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Thursday Open Thread

I'm at work today and our threads are filling up fast so here's an open thread for you to pick the topics.

Yesterday, Obama supporter and UCLA Prof. Mark Kleiman and I debated the PA primary results on Bloggingheads tv. We had tremendous technical difficulties, not only couldn't I hear Mark well through his headphone, but we had to do the hour debate three times -- my computer crashed at the end of the first one losing the video and then his did at the end of the second. By the third time, it felt like a cross between being a broken record and forgetting to repeat our best arguments. But, if you'd like to watch it, it's broken down into segments and here it is.

Next time Mark and I are going to debate crime issues.

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    I mentioned this yesterday, (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:13:31 PM EST
    but I am a tad freaked out about the GOP's attack ads in SC and their potential effect on down-ticket votes. They go after Obama's superdelegates, not Obama himself! That, I didn't expect.

    I know that Obama supporters often say that their guy will have bigger coattails, but for the life of me I can't find any evidence to support this. Democrats for a Day? Obamacans? Independents? Where is the proof that they will vote Democratic all the way down the ticket?

    Is there such a thing as negative coattails? (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by stillife on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:25:25 PM EST
    b/c that's what Obama will have in November if he's the nominee.

    The Wright stuff is not going away - I'm only surprised that it's being used so early and to target local candidates.

    Parent

    Negative coatails? you bet (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Prabhata on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:34:40 PM EST
    Jimmy Carter lost, and with him many Democrats.

    Parent
    That's already happened in (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by magster on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:02:44 PM EST
    IL-14 and MD-04.

    Parent
    the Wright stuff is being used by HIllary (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by lilybart on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:16:53 PM EST
    and all her supporters. You all are keeping it alive.

    Let's see, he refused deferrment, volunteered to serve in Vietnam, has White House commendations...just what is so bad?

    Parent

    We're not the ones who are keeping it alive (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by stillife on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:53:37 PM EST
    If you truly believe that, you're very naive.

    The Republicans are all over it and won't be stopping anytime soon.

    Get real.  Wright volunteered to serve in Vietnam?  BFD, especially when stacked up against McCain the War Hero, who could have obtained early release but refused to do so because it wasn't fair to the POW's who were there with him.

    How do you think that's gonna play against G-D America?  

    Parent

    John Kerry and Max Cleleand (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by standingup on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:14:44 PM EST
    served in Viet Nam too but did that stop the Republicans from swiftboating them? And it looks like they are trying to take it a step further this year by attaching it to other Dems.

    This is Obama's problem of his own creation and his to put to bed. Stop trying to project the his problems onto Hillary or her supporters.

    Parent

    Would Like To See Some Poll Results On (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:27:16 PM EST
    what effect these ads have on the N.C. Dems who endorsed Obama. This tactic will be used against all down ticket candidates who have endorsed Obama and it would be nice to have some indication on how effective it will be.

    I was afraid that this would happen. Also, Wright is not the only issue that the Republicans can use Obama's words and actions to reinforce their preexisting frames on Democrats. Not sure that there is any existing frame that Obama hasn't reinforced.

    Parent

    Won't be used only on Dems who endorsed (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by RalphB on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:42:57 PM EST
    Obama.  Once he becomes the nominee, God forbid, it will be used against every democrat period.  After all, he'll be the leader of the party so everyone will be fair game.


    Parent
    Have you heard the joke (none / 0) (#14)
    by stillife on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:31:59 PM EST
    what do Barack Obama and Osama bin Laden have in common?

    They both have friends who bombed the Pentagon.

    Expect a lot more of that in upcoming months.

    Parent

    That's a bad joke. (none / 0) (#17)
    by Prabhata on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:36:13 PM EST
    Obama went after Clinton's super-delegates (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Cream City on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:24:07 PM EST
    using the "race card."  So it seems poetic justice, somehow, that Repubs now go after Obama's super-delegates on that basis.

    But yes, it's a sign again of bad times down-ticket for Dems, as we've said here before about the need for coat-tails come election day to get more Dems in Congress.  Even if we do get a Dem in the White House, we need more Dems in Congress.  And if we don't get a Dem in the White House, we desperately need more Dems in Congress.

    Parent

    Obama win spells doom sez the pit of my stomach (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:51:04 PM EST
    And this isn't just the GWB "First Gut" answer he gives after not using his coconut for an analytical function. (Yeah, I know, not capable of generating much, but even a piña colada's worth of juice would suffice here.)

    As Sen Clinton's fans (and neutral observers elsewhere) have noted, Obama-mentum has been greatly assisted at the outset, and more lately, entirely reliant on being carred by forces outside his own magnetism (for resources, power and coverage) besides Charisma(TM).

    Obama has been carried forward, is becoming exponentially "heavier", and by the time the Dems have to carry him on their own-some, he'll be an outright millstone in the GE.

    I'm not being a scaredy-cat fear-mongering evil monster white lady to say so. I've got plenty of good reasons provided by Obama himself for believing he'll be toast in the general election.

    YES I have worked in campaigns. YES I have worked on all aspects. No, you cannot afford me.

    Parent

    Buyers beware (none / 0) (#4)
    by Prabhata on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:18:41 PM EST
    It will be interesting to see how those ads impact the races being targeted and BO.  It should be a good year to elect Democrats, but if those ads are successful, it's bad news.

    Parent
    That's what I'm worried about. (none / 0) (#7)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:22:14 PM EST
    If we are going to get anything good passed through Congress, never mind any kind of accountability for the crimes of BushCo, then we need a LOT more Democrats in Congress.

    We can't afford to lose seats that should be easy pickups for us.

    Parent

    We'll be sending... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:46:36 PM EST
    ...a shiny new Democrat to the Senate and retaining all of the seats currently held.  Now, if only we could get rid of Marilyn Muskrat, life would be good.  

    Parent
    Isn't SC a hopeless cause? (none / 0) (#47)
    by lilybart on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:15:35 PM EST
    SC is the most Christianist of all. Are there ANY democrats in elected office there?

    Parent
    The Ads Were Actually Run In NC And (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:23:35 PM EST
    not SC. Just providing this info for the sake of accuracy.

    Parent
    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by lilburro on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:19:17 PM EST
    I just read Dowd's terrible editorial from yesterday in the NYTimes today.  Perhaps it is the most emailed because it is by far the worst piece of writing she has done yet?  

    She seems to hate both women and men.  There are so many aspects of that editorial that are cringe-worthy.

    Perhaps this was already discussed.  But seriously, wasn't it terrible?

    WHY DOES SHE WRITE FOR THE NY TIMES?????

    She has a cutesy way (none / 0) (#6)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:21:07 PM EST
    of coining a phrase, and she is a woman who hates other women.

    Both of those traits are all the NYT seems to expect from its female columnists.

    I never read MoDo. Keeps my head from blowing off my shoulders. ;-)

    Parent

    I guess I'm a feminist (none / 0) (#13)
    by Prabhata on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:31:04 PM EST
    I women or men who hate women are people who resent their mother.  Mother is the first woman we encounter and will set how we experience other women.  Those who hate women for no apparent reason, that is.

    Parent
    Modo likes "real men" (none / 0) (#12)
    by stillife on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:29:41 PM EST
    not "practically lactating" wimps like Gore.  I've loathed her ever since the 2000 election.  I'm not an Obama supporter, but even I can't stand her attacks on him, which will no doubt escalate if he runs against The Maverick, St. McCain.

    And of course her treatment of Hillary is absolutely loathsome.  

    Parent

    Desperately seeking validation: MoDo=Tweety (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:03:56 PM EST
    Different number on the box of cheap hair dye is all. The pathetic camp follower / hanger on streak in their work is predictable.

    Tell tale sign: they'll always be at the top of the swarming pile-on, when it's safest to avoid being a target themselves, and make sure to act like they generated the scene, as any good little fascists would.

    Remember, some are Useful Tools.

    MoDo (and Tweety) are Just Tools.

    Parent

    But (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by lilburro on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:30:42 PM EST
    does NYTimes = MSNBC?

    It's embarrasing.  They should just expand their funnies section instead of printing such drivel.

    Parent

    Obviously (none / 0) (#43)
    by AnninCA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    She's Randi with a pen.

    Parent
    Waffle Video (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:27:41 PM EST
    Here's a very short, neat video riff on waffle-gate: "Waffles Obama '08".

    I disagree with her (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41:41 PM EST
    This race is going to be hard to win.

    Maybe Because You (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:46:02 PM EST
    Are in the forest so to speak, entrenched by the Primary. Any close look at McCain tells me that America is done with that and will elect either Hillary or Obama in a heartbeat.

    Parent
    No, it's because (none / 0) (#29)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:49:46 PM EST
    I'm actually looking beyond the primary.

    Go check electoral-vote.com .

    Parent

    andgarden, no one is even (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by independent voter on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:44:07 PM EST
    running against McCain right now. You cannot honestly think these numbers will hold true when the Dems have a nominee.
    If every Dem and leaning Indie would just commit to voting for whomever the nominee is, there would be no reason to have any concern. It truly amazes me how many self-professed "progressives" state they will not vote (same as increasing McCain's vote total) or worse yet, actually vote for McCain if Obama is the nominee.
    It strikes me as the most childish,spiteful (cut-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face)attitude to adopt. I prefer Obama, but as I have consistently asserted, I will vote for the Democratic nominee. In my opinion, anything else is a lack of patriotism.

    Parent
    independent voter, spite (none / 0) (#81)
    by lookoverthere on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:51:57 PM EST
    notwithstanding, there are some people who will not vote for Sen. Obama should he be the Dem. nominee for substantive reasons. They will, however, elect downticket Dems, holding the Dem majorities and keeping McCain's policies at bay.

    And there are some people who think Sen. Obama would be worse than McCain as president. Whether you or I agree with that assessment doesn't matter---they think what they think and it's Sen. Obama's job to change their minds and earn their votes.

    It's not all spite.

    BTW, have you said this to Obama supporters who won't vote for Sen. Clinton when she becomes the nominee? I'd like to know what response you got. Thx.

    Parent

    The Obama supporters that I (none / 0) (#88)
    by independent voter on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:03:41 PM EST
    personally interact with feel exactly the same way, and would NEVER under any circumstances vote for McCain or refuse to vote (and stamp their feet). They rightly view a refusal to vote as equivalent to voting for the GOP. Sometimes when I hear supporters of Obama and Clinton, yes, both are guilty, state that they will "vote for McCain" if their candidate doesn't prevail....I have to wonder. Have you never had a disappointment before? Have you never taken what you considered second best because you could not have your first choice? It is honestly a mindset I just cannot understand.
    People who think an Obama presidency would be worse than a McCain presidency are Republicans.

    Parent
    Handle independentvoter, pls post concern at dKos (none / 0) (#89)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:09:09 PM EST
    Rilly, be the change you want to see in the world. Spread some of that concern equally among the two remaining camps. Now that you've lavished your clouds of concern on the sunny side of the Hill ...

    Have you asked Obama supporters to support a Sen Clinton win? No? If not, why not? Looking forward to reading your diary at O-range.

    Parent

    I did not post a diary here (none / 0) (#96)
    by independent voter on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:20:31 PM EST
    putting forth my POV, I just responded to another poster.
    I realize you do not like what I am saying because it does not allow you to feed your righteous(in your opinion) indignation, and asks you to look at the big picture. Funny, isn't it? I am not even registered as a Democrat, yet I believe I am more concerned about a Dem win in November than many of you.

    Parent
    Not a diarist? Write a hurtin song, paint a mural (none / 0) (#97)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:32:55 PM EST
    Whatever your metier or creative inclination, spread some of that lavish concern equally on both terrains.

    As for the free psychological workup, don't quitcher day job, whether serving the latte's at the neighborhood Sucky-Java Franchise or drinking them at Obama World Domination HQ.

    Since I hate wasting a post, here's an unprovoked non-sequitur on coffee. This whole latte-shorthand used by "elite" haters in Punditstan and self-congratulatory lovers of Real Down Home Folk ...

    Latte-drinking with a base of warm milk mixed with strong coffee or spiced tea (chai) is enjoyed throughout the world. To use the term disparagingly -- which I've done tongue in cheek above to tweak the nose of a troll -- is sheer GOP elitism and nativism.

    Maybe the right wing xenophobes and racists only noticing latte-drinking when it's on their cultural radar lash out at the practice as indicative of a pretense, but it's something MOST OF THE WORLD enjoys in their eating and drinking.

    And as for the suggestion of coffee-loving as effeteness? If you want a serious ass-kicking just get between a Marseille truck driver and his demi-tasse, or question a Genoa sailor about his dainty ounce of NASA-grade morning fuel of Espresso.

    Parent

    Isn't That A Bit (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    Early to look at? My guess is that those numbers will change once we choose a nominee.

    Parent
    I'm with andgarden (none / 0) (#41)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:05:48 PM EST
    we underestimate McCain's appeal at our own peril.  He is not going to be easy to beat by any stretch.

    Parent
    please repost digby's comment (none / 0) (#42)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    without the profanity.

    Parent
    Voting Is Good (none / 0) (#92)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:14:28 PM EST
    digby:

    My views are horribly out of step with most of you, I recognize that. But I honestly think it's going to be nearly impossible to lose in the fall (although I think the outside Democratic groups need to start working on McCain's favorables sooner rather than later) so I'm just not feeling the panic about the primary. I like it when the voting process plays itself out rather than having the campaign spin and the media narratives telling the people what they are supposed to do. I've always felt that way. I still don't see this campaign as being particularly harsh by historical standards and I remain where I was at the beginning, believing that either candidate would be a good president and having no qualms about supporting either one of them. I just don't feel particularly emotional about it (except to the extent that I'm personally attacked for failing to feel properly emotional....) In fact, I hardly ever feel emotional about primaries. It's the conservatives (and chickensh[*]t Dems, which neither of these candidates are) who really get my blood boiling.

    I couldn't agree more

    Parent

    The Movement video via No Quarter (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Prabhata on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:45:54 PM EST
    It's an awesome video because I immigrated to San Francisco from Central America in 1964.  I still live in SF, and the video resonates with me.  For those who are old enough to have lived the 60s and 70s, the video explains why BO does not appeal to people our age.  We saw the best in MLK, Robert Kennedy, and one of the greatest changes in the 20th Century.  Hillary's comment that it took LBJ to pass the legislation JFK dreamed, is correct.  Words inspire, but it takes action to create changes.

    70's gal here...... (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by AnninCA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:18:45 PM EST
    Where are my bell-bottoms.  :)

    I agree.  But watching my son so LOVE Nader reminded me to be gentle with young voters.  Bill Clinton was right.  They are young and naive, but they aren't stupid.

    What the underlying drive that Obama tapped into is very much OK with me.  I get it.  It is most definitely about real change.

    But Obama has framed that about "old-style" politics and is now in a corner, since he's about as "old-style" as you get.  Shoot, I was a precinct chair in Indiana in the heyday of Chicago politics.  I know exactly what this guy is all about.

    But the motivation for change?

    That's legitimate.  And I don't think the youthful voters need to be dismissed as stupid.

    What I think is real leadership is when you help them understand that change is through rebuilding the government infrastructure that supports them.  No more gutting of the consumer agencies, for example.  FEMA IS relevant.  

    I think real leadership is when you help them understand that we are, in fact, a super-power and will always be involved on a global level....at least as long as all of us are alive.  

    I think real leadership is when you help them recognize that supporting initiatives from the White House can make or break good legislation.  It's not really about the "plans."  It's about the attitude.  Let the senators and representatives initiate.  That's their job.  The point is, which way is the wind blowing.  The executive branch is very powerful in its own way, but not entirely the whole story about our country.

    I don't think young people should be worried about how to implement, frankly.  They have no experience.  They don't know how this plays out.  They should be encouraged.

    What I haven't figured out is how NOT to hand them power.  They simply aren't ready for it.  I know they have the computer power.  Man, can they fire off e-mails.

    But we need to get that group into perspective.  Just go to some sites that shall not be named.  Look at the logic.  It's so juvinile.  I really hung in and tried to combat it, but I was called Rethug, Racist, and "Voted off the Island."

    OK.....but even though they won't get this, I still don't want to see their spirits squashed.  I watched my son go Green, give it up, and his spirit is a bit cynical but not squashed.

    Isn't that norm?

    Parent

    As a 56 year old (none / 0) (#103)
    by ChrisO on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 03:05:32 PM EST
    one of the things that relly turned me off to Obama is the way he dismissed the battles of the 60s and 70s as a bunch of people who just couldn't get along. He seems to completely dismiss the causes people fought for then (except for MLK, of course, whose mantle he's so eager to assume.) It really pisses me off when he decries the "partisan" attitude in Washington. If you want to advance the Democratic agenda and not the Republican one, guess what? You're a "partisan." And that's exactly what I want from my elected officials.

    I'd like to see the Republican attack machine go away, bit they're not "partisan," they're just evil. There's a big difference.

    Parent

    I agree with her (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by pie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:51:00 PM EST
    that it hasn't been a particularly harsh campaign, which is why I'm always amused at the outrage exhibited by some Obama supporters.

    But I'm beginning to think November could be another disappointment, which is a very frightening thought.

    The things you learn online... (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by kredwyn on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:58:30 PM EST
    Was over at the Sartorialist checking out his pictures and discovered that there's a conference on Fred Astaire.

    Very cool in a suave and debonair kinda way.

    'Studied' Astaire 2-ways: great dancer and dresser (none / 0) (#56)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:19:45 PM EST
    I have a history, fine arts and design background and dance-trained most of my life. I was surprised -- actually, not, given my love of his movies -- that Astaire got a substantial chunk of terms in the design AND dance categories.

    Astaire was nearly matched in the coolness department by two exquisite stylists: Gene Kelly and Cab Calloway. (Don't know how the experts would score a contest here, but it would definitely see a group of fans through an evening of comestibles and suds.)

    Parent

    Coincidentally my dress to dance on Cheney's grave (none / 0) (#65)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:26:43 PM EST
    It's a honey of a dress.

    I know, I know, some of you will give me some agg for the uncouthness I'm showing here.

    But I mentally tried it with fringe and felt that holding back JUST a bit to lend it a little gravitas made it feel just right.

    Parent

    Jerralyn (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by AnninCA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    I so enjoyed your debate with whats-his-face.  It was nice to put a "face" with you.

    I thought you made all the big points.

    This was a very "academic" debate, of course.  And you didn't have the information about the exit polls.

    I may be a cock-eyed optimist, but I look at the 2 suburbs of up-end, educated voters and I think, personally, Hillary is about to cut a new swath.

    I would really like to see her go after that vote in NC.

    That group is significant.

    Gas and Food..... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:17:22 PM EST
    any predictions as to when the riots start?

    We've hit 3.99 in parts of NYC.  Lock up your gas tank...the siphoners are already out!

    I smell sh*t hitting the fan....and quick.

    Run On Rice (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:22:13 PM EST
    At Walmart and Sam's Club, and that is in the USA. Now they are rationing rice in those stores.

    digby

    Parent

    I saw that.... (none / 0) (#77)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:45:40 PM EST
    I'm waiting for my favorite chinese food joint to jack their prices...they can't be making anything on their 4.99 roast pork and fried rice w/ wonton soup lunch special in these troubled times.

    Parent
    Locking the gas cap... (none / 0) (#74)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:36:25 PM EST
    ...hasn't stopped them out here.  They just drill a hole in the gas tank and drain it out.  

    You just know some idiot is going to get blown up sooner or later doing that.  

    It amazes me that in a time of World food shortage, we are taking food off the table to make fuel.  

    Parent

    Getting blown up.... (none / 0) (#84)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:55:20 PM EST
    well that would be one less person to feed:)  Paiging Mr. Darwin!

    The root problem as I see it is too many damn human beings on planet earth...and frankly I don't think there is anything that mankind can do about it...it's up to Mother Nature to thin the herd.  Some of us are gonna have to starve or we need another Black Plague...very very sorry to say.  Planet Earth is both glorious and cruel.

    In the meantime I'm gonna do my part by not reproducing...sun god bless birth control:)


    Parent

    Good editorial in Detroit News today (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Dawn Davenport on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:18:23 PM EST
    Michigan is becoming Clinton's secret weapon:

    Obama has proved to be a master of organization, but he made a tactical error not to plump up his skeletal apparatus in Michigan.

    As a result, he will almost certainly fall short of the 36 uncommitted delegates selected. Volunteers argued that only Obama supporters should be uncommitted delegates, but they were outmaneuvered. About half of the uncommitted delegates reserved the right to vote for Clinton, depending on whom their unions eventually endorse.

    Looks like he was a little too hasty in denying a revote in Michigan.

    Been waiting for an open thread: (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Molly Pitcher on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:22:30 PM EST
    Today, Google greeted me with the news that McSame was against the equal pay legislation because it would lead to more lawsuits.  Then I got email from "Senator Ted" asking for a petition signature in favor of votes for equal pay.  I sent the signature (without donation), plus this: "The wife you save could be your own.  Go Hillary.  Count the Florida votes."  Crying in the wilderness, I know.

    It's nice that it's sunny here in Tucson (none / 0) (#1)
    by Salo on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:11:50 PM EST
    Because the political situation looks grim.

    Oh dear. (none / 0) (#3)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:15:07 PM EST
    Your Senators are McCain and Kyl!

    You sure don't deserve that.

    I hear McCain is quite hated in his "home" state.

    Parent

    Justice, Sort Of (none / 0) (#8)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:25:02 PM EST
    It was sick that this case took so long, or that Kurtz was even arrested in the first place.
    BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) -- A judge threw out charges Monday against a college art professor accused of improperly obtaining biological materials for an exhibit protesting U.S. government food policies.

    U.S. District Judge Richard Arcara ruled that the 2004 mail and wire fraud indictment against Steven Kurtz, a University at Buffalo professor, was ''insufficient on its face.''

    Kurtz is a founding member of the Critical Art Ensemble, which has used human DNA and other biological materials in works intended to draw attention to political and social issues. His arrest drew protests from artists in several countries who called the charges an intrusion on artistic freedom.

    NYT

    In case no one here noticed, there was a raid (none / 0) (#18)
    by 1980Ford on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:38:37 PM EST
    A BIG ONE in Texas.

    Still don't know what to make... (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:55:27 PM EST
    of that whole mess.

    Children have rights, including the right not to be physically or sexually abused.  OTOH, ripping 400 families apart in response to one claim of abuse is rather scary.

    Don't know what to make of it...I sure do feel for the mothers, as creepily brainwashed as they seem.  Mercenaries ripping your kids away from you...I can't imagine what that must be like.

    Parent

    Expecially since the initial call was bogus (none / 0) (#39)
    by 1980Ford on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:05:36 PM EST
    And so far there is no certain evidence any of the mothers were underage. There is evidence at least some of the mothers thought to be underage were actually of age. It's a strange cult but a lot of people think it's strange to worship an imaginary man in the sky.

    Parent
    Good Thing This Time (none / 0) (#48)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:16:20 PM EST
    According to Sara Robinson, who has written much about this sort of thing at Orincus, the raid was a good thing and long overdue. She makes a very good argument that Warren Jeffs , the FCLDS prophet, is a psyco cult leader, and was on the verge of a violent confrontation at the expense of his 'flock', because it was all about him.

    One of the trickiest parts of dealing with the extremist right is figuring out whether a given group is just harmless garden-variety crazy -- or harboring the special kind of insanity that will lead to acts of local violence or outright domestic terror.

    it's a question worth asking in the wake of the state of Texas' intervention in the Eldorado colony of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-Day Saints. As the country is thrust into a fresh debate over individual religious freedom versus our collective interest in protecting people's civil rights, we're struggling once again with the deeper question: When should we leave people alone? And when does the state have a public duty to intervene?

    As it turns out, enlightened governments have been pondering this same question for the past two decades. In the post-mortems on Waco and Ruby Ridge and the Aum Shinrikyo attacks in Tokyo; in preparations made a decade ago for possible millennialist terror; and especially in sussing out which Islamic radical groups are dangerous and which are likely benign; government agencies throughout North America and Europe have been forced to think clearly about what constitutes a real threat, what's just a bogeyman, and how to respond to both. Over time, they've worked out a solid consensus on what the danger signs look like when a religious or political group's passions are beginning to spin toward violence, and worked up policy documents to help them move more wisely in the future.  

    Sara Robinson

    Parent

    Can you imagine warrants based on books? (none / 0) (#64)
    by 1980Ford on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:25:00 PM EST
    How would that fly?

    Parent
    Did You Read (none / 0) (#69)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:30:41 PM EST
    Sara's piece?  I am all for freedom and have a very strong dislike for the police messing with our constitutional rights, but after reading Sara's piece on the group, I am not so sure that intervention was a bad idea.

    The whole thing is troubling to me, I have to admit, both sides of the story.

    Parent

    Well, what is the issue then? (none / 0) (#93)
    by 1980Ford on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:14:32 PM EST
    No one can ague with addressing specific crimes of abuse, but this is more shotgun, and Sara often speaks of years past. If she can point to a specific  crime done by anyone specifically at this compound, fine. But accusing "them" or "they" of crimes is just too broad. And CPS could have looked for specific crimes and charged them rather than remove everyone. The irony is that contraception or abortions would be more acceptable if there were no allegations of the husbands being old. Then there may be privacy rights, but the right to be "barefoot and pregnant" though of age is wrong. Why? I think differences of opinion on the issue may depend on trust of the media reports. I doubted them and evidently they should not have been trusted.

    Parent
    Religion (none / 0) (#108)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 05:08:09 PM EST
    Is the issue. I think I am going to start my own. It is hard to believe that on one hand it is a stain for life if an adult has sex with a 14 year old, but it was OK in Texas with parental consent. Looks like that FCLDS moved to Texas to take advantage of that law, and like it was in Utah, a lawmaker changed it so that you could only marry a 16 year old, just to thwart the church.

    Stiff felony punishments were added where there were none before. Is it just a coincidence that these particular legislative tweaks to the law occurred soon after the arrival of the FLDS in Texas? Reminds me of some Jim Crow-era laws passed by various Southern legislatures. While the laws had the look of general applicability, they were designed to target a specific group.

    link

    You seem to be correct that the police have screwed up in their warrant. This f'up may allow those who actually abused the children to go free. It is tragic to see so many children wrenched out of their homes, but it is also tragic to read about the sect and how they operate with the seeming complicity of women and children who are treated as slaves.


    Parent

    I can't imagine... (none / 0) (#51)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:17:05 PM EST
    ...what it would be like for a young boy to ripped from your family and turned out to the streets because you are a threat to the male "elders".

    It is indeed a strange world we live in.

    Parent

    There is no evidence of them doing that (none / 0) (#63)
    by 1980Ford on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:24:11 PM EST
    Not in Texas at this compound.

    Parent
    So... (none / 0) (#71)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:31:43 PM EST
    ...just because it hasn't been proven that it happened in Texas, the problem doesn't exist?  

    Those 400 or so "lost boys" are just myths?  

    Parent

    Who said it didn't exist? (none / 0) (#79)
    by 1980Ford on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:50:07 PM EST
    It evidently doesn't exist there, which is where the raid was.

    Parent
    I never implied that it did... (none / 0) (#90)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:10:38 PM EST
    ...or didn't happen in Texas.  It is a fairly common practice amoung these sects.  Where it happens is really neither here nor there, so to speak.  


    Parent
    I noticed (none / 0) (#40)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:05:40 PM EST
    the Sect has hired a great criminal defense lawyer as lead counsel.

    Parent
    Thanks for the link! (none / 0) (#45)
    by 1980Ford on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:10:58 PM EST
    And for posting there. It's good to know they have competent representation. This could go all the way to the SCOTUS.

    Parent
    Where are the Supers? (none / 0) (#20)
    by sweetthings on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41:10 PM EST
    Hillary's just managed what is likely to be her biggest win of the remaining primaries. (full disclosure: I know nothing about PR. Maybe that will be a Hillary blow-out.) She was massively outspent, and still pulled of a double-digit win. Her press is about as good as it's going to get, and Obama is still reeling from the last debate. She's got a massive shot of momentum...it seems like now is the time for Hillary-minded Supers to get on board, maybe even jump from Obama. The ball is rolling, now is the time to give it speed.

    But according to myDD, Obama has picked up 4 Supers since PA, while Hillary has managed only 1. What are they waiting for? North Carolina? Indiana? The convention? What gives?

    I think (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by cmugirl on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:56:45 PM EST
    that many supers are waiting until this thing plays out (don't want to align yourself with a falling star, so to speak).

    The supers that are coming out now were on board all along, and the Obama camp knew he was having a rough time, so they waited for his loss in PA to roll them out - "PA?  What?  Old news - we've got these supers over here"

    I also read somewhere that the entire NC delegation was going to endorse him, so watch him trot them out soon.

    Parent

    Maybe her 9.2% win is not (1.00 / 0) (#60)
    by lilybart on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:23:32 PM EST
    that impressive?

    Parent
    Silly. It's impressive. It's just not (none / 0) (#68)
    by Cream City on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:28:38 PM EST
    enough.  

    Parent
    TeamO sets new metric: must beat 10+ for true win (none / 0) (#98)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:48:09 PM EST
    • HRC's 'enh' (to them) PA win of 10pts -- in a strong area for him -- must be exceeded by TeamObama now for him to "seriously" win in a stronghold. Yes, media have been coddling him, but their "Are We There Yet" whine is taking over and he must explain why he can't close.

    • Indiana is a tie-breaker

    • "his" delegates must all be on the record by now and/or he must explain why his silent ones remain so.
    :: cue soap opera music ::
    Are they more silent but deadly, or silent yet diddly?

    • if he hasn't / can't close, he needs to show the work/math he's been using to claim insurmountability to date (cause lord knows the bobbleheads don't know why he hasn't dropped the balloons)

    • what was that about MI again?


    Parent
    I thought someone wrote (none / 0) (#24)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:45:52 PM EST
    That BHO will get 20 new ones and that they will mete them out at about 2 a day. Less impressive doing it that way, of course. But it gives time for time outs.

    Parent
    He's picked up 20 Supers... (none / 0) (#30)
    by sweetthings on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:50:05 PM EST
    In the last few days?

    Jeebus. What does Hillary have to do to lure Supers to her side? 200,000 votes aren't enough?

    Parent

    Yeah, but there were not announcing them at once (none / 0) (#44)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:07:51 PM EST
    That is the 2 a day thing. Oh surprise, 2 more, 2 more. Oh wow, 2 more.

    Parent
    But only one was rolled out yesterday (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Cream City on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:27:41 PM EST
    on a day that Obama really needed more to counteract the Pennsylvania win for Clinton.

    So I think that this rumor will be about as true as the one that said he was going to have 50 super-d's declare the day after Ohio and Texas primaries.  Uh huh.  And he hasn't gotten a total of 50 since then.

    So, yes, I've read several stories with interviews with undeclared super-d's, and they're doing the wait-and-see.  And wisely so, with this season.

    Parent

    Awesome like the Obama brag of a Gore/Carter nod (none / 0) (#95)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:19:15 PM EST
    Cause the Obama campaign is all about truthiness in advertising and the New Politics of Change, Hope, Um, Spare Change and Heapin' Helping of Hype!

    Oh yes he is! (Oh no he didennn't)

    Parent

    I suspect (none / 0) (#54)
    by Foxx on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:18:24 PM EST
    Most of the remaining ones are leaning Obama. Not a happy thought. And not that I understand it.

    Parent
    DNC My recommendations (none / 0) (#23)
    by Saul on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:45:30 PM EST
    The DNC should seriously consider the following changes for future presidential nominations.

    Get rid of all super delegates

    Get rid of all caucuses voting formats

    Have only primaries as the only format

    Have only registered democrats vote in each state primary

    Have all the states vote on one single day.  I suggest the second Tuesday of May
    A super super Tuesday

    Have from May 1st to the date of the primary election date for all voters to vote early or absentee to include mail in ballots for any voter who would not be able to physically get to a voting precinct.

    All candidates would have from November of the previous year to May 15 to do all their campaigning.  That is 6 months of campaigning or 26.5 weeks.  They can pick where they want to campaign.

    Then it's completely over.  You then would probably have until June the 1st to get a complete and certified count of all the delegate count and the popular vote.  

    If no one candidates reaches the required delegate number then the winner will be chosen by who ever has the most popular vote count.  

    I know that may of these changes can only be done by each state but there should be a united effort to get every state that is not in the primary format to change to that format only and to agree to the other changes listed.



    (Comment Deleted) (none / 0) (#28)
    by tigercourse on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:48:23 PM EST

    This comment has been deleted by Jeralyn



    There are 3 ways... (none / 0) (#46)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:11:28 PM EST
    ...that a person who deals with pain and/or torture over a long period deals with their ordeal.

    The first is beaten down and submissive.  The second is grateful to be able to live another day.  The third is angry, bitter and wanting someone, anyone, to pay for what happened to them.

    J. Sydney McSame III is the later.  

    And that is what makes him dangerous.  

    Parent

    it was deleted for having (none / 0) (#107)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:34:24 PM EST
    an overly long url that skewed the site.

    Parent
    The way to end this stalemate (none / 0) (#49)
    by Lena on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:16:26 PM EST
    of a primary season is for HRC to make inroads into the black vote in North Carolina. She needs to prove that she can pick up the black vote, while Obama can't pick up the white blue-collar vote.

    One way for her to do this is to take up the racist themes of those GOP commercials airing in North Carolina, and to advocate FOR Obama (thus providing an opening for potential Obama voters to come to her side). But she needs to avoid the (likely) possibility of Obama surrogates saying that by advocating for him, she is ceding the contest to him. Instead, she needs to use those GOP ads as a springboard to discuss discrimination, and add that as the next President, she will work against all forms of discrimination, including racism.

    This (none / 0) (#99)
    by nell on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:48:53 PM EST
    is just not going to happen. Sorry. PA was an interesting experience because I had the opportunity to speak to many in the African American community who made it clear that they are NOT anti-Clinton, but they are pro-Obama. They see him as someone who has a real shot, and the community is incredibly proud of him and of their chance to break the glass ceiling, just as women are so proud of Clinton. It would also be unrealistic to expect Obama to make huge inroads with white women, though they have voted for Clinton 2:1, not 9:1. The blue collar male vote is significant because neither fits that mold.

    Parent
    can you believe (none / 0) (#57)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:19:58 PM EST
    that in this age of the cell phone video there is NO video of this.
    I feel so cheated.

    Link

    Thomas Friedman Gets A Pie In The Face During Speech At Brown

    Video: there is one now-- (none / 0) (#72)
    by Molly Pitcher on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:32:19 PM EST
    go to your link again.

    Parent
    aw-aw-aw-awsum (none / 0) (#73)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:36:15 PM EST
    thanks for pointing it out

    Parent
    Ugh, this is not self-mortification (none / 0) (#67)
    by Molly Pitcher on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:28:32 PM EST
    day on my calendar.  I will not listen to his drivel.

    SUSA Whose on better on TOP Clinton 48% (none / 0) (#75)
    by Salt on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:38:40 PM EST
    If Clinton and Obama do eventually join together and run as a one ticket, which would you rather see? Clinton for President with Obama as vice president? Or Obama for President with Clinton as Vice President?

    Obama 40%
    Not Sure 12%

    4-22

    Is this... (none / 0) (#78)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:46:16 PM EST
    'On September 18, 2006, Pastor John Hagee - whose endorsement Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) said this past Sunday he was "glad to have" - told NPR's Terry Gross that "Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans." "New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God," Hagee said, because "there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came."'

    ...worse, better or about the same as what Wright said?

    you point out why Wright is an issue (none / 0) (#82)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:52:10 PM EST
    and Hagee will not really be one.  he insults homosexuals.  
    I hate to break it to you but the majority of middle america, while they might not actually say this, are not really inclined to get all that agitated about it either.  trust me.  Im gay.  I know this from first hand experience.
    they may even say they dont like it.  but they are not going to vote against McCain because of it.


    Parent
    Easy there mate... (none / 0) (#86)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:01:30 PM EST
    ...I was simply asking a question.

    You're not breaking anything to me that I didn't already know.  Lighten up a bit.

    I will however disagree in that it certainly might push a progressive leaning person who is on the fence to reconsider their thought of voting for McSame.

    Parent

    I hope you are right (none / 0) (#87)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:03:41 PM EST
    I really do

    Parent
    Sad To Say Too Many So Called Progressives (none / 0) (#91)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:11:51 PM EST
    didn't get put off by Obama having McClurkin campaign for him or him refusing to have his picture taken with Gavin Newsom. As you well know, even A-list gay bloggers have decided it was no big deal.

    Oh well, I guess the Dem party doesn't need to stand for gay rights or choice, protecting Social Security or protecting the constitution as long as we stand for hope and change.  

    Parent

    Hagee = Meeks, MileHi (none / 0) (#100)
    by lookoverthere on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:56:39 PM EST
    "We don't have slave masters, we got mayors," exclaimed James Meeks, an Illinois state senator and pastor of one of the largest churches in the state, in an August, 2006 sermon broadcast on a Chicago community television channel.

    James Meeks, a supporter of Sen. Obama and a superdelegate, runs a megachurch in Chicago. And I'm hoping there isn't video of this, but I bet there is:

    "...if I don't have every white Christian vote in the state of Illinois, I will stand on top of the Sears Tower and call every one of y'all racist," Meeks said from his pulpit.

    The 527 just creates itself---I could do it in half an hour.

    Anyway, State Sen. Meeks is a homphobic bigot. He and Hagee could be BFFs.

    Meeks has routinely voted against pro-homosexual legislation and has been quoted during sermons referring to same-sex attraction "an evil sickness."

    One of the reasons I remain skeptical of Sen. Obama's unity message is that I can't really find myself unifiying with a gentleman like State Sen. Meeks. I'm working on it, but I can't quite get there. I can udnerstand with a political difference regarding my civil rights (don't agree, but tactically, I can see it); but State Sen. Meeks has...issues.

    I'll leave it at that.

    Parent

    So... (none / 0) (#102)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 03:04:39 PM EST
    ...I guess what it boils down to is that we have idiots, bigots and homophobes on both sides of the aisle.  

    Not exactly comforting.  I doubt we'll ever get past these things in this country.  At least not in my lifetime.

    Parent

    I find the term "rethug" (none / 0) (#85)
    by dem08 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:57:43 PM EST
    repellent. Is it possible to get people to stop using it?

    Popular and delegate counts at MyDD (none / 0) (#101)
    by Oje on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 03:02:25 PM EST
    Jerome Armstrong provides the proper narrative about the popular vote and delegate count here. Clinton leads popular votes by ~12,000 and is behind only 9 delegates at this time. The Obama-managed narrative does not have any bearing on the current popular vote and delegate allotments.  

    This is not "Clinton's new math" as TPM would have it. It is the actual vote and delegate totals until the Democratic convention credentials committee rules otherwise. At this time no delegates have been credentialed, however every delegate assigned by state primaries and caucuses will show and seek credentials at the national committee. Only then can Obama and his delegates deny 2 states equality before the law and their voting rights.

    Posted a link (none / 0) (#104)
    by RalphB on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 03:42:15 PM EST
    to Jerome's analysis in another post here earlier.  Good to see something done straight up for a change.  This race is tight as can be, and the math can be spun anyway.  Obviously, we don't have a winner yet :-)


    Parent
    From: Is Barack Obama the Messiah? (none / 0) (#105)
    by waldenpond on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 03:54:54 PM EST
    Hadn't been there in a long time....

    [Barack's appeal is actually messianic, it's something about his aura, his spirit, his soul, that exudes enlightenment in the making......
    he is one of those individuals who communicates God-like energy (metaphorically speaking), in whom you can "feel" God........I'm taking a special look at Barack Obama because he's a lot closer to a Jesus-type than the other candidates, by quite a bit. What if God decided to incarnate as men preaching "hope and change." And what if we didn't recognize them, because we are so dull, and let them slip away, not availing ourselves of the opportunity to be led by God!]
    Steve Davis, Charleston, SC March 31, 2008.

    cough, cough, gasp, gack... ugh

    Come on! What is the matter with people?!


    We could all learn a lesson.... (none / 0) (#106)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 03:58:23 PM EST
    from this amazing woman

    The government cannot and will not solve our problems...it's up to us.  And if we all put in a sliver of the effort that this fine woman has to solve a problem, we'd be in a lot better shape.

    Yes (none / 0) (#109)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 05:17:15 PM EST
    She sounds like a saint.

    I have a friend who had the same complaint, too much insurance paperwork was reducing the time she could spend with patients, big time. Her solution was to go back to London where the NHS is not nearly as out of wack. She is now treating prisoners, still a job but at least she is spending the bulk of her working day doing what she is trained to do and serving those in need, and not those in greed.
     

    Parent

    We Do Not Consent (none / 0) (#110)
    by Lora on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 07:48:54 PM EST
    Secret counting of votes: We Do Not Consent, by Bev Harris, founder of Black Box Voting.

    The candidate from Abercrombie & Fitch (none / 0) (#111)
    by herb the verb on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:07:47 PM EST
    Were my wife and I the only ones who noticed that all three of the 20-something white guys standing behind Obama during his concession speech were wearing Abercrombie & Fitch t-shirts?

    Check it out on youtube....!

    You're a lot better looking than Kleinman! n/t (none / 0) (#112)
    by halstoon on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 12:25:46 AM EST