Dean's Fumbles On The Popular Vote and MI/FL

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:27:17 PM EST
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By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

I watched Howard Dean's appearance on CBS's Face The Nation. He did a fine job I thought. Then I saw his appearance on ABC's This Week. He blew it there.

First and foremost, Dean decided to comment on the importance of the popular votes. After saying "we must listen to the voters," Howard Dean then decided to mash up this point by dismissing the importance of the popular vote. Interestingly, I do not think Dean meant to do that. I think he meant to say this is a delegate race (and Dean NEVER treated the pledged delegate count as particularly meaningful). Dean wants the delegates to decide, as they will. But the Super Delegates can, should, and I believe, WILL look at the popular vote as an important, maybe even decisive, factor. I do not think Howard Dean has any objection to that. More . . .

Dean also fumbled the FL/MI issue. He is certainly in a tough spot. He spoke very favorably for revotes in FL/MI previous to Obama's blocking them. At this point, Dean must remain neutral on the revote issue. But his discussion of the FL/MI issue was extremely poor and frankly, inaccurate. I do not know what happened to him on ABC, but it was not consistent with his appearance on Face the Nation.

< Oct 2007: Clinton Camp On MI | Sunday Afternoon Open Thread >

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Dean's Fumbles On The Popular Vote and MI/FL | 22 comments (22 topical)

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On MTP.. (5.00 / 1) (#4)
by ajain on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:51:50 PM EST

Rendell seemed to challenge Casey on the popular vote test.

I think the Clinton camp is going to increasingly make a challenge to accept the will of the people in all 50 states as the ultimate veto.

I think it would particular great for Clinton to challenge him to rise up to the popular vote (of all 50 states) test in the upcoming debate. That would be game changing argument and there is no way to get around that for Obama considering "the-will-of-the-people" argument he and his campaign is making.

Dean the un-Democrat (5.00 / 3) (#6)
by reality based on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:06:33 PM EST

Dean engaged in some inside politics talk that indicates he will try to short circuit the Michigan and Florida popular vote question. I think he believes he can get Hillary to back down on a convention challenge if he can persuade the superdelegates to announce their choice before the convention and thinks that will solve his problem. No way for a democrat (small "d") to talk. The democracy cat is out of the bag in my opinion. There are a lot of us who come to Hillary only by a process of elimination and for whom the democracy issue is a deal killer especially given Florida 2000. I have been outraged since then and have hungered for a leader, like Andrew Jackson after the 1824 "corrupt bargain" that made JQ Adams President, who will make government by the people and for the people a central issue. A bad performance by Dean. Did he handle it better on CBS or did Shieffer & Co. just not bring up the subject?

: Be careful here- (none / 0) (#17)
by kenosharick on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:53:40 PM EST

While I agree with most of what you say, there is no proof of a "corrupt bargain." Clay never would have supported Jackson, they were bitter enemies. Crawford was ill and Clay was actually a natural fit with Adams. Maybe/maybe not.

"This Week" (5.00 / 0) (#14)
by notime4lies on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:07:09 PM EST

Since we're talking about today's show on "This Week with George Stephanopoulos," anyone notice how Jim Webb spank Nancy Pelosi's previous inane blather about superdelegates.

When shown the clip of Pelosi claiming that superdelegates must follow the will of voters, whatever that means since Michigan and Florida are slated to not be counted, Webb told Stephanopoulos that since Democratic party leaders set the rules to allow superdelegates to use their own best judgment, Webb planned to vote for the person that in his judgment would make the best president. This almost sounded like a Hillary supporter talking point.

I missed Face the Nation (none / 0) (#1)
by lepidus on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:32:59 PM EST

But saw him on This Week, where I was disappointed. What did he say on Face the Nation?

Good things (none / 0) (#2)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:36:45 PM EST

Nothing on the popular vote or bad/inaccurate about FL/MI. It is bizarre that he had such a performance on ABC.


: BTD, putting this in the context of 2000 (5.00 / 0) (#21)
by Cream City on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 07:32:05 PM EST

I looked up the calendar on that year and this one and can see why the campaign has gone on too long for Dean. He didn't drop out then until March 25 -- and it looks like that was just about the time this year when he decided the campaign ought to be done, too.
That calendar must be all he knows. Maybe he was not very active in the 1992 campaign, the last time a Dem won -- when the campaign went well into June. But that's beyond Dean's and others' attention span now. It's not the D party, it's the ADHD party. . . .

Was Face the Nation taped first? (none / 0) (#3)
by bjorn on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:45:41 PM EST

maybe someone told him he needed to say some in particular on ABC because he missed the opportunity on Face the Nation?

Sorry BTD. (none / 0) (#5)
by Marguerite Quantaine on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:53:41 PM EST

Nothing Dean does right should ever temper the harm he's done this primary season.

And I don't think he's ever been neutral. He's always leaned towards whatever Obama wants, what ever Obama says, whatever Obama decides.

I predict, come what may, Dean, Brazile, and Pelosi are going to have to go if the DNC ever expects to get contributions from Democrats in Florida and Michigan again.

We will support individual candidates directly. But allow Dean to decide how to divvy up the money? No way.

: x (none / 0) (#12)
by CognitiveDissonance on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:00:37 PM EST

I have to agree, Marguerite. I don't think Dean has ever been neutral. It's pretty apparent that Pelosi and Brazile aren't neutral. Donna tips her hand more and more every day. Sometimes I wonder if she has some pathological hatred towards Florida, since it cost Gore the nomination and she was Gore's campaign manager. I have read that she is the reason that all of FL's delegates were axed, that the rest of the committee wanted the punishment to be the loss of half the delegates. I cannot see how anyone could have thought that could ever be a good move. And I do distinctly remember that all the supposed A List blogs were claiming that the punishment would not stick, that the delegates would be seated. That, of course, was before they all became Obama shills. (I don't include Talk Left in that at all).
What so infuriates me about Dean, though, is that his lack of leadership on this issue is making it pretty obvious that the Democratic Party is going to split, that we can't win the General if this happens, and we may not win the presidency again in a long time. That the Dem leadership can't seem to understand this is beyond belief.

ABC Show Time change (none / 0) (#8)
by Jazz Shaw on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:32:43 PM EST

I'm used to watching Stephanopolis (at least the second half depending who is on CBS) at 11:00 am Eastern. Today I flipped over and found some local housing infomercial and the online guide showed that it had aired at 9 a.m. Annoying. (I'm in Upstate New York... not sure if that was everywhere.) I had to catch it on the web afterward.

I am curious, however, where specifically you feel he fumbled things on the popular vote and Mi/Fl.? Right up front, I understand from following so many links to your posts that you are totally in the tank for Clinton. And that's fine... she's still a Democrat and I know many well intentioned people who are completely in the tank for Obama. Personally I just want to see the Dem candidate win in November. But how did Dean drop the ball there? There isn't going to be a revote in those two states, it seems, and obviously you can't seat the Mi delegates as previously taken when Obama wasn't on the ballot. The Fl thing is cloudy too, regardless of the spin. Sounds like he's trying to get a concensus based on parameters that the majority of people not totally in the "If my candidate doesn't win I'm voting for McCain" crowd would accept.

I've been waiting to see Dean step up and it finally looks like he is.

: BTD is an Obama supporter (5.00 / 0) (#15)
by litigatormom on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:14:59 PM EST

though he is willing to be critical of Obama where he thinks its appropriate, especially on the issue of FLA and MI.

Dean called McCain a Flip-Flopper! (none / 0) (#9)
by dazedreamer52 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:36:01 PM EST

I agree with what Howard Dean said about McCain on Face the Nation. McCain is WRONG on everything.
This link provides text and audio of Howard Dean's comments:
http://inewstube.com/content/view/102/64/

: He said that on This Week too (none / 0) (#16)
by litigatormom on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:16:23 PM EST

That part of the interview was fine.
It was the "we have to get the candidates to agree because we changing the ROOLz" part of the interview that I found very disappointing.

Lots of opinions - and few from Michigan (none / 0) (#10)
by Rayne on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:43:16 PM EST

Really, how many of the people here in thread are from Michigan?

Do you really know what happened, who it was that effed up the Michigan primary?

I see a lot of chatter here that claims Obama's campaign made a fundamental error about the Michigan primary.

Excuse me? Who exactly was it that promoted an early primary at all, that invoked the penalties the DNC -- a committee of representatives from every state including Michigan -- voted upon??

My vote as an Edwards supporter was jacked from the moment the proponents of the early primary went to work, and that's exactly what they had in mind all along. Any decision Obama's OR Edward's campaign made was after the fact.

I will never forgive the proponents of the early primary -- who overwhelming backed one candidate -- for denying me and the rest of my fellow Edwards' supporters our vote, let alone costing our state millions of dollars for a piece of crap useless primary, and the loss of revenues that would have come from campaigning. There is no making this right by us, ever. You might do well to ask yourselves if a candidate's supporters could do this to a state, in an attempt to earn favor and future appointments with that candidate's administration, exactly how else will they f*ck up our country?

: So, who are you blaming for this? (5.00 / 0) (#19)
by Anne on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:42:11 PM EST

And why is it a problem that people who do not live in Michigan have an opinion about it? Last time I checked, we have a national election coming up, in which we will all vote, and which we have an interest in winning, so I think that gives us a dog in this fight.
There have been bad decisions made all the way through this, but at all times, Howard Dean and the DNC had the power - and still have that power - to impose a less harsh penalty, which would be in compliance with their own rules.
[As an OT aside, Obama did, in my opinion, make a fundamental error when he chose to take his name off the ballot, and to urge the other candidates to do so as well, and it is disturbing to many of us that he now wants special treatment and an unfair division of delegates in spite of it.]
Howard Dean, meanwhile, seems to want to dump this in the laps of the campaigns, where he knows it is DOA - which conveniently falls in line with the "seat them after we have a nominee" plan that he thinks will make it all better. It won't.
When I listen to him, it is not clear to me that he really gets what the problem is.
Unless and until someone finally makes a decision that is about the voters and not the candidates, this will haunt us in November, and for years to come on every single voters' rights issues that comes up.

: I'm from Michigan! (5.00 / 0) (#20)
by lansing quaker on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 06:38:37 PM EST

And maybe you remember me from MichLib, Rayne. ;)
I was upset with the MI-Dems over the Primary, but now I'm far more upset with the DNC, Obama, and Obama's surrogates to not only consistently claim that the State doesn't matter, but to "Blame your Democrats!"
I like Michigan Blue, and I like to keep Michigan's Blue servants like Granholm, Stabenow, the Dingells, Stupak, Levin... the milieu. And that means making Michigan Blue on the inside, and not just on an Electoral Map come November.
So I'm going to say we disagree on this subject. IGNORING Michigan entirely, rather than accept 50% of a bungled Primary, gets my blood going more than anything else.
And then the sudden "concern" over Michigan and our evil Clinton surrogates!
It just makes me want to walk away from the table. Some things are more important, like actual State policy, which no national blog has ever cared about regarding Michigan (or most states).

: This says it was Levin and Dingell (none / 0) (#22)
by Cream City on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 07:37:10 PM EST

and of course, Levin has far more seniority and weight to throw around. I'm searching but not finding whether he has declared as a super-delegate for Clinton?

publicus (none / 0) (#11)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:45:27 PM EST

Since you continue to defy your suspension, you are now suspended through WEDNESDAY. Meaning you can not comment again until THURSDAY.

: Who cares (1.00 / 0) (#23)
by Publicus on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 09:14:18 PM EST

This blog is in LaLa land, and you can't tolerate having to confront facts and logic.

"This Week" (none / 0) (#13)
by notime4lies on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:07:09 PM EST

: Yes, and wouldn't he make a (none / 0) (#18)
by allimom99 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:18:24 PM EST

fine VP? Or Sec'y of Defense?