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It's Not A Contest

This condescending dismissal of Marie Cocco's great column on sexism really annoys me. A.Serwer writes:

Like Marie Cocco, I could come up with my own list of Media Matters clips and offensive merchandise that I could use to argue definitively that racism is worse than sexism. But I'm not sure what that would prove, other than that I believe the prejudice I've faced is qualitatively worse than the prejudice I know nothing about.

Is is really impossible to just condemn sexism without comparing it to racism? As for making a list of examples of racism in the Media so that we can address that problem as well, I think that is a very worthy thing to do. I would support it. Serwer's attempt to trivialize Cocco's concerns is frankly, outrageous. When he writes:

I don't understand why for some people the Democratic primary has become a competition over who has it worse.

I think - look in the mirror when asking that question A.Serwer. That is on you. What a terrible, condescending and dismissive post.

Speaking for me only.

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    I read that article this morning (5.00 / 15) (#1)
    by DCDemocrat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:16:58 PM EST
    I thought it was like the revelation that the emperor was wearing no clothes.  Sweetie.

    Would the sexism backfire?? (5.00 / 13) (#54)
    by ghost2 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:49:29 PM EST
    Clinton backer backlash

    An Ohio-based group of Democratic Hillary Clinton supporters say they'll work actively against Sen. Barack Obama if he becomes the nominee, arguing that Clinton has been the subject of "intense sexism" by party leaders and the media.

    [snip]


    "We have been vigilant against expressions of racism, and we are thrilled that the society has advanced that way" in accepting Obama as a serious candidate," Ruccia said. "But it's been open season on women, and we feel we need to stand up and make a statement about that, because it's wrong."

    With growing calls for Clinton to leave the race, she said, women feel like "we're being told to sit down, shut up, and get with the program."



    Parent
    It's always open season (5.00 / 6) (#151)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:42:10 PM EST
    on women. We've come "a long way" but there are still many miles to go. There is no serious lashing for gender bias.

    Very interesting piece on the news today about a 6' tall, 15 year old female basketball player in Beaverton, OR. She's black, and the reason she can no longer play at "The Hoops" is because she is so good at the game, the opponents they play against refuse to play if she remains on the team. They have kicked her out because she is a female.
     

    Parent

    Did you notice (5.00 / 3) (#175)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:12:43 PM EST
    at the end of the article, Ben Smith says:

    Oh, and they're doing O'Reilly tonight, of course.

    What is he implying here? that maybe they might be Republicans in disguise? or what?   If he is, I think he's in for a rude awakening, because people who feel this way AREN'T Republicans.  And they VOTE (or don't vote) as the case may be.

    I plan to join (if I can) and donate to the group.

    Parent

    This part (5.00 / 12) (#2)
    by andgarden on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:17:30 PM EST
    Cocco's approach basically excludes all women of color from the conversation
    suggests that Ms. (Mr.?) Serwer is not that smart. It's a completely illogical reaction. It's the epitome of false outrage.

    At the intersection of racism and sexism, (5.00 / 15) (#23)
    by ahazydelirium on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:35:32 PM EST
    women of color bear witness to the complexity of both issues. I'm sure Serwer believes the outrage to be real. Instead of using this example as an opportunity to discuss the very real (and unquantifiable) prejudices that exist everywhere in our society, Serwer's illogical outrage simply throws up more barriers, further polarizing a dichotomy of injustices that were never a dichotomy to begin with. He does what he accuses Cocco of.

    Talking about sexism doesn't mean we can't talk about racism. Indeed, detailing one prejudice shouldn't start a game of "one-up-manship," as though one issue places all others into obscurity. If anything, this attack against the original piece on sexism brings out the intellectual prejudices that continue to manifest themselves in this primary season. When Serwer says this:

    But I'm not sure what that would prove, other than that I believe the prejudice I've faced is qualitatively worse than the prejudice I know nothing about.

    the real prejudice comes out. Racist hatred, of which he (?) is a victim, should act as a stepping stone to understanding the sexist hatred another receives. But, in this declaration, he shuts down any empathic opportunities to ruminate on his own misfortune--forgetting the (also) real misfortune of others and passing on an opportunity to build a stronger voice against all prejudices.

    Parent

    Oh, and by intellectual prejudices (5.00 / 4) (#62)
    by ahazydelirium on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:51:21 PM EST
    I didn't mean the uneducated vs. educated problem we've seen this season.

    Rather, I mean that this person has conceptualized his own victimhood and is holding onto it as a symbol for what constitutes legitimate discrimination. For example, saying something like "You can't know my pain because you're not a [insert disadvantaged group]" is the wrong approach. Not every black person, not every woman, not every queer experiences the same degrees of hatred [and some receive none at all]. Tying the sense of hurt, or tying the experience of an -ism, to a status is neither productive nor accurate, and I suspect (from what this person wrote) that that is where he is coming from. His implied concept of sexism and racism seems more exclusionary than his claims of interdependence would have you believe.

    All -isms stem, fundamentally, from the same source of distrust and hate--no matter their social manifestations. He accuses Cocco of polarizing and barricading sexism in a privileged area, but then he seems to do the same himself.

    In any case, his views on sexism and racism, as they seem in this short paragraph, reveal less about the objective problems of biases and reveal more about his own biases.

    Parent

    fear too... (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by kredwyn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:56:45 PM EST
    I've found that distrust and hate are part and parcel of fear.

    Parent
    Well said. (none / 0) (#201)
    by 0 politico on Thu May 15, 2008 at 08:03:01 PM EST
    I don't know the writer, but how blind do you have (5.00 / 15) (#3)
    by bjorn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:18:20 PM EST
    to be to complain about something while doing the thing you are complaining about!

    We Must Live With The Fact That There Are (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:44:59 PM EST
    always going to be those who don't get it, or just plain choose not to get it.  

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 11) (#4)
    by Steve M on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:20:16 PM EST
    I really don't like to bring up the Rev. Wright, but his comment about that word that Hillary ain't never been called is kind of emblematic.

    One of the reasons the Democratic coalition is so dysfunctional is that so many of us fail to understand it's not a competition over whose problems are worse.  Not everyone can have their way every time.  Racism and sexism are BOTH serious problems and good Democrats should be focused on fixing BOTH of them - not on bickering over which one of them should be fixed first.

    It is fair to note, as Cocco does, that our collective radar seems to be far more attuned to instances of racism than sexism.  That is not to say that sexism is a bigger problem than racism or that we ought to ignore racism in order to deal with sexism.  It's simply to note a fact that we shouldn't be comfortable with.

    Actually Cocco did NOT make that point (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:22:07 PM EST
    But Serwer exemplifies it.

    Parent
    No? (5.00 / 5) (#28)
    by Steve M on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:36:28 PM EST
    Would the silence prevail if Obama's likeness were put on a tap-dancing doll that was sold at airports? Would the media figures who dole out precious face time to these politicians be such pals if they'd compared Obama with a character in a blaxploitation film? And how would crude references to Obama's sex organs play?

    That strikes me as a clear argument that we are more sensitive to incidents of racism than sexism.  Which, as I said, is different from arguing that sexism is worse than racism, a debate that benefits no one.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:40:24 PM EST
    I was wrong in that point. That said, I think it was not the main thrust of cocco's argument.

    Indeed, it would have been better has she not included that in her penultimate graf.

    Parent

    That's right... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:48:28 PM EST
    see my post above.

    It is not possible to speak about sexism without qualifiers or comparisons. It is not accepted that women have any barriers to success in America.

    Parent

    Contextually it's relevant (5.00 / 5) (#60)
    by kredwyn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:50:54 PM EST
    in that both are bad and both should be roundly criticised...where in reality, one would trigger outrage while the other goes ignored, unopposed...indeed lauded.

    I don't think that she's using either example as points in a contest re: who is the more oppressed identity group. Whereas the responder appears to be turning this into a "I'm more oppressed than you" thing.

    Parent

    Add to racism and sexism (none / 0) (#136)
    by feet on earth on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:33:28 PM EST
    xenophobia,
    homophobia,
    religious persecution,
    agism and lookism
    (I am sure I sam not listen them all)

    They are all forms of oppression that create systemic barriers to achieve equal human rights.  Grade them to divide people and we all lose while mainstream society maintain power and control with scatter and ineffective challenges.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 8) (#64)
    by Steve M on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:52:33 PM EST
    I think a lot of people will not understand what the big deal is unless it is framed in that way.

    When your argument is that our society is unduly comfortable with casual sexism, then the likelihood is that your audience will be comprised of people who are unduly comfortable with casual sexism.

    It's no use to decry Hillary nutcrackers if the reaction is going to be "shrug, what's the big deal."  I'm not sure how to make people understand what the big deal is, other than to draw a comparison to other things that they do consider a big deal.

    Parent

    Excellent post, Steve (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by kmblue on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:40:44 PM EST
    I think people don't get it unless
    a comparative example is drawn.

    Parent
    Those remarks by Wright (5.00 / 11) (#19)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:31:21 PM EST
    make it impossible to defend him, and I get really, really upset when good liberals try to guilt themselves into doing so.

    Wright's sexism is just as bad as his racism, IMHO.

    Parent

    I believe there are many entrenched (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:37:03 PM EST
    powers and organizations, gays, minoritys, women, who have a vested interest in promoting the politics of victim hood.
    my victim hood is greater than your victim hood.
    its always been a pet peeve about the gay movement.  what does it gain us?
    my motto has always been, I may be many things but I am nobodys victim.


    Parent
    That's what was so different... (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by Dawn Davenport on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:20:55 PM EST
    ...about Jesse Jackson's presidential race in 1988; remember the Rainbow Coalition?

    Rather than creating false dichotomies between Democratic sectors (religious vs. secular, gay vs. straight, black vs. white, younger folks vs. older folks, elite vs. working class), Jesse reached out to all of them under one banner.

    Of all the memes shoved down our throats this primary season, the one that purports Obama to be the "unity" candidate is the most outrageous to me.

    Parent

    This is what women face (5.00 / 20) (#5)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:20:56 PM EST
    when trying to discuss sexism honestly. It is either dismissed, or some braniac tries to claim that some other minority group has it worse.

    Never ever is it okay to just say, women are discriminated against every day in society and we need to do better. The male power structure feels threatened and immediately tries to shut us down.

    As evidence, note the continued failure of the ERA. Note that women are still getting paid less than men for equal work. Note that maternity leave is disappearing and being replaced with "disability" pay, as if motherhood and pregnancy were illnesses. Note that Barack Obama thinks it's all right to call perfect strangers "sweetie" and offer women kisses in return for votes.

    We've got a long way to go, baby.

    You said it but it is too bad (5.00 / 11) (#24)
    by bridget on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:35:41 PM EST
    so many female Obamafanatics showed similar fake outrage.

    Women didn't come together to fight misogyny during this campaign and this bothers me more than I can say. I expected more from a lot of women I used to respect, esp. the older ones. Women like Barbara Ehrenreich. Clinton hate or Obama love, whatever, blinded them. It's sad and embarrassing (for them).

    Parent

    Barbara is also on (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by bjorn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:40:36 PM EST
    my sh!t list and I told her politely of course why I was so disappointed in her.

    Parent
    I was so appalled by her support (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:46:54 PM EST
    of Obama (because it was so unthinking) that I made it a big part of one of my posts on Teh Media and Hillary.

    Parent
    What bothered me was that (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by bjorn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:50:12 PM EST
    "Hillary's religion" is a big problem, implying that going to prayer breakfasts on the hill was the same as being part of an evil cabal of white men???!! I thought she was above that kind of crap, so you are right, her support of Obama made her do some really stupid, unthinking things.

    Parent
    All the more idiotic (5.00 / 10) (#91)
    by tree on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:08:14 PM EST
    after it was revealed that Obama has attended the same prayer breakfasts.

    Parent
    SERIOUSLY? (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:11:33 PM EST
    OMG.

    Don't drink the brown Kool-Aid, Barbara!!!

    Parent

    Seriously... (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by tree on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:14:49 PM EST
    thank you so much for this! (none / 0) (#137)
    by bjorn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:34:04 PM EST
    You're kidding. (none / 0) (#125)
    by pie on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:27:19 PM EST
    I never knew that.  I know my pals at the old blog kept bringing the Ehrenreich article up.  I was like wtf?  Very disappointed in Barbara, too.

    People have suspended disbelief willingly.  Sad.

    Parent

    Nickel and Dimed (5.00 / 4) (#65)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:52:53 PM EST
    Gee, the people she wrote that book about and made all that money, I guess don't see the world her way.   Makes ya think.  You can put on the outfit for a few days, but if you don't get class consciousness, you just don't get it.  

    Parent
    Sorry about the first versions (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:21:29 PM EST
    I had messsed up the coding. fixed now I hope.

    She did not (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:22:37 PM EST
    Serwer is the one who started a contest.

    In fairness, Cocco's penultimate graf says (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:39:26 PM EST
    Would the silence prevail if Obama's likeness were put on a tap-dancing doll that was sold at airports? Would the media figures who dole out precious face time to these politicians be such pals if they'd compared Obama with a character in a blaxploitation film? And how would crude references to Obama's sex organs play?

    While that may be a fair point, in thinking on it, it would have been better had Cocco not included that in this piece.

    Parent

    That's how I read it (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by nycstray on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:08:32 PM EST
    any sign of racism in the campaign is met with lots of noise, sexism? 'crickets'.

    Parent
    Just this a.m. I was thinking about (4.40 / 5) (#96)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:10:19 PM EST
    Bill Clinton's statement Obama's explanation of his position on war in Iraq and funding the war constituted a "fairy tale."  How in the world is that a racist statement by Clinton?  

    Parent
    They bought it (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:12:25 PM EST
    hook line and sinker.  Same tactic as the WMDs. I tell you.  They are such dupes.  

    Parent
    Recently Bush sd. he was quite disappointed (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:22:24 PM EST
    how poor the intelligence was upon which he relied to invade Iraq.  But I thought the intelligence wasn't the problem.  

    Parent
    It wasn't (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:56:14 PM EST
    The "fairy tale" comment was about judgment and pointing out all the times post-2002 speech against the war where Obama contradicted his anti-war stand.

    It's on YouTube and worth a view.


    Parent

    BTW, thanks BTD for providing Marie's (5.00 / 8) (#10)
    by bjorn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:24:06 PM EST
    column. I thought it was excellent, the strongest point being the deafening silence from our political leaders.

    Well said. (5.00 / 11) (#27)
    by ghost2 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:36:20 PM EST
    I honestly think women has become much more passionate in support of Hillary both because of overwhelming sexism in media and political 'old boys' culture, and the absence of outrage from the so-called leaders.  

    When a woman called Hillary a B**ch in front of McCain, Party leaders (male AND female) should have raised hell.  Not one person, not Dean, nor Pelosi, nor Obama, nor Edwards, nor any other candidate, nor Boxer, nobody said anything.  Neither did (IIRC) any of the women's group.

    There have been some tepid, academic discussion of sexism.  Meanwhile, women have noticed the floodgates of sexist behavior have opened and aimed at the first viable female presidential candidate.  

    Parent

    Boxer esp. is a huge disappointment (5.00 / 6) (#58)
    by bridget on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:50:32 PM EST
    I still can't get over the fact that Randi Rhodes was able to engage in her nasty Hillary hate rant with impunity. Actually she was proud of it.

    Rush said re Hillary that Americans didn't want to see a woman grow old in the White House (paraphrase)

    and the women pols don't seem to care.

    Parent

    Depressing, isn't it? (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by nycstray on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:12:16 PM EST
    I'm no fool, know it exists and have experienced my fair share, but the last few moths just make me want to scream. The silence is deafening some days . . .

    Parent
    Depressing, isn't it? (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by nycstray on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:12:46 PM EST
    I'm no fool, know it exists and have experienced my fair share, but the last few moths just make me want to scream. The silence is deafening some days . . .

    Parent
    Yes, to Randi Rhodes (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:04:31 PM EST
    yet, Michael Richards and Imus took severe public judgments for similar acts only with a racist theme.

    Sadly, women often feed the sexism out of jealousy.
     

    Parent

    Totally Agreed (5.00 / 2) (#205)
    by Jane in CA on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:22:11 PM EST
    I've been very disappointed in Barbara Boxer. I've supported her since her first senate run in 1992, but I can't see myself voting for her again, given her deafening silence during this campaign.

    The prominent "feminist" women in politics who have remained shamefully silent over the last few months contribute to the problem just as much as the Kennedys and Kerrys, IMO.  

    Parent

    And the Air America (5.00 / 4) (#107)
    by abfabdem on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:16:03 PM EST
    hosts fell all over themselves to say the pimp comment about Chelsea was just the way people talked today and was no big deal.

    Parent
    You know what was truly sad? (none / 0) (#153)
    by CLancy on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:44:45 PM EST
    Neither did Hillary. She's one of our leaders as well. Unless I missed something along the way. In fact, when directly confronted with sexism on the campaign trail, she usually laughed it off. Does that mean she tacitly approved it also? No, it doesn't. That being said, I don't really like the notion of the (mostly male) party leadership riding in to defend her against sexism. Expecting it also seems a bit, um, sexist.

    This column isn't the first on the rampant sexism and misogyny exhibited during this campaign, nor will it be the last. I'm sure there will eventually be numerous scholarly articles & books on it as well.

    Also, Cocco seemed to be inviting the comparisons to racism (which are problematic and usually infuriatingly tinged with partisan feelings right now). The better of those future scholarly pieces will probably analyze how race AND gender affected the campaign this year.

    Parent

    Somerby has pointed out that when the pol (5.00 / 3) (#177)
    by jawbone on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:19:15 PM EST
    points out unfair treatment, it meand the pol (esp'ly if the pol is a Dem) is a whiner.

    Indeed, when Bill Clinton complained about unfair press coverage, he was attacked by the MCM.

    They do control the microphones that get broadcast, of course, so have an advantage.

    Somerby says that's why it's so sad the Dems don't have spokespeople in the MCM or it near environs who have the courage to speak out in defense of the pols attacked unfairly.  Until that happens, the MCMers will just continue doing what they do. Bcz they get away with it.

    The lib/prog MCMers want that next step up the run too badly -- and have nowhere else to make the big bucks. As the rightwads do.

    Parent

    The Identity Politics Rule Book... (5.00 / 11) (#12)
    by kredwyn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:24:58 PM EST
    specifically states in Chapter 5 Section 245 Subsection B: Only one group is permitted to be oppressed, or to see itself as being oppressed, at any given point in time. If another group wishes to be oppressed, or to see itself as being oppressed, that group must wait its turn.

    If any group attempts to jump the line? There will be political ramifications for line jumping.

    /s

    No (5.00 / 7) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:25:35 PM EST
    We might upset ASerwer if we do that.

    What a jerk.

    Sort of snarky question (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:25:50 PM EST
    If Obama is nominated and wins, does that settle the argument?  Will it prove sexims is worse?  Probably not.  But the converse would result in self Shia style self flagellation parades up Market Street in San Francisco and 5th Avenue with every intellectual bemoaning the state of our nation.  

    Not at all (5.00 / 11) (#34)
    by Steve M on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:38:08 PM EST
    Because, you know, we're totally fine with a woman as President.  Just not THIS woman.

    Get it, sweetie?

    Parent

    Why, honey, I'll (5.00 / 4) (#110)
    by abfabdem on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:17:32 PM EST
    vote for you if you give me a kiss!

    Parent
    I'm starting to enjoy posts (5.00 / 9) (#16)
    by Nadai on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:27:26 PM EST
    like A. Serwer's.  They're like a marketing tool for feminism.

    "See, class, here's a prime example of the clueless sexist.  Notice the smug tone, the dismissiveness, the confession of ignorance.  Now over here is Rush Limbaugh..."

    By the time this election season is done, a revitalized feminist movement should have millions of new members.

    Reverse Racism Is Still Racism (5.00 / 7) (#18)
    by JoeCHI on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:30:39 PM EST
    I resent being called a racist because I support Hillary Clinton.

    Further, just because I find Rev. Wright offensive and delusional and question the judgment of the Obamas for having sat in his pews for 20 years doesn't make me a racist either!


    The problem I find when discussing sexism, (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Florida Resident on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:31:54 PM EST
    specially this days, has been that someone always claims something like;  
    Cocco's approach basically excludes all women of color from the conversation

    or similar.  What remarks like these do not realize is that sexism is a problem is a problem in all of society, including minority groups.  
    BTW let us not forget that women are a majority that is treated as a minority.

    Huh? (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by neoliberal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:33:25 PM EST
    "Would the silence prevail if Obama's likeness were put on a tap-dancing doll that was sold at airports? Would the media figures who dole out precious face time to these politicians be such pals if they'd compared Obama with a character in a blaxploitation film? And how would crude references to Obama's sex organs play?"

    She drew a direct comparison with race in her article. Yet you criticize the response to it for... bringing race into it?

    Her point was (5.00 / 7) (#25)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:35:59 PM EST
    that people discount sexism, but not racism.

    Not that one was more important than the other.

    Obviously.

    Parent

    No... (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by kredwyn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:37:03 PM EST
    He's talking about the responder's saying that one is worse than the other...when they are both bad and should be addressed at the same time.

    Parent
    That's a fair point (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:36:10 PM EST
    But I do not believe it was the main thrust of her piece. Do you?

    Parent
    So Serwer's response to Cocco (5.00 / 9) (#22)
    by chancellor on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:35:12 PM EST
    is to say "Can you top this?" How incredibly juvenile.

    It's all about how well you got along w/your (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by vicndabx on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:36:46 PM EST
    mother and how you saw the men in her life treat her.  That's we're the respect for women and their perspective begins.  Just because I don't see something happening doesn't mean it isn't.  Nor should I discount the pain caused.  Geez, and these are supposed to be the smart people.

    'scuse the typo (none / 0) (#33)
    by vicndabx on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:37:37 PM EST
    where

    Parent
    Bigotry's bigotry: HRC a target of foes, 'friends' (5.00 / 10) (#32)
    by Ellie on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:37:29 PM EST
    Apart from the column, the comparison isn't a matter of what 'Ism is worse on the individual, but bigotry being allowed, indulged in and even encouraged on an individual who is in the spotlight running for office.

    The same number of racist slurs leveled at Obama for being black would receive a response in media and from partisans and non-partisans.

    The same amount of media time fomenting racist-based fantasies and attacks -- those being criticisms having nothing whatsoever to do with his own words and deeds -- would bring forth a heated Dem response.

    Their silence on the sexist pile-on HRC has had to endure is one reason I'll support her, but not the DNC any longer (or slur-slinging TeamObama in the GE.)

    did you see Boston Legal last night? (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by Josey on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:04:52 PM EST
    one segment showed pics online of Hillary, Obama, and McCain.
    Viewers were shown approx 10 mocking pics of Hillary - and 1 each for Obama and McCain.
    Oh and Shatner farted in response to Hillary's name.
    It was disgusting!

    Parent
    But at least (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by magisterludi on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:30:20 PM EST
    Shatner's character admitted she was the one the he couldn't beat, if she was the dem nominee. And Obama as Whitney Houston was pretty funny ("He's too pretty to win!").

    Parent
    Boston Legal's not on my TV menu (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Ellie on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:31:00 PM EST
    Given Shatner's performance prowess, I presume the fart was barely believable? (Shatner the guy's funny, but this is indefensible.)

    Due to a flexed work schedule I only follow a couple of shows, and even those, only semi-regularly.

    I've got a whack of recorded TV to catch up on during the summer should Sen Clinton be muscled out before ALL the votes are cast and counted at the convention, though.

    That means MI and FL FIRST, and 2210 determining the Dem ticket.

    This season of Boston Legal sounds hot though.

    Parent

    In an earlier post (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by samanthasmom on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:39:50 PM EST
    someone mentioned a "million woman march on Denver". I've been floating that idea with the women I meet, but most of them cannot afford to make the trip or have family obligations that prevent it.  However, one of them suggested this, "What if there was an election and women stayed home?" The problem with her idea is that many men would prefer it if women did just that. How can we send a message that we've had enough?  I stopped watching TV shows that allow misogyny and sexism to pass as entertainment, and I've tripled the number of books I usually read because there is very little left to watch. I'd like to see another run made at passing the ERA, but the young women I know don't seem to think there's anything to gain by it.  Where's the outrage?

    Young women today (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:58:12 PM EST
    think if they don't see sexism, it doesn't exist.

    Meanwhile, women in their mid-twenties are injecting poison into their faces to avoid even the faintest appearance of aging. Nope, no double standard there!

    Parent

    biology too (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by nellre on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:03:21 PM EST
    People are animals at the top of the food chain. We're still driven by some hidden agendas

    Parent
    Young women (none / 0) (#120)
    by CST on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:24:40 PM EST
    I think we know pretty well that it exists.  We are also wary of crying wolf though.  There are some things I have read this election period, written by feminists of the boomer generation, that infuriate me.  As if I am somehow abandoning my gender or I hate my mother or I am scared of my boyfriend so that must be why I am voting for Obama.  These arguments make it harder to take the real ones seriously.

    That being said, we know plenty well that it exists, and many of us do get angry about it when we see it.  We are just hard to convince that we are actually seeing it.

    Also, I think there is a bit of a backlash against the products of the feminist movement.  Our mothers wanted to have it all, family, job, etc... and we saw them almost kill themselves in the process.  So I know plenty of women who would like nothing more than to stay at home and take care of the kids.   And they are very wary of people who would criticize them for that - and they are criticized by other women who claim they are being "feminists".

    Parent

    Have you read the pieces on Huff Post (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:27:45 PM EST
    [left side of the page] by women such as Ehrenreich and others who call out Hillary Clinton for running her campaign like a man, etc.?  Do those columns raise your hackles; do you generally agree with them?  I'm curious.  Thanks.

    Parent
    I don't read Huff Post (none / 0) (#138)
    by CST on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:35:00 PM EST
    But yea, when I read stuff of that nature it pisses me off too.

    Parent
    Good. (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:09:10 PM EST
    I never understood that either - (5.00 / 3) (#130)
    by pie on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:30:39 PM EST
    women criticizing each other for life choices.

    Talk about undermining your sisters.  And both sides have done it, so both are equally responsible.

    Solidarity, baby  (or sweetie  ;))

    Parent

    I know what you mean (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by CST on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:37:48 PM EST
    I am one of those who could never give up working - I think I would go crazy trying to take care of kids all day.

    But some of my best friends feel exactly  the opposite, and that's cool with me.

    Parent

    The fact that Hillary (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by pie on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:45:15 PM EST
    is not only a successful career woman but a great mom is one of the reasons I admire her so much.

    It makes me ashamed of other women who seem to hate her.  Certainly, there must be some jealousy involved.

    Parent

    I believe (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:36:31 PM EST
    that you absolutely have every right to vote for whomever you please. No one should attack you and make you feel like you are betraying our foremothers because you support Obama.

    However, pretending that Obama and the press are not sexist towards HRC is, in my opinion, a sad denial of reality. I hope you are objective enough to realize that "you're likeable enough," "the claws come out" and "periodically down" were sexist dogwhistles from Obama.

    And clearly, feminists who have been fighting for equality for decades are going to be upset about such things.

    Parent

    Sexism (none / 0) (#163)
    by CST on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:55:27 PM EST
    I'll give you one out of three:

    "the claws come out" and one you didn't mention "sweetie".

    The other two really don't bother me, mainly because I could see someone saying the same things about a male, any male - especially "you're likeable enough".

    However, I never thought Obama was perfect, or the Messiah, and Hillary has certainly said some unfortunate things as well.  So I think as far as offensive comments go it's a wash.  I am willing to give them both the benefit of the doubt and say that we all make mistakes and I think there are some things engrained in our language by society that we can't control, so sometimes we slip.  I have said some things that were unfortunate too.  I think ultimately you can tell by how they treat the people around them.  For me, Michelle is the ultimate vouch for Obama.  I think she is strong, intelligent, and sometimes puts her foot in her mouth.  But the fact that he decided to marry someone like that tells me a lot about him.  Although Michelle could back off Hillary a bit, I think she sometimes falls into that women criticizing women for their choices a bit too much (the Monica comments).

    The press however, is unforgivable.  They are systematic and consistent with their treatment of Hillary.  I have heard significantly worse things, more often, from those guys at MSNBC than I have from any of the candidates.

    Parent

    Mothers (5.00 / 3) (#145)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:37:55 PM EST
    Our mothers wanted to have it all, family, job, etc... and we saw them almost kill themselves in the process.  So I know plenty of women who would like nothing more than to stay at home and take care of the kids.

    I want to understand why you are angry at the mothers and absolve the fathers that got it all.  They had the super mom, the second income , the social director, the athlete, yet, those dad's did sort of sat by as the woman was killing herself.  

    I did not want it all for myself.  I wanted to make sure that if a "divorce" was to come, that my children and I would not plunge into poverty as is the case with divorces.  We did not want it all for ourselves, that is just insulting.  

    We fought for choices, for women having the choices to do what they wanted.  Working and being a mother was a choice that was not allowed or even permitted.  Our struggle to make that acceptable, makes your choices possible.  So, the culture wars were not for our ego, they were about setting precedents.  Do you maybe see why we don't buy the Obama narrative?  

    Parent

    I am not angry at all (none / 0) (#169)
    by CST on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:06:39 PM EST
    I am just telling what I have seen and heard.

    It's not about anger towards mom at all, it's about wanting something different for themselves.  Not because mom did a bad job, just because that's not the life they want.

    I didn't mean to suggest that it was all for ego.  I just mean to say that some of us don't want what you fought for, because we saw it backfire.  I think we are all appreciative of the freedom to choose whether or not to work.  I for one, could never stay at home, I'd drive myself crazy.

    Parent

    Sorry that you don't understand (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by Cream City on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:20:52 PM EST
    that you think what we fought for backfired, that you think you don't want what we fought for -- because you want the right to choose.

    That is what we fought for.  But bless your heart, anyway.

    Parent

    "just hard to convince" (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by nycstray on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:45:45 PM EST
    well, it could be because of the acceptance level of sexism and also, the progress that was made by the Boomers. They've broken barriers down to an extent that you didn't live through some of it. Many of us chose our acceptance and our battles from experience that you may not have. Doors are open for women that weren't previously open, but that doesn't mean that rampant sexism isn't actively working against us daily. Our radar is prob on a different frequency than the younger woman.

    Parent
    I don't think that is the world brought to (5.00 / 4) (#160)
    by samanthasmom on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:51:12 PM EST
    you by the last round of feminism that makes it difficult for you to stay home and raise your children.  Many of us did just that.  I used to push a stroller when I marched for women's causes. I think that it is the economy - specifically the cost of buying a home in many parts of the country that requires the two income family.  I would love my daughter to be able to stay home with her child, but her mortgage requires her income.  However, her company does have flex-time and good maternity leave policies that were unheard of in the 50's and 60's. She is able to work four days a week and have a day home.  I work on a contract basis and can do "baby sick days" for her.  It's not a generational war between women when you really get involved.  Don't buy the "spin".  You can have it all now, but we learned the hard way that maybe you can't have it all once.  Many of support Hillary because we see in her Presidency a better world for our daughters.

    Parent
    Bingo! (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by Dawn Davenport on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:31:05 PM EST
    The so-called "Mommy Wars" are a fiction created by the political right to divide and conquer women, and to deflect attention from national policies that make things difficult for working families, such as lack of daycare and paid parental leave.

    Parent
    Having it all (none / 0) (#193)
    by Nadai on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:49:34 PM EST
    But the reason women don't "have it all" isn't because of feminism.  It's because too many men don't pull their weight at home and with the children, and too many offices are set up on the assumption that all good workers have a wife at home to take care of the maintenance of living.  To blame women for not being able to completely transform the world - especially in the face of active opposition from men/employers who aren't being blamed at all - strikes me as grossly unfair.

    Parent
    What I did was reregister undeclared (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by nellre on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:01:50 PM EST
    Lots of others here have too.
    If we did that en mass it'd speak loud and clear.

    Parent
    boycott General Electric (none / 0) (#75)
    by Foxx on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:00:41 PM EST
    JUST for starters.

    Parent
    I have a feeling that (5.00 / 14) (#40)
    by frankly0 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:42:08 PM EST
    the hate directed Hillary's way, and the form of its expression, may have opened up a Pandora's Box of sexism in our culture, taking us back some decades in what's considered acceptable for people to say about women.

    Just as an example (not even one involving hate, but just the coarsening of our language), does anybody doubt that if a politician other than Obama had referred to a woman reporter as "Sweetie" even just a year ago, he'd get no end of grief for it?

    I wonder how many women supporters of Obama are going to feel when they find themselves, in the future, the target of very condescending language in the workplace or elsewhere, protest about their treatment, and can find no sympathetic ear for their complaints.

    I don't see how this toothpaste goes back in the tube anytime soon.

    I think you're essentially right (5.00 / 4) (#47)
    by andgarden on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:46:17 PM EST
    That's why WWTSBQ is even funny at all. Because it reflects something real--and quite disturbing.

    Parent
    I also think that (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:46:41 PM EST
    a lot of the stuff we have seen directed toward Hillary would have caused a firestorm in the PC left if they had been directed at any other woman.
    I think some part of this is unique to Hillary and what is considered acceptable to say about her.


    Parent
    I mean (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:48:33 PM EST
    imagine a Sandra Day Oconnor nutcracker.

    Parent
    I disagree (5.00 / 5) (#105)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:14:38 PM EST
    Absolutely disagree.  This is typical piling on using gender.  It is a gang mentality that has been used to denigrate females since elementary school.  A woman will be a target, sexism the weapon, and the excuse is... it's not all women, just that woman that deserves it.  I saw it as a child, I have seen it in families and watched it at work.  Targeting is a way to belittle and demean a woman.

    Parent
    Have you ever noticed (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by samanthasmom on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:33:01 PM EST
    that when boys want to really put another boy down in school, one of the frequently used "slurs" is to call each other "girls"?  The football coach at our local high school made the mistake of telling his squad to stop being "a bunch of girls".  Our female principal responded by opening the team up to the real thing.  Gosh, that year they had the best place kicker ever, and she did it barefoot. God I miss that woman in our school, but she earned her retirement.

    Parent
    that is probably only (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:37:45 PM EST
    because he is afraid he would get in trouble if he used an unflattering epithet for being gay.
    poor coach. his choices keep getting constrained so he uses the dependable fall back.

    Parent
    Hillary (5.00 / 3) (#148)
    by nell on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:40:38 PM EST
    is the punching bag. Because of the way society has maligned her, people feel like they can take out their frustrations about women in general on her. If you hate your female boss that is more powerful than you, you can't say anything to her face, but you can make fun of nutcracker Hillary all day and vent your frustrations. She is the punching bag for the way society really feels about women.

    The sexism that has shown its face during this campaign is disgusting and the silence of so many leaders in the Democratic party makes me feel ill. But it isn't just the Dem leaders, I have even been disappointed by the tepid reactions of organizations such as NOW and Emily's List that I admire greatly. They have been reluctant to speak out too strongly because 1) they didn't want to hurt their own political capital, and 2) they didn't want to hurt HRC's campaign since they both endorsed her. What I would have really liked is for NOW and Emily's List to DEMAND that this BS stop and for them to demand a reaction from Democrats.

    Parent

    I think you nailed it (none / 0) (#158)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:49:49 PM EST
    I had a horrible thought flash through my mind (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Florida Resident on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:43:11 PM EST
    With all the blatant sexist remarks and positions put forward during this campaign by the MSM and others what would happen if some 20 to 25 % of Women decided not to vote in November.

    Lysistrata (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:45:51 PM EST
    The Creative Class (5.00 / 4) (#51)
    by andgarden on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:47:29 PM EST
    does not concern itself with such proletarian diversions as sex.

    Parent
    How sad for them. ;-) (5.00 / 4) (#63)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:51:49 PM EST
    I was just not gonna vote. (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:14:19 PM EST
    "We're just not interested (none / 0) (#189)
    by lilburro on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:09:12 PM EST
    in the female vote right now."  Remember that?  Talking Points Men-o?

    Andrew: "I'm not sure the accusation of bias is particularly helpful. For now, like I said, we're focusing on getting our long-standing regulars and folks covering things we don't on the blog. I recognize that you think female voters should be one of those things, we disagree."

    Parent

    The two bosses in my Home (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by Florida Resident on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:50:37 PM EST
    Wife and Daughter, say that they will probably not vote unless Hillary is the candidate because of the way she has been treated.

    Parent
    My vote won't count... (5.00 / 5) (#109)
    by jerry on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:16:43 PM EST
    In other news related to how I want the electoral college to go away, it doesn't matter if I vote for Obama, Clinton, Gravel, Paul, Nader, or Barr.

    The whole state is going to give its electoral votes to McCain.

    This is yet another reason why I am very pleased that Hillary is fighting it out.  Choosing the primary winner is the only chance I have in expressing my vote.

    Parent

    Exactly.... (none / 0) (#142)
    by miriam on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:37:03 PM EST
    But does withholding votes make as great an impact as withholding sex?  

    Parent
    Except (none / 0) (#162)
    by Steve M on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:52:38 PM EST
    the Lysistrata strategy might lead to a continuation of the war!

    Parent
    If by that you mean McBush getting elected. (none / 0) (#187)
    by Florida Resident on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:01:39 PM EST
    Well that is something the DNC should consider as the continue to ram their will on large demographics of the Party.  I believe in unity but this we must vote Democrat because the option is _____(fill in the blank) is beginning to wear thin.

    Parent
    If by that you mean McBush getting elected. (none / 0) (#188)
    by Florida Resident on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:02:15 PM EST
    Well that is something the DNC should consider as they continue to ram their will on large demographics of the Party.  I believe in unity but this we must vote Democrat because the option is _____(fill in the blank) is beginning to wear thin.

    Parent
    I know (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Steve M on Thu May 15, 2008 at 07:45:48 PM EST
    I'm the last person who would try to guilt you into anything.  And I'm way too cynical to believe that any Democrat is a 100% bet to end the war, anyway.

    Parent
    NPR just now having segment with Kevin Merida (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by jawbone on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:45:49 PM EST
    who wrote article about high number of racist incidents against Obama's campaign and workers. At end mentions lots of misogyny and that it's easier to be forthrightly sexist than it is to be outright racist.

    Here's the Merida article (none / 0) (#70)
    by jawbone on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:56:23 PM EST
    They Have To Raise Race (5.00 / 8) (#50)
    by BDB on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:47:21 PM EST
    Because they have to dismiss any suggestion that sexism or misogyny played any role in the campaign.  Because if they played a role, then these folks are moral failures for not standing up for women.  Worse, it makes it that much harder for them to bully women to simply get behind the nominee.  It's a lot easier to achieve Unity if you refuse to admit that anything divisive has happened or that you played a role in it.  And, yes, those who sat silent, played a role in it.

    Bit of fun (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:50:21 PM EST
    I am getting a "Forbidden" error... (none / 0) (#61)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:51:03 PM EST
    is it my firewall? (I work from home.)

    Parent
    No quarter has it also (none / 0) (#66)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:54:14 PM EST
    Thanks Stellaa! (none / 0) (#74)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:58:43 PM EST
    FORBIDDEN (none / 0) (#78)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:01:14 PM EST
    She makes good points (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by rghojai on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:54:25 PM EST
    The racism/sexism question aside, the column is a good reminder of what's felt like silence or close from the prominent people... and from not-prominent people.

    I've two sisters, both of whom are pro-Obama, one more tightly wound in general and more rabid for Obama, but both of 'em have said zero about the misogyny--and they're both educated, professional, have expressed zero stomach for old boys networks, belittling comments, etc. I can guarantee that a man calling either of them "sweetie," asking them to make coffee, etc., would go over like a lead balloon.

    I get that the perfect is the enemy of the good and all that, but feels like one could be pro-Obama and displeased with things that have been said and done in the course of the campaign, at least by members of the media (pun intended). Seems more like "If it helps Obama, it's good!"

    Can wonder if, to some degree, it comes from the top. I could be wrong and would welcome someone relating as much, but as I understood it, at least yesterday and perhaps at other times, when people boo Clinton, Obama does not say (in so many words or otherwise), "Stop that. That's not what this campaign and I are about."

    Absolutely! (5.00 / 6) (#76)
    by pie on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:00:47 PM EST
    I get that the perfect is the enemy of the good and all that, but feels like one could be pro-Obama and displeased with things that have been said and done in the course of the campaign, at least by members of the media (pun intended). Seems more like "If it helps Obama, it's good!"

    It's as if any defense of her at all is somehow showing disloyalty to him.  The worst part is that he has nothing to earn such devotion - he's a less-qualified candidate who's played it very safe so far in a very tightly run campaign.

    When the big guns come out in the general (if he's the nominee), I'm going to be watching from the sidelines as their lamentations fall on deaf ears.  Whining will get them nowhere and only make Obama look weaker.

    Parent

    Should Obama become the nominee.. (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:03:38 PM EST
    we will be stunned at the number of racists he and his campaign will suddenly discover.

    Parent
    Many, many of my female friends (none / 0) (#87)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:04:28 PM EST
    [whose antennae are usually fine-tuned for sexist remarks and behavior and who are zealous advocates for a woman's right to choose] are full-fledged Obama supporters, unquestioning.  I haven't figured it out yet.  And they have nothing to say about the media's treatment of Clinton.  [They don't read blogs.]  

    Parent
    They don't read blogs but, (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:09:45 PM EST
    they follow the intelligentsia.  The Nation, and all the alleged intellectuals, have given a blessing, they have anointed him.  This is what I find about the so-called well read.  They will read the New Yorker, the NY Times, NY book review and a few others to pick up what the party line is.  Then, not unlike many others, they will follow their leaders.  

    Parent
    This is why my father supports Obama. (5.00 / 3) (#116)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:21:25 PM EST
    He is a bit of an elitist snob, as sweet and liberal as he is. He reads WaPo and the NY Times and thinks he is super well-informed because of that.

    Plus, he's got some old-fashioned attitudes towards women; although he doesn't hate HRC, he doesn't like her much either. Trust me, it's not because of her policies compared to Obama's. It's all emotional. He buys into the "I'm a uniter" schtick and believes she is "polarizing."

    Of course, my AA stepmother is a HUGE Obama supporter and Hillary Hater; which might be the biggest reason of all!

    Parent

    Hmm, sounds like my ex (none / 0) (#146)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:40:28 PM EST
    These are women discuss other (none / 0) (#113)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:20:15 PM EST
    political issues in depth and with clarity.  Why turn off the brain here?  He can't be that charming.

    Parent
    Germaine Greer (none / 0) (#123)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:26:48 PM EST
    I just bought her  book Shakespeare's Wife.  Looking forward to a good read.  

    Parent
    A movement based on emotion (none / 0) (#93)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:09:38 PM EST
    and personality, discouraging logic and critical thinking.

    All Hail The Great Obama!

    Parent

    This Week (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by ruffian on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:54:40 PM EST
    The video of the roundtable from the May 11 'This Week" show is not working right now, or I would link to it, but there was a prime example of this. I posted about it the other day, so forgive the repeat. Cokie Roberts gave a vehement statement about what she called the "blatant sexism" in the media coverage of Clinton. Immediately Sam Donaldson responded and started out like he was going to say there was racism too, thought better of it, and changed the subject altogether.  No one else even remarked on what Roberts had said - it just disappeared right down the memory hole.

    I may not always agree with Roberts, but she is highly regarded, and also the daughter of two politicians.  I think her opinion on this subject should be given some weight, at least on her own weekly roundtable.  It was disgusting that they just ignored her.

    Mhmm. (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by masslib on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:36:55 PM EST
    I don't know if you've seen this (none / 0) (#165)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:56:52 PM EST
    article, but basically Cokie and Steve are summing up what we're probably going to see in November and why:

    Link

    (Speaking of Cokie)

    Parent

    Cokie is the daughter... (none / 0) (#184)
    by Dawn Davenport on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:40:31 PM EST
    of the late Hale Boggs, whose wife Lindy assumed his U.S. Rep. seat after Hale's death (disappearance) in 1972. Cokie probably witnessed firsthand her mother facing the political glass ceiling.

    Parent
    A large sprinkling of guilt dust... (5.00 / 5) (#83)
    by BevD on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:03:13 PM EST
     never fails to shut people up.  If you complain that some people in this country go to bed hungry at night, they'll tell you millions starve somewhere else.  If you complain that you can't afford health care, they'll tell you many countries don't have health care, if you complain that sexism still thrives in this country, they'll remind you that racism does too and that's worse.  Of course, they never say let's fix any of these problems, they just want you to shut up about yours.

    I think you're both right. (5.00 / 5) (#89)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:05:19 PM EST
    HRC is special because of her unprecedented power in our government. No woman has ever wielded so much influence so publicly.

    And yet, the hatred of her seems to result solely from the fact that she is a woman.

    As our favorite wiccan said (5.00 / 3) (#98)
    by pie on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:11:27 PM EST
    how dare she want a man's job?

    Parent
    Heh. Indeed. :-) (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:13:25 PM EST
    A woman's place...is in the White House! ;-)

    Parent
    I am reminded that her (5.00 / 4) (#114)
    by pie on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:20:19 PM EST
    problem started when she was First Lady, because she played a much larger governing role than others had.  I remember the complaints and criticisms then from people who were totally uncomfortable with that.  

    After Hillary we got Laura Bush and people bragged that she would not be that kind of presence.  Talk about two studies in contrasts.  What a mamby pamby job she's done.  Set women back years.

    It was easy for the morons to pick up where they left off when Hillary ran for president and actually made it to the top two.

    Parent

    "the fact that she is a woman" (5.00 / 3) (#108)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:16:06 PM EST
    it seems like more than that to me.
    I know her ambition (not a bad word in my book) is part of the problem but I cant think of another person, in politics or anywhere else, where a large segment of the poulation seems to think the proper response to the mention of her name is sneering eyerolling and 'god I just hate her".
    have you ever asked one of these people "why do you hate her?"
    I have.  you get a blank stare.  its clear no one every asked them that question before and it is something they never considered.


    Parent
    I have asked them... (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:26:31 PM EST
    they have no idea. And in fact, some of them are changing their minds because they are getting to know her better through this extended campaign.

    Hint: It's because she's a woman with power.

    Parent

    "a woman with power" (none / 0) (#133)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:31:26 PM EST
    I wonder if this is all or maybe that she is a woman from the left with power.
    do you think this stuff happened to Maggie Thatcher?
    I have no idea if it did or not.  its just a question.
    course that was another country.


    Parent
    I always found it suspicious that when it (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by Florida Resident on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:20:07 PM EST
    became obvious that none of the existing pre-candidates to the Democratic nomination could beat Hillary they went out and recruited another "Historic" candidate (one who had recently promised his constituents in Illinois that he would serve out his 6 years term) to race against her.  

    Parent
    I also... (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by Mrwirez on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:05:26 PM EST
    with my Union Brothers, will work as hard a Donkey, to knock Obama out, we do not need him as President. I will then wait 4 more years for McCain to implode the Republicans even further. I do not like the NEW racist, sexist "campaign of division" by Barry. My prediction, he wins 5 states...... Maybe.

    More of the same from the DNC. Lets pick the overall weakest candidate possible to show good faith to left activist and AA's and screw the woman. Lets alienate the women, the labor unions, and the poor.

    Exactly, I see Obama losing as imperative (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by Lisa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 08:12:09 PM EST
    and I've been a Democrat all my life.  What happened is so bad, we can't let them get away with it.  Or it just keeps getting worse from there.

    Personally, I go by the voice test.

    For nearly 8 years I have not been able to bear hearing Bush's voice - I'd practically trip over myself turning the TV down whenever he came on.  If I didn't get to the TV in time, I'd let go a steady stream of curses that would make my Irish grandmother proud to drown him out.

    I really wanted to have a president I could listen to this time.  I'm one of those corny patriotic American types - I really do love this country.

    But Obama's voice makes my skin crawl.  I've been diving for that remote, every time.

    Strangely enough, I can listen to McCain's voice just fine.  I surely do not agree with everything he says, but I can listen to him.

    I'm going to listen to my instincts.


    Parent

    I am sure you are right (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:10:08 PM EST
    that it could lead to wider acceptance of the use of such terms.
    I wonder if any of the female Hillary haters get this.

    Nothing has changed (5.00 / 3) (#97)
    by Foxx on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:11:07 PM EST
    All the lame responses to feminists exposing sexism are just the same as we heard in the 60s and 70s. I guess there are just certain basic strategies or places the mind goes when one doesn't want to face reality.

    The Grading of the Type of Oppression (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by feet on earth on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:17:51 PM EST
    or the "Hierarchy of Discrimination" is as a real problem in anti-discrimination work.

    It is a "divide and conquer" technique to maintain power and control of the fews. It is intended to keep minorities separate and fighting with each others to weaken the struggles to achieve equal                human rights for all.

    It is as old as the world.  Nothing new, but it is so sad that we have not learned how to overcome it.    

    It should be obvious (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by Edgar08 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:20:51 PM EST
    Rap artists, and Chris Rock and many others can use the N-word.  I can not.

    Tina Fey can use the B-word.

    Penn can not.


    anyone (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Edgar08 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:29:14 PM EST
    with .5 a brain would know that.

    Parent
    I think the poster makes a good point (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by vicndabx on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:40:28 PM EST
    what he seems to be saying is it's all about context.  We've become so PC that words just become words w/no context.  If we're going to have a real discussion about sexism, racism, and any other ism, the buzz words need to be discussed along w/the intent of the person using them.

    Parent
    I won't even (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Edgar08 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:09:03 PM EST
    try to use the n-word with good intentions.

    That said, Penn didn't have good intentions and anyone with .5 a brain would see that.

    Parent

    Sorry, I believe in the first amendment.... (none / 0) (#186)
    by jerry on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:43:54 PM EST
    I think it's wrong to have words that one group can use and another cannot.  Presumably I can use kike, or yid.  But I never would.

    Regardless of the free speech for all aspects, I especially think it's problematic to claim an artist is not allowed to use certain speech.

    Sign in a library: if these books don't offend you, we're not trying hard enough.

    Use of language, commenting on language and culture, that's what artists do.  That's what all of us should be aware of.

    Being afraid to use language, claiming only certain groups can use certain words, that way lies madness.  Policing language: I think it's one of the accurate, on target reasons why liberals are considered "elitists" and frankly, undemocratic.

    On the left we should stop ceding civil liberties over to the right.  Free speech issues, defending even ugly free speech, especially ugly free speech, was a liberal value.

    As a Jew growing up in the sixties and seventies, I was d!mned (d-click-mned) proud to learn the ACLU defended the NAZIs in Skokie.

    Parent

    It's not a free speech issue (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by Edgar08 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:09:21 PM EST
    It's a "I won't use words that piss people off" issue.

    No one's gonna put Penn in jail.

    They're just going to know that he's a big fat talentless classless sexist axxhole.  And then some will still choose to buy tickets to his jingoistic snake oil fake patriotic magic acts in vegas, and some will not.  I know he's used to working with a partner who stays silent.

    Others will not.

    That's free speech too! Don't tell me to shut up.

    Parent

    Penn Jillette (none / 0) (#191)
    by lilburro on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:12:47 PM EST
    is an artist?  

    Artists make art.  That joke wasn't art.  Is Imus an artist?  

    Parent

    Is Imus an artist? (none / 0) (#192)
    by jerry on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:28:52 PM EST
    Yeah, he probably could be considered an artist.

    No one is saying you can't say a joke wasn't funny, or a statement was ignorant or in poor taste.

    But I am saying you cannot say that certain words can only be used by certain kinds of people.  And that other people need permission if they are to use those words.

    E Plebmnista; norcom, forcom, perfectumum."

        - Yang version of We the People...

    "No - no! Only the eyes of a chief may see the E Plebmnista!"
    "This was not written for chiefs."

        - Yang Scholar and Kirk

    "These words, and the words that follow, were not just written for the Yangs, but for the Kohms as well!"
    "But the Kohms-"
    "They must apply to everyone, or they mean nothing! Do you understand?"
    "I... do not fully understand, one named Kirk... but the Holy Words will be obeyed; I swear it!"

        - Kirk and Cloud William

    If we don't believe in free speech for those we disagree with, we don't believe in free speech.

    Parent

    Words are defined by communities. (none / 0) (#195)
    by lilburro on Thu May 15, 2008 at 07:15:20 PM EST
    I don't think this is really a free speech issue.  It's more a love/hate/respect issue.  There are groups of people that say the "n" word.  One of those groups is AAs.  Another group is white supremacists.  These communities work against each other to make this word meaningful in a certain way.  I don't have a problem in the abstract free speech sense of a white supremacist using the n word.  But I will bring the fires of hell upon them for using it.  

    Nobody's trying to pass any laws here. Unless your issue is with the FEC, which is a ridiculous organization.

    I don't really consider Imus an artist.  However, if your point is that people should be able to use words to have an effect, I would agree with that.  But if Imus tried to have that "effect" regularly, without respect to his black female listeners, you would question its artistic worth.  In the onslaught of sexism this campaign, Jillette's joke isn't trying to be ironic; it's latching onto the stereotypes and smears of successful women, in particular Hillary Clinton.

    It's about being sensitive to words that have never really hurt YOU, and knowing that they have hurt others.

    Parent

    You're an artist, you're not an artist, you're an (none / 0) (#196)
    by jerry on Thu May 15, 2008 at 07:25:13 PM EST
    artist, you're an artist, you're not an artist.

    you're a journalist, you're a journalist, you're not a journalist.

    Jew, Jew, Not Jew, Not Jew, Jew, Not Jew.

    Woman, woman, woman, not woman, not woman,

    person of color, person of color, not a person of color, not a person of color, not a person of color, person of color

    fat, not fat, not fat, fat, fat, fat, not fat.

    Too many rules.  I propose a simpler rule.

    Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names have never hurt me.

    Parent

    People organize around words. (none / 0) (#197)
    by lilburro on Thu May 15, 2008 at 07:29:06 PM EST
    Noone would say I'm not a woman.  And thus follows the baggage depending on my "behavior."

    Parent
    I wholeheartedly agree with Ms Cocco (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:21:42 PM EST
    People who think that resorting to sexism is any way at all to advance progressive principles haven't quite got the message themselves. I do agree with this part of what Adam Serwer said though: "I see racism and sexism as intertwined if not interdependent." We need to tackle both because they're part of the same reactionary mode. He would have been ahead if he'd just left it at that.

    I guess what bugs the cr@p out of me (5.00 / 9) (#118)
    by Anne on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:22:21 PM EST
    is that with Obama raising race as an issue in order to cut Clinton out of the black vote, and with the helpful comments of people like Jeremiah Wright, it's gotten so that one cannot express legitimate concerns about Obama without getting the "you just don't like him because he's black" reaction from too many people.  It's become a case of "You're white - you don't like ___ about Obama's policies/positions/framing - presto! - you're a racist."  It completely cuts out substantive discussion on the issues.

    And because Hillary had the bad judgment to be born female, again, I get the "you just like her because she's one of you," regardless of how many reasoned and substantive arguments I make.

    So many of us have worked so hard to eliminate prejudice from our words, our deeds, our thought processes, have taught our children that we are all truly equal, have objected to racist jokes and sexist jokes, had reached the point where we felt as color- and gender-blind as we could possibly be that to now be accused of something I am not is just offensive.  And to know that I am accused of it in order to benefit someone's race for the presidency is even worse.

    I feel used in ways that I have not felt - to this degree - for a long, long time.

    And where do I direct that resentment and anger and disgust - at the candidate who preaches unity, and transcending our differences.

    I must remember to check and see if "transcend" now means "use people's differences to get ahead - make no apologies for the bodies you leave in your path."

    Really just very upsetting.  And not seeing anything that makes me think there is any regret for continuing to do it.

    Hey, madamab. (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Sweet Sue on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:28:39 PM EST
    Hey, madamab. I always read your blog, Oooh, nuance, and enjoy it very much. I'd comment but I find Google run comment sections very difficult to navigate for some reason.
    But I do read you every day. I always liked your comments at (sigh) Eschaton and, now, in the new blogosphere. Keep it up!

    Thanks, Sweet Sue! (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:41:27 PM EST
    I really, really appreciate that. :-)

    Parent
    I just went over there... (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by Exeter on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:48:06 PM EST
    It's awesome!  The Obama meet America sketch was hilarious!  I hate the phrase LOL... so COL (chuckled out loud ;)

    Parent
    I didn't know you had a blog. (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by Teresa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:52:32 PM EST
    Link? I'd like to read it.

    Parent
    ultimate sexism (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by nellre on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:32:21 PM EST
    The fact that, for the most part, any attempt to discuss sexism is laughed at is belittling. It's a shutter upper.
    It is the ultimate sexism.

    Obama has provided cover for sexism (5.00 / 5) (#150)
    by Exeter on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:41:33 PM EST
    This hasn't been a race between a woman and a man, it's been a race between a white and and African American.

    Under the guise of protecting Obama from racism or protecting the first serious Black candidate from the evil no-holds-barred Clintons, instead of being more sensitive sexist coverage, the media and the blogs have actually gotten much worse as the campaign has progressed.

    Yes, the emails circulating on the internet about Obama being a Muslim were ugly and obviously wrong, but the media promptly went after it and defended Obama with a vengeance.  There has been equally devastating emails about Hillary being a lesbian and other subjects that do not deserve repeating. One of the major tabloids even ran a front pate headline of "Hillary's Secret Lesbian Lover" that everyone that bought groceries two weeks ago saw as they went through the check-out line.  Media response... zilch.

    And, as mentioned previously, the slightest mention of race by Clinton or any other their surrogates instantly generates charges of racism by the Obama camp that dutifully gets echoed by the media. But Obama can personally degrade Clinton with sexist comments and actions and its crickets from the media.

    Most memorable was Obama comparison of Clinton with a skittish domestic cat. What if Clinton had compared Obama to an animal that is often used as a slur to African Americans? Is there any doubt she would have to drop out?

    I agree... (none / 0) (#182)
    by Exeter on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:30:58 PM EST
    It's absurd that Muslims or lesbians have to be dragged through the mud like this.

    Part of it is that there is a serious post 9/11 sting and many people continue to believe that terrorists = Muslims. And, this campaign has unfortunately made that conception worse. But, at least with that, there is at least a plausible explanation for WHY people think he may be Muslim or was once Muslim. There is no plausible explanation for why people think that she is a lesbian, other than that she is tough.

    Parent

    agree (none / 0) (#207)
    by LCaution on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:03:47 PM EST
    It bothered me that it never, apparently, occurred to either Obama or Hillary to say that there would be nothing wrong if a Muslim were running for President, that the Constitution absolutely forbids any religious test for the office.

    A missed opportunity for both.

    Parent

    Nothing trumps anything (5.00 / 3) (#152)
    by Donna Darko on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:43:02 PM EST
    Sexism is more acceptable. That's the point. Neither is worse. There's the perception racism is worse because it affects men. Sexism mostly affects women.  Think of the fact violence against women kills more people each year than war. Shouldn't violence against women i.e. the war against women get more headlines than wars?

    Steinem and Morgan was criticized for insinuating gender trumped race but there's no criticism of the media, blogs and most people for implicitly saying race trumps gender.

    Early in the primary season (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:08:13 PM EST
    Pollster Matthew Dowd was on Bill Maher (back on Feb 8 when I could still watch the show).

    His quote:

    "It's actually easier for an African American to get elected in this country than a woman, president, actually." - Matt Dowd

    Amazing that a pollster would say this so matter-of-factly.  Makes you think that maybe it's true? ;-)

    The Prospect, The Nation, and Mother Jones... (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by AX10 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 07:02:49 PM EST
    have latched onto the idea that Obama is some great "progressive".  They are nothing more than propaganda rags.

    I'm not voting for Obama (5.00 / 3) (#200)
    by Lisa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 07:58:02 PM EST
    I hope at least one of these good leftie blogs will either have an editorial neutral stance or else entertain those of us who are either not voting or voting for McCain or Third Party in protest.

    This is actually a really good opportunity for a site to make an important statement.  The "Obama is good, McCain is bad" lefty sites will be dime a dozen.  But the rest of us have some pretty historic and valid points to make.

    There are a lot of good women (and men) like me who are mad as hell and quite simply not going to take it anymore.  Where do we go?  

    I'm not a Republican and never will be.  But I'm actually looking forward to the poetic justice of seeing Obama lose.  And responsibility squarely in the laps of Kennedy and all the other misogynists.

    I'm still the same person I always was, it's the party that has changed.  I have considered myself a Democrat since watching the Watergate hearings as a kid, and have voted, donated, and volunteered for them ever since.

    But I draw the line here.  I must.  

    Speaking of Race BTD (none / 0) (#17)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:29:24 PM EST
    Take a look at the state by state AA vote.   fascinating that Massachussets, the state of the other Axelrod protege, the AA vote was 37%.  Makes ya think.  

    The margin of Obama's win among AA's. (none / 0) (#39)
    by masslib on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:40:57 PM EST
    Not the AA vote.  There are not that many african american's in MA.  

    Parent
    Sorry (none / 0) (#42)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:43:24 PM EST
    compare to other states where his margins were in the 50's all the way to 90's.  I think it's telling.  

    Parent
    Yeah, me too. Living as I do with the last (none / 0) (#69)
    by masslib on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:55:58 PM EST
    Axelrod candidate.

    Parent
    Rove style victories (none / 0) (#79)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:01:47 PM EST
    You win, yet you have not built anything.  Look at the RNC, all those victories and no real party left.  

    Parent
    Well I may OT but come the GE if Obama is the (none / 0) (#82)
    by Florida Resident on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:03:02 PM EST
    Candidate (A probability) we will get a lot or racist ads and you will see a lot of complaining in the Media and from the leadership and even from McBush.  

    No foul language (none / 0) (#122)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:26:39 PM EST
    This is a law blog and foul language messes with the filtering software.  Just use symbols.. b!tch etc.

    Sorry about that. (none / 0) (#180)
    by jerry on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:27:18 PM EST
    Going back to my anthro courses, then does that "!" mean I have to make a Kung "click?"

    Is it White bi-click-tch month?

    Parent

    The difference between sexism and racism (none / 0) (#131)
    by sancho on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:30:44 PM EST
    inheres in the way in which sexism is basically fixed (it is pretty much always hatred, contempt, or just dismissal of women), whereas racism (though, sadly, historically pervasive, changes its subject categories over time and by culture). We have seen in the presidential elections of the past 60 years a sequence of "historic" developments along moving racial, ethnic and religious barriers (Catholic, Jewish, black, for instance), but we have not really seen the same progressive movement along gender lines. Hilary Clinton's campaign has been remarkable to me in that has become a lightning rod that has allowed otherwise "reasonable" people to express a vicious sexism that has been very distressing. Marie's column was great and taking its claims and implications seriously clearly does NOT in any way involve dismissing the pervasiveness both old and indeed new forms of racism and prejudice.

    I'm not sure anti-Catholicism can be called racism (none / 0) (#139)
    by Sweet Sue on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:35:37 PM EST
    Good nuanced point, sancho, but hasn't racism based on light skin color equals good and dark skin equals bad been in play for thousands of years?
    Of course, our dark skinned sisters bear the double burden.

    You may be right, and certainly now, (none / 0) (#159)
    by sancho on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:50:20 PM EST
    but I guess my larger point--and it is not entirely a happy one--is that I am much more optimistic about the structural possibility of progress on racism than I am right now on sexism. But, maybe I should just feel hopeless about both...

    Parent
    On the other hand (none / 0) (#170)
    by DJ on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:07:38 PM EST
    did you see how many party leaders came out to defend Obama against the horrible thing Bush implied in his speech?  I mean really, it is crazy how fast they come out to defend him.

    The irony is (none / 0) (#176)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:17:15 PM EST
    they're likely using a modification of the "War Room" tactic devised by Hillary

    Link

    Parent

    You misunderstand (none / 0) (#179)
    by DJ on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:25:03 PM EST
    or perhaps I was not clear.  My point is no one stood up when Hillary was being attacked unfairly.  But everyone jumps up to defend Obama.  

    Parent
    Well, given the way thDemocratic establishment (none / 0) (#181)
    by esmense on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:30:13 PM EST
    has behaved during this primary season, it will be harder for the media in future to associate liberalism or "progressives" with feminism, the economic concerns of women and families, etc., or make the hated argument that the Democratic party is "the mommy" party. Which I think has been the point of their behavior. There seems to a hope that the solution to the party's now long standing difficulty with men (attracting male voters) is to disassociate it from the women who have kept the party viable over the last few decades. Sort of a "let's get back the men by chasing away the women" strategy.

    What I think they are really going to end up with is a party that has done nothing to address its real problems with men, while offering no especially distinctive difference between it and the Republican party for women.  

    Yes. Feminists no longer welcome by Dems (5.00 / 2) (#204)
    by Cream City on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:34:28 PM EST
    is the clear message.  Not that they ever were welcomed with open arms by Dem men in leadership --  but women were welcome, and some were feminists and voters, too, so that was okay.

    Now it is clear to me that women are okay, but only because they're voters, and feminists are not welcome because they want something for their vote.  They got the party platform to include women's rights, but now they want the party to stand behind it -- rather than continue to work for the Caseys and Stricklands and others who do not support the party platform.

    So that plank of the platform is not solid, is only for show, and soon will be gone for good -- that is clear to me.  I don't want to wait around for that, so I'm no longer a Dem.  And it feels a lot better to not be supporting a party that does not support me and all women and our rights.

    Parent

    Good point (none / 0) (#206)
    by Jane in CA on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:34:54 PM EST
    My 83 year old father was terribly racist and even more misogynistic when he was younger.  My brother and I have both had to tell him -- a decade apart -- that he was not welcome in our homes, or around our children if he could not forego the use of derogatory racial terms.  Yet, we never applied the same standards toward his hostility toward women.  

    I've only recently started questioning why we called him out so strongly on his racism, but let his misogynistic comments go (largely) unchallenged ...