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NC Sample Ballots: Will The Left Blogs Get To the Bottom Of This One?

Illegally marked sample ballots for Obama in North Carolina.

For the record, Obama has nothing to do with it imo. Just making a point about double standards and hypocrisy. Big question though - will TPM refer to the Winston Salem Black PAC as the "Illegal Ballots Obama supporting PAC?" (TPM referred to the Women's Voices organization as the "robocalling Clinton group," as if that was their main business.)

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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    Women voters group (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:37:35 PM EST
    All I know is that I and some friends...are now donors to the group that we did not know about before to get the women's vote out.  Thanks blogger boiz.  So, what they made a mistake, at least they are doing something.  People who do nothing never make mistakes and have no track records.  

    And you know what else (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:41:45 PM EST
    The women's voter scandal and the one today brought forth another distinction between Hillary and Obama supporters:

    How many phony scandals have Hillary supporters attempted to promote?

    And how many phony scandals have Obama supporters tried to promote?

    Quite a nice distinction between us, isn't it?

    Parent

    Confusion (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:53:16 PM EST
    the real "point" to this story is that the ballot is probably "confusing" some voters, who think they can just hand it in and have their vote registered for Obama.

    And its doubtless creating "extra work" for election officials.

    In other words, the whole thing is stupid.  Some Obama supporters screwed up, but no one in their right mind should care about this.

    Wow! (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:56:50 PM EST
    Some Obama supporters screwed up, but no one in their right mind should care about this.

    That's a novel idea -- when some supporters screw up no one in their right mind should care about it!  Great idea!  Have you taken it to Daily Kos?  Because, you know, it will probably shut them down.

    Parent

    Are the left blogs capable of getting (5.00 / 7) (#31)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:53:54 PM EST
    to the bottom of anything anymore?

    First they draw conclusions under the principle that anyone named Clinton, anyone who has ever known a Clinton and everyone who may have ever expressed a kind word for a Clinton is "evil" and then they seek out, select and omit "facts" that fit their narrative.

    They're not aiming for "reality-based" narrtaives anymore.  Why in the world would I trust this crowd to get to the bottom of anything.

    If I lost my car keys, they'd be screaming that Clinton stole them.

    LB: You lost your keys?!

    Me: Yeah, I know they are around here somewhere.  I just can't remember where they are.

    LB: Hillary Clinton lives in DC while Congress is in session right?

    Me: Yeah, so what?  I think I came in from the store...

    LB: Well, she does live in the same town and you do and Congress IS in session right?

    Me: Yeah, sure so what's your point.  I really hope the puppy didn't snatch them.  Can you look under that sofa for me please?

    LB: The thing is that I don't think we have to look under the sofa.  I'm sure the puppy wouldn't have done that sort of thing.  Clinton on the other hand, she's probably trying to make it so that you can't drive to the polls.

    Me: Whaa?  Um I can walk to the polling station if I need to that would be stupid.  Trust me the puppy is snatching lovely chew toys left and right.  It happens all the time.

    LB:  How could you say something so HORRIBLE about your own puppy when you know how evil and calculating Clinton is!!!  You MUST support Clinton and hate your puppy?!

    Me: No I don't hate my puppy.  These things happen with puppies...  UGH.  Can you please leave so I can find my keys and if you must you can call the Clinton campaign and ask them where Clinton is today.  I'll bet she's not even in town.

    LB:  Doesn't matter if she is in town or not.  She could have sent Bill or maybe one of the Congressmen who live in the area.  It is definitely a voter suppression tactic.

    Me: Yeah, well we already voted here and the general election is months away. I don't think they're suppressing my vote.  Really, please leave.  This is really irritating and you're kind of scaring me with your obsession with Clinton.  Take care and try not to get sued for slander or arrested by the Secret Service.

    LB: Blah, blah, blah, Clinton evil, blah, blah.

    Me: Yeah, right okay.  I'm in a hurry.  Bye.

    Door shuts.  Puppy throws up bits of plastic that looks like pieces of the keys...  Find paper towels and other set of keys.

    [lambert applauds inclusiveheart's brilliance] (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by lambert on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:56:57 PM EST
    I don't think you mentioned the Clintonian Mind Control™ rays, though, did you? The rays Hillary beams from Mount Evil?

    Parent
    I have ray deflectors in my front yard (none / 0) (#58)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:12:47 PM EST
    to ward off all politicians' undue influence. LOL

    Parent
    The silly season (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by eleanora on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:03:21 PM EST
    seems to be running from March-June this year. I sure hope we have another plan for fall, because I'm a lifelong Dem and even I'm sick of us. Constantly poufing up a souffle of outrage-du-jour seems so Republican.

    "Even I'm sick of us" (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Cream City on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:15:12 PM EST
    cracked me up.  Every day, I open this blog ready to be amazed at yet new inanities perpetrated by other allegedly liberal blogs.  I so appreciate that this one spares me going to those and giving them hits.

    But I can't even handle looking at this blog in the morning until I have been fortified with some serious black coffee.  Usually two cups' worth.

    Parent

    I was going (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:31:24 PM EST
    to make a comment about how disgusting black coffee is (YICK! gotta have milk in mine) and I wasn't sure how to say it without someone thinking I was intending a double meaning.

    How crazy is this election season?

    Parent

    The Progressive Blogs (none / 0) (#64)
    by AnninCA on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:50:20 AM EST
    really, really have opened my eyes.  I'm grateful that I got involved this year so I now have a better perspective.  I was so completely baffled at first.  I couldn't understand how a so-called progressive blog could perpetuate rumors and slant stories against a Democrat so freely.

    I really, really didn't get it.

    The talk from the bloggers was worse than most Republican talk.

    Same strident tone.  Same lack of facts.  Same conspiracy theories running throughout.  Same reliance upon old illusions created years ago that have no bearing in actual reality or actions by the candidate.  

    I was shocked.

    Today I am in agreement with more conservative analysts who say that this trait has actually been visible to others about the "progressive voices" over the years.  I'm afraid I just wasn't paying attention until they turned it on MY candidate.  *haha

    So it's been an eye-opener.

    Parent

    Old Soviet Union election vote: (5.00 / 0) (#52)
    by riddlerandy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:23:44 PM EST
    Voter walks into the polling place in Leningrad to cast his vote.  The KGB officer hands the voter his sealed ballot envelope with his voted ballot already inside.  

    The voter begins to open the envelope and the KGB officer asks what he is doing.  The voter says that he is curious to find out how he voted.

    The KGB officer says that that is against the law, it would violate the secret ballot statute.  

    (Yes, I am keeping my day job)

    Machine Democrats only have themselves to blame (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Ellie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:55:18 PM EST
    Should stunts like this push Obama through as our "choice" for the presidential ticket and -- one woman's prediction -- he fails miserably and takes the party down with him.

    Pre-blaming Sen. Clinton and whining that her supporters didn't play ball won't cut it.

    Pre- the Obama madness there was at least some substantial basis to decry the lazy media argument that Dems were half responsible for every egregious right wing d0uchebaggery, when automatically slapping "half" the responsibility on uninvolved individual Dems or the party was ludicrous on its face.

    That's just another mountain of accumulated cred that's been burned up in the push to transfuse Obama's weak campaign with juice.

    What a gift of a storyline these power-crazed kingmaking lunatics have given the Rethuggernaut: the racist Clintons tanked the Obama campaign because (the b!tch) didn't fold and turn over HER juice to the cause.

    (Loophole in the reasoning that the Nu Roolerz continue to fail to appreciate: you just don't pull a lever and millions of glassy eyed voters obey their particular overlord, then go home to await donation demands.)

    Mike Gravel (none / 0) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:20:01 PM EST
    is still running?
    who knew?


    Heh, indeed (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:22:09 PM EST
    PA really only had the two, which was nice.

    Parent
    Illegal??? (none / 0) (#2)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:21:44 PM EST
    I see at the bottom it says"Paid for by the Winston-Salem Black Political Action Committee." Granted, it looks more than a little official, but I know that when I go to vote in person, I get stuff like that shoved in my face.

    If it's illegal, it seems barely so. I have no objection, especially considering that there aren't really going to be that many people going into the booth who don't know how they're voting at the top of the ticket, and even fewer will take the advice of some random flyer.

    Molehill IMO.

    You have great eyesight! (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:27:21 PM EST
    I see at the bottom it says...

    Obviously, others need stronger glasses.

    Parent

    It Appears to Violate NC Law (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by BDB on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:27:37 PM EST
    by not being marked "sample ballot".

    Parent
    Fair enough, but I mean, jeez (none / 0) (#9)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:30:37 PM EST
    You'd have to be born yesterday to think that you could be FORCED to vote one way or another.

    I guess this doesn't seem very different from the perfectly legal lit that's distributed in every election.

    Parent

    Not so much forced (none / 0) (#14)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:34:29 PM EST
    as influenced.

    Let's face it, some people don't pick a candidate until they're in the freaking voting booth.

    Parent

    Doesn't Matter, It Is Illegal To Hand These (none / 0) (#24)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:46:57 PM EST
    out if they are not marked "sample ballot".  Will obama step up and say this should be looked into?
    Taking bets right now...I say no.

    Parent
    I don't really care (none / 0) (#25)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:47:41 PM EST
    though I get the point about hypocrisy.

    Parent
    That is the only point (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:51:17 PM EST
    P.T. Barnum (none / 0) (#60)
    by cpinva on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:48:48 PM EST
    Never underestimate (none / 0) (#37)
    by magisterludi on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:03:18 PM EST
     the "born yesterday" faction of the American voting public.

    Two terms for GWB. I rest my case.

    Parent

    I think you are right (none / 0) (#26)
    by riddlerandy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:50:47 PM EST
    anyone know if it is the same size as the official ballot?  (Not that the average voter would know)

    Parent
    Of course it's a molehill (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:40:22 PM EST
    That's not the point, or rather there wouldn't be a point if the people in question considered the other thing a molehill too and didn't try to pin it on the Clinton campaign.

    The point is not to say we must live in a world where these things don't happen, although it's fair to point out that the world would be better off if these things didn't happen, and the world would be better off if Registration drives (even incompetent ones) weren't confused with candidate preference too!


    Parent

    Exactly (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:43:03 PM EST
    This is a nonstory imo.

    Parent
    Probably a non-story either way, (none / 0) (#43)
    by oculus on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:06:44 PM EST
    but I was amused by this sentence:  
    For the record, Obama has nothing to do with it imo.


    Parent
    A front page non-story. n/t (none / 0) (#44)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:09:05 PM EST
    The FP story here (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:22:47 PM EST
    is the demise of the Left blogs as a reality based source.

    Parent
    Totally agree (none / 0) (#65)
    by AnninCA on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:53:37 AM EST
    and it's a basic reason.  Any news source that constantly prints rumors that have not been validated obviously has no interest in credibility as a source.

    Once the excitement dies down from the primaries, those blogs will wither.  They chose to publish garbage for an agenda.  Therefore, no credibility.

    Parent

    What if it said: Paid for by Indiana White PAC (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by LHinSeattle on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:41:06 PM EST
    and was marked "Clinton" as sample. Imagine the uproar. Even if it said "sample," which it should ethically as well as legally.

    Talk about double standards....

    Parent

    No smaller than the robocalling molehill. (none / 0) (#46)
    by lyzurgyk on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:09:50 PM EST
    Lets see how Josh Marshall covers it.   Will Atrios opine that "this looks bad"?

    Parent
    Paid for by the Winston-Salem Black PAC ... (none / 0) (#53)
    by lyzurgyk on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:24:45 PM EST
    ... doesn't equal sample ballot.

    These days there's advertising everywhere!

    I'm not sure I agree that this is a molehill.   Maybe more of a beaver dam.

    Parent

    There are candidates down ballot (none / 0) (#63)
    by kateNC on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:13:37 PM EST
    Which are important to  those of us in NC. Not everything is presidential. What does the sample ballot have checked for those  races? We are selecting among multiple candidates for most offices.

    This  is appalling.

    Parent

    Makes voting so much easier! (none / 0) (#4)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:25:08 PM EST
    Frank says in his post that people were actually trying to hand in the ballots thinking they were real.  

    I've seen sample ballots.  I've never see sample ballots that also included candidate preference.  Democracy in action?  What's next? Purple fingers?

    Hope we get all these little, um, quirks worked out before November.  :- )


    Really? (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:26:03 PM EST
    Never voted in a city, I take it.

    The "Official Sample Ballot" is a tradition.

    Parent

    For Example (none / 0) (#6)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:27:19 PM EST
    Seriously? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Emma on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:32:00 PM EST
    That doesn't look anything like a sample ballot to me.  It looks like an ad for Wendell Wilkie.  When did he run, again?

    That sample ballot in NC -- don't know if it's illegal or a "big deal" or not.  But I don't think that was BTD's point, anyway.

    Parent

    Got any recent examples? (none / 0) (#11)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:32:28 PM EST
    :-)

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#12)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:34:04 PM EST
    I've thrown more away than I've kept. How about this.

    Parent
    Sorry. I think (none / 0) (#16)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:38:27 PM EST
    this just makes it easier for low-info voters.

    "Just tell me who to vote for."

    I guess I have a problem with that concept. I know.  I know.  It is what it is.

    Parent

    It's how political machines work (none / 0) (#20)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:41:45 PM EST
    do you know why we have statewide elected Dems in Pennsylvania? Because the Philly Democratic party, on election day, prints hundreds of thousands of ballots like these and distributes them in mailboxes and at polling places. That, and straight ticket voting--which we still have, than god.

    If only "informed" voters were allowed to vote, we'd have a problem.

    Parent

    I get that part. (none / 0) (#23)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:45:21 PM EST
    Sadly.

    Parent
    Does PA use paper ballots or machines? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Joan in VA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:58:59 PM EST
    Philly uses electronic (none / 0) (#45)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:09:24 PM EST
    the rest of the state varies.

    Parent
    Looking at the statutes (none / 0) (#13)
    by Addison on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:34:05 PM EST
    Here's the first statute governing sample ballots that MyDD posts:

    County Board to Produce and Distribute Sample Ballots. - The county board of elections shall produce sample ballots, in all the necessary ballot styles of the official ballot, for every election to be held in the county. The sample ballots shall be given an appearance that clearly distinguishes them from official ballots. The county board shall distribute sample ballots to the chief judge of every precinct in which the election is to be conducted. The chief judge shall post a sample ballot in the voting place and may use it for instructional purposes. The county board of elections may use the sample ballot for other informational

    This is only governing the state-produced sample ballots that they are mandated to produce. It says nothing about the state being the ONLY one allowed to make sample ballots (NGOs aren't banned from producing them), nor does it give guidelines on non-state produced sample ballots. In other words, this statute is completely irrelevant. Why did MyDD post it?

    The second statute:

    Document Resembling an Official Ballot to Contain Disclaimer. - No person other than a board of elections shall produce or disseminate a document substantially resembling an official ballot unless the document contains on its face a prominent statement that the document was not produced by a board of elections and is not an official ballot.

    Ok, this one is actually relevant. The sample ballot -- which clearly substantially resembles the official ballot, DOES contain a disclaimer of sorts that it was not produced by a board of elections. Look at the bottom, it says, "Paid for by the Winston-Salem Black Political Action Committee." Now, the question becomes does that necessarily imply to the recipient that it was not produced by a board of elections. I think it reasonably does. However, there's an "and" (not and "or") in the statute, and I see no unambiguous indication that it's not an official ballot. While its being paid for by the PAC does reasonably indicate that it wasn't produced by the board of elections, I don't know that it reasonable indicates that it's not an official ballot. There may be some disagreement on that.

    After all that let me say that I'm not concerned at all about "illegal" sample ballots.

    Well... (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:43:43 PM EST
    There may be some disagreement on that.

    since people tried to hand it in, I guess they thought it was official.

    It isn't any more nefarious though than the women's group that is working to register voters.

    Let's save our outrage for actual voter disenfranchisement.

    Parent

    And how could it be constitutional (none / 0) (#17)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:39:51 PM EST
    to prevent the production and distribution of unofficial sample ballots?

    Parent
    How about unoffical $20 bills? (none / 0) (#28)
    by riddlerandy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:51:32 PM EST
    Ever played monopoly? (none / 0) (#32)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:56:41 PM EST
    This is more like those unofficial "checks" sweepstakes send in the mail.

    Parent
    Hmmm... (none / 0) (#61)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:16:40 PM EST
    Monopoly money doesn't even look like actual bills. The checks tend to have some sort of "Not a real check" written on them...

    Parent
    If the ballots. . . (none / 0) (#29)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:53:05 PM EST
    are part of a scheme to improperly influence an election, I assume they'd be covered under some constitutionally acceptable laws.

    Parent
    Improperly expressing an opinion? (none / 0) (#34)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:58:04 PM EST
    Or do you also think that this is ballot forgery or something?

    Parent
    Well, I'm going to get in (none / 0) (#36)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:01:43 PM EST
    a lot of trouble for saying this, but what the heck.

    If one wants to believe there's something improper about these ballots then it's as likely they're improper in favor of Clinton.  Why?  If some voters -- new voters -- believe that they simply have to hand this ballot in to vote for Obama, the effectively lose their votes.

    Of course, you can argue the other way as well.

    To ensure that there's no confusion, obviously the ballots should be prominently marked "Sample Ballot" and a message should be included reminding people to vote for real.

    Parent

    Makes Sense to Me (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by santarita on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:22:17 PM EST
    Actually, I found another ingenious way to blame Clinton for this:

    The Clinton Campaign obviously put the PAC up to printing illegal sample ballots as a way of deflecting media attention from all of the various illegal activities that she and her surrogates are engaged in.

    And I would bet that further investigation of that particular PAC will reveal that a Clinton supporter once donated $10.00 to the PAC and that someone on the office staff is married to someone who voted for Bill Clinton AND that person's brother made robocalls for Clinton.  

    Or could the explanation possibly be the undercapitalized groups don't always consult with legal staff before acting?

    Parent

    sample ballots usually are clearly marked (none / 0) (#48)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:13:13 PM EST
    This one is a little conservative with its disclosure. I guess that's bad.

    Your interpretation is funny--and now I expect it to show up you know where.

    Parent

    You are really off on this (none / 0) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:04:04 PM EST
    Robocalls can be illegal too.

    Free speech can be punished when it is illegal.

    Consider criminal fraud laws.

    Parent

    Fair enough (none / 0) (#47)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:11:31 PM EST
    I've just seen much worse than this, and I have a hard time seeing what the big deal is.

    Obviously confusing people in an election is bad, but it's hard for me to see how this would do that.

    Parent

    Doesn't meet the "not an official (none / 0) (#41)
    by Joan in VA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:04:30 PM EST
    ballot" test. Nor does there seem to be a "prominent" disclaimer re: not produced by BoE. IMO.

    Parent
    As you say, it requires a prominent (none / 0) (#42)
    by Cream City on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:05:27 PM EST
    statement that it is not a sample ballot, and the statement on it is so not prominent that it obviously was missed, since many voters thought it was the ballot and tried to hand it in as such.

    We do sample ballots all the time, as required, in my state -- prominently marked "sample ballot" in huge letters angled across the ballot (but in a screened ink so that the ballot still can be read).

    But they
    never can have a box already marked.  Then they are not sample ballots; they are sample votes.

    So in my state, this would be cause for a complaint to the elections board, and it would result in a fine, at the least.  And since my state's election board's news release -- not a complaint, not a fine, no action taken, etc. -- was used as evidence against the Women's Voices, Women's Vote by many an Obama blog. . . .

    I call out those bloggers and their commenters, one and all, as hypocrites unless and until they deal with this so-called sample ballot in exactly similar fashion.  So I want to see outcries of outrage, I want to see smears of Obama as clearly behind it, etc.

    Parent

    Right now (none / 0) (#40)
    by cygnus on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:04:18 PM EST
    Obama is the official "black" candidate, at least as far The Nation and their blogospheric counterparts are concerned.  As long as this is the case, the left won't seriously question anything that happens. (AA voters, however, from my experience, are extremely sharp, and won't hesitate to split from Obama if he looks like he can't deliver.)

    This video points to that (none / 0) (#51)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:23:40 PM EST
    The way Obama disowned Jeremiah Wright after so many had stuck up for him in a very public way, may be causing some turbulence among African Americans.  Not much, but some.  The following video does a good job illustrating the problem:

    http://tinyurl.com/67cn7p

    Parent

    Simple answers to simple questions (none / 0) (#56)
    by lambert on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:41:51 PM EST
    will TPM refer to the Winston Salem Black PAC as the "Illegal Ballots Obama supporting PAC?"

    No.