 AM EST
    its a 2 edge sword,he risks losing the undecideds, while Hillary on the eve of PA was on Larry King. Pounding away. She may be down, but her worth ethic  is energizing those who aren't sure about Obama.

    And I don't know who it was that said he backed out of debating in NC, but he seems tapped out, tired and ready to throw in the towl.

    I just think Obama's running out of gas. Compared to Hillary, she outshines him and runs circles around policy, working class issue, healthcare, and the list goes on and on. She's a true leader. Damn we are so lucky to have her.

     

    Parent

    The 'new' story coalescing: Obama's outta gas (none / 0) (#246)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:58:19 AM EST
    No, not the windy rhetorical gas which is apparently so abundant it might qualify as a renewable source of only obliquely noxious natural gas.

    But the revelation that the main power source behind O'mentum, having achieved their end game of getting Evil Monster Lady on the ropes, are already looking for the next Big Thing.

    The telltale signs are already in the sighing, Are We There Yet? coverage. Why can't he close?

    It's still expressed -- no surprise, cause she's always faulted for her own perceived failings AND his under Obama Roolz -- in amped up cries for HRC to gggggggohhhhh awwwwwaaaaaayyyyyyy and leavvvve Obammmmmmaaaaa allllonnnnne.

    Then of course, comes the whine for the Dems to come and do it; separate the combatants and give HRC her walking papers. (ahhhhh HAHAHAHA asking the Dems to take action -- GOOD ONE, PUNDITSTAN!!! :: eye wipe :: Ohhhh, Lordy.)

    But more and more frequently, the last question on Punditstan lips* lately is, well, why can't he close this???

    Parent

    That's because (5.00 / 1) (#249)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:01:10 PM EST
    since Obama now looks completely beatable in November, they feel free to jump on the McCain bandwagon more publicly.

    Which is where they have been all along.

    They feel confident that they are close to accomplishing their goal of getting another Republican in the White House.

    I think HRC will prove them wrong once again. :-)

    Parent

    Isn't it interesting? (5.00 / 1) (#266)
    by cmugirl on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:30:04 PM EST
    Don't they see that if the SD's just stepped in now and ended it, as Obama wants, that it would backfire?  If she is forced her out now, I think you'd see a heck of lot more than 43% of her supporters who would not vote for Obama in the fall.  They are so blinded with hate, they can't see the forest for the trees.

    But then again, this goes to show why he shouldn't be in charge - imagine his foreign policy if he can't (to use a chess metaphor) look beyond the next move. He has to be able to look 5 moves down the board and he just can't seem to do that.

    Parent

    If He Doesn't Debate, Shows He Is Weak and Afraid (none / 0) (#280)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:07:31 PM EST
    Which he has every reason to be.  The debate should be on the issues and reasons why they think they should be president.  AND NEITHER CANDIDATE SHOULD BE PRIVVY TO THE QUESTIONS.

    Parent
    if you say this often enough (none / 0) (#66)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:50:31 AM EST
    the supers MAY start buying it.
    but I dont.

    Parent
    Obama will only agree if his internals... (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by ineedalife on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:18:11 AM EST
    show him trailing in IN. He backed out of NC because he is the frontrunner there. His philosophy is that debates are too risky and you should only do them if you have something to gain, not if you have something to lose.

    Yes, (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by pie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:36:08 AM EST
    but that could cost him, too, if the calls for debate get louder and he refuses.

    Parent
    but the perception of not being able to (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by ccpup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:39:04 AM EST
    compete with Hillary in a debate -- and him not only being aware of that, but apparently afraid of failing again -- doesn't exactly inspire thoughts of leadership, strength and the experience one would need to effectively be a CiC.

    If people begin doubting Obama's strength and ability to handle tough questions, they begin doubting his candidacy.  And with the whole thing being built on a bed of "Hope and Change" sand, he may find his political reality shifting quite dramatically ... and not in a good way.

    Sometimes in politics, perception is often stronger than reality.  And people are beginning to perceive Obama as being not quite ready for the Oval Office.  Being obviously unwilling to debate only helps to solidify that perception, turning it into belief.

    Parent

    Yes, agreed. (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by pie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:42:17 AM EST
    And that will be the dominant perception.

    Parent
    Thank you, (5.00 / 6) (#73)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:52:19 AM EST
    Talking point Bot #1234!

    Your check is the mail.

    /Axelrove

    Parent

    He did? (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by rooge04 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:53:12 AM EST
    Can I have some of what you're drinking?  I have a feeling it's red and comes in a big round pitcher with a smiley face.

    Parent
    yes, you're right (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by ccpup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:54:01 AM EST
    and he then went on to crush her in Ohio and Texas when they had their Primaries soon thereafter and we all know he beat her in PA by huge margins ... oh wait.

    I think I'm out of Kool-aid.

    Parent

    Well this will be a good talking point (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:31:08 AM EST
    ON November 3rd. He barely lost those states after trailing with a bigger margin. Yeah, that would work.

    Parent
    Let's change the election date (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by blogtopus on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:35:28 AM EST
    When November comes around, we can say 'surprise! Obama wants us to vote in December!'

    Then he'll for sure be able to beat McCain. [snarkilicious]

    Parent

    He sealed the nomination? (none / 0) (#103)
    by Marvin42 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:07:30 AM EST
    Did he use real seals? What do you sea mammals have to do with the nomination.

    So confused...So confused...

    Parent

    That is one reason (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by angie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:40:02 AM EST
    the other reason is he doesn't perform well when he doesn't have a script because he honestly does not have the depth of knowledge on the issues that Hillary does, and it shows -- I know his supporters (including the msm) claim he "won" the debates, but that is the same as when W & the msm claimed W had "won" the debates.

    Parent
    True, but then again... (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:09:44 AM EST
    his last experience was to say the least, very unpleasant for him. Where he stands on the issues we know....maybe somewhere in between... well, "I can't really put my finger on it" like the Governor of New Mexico said when asked why he was endorsing Obama instead of Clinton.
    He would have to dissipate his nebulous position on the issues, which time and again he has shown to be incapable of doing.
    His speeches have become broken record, replica of what once, very early in the race, was thought to be inspiring.
    Clinton on the other hand, has continued to grow in presence and ESSENCE, is continuosly fine-tuning, really working out her proposals for solutions to the issues that riddle the American voters and the nation in general.
    So... having said this, yes, he would not want to debate ANY MORE against such a formidable debater.

    Parent
    His 21 (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by AnninCA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:13:36 AM EST
    debate argument is weakening, since 10 million viewers tuned in.

    Obviously, people are NOT bored with debates.  :)

    Parent

    Anyone have the latest (none / 0) (#17)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:23:00 AM EST
    polls from Indiana?

    Parent
    SUSA - April 14 - Hillary 55-39 (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by Josey on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:09:03 AM EST
    Indiana Men, Democrats, & Young Voters Move Away From Obama -

    http://tinyurl.com/4ltb9m


    Parent

    Hmmmm.... (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:12:38 AM EST
    and that was before the PA debate and her victory.

    Come on, SUSA, do another one!

    Parent

    Well, I think that ducking the debates (none / 0) (#227)
    by FlaDemFem on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:33:06 AM EST
    just says he can't talk the talk, and won't be able to walk the walk. So how is he in any way qualified for the office of President? Because he says so?? Not good enough..sorry.

    Parent
    I would love to hear (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:21:07 AM EST
    Obama's thoughts on that umbrella of deterrence proposal too.

    Especially since many seem to think that Obama would support this proposal. I'd like to hear it from his own lips.

    I guess I'm getting totally punchy on this (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:08:42 AM EST
    stuff, but I just imagined Obama responding to the question of, "what is your position on Senator Clinton's umbrella of deterrence," to be:

    "Well, first of all, I want to go on the record with something I find very disturbing: Senator Clinton has asserted that only she is qualified to restore America's reputation in the world, and yet, she apparently could not be bothered to learn that, in the French language, "of" and "de" is redundant, and, maybe worse, her pronunciation is so bad she may have done irreparable harm to our relationship with France.  I have, therefore, contacted the appropriate diplomatic officials to see if we can set thigns right.  Now, that being said, I want to assure the American people that if there are to be more umbrellas made, they should be made in this country, and if I am president, I will spare no effort to ensure that Terrence brings his umbrella factory to the US."

    Sorry - I could not help myself...

    Parent

    perfect -- but you left one thing out (5.00 / 1) (#258)
    by angie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:17:32 PM EST
    "No one has done more for umbrellas then Barack Obama."

    Parent
    HAHAHAHAHA (none / 0) (#115)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:10:25 AM EST
    They would have to be called "freedom umbrellas"!

    Parent
    Brilliant! Gave me my first laugh of the day! (none / 0) (#226)
    by felizarte on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:32:39 AM EST
    Definitely worthy of an SNL skit.

    Parent
    If people are tired of debates (5.00 / 8) (#15)
    by myiq2xu on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:22:29 AM EST
    why was the last one the highest rated one?

    Oh!bama is just tired of losing debates.

    Bingo (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:26:40 AM EST
    Because it was on network TV (none / 0) (#166)
    by magster on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:42:40 AM EST
    Begged ??: got viewed even w/ network competition (none / 0) (#252)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:05:41 PM EST
    People watched even though there were new episodes and installments of network shows available.

    Thank you for playing.

    Parent

    If they do debate (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:22:42 AM EST
    And he's not ready -- this time -- to smoothly answer about his own "issues," whether fairly asked about or not, then that says a whole lot about how much he's interested in doing the WORK it takes to be president.

    He knows now that the media won't always hand him a pillow.  He needs to figure out how to make himself look good anyway.

    Of course my biggest concern about him is what he'll do to the Democratic brand if elected, and his performance at a post-Penn-debate Indianna debate will be a decent indicator of that.  Does he learn from his own mistakes?

    Then she should (5.00 / 6) (#19)
    by abfabdem on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:24:41 AM EST
    offer to do a solo Q&A on prime time for an hour.  She wants voters to know her stand on issues and her solutions.  Why should Indiana be denied this opportunity just because Obama is afraid?

    that a pretty good idea (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:25:44 AM EST
    actually.

    Parent
    That's an excellent idea! (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by pie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:37:27 AM EST
    She'd do it, too.

    Parent
    Kinda like Larry King Live (none / 0) (#93)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:02:27 AM EST
    I thought she was great for 30 mins debating LKL and her appearance against Keith was smart too. She was not afraid of being in enemy territory. Why is he so afraid of debating in Indiana? And that already won thing will go big in that state. He has NC because one of the things is that they can be Dem for a day. But Indiana is a state of working class people aka Ohio and Penna.

    Parent
    Fantastic Idea (none / 0) (#200)
    by STLDeb on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:02:38 AM EST
    I like that ... would, maybe, show Obama up.  Who would be the best moderator/interviewer?  

    Actually since Katie Couric never got her shot at the debate, how about her?  Woman to woman kind of thing.

    Parent

    Katie Couric is a lightweight twit.. (none / 0) (#229)
    by FlaDemFem on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:38:40 AM EST
    if you are going to have someone interview Hillary, at least find someone who can match her intelligence, or ask questions that are relevant. Couric is all fluff. She would do better interviewing Obama, they are on the same level when it comes to substance.

    Parent
    EXCELLENT IDEA....HILLARY IS NOT AFRAID (none / 0) (#281)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:14:53 PM EST
    And anyone who is, should not even be considered to be presidential material.  If they are asked questions and have not been given any clues as to what they will be, Hillary will wipe up the floor with Obammie.  He is NOT good answering questions off the cuff.  He is a script/teleprompter guy.

    Parent
    Senator Obama needs to win one. (5.00 / 6) (#23)
    by eleanora on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:29:15 AM EST
    Having his crowds chant, "No more debates!" over and over isn't going to make this go away. 10.7 million people watched the ABC debate, and many agree that the questions in the first half sucked. But his poor performance on the substantive second half will get locked in people's minds if that was the last one.

    He's making his case now not just to the superdelegates and voters in upcoming primaries, but also to those who didn't vote for him earlier. Senator Clinton's voters like substance, well-defined positions and policies, and a candidate who can articulate them fluently. Bring your best game and guarantee more votes and active suppport in the fall.

    The crowd (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by cmugirl on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:10:03 AM EST
    Is it just me or if that was actually portrayed in the media - "Crowds chanting 'no more debates'" - doesn't that seem childish and like he has something to hide?  Am I too far into Hillary or would an average voter see that and think something was bizarre?

    Parent
    Weirdest crowd chant ever. (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by eleanora on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:47:08 AM EST
    Most folks probably won't notice it on their own. But if the media picks it up and gives it some play, it'll look like his own supporters don't think he can win debates.

    Parent
    A better chant would be (5.00 / 2) (#220)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:27:02 AM EST
    "Leave Barack Alone!" ;-)

    Parent
    Does someone have a video of this? (none / 0) (#265)
    by cymro on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:29:32 PM EST
    A clip on YouTube and some blog threads would help to get the media interested. They are running out of new stories.

    Parent
    I think Hillary should offer to debate McCain (5.00 / 9) (#26)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:31:22 AM EST
    if obama won't show up.

    even better idea! (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:33:08 AM EST
    I'd laugh so hard (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:36:25 AM EST
    It would be awesome

    Parent
    HAHAHAHAHA (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:41:40 AM EST
    that's great.

    Parent
    You can have a cardboard cutout of Obama (5.00 / 6) (#154)
    by blogtopus on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:32:19 AM EST
    With the word 'Present' written in a bubble above his head.

    Parent
    And a plate of waffles on the podium (none / 0) (#238)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:48:14 AM EST
    Well, (none / 0) (#243)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:53:04 AM EST
    who would YOU rather have a waffle with? Hmmmmmm?

    Parent
    Thats kind of genius (none / 0) (#255)
    by AlSmith on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:08:47 PM EST

    That really is a good idea.

    As long as no one is going to land a knock out blow, it benefits both candidates, so I can see them going for it.

    If this could be dont without Ron Paul it wouldnt be a sideshow so it would be an awesome win for both sides.

    Parent

    If the people of Indiana want a debate (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by ccpup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:31:37 AM EST
    and Obama is obviously the proverbial fly in the ointment, I don't see how this helps his numbers in the State or in the national narrative going into the next Primaries, including NC.  

    He risks looking weak, not versed substantially on the issues enough to compete with her, intimidated by Hillary (a great quality to have in a CiC who may be staring down terrorists and dictators ... not!) and weak.  In fact, there may be some men who lose respect for him for being afraid of debating a girl and throw their support to the one with the cajones ... Hillary!

    I suspect he assumes NC is in the bag for him.  With her only 9 behind (I think) in the latest SUSA Poll, his margin of victory could be much smaller than he anticipates on the heels of the first canceled debate and then the obvious reluctance to do another one.  Add to that the nasty repug ads they're currently running and Obama may find NC not as strong a win for him as he believes.

    Losing Indiana after his drubbing in PA and then not winning decisively in NC could spell trouble with a capital T for Obama.

    That would be great but (none / 0) (#145)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:25:48 AM EST
    No Carolina has about 40% AA vote and per CNN
    Unaffiliated voters can participate in North Carolina's semi-open primary, and although Obama split independent voters with Clinton in Ohio and Texas, political observers say independents in North Carolina appear likely to tilt back toward Obama, as they have done in other southern states.
    Once again, open primary. BTW, open primaries are not conclusinve as to the real winner. Too much manipulation from the other side.

    Parent
    you're probably right (none / 0) (#151)
    by ccpup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:30:25 AM EST
    but if he doesn't blow her out of the water by 15 or at least 10 points in a State that seems tailor-made for him (especially on the heels of his inability to make in-roads into her core voting blocs), people eg. SDs may begin to question his ability to win in a State that ISN'T tailor-made for him.

    And we've already seen -- with CA, NJ, NY, AR, OH, PA and elsewhere -- that that appears to be the case.  Even after 7 weeks and millions of dollars, he still couldn't win PA.  

    I suspect we have a lot of worried SDs right now.

    Parent

    Among other things (none / 0) (#223)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:29:41 AM EST
    I suspect we have a lot of worried SDs right now.
    I suspect we have a lot of pressured SDs right now.

    Parent
    if the GOP linking downticket Dems to Barack (none / 0) (#253)
    by ccpup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:07:15 PM EST
    in a not-so-favorable way continues to be a trend, you may see SDs taking a message when Obama calls and instead picking up the phone when it's Hillary.

    At the end of the day, some of the decision-making is going to be about he best helps the other Dems on the ticket State-by-State and they're already seeing Barack may be more of a liability than an asset.

    Parent

    Fly In The Ointment = Obama = No Debates, MI or FL (none / 0) (#283)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:19:14 PM EST
    How about a town hall style debate (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:35:29 AM EST
    with no media intervention except to hand the people a microphone.

    It is just wrong to say that people have seen enough debates.  Most people just started tuning in to the race a couple of months ago. They did not see the first 15+ debates.

    There are plenty of issues that have not been explored.

    If the people in IN think a debate would help them, then they should have one.

    not to mention that the first 16 or 17 (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:37:25 AM EST
    were mostly pointless because no one got enough time to make a point.
    they only started mattering, and being interesting, when there was three or less on the stage.

    Parent
    That's a good point, actually. (none / 0) (#43)
    by pie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:40:43 AM EST
    How many debates have there been with just the two of them?  Texas, Ohio, PA...?

    Parent
    four (none / 0) (#204)
    by Emma on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:05:52 AM EST
    HRC says four debates between the two of them.

    Parent
    and the Climate Debate was revealing (none / 0) (#240)
    by dotcommodity on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:50:35 AM EST
    because although it was back when the whole gang was in, only Kucinich, Edwards and Clinton showed.

    I also think the Faith debate swung her way: he came across as an atheist, essentially joining the chuch as a social step

    Parent

    Don't Know How Valid, But Is Interesting Info (none / 0) (#284)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:32:12 PM EST
    further research might be required...but I do think Sen. Clinton is more Christian-like than Obama.

    Parent
    Here's the link I forgot in include... (none / 0) (#285)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:33:04 PM EST
    Oh, Come On People! (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by OxyCon on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:42:48 AM EST
    We've already done like twenty something debates!
    Let the man eat his waffle!
    He already answered eight questions!

    LEAVE BARRY ALONE!

    Team Obama complains about the number of debates, but the reality is that most of those debates were held with a full slate of candidates and only a few were between just Hillary and Obama.

    The reason people want more (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by MarkL on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:43:49 AM EST
    debates is that none of them are the real thing.
    Let the candidates ask each other questions, in addition to the moderators.


    Yes... (none / 0) (#61)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:49:48 AM EST
    I'd love to see the candidates being allowed to address each other.

    Parent
    Was it Reagan who changed that (none / 0) (#67)
    by MarkL on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:50:47 AM EST
    practice?

    Parent
    I don't know (none / 0) (#76)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:53:37 AM EST
    but it's stupid.

    I do know that some people thought saying "There you go again!" was an awesome debate tactic, but that's about it. ;-)

    Parent

    I think it was Reagan whose (none / 0) (#80)
    by MarkL on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:57:08 AM EST
    team insisted that the candidates not be allowed to ask each other questions---obviously because he was not mentally sharp enough to do more than recite lines from memory.

    Parent
    Teh Google (none / 0) (#105)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:07:56 AM EST
    found me an interesting article about the history of Preznitial debates.

    Parent
    GE Candidate: who fears debates? (5.00 / 4) (#53)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:45:30 AM EST
    Do we really want a GE candidate who fears debates?   I know for sure Hillary would never be afraid of debating.  She can handle it.  

    You keep saying he has defeated her... (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by jeffhas on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:58:02 AM EST
    but he does not have the required number of delegates to win the nomination...

    Just how has she been defeated?

    Since Superdelegates can vote any way they want (as per the rules) it is quite possible they may see her as the better GE candidate.

    Parent

    Obama is running his own anti Obama campaign (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:48:18 AM EST
    Obama is making his own gaffes.  His own past is coming to light. The story, of the transcended uniter is not holding up.  He looks like a hypocrite and that is what is burning you guys.  The Axelrod narrative is breaking into a million pieces--and you guys think it will hold up in the GE.  

    Here's the thing AGAIN (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:00:14 AM EST
    an INDIANA newspaper is calling for a debate.

    Your comment is simply ridiculous.

    Parent

    Please comment no further (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:21:17 AM EST
    in this thread.

    Parent
    Why do so many Obama fans (5.00 / 5) (#95)
    by rooge04 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:02:48 AM EST
    insist on claiming they were Edwards supporters? It's like they feel like it gives them some sort of credibility. As though they weren't drinking the kool-aid from the get-go.  I find it rather amusing.

    Parent
    McCain was a clear winner (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:04:07 AM EST
    Your assumption is that Obama is the winner.  Neither has the delegates.  So, calm down.  Let the DNC rules play out.  The DNC needs to change the rules.  The primary is not over, she is not following him around that is ridiculous.  The election is not finished  and it's within the rules of the game.  Why do you want to change the rules?

    Parent
    Enough (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:19:21 AM EST
    If you are not able to discern a difference between the McCain/Romney/Huckabee contest and the Clinton/Obama contest, then please post no more.

    Change your subject mater or comment no more. We have no patience for chattering foolish commenters.

    I am glad you are a Democrat, but if you can not improve your commenting, please take it elsewhere.

    Parent

    You somehow know that all the (none / 0) (#123)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:14:11 AM EST
    undeclared SDs will vote for Obama?  Then you are the mind reader.  You are just being a pest and you know it.  Infantile.  

    Parent
    Please comment no further in this thread (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:20:47 AM EST
    You are a fount of misinformation.

    BTW, the SDs in 1984 did not overturn anything. you are truly an ignorant person. Please move on to another thread.

    Parent

    Jerome at mydd (none / 0) (#228)
    by RalphB on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:36:51 AM EST
    has done some delegate math of his own and came up with a number that I like.

    Delegate-wise, its very close (DCW). Obama is ahead 1795-1786, with the  55 uncommitted, 31 for Edwards, 408 remaining delegates, and 340 remaining super delegates. A 9 delegate difference with over 800 to go shows the closeness of this contest.

    Also, it appears that Hillary's superdelegate endorsement dry spell may have come to an end.

    Sorry for the OT, but I thought it interesting since the troll was going on and on about Obama winning already.

    Parent

    Sorry (none / 0) (#194)
    by AnninCA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:59:13 AM EST
    But it's all the way to the convention!  :)

    Parent
    Everybody's been breaking the rules... (none / 0) (#282)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:16:07 PM EST
    beginning with the DNC insiders, with YEAGHHHHH! at the helm began the Coronation process of their poster boy (PLEASE THOSE OF YOU WHO INSIST ON POLITICALLY CORRECT STATEMENTS DO NOT BE OFFENDED BY THE TERM, IT IS JUST A TERM AND NOT A CHARACTERIZATION OF THE MAN.) Phew, one has to be sooooo careful these days!
    Anyway, their argument, to justify their decision and help Obama, is that SDs don't have to endorse a candidate according to how their constituents (pledged delegates) voted. Like the Electoral College (from which model they emulated), the SDs votes should nevertheless "reflect" the will of the people they represent. If this is so, then Kennedy and Kerry should pledge to Hillary since she won Massachusetts and others in equal situations, for example. Now then, can someone tell me how different and "outrageous" can it be that the Clinton campaign is saying vote for our candidate because she is more electable and can overcome McCain in the GE?
    THE REAL RULE BREAKER OF THE DNC THOUGH HAS BEEN THE ABSOLUTE BETRAYAL TO ITS DEMOCRAT CONSTITUENTS BY RENEIGNING IN THEIR OATH TO MAKE EVERY VOTE COUNT, AND LEAVING FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN OUT OT THE TALLY?

    Parent
    "smear campaign"?? (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by MarkL on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:49:21 AM EST
    That's what I see from YOU.
    Where did Hillary say that Obama is not fit to be President? What I heard from her is that she is the better candidate. Is that an unfair attack?!

    Whereas Obama campaign (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:51:17 AM EST
    constantly attacks Hillary's character then Obama hides behind the artificial narrative, just like Bush did.  

    Parent
    Obama needs to redeem himself (5.00 / 5) (#65)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:50:18 AM EST
    He has never had a good debate showing.  Frankly he does not do well in press conferences.  He is appearing to be weaker candidate by the day.  

    When I read your post (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:51:58 AM EST
    I see denial and I see a person who doesn't change opinions based on the facts on the ground.

    Obama is showing his SEVERE weakness.  Do you want a candidate who can actually win in November, or do you simply want someone to beat Hillary.  I think the latter might be the case.

    Hillary is running on (5.00 / 3) (#78)
    by Serene1 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:54:41 AM EST
    I am more experienced so elect me.

    Obama is running on She is untrustworthy so elect me.

    So who is negative


    Quit lying. (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by MarkL on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:02:36 AM EST
    You've earned your check (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:03:34 AM EST
    now please go away.

    Parent
    Hahahaha (none / 0) (#109)
    by Marvin42 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:08:58 AM EST
    That is so funny. Thanks for the laugh.

    Parent
    I would agree with your sentiment... (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by ineedalife on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:57:43 AM EST
    if you also called for Obama to stop it as well. For six months now an integral part of his campaign has been to go negative on Clinton. Even when she was the frontrunner and "presumptive nominee".

    An Indiana newspaper is calling for a debate (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:59:08 AM EST
    I have not seen any calling for a debate between McCain and Huckabee.

    Your comment is a little ridiculous don't you think?

    Why shouldn't there be 51 debates? (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by blogtopus on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:07:04 AM EST
    Including PR, one for each state? Don't they deserve it? Each state could opt-out if a nominee has already won the magic number, but it seems to me that people want more information, and the longer the primary stretches on, the more people need that information to reach a decision.

    OBAMA HAS NOT WON (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:10:55 AM EST
    The DNC rules, which so many are so attached to, say he has not won.  So, please, stop creating a lie.  

    May I respectfully suggest (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Marvin42 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:12:11 AM EST
    That responding to trolls with a "humor contest" is probably a much better expenditure of time and energy, and more fitting with the atmosphere of civil discourse?

    Parent
    Just woke up (none / 0) (#128)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:15:27 AM EST
    and he got on my nerves....Sorry if I offend.  

    Parent
    No not at all (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Marvin42 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:17:13 AM EST
    It was something I was proposing when thinking about the onslaught of trolling that is to be expected after PA. I have the exact same instinct as you. I just think its a waste of time to argue.

    You the know the saying: who is the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool who argues with the fool? I feel that way a lot of the time.

    Parent

    Ignore (none / 0) (#136)
    by cmugirl on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:19:58 AM EST
    The troll needs a bridge to live under (Hey - do we have any billy goats here?)

    Parent
    I'm probably the closest in personality, habits (none / 0) (#259)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:17:33 PM EST
    But, alas, I'm underqalified in the magick department.

    For true mojo in the spirit of animal totems, shake your groove thang / sacred gourd to attract a local Capricorn for the gig. (Capra = goat.) Billy, nanny, we employ based on merit and don't grease and fast-track based on popularity in media.

    Parent

    Barack "No Mas" Obama (5.00 / 3) (#126)
    by BDB on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:14:55 AM EST
    These debate kerfluffles almost never mean anything.   The person who won't debate is almost never punished by voters.

    Having said that, I think Obama made a big mistake following the ABC debate of personally whining about the questions at that NC rally and, even worse, his was crowd chanting "no more debates".   If the "Obama won't debate" meme feeds into the "Obama is running scared" in the media (and it might, they make money on these things), then he could have a problem.  Mostly because it could feed into the larger narrative that the GOP and some in the media (see Newsweek and Dowd) that Obama is weak.

    Attacks like this don't tend to stick unless they tie into a larger narrative about the person.

    This debate (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by AnninCA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:55:46 AM EST
    story has legs, however.  His "flicking off" and very obvious attitude made sure of that.

    :)

    Either way here, he loses.  If he doesn't debate, he's trying to "get out of the kitchen."  It bolsters her message that he's not prepared for the job.  If he debates and doesn't sharpen his rhetoric, then his ability to communicate well is further questioned.

    It's one thing to lead people in chants.  It's another to be able to truly communicate.

    Parent

    And do we really want another president ... (none / 0) (#267)
    by cymro on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41:16 PM EST
    ... who is uncomfortable in a debate?

    Parent
    You know what? (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by Dave B on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:58:30 AM EST
    If I was Clinton, I would run ads in IN and NC with that footage.

    Then follow it up with, what is he trying to hide from?  Is he afraid to have a conversation about the issues?

    Parent

    Yes, Sen. Obama, let's debate issues! (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by goldberry on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:21:06 AM EST
    You said you didn't like gotcha questions.  You said it took too long to get to the meat of the issues.  Let's have a debate all about issues and policy.  Won't that be fun?  

    I'm bored (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by AnninCA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:24:54 AM EST
    with the silliness of how "negative" she's been.  Hardly.

    It just is making Obama look weak to keep putting that forth.  We'll see more and more what real negativity looks like.

    Obama, come out come out where ever you are (5.00 / 2) (#160)
    by DandyTIger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:35:39 AM EST
    Where is he hiding. Is he under a rock. Is he under a bridge. Is he hiding in the cellar. Where is he hiding now. Poor thing, he must be very scared right now. Because Hillary is craaaaazy. She might hurt him. Snark.

    Seriously, I think this is a major political mistake on Obama's part. He even may succeed in slipping through the rest of the nomination with it. But it's a big mistake nonetheless.

    I'm starting to think there are a lot of  people in power in the DNC and SD's throughout the party that know Obama has no chance in the general, and they don't have a problem with that. It's all about party politics and maneuvering and getting the Clinton's out of power. What I don't think they understand is, if they push Obama through the nomination and he looses the general (100% chance of loosing IMHO), I think the party will be in shambles and those people will be seriously damaged.

    Maybe they think they can withstand the (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:41:04 AM EST
    damage by deflecting blame.   Remember it will always be Clinton's fault no matter what happens.

    Or maybe they just think the damage to their own reputations will be an acceptable price to pay for purging Clinton and her supporters.

    We've already seen people like Josh Marshall pay that price.  Why shouldn't Dean and Pelosi?  They don't care what we think of them at all.

    Parent

    In the last few days ... (5.00 / 5) (#163)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:40:40 AM EST
    I've spoken to some of my friends who support Obama.

    The conversations ranged from hysteria to hysterical.

    But one things was clear:  This idea that he can't win the big states has spooked them.  It's all they wanted to talk about.

    It was quite amusing.

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by Steve M on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:54:41 AM EST
    Did you watch the speeches at all on Tuesday night?

    Hillary gave a gracious, positive speech affirming her own qualifications to be President.

    Obama gave a brutally negative speech in which he repeated the themes that if we nominate Hillary, we're choosing more of the same, we're choosing to be the party that says anything and does anything to be elected, we're choosing to be the party with no principles that poll-tests everything with a finger in the wind.

    But no, let's ignore all that and focus all our attention on the fact that Hillary's ad had a half-second of bin Laden footage.  I just love people who are so blinded that they can't see the negativity of Obama's campaign.

    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by Steve M on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:00:27 AM EST
    Back before the voting began, when Hillary was way ahead in every poll, she agreed to debate after debate.

    After the ridiculous Philly debate, where she was unfairly attacked not just by all the other candidates but by the NBC moderators as well, she registered a complaint about the pile-on but she kept showing up for debate after debate.

    But somehow, now that Obama is ahead, his supporters find it the most logical proposition ever that the leader shouldn't have to debate if he doesn't want to, that if moderators ask you unfair questions at one debate you can just cancel all the other ones.  I just love the sort of logic that says we've had 21 debates so we don't need any more - so let's use that night to attend our 83,000th rally or fundraiser instead.

    Why would the likely Democratic nominee shy away from a free hour of national TV exposure?  I know why Bush doesn't like to answer questions from the media.  But I want Obama to be better than that.

    want Obama to be better.. (none / 0) (#216)
    by miguelito on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:22:38 AM EST
    he's not

    Parent
    Hey now (5.00 / 1) (#224)
    by Steve M on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:31:13 AM EST
    Better than Bush is a low bar.  Why, I have it on good authority that even John McCain would be better than Bush!

    Parent
    Uhh (none / 0) (#235)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:41:19 AM EST
    Obama has been ahead for a few months now and has done several debates.  

    I have no problem with a debate.  I do have a problem with a circular firing squad in which both candidates are simply attacking each other.  

    Maybe HilRod wants that but I see no value to it.

    Parent

    Like I said (5.00 / 1) (#239)
    by Steve M on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:49:13 AM EST
    Hillary didn't have any problem with continuing to debate even when she was being attacked by multiple candidates as well as the moderators.  I don't think you realize how absurd it is to say "I'm fine with debating, as long as my candidate isn't getting attacked."

    I watched Obama's speech Tuesday night where he trashed Hillary over and over and over again.  But no, God forbid there should be any attacking at an actual debate, where both sides get a chance to respond.

    Parent

    HilRod? (5.00 / 1) (#248)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:00:37 PM EST
    Howabout BarHus?


    Parent
    HilRod (none / 0) (#251)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:02:01 PM EST
    was what she called herself in the preview to the WWE that she taped.

    I think it's cute.

    Parent

    when people start saying (1.00 / 1) (#4)
    by TruthMatters on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:09:55 AM EST
    that questions about flag pins are legitimate questions for debates,

    then yeah we have had enough of them.

    There was more than "flag pins" (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by Davidson on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:30:33 AM EST
    There was actual substance, but Obama messed that up horribly in the Philly debate.  He was flat-out not prepared to handle any criticism (legitimate or otherwise) or policy questions.  He looked like a novice who was pissed about having to do any work.

    If you have such a problem with "flag pins," you must have a problem with empty platitudes, like, "hope" and "change," right?  When you have a candidate who is a blank canvas people will look to whatever they can to try to figure him out.  Who he considers a moral compass (Wright) or a friend will be fair game because he made it so by running a personality campaign.

    Parent

    Aw jeez, then there would be another book (none / 0) (#234)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:40:25 AM EST
    New joke book in 09. "Gaffe's from a President09."The continuing saga.

    Parent
    I am just surprised by this kind of (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Marvin42 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:50:02 AM EST
    response. Don't you think that the question was a PERFECT set up for him to start laying to rest all kinds of crap the republicans will throw at him? The question was valid in the context of what is to come. Just because we want to say its not valid doesn't mean it won't come up.

    Parent
    he can talk about it now or later (none / 0) (#7)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:13:36 AM EST
    the republicans will bring it up.
    count on it.

    Parent
    why would they (none / 0) (#9)
    by TruthMatters on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:15:26 AM EST
    once again NO one wears the, not the people asking Obama the questions, not john McCain not, Hillary Clinton,

    but for some reason this is a question Obama has to answer?

    can someone tell me why Hillary or McCain don't wear one?

    why don't they love this country?

    Parent

    quyestion (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:20:50 AM EST
    do you think John Kerry shot himself to get out of the military?
    neither do I but many people do because of the last election.
    logic has little to do with it.

    Parent
    Obama only has himself to blame (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by pie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:34:11 AM EST
    for the flag pin controversy.  His remarks by his wife only served to fuel the fire.

    It seems stupid and hypocritical for others to criticize him for this, but they didn't say it.  He did.  It was a gift, because he hasn't come up with a way to put out the flames.  It appeals to emotion.

    Good luck with that.

    Parent

    That's because Obama made an issue about (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by Serene1 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:37:28 AM EST
    it previously when he sanctimoniously declared that the reason he never wore one was as a protest against Iraq war or something like that. Mind you he said this in Chicago where being Ultra liberal is considered uber cool. Since he never had the habit of flowing against the tide, now he backtracks on the same.

    Regarding the Deabate, Obama keeps justifying his loss in the big states as not enough voter recognition. If that be the case then wouldn't the best strategy be for him to debate Hillary and prove why he is better and deserves a chance.

    Obama is resembling Bush more and more by the day. Bush was another contender who never enjoyed debates or press conferences.I

    Parent

    That is silly! (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Leisa on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:42:46 AM EST
    That was a softball question...  Why do you whine about easy questions like the one about flag pins???

    Parent
    why do you whine (1.00 / 2) (#52)
    by TruthMatters on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:45:23 AM EST
    about wanting more debates, when really its only about getting Hillary more free ad time?

    Parent
    Because the voters of Indiana (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:48:19 AM EST
    and North Carolina wanted them.

    Obama won't do them.

    Why not?

    Parent

    actually, (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by ccpup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:50:12 AM EST
    it's less about free ad time and more about the entertainment value of watching Hillary effortlessly run circles around Obama while he huffs and puffs and gets more and more peeved.

    Nothing better than a bowl of popcorn, one of my dogs asleep next to me on the couch and listening to Hillary, the true expert, answer tough questions while Barack the newbie looks lost, forlorn, utterly idiotic and completely out of his Hope and Change element.

    Parent

    Only Hillary (none / 0) (#55)
    by pie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:46:59 AM EST
    gets free ad time?

    What's Obama?  Chopped liver?

    Parent

    Well he's so horrible at debates (5.00 / 5) (#99)
    by rooge04 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:04:44 AM EST
    that they claim it's free ad time for Hillary. Since you know, she's GREAT at them. It's an ad because she's so damn good and he stinks so badly at them.

    Parent
    That's a pretty telling admission. (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by pie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:07:58 AM EST
    What does it say about debates with McCain?!

    Parent
    Why is a debate free ad time (none / 0) (#85)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:59:15 AM EST
    For Clinton and not for Obama?

    Parent
    because (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:01:57 AM EST
    she can handle it and he cant

    Parent
    HEY TRUTHMATTERS, ARIANNA IS LOOKING FOR YOU (none / 0) (#286)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:41:22 PM EST
    It's is your shift for posting anti-Hillary rhetoric over on HuffPost.  You know, like you do everyday.

    Parent
    Debates (none / 0) (#149)
    by AnninCA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:28:51 AM EST
    have always thrown in some silly question or another.  Usually candidates handle that deftly and politely.

    Frankly, the only reason it was even a big deal is because he arrogantly made the remark that he found wearing lapel pins to be "phony" symbols of patriotism.

    Why anyone considering running for the presidency would adopt that stance is beyond me.  

    All of his remarks that were brought up, frankly, are of his own doing.

    Parent

    TruthMatters, I take issue with this... (none / 0) (#271)
    by lookoverthere on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:06:11 PM EST
    It wasn't a stupid question. The flag pin question came from a voter. Whether you think the issue is important, or even whether a candiate thinks the issue is important, doesn't matter.

    The voter clearly thought it was important.

    When I heard it, I thought it was a nice soft pitch that Sen. Obama would smash out of the ballpark and gain some confidence for the rest of the debate. He has a good answer to this and he could have shown some respect to the voter.

    His response, however, was weak. Whining about the question is not a winning strategy. Dismissing the person who asked the question was disrespectful to her concerns and also not a winning strategy.

    When you're a politician trying to earn votes, no question is a stupid question. Every question is an opportunity. Sen. Obama blew his chance.

    Parent

    YES - great idea! (none / 0) (#1)
    by Josey on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:06:45 AM EST



    After PA (none / 0) (#3)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:09:13 AM EST
    After the negative reaction from Obama and his supporters, I don't see any chance of another debate. He didn't come off well in that debate and it cost him. Unfortunately, he will have to debate McCain if he's the nominee and he doesn't come off well in the situation. He much prefers to pontificate rather than to deal in nuts and bolts. My only hope for a Democratic president is that McCain doesn't do that well either! (But the media and public will excuse McCain. They won't Obama).

    HRC should really be (none / 0) (#12)
    by Lena on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:19:47 AM EST
    pressuring Obama to do the debate. More than one, if possible. She shines in them, and he often seems lost at sea.

    All her surrogates should be out there today, tomorrow, and until Obama agrees, challenging him day in and day out. It's really a showcase for her to display her vast knowledge, and they haven't covered nearly enough about her (his?) plans for the country.

    Discussing her deterrence theory is just one reason she needs the debate. She needs to clear up people's misconceptions about her plans for the middle east. Plus, for the less well-financed candidate to get free airtime is an additional boon. She will shine and connect with Indiana voters, and if Pa. is any indication, they will watch.

    The HRC camp should be on this like white on rice until Obama gives in on this.

    Debates and N.C. GOP Attack Ads (none / 0) (#18)
    by bison on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:23:38 AM EST
    I am for debates but I am aginst the N.C. GOP ad attack against gubernatorial candidates Perdue and Moore that connects them with Obama and Rev. Wright that is going to aired on local stations, the ad does not reflect North Carolina values. There are several subliminal coded race messages lodged in the ad . The National Republican Party and Senator Mc Cain have asked the N.C. GOP to take down the ad. It has refused. I have asked local stations not to contribute to stirring up racial animus. I wanted to let our local media markets know how we feel, if they choose to air the advertisement. We are their viewers  Also I am have asked Senator Dole and  Senator Burr not to contribute to stirring up racial animosity. I want both of them to join Senator McCain demand that the N.C. GOP attack ads be pulled.  The Clinton campaign has been conspicuously slight on this issue.   Race is in the campaign because Senator Obama is an African American, but racist tentacles do not have to be  in grained in  this campaign.  We are better than this as a nation, as North Carolinians.


    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Lena on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:34:36 AM EST
    that Clinton should denounce (and reject!) these horrible ads.

    I am glad that the Dem party can stand together against racism, even while I condemn it for being so silent about all the sexism that's been hurled at HRC.

    If HRC stands up for Obama, even though he never stood up for her against some of the really gross sexist comments that were hurled at her, it'll show her to be a much bigger person than he has been on the discrimination issue. An added bonus for her.

    Parent

    I think she should and I think she will (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:37:36 AM EST
    She has no reason to get involved in (5.00 / 2) (#206)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:13:26 AM EST
    a GOP situation. Anything she says will be twisted into something negative by the Obama bunch. Like somehow she
    endorsed it instead of denouncing it. No thanks.

    Parent
    By George, (5.00 / 1) (#214)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:21:50 AM EST
    I think you've got it!

    If she brings up the ads, even if she denounces them 400 times, the Obamans will seize upon one or two words to prove she is really "for" them.

    Now that I think about it from that point of view, I hope she stays silent.

    Parent

    They'll say she's trying to keep the story (none / 0) (#237)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:46:45 AM EST
    going just like they did when she answered a question about Wright the first time.

    Parent
    That's right, (none / 0) (#245)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:55:51 AM EST
    even though she didn't say anything for a week and only stated how she would have acted had she been Obama.

    IACF.

    Parent

    I don't think she can win... (none / 0) (#270)
    by NWHiker on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:58:38 PM EST
    on this issue. She's going to be blamed no matter what she says or does.

    If she speaks out, she's keeping the story alive, if she doesn't, she's complicit.

    But she's brighter than I am, so I hope she finds a way of denouncing them.

    Also, in the line of "brighter than I", I guess I'm missing the racial subtext of the ad. If Obama and his pastor were white, the ad would be just the same, imo.

    Parent

    we have no control over the gop. (none / 0) (#35)
    by Salo on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:36:42 AM EST
    The ads are Obama's chickens coming (none / 0) (#261)
    by FlaDemFem on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:18:10 PM EST
    home to roost. They aren't racist, they are showing that Obama went to a church where the preacher said "Goddamn America" among other things. Any politician who had an eye on the future, and more than two brain cells to rub together, would have steered clear of a church that is that controversial. Obama not only didn't, but he stuck around for 20 years. This does not speak to good judgment on his part. So if he is getting hammered with Wright, he only brought it on himself. It is not because Wright is black that they are pillorying Obama with him, it's because he says things like "Goddamn America" and "AmericKKK", and that HIV is a white plot to get rid of black people. If Obama had the brains God gave a goat, he would have been gone from that church years ago. There are lots of black churches in Chicago that have the liberation theology without the hate that is evident in the sermons at Trinity. He could have chosen one of those to attend. He didn't. And now it's coming back to bite him in the butt. Well, that isn't racism, it's a preacher condemning the country Obama thinks he is fit to lead. That is the problem Obama has with Wright, not the fact that he is black. It's the fact that he thought of this hate-spewing minister as a mentor and friend. And said so publicly on many occasions. Obama has only himself to blame for the Wright controversy. It's not about racism, it's about not wanting someone in the White House whose mentor and friend says "Goddamn America".

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#264)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:27:45 PM EST
    and it's what I've said all along.

    Most white people with brains know that African Americans have legitimate grievances about how they've been treated, and are still treated, by the American government. It's understandable that they would be angry.

    But do not tell Americans that they should say "God D*mn America." That's anti-country, not anti-government.

    And that is totally unacceptable. Any idiot should have known that. That's why I laugh when Obama claims to have better judgment than HRC.

    As she said, "He would not have been my pastor."

    DUH.

    Parent

    bison, not once do you urge Sen. Obama (none / 0) (#272)
    by lookoverthere on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:25:01 PM EST
    to defend himself. You demand others do it for him. Is he so weak he can't defend himself? He needs Sen. Clinton to ride to his rescue?

    And no, I didn't read the ads as racist, coded or otherwise. Your argument saying that they are considerably weakens your demand that the ads cease, so much so that it's hard to take your demand seriously.

    Rev. Wright said what he said, then his church sold the DVDs. There's nothing underhanded or racist about it.

    However, guilt by association sucks. It really, really sucks. Sen. Obama could've come out front on this with his own ad: "I've lived an interesting life and known interesting people. I don't always agree with them. In fact, I often argue and dispute with them. But I try to understand them. Even good ideas can come from people you disagree with."

    That falls within his own messaging of unity and change.

    And BTW, Sen. Clinton might go on offense with this to protect Sen. Obama because 1) she knows what it's like and 2) it shows how strong she is, politically and personally. Would that make the news? Doubt it. Would Sen. Obama and his supporters thank her and return the favor?

    Parent

    This is pretty funny... (none / 0) (#40)
    by white n az on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:38:12 AM EST
    because there have been enough debates and I thought the piling on that occurred when Obama deferred on a debate in NC was uncalled for.

    But if IN is calling for debates, how can Obama say yes to a debate in IN without insulting NC?

    He can't. (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by ccpup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:44:52 AM EST
    So he's evidently painted himself into a bit of a whiny corner where it appears as if he's refusing to take hard questions and runs the strong risk of appearing either intimidated, weak or unprepared for adversity.

    Of course, this leaves Hillary with the chance to not only look strong where he looks weak, but to engage the people of Indiana in Town Hall forums where people are invited and encouraged to ask tough questions.  And where will Obama be?

    On-stage in the spotlight making the same damn speech he's been making for months with no one getting a chance to ask anything at all.

    I strongly suspect the voters of Indiana want answers not hype.

    Parent

    He doesn't need (none / 0) (#50)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:44:13 AM EST
    those voters to win. They are old-school. All he'll need are new, young, wealthy, Obamacan, and AA voters. So who cares what they think?

    /takes another swig of Kool-Aid

    Parent

    Let's be serious. (none / 0) (#59)
    by pie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:48:43 AM EST
    :-)

    Parent
    Oh, let's not and say we did. :-) (none / 0) (#83)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:59:04 AM EST
    I just can't take these Obama talking points seriously any more. What I wrote is, in effect, his electability argument.

    And the bots who copy their posts directly from Axelrove's campaign memos are quite tiresome.

    So I just gotta laugh, sometimes. :-)

    Parent

    Quite the conundrum to be sure. (none / 0) (#125)
    by Radix on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:14:34 AM EST
    This was completely of Obama's own making though.

    Parent
    inexperience, frustration, anger (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by ccpup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:43:00 AM EST
    and the self-congratulatory sense that the Nomination is in the bag (okay, Hillary?!) is probably not the best emotional space from which to make potentially long-range decisions like not taking part in debates.

    I imagine Hillary had to fight back an almost gleeful laughter when he offered her this hole bigger than a highway to drive through.  

    When your opponent is showing his inexperience by shooting himself in the foot left and right, best thing to do is get out of the way and start talking up your strengths ... which is exactly what she's doing.

    So, he'll make his standard stump speech (snore) and offer kisses for votes (um ... that's just creepy) while she meets the voters in Town Hall settings where she answers their questions intelligently and without hesitation, shows herself to be strong, intelligent and deeply informed on the issues and, at the end of the day, Indiana will choose her impressive Brains and Experience over his hyped-up Hope.

    Parent

    Unfit (none / 0) (#90)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:01:27 AM EST
    I find it interesting that someone would take offense to Hilary saying Obama is unfit for president. He has continually berated the WJC years. He glows at the wonders of Ronald Reagan. And that's fine. But for Hilary to say anything against him is wrong?

    Didja know (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:19:40 AM EST
    that Huckabee and Hillary BOTH START WITH AN "H"? They are teh same!!!!111!!!!

    Parent
    I hope that, like Obama, you have (none / 0) (#132)
    by MarkL on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:17:31 AM EST
    prepared a whine for when you are banned (which won't be long).
    Is this ObamaMama again?

    Parent
    you frame is off (none / 0) (#137)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:20:07 AM EST
    Hillary is not saying he is unfit.
    she is saying he cant win.  or possibly that he is "unfit" to win.
    whatever.  its not the same thing.
    he cant win.  she is correct.
    why souldnt she say it?


    Parent
    Electability= Competence (none / 0) (#110)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:08:59 AM EST
    What did Americans learn from Bush?  You cannot pick the guy you like you have to pick the competent one.  What is Obama's story?  The same as the Bush story:  not from Washington, nice guy, will do things different.  Guess what?  Americans learned from Iraq, Katrina, budget, economy, that you need competence in the presidency.  

    Obama  campaign is playing the election theme of past times: Likeable outsider.  Hillary is proving to people, even if they don't like her, they know she can do the job and get impressed by her.  That is why when they go in the booth, they vote for her.  People are afraid, yes I am afraid.  I don't need another newbie with people who can sway him here or there who is always of two minds.  

    Hillary is competent and fearless and people get it.  Sorry elites, they figured it out and you are still on the transcended hopemobile.  

    Both say the "married up"-phrase BushBoy (5.00 / 2) (#196)
    by jawbone on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:59:18 AM EST
    uses which drives me crazy.

    And now Obama said about Michelle.

    It is so patronizing--and they don't even realize it.


    Parent

    My dad uses it too... (none / 0) (#221)
    by kredwyn on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:28:57 AM EST
    He adores my mother and sees it as an acknowledgment that she could've married any of the other guys around or none...but she chose him. He always gets this goofy grin on his face.

    She could've too...

    I suspect that it's not meant to be condescending.

    Parent

    Richardson tried that too! (none / 0) (#124)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:14:31 AM EST
    He tried to walk that tightrope.

    She can keep running but stop with the negative ads.

    First of all, the one ad in question, it NEVER.  It NOT ONCE brought up Obama.  In a montage it referenced many historical situations that faced presidents.  And then referenced many topical situations that will face our next president.

    And then it asked "Who will be better prepared to handle those situations?"

    Apparently, just simply asking that question is a negative attack on Obama.  Oh man.  That's really sad.

    But the bottom line is your talking point boils down to "she can stay in the race, but she can't make an argument for herself because to do that now is a vicious attack on Obama."

    Stupid talking point.

    But OK fine.  Lets play that game for a second.  She feels she's better prepared to handle a crisis.  I, and most of her supporters, feel that she's better prepared to handle a crisis.  We even concede that Obama gives a better speech.  And, given that policy differences are hard to come by (although there are some), the one real substantive difference that voters should think about is, if they're the same on policy, who will handle the crisis better, who will better implement that policy?

    Now.  If that's her case.  I'll leave it up to you to tell us how she can make that case without implying that Obama isn't AS READY to handle a crisis??

    Let us know your thoughts on how she can do that.

    If your position is that she should stop trying to make that argument, (but she can still stay in the race), then go ahead and say that too.

    And then we can draw our own conclusions about your position on this issue.

    A Real Debate (none / 0) (#130)
    by TheBostonianProudhon on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:16:51 AM EST
    Is there any reason, or could anyone point me to a good source, on why national debates don't follow standard debate protocol that one might find on a high school or collegiate debate team?

    So far the major primary debates have seemed completely arbitrary affairs designed specifically to create talking points and stifle actual discussion of issues.  In part this strikes me as one of the reasons the MSM and others have been able to paint Hilldawg and O'bama as not differing on all that much (I personally don't think they do - but I'm legitimately and happily insane on a Mike Gravel level).

    I'd be happy to see a substantive debate that's actually a DEBATE and not a Q&A on fluff with two or more people.  Am I the only person that feels this way?  Surely not.  And if I'm not then why aren't we calling for REAL debates instead of MORE debates.  After 20-odd Q&A's I honestly don't care one lick if Obama and Hillary are on stage together again for the rest of their lives unless they're both held to the fire of legitimate debate.

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by AnninCA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:46:53 AM EST
    and believe each debate has gotten a little bit deeper into the issues.

    There are still several issues yet to be discussed that would be of interest.

    Social Security
    Immigration
    Bi-Partisan strategies.  (I still don't really get that one.  You can't make the other guys play the game YOUR way.  So just saying it doesn't mean anything.  Where's the real experience in doing this?)

    Parent

    A real SCIENCE debate would ge great! (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by jawbone on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:00:43 AM EST
    What would that look (none / 0) (#244)
    by AnninCA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:54:09 AM EST
    like to you?

    Focus on what the issues facing us are on climate change?

    Interesting idea, although I'm pretty sure Indiana would be more interested in economy.

    Great idea for NC, though. Lots of educated voters in that state connected to research.

    Parent

    In HRC's victory speech, (none / 0) (#247)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:58:33 AM EST
    she gave a coded shout-out to stem cell research, I think, when she talked about curing Alzheimer's and ending the war on science.

    I'd like to hear more about how she intends to improve science education and whether or not she will fully fund stem-cell research. Things like that would work for me.

    Parent

    Hilldawg? Not cool. (none / 0) (#218)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:25:53 AM EST
    My apologies (none / 0) (#225)
    by TheBostonianProudhon on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:31:46 AM EST
    Not intended in an insulting way.  Forgive any crude attempts at lightness on my part, or my tendency to embrace things that roll off the tongue.  Or don't forgive me if you don't feel inclined, I can occasionally manage without everyone's approval.

    Though, if I may ask (as I'm a Johnny Come-Lately to the Pro-Hillary scene), why is it uncool?  

    Parent

    I'd like to hear more about (none / 0) (#232)
    by joanneleon on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:39:46 AM EST
    the "umbrella of deterrence" too.  I'd also like to hear more about Obama's plan for the Middle East and for getting out of Iraq, with some more specifics.

    I'd like to hear more from both of them on the economy and on the environment/global warming.

    I want to hear more about trade agreements and free trade vs. fair trade.

    Lastly, I'd like to hear about how they plan to repair the damage done to our Constitution, on holding the Bush administration accountable, on FISA, torture, and related issues.

    My topics would be (5.00 / 1) (#263)
    by AnninCA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:21:10 PM EST
    Social Security  Obama said some scary things early on.  I'd like to know his position now.

    Global warming and the need or not need for research/relationship to the executive office

    Position on privacy laws for citizens

    Government agency rebuilding plans.

    I'm pretty much done with free trade, health care, and the war.

    Parent

    Now THAT'S a debate (none / 0) (#241)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:51:08 AM EST
    I'd love to see! :-)

    Parent
    Go to Obama's website (none / 0) (#254)
    by lilybart on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:07:24 PM EST
    all his positions are there under Issues.

    I love how people insist he has given no specifics when the website covers it all.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#260)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:18:08 PM EST
    It is an empty talking point, just like Obama is lazy and unqualified,  and Hillary is shrill and polarizing. Both are almost identical policy wise and take similar approaches when it comes to reaching across the aisle.

    Parent
    Why should I? (none / 0) (#273)
    by ChrisO on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:33:40 PM EST
    I'm tired of being told by Obama supporters to go to his web site, or read his book. I expect the candidates to tell me what they think without having to go hunting for the information. If I want an answer to a specific question, I'll go look. But it's the height of arrogance to say that you can't criticize a candidate unless you've devoured everything on his web site.

    And by the way, I have gone to his site more than once. I saw a lot of the same platitudes I hear from him in person.

    Parent

    Yes That Would Be Good (none / 0) (#257)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:11:54 PM EST
    Neither of them have been grilled on the specifics of withdrawal from Iraq, in that both hedge when it comes to contingincies that could prevent a withdrawal. What if the Iraqis do not want us there at all?  We have built the largest embassy in the world there as occupiers, what if they tell us to leave?

    If al Sadr's supporters are not all jailed or shot before the October election he stands to gain major power. He has brought in the Sunnis and is for a unified Iraq. He is also for total withdrawal of US troops. What if Iraq aligns with Iran, Syria and other non US allies, will we continue a war there until all the those voicing anti american sentiment are killed or jailed?

    And why do they both assume a war on terror is any more winnable than a war on drugs? Isn't that just perpetuating GOP BS?  

    Parent

    Just Don't Cut Into O's Waffle Eating Time.... (none / 0) (#287)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:46:57 PM EST
    Just have to say (none / 0) (#233)
    by pie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:40:03 AM EST
    that it's now a bit confusing reading this thread with the troll comments deleted.  Good thing I read them earlier.  :)

    N.C. GOP Attack Ad (none / 0) (#242)
    by bison on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 11:52:06 AM EST
    The N.C. GOP attack ad against gubernatorial candidates Perdue and Moore that connects them with Obama and Rev. Wright that is going to aired on local stations, the ad does not reflect North Carolina values. There are several subliminal coded race messages lodged in the ad.  The National Republican Party and Senator Mc Cain have asked the N.C. GOP to take down the ad. It has refused. I can appreciate the difficult decisions regarding selection of news, ads, and the pressures involved in those management decisions. This morning our  local WRAL TV station decided not to air the NC GOP attack ad at a critical time in our national  and state electoral process.  They should be applauded. I' m suggesting that other news outlets follow their lead.  The image is in the public domain. People must get involved. boycott  N. C local stations and then advertisers if they continue to do this.

    The Rev. Wright ad  as well as the one about gangs is not just  about politics. There are several subliminal coded race messages lodged in the ads.   These stations are not merely informing the public but they are unwittingly contributing to stirring up racial animus in our community.  The ads do not bring out the best in us.

    Also I am have asked Senator Dole and  Senator Burr not to contribute to stirring up racial animosity. I want both of them to join Senator McCain in demanding that the N.C. GOP attack ads be pulled.  The Clinton campaign has been conspicuously slight on this issue.   Race and gender are in this campaign because Senator Obama is an African American and Senator Clinton is a woman, but racist and misogynist tentacles do not have to be ingrained commercial ads.  We are better than this as a nation, as North Carolinians.

    I' m asking them to make an ethical and not a political or commercial decision

    If it's the ad I've seen (none / 0) (#256)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:09:41 PM EST
    I'd like to know what coded subliminal race messages I'm missing in it?

    I admit I haven't seen the one with gangs in it.

    The one about Wright basically plays the clip of Wright and then creates the case of guilt by association.  I might disagree with that case, but of course Clinton can't even be in the same room with Scaife for 10 minutes before she is condemned, so OK.

    Whatever.

    Anyway, I don't see any racial overtones in the Rev. Wright ad.

    It's very straight forward.  No blond floozies saying "call me" like we've seen before in the attack ads on Harold Ford.

    What am I missing?

    Parent

    pssst - open thread available (none / 0) (#262)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:18:49 PM EST


    I actually didn't have much of a problem (none / 0) (#274)
    by ChrisO on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:40:41 PM EST
    with the last debate. Many of the questions were silly, but Obama showed an amazing lack of ability to deal with them. And I was glad to see him finally get asked about the disparity between his comments in the Rolling Stone article and his comments when the Wright story broke. I understand why his campaign does it, but I find it incredibly annoying when they declare that a topic is off the table because they've issued a statement on it, or he's given a speech, as if whatever they've said is Absolute Truth and Beyond Question. This was the fist debate since the story broke, and it was perfectly legitimate to ask him about it. Sorry if his supporters are tired of hearing about it.

    What Obama supporters don't want to discuss is the fact that the second half of the debate was all about policy, and Hillary wiped the floor with him.