home

Obama on Foreign Policy Experience

Barack Obama explained to a fundraising crowd in California this week why his VP nominee would not need extensive foreign policy experience. It's because he has it. Was he joking? No.

Not only that, here's how he described and differentiated his experience from Hillary's to conclude he's more experienced than Hillary or McCain:

"It's ironic because this is supposedly the place where experience is most needed to be Commander-in-Chief. Experience in Washington is not knowledge of the world. This I know. When Senator Clinton brags 'I've met leaders from eighty countries'--I know what those trips are like! I've been on them. You go from the airport to the embassy. There's a group of children who do native dance. You meet with the CIA station chief and the embassy and they give you a briefing. You go take a tour of a plant that [with] the assistance of USAID has started something. And then--you go."

"You do that in eighty countries--you don't know those eighty countries. So when I speak about having lived in Indonesia for four years, having family that is impoverished in small villages in Africa--knowing the leaders is not important--what I know is the people. . . ."

"I traveled to Pakistan when I was in college--I knew what Sunni and Shia was [sic] before I joined the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. . . ."

[More...]

Obama says he's passed the good judgment test while Hillary and McCain have not." The journalist-author of the linked article notes:

Secondly, even though I've researched and written on Hillary Clinton's trips abroad and consequently been critical of her claims, my estimation of her foreign travels is that they were sometimes quite a bit more than a dance, a briefing and a tour. What Barack Obama's remarks last night in San Francisco reveal, however, is his self-confidence--to the point of cockiness--right now. This is exactly the same demeanor on display last week in Pennsylvania.

Cockiness is an understatement. He lived in Indonesia from the ages of 6 to 10. He didn't visit Africa until he was an adult -- his first trip was in his late 20's, his second 14 years after that.

Does he really believe that being a child in a foreign country and having poor relatives in Africa makes one prepared to be Commander in Chief? Can he really think it compares to Hillary's years of service on the Armed Services Committee? If this is an indication of his "good judgment" I can't wait to see what his poor or mistaken judgment is like.

More on Obama's foreign policy decisions, from the Chicago Tribune:

After being sworn in as U.S. Senator, it took him 11 months to make a major speech on Iraq.

When did he first introduce legislation setting a timetable for troop withdrawal from Iraq? "In January 2007,shortly after announcing his presidential exploratory committee."

Obama the candidate for U.S. Senate spoke out forcefully against the Iraq war. For most of his tenure in Washington, though, Obama the U.S. senator has not been a moving force on Iraq.

He left it to others to lead public opinion. Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.) and Rep. John Murtha (D-Pa.) emerged as the strongest voices against the war. Those critics all spoke out before Obama gave his first major policy speech on the war -- 11 months after he took office.

Several advisers said that during that time Obama wrestled with how to proceed, concerned about the worsening news from Iraq and convinced the public's mood was turning against the war more rapidly than most members of Congress appreciated.

In keeping with the pattern of his political career, he moved cautiously. During the summer of 2005 he considered proposing a plan to partition Iraq. But he backed off the idea as advisers raised two key concerns: that the proposal was fraught with complexities and that he could be seen as overstepping his expertise.

Ultimately Obama delivered a more modest speech in November 2005, five days after Murtha's call for a troop withdrawal. In that address, he called for reductions in U.S. troop strength but not a timetable for withdrawal.

In a Senate debate the following June, Obama voted against an amendment proposed by Feingold and former presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) to set such a timetable.

Only after Obama announced his presidential exploratory committee did he introduce legislation this January that sets a date for withdrawal of U.S. combat troops. By then the high-profile, bipartisan Iraq Study Group also had endorsed a deadline for troops to leave.

Update: Comments at 200, thread now closed.

< 9/11 Commission Unaware Of Mukasey Reported Call | SUSA NC Poll : Obama By 10 >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    You know, (5.00 / 6) (#1)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:50:08 PM EST
    there simply are no words to describe his chutzpah.  Even I do not have the words, and that is a first!

    VP choice (5.00 / 7) (#29)
    by CHDmom on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:14:35 PM EST
    Here is my favorite part of the quote "Barack Obama took a question on what he's looking for in a running mate. "I would like somebody who knows about a bunch of stuff that I'm not as expert on," he said"

    Parent
    Sounds like Bush! (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by cmugirl on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:33:50 PM EST
    Really, (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by ghost2 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:26:27 PM EST
    and it scares me more and more every day.  

    Parent
    Did he really say that? (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by litigatormom on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:48:12 PM EST
    Sigh.

    Parent
    Austan Goolsbee is going to be his running mate (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by ajain on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:26:44 PM EST
    I don't get why this is so bad (none / 0) (#99)
    by kayla on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:18:32 PM EST
    The guy is obviously smart.  He was president of the Harvard Law Review for goodness sake.  I have this little theory about why Hillary comes off as so extremely wonkish and why Barack comes across as a simpleton sometimes.

    I think it's the way they've both adjusted socially over the years in order to make it into the big leagues.  Hillary's a woman and probably experienced some sexism and to avoid the Blond Bimbo perception she makes sure she's a walking power-point.  Sometimes I feel like she's overcompensating.  Not that that's a bad thing in a presidential election.  I certainly appreciate it and am impressed by it, but if the American people voted based on debate performances, she would be the nominee by now.

    Barack's black and has probably spent much of his life trying to rid himself of the angry/uppity black guy stereotype so he tries to come off as very down to earth and amicable.  In fact, I read an article that when he was younger he intimidated the hell out of prospective voters with his hyper-literacy, and learned to calm it down in order to connect to voters.

    I've also heard some pundits say that Hillary is very warm and laid back in private, and Barack can be very cerebral in private.

    Until Barack completely butchers a prepared speech, I'm not willing to compare him to Bush.

    Parent

    How generous! (5.00 / 6) (#109)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:35:56 PM EST
    In fact, I read an article that when he was younger he intimidated the hell out of prospective voters with his hyper-literacy, and learned to calm it down in order to connect to voters.

    He hides  his intelligence from us so that we are not intimidated!

    The Law Review position was an elected post.  Interesting dynamics going on vis-a-vis race relations going into that particular election; the first black professor to achieve tenure had resigned to protest the lack of fellow blacks on the faculty and over fifty students had filled the dean's office demanding more equality on campus.

    Right place, right time.

    Parent

    He made it on to the Harvard Law Review (5.00 / 0) (#149)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:32:45 PM EST
    in the first place....

    The Editor-in-Chief position, or President in the case of Harvard, usually goes to someone perceived as a leader, not the biggest egghead.....

    Nevertheless, Lawrence Tribe has said Obama is one of the two best students he has ever had....

    Parent

    And to this... (5.00 / 0) (#181)
    by Alec82 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:36:42 PM EST
    ...we shall almost certainly hear cries about Professor Tribe's misogyny, reverse racism, homophobia and (laughably) legal inexperience.  Because, after all, Senator Obama cannot be a wonk....that role is reserved for only one candidate in this metanarrative.

    Parent
    So.... (5.00 / 0) (#164)
    by Alec82 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:54:28 PM EST
    ...he was on law review because he is black, he won his senate seat because he is black, he has no achievements whatsoever just had everything handed to him because he is black, he has no talent he is just black, and he is winning the primary because (you guessed it) he is black.

     Ugh.  The subtle race "consciousness" that comes up whenever we're talking about Senator Obama's experience and intelligence is truly terrifying, particularly from "progressives" who see him, apparently, as a beneficiary of affirmative action with no qualifications of his own(right place, right time is code, me thinks).  

     

    Parent

    Yeah exactly (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by kayla on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:25:00 PM EST
    This is just as bad as the Obama camp trying to discredit Hillary's FP experience by saying she was just having tea parties or because she wasn't signing treaties.

    The guy is very smart.  I've yet to find anything that disputes that.  He's not as knowledgable as Hillary or as eloquent without preparation, but that doesn't spell 'not smart' to me.  Not at all.  

    Ineloquent and inexperienced? I'd agree with that.

    Parent

    He's not very smart (5.00 / 8) (#111)
    by seattlegonz on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:37:52 PM EST
    He was editor of the law review and he didn't publish a single article. After his tenure they had to make a rule that you couldn't be editor without publishing.

    He's a chameleon. He mimics really smart people so that it appears as though he himself is smart. I'm not saying he's dumb...he's just not brilliant by any means. Hillary is the one who is smart, smart, smart. Remember how nice it was to have a president Bill Clinton stand before the cameras and we didn't have to worry and fret about what he'd say? Well, Hillary is way smarter than Bill. She will be the most awesome president...even her detractors now, will be stunned.

    Parent

    disagree (5.00 / 2) (#153)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:34:55 PM EST
    I have to say I disagree with your last line.  A prepared speech is nice and all, but it usually has been written by others and always vetted by a cast of thousands.

    You can better measure someone's abilities and character by their off-the-cuff moments.  And this moment was very revealing.

    Parent

    Oh, I agree with you when it comes to (5.00 / 0) (#187)
    by kayla on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:57:06 PM EST
    prepared speeches versus off the cuff remarks.  I think my last line was misunderstood, or maybe I just wasn't clear.  I meant Bush screws up even speeches that have been written down for him.  Anyway, I still don't see how this comment is all that revealing.  The use of a one syllable word like "stuff" isn't testimony to how intelligent you are or aren't.  Sure, Hillary's much better with off the cuff comments, but that doesn't mean Barack is at George Bush's level of complete incoherence.  Bush is so... unintelligent that sometimes no one even knows what he's talking about.  I have yet to hear Barack make a statement that was nonsensical or utterly stupid.  He has never made a statement as of yet that should be ridiculed because of the sheer idiocy of it.

    I don't think Barack is as impressive as he wants to be perceived, but I just disagree that this comment is an example of how "not very smart" he is.

    Parent

    odd but when Bush was running for (none / 0) (#191)
    by RalphB on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:06:05 PM EST
    Governor, he could actually make a pretty decent speech.  no errors in pronunciation.  something either went wrong with the guy, or he had practiced for decades before his first campaign.   :-)


    Parent
    I definitely agree with you on this. (none / 0) (#211)
    by eleanora on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 11:47:50 PM EST
    IMO, he's got a first class intellect and a much better grasp on history than Bush ever thought of. From his books and speeches, Senator Obama obviously loves examining topics in depth, applying old theories in new ways, and  acknowledging alternate worldviews while inching people closer together for consensus.

    To me, his hesitations and stutter talking in debates are a result of his trying to think each question through from the questioner's perspective and tailoring his response accordingly. I can see where that would be massively useful in consensus-building situations, but is perhaps less appropriate for debates. Not my candidate, but I don't find him lacking intellectually at all.

    Parent

    You mean, like grammar? (none / 0) (#163)
    by Susie from Philly on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:53:11 PM EST
    How about the audacity of proper sentence construction?

    Parent
    And I wondered why (5.00 / 6) (#118)
    by BernieO on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:52:02 PM EST
    he didn't have any meetings of the foreign relations subcommittee on Europe/NATO that he chairs. He already knew everything!
    Just what we need. Another guy who is a legend in his own mind.

    Parent
    this guy I fear will be a total disgrace if (5.00 / 6) (#2)
    by athyrio on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:50:11 PM EST
    he wins the presidency...scares me to death...he seems just so wishy-washy....

    Found some more words (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:05:15 PM EST
    (surprise!):  This speech was disgraceful.  Sounds like a teenager wrote it; certainly not an adult.  I am beginning to think that voting for a dem just because he is a dem would be a real bad move.  It may be time to vote for qualifications, not party. (That's an if, of course.

    Parent
    I Swear... (5.00 / 8) (#38)
    by AmyinSC on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:19:43 PM EST
    He just reminds me SO much of Bush in 2000...And the MSM is treating him the same way they did Bush.  

    Can you just IMAGINE the hew and cry if HILLARY had said that??  Ohmygosh - the talking heads would be laughing themselves silly!!!

    Parent

    My take (5.00 / 9) (#3)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:50:21 PM EST
     Once again this is the arrogance of sexism.  What he is saying is that a male child's experience is more valued as an adult woman's experience.  I frankly find it extremely offensive.

     All the ceremonial aspects are part of foreign relations experience.  The nation's hosting the President and his wife are keen on showing hospitality and friendship to the President and the first Lady.

    Obama as Performance Artist (5.00 / 12) (#7)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:56:51 PM EST
    It bears repeating Steinem's point that no female with as little to offer as Obama would get near a Presidential race in either party.

    A male candidate can attempt to recreate the great men of the past - MLK, JFK, etc. - and many will fall for it.  Theater alone will suffice, as we see with Obama as performance artist.  A woman candidate has no comparable legacy to draw on - and her actual record, to paraphrase feminist slogans, has to be twice as long to be considered half as good.

    Parent

    Side by side videos (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:59:02 PM EST
    I would like to find side by side videos of todays hearings.  Hillary just knew her military stuff, did not campaign, did her role as Senator.  The boyz were campaigning.  

    Parent
    That's exactly how (5.00 / 4) (#95)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:14:56 PM EST
    it struck me!  I didn't listen to McCain closely because he's so predictable.  But I did listen to Hillary and Barack, and I was amazed to hear him giving what amounted to a campaign speech.  He did ask a reasonably good rhetorical question at the end, but geez.  I thought Hillary was succinct, no grandstanding, no campaign speech, just to the point.

    Norah O'Donnell on MNBC said her impact in the room was substantial, though it was less so through the television.

    Parent

    Please don't insult performance artists. (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by ahazydelirium on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:28:11 PM EST
    They usually have more substance than Obama does.

    Parent
    Big tips... (none / 0) (#208)
    by lansing quaker on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 11:25:32 PM EST
    For both you, Athena, and Stellaaa!  I may have missed an A or two there. ;)

    Right on the mark.  Great comments.

    Parent

    Had to delurk just to second this. (none / 0) (#165)
    by TA on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:55:06 PM EST
    It really IS offensive and sexist, isn't it?  

    I've read a lot about this, and you're the first one I've seen to point that out.  Thank you.

    Parent

    Wait, sexist or not sexist enough? (none / 0) (#177)
    by marcellus on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:24:20 PM EST
    The author at Huffington Post has the exact opposite accusation, that Obama is not sexist enough...  apparently because he's considering VP candidates without gender bias.

    Note Obama's delicate sentence constructions. Never a gender pronoun--a he or a she--anywhere.

    I'm not sure which one people believe?  (Probably neither, just random internet chatter, and I shouldn't let my head explode.)

    The criticism of Hillary Clinton's foreign policy experience starts from her own accounts in her book.  I've read Living History, and foreign policy and understanding of cultures is definitely not a strong suit.  In addition she has a fundamental misunderstanding of poverty, in which she blames poor people for being there because they don't work hard enough.  She says that her father taught her this, she rebelled against it at the time, and in my opinion, her actions now live up to it.  It doesn't matter if she had a ghostwriter, by putting her name on the book, she's signing on that these are her attitudes.  

    As first lady, she didn't have security clearance , and most claims of exaggerations are from (potentially disgruntled?) former staff members such as Susan Rice and George Stephanopoulos.  It's damning him with faint praise...but George S. is the TV talking head that I trust the most, so it's telling to me when he says things like there are not that many 3 am calls in the White House.  

    After Hillary had claimed the mantle of crossing the commander-in-chief threshold, she was asked to name the reasons.  She chose N.Ireland (a claim supported by one side and disputed by the other), Bosnia (a fabricated story in which she demonstrated her complete arrogance--I took her stuff and left), and China (a speech, an accomplishment I consider impressive, but Hillary herself denigrates as "just words")

    Parent

    Almost Satire (5.00 / 10) (#4)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:52:40 PM EST
    Obama's foreign cred is just not credible.  Living overseas as a child and touring through Pakistan as a college student is not at all comparable with Clinton's record.  It's almost satire.

    That doesn't mean it won't dazzle the dazzled, of course.

    It makes me wonder even more why he blew off his comittee chairmanship when his foreign policy resume is so thin.  But that's the arrogance - actual work not required.

    The Speech Is Old (5.00 / 6) (#98)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:16:35 PM EST
    Folks - Obama's most significant claim regarding his cred on the Iraq war is his 2002 speech.

    Don't you think that it would be more impressive if he had worked like hell to end the war - and could point to all manner of initiatives in the Senate to get that done?  Uh, I guess the word I'm looking for is - action.

    He can't.  It's a little pathetic that a 6-year old speech is held up as the most important thing he's done - when he's had 3 years in the G.D. Senate!

    Why did he seem to matter more when he wasn't a Senator?   Hmmm, interesting.  A real leadership vacuum emerges here.

    Parent

    Testified? (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:55:09 PM EST
    No, asked questions.  

    Comments and Questions (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by 1jane on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:59:21 PM EST
    may have been a better lede.

    Parent
    PAALEEEEASE! (5.00 / 7) (#8)
    by countme on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:57:18 PM EST
    This is getting to be to much. Isn't there anyone out there in the MSM that will even poke a little fun at his comments. I mean really. Even taffy breaks when stretched to far.

    SNL, Get Busy (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:02:08 PM EST
    Seeing the world through the eyes of a child - passed off as gravitas - well, that's just an SNL skit waiting to happen.

    Calling Tina Fey.........

    Parent

    In my experience (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Lahdee on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:59:05 PM EST
    "the good judgment test" constitutes more than just one test. He keeps this up and the corporate media will eat him alive.

    Yes such as (4.80 / 5) (#122)
    by BernieO on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:56:16 PM EST
    having the good judgment not to ask a man under federal investigation for corruption to help you buy a mansion you cannot afford. Or having the judgment not to try to buy a house you cannot afford. Or having the good judgment not to stay in a church with a minister who is a conspiracy theorist and a bigot.

    Parent
    Next thing he'll be saying that (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by myiq2xu on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:00:05 PM EST
    Hillary was just the White House "hostess."

    Obama really overstepped this time.

    And I'm pretty sure he hasn't been on (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by allimom99 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:44:57 PM EST
    "those trips." He's a first-term senator who was too busy running for president to actually do the committee job he was given.

    Parent
    Bosnia vs. Indonesia (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:02:01 PM EST
    Now, lets get some things figured out.  She was in Bosnia.  It was a war zone.  He claims his experience that as a child he lived in Indonesia.  Is that a lie? Exaggeration?  Mispeak?  or just plain idiocy?

    one wonders... (5.00 / 3) (#168)
    by Nasarius on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:03:48 PM EST
    Why none of his advisers have smacked him down on this. It's hardly the first time he's touted his "experience" of going to grade school in Indonesia.

    It's great to be well-traveled and live in other cultures. It absolutely broadens your perspective on the world. But it says absolutely nothing about your ability to be a world leader. As much as I like them, I don't think I'd want, say, Rick Steves or Arthur Frommer in the White House.

    And it's even more astounding that he does this while downplaying Hillary's experience of actually meeting foreign leaders and talking policy. He just won't stop handing ammunition to the McCain campaign.

    Parent

    Too close to sippin' tea (5.00 / 6) (#16)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:02:10 PM EST
    I was reading through old news reports of some of her trips. If that's what he thinks she's doing on all of them, he certainly needs a clue.

    And how nice of him to brush of children's dances and think that knowing the leaders is unimportant . . .

    I would LOVE to see all those remarks he said backed up. Especially "what I know is the people" Back that one up buddy. Show us your diverse knowledge on people.

    I alternate between laughing and getting pissed when I read his remarks . . .

    I hung out with real people in Prague (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:02:49 PM EST
    Maybe Obama will consider me for a Cabinet position.

    What he said is a joke.

    I'm not supposed to call him a joke.  I won't.

    But what he said is a joke, a joke that he would be called on if he wasn't...........

    ..

    running against a Clinton.

    No.  THe man is not a joke.  BUt I suspect he might be a little incompetent.  The argument that he could be a worse president than McCain, the only reason against making it is that it's considered verboten to do so.

    So, I can assume (none / 0) (#166)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:56:03 PM EST
    you will vote for McCain over Obama?  You have convinced me that you really do not like Obama....I am persuaded of that....Heh, it's a free country...

    Really, there is only little more than six weeks before Puerto Rico and when this will be over.....

    Parent

    Does he think he's running (5.00 / 8) (#20)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:05:38 PM EST
    for high school student body president? rather than president of the US? This is just a joke, and goes to my first reason for not voting for him, which is:

    He will be incompetent, look foolish, and ensure Republican rule for at least another 12 years after his first and only term.

    Obama's supporters don't care (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by TheRefugee on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:29:49 PM EST
    They aren't laying groundwork for Obama victory in the GE they are laying groundwork for Obama's loss in the GE to be Hillary's fault for staying in the race and "scorching the earth."

    Hillary has a very good reason to stay in the race...Either she wins the nom and wins the GE or Obama wins the nom and loses the GE and Hillary will be back in four years saying, "now can we elect the best candidate instead of the palatable candidate?"

    But if Obama wins I agree with you, one term and done and poisons the well for future Dems.

    Parent

    You say Hillary should (none / 0) (#108)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:35:34 PM EST
    stay in because she can better prepare herself for 2012 that way--because Obama will lose if he is the nominee....

    And yet you imply it is wrong for Obama supporters to worry about Hillary damaging Obama in the GE.

    It is Hillary in 2008 or 2012.....Yes, that does concern me.

    Parent

    No one is damaging Obama (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by waldenpond on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:58:08 PM EST
    He has to make it on his own.  No one is doing anything to him.  By staying in, she is demonstrating she is willing to fight for something until the end, that she can take whatever is thrown at her and come back in 2012.

    Good strategy.  That's all.  Nothing whatsoever to do with Obama.

    Parent

    2012? (none / 0) (#145)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:24:46 PM EST
    It does sound as if Hillary has a 2012 strategy....

    Parent
    No, it sounds like waldenpond has (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by lookoverthere on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:35:27 PM EST
    a 2012 strategy.

    If you have evidence of Sen. Clinton making a run in 2012, show it please.

    Parent

    psssst.... (none / 0) (#206)
    by waldenpond on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 11:01:15 PM EST
    I was responding to your mention of 2012 btw.  I'm not privy to the Clinton campaign strategy.

    Parent
    The opportunity cost of not (none / 0) (#144)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:23:57 PM EST
    being able to focus on McCain now when McCain has no money....

    And, any Hillary attacks redound to McCain's benefit.

    Parent

    What is keeping him (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by oldpro on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:46:09 PM EST
    from focusing on McCain now?

    Not a damn thing.

    It can't be the money!

    Parent

    Yes, that would be HIS choice, (none / 0) (#199)
    by allimom99 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:47:16 PM EST
    And he's inevitable (none / 0) (#202)
    by badger on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:57:06 PM EST
    so there's really no reason for him to have to campaign against Clinton any longer.

    Parent
    Fact Sheet: Sen. Obama's Record on Iraq (5.00 / 14) (#21)
    by TalkRight on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:05:38 PM EST
    Fact Sheet: Sen. Obama's Record on Iraq

    3/17/2008 10:01:52 AM
    Obama on Iraq: Prior To Joining U.S. Senate

    While running for senate in 2003, Sen. Obama acknowledged that he took his anti-war speech off his campaign website, calling it 'dated.' Specifically, State Senator Obama maintains that an October 2002 anti-war speech was removed from his campaign web site because "the speech was dated once the formal phase of the war was over, and my staff's desire to continually provide fresh news clips." [Black Commentator, 6/19/03]

    Obama in July 2004: 'There's not much of a difference between my position and George Bush's position [on Iraq] at this stage.' In a meeting with Chicago Tribune reporters at the Democratic National Convention, Obama said, "On Iraq, on paper, there's not as much difference, I think, between the Bush administration and a Kerry administration as there would have been a year ago. [...] There's not much of a difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage. The difference, in my mind, is who's in a position to execute." [Chicago Tribune, 07/27/04]

    Obama on 2002 Iraq resolution vote: 'What would I have done? I don't know:' "When asked about Senators Kerry and Edwards' votes on the Iraq war, Obama said, "I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports," Mr. Obama said. "What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made." [New York Times, 07/26/04]

    In September 2004, Obama says he ' would be willing to send more soldiers to Iraq.' [AP, 9/19/04]
    Obama on Iraq: U.S. Senate Record

    11 months after joining Senate, Sen. Obama delivers first speech devoted to Iraq, says 'US forces are sill part of the solution.' "[T]he level of his criticism lowered when he arrived in Washington. In his first year in the Senate, he delivered one speech on Iraq, calling for a phased withdrawal by the end of 2006. But last November, Mr. Obama revised that time frame, saying the drawdown should begin in four to six months." Obama's Senate web site lists his address to the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations on November 22, 2005, 11 months after entering the U.S. Senate. Obama said, "I believe that U.S. forces are still a part of the solution in Iraq." [New York Times, 2/12/07; obama.senate.gov]

    18 months after joining Senate, Sen. Obama gives first floor statement devoted to Iraq, opposes timeline for withdrawal. "...But having visited Iraq, I am also acutely aware that a precipitous withdrawal of our troops, driven by congressional edict rather than the realities on the ground, will not undo the mistakes made by this administration. It could compound them." [obama.senate.gov]

    Upon arriving in the Senate, Sen. Obama supported every funding bill for Iraq, some $300 billion....until he started running for President. [2005 Vote # 117, HR1268, 5/10/05; 2005 Vote # 326, S1042, 11/15/05; 2006 Vote # 112, HR4939, 5/4/06; 2006 Vote # 239; 2006 Vote # 186, S2766, 6/22/06; HR5631, 9/7/06]

    As a Senate candidate in November 2003, Sen. Obama said he would have 'unequivocally' voted against war funding because it was the only way to oppose Bush on Iraq. "Just this week, when I was asked, would I have voted for the $87 billion dollars, I said 'no.' I said no unequivocally because, at a certain point, we have to say no to George Bush. If we keep on getting steamrolled, we are not going to stand a chance." [Obama remarks, New Trier Democratic Organization forum, 11/16/03; Video]

    Since Obama entered the U.S. Senate, his record on Iraq is identical to Hillary's, with one exception. ABC News reported that, "In fact, Obama's Senate voting record on Iraq is nearly identical to Clinton's.  Over the two years Obama has been in the Senate, the only Iraq-related vote on which they differed was the confirmation earlier this year of General George Casey to be Chief of Staff of the Army, which Obama voted for and Clinton voted against." [ABC, 5/17/07; senate.gov; see chart]

    Top Obama advisor says, as president, Sen. Obama will 'not rely upon some plan that he's crafted as a presidential candidate or as a US senator.' Samantha Powers, who has subsequently resigned her position, also described Sen. Obama's Iraq plan as a "best case scenario." [BBC, 3/6/07]


    This was the fairy tale (5.00 / 7) (#96)
    by abfabdem on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:16:03 PM EST
    Bill Clinton was referring to that kicked off the cries of racism.  Thanks for putting this timeline together.  What an opportunist this guy is.

    Parent
    That "opportunist" (none / 0) (#113)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:38:41 PM EST
    will likely be on the ticket as the nominee for President or VP....

    The Obama bashing is one reason that the superdelegates should decide this race ASAP.  Hillary has said the superdelegates can legitmately do whatever they want.  So, if they call this race tomorrow, then that would be legitimate...

    Parent

    And if they did that (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by cmugirl on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:42:33 PM EST
    it would also be legitimate when Obama got a shellacking in the fall because half the Democratic Party didn't vote for him.

    Parent
    Sunk costs (none / 0) (#161)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:49:31 PM EST
    It seems the idea is that the superdelegates should allow this race to go on in order to not offend Hillary supporters.....Fine...But:

    There is not enough time for re-votes in Florida or Michigan.  (There is little more than 6 weeks before the first week in June when the race will be over.)  That issue is done regardless of the merits....That issue is also a make or break issue for many Hillary supporters here....

    Hillary supporters here also have already stated that such a nomination will not be legitimate.....Many (not all and with notable exceptions) here have said they will not ever vote for Obama.  I believe them.

    Better to get on with it.....I have become convinced that any effort to persuade the Hillary supporters by dragging this race out is futile....They will not be persuaded or mollifed and will just use the additional time to bash Obama....

    I became completely convinced of this given the rude reception Meteor Blades has received here....It is simply time to close it down....and move on....Many here are simply not persuadable....Their votes appear lost to Obama anyway.

    Parent

    "dragging the race out" (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:57:42 PM EST
    Rules are rules.  The primary dates were set up, why do you call the brilliant work of the DNC rules committee and the scheduling of the primaries:  "dragging out".  These are the rules.  Rules are rules.  Rules are rules.  

    Parent
    Yes, they are (none / 0) (#190)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:04:55 PM EST
    Of course, the primaries will be held....

    It would be better imo that they become less significant, or not significant at all, with superdelegates having declared for Obama in advance.....

    Parent

    That is not what the rules say....!!! (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:23:40 PM EST
    minds gone bad (none / 0) (#207)
    by Arcadianwind on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 11:20:19 PM EST
    "It would be better imo that they become less significant, or not significant at all" --MKS

    Rove/bush couldn't have said it any better! Actual voters should become less significant, or not significant at all.

    Does this concept (in general) give anyone a sense of foreboding?

    What has happened to our party?

    Parent

    MKS (none / 0) (#192)
    by lookoverthere on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:11:48 PM EST
    have become convinced that any effort to persuade the Hillary supporters by dragging this race out is futile....They will not be persuaded or mollifed and will just use the additional time to bash Obama....

    Sen. Obama has not won the nomination. And if he can't stand the heat, then he should withdraw.

    So let's let the contest will continue. It will not hurt Sen. Obama. Quite the contrary---I think it makes him a better candidate. Besides, if there's going to be a meltdown by either potential nominee, I'd rather it be now and not in October. Let's see the ugly now because we're going to see it then---forewarned is fore-527ed, in my book.

    You can say all you want about Sen. Obama not being able to focus on Sen. McCain, but nothing is stopping him from doing so. That would be a smart thing for him to do---use these opportunties out on the stump to repackage himself and his message for the general election. He's got plenty of money.

    And if you really think Sen. Clinton's supporters are of no value to your candidate, I'd suggest otherwise. How Sen. Obama handles himself in the remaining contests may earn him the support of many Clinton supporters.

    BTD has offered several suggestions for Sen. Obama to show leadership and to act to unify the party. That could earn him tremendous respect and votes, and even Clinton supporters at the phones, knocking on doors, and the usual things a lot of us do during elections. Calling for a premature end, though, may make that impossible.

    It's his job to earn my vote, not Sen. Clinton's job to earn it for him.

    Give him his chance to do it.

    Parent

    It is not legitimate (5.00 / 4) (#141)
    by waldenpond on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:19:23 PM EST
    until it is voted on at the convention.  Stop the race so he doesn't get bashed?  Oh good grief.  Campaign or quit.  No one is doing a thing to him.

    Parent
    Wimp. (none / 0) (#186)
    by oldpro on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:52:23 PM EST
    The republicans (none / 0) (#82)
    by bjorn on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:53:23 PM EST
    are now calling Obama Pinocchiobama!  Do you think the "exaggeration" or "mistatements" or "lying" charges will stick any more in the GE than they have in the primary?  I am not sure they will.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 4) (#87)
    by Step Beyond on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:57:42 PM EST
    In the general the press will need to demonize one of the candidates. They think they need it for ratings. Right now they have Clinton. If their choices are limited to Obama or McCain who do you think they'll choose?

    Parent
    That's experience? (5.00 / 5) (#22)
    by JoeCHI on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:05:53 PM EST
    I've been the the Vatican 5 times.

    Does that make me qualified to paint a fresco on the ceiling of the National Cathedral?

    I have been to (5.00 / 5) (#32)
    by litigatormom on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:17:24 PM EST
    England (too many times to count), France (same), Italy(same), Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, Ireland, Greece, Turkey, Israel (and the West Bank), China, Brazil and Mexico, the Dominican Republic, Canada (multiple times) and Puerto Rico (not a foreign country, exactly, but they speak a foreign language).

    I think I'm in line to become Secretary of State, if not POTUS, don't you agree?

    Parent

    Oh POTUS defintely (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by Step Beyond on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:20:14 PM EST
    Hey I was born in Guantanamo Bay. Can I be your Secretary of Defense?

    Parent
    Either that (none / 0) (#65)
    by litigatormom on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:32:27 PM EST
    or my chief interrogator/military commissioner/Lord of the Star Chamber.

    Parent
    :D (none / 0) (#80)
    by Step Beyond on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:51:25 PM EST
    Lord of the Star Chamber! I would totally rock that position.

    Parent
    But you are overqualified to be VP (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:22:01 PM EST
    according to BHO

    Parent
    I had a 3 hour layover in Tokyo (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by badger on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:24:05 PM EST
    That qualifies me for ambassador to Japan on the Obama scale.

    Parent
    Oops, I forgot to mention my four (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by litigatormom on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:30:45 PM EST
    hour layover at Narita Airport on the way home from Hong Kong.

    I think that puts me over the top.

    Parent

    Hey, I spent a whole year in Japan. (none / 0) (#201)
    by allimom99 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:52:11 PM EST
    I even speak the language. So I should be President!

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by cmugirl on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:35:15 PM EST
    But maybe Pope?  :)

    Parent
    No, JoeCHI (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by bodhcatha on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:54:40 PM EST
    But it qualifies you to be Pope.  Congratulations, your Eminence!

    Parent
    According to Obama standards (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by BernieO on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:59:28 PM EST
    you could be Pope!

    Parent
    he knows "the people" in africa and (5.00 / 14) (#23)
    by english teacher on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:07:39 PM EST
    "the people" in pakistan, but he did not know that "the people" in his state senate district were living in heatless slums operated by his chum rezko?  

    I can see the ad now (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by standingup on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:44:12 PM EST
    with photo that Drudge had on his website. And a the photo of Obama as a child lving in Indonesia for four years contrasted with a photo of McCain as a POW for over five years.  

    I don't believe some of the gifts Obama gives to the Republicans to use against him in the general.    

    Parent

    He spent more time in Indonesia (5.00 / 9) (#26)
    by badger on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:12:42 PM EST
    than he has in the Senate.

    That oughta count for something.

    Foreign Experience (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by rnibs on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:15:37 PM EST
    I lived in South America from ages 6 to 10 and after college and as an adult have traveled in Europe.

    Looks like I have the same amount of foreign policy experience as Obama.  Yep, I sure feel ready to lead the free world.

    Clinton did make fun of this (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:17:23 PM EST
    foreign policy experience as a child claim many months ago.  It just got her roundly panned by the MSM as being 'so negative'.  Maybe it will get more traction now.

    Obama was implying also... (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by Josmt on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:18:55 PM EST
    He basically doesn't need Hillary as VP, since he has more experience than her...

    Bully for all of us then (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Regency on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:25:43 PM EST
    Because I won't have to feel guilty for not giving him my vote.

    Parent
    Don't like the idea at all. (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by ghost2 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:44:52 PM EST
    Hillary gets to do all the work, whereas he can just cruise and take all the credit.  Then when he screws up, she is there to clean up.

    Thank you very much. Woman have done the work quietly and cleaned up the mess.  Not any more.
     

    Parent

    Good. (none / 0) (#61)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:29:07 PM EST
    he can do the work all on his own, or get one of his buddies to help him.  ;)

    Parent
    If Indonesia decides to attack us... (5.00 / 6) (#37)
    by dianem on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:19:16 PM EST
    ...Obama is ready!!!

    You know (5.00 / 17) (#41)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:20:59 PM EST
    When Hillary Clinton went to China for the UN 4th World Conference on Women (and how sad is it that that was the name?  Like there are "people" and then there are "women"), I'm betting she went to the Embassy.  Chinese children probably did a little dance.  I'm certain there was tea (it being China).  And then she got up before her Chinese hosts and representatives from dozens of nations and said this:

    It is a violation of human rights when babies are denied food, or drowned, or suffocated, or their spines broken, simply because they are born girls.

    It is a violation of human rights when women and girls are sold into the slavery of prostitution for human greed -- and the kinds of reasons that are used to justify this practice should no longer be tolerated.

    It is a violation of human rights when women are doused with gasoline, set on fire, and burned to death because their marriage dowries are deemed too small.

    It is a violation of human rights when individual women are raped in their own communities and when thousands of women are subjected to rape as a tactic or prize of war.

    It is a violation of human rights when a leading cause of death worldwide among women ages 14 to 44 is the violence they are subjected to in their own homes by their own relatives.

    It is a violation of human rights when young girls are brutalized by the painful and degrading practice of genital mutilation.

    It is a violation of human rights when women are denied the right to plan their own families, and that includes being forced to have abortions or being sterilized against their will.

    If there is one message that echoes forth from this conference, let it be that human rights are women's rights and women's rights are human rights once and for all.

    I'm guessing she missed the trip to some USDA project.

    I wish (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by Suma on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:25:06 PM EST
    I could laugh at his audacity, but all I can do is cry at the way this smart woman is being disgraced. Well, being a woman, that is all I am capable of - at least according to some.
    Does democracy have to be so hurtful?

    Parent
    it just makes me sick that this guy (5.00 / 6) (#50)
    by g8grl on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:25:06 PM EST
    is being chosen to represent us.  I just don't see what all those Obama supporters see in him.  Why do they continue to support them?  It's a farce.  His idea of experience is living in Indonesia as a kid and travelling around after college.  He thinks that makes him MORE EXPERIENCED than Clinton and McCain.  I think that this is symptomatic of his idea that he's so fantastic, he doesn't really have to work very hard to jump to the front of the line.  He gets ahead by charm and misdirection.  Hard work is for grunts, he'll just think big picture and leave the results to the bean counters.  Sounds just like GWB.  

    It's also why he doesn't respect the Democratic party.  When it's so easy to become the party's standard bearer, you don't value the party.  If the Party is ripped apart?  Well easy come, easy go.

    I can see why some of his really young.... (5.00 / 7) (#66)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:32:49 PM EST
    ...supporters might believe this. I can't tell you how many interns I've had who by their second day on the job think they can do my job. This is his key audience. It's the cult of self-esteem. My own kids, god love them, thought they were great drivers the day after they got their learner's permit. I'm not so bugged by young people not valuing experience. They will learn to do so in time. But he's a bit long in the tooth to have that attitude.

    Parent
    McCain is a military brat (5.00 / 7) (#58)
    by esmense on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:28:18 PM EST
    he lived a large part of his childhood outside the country, too.
    And he lived in many different parts of this country (he attended 20 schools). Following Obama's logic, McCain can make the better argument about knowing not only more about the broader world, but also about the country.

    Of course no Obama supporter would buy that argument from McCain. Why should anyone buy it from Obama?

    It almost sounds like a yip dog (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by blogtopus on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:28:48 PM EST
    That gets all puffed up and feisty when on its own lawn, but watch out when the big dogs come around.

    Barry is almost daring anyone to contest him on this... and then what? He'll cry 'not fair' and run away? I'm confused by this move.

    My sister is a doctor (5.00 / 4) (#67)
    by litigatormom on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:33:49 PM EST
    and I've had five major surgeries on my knees, plus gall bladder surgery and two childbirths.

    I'm way ahead of Obama on that score.

    Kerry encouragement (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:33:51 PM EST
    Well, Kerry basically encouraged him by saying that the fact that he is black and lived abroad, he will make the middle east and all the moslems fall on their knees and do everything America wants.  That combined with the childhood is rather disgusting.  

    What was he doing in Pakistan?  It's not like the regular place everyone goes to.  Plays into my super conspiracy theory joke but not ready for TL snark.    

    He had better come up (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:52:37 PM EST
    with an explanation for the Pakistan trip before the GOP does.

    Amazing that we have just this moment heard about it, though.  And how are we to fact-check the trip?  What other countries has O visited that we don't know about?

    Parent

    Dunno about you (none / 0) (#123)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:56:37 PM EST
    It's not in the top 10 places visited by American twenty somethings.

    Parent
    Well, a certain element (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:03:35 PM EST
    but you have a point.  Or maybe I do.

    This is going to be a really, really big mistake.  If he makes it to the ge, which I am thinking is a chance that gets slimmer and slimmer, this is going to be the first rabbit the GOP pulls out of its hat.

    Why bring it up?  I mean, it's just absolutely stupid.  He has not released his passport records.  There hasn't been a lot of political heat to get them out...unless....maybe there has been a leak and he's been to some countries that might look iffy, so he's trying to get ahead of the press?

    It's just weird that he threw that in there, ya know?  And has anyone read his memoirs (from the age of 33?)  Did he write anything in his book about going to Pakistan?  Seems a pretty big trip not to mention.

    Very strange.

    Parent

    I thought everything was in his books? (none / 0) (#133)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:12:05 PM EST
    did he not write about his travels?

    Parent
    that's the question (none / 0) (#140)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:18:29 PM EST
    did he not write about his travels?

    Someone with a stronger stomach will have to skim the book and find out for us.  I nominate you!

    Seriously, I've never heard that before, but that doesn't mean it's not out there.  I've posted the question at No Quarter.  They're very good at sussing things out over there so perhaps someone knows.  I will report back on an open thread if it gets answered.

    A trip to Pakistan, given the rumors already swirling around (blatantly false as they are) is not going to help matters.

    Parent

    Duh (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:22:10 PM EST
    Quick google and courtesy of Jake Tapper:

    Apparently, according to the Obama campaign, In 1981 -- the year Obama transferred from Occidental College to Columbia University -- Obama visited his mother and sister Maya in Indonesia. After that visit, Obama traveled to Pakistan with a friend from college whose family was from there. The Obama campaign says Obama was in Pakistan for about three weeks, staying with his friend's family in Karachi and also visiting Hyderabad in Southern India.

    Tapper thinks it's a tad strange that got thrown out there as well, if it's any consolation to us conspiracy buffs.  This is all very strange, though.  I bet something has been leaked or is about to hit.  Pakistan was very different 20 years ago, but this is not going to help O one bit.

    Parent

    So a family visit/vacation with a friend (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:32:52 PM EST
    is now FP experience?!

    damn . . . .

    Parent

    Ask whoever looked at his passport file (none / 0) (#160)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:43:35 PM EST
    I think Obama's (5.00 / 6) (#84)
    by kayla on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:54:47 PM EST
    cultural awareness is important.  I bet that's part of how he connects to so many different types of people.  I think there should be more people running office who have lived extensively (even if they were a child) in other countries.  There should more anthropologists running the nation.

    But the thing about it is, I have no evidence as to how this can help him face the problems we have right now.  One thing I've always liked about Hillary is that she has a curiosity of global issues that makes her knowledgeable about things that she doesn't have to be knowledgeable about.  The reason I've read up on micro-credits and our relations with China is because of what I've learned about her interest in those things.

    So yeah... I still trust her more on this.  Sorry, Barack.

    I think he's starting to crack under the pressure. (5.00 / 5) (#86)
    by Gabriele Droz on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:57:13 PM EST
    Somewhere inside him he HAS to know that he's not prepared for this job, even if it's only sub-consciously.  Why else would put forth such really STUPID paragraphs?

    He's cracking.

    Dawning awareness (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by Lou Grinzo on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:17:35 PM EST
    I keep flashing to the end of the Redford movie, The Candidate, where he gets elected and asks someone (his campaign manager?), "Now what?"

    (Please be kind if my memory is really off base.  I haven't seen that flick in at least 15 years, probably longer.)


    Parent

    No, he's really that clueless. (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by MarkL on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:21:25 PM EST
    He has no idea how ridiculous he sounds. In that, he has a lot in common with Bush.

    Parent
    I think his arrogance is getting out of control (4.87 / 8) (#115)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:44:07 PM EST
    We have seen it again and again--he's just incredibly, off-puttingly arrogant.

    Now, let me say that all candidates are arrogant, otherwise they wouldn't be running for president, but he is downright cocky, and there is a difference.

    It came out when he blamed a ten year old for ruining his bowling game.  It came out when he got nasty with the guy who wanted the picture.  It came out during the 'sweetie' comment and the 'how about a kiss' bullsh*t.

    I cannot be the only woman who is so put off by this that it makes my skin crawl.

    Parent

    Not the only one (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by nell on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:18:04 PM EST
    Makes my skin crawl. I sent my sister a link to this article this morning and she too was disgusted by his arrogance and the way he belittles all of Hillary's experience.

    Parent
    Is it okay (5.00 / 5) (#89)
    by blogtopus on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:59:28 PM EST
    to actually come out and say this sounds like George W. circa 2000?

    Or do we hafta put our fingers in our ears and go 'NAH NAH NAH CAN'T HEAR YOU NAH NAH NAH' until he wins the nomination?

    I'm surprised Hillary hasn't pulled her hair out in huge locks after hearing wonder boy say things like this, and then having it swallowed HOOK, LINE AND SINKER.

    She's stronger than I imagined possible!

    he had me fooled, once (5.00 / 5) (#90)
    by anna shane on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:59:32 PM EST
    I thought for a while that living overseas might have given him some ideas about the world. Then I heard him say this, he said it first before the first primary, and also claim he had thought Saddam had WMD. If he really knew foreigners he wouldn't have thought that. He'd have known that Iraq lived with crippling sanctions and had daily drones monitoring their ever move and that we occasionally bombed them too.  he talks a good game but it's back by nothing.  He's a motivational speaker, he's got where he is based on his two motivational books, and it's wearing thin. How can he think being president is so easy you don't need to prepare for the job?  He is too long in the tooth for such immature  notions.  And he won't be our next president.  

    Boy, the Bush years (5.00 / 4) (#91)
    by Gabriele Droz on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:02:08 PM EST
    truly have screwed up our national conscience.  We no longer look at reality - we CREATE a new reality through new brain-altering commercials.

    Something like that.  Good luck America.

    Please (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by americanincanada on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:03:01 PM EST
    don't tell me that Obama's words do not worry you. We have a right to vett our candidate and choose the best of the two.

    the comment you are replying to (none / 0) (#103)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:26:04 PM EST
    was deleted

    Parent
    Perfect logic. (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by lentinel on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:08:51 PM EST
    The best way to get to know different countries is not to visit them.
    It creates a deep bond.

    Ugh (5.00 / 8) (#97)
    by nell on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:16:08 PM EST
    This disgusts me. I am sorry, I am a Democrat, and I know that is not a popular thing to say about another Democrat. But his comments disgust me and they scare me. He sounds too much like George W. Bush for my comfort.

    I mean honestly??? I have community organizing experience and I have lived in three different foreign countries for an extended period of time. All I need is a law degree and I too will be ready to President and Commander-in-Chief.

    He is arrogant and egotistical, and his attacks on Hillary's experience are downright sexist. She was sipping tea and watching little children dance. That's it.

    Each day I harden more against him. If he makes it to the general election, he will have to win without my vote.

    It does seem as though (5.00 / 6) (#106)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:30:57 PM EST
    he is setting himself up to lose an argument with McCain over what constitutes experience.

    To me, even saying you understand foreign countries because you lived in them is a show of arrogance.  You may certainly have more empathy and insight, but there is a lot of studying, thought, and team preparation that goes into interacting politically with elected officials in another country.  And there's a lot of living you'll have to do in one to truly get it.  Obama seems to be setting up a typical "I studied abroad" argument in this particular foray into US foreign policy theory.  

    The examples he provides are also less than compelling.  Here he sets up Clinton as a stewardness, himself as Mr. Peace Corps.  Run both of those against an ex-POW and see what happens.

    Plus the way he cites Hillary's experience strikes me as a bit personal.  Hillary Clinton was one of the most visible women in the world in the 90s.  She met unimaginably diverse people, spoke in front of diverse audiences, understood she represented more than herself...I think it was a type of service.  He makes her sound like Bush.  Now that man likes to dance in foreign countries.

    If this is really going to be a core part of his foreign policy we have to talk him out of it now, because I really, REALLY don't think it's going to cut it at center stage.

    Obama's smugness and arrogance (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by OxyCon on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:37:38 PM EST
    One of the first things I noticed about Obama when I decided to research and pay attention to him was his smugness and arrogance.
    I just recently read an article about his father witch excerpted Obama's book "Dreams of my Father" and also a political position paper written by the senior Obama, and the parallels in smugness, arrogance and the belief in superior judgment displayed by the senior Obama has definitely been passed down to the junior Obama.
    All of these personality defects the senior Obama had were his downfall.
    I'm not going to link to the article I read. Most likely it came from right wingers (never heard of the website before).
    But what I got from the article all came from the excerpts, not the opinion of the author.

    You know, there used to be a term (5.00 / 9) (#112)
    by Corella on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:38:13 PM EST
    for people like Obama -- "careerist".   Also, in the long ago when my husband was in the Foreign Service, we called people like him "arrivistes", meaning people with extreme ambitions not backed up by experience.  

    Sheesh -- I was BORN in another country, have lived in (I think-let me count) seven additional countries; my daughter
    lived in a couple of countries with us -- including Indonesia, overlapping time with The Chosen One.  She also speaks several languages and has a couple of advanced degrees.  Don't you think her qualifications beat his?

    I am aghast that this is being seriously touted as appropriate qualification for president.  He and his wife exude entitlement--they feel confident that they are supremely qualified for ANYTHING they choose to do.  It is pretty hard to stomach, and I am considering not voting if he gets the nomination -- which is now beginning to look like a given.

    Yes, it does. (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by ghost2 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:52:00 PM EST
    my daughter lived in a couple of countries with us -- including Indonesia, overlapping time with The Chosen One.  She also speaks several languages and has a couple of advanced degrees.  Don't you think her qualifications beat his?

    As Steinem said, when it's a woman, not many think that the pile of accomplishments and qualifications mean much.  They'll find faults with her.

    On the other hand, if she were a man, well, they'd be knocking at her door to run for office.

    Parent

    an army brat for CIC, anybody? (none / 0) (#212)
    by LCaution on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 11:49:10 PM EST
    When I first heard Obama make this absurd statement, all I could think of was a childhood friend whom I "lost" because her dad was in the army and she was in my city for only a year or two.  I lost track of the number of countries she lived in thereafter.

    If Obama's qualifications are all one needs, well, a large percentage of army brats, most Peace Corps volunteers, juniors studying abroad, etc., etc. have sufficient foreign policy experience to be CIC.

    If Obama is dumb enough to say this in a debate against McCain, McCain will destroy him in one of those endlessly repeated TV clips.

    Chutzpah doesn't begin to describe this level of arrogance.  The Music Man anybody?

    Parent

    I should be president then (5.00 / 3) (#116)
    by angie on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:49:11 PM EST
    My mom is from Athens, Greece & every summer of my life (until I graduated from grad school and finally had to go out and work for a living, so that's 26 summers) I spent the entire summer in Greece! Plus, a lot of times over the summer we would take little 1-2 week trips to other countries in Europe -- I've visited almost every country in Europe! And, my mom's family still lives there -- sure, they aren't poor, living in huts, but they aren't rich -- I KNOW THE PEOPLE!! I even speak the language!! No one can possibly have better qualifications on foreign policy then that.  Therefore, please vote for me as the next POTUS. Thank you.
     

    I anoint you (none / 0) (#135)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:13:54 PM EST
    Patriarch, proto-psaltis, Prime Minister and Sultan of the Ottoman empire.  

    Ha, my kids have the same credentials, but add Egypt to Greece for the summer trips.  

    Parent

    I do wonder... (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:15:32 PM EST
    why O thinks he knows what a foreign trip is like for a first lady.  His only experiences thus far have been as a very junior senator.  I can't imagine McCain passively sitting through the dance and the briefing, nor can I imagine senator Clinton putting up with the same.

    As first lady, she had far greater access to people in the government.

    And if O is arguing that Clinton as first lady was just sipping tea, then why would she be briefed by the local spooks on the state of the country?

    As with just about every comment O makes these days, further questioning proves that it just doesn't hold up.

    someone wake me up (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by DandyTIger on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:22:00 PM EST
    because I have to be dreaming all of this. This can't be real. It's just too ridiculous. Reminds me of that horrible dream I had in 1979, Oh wait. Oh dear.

    I would match my passport to Obama's (5.00 / 4) (#147)
    by fly on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:26:27 PM EST
    anyday!!!

    I retired as a 33 yr flight crew of one of the 9/11 airlines..can i be president now??????????

    Oh and my husband played Baseball in Venezuela and I lived in Caracas for over 6 months- 3 different times.

    Oh and I also lived in Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico and Toronto Canada for 1/2 of the year for 22 years!!..Can I pleaseeeee be president??????????

    Oh and I did it with a child...and a dog..

    I am a homeland security expert and a foreign policy expert!!  Please I know I can be president!!

    Oh and I am electible..I was elected as a delegate for my state!!

    fly

    I have to echo you, Jeralyn. (5.00 / 4) (#157)
    by BrandingIron on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:39:14 PM EST

    No, wait, not echo.  Emphasize.

    So when I speak about having lived in Indonesia for four years, having family that is impoverished in small villages in Africa--knowing the leaders is not important--what I know is the people. . . .

    WAS HE JOKING???  You've GOT to be kidding me.

    Let's look at this... (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:20:00 PM EST
    What is he telling other nations?  You have no complexity, history, politics, economics, interests, allies, enemies--all that does not matter, cause I experienced you when I was a child, and now I have all the knowledge I need about you simple "others".  Yikes.  Do you think his mother the anthropologist ever talked to him about respect of other cultures?  How many years do anthropologists take in observing cultures and still, they have to acknowledge ignorance.  

    Parent
    Again, shades of Bush (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by blogtopus on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:35:44 PM EST
    He's a 'man of the people', but not. He will be welcomed as change by the countries of the world, but they might be rather patronizing regarding his experience, or lack thereof. Like welcoming a child into your home, and having to 'kid-proof' the place before he does any damage.

    Parent
    None of this matters. Obama's talk and policy (5.00 / 6) (#176)
    by WillBFair on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:23:31 PM EST
    statements have been ridiculous from the git go. But the media never call him on anything, and his supporters are the most credulous bunch I can imagine. They're into the deep voice and sing song delivery. Issues are just not cred.
    Rubes took over the republican party some thirty years ago. If the old business republicans were selfish and heartless, at least they were educated. They were somewhat responsible in government, and you could have a conversation with them. Now the same thing is happening to us. We can't even talk to the people in our own party. They have no interest in policy debate or adult conversation, but speak the sleaze language of hick republicans: name calling, disgusting insults, false witness, the whole magilla. It's horrifying.
    http://a-civilife.blogspot.com  

    hear, hear (none / 0) (#189)
    by RalphB on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:03:05 PM EST
    glad I'm not the only one who feels that way.

    Parent
    The real problem is (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Foxx on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:33:04 PM EST
    who are Obama's handlers? That is, who is Axelrod working for? The usual suspects I guess. The guy isn't capable of being his own president, just as Bush isn't.

    It's funny watching (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by blogtopus on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:38:12 PM EST
    the relative maturity of the Obama fans plummet as their wonder boy proves more and more what a child he is in the political world.

    Mistaken ratings (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by DeborahNC on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 10:50:04 PM EST
    In my zeal to rate dianem's comment a 5.0, I inadvertently pressed the "rate all" button. Since I AM NOT an Obama supporter, I couldn't honestly rate all of the comments that highly.

    Many of the satirical comments about BO's foreign policy experience were so funny to me that I was actually laughing out loud; that is, until reality set in. If Clinton supporters can make some of Obama's statements sound so ridiculous, then consider what a creative and vicious paid political operative, like Karl Rove, will do to Obama's statements on his FP experience and many other topics.

    From that perspective, the situation becomes frightening. Imagine what a McCain presidency would do to our economy, the environment, the Iraq situation, etc... Our country can only take so much abuse from its so-called leaders. I sincerely worry about the devastating impact that another Bush-like presidency would have on our country.

    In Obama's arrogance, he's unable to see his own weaknesses, therefore making us all more vulnerable to another 4-8 years of Republican rule.


    Well... (none / 0) (#210)
    by Alec82 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 11:38:07 PM EST
    ...while I am vehemently opposed to a McCain presidency, I don't know that he will be Bush part deux.  He could be better, could be worse.  He does not appear to understand fundamental economics, which is problematic, to say the least.  At the same time, I don't know that the more radical elements of the conservative movement are eager to join a McCain administration.  

     To me Senator McCain is something of a wild card.  I can easily see Senator Clinton or Senator Obama as president.  It has never been easy for me to imagine what the McCain administration would look like.  He is deeply incompetent but he also relishes his own image as a "maverick" and "independent."  

     I also don't know how to evaluate his POW experience, which had to be crushing on a variety of levels.  It must have some influence on the way he looks at the world, but I am not sure how that translates in his approach to politics.  

     Bottom line: For all we know about Senator McCain, we don't know a great deal.  He is a gamble.  The only candidate in this election who is not a gamble is probably Senator Clinton, if only because her fear of negative public opinion will translate into another centrist presidency.  We'll see what happens.    

    Parent

    well if it is unimportant to know leaders (4.85 / 7) (#46)
    by TheRefugee on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:22:59 PM EST
    then how does he meet with foreign states in a meaningful manner?  Call up Croatia and say, "President Obama here.  America would like to do such and such in Croatia, I'd like to come over and go over the proposal BUT I don't need to meet with your govt, just give me ten minutes with the ordinary people and I'll make my assessments and decisions."???

    Plus, passing off Hillary's meetings with foreign dignitaries as "meeting the CIA chief, watching some kids dance"...is exceedingly condescending.  As First Lady she accompanied Bill to state functions both at home and abroad..was more than a meet and greet with the CIA station head...Just as knowing and being friendly with long time DC politicos gives her a better chance at being a bipartisan president..her meeting and getting to know many foreign heads of state, ambassadors, etc gives her a better chance at being a respected peer worldwide.

    Maybe Obama's experience on such trips is that simple...but then Obama is a simple man with little or no curiosity as to how to govern, how to build public and political support.  He is winning based solely on his ability to play the race card and energize his supporters in Caucus states...that is all...that is it.

    There was a great diary on MyDD about how Hillary would be wasting Obama in a "general election" style winner takes all delegates primary.  Obama is lucky that states like CA, NY etc get to split their delegates proportionally.  Our primary process is flawed and must be fixed.  In any other manner of picking a nominee Obama would be a footnote not a frontrunner.  And we wouldn't have to deal with a fourth year Senator (not fourth TERM) trying to pass himself off as being experienced, as being a foreign relations whiz, as being the bridge to bipartisanship..nor would we have a media core who is willing to promote the idea that such an inexperienced person is "the right guy at the right time".

    Questioning (4.75 / 4) (#77)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:46:04 PM EST
    Remember the infamous Obama press conference where 8 questions flumoxed him?  Well, imagine if he had to take the questioning Petraus and the Ambassador are taking.  I have to give it to these guys, hours and hours of this.  

    Obama - Obama - Obama - Oh my. (4.28 / 7) (#131)
    by lentinel on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:10:21 PM EST
    Clinton is so much more intelligent and knowledgeable than her opponent, BO, that it is scary.

    It is scary that she could be so trashed by the media and the intelligentsia of this country.

    I am increasingly appalled at the stupidity and arrogance of Obama. His statement today comparing his "foreign policy" experience (from ages 6-10) to Clinton's having visited 80 countries (he thinks he has more "experience"!!!!) makes me run to have a martini.

    When Clinton speaks, I sense a leader. I feel that my family and I might have a chance to survive in this dangerous world.

    When Obama speaks, I hear only self-serving nonsense. And dumb nonsense at that.

    I have moved from feeling disinterested in Obama to being disgusted and frightened by a nobody whose ego increasingly resembles the Hindenberg.

    Well I can relate I feel increasingly disgusted (none / 0) (#154)
    by voterin2008 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:35:04 PM EST
    and frightened when I read posts like this!

    Parent
    Explain please. (none / 0) (#162)
    by lentinel on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:50:31 PM EST
    What is it exactly that makes you feel disgusted and frightened by the post to which you refer?

    Parent
    Obama Testifies at Foreign Relations Committee (none / 0) (#5)
    by 1jane on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:53:54 PM EST
    Senator Clinton and Senator Obama have nearly completed their testimony and questioning of Ambassador Crocker and General Patraeus. It shocked watchers when a Republican Senator referred to Senator Obama as "probably" the next President of the US. Clinton performed extremely well as did Obama. Both demonstrated they have the chops in foreign relations through their grasp of the situation in Iraq. Enjoy the replays and be proud of both Democratic candidates for President.

    yes, the GOP want to run against Obama (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Josey on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 04:59:43 PM EST
    >>>It shocked watchers when a Republican Senator referred to Senator Obama as "probably" the next President of the US

    Parent
    I did not think (5.00 / 9) (#43)
    by americanincanada on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:21:50 PM EST
    Obama demonstrated he had the chops for anything. He was terrible. He demonstrated that he does not have agrasp of the issues, he pigg backed on Boxer's question, he seemed to need to have them explain things to them and then went on a long winded speech using his talking points as if he were on the stump.

    In the end his question was one that had been asked already...by Clinton...and she did it with much more gravitas and while looking much more presidential.

    At one point it looked like Croker was actually smirking at him just before he explained to Obama, "this is complicated."

    Parent

    Props to Hillary (5.00 / 6) (#63)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:30:36 PM EST
    Jay Carney (TIME) just said to Chris Matthews that Clinton "was the most effective" and "most knowledgeable" of the 3 candidates at the hearings.  Even Matthews was praising Clinton - must have hurt to do that.

    Parent
    Tweety must have had to take a tranquilizer (5.00 / 4) (#70)
    by litigatormom on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:34:49 PM EST
    before he said that.

    Parent
    I think it was "possibly". (none / 0) (#130)
    by Joan in VA on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:09:02 PM EST
    Shame on the (none / 0) (#25)
    by Andy08 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:10:49 PM EST
    people attending the fundraiser for swallowing it and paying premium $$ on top of it...

    If I had been sitting there I'd  have felt he was is insulting my intelligence...

    Politics is so strange....

    On CNN Now (5.00 / 5) (#47)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:23:14 PM EST
    CNN just played a tape of the event where he made those remarks - you can hear the crowd laughing as he mocks Hillary's official trips.

    Then they interview Larry Sabato - who says that Obama's arrogance will turn off voters.

    Parent

    The tape is supposed to be on Huffpo.... (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:27:22 PM EST
    ...it actually sounded much worse than it read with the laugh track and his tone was very snarky.

    Parent
    So can we safely assume the Hillary hate receives (5.00 / 4) (#73)
    by ahazydelirium on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:35:42 PM EST
    encouragement from the top?

    He's really making it hard for me to support him in the General, if he gets the nomination.

    Parent

    AUMF (none / 0) (#27)
    by magster on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:13:07 PM EST
    Clinton voted for it. Obama spoke out against it.

    No amount of mocking of Obama will change that.

    In the Name of all that is Hopeful (5.00 / 8) (#33)
    by Regency on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:17:35 PM EST
    And yet, no amount of being illogical will make him president.

    Who brought up AUMF? No one. You can't keep playing the Iraq war card. It doesn't work.

    Parent

    just words (5.00 / 15) (#34)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:17:47 PM EST
    and he didn't follow through when he got to the Senate.

    Parent
    A Speech, Then Silence (5.00 / 13) (#52)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:26:16 PM EST
    Jeralyn - Obama's position against the war would have led one to expect that he would lead on this issue when he came to the Senate.  Not so.

    I think that Obama's failure to follow his antiwar speech with any serious political initiatives to end the war he claimed to oppose is a huge liability.  Every time he lapses into the 2002 speech - he should be asked why he waited so many years to follow through.  It's actually a huge liability - no leadership when it mattered.

    Parent

    I agree with this. (4.75 / 4) (#137)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:15:52 PM EST
    If the war was really his issue he would've said something and taken on prominence as a harsh and useful critic in his Senate position.  He didn't.  Political considerations took precedence over a continued princpled stance.  That doesn't bother me in and of itself, so many did the same.  But Obama's genius, to me, is running a campaign.  Moral leadership usually pushes from the fringes.  To me that's where the real hope lies.  And as the blogosphere goes progressively downhill (or downhill, progressively...haha) you gotta wonder where the new moral leaders are going to come from.

    Parent
    Some words I'd like from Clinton (none / 0) (#53)
    by magster on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:26:47 PM EST
    "I'm sorry."

    Parent
    Not her war (5.00 / 4) (#71)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:34:56 PM EST
    It's Bush's war.


    Parent
    Her response is better (5.00 / 9) (#78)
    by ahazydelirium on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:46:15 PM EST
    From CNN :
    Senator Clinton: You know, I've said many times if I had known then what I know now, I never would have given President Bush the authority. It was a sincere vote based on my assessment at the time and what I believed he would do with the authority he was given.

    He abused that authority; he misused that authority. I warned at the time it was not authority for a preemptive war. Nevertheless, he went ahead and waged one, which has led to the position we find ourselves in today.

    If she apologizes, she's admitting she could have voted any other way in THAT moment: instead, she said that given what she knew at the time, she could not have voted any other way.

    The response she gave is far more realistic and shows consistency, while simultaneously acknowledging her error. The nuance and reasoning she provides speaks more to how thought out her vote was--even if, in hindsight, it was obviously wrong. This call to apologize for her vote (or for any vote) is ridiculous. I don't want politicians who know how to say the right things; I want politicians who can see an error and work to change its effects.

    I suspect many others agree.

    Parent

    I do agree (5.00 / 5) (#81)
    by americanincanada on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:52:15 PM EST
    I also do not want a politician who will apologize just to make a few happy when it opens he up to inumerable attacks from the right, a la John Kerry.

    Parent
    What about Kerry? (none / 0) (#127)
    by Marco21 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:59:55 PM EST
    Did these  Obama voters not vote for Kerry in 2004?

    Just curious.

    Parent

    Probably voted for Bush (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by badger on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:32:14 PM EST
    Bush didn't vote for the AUMF, after all.


    Parent
    Will you vote for her then? (none / 0) (#74)
    by cmugirl on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:38:01 PM EST
    If that's all it takes for Obama's supporters to vote for Hillary, we'll contact the campaign right now!

    Parent
    I do give him credit for that (5.00 / 4) (#40)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:20:40 PM EST
    for what it's worth.  Lost of people spoke out against it, but I don't think that alone qualifies them to be president.

    Parent
    I thought this election was about the future (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by badger on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:27:01 PM EST
    not about the past.

    Parent
    I give Obama props for having spoken (5.00 / 5) (#56)
    by litigatormom on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:27:35 PM EST
    out against the invasion. But he wasn't actually faced with having to vote. He was a relative unknown at the time, not in the Senate and not even really visible as a potential candidate. Since he became more prominent, and certainly since he got into the Senate, Obama's voting record has been consistent with Clinton's.

    To be clear, I'm not saying that looking at the context of his speech negates his early anti-war stance, but I don't think you can completely ignore the context, either.

    Furthermore, despite Obama's emphasis on that speech when talking about "judgment," his anti-war position, standing alone, does not constitute conclusive proof of superior judgment on foreign affairs generally, let alone on the whole spectrum of matters a President must consider.  I was against the invasion of Iraq too; that doesn't mean I have the judgment to be Commander in Chief. Clinton's vote in 2002 is something I had think long and hard about before I decided to support her; in the end I decided that what was more important to me was who I thought would get us out of Iraq faster and on better terms. For me, that person is Clinton.


    Parent

    He paid no price for it (5.00 / 5) (#76)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:44:52 PM EST
    Should he have paid a price for it?

    What I mean is being against the war too soon might have been a problem for him.

    What I mean is being too outspoken against the war too soon might have been a problem for him.

    It was a problem for Dean.  He became unelectable because he spoke out against the war TOO LOUDLY.  Too Soon.

    It gave the republicans a chance to polarize Dean on the electorate and brand him a pacifist.

    You see, what I mean is some polticians take stands on things and then they pay a price for it.  Clinton made a decision, and she paid a price for it.

    Dean made a decision and he paid a price for it.

    Different decisions.  Different prices.  And we can talk about it all day about who was right or who was wrong, but we have to agree they both have paid prices for their positions on the Iraq war.

    So.  Is this just an example of Obama's superior political skill?

    Well.   We do know it's not triangulation when Obama does it.  Is it?

    He has his speech.  Great speech.  Didn't amplify it.  It wasn't his fault it wasn't amplified.

    Blah blah blah.  He went on Charlie Rose and quietly talked about the Iraq war.  

    I was just thinking has Sen. Barack Obama ever taken a stand on anything that resulted in a political backlash.  From the left?  OR the right?

    From anyone at all?

    I suppose he just hasn't been around long enough.


    Parent

    Exactly (5.00 / 5) (#104)
    by abfabdem on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:26:19 PM EST
    to my knowledge he has never put himself on the line for anything. Can an Obama supporter name one stand he has taken that used political capital because it was something he believed in?

    Parent
    AUMF (5.00 / 5) (#117)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:49:45 PM EST
    Clinton voted for it. Obama spoke out against it.

    And my jaw just opened with the depth of a boa constrictor gorging on its prey as I read this statement for the zillionth time.

    Had O railed against the war from the senate floor, had he introduced bill after bill for withdrawal, had he done anything but make one speech some time ago when his political career was actually helped by it, I would say you have a point.

    "I told you so!" is not viable foreign policy.

    Parent

    Yes... (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Marco21 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:57:05 PM EST
    eventually he did speak out against the war he continues to fund after saying he was not ssure how he'd have voted, etc.

    You guys really are a broken record.

    Parent

    Check the timeline up above (none / 0) (#101)
    by abfabdem on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:22:32 PM EST
    to see what Obama did about the war once he got into the Senate? He may talk a good game but what were his actions?

    Parent
    You remember.... (5.00 / 1) (#209)
    by oldpro on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 11:33:59 PM EST
    "Never mind what they say...watch what they do."

    Parent
    Clinton would be more credible on foreign policy (none / 0) (#28)
    by fuzzyone on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:13:15 PM EST
    if she told the truth more

    In seriousness though, I think this is nonsense.  Clinton's "experience" looks less and less impressive and more and more like a bunch of field trips as time goes by.  While I think being a pilot and POW are actually not all that impressive experience to be commander in chief I think lots of people disagree.  The problem with Clinton emphasizing experience over judgment is that in the GE she loses the experience fight and, having made so much of how important experience is she is going to have a tough time making that pivot.

    Obama has more foreign policy experience than Bill Clinton did (and while I don't worship the guy lots of folks around here seem to) and better judgment about the most important FP decision of our time than either Hillary or McCain.

    "Field trip"= Experience I can see (5.00 / 8) (#48)
    by Regency on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:23:49 PM EST
    And yet, however like "field trips" her visits may look that doesn't change the fact that she actually, you know, went.  I didn't see Barack hanging out in Bosnia--ever. I haven't seen him many other places either. Surely, not 80+ countries.

    Barack had no judgement about Iraq because--and this may stun you--he wasn't in the Senate. That's a talking point and a weak one. If Barack wants to claim good judgment he'd better have a better explanation than "a boneheaded decision" and "I pushed the wrong button" for Tony Rezko, Jeremiah Wright, and his 130-odd present votes in the State Senate.

    Quite frankly if his is the kind of judgment with which I'm supposed to choose a president, then I think I'll stick with the one with bad judgment.

    Hillary FTW!

    Parent

    You are not (5.00 / 7) (#93)
    by standingup on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:08:07 PM EST
    very well informed on Bill Clinton.  He could run circles around Obama for experience with foreign policy before he was even elected the Governor of Arkansas.

    With the aid of scholarships, Clinton attended the Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University in Washington, D.C., receiving a Bachelor of Science in Foreign Service (B.S.F.S.) degree in 1968. He spent the summer of 1967, the summer before his senior year, working as an intern for Arkansas Senator J. William Fulbright....

    Upon graduation he won a Rhodes Scholarship to University College, Oxford where he studied Government.[14] He developed an interest in rugby union, playing at Oxford and later for the Little Rock Rugby club in Arkansas. While at Oxford he also participated in Vietnam War protests, including organizing an October 1969 Moratorium event. (Wiki)

    And during that time as an intern "he worked on the staff of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which was chaired by Arkansas senator J. William Fulbright."  

    I would say a degree in Foreign Service, studying abroad and working on the staff of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee stands up very well against Obama's experience.  

    Parent

    heh . . . . . (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:33:10 PM EST
    I went to Cancun (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by OxyCon on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:12:38 PM EST
    And Canada!
    I'm a foreign policy expert now!
    Lol!
    Silly Hillary supporters.
    Don't you know that everytime you go on vacation, you get one step closer to the White House?
    Knowing the leaders of 80 different countries on a personal basis is no way to claim foreign policy experience.
    Going on a foreign vacation with your college buddy is the best training a President can get.

    P.S. I hope Obama wasn't in Pakistan for the same reasons that Johnny Taliban, Adam Gadahn and Jose Padilla were.

    Parent

    fuzzyone, you can look here... (none / 0) (#152)
    by lookoverthere on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:33:30 PM EST
    Factheck.org does it's thing. The result is a mix---but Factcheck.org isn't supporting any of the three presidential contenders.

    Third time today, standingup's Lexis Nexis search of then-First lady Hillary Clinton's trip to Tusla.

    Media Matters also does a small thing about Bosnia.

    Joe Klein also talked about Sen. Clinton in Bosnia on Anderson Cooper 360. Transcript here.
    I grabbed this from No Quarter.

    JOE KLEIN, COLUMNIST, "TIME": Well, actually, tonight, I had dinner with someone who was on that plane...

    COOPER: Sinbad?

    KLEIN: ... with Hillary Clinton.

    (LAUGHTER)

    KLEIN: And -- and the fact is that they were told that there was -- that they had to take evasive action because of sniper fire, one of those precipitous landings that a lot of us have -- have taken, but, on the ground, there was obviously no problem.

    It's a war story, and -- and she exaggerated it. And it doesn't speak well of her. And it's very un-Hillary like. But could I just, for the sake of the fact that we're in silly season now, and everybody -- all these candidates are totally exhausted, just plead for charity, not only for her, but for the Obama supporters who have said embarrassing things in the next segment and...

    (LAUGHTER)

    KLEIN: ... for John McCain a week ago?

    I mean, these are not the important issues in the election. The important issues are two wars, an economic crisis, and -- and the need for energy independence.

    COOPER: Yes, but, you know, there are a lot of folks out there who -- I guess, in this case, it's probably more Obama supporters -- and, clearly, the Obama campaign says this is important. This is a candidate who has talked about her role in the Northern Ireland peace agreements and other issues about going to Kosovo and going to Macedonia and negotiating on behalf of Kosovo refugees.

    You think this is all, Joe, just part of silly season?

    KLEIN: I think that there is -- that being first lady really isn't the greatest credential for being commander in chief. But that's something that we have known in the past.

    The question is whether you blow up these little exaggerations that everybody makes, including candidates, to the point where it obscures the real issues in the campaign. I'm willing to give her a break on this one, even though, as I said, it's very much unlike her, and it's clearly her telling a war story.

    Just FYI.

    Parent

    I don't think he's a moron. (none / 0) (#129)
    by Marco21 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:08:40 PM EST
    His supporters, well????

    Just kidding. I think.

    What's the old expression...? (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by lentinel on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:25:51 PM EST
    If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....

    Parent
    Plumbing the Depths of Arrogance (none / 0) (#132)
    by Trickster on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:11:44 PM EST
    Will the Secret Service come after you if you say a guy needs a swift bop in the chops?

    Sorry a little bitter today and (none / 0) (#151)
    by voterin2008 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:33:21 PM EST
    dissapointed to come to TalkLeft.com and to continue to see threads that don't support Hillary Clinton and bring her up.  No threads that deal with real issues like the Iraq war, economy, civil rights, home foreclosures, healthcare, public education, unemployment rates.  Just more threads trying to tear down the likely Democratic candidate.  In the imortal words of Clinton herself "shame on you".

    Maybe Obama shouldn't be the (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by MarkL on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:41:33 PM EST
    Democratic candidate, if he writes the attack ads against him! If what he said was satire, it would be devastating---but he's serious!
    He's tragically weak. He could lose every state in November.

    Parent
    Perhaps (5.00 / 2) (#169)
    by lentinel on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:10:25 PM EST
    Perhaps you should write the post that you think is lacking in TalkLeft.

    Tell us your opinion on the real issues you say we do not discuss here.

    What do you think about the Iraq war, the economy, civil rights, home foreclosures, healthcare, public education, and unemployment rates?

    In this thread we are discussing Obama's comments about foreign policy and Hillary Clinton. Many of us find what he is saying to be inane.

    I suggest you scroll down to a post by "ColumbiaDuck".
    I found it to be moving. Maybe you will also.

    I will re-post it here for you to make it easy:

    - ColumbiaDuck on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:20:59 PM EST

    When Hillary Clinton went to China for the UN 4th World Conference on Women (and how sad is it that that was the name?  Like there are "people" and then there are "women"), I'm betting she went to the Embassy.  Chinese children probably did a little dance.  I'm certain there was tea (it being China).  And then she got up before her Chinese hosts and representatives from dozens of nations and said this:

    "It is a violation of human rights when babies are denied food, or drowned, or suffocated, or their spines broken, simply because they are born girls.
    It is a violation of human rights when women and girls are sold into the slavery of prostitution for human greed -- and the kinds of reasons that are used to justify this practice should no longer be tolerated.

    It is a violation of human rights when women are doused with gasoline, set on fire, and burned to death because their marriage dowries are deemed too small.

    It is a violation of human rights when individual women are raped in their own communities and when thousands of women are subjected to rape as a tactic or prize of war.

    It is a violation of human rights when a leading cause of death worldwide among women ages 14 to 44 is the violence they are subjected to in their own homes by their own relatives.

    It is a violation of human rights when young girls are brutalized by the painful and degrading practice of genital mutilation.

    It is a violation of human rights when women are denied the right to plan their own families, and that includes being forced to have abortions or being sterilized against their will.

    If there is one message that echoes forth from this conference, let it be that human rights are women's rights and women's rights are human rights once and for all."

    Perhaps, having been exposed to the seriousness and intelligence of Senator Clinton's words, and the seriousness and intelligence of the person posting them as a response to Obama's stupid and self-serving remarks, you might feel a little less "disappointed" in the TalkLeft community.

    Parent

    Aw. (none / 0) (#167)
    by Marco21 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:57:51 PM EST
    Obama isn't getting praised here enough? So sorry.

    Parent
    Nope I don't care about praise for any (none / 0) (#204)
    by voterin2008 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 10:32:04 PM EST
    candidate, like who you want I like my candidate you can like yours.  I'm sure if I wanted to here praise for Obama I could go somewhere else.  But I like it here, I've seen many threads with high intellectual discussion and genuine concerns of the Democratic party and of the American people. The reason for my negative post which I would usually attack myself on, is listening to today's hearings on Iraq.  And the deep concern that I have that our course will not change and we will sit idely by as our local and national economic conditions worsen, millions go with out health care, millions more lose their homes from foreclosure, and as race and gender are used to cast our candidates as victims and not the true leaders that they are.  I could go on but I'm past my earlier woes of dwelling on the darkside.  Back to my story I then went to TalkLeft assuming of course the Iraq war with today's hearings, with the hand selected generals and McCain echoing the Bush policy of stay the course we are winning we are making progress that has plagued us for the last six years would be the topic of discussion.  I was ready to vent and discuss my frustration.  But then I found yet another thread meant to discredit the likely Democratic nominee for President.  I come here alot so it doesn't surprise me just caught me on the wrong day.  If people want to prioritize their own political agenda or candidate instead of talking about issues then that's their right.  So I apologize but don't take my frustration as pushing my own agenda the only agenda that I claim is to elect a Democratic President.  And although I have voted, donated money and given time to elect Obama I am only trying prove that I will support my intention with action.  And if Clinton is nominated I will put the same energy in seeing she is elected during the GE.

    Parent
    Clinton's response in November (none / 0) (#171)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:19:50 PM EST
    Here is how Round 1 of this same 'my childhood experience is good enough' line went.  This article is from November

    Link

    Short version:  He says much of what he said today.  Clinton mocks it.  He says 'oh yeah, well experience didn't help you and Dick Cheney stay out of Iraq.'

    Just so you know how this dance goes.

    Not experience (5.00 / 4) (#174)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:21:25 PM EST
    Experience did not get Cheney and Bush lie about the war, it was their personal interests conflicting with the interests of the American people.  

    Parent
    Right, that was pretty effective for Obama. (none / 0) (#175)
    by MarkL on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 08:22:43 PM EST
    Let's see what she comes up with this time.
    I hope the topic comes up during the next debate.

    Parent
    Obama and Foreign Policy (none / 0) (#203)
    by navyvet48 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 10:07:40 PM EST
    When is Obama going to go talk to the President of Canada? lol.... ( i know they have a prime minister, but Obama doesn't).

    Does he even know (none / 0) (#213)
    by carrienae on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:17:39 AM EST
    what the hell he is talking about? Gee... I guess his speech assistant was off that day.