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House Leadership: Gas Tax Holiday DOA

Jonathan Singer writes:

According to The Hill's Jared Allen and Jackie Kucinich, the House leadership, most members of which have not endorsed in the presidential race, are calling the [gas tax holiday] plan "DOA", or dead on arrival. Specifically, both Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer have spoken on the record as to their opposition to such a move.

While this is good imo (Jeralyn favors the gas tax holiday), it is funny how they can not declare FISA telco immunity DOA or how they could never declare Iraq funding without a date certain DOA. I have little respect for the leadership of Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer.

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  • Display: Sort:
    "leadership" LOL n/t (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by DJ on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:34:50 PM EST


    Gas tax relief would have been little help, but (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Exeter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:35:15 PM EST
    it would have been some help--especially to the poor and truckers, who are hit very, very, very hard.

    Everybody repeat after me (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:37:14 PM EST
    A "tax holiday" would not lower prices because the oil companies would just raise the prices back to market rate and pocket the savings.  So no, it would  likely not even be "some help" to the poor and truckers and would be considerable help to Exxon, Chevron, etc.

    Parent
    it would likely not even be "some help" (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:42:23 PM EST
    fact is
    you dont know that and I doubt you have to chose between food and gas.

    Parent
    Don't trust me (1.00 / 0) (#15)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:46:11 PM EST
    Trust just about every expert out there who says the same thing.  Do you think McCain proposed this because he wants to help people who have to choose between food and gas?  Just because the Clinton campaign disagrees with all the experts (and who does that remind you of) doesn't make it true.

    Parent
    I suppose Nancy should (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:47:59 PM EST
    come out against Obama's healthcare policy then too. Since every expert I've heard from on the subject tells me that there is no doing universal healthcare without mandates. But I hear nothing of the sort from our leadership on that particular front.

    Parent
    Hmmm (none / 0) (#23)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:52:13 PM EST
    I bet if Obama were stupid enough to introduce his Health Care proposal in the Senate next week and then declare everyone was either with him or with the big health care/pharma/insurance industry and needed to pick sides, you might see some of the same "DOA" reactions from legislators.  You might also see some superdelegates get a little testy at that sort of divisive rhetoric.

    Good thing he won't be silly enough to grandstand like that.

    Parent

    Oh no. (none / 0) (#29)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:56:37 PM EST
    Obama is just stupid enough to put this healthcare proposal up as his platform as President of the United States.  And you'd see them all capitulating to him the exact way they do now. The same way the also now see how Reagan was a great guy and how everything till now was Bill's fault.  You'd see that for sure.   Why isn't Nancy saying in her power position in the House that we need universal healthcare and Obama's plan is crap-ola as per the experts in the field?  I guess we wouldn't want her to hurt her candidate, now would we?

    Parent
    So why do you think (none / 0) (#32)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:58:33 PM EST
    So why do you think Nancy isn't for Hillary?

    Parent
    history (none / 0) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:00:05 PM EST
    use the google

    Parent
    I understand what you mean (none / 0) (#41)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:02:28 PM EST
    but when given the choice between Obama and Hillary, why do you suppose she might not be for Hillary?

    Parent
    Because she knows (none / 0) (#43)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:03:12 PM EST
    she'll hold more power with Obama at the top. Because she didn't like that she told Hillary not to go to China in 1995 and she went anyway and made a wonderful splash and spoke out against human rights violations there.  She doesn't like that those trashy Arkansas NOT blue-blood Clintons didn't kiss her San Fran bu** when they were in Washington.

    And gawd forbid another woman be in a higher position of power than her.  She's the top dog.

    Parent

    "more power with Obama" (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:08:47 PM EST
    exactly right.


    Parent
    I agree with Hillary (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:57:14 PM EST
    I am a little tired of people who dont need to worry about buying gas or what they buy in the supermarket sneering at attempts to help those that do.
    THAT is very republican.
    and as far as the "experts".
    calling any economist and expert is a stretch as far as I am concerned.  it is closer to astrology than anything else.

    Parent
    And by the way (none / 0) (#37)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:00:34 PM EST
    I can't afford a car.  I have to adjust how much food I buy the week after I pay my rent.

    So let's be a little careful when tossing around charges of elitism.

    Parent

    so you dont have a car (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:01:59 PM EST
    explains why you dont care about gas.

    Parent
    He should care about the price of oil (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:08:36 PM EST
    It's affecting food prices, heating costs, and so much more.

    (Not saying he does't; it's just not only about cars.)

    Parent

    Sorry (none / 0) (#45)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:03:58 PM EST
    I realize that I'm urban working class instead of suburban working class so my concerns don't count around here.

    Parent
    No one is saying that. (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:06:45 PM EST
    But millions of Americans ARE affected by gas prices.  Maybe not you. But MOST of us are.  

    Parent
    the POINT is (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:06:54 PM EST
    many people who have cars cant afford to buy gas and have to work and feed families.
    anything that could possibly help them, even a little, is worth trying.
    what is the huge risk we are taking?  the oil companies may make a little more money?
    they wont even notice.


    Parent
    meaning? (none / 0) (#60)
    by Florida Resident on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:11:03 PM EST
    You definitely (none / 0) (#44)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:03:18 PM EST
    have a valid point there.

    Parent
    "Experts" don't have to choose between (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by mrjerbub on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:26:32 PM EST
    gas & food IMO, she's most likely thinking: How about a little help for the little guy. These people aren't going to get a stimulus check. They're still americans. Who cares about them? Hillary.

    Parent
    Are you serious? (none / 0) (#22)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:52:01 PM EST
    Just because the Clinton campaign disagrees with all the experts (and who does that remind you of)

    In this instance, she disagrees, but she's like Bush?

    Unbelievable.  Get help.


    Parent

    That's silly. (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:49:34 PM EST
    There's no "market price" for gasoline or, if there is, we haven't reached it yet (as witnessed by the continued purchase of gasoline at whatever price).  It's possible that the refineries (which are hurting, by the way, from the oil price squeeze) may raise prices.  But you don't know that, and it wouldn't be the "oil companies" that would do the raising.

    It's quite likely that the 18.4 cent difference would disappear into the normal ups and downs (these days, mostly ups) of gas prices.  I don't think this is a particularly good idea (fiscally -- it may be a political winner) but no one is really able to pontificate on what would happen to that 18.4 cents per gallon.

    Parent

    I agree-- Gas prices went down 3% (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Exeter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:13:20 PM EST
    in Illinois, when in 2000, Obama voted to have a six month gas tax holiday of the state's 5% sales tax.

    Parent
    Gas has proven to sell at its current rate... (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Addison on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:39:07 PM EST
    ...the gas tax would be cut, then distributors, gas station owners, and refineries would all take their nibble immediately (why not?) and consumers would see none of the 18 cents.

    They would see a lot more potholes on the interstate, bridge collapses, and unemployed road contractors and construction workers in the next few years.

    Parent

    NO (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by jedimom on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:11:04 PM EST
    No the road funds are safe under Hillarys plan she wants it linked to a windfall profits tax on oil cos

    guess what I just heard on Kudlow CNBC Sen Obama has proposed a windfall profits tax on oil cos, ahhh yes where have I heard that...HILLARY

    Also Obama is bundled by Excelon who would LOVE gas prices to stay high and oil as well so they can push thru nuke power....

    Parent

    how many times does (none / 0) (#193)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:19:04 PM EST
    Obama think he can get away with that?  He openly opposed this.  

    The only reason people say the two of the candidates are so close on the issues is because Obama doesn't have any until he steals Hillary's.

    Did Kudlow call him on it?

    Parent

    That's not how gas prices work, though (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Exeter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:50:06 PM EST
    *IF* such an effect did take place it would take several months for it to work its way through the system. By that time, the 90 day "gas holiday," would be over or nearly over. Hopefully, for several reasons, gas prices will be lower by the end of this holiday, and, in the meantime, it would offer some relief.

    Parent
    Utter trash (5.00 / 5) (#42)
    by RalphB on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:03:05 PM EST
    this would be no help to Exxon etal.  Gas prices don't begin to work that way.  There wouldn't be any savings for the oil companies under Clinton's plan since the shortfall from the tax holiday would be made up with an excess profits tax on those oil companies.  Why does everyone always leave that out?

    Pelosi and Hoyer are more than likely saving the oil companies from that excess profits tax.  They damn sure don't seem to care about the guy on the street.


    Parent

    It's being left out because it's irrelevant. (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Addison on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:36:35 PM EST
    There wouldn't be any savings for the oil companies under Clinton's plan since the shortfall from the tax holiday would be made up with an excess profits tax on those oil companies.  Why does everyone always leave that out?

    Because there's no way a windfall tax wouldn't be vetoed by Bush. Hillary's plan to make up the funding won't go through this summer, but she still wants to cut the gas tax this summer.

    And if you are arguing for the "symbolism" of Bush vetoing the windfall tax, I'd argue that you're promoting a kabuki non-solution and wasting America's time.

    Parent

    No what's irrelevant (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by RalphB on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:00:24 PM EST
    is supporting the democrats in congress who are cowards to their core.  Let  Bush veto it and use it as further ammunition against McCain or maybe to elect more spineless democrats to congress.

    The real reason it's being left out is because it looks good for Clinton and knocks down an Obama talking point.

    You guys are so short-sighted I'm amazed you can find your own a-s with both hands, a roadmap, and a flashlight.

    Parent

    Classy. (none / 0) (#155)
    by Addison on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:15:56 PM EST
    Well, as classy as that comment was (where are the decorum monitors now?), I'm afraid you're still just showing that this gas tax holiday is not -- and never was -- about actually saving Americans money on gas. One way or another it's DC kabuki, it has nothing to do with getting things done in any substantive way.

    Parent
    alt energy (none / 0) (#189)
    by jedimom on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:13:53 PM EST
    IIRC all 3 candidates plans to fund alternative energy call for windfall profits-like tax on energy cos
    we have to cross this bridge

    Hill bringing it to floor of Senate force votes on the record..

    Obama voted for the pork laden gift filled Cheney energy bill that helped get us here, now he wants to tax the profits HE voted for

    but thats not pandering?

    Parent

    Whoa! (none / 0) (#47)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:05:06 PM EST
    since the shortfall from the tax holiday would be made up with an excess profits tax on those oil companies.  Why does everyone always leave that out?

    Thanks for the reminder.

    Parent

    That is the pattern than generally emerges (none / 0) (#188)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:13:14 PM EST
    Unless the states take off all their taxes at the same time this won't make enough difference to most households to make it worthwhile.

    The price of oil will continue to rise, that will be passed on to the consumers, and then we'll see an instant .24 a gallon jump at the end of the holiday.

    I live in Seattle where the gas prices are hovering just under $4 a gallon. All day and night traffic continues to be heavy. These prices don't seem to have slowed down anyone's vehicle use.

    I'd like to see Hillary rethink this one.

    Parent

    I did some 'math' today from a trucker (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:09:24 PM EST
    stand point. It's a .24.4 break on diesel. When looking at some trucker stats, yearly average travel seems to be 100-125,000 miles per year. so about 31250 during the holiday if you use the higher average. Seems like 7mpg is an average #, some get as few as 5mpg (!!!) others more. So at 7mpg, you would save about $1 for every 28 miles you drive.

    This is fuel that would be used anyway. The oil companies would be paying for the tax break. This would also help other independent workers that use diesel (or gas) but aren't necessarily hauling goods.

    This could help her with the Truckers vote, perhaps? A demographic that Obama needs and McCain could get.

    http://tinyurl.com/63x9o6

    Oh, and we did Nancy get a vocal spine?!

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#70)
    by dissenter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:17:19 PM EST
    And isn't he the one that got the Teamsters endorsement. Unbelievable

    Parent
    He gets the endorsements (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:25:58 PM EST
    but it seems like the workers don't always follow management into the voting booth  ;)

    Parent
    Regardless (5.00 / 7) (#3)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:36:52 PM EST
    of whether you think it was bad policy or not, the only reason for this is because it would hurt Obama for them to even consider something Clinton is backing.  It doesn't fit their narrative.

    BINGO (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:38:26 PM EST
    It is seriously a bad mistake by the House Dems. (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by alexei on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:24:11 PM EST
    To come out point blank and say DOA for trying to help the American consumer is terrible politics.  This gives McCain a heads up on showing that "he cares about me".  Clinton also gets that.  But to allow your support for one Democratic Presidential Candidate to trump the good of the Party is ridiculous and stupid.

    Parent
    they should be applauded for (1.00 / 1) (#65)
    by libfighter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:14:46 PM EST
    not joining Clinton's pander wagon. It was a poorly thought out and ultimately damaging policy, that served no purpose but to get votes from those who do not understand even basic economics. She might as well have just sent Big Oil a fat check.

    Its a low point for Hillary, copycatting a bad idea McCain. It definitely puts her credibility on economics and the environment into question.


    Parent

    or, it opens up obama (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by english teacher on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:19:56 PM EST
    and the congressional democrats to the sure-to-follow charge of being tax loving liberals.  mark my words, the republicans will use this issue against dems in congress and obama, should he be the nominee.  clinton is inoculated because she outflanked mccain by supporting the tax holiday while also proposing tougher, and necessary, measures.  watch and learn.  today's topic:  how to beat republicans.  

    Parent
    Big Oil Would Not Have Benefited From This (5.00 / 4) (#96)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:29:28 PM EST
    Hillary's plan was for the oil companies to pay for the lost of revenue. Obama voting for Cheney's Energy bill and introducing a liquified coal bill puts his credibility on being an advocate for clean energy solutions into question much more than a short term holiday on the gas tax.

    Parent
    O is running around saying 6,000 lost jobs (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:35:22 PM EST
    if the tax holiday happens. How conveniently he forgets no money will be lost, which means those jobs will continue.

    He's REALLY ticking me off.

    Parent

    while we're at it, how about that stimulus (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by thereyougo on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:01:43 PM EST
    package that has been mailed on 5/1 thats supposed to jump start the economy, but we know it won't.

    We're going to pay for that too down the road.

    Parent

    I would applaud if they (none / 0) (#73)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:18:10 PM EST
    also derided Obama's bad healthcare plan that any economist and healthcare expert will tell you is bad and useless without mandates.  His pandering to the healthcare companies is truly a low-point for him.  He might as well have sent Aetna a big fat check.  

    And you'll be hard-pressed to ever in your life attempt to take away her credibility on economics.  

    Parent

    How does McCain's proposal pay for the tax? (none / 0) (#75)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:18:40 PM EST
    It doesn't. (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:20:57 PM EST
    Like a typical Republican he wants a tax break with no way to pay for it. Hillary proposed this with very specific ways of paying for it.

    Parent
    yup. ;) (none / 0) (#110)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:37:00 PM EST
    Pfui (none / 0) (#81)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:21:08 PM EST
    It was a poorly thought out

    If it's one thing I've learned from listening to Clinton, it's that very little is "poorly thought out" and certainly not something like this.

    Parent

    post partisan? (none / 0) (#131)
    by miguelito on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:53:51 PM EST
    so it's only good to work with and agree with Republicans when Obama does it,  but when Hillary does, it's a "low point".  Kool Aid mentality at it's finest, folks.

    Parent
    First, (none / 0) (#164)
    by 0 politico on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:30:31 PM EST
    HC's plan is not the same as JMc's plan.  Maybe you missed that point.

    No, I do not believe it is a long term economic solution, only short term consumer relief at the expense of Big Oil.  Both HC and BO has expressed long term Green initiatives to reduce oil dependency, so no, BO does not have a superior morale argument here.  (Funny, it sounded like he became "green" a week after she announce her platform.)

    While a $30-$40 to dollar savings over the summer may not sound like much, to caught in the middle voters, at least they feel that someone is listening to their concerns.

    By not getting behind the idea of some kind of consumer relief, the Dem Leadership and BO risk the possibility of being insensitive (and elitist) towards the average consumer's and voter's pressing issue - the economic situation in their home.

    Folks should remember that there are a lot more Wal-Mart and Target shoppers in this country than there are Saks and Nieman Marcus shoppers.

    Parent

    And.. (none / 0) (#7)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:39:57 PM EST
    The only reason any democrat would ever support McCain's boondoggle is because it's calculated to hurt Obama.  Let's not mistake this for what it is here.

    Parent
    Actually, while I totally disagree with (5.00 / 4) (#51)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:07:29 PM EST
    the notion of a gas tax holidy, Clinton is once again showing that she is willing to be responsive to an electorate that is feeling hard hit by the rise in energy costs.  Obama simply says "No" and doesn't offer an alternative idea and based on an exchange I had today there are some good ways of easing the pain for voters that are better.  But Obama can't seem to bring himself to pursue the working class voter with real and more immediat solutions.  The problem is that $30 is A LOT of money to more and more people now.  Two great suggestions I heard were to offer CFLs at a considerably lower price and employ people at gas stations to check tire pressure because that helps mileage and may yield even more financial benefit.  These ideas would also instill good practices that we will need to adopt in order to beat this energy crisis.

    Parent
    What is a CFL? n/t (none / 0) (#66)
    by Emma on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:15:51 PM EST
    Compact flourescent lightbulb. n/t (none / 0) (#160)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:21:16 PM EST
    According to the Star Trib in IL (5.00 / 4) (#95)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:28:18 PM EST
    Obama supported a state level gas holiday...

    So was it a boondoggle then? Or is  it a boondoggle now?

    Parent

    Kerry the 2nd (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by miguelito on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:52:07 PM EST
    another example how Obama was for something before he was against it.  Horrible.  

    Parent
    not so much "horrible" (none / 0) (#130)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:53:26 PM EST
    as typical.

    Parent
    I didn't realize (none / 0) (#18)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:48:37 PM EST
    Obama is the only Democrat in America now.  LOL

    Parent
    did Obama vote for a gas tax holiday (none / 0) (#145)
    by Josey on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:02:53 PM EST
    3 times in Illinois? If so, can't find a link.


    Parent
    hmmm......good catch there (none / 0) (#150)
    by thereyougo on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:07:18 PM EST
    Jeralyn found it! it's posted now (none / 0) (#203)
    by Josey on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:55:33 PM EST
    AGREE (none / 0) (#191)
    by jedimom on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:15:21 PM EST
    It shows that Pelosi and Hoyer are loyal to Obama and their agendas before the people, period, again.

    Parent
    Is it something that Hillary (5.00 / 6) (#5)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:38:02 PM EST
    is proposing, Nancy? Then yes. DOA.  How swiftly they cut down anything suggested by her.  A$$hats both.   Where was her spine when we needed a deadline for Iraq? They are truly jellyfish when it matters.  They have spines when it comes to inanities.

    Nothing New Here (5.00 / 6) (#8)
    by BDB on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:41:43 PM EST
    Congressional Democrats have long been much more willing to say no to democrats, including democratic presidents, than to republicans.   It's a sickness.

    Also DOA: (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by OrangeFur on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:31:17 PM EST
    Impeachment.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by Steve M on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:42:30 PM EST
    The gas tax holiday, like most tax cuts, is pretty much a Republican initiative.  (Of course, Republicans don't propose it in the same revenue-neutral way as Hillary, but it's still a bad idea.)  Yet the Democratic leadership only gets the nerve to pronounce it DOA once Hillary starts to push it.

    Savvy observers may have noticed that the media wasn't fact-checking the idea of a tax holiday whatsoever back when McCain proposed it.  In fact, they were spreading misinformation like saying that it might save people as much as 20%.  Only when Hillary got involved did the media suddenly start to tell us about all the experts who think that it's a terrible idea.  Interesting dynamic at work.

    Not interesting, predictable. (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:46:45 PM EST
    The only time I've ever seen the huge disappointment that is Nancy Pelosi doing anything that could be construed as remotely brave, it's when she very clearly is trying to undercut Hillary.  

    I'd say Bill really scared the hell out of those DC do-nothings when he was President. They don't want Hillary anywhere near the White House. Gawd forbid! They may actually have to DO something!

    Parent

    the dynamic is how to beat republicans (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by english teacher on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:54:52 PM EST
    now, hillary cannot be called a knee-jerk taxer, a tax loving liberal, or a tax and spend democrat.  this was a general election move by the republicans first.  think about it.  she took it away from them.  checkmate hillary.

    Parent
    Exactly. (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:58:21 PM EST
    She's too smart for these fools.   Seriously.  She out-hawks the Repubs on Iran in a clear, Democratic, SANE way.  She's a liberal where it counts the most: universal healthcare and good tax policy.  She knows when she should compromise and she knows when to fight.

    Nancy knows she should fight Hillary and capitulate to Bush and the Capitol Hill boys.

    Again I say Hillary is simply too smart for these fools.

    Parent

    Of course you're right ... (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Robot Porter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:59:17 PM EST
    and you could see her using it in a debate against McCain.  Even the reaction by Pelosi could be used.

    Parent
    Should they have backed (1.00 / 0) (#74)
    by libfighter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:18:37 PM EST
    a terrible and damaging plan, that Hillary lifted from McCain?

    Parent
    they should have followed (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by english teacher on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:21:49 PM EST
    hillary's lead by taking away the tax issue and outflanking with a serious proposal.  instead, they were once again gazing at their navels when a clinton demonstrated how to beat republicans.  

    Parent
    Yes, great political move by Hillary and the House (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by alexei on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:27:18 PM EST
    collective for Obama, spurns a Dem take away from the Repubs.  This is another example of why I will be working against Obama supporters.

    Parent
    I'd like to get a yea/nay from all the Dems (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:32:35 PM EST
    running for re-election.

    Parent
    And Obama, who apparently (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by oculus on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:23:07 PM EST
    supported such a plan while he was an elected IL state senator.

    Parent
    It appears (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Steve M on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:26:53 PM EST
    that you have no idea at all of the differences between Hillary's plan and McCain's.

    You must be from one of those websites that thinks Hillary's Middle East policy is indistinguishable from George Bush's.

    Parent

    There are people who don't believe that?! (none / 0) (#102)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:33:08 PM EST
    what is damaging about it? (none / 0) (#78)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:20:24 PM EST
    what is damaging about it? (none / 0) (#79)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:20:27 PM EST
    1. Increases oil company revenues (none / 0) (#111)
    by magster on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:37:41 PM EST
    1. increases gas demand which will raise gas prices, offsetting some if not all of the minimal benefit.

    2. sticker shock after gas tax holiday ends.

    3. increased consumption and in turn, increased greenhouse gases.

    4. layoffs for road construction crews and further neglect of infrastructure (windfall profit tax is not going to pass if gas holiday passes)

    5. Democrat sides with Republican to double team likely Democratic nominee.


    Parent
    The Revenue For Roads Would Not Be Lost (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:00:49 PM EST
    under Hillary's plan since it is revenue neutral. Whatever money was there for roads would still be there. Completely distorts her position.

     

    Parent

    I responded to this bit of misinformation too (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:02:39 PM EST
    but for some reason it got stuck at the bottom of the page.

    Parent
    That's a line of bull (none / 0) (#154)
    by magster on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:14:59 PM EST
    Do you really think Bush will sign a oil company revenue tax?

    Parent
    it just puts the issue back in play (none / 0) (#161)
    by english teacher on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:25:56 PM EST
    for the repubs in congress who would join with bush to then override the veto.  actually, hillary may have gotten on the right side of this issue in such a way as to ride it all the way to the general election with the narrative being "repubs block gas holiday due to increase in company profits tax" instead of "dems never met a tax they didn't like".  chess not checkers.  if dems wake up, they can use this issue to beat congressional republicans supporting a potential bush veto. not only that, by getting behind it now, clinton has also provided cover for congressional dems, in the form of time, to get behind the real reforms for which the tax issue is a clever segue.  obviously, i think this is a winning issue for clinton, and beautifully played.  i will shut up now.  

    Parent
    No He Would Veto It (none / 0) (#163)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:29:36 PM EST
    Then all the Republicans, including McCain, would have to go on record as preferring the oil companies over people.

    OTOH McCain's plan would just be added to the federal debt. The Dems would then be put in the position of voting against it. The meme would be Republicans want to help you but the Democrats don't care if you can't afford the gas to get to work or not. Hillary coming out in favor of the tax holiday but making the oil companies pay for it threw the ball back into the Republican court.

    This is the part of the whole thing Obama's supporters fail to understand.

    Parent

    The Democrats Suck at Passing Bills (none / 0) (#166)
    by BDB on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:32:43 PM EST
    and making Bush veto them.  In part because the Republican Congress is better at blocking them.  Of course, they might not be better if they occasionally had to actually engage in a true filibuster.

    Parent
    Democrats Evidently Prefer Being In A Minority (none / 0) (#168)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:44:58 PM EST
    position where they can use that status as an excuse. Doesn't look like winning back the WH is the highest item on their priority list either.
     

    Parent
    uhhhh (none / 0) (#195)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:30:11 PM EST
    It's all their fault.  The victim party.   :(

    Parent
    NO --- IACF n/t (none / 0) (#196)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:36:21 PM EST
    1. How? They are paying for it. (none / 0) (#149)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:05:48 PM EST
    1. How many people who can't afford 4per gallon gas, will drive more if it's 3.82 a gallon? Do you REALLY believe that struggling families are going to drive for the heck of it, especially with food prices also going up? Remember, the savings according to Obama are basically none, 30 cents a day.

    2. 18 cents will be sticker shock?

    4 see #2

    5 tax is tied into the Clinton plan

    6 Democrat sides with the people and asks other dems to do the same. the spineless ones in congress have been ignoring the people long enough.

    Parent

    Let's see... (none / 0) (#158)
    by kdog on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:19:42 PM EST
    Icreases oil co. revenues...they seem to do a fine job of that regardless.  Whatever the price becomes it beats that plus 18 cents.

    Increases demand...I'm not sold on that.  For example, if gas was 18 cents cheaper tomorrow I wouldn't fill-up and drive around the block 50 times.  My usage would not change.

    Sticker shock...thats easy, make the tax disappear permanently.

    Greenhouse gases...planet earth will be ok, some species including humans are in danger from greenhouse gases.  I don't really see how squeezing the working family really helps much.  The elites are fueling the private jets and Hummers no matter what gas costs.

    Layoffs...their are lots of ways to secure highway maintenance funds.  Pulling out of Iraq and abolishing the DEA are two of my favorites.

    Number 6 is political bullsh*t...this about people.

    Parent

    I wonder if he thought about (none / 0) (#178)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:04:55 PM EST
    those things when he voted for gas tax holidays while he was in the IL legislature.

    Parent
    ssssssssh! (none / 0) (#185)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:10:45 PM EST
    his past is supposed to be hidden! A blank slate if you will, to form into what you want . . .   {gag}

    Parent
    Uh (none / 0) (#209)
    by Steve M on Sat May 03, 2008 at 02:53:32 AM EST
    You can't just declare that a tax is not going to pass, therefore you're going to criticize Hillary's plan as if there wasn't a tax in it.  It's still part of the plan.  If the plan is unachievable, then okay, I guess Democrats get the political benefit of proposing it without any of the downside of actually enacting it.

    It's simply false to say that under Clinton's plan, workers will be laid off and bridges will fall down.  A complete lie.  If I'm allowed to rewrite policy proposals based upon what I think Congress might do to them in reality, I assure you I could make any one of Obama's plans into an unmitigated disaster as well.  But it would be a dishonest tactic.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:45:09 PM EST
    Funny how Nancy comes out strongly against -- Hillary.

    It also gives you an idea of how Nancy would act with a Hillary presidency.

    Suddenly Nancy would be strongly against things proposed by the president, rather than a pushover as she is with Bush.

    The woman needs to be fired.

    FYI (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:45:59 PM EST
    I'm against this tax holiday.  However, I'm also against many Bush proposals that Nancy doesn't come out strongly against.

    Parent
    Amazing how (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by janarchy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:59:02 PM EST
    our esteemed Speaker of the House (yeah, right) can't get anything done, takes important things off the table, but can manage to get this done with her pet lap dog, Steny Hoyer. But of course we know she's uncommitted and neutral! She said so, it must be true!

    wait a second... (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by english teacher on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:01:07 PM EST
    i thought obama was the one who was campaigning on his ability to work with those "across the aisle" and bring "unity".  now he is aligned with congressional dems in favor of keeping a tax?  this is pretzel logic type stuff.

    didn't you get the memo (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by miguelito on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:59:17 PM EST
    Obama is the only one allowed to reach across the aisle!

    Parent
    and suddenly (none / 0) (#157)
    by boredmpa on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:19:00 PM EST
    a national enquirer headline pops into my head:

    font size 20++, yellow text

    Anonymous Senator: "Hillary gives better reach around"!!!

    "Our anonymous source told us that, "Hillary just gives a better reach around and really follows thorough, Barack just kinda gets bored in the middle.  And we all know how that is..."

    Ahhh Larry Craig...where are you when the queer community needs you for some laughs.

    Parent

    o/t: (none / 0) (#162)
    by english teacher on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:28:21 PM EST
    for a while there, i was thinking of changing my screen name to "naughty, nasty english teacher" in honor of him, but decided against it.  

    Parent
    If there's 200 million cars registered (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:06:23 PM EST
    And let's say 50% of them are owned and used every day by the middle class.

    That's 100 million cars.

    Now if you say that each one of those cars uses 12 gallons per week on average, lets crunch some numbers.

    What you come up with is the possibility that a Republican talking point can go like this:  

    House Democrats denied a 228 Million dollar tax break for the middle class!

    Now of course no one can prove that's what would have happened.  Econ101 says it would not have.  And anyone with a brain will know that a 228 million dollar tax break only works out to like 28 bucks per person in the middle class, etc. etc.

    Just mulling over the politics involved here.  And I find it odd what talking points we live in fear of and which one's we validate going forward.

    I can't prove Pelosi or Hoyer are politically motivated to support Obama on this so I won't go there.


    I like it! (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Josey on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:10:38 PM EST
    You're either with the American people or with the Oil Companies. -
    Bill Clinton


    Cardinal Pelosi? She is for Pope Obama I (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by feet on earth on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:19:42 PM EST
    These super delegates are acting like the conclave: white smoke for His Holiness Pope Obama I
    Sacred sh**t

    Symbolic (5.00 / 4) (#84)
    by BDB on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:21:55 PM EST
    The power in Clinton's plan is its symbolism.  She is going to (temporarily) replace a tax that people pay with a tax on corporations.  Now, it's true it might not save anyone a dime.  But so what?  Even if it doesn't save anyone any money, where's the harm?  There is no harm.  And, who knows, it might save some people who are really struggling a little bit of money.

    But I return to the symbolism, after eight years of having the government put corporations over people, it's a powerful symbol for democrats to send that they are going to do what they can to put people first.

    So what does the Democratic leadership do, immediately announce that the plan that would try to shift the economic burden from people to corporations, at least temporarily, is DOA.  No wonder Democrats lose elections.  

    But, hey, Pelosi did say that it was dead because it would interfere with the other things Democrats are trying to do to lower the price of gas.   So apparently there is some plan, some where to help lower gas prices (although it's a super secret plan apparently).    I can't help but wonder if it is similar to all the things democrats are doing to end the war in Iraq?  Because it seems about as effective given that my neighborhood cheap-o gas station is at $3.81 a gallon.  

    As for Obama, his last ad claimed the way to fix gas prices is to fix Washington.  If I have to wait for him to fix Washington, I'm going to be paying $8 a gallon.

    This isn't about policy, it's about politics.  

    As for the charge of "pandering" (5.00 / 6) (#88)
    by BDB on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:24:44 PM EST
    Yes, god forbid democrats be accused of proposing a policy that is popular with voters.  Much better to lecture them to eat their vegetables and tell them how high gas prices are actually good for them.  Because that will win an election.  

    Parent
    LOL. Yes! God forbid we pander!! (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:26:10 PM EST
    Let's just lose instead!

    Parent
    PETA figured it out (none / 0) (#132)
    by boredmpa on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:55:57 PM EST
    I'm still amazed the PETA started in vitro meat.

    But you gotta be pragmatic about reaching your goals and careful about how you define them.

    Parent

    If it works then yes (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:33:59 PM EST
    Clinton will have replaced a regressive tax with a progressive tax.


    Parent
    BDB, This Is Precisely What Is Going On (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:47:02 PM EST
    Dem leadership is completely tone deaf and too often ham fisted at dealing with public perception. This is what Hillary is doing and what all Democrats should adopt as their mantra.

    After eight years of having the government put corporations over people, it's a powerful symbol for democrats to send that they are going to do what they can to put people first.


    Parent
    Has anyone noticed... (5.00 / 5) (#97)
    by OrangeFur on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:29:49 PM EST
    ... that whenever someone is praised for being politically courageous, it's because he or she is arguing against helping the working class or middle class?

    agreed (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by boredmpa on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:47:00 PM EST
    and look at the opposite example--hillary tries to pass universal healthcare and it fails.  So in this campaign it's always discussed as a failure, she can barely get credit for SCHIP, and people talk about Obama as the candidate as change that will stand up to special interests.

    I mean what the f*ck?  HRC pushed for purchasing pools and the removal of the insurance middleman.  How much more courageous can you get?  Yes she's more pragmatic now, but it is dumbfounding that her actions are never discussed as a profile in courage.

    Parent

    Shorter version... (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by kdog on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:30:13 PM EST
    Screw you working man and woman...we need that money more than you...to "fix roads"...wink wink.

    Enough of these "Democrats" (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:31:03 PM EST
    Keep it up and it's going to be raining McCain with a Republican congress who will go ahead and push a gas tax holiday anyway.

    I thinks it's a great political move. (5.00 / 4) (#104)
    by Joan in VA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:34:35 PM EST
    Shows she cares about the average citizen while Obama mocks her and the average citizen thinks he's out of touch. Also, marginalizes McCain's idea with a smarter one. And average citizen loves the oil companies paying more taxes on their outrageous profits.

    My Favorite Part of the Hill article (5.00 / 4) (#117)
    by BDB on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:41:15 PM EST
    peaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said "there's no reason to believe that any moratorium on the gas tax would be passed on to the consumer." She has left the measure off the list of energy proposals that she may try to attach to the supplemental Iraq war-spending bill.

    Talk about saying it all.  The gas tax holiday is DOA, but rest assured the other energy proposals are going to do just fine because they will be attached to the Iraq war supplemental.  What brave leaders we have.

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:43:14 PM EST
    Good catch.

    Parent
    no sense of leverage (5.00 / 3) (#119)
    by candideinnc on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:41:38 PM EST
    I see the weak knee'd Democrats like Pelosi and others arguing, "But if we pass it, the Presidunt will just veto it.  And we can't get the Rethuglicans to override the veto.  Please don't ask us to actually DO anything for the people at the pump."  SO WHAT if it is vetoed?  Make the Presdiunt veto a popular plan that will force the oil barons to use a little bit of their gazillions in oil profits to help the American taxpayer.  Force the Rethugs to vote against it, then let them face the voters on the issue in the fall.  Are Pelosi and her crowd trying to lose the elections?  

    Hillary's plan was brilliant.  McCain was going to try to buy the vote with a little tax relief, leaving the infrastructure to rot--what does he care?   Hillary one ups him and says, "Sure, but the people who are raking it in on oil profits have to pay for it."  She is a genius!  These other people are fools.

    economically speaking (2.00 / 0) (#13)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:45:44 PM EST
    this is a disaster waiting to happen with no real benefit to the working class.  

    I have little respect for Pelosi et al, but this would hurt more than it would help and it was purely grandstanding.

    A Disaster I Say!!!! A Disaster!!!!! (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:34:40 PM EST
    The sky is falling and the world is at risk. Hillary supported a short term holiday on gas tax. Oh, what will happen to our children now.

    Oh, goodness me. Could anything be more diabolical. It is a
    D I S A S T E R !!!!!!

    Parent

    not a disaster (none / 0) (#204)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:14:09 PM EST
    but I expect more from Hillary. She understands the bend break of a constricting economy and windfall profit taxing would be impossible to pass with a repub president so the veto would impact her voters to a much greater degree short and mid term.

    Parent
    This is insane. (1.00 / 0) (#115)
    by 1jpb on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:39:41 PM EST
    I feel like I'm in an alternate dimension.  Why are so many commenters taking this seriously?  I can't believe all the effort that some are putting into sussing out the pros and cons of this gas stuff.  

    Please, please, please step back and look at the forest.  This is 100% cynical and manipulative politicking.  Never mind that economists say it makes no financial sense.  It has 0% chance of being passed, hence it is 100% fiction, it will 100% have no effect on anyone this summer, and HRC and McCain know it.  I genuinely feel sorry for the HRC supporters wasting time promoting this, HRC is playing you for fools if you don't know this isn't going anywhere.  Or maybe, you do know that this gas stuff is bogus, but you prefer to have blind allegiance to HRC rather than a commitment to sensible public policy; well, that's even more sad than those who are being tricked by HRC on this issue.

    Anyway, the one thing this episode does reinforce is the idea that HRC can't get major legislation passed that effects all Americans or the world (e.g. being the top D on gov. accountability and expanded international arms control or one of two top Ds on major ethics reform.)

    P.S.  The spell checker doesn't like "sussing" that's odd; I like sussing, sussing is fun.

    Bogus? (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by kdog on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:47:31 PM EST
    3.80 a gallon vs. 3.62 is bogus?  

    I know it's sometimes hard for us to fathom, but that's huge to people teetering on the brink.  

    For me right now it's a couple less bucks to lose at the track, for somebody else it's one less trip to Starbucks.  But to somebody else it's a pound of bolgna to feed your kids.

    I know people think the oil business will just jack the price, but that beats them jacking the price + 18 cents.

    The only beef I have with the gas tax holiday idea is nobody is talking about making it permanent.  Tax every cup of designer coffee 18 cents if you wanna, taxing gas is like taxing milk.  When it was cheap and plentiful the gas tax didn't really matter or hurt, now that gas is scarce and expensive the tax has gotta go.

    Parent

    Politicking like when Obama wanted (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:59:11 PM EST
    his name on that gas pump in IL saying he'd lowered the prices?  Like that?  Cuz he was all for it back then.  Politicking to win I suppose

    Parent
    Dr. Jekyl: Where is Mr. Hyde? (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Joan in VA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:00:18 PM EST
    Why are you fussing at us today? We are not tricked or suffering from blind allegiance or being played for fools. It doesn't even seem that you read the same comments that I did. We have stated various viewpoints and if you don't agree with any, that is your choice. Please state your opinion in a less confrontational manner. Thanks!

    Parent
    um (none / 0) (#122)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:44:01 PM EST
    You realize that your comment has nothing to do with MY post right?

    Parent
    Well I did (1.00 / 0) (#147)
    by 1jpb on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:03:48 PM EST
    tie in HRC's historic inability to pass major national/international legislation, which does relate to the inability to persuade Congressional leaders and members, as I tried to keep touch with the topic of this post.  I wonder if anyone will pick up on how this situation highlights how ineffectual she is as a legislator--let's face it she got a surprisingly swift slap down on this issue, I'd have thought they would have shown more deference, but now we see how weak her influence truly is (who would have guessed that saying you're a fighter over and over and over and... doesn't result in solutions or results or changemaking.)

    The balance of my comment was explicitly pointed at commenters, rather than the poster (I am sometimes sloppy about the commenter/poster distinction, but in this case I was purposefully referring only to commentors.)

    Parent

    Please point me to this (none / 0) (#151)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:09:21 PM EST
    "historic inability" As I recall, Senators from BOTH sides of the aisle have commended her SPECIFICALLY on her ability to work with Republican members of Congress.

    And considering Obama's ridiculously thin and not whatsoever there legislation record, I wouldn't be trying to compare notes on who is the more experienced with legislation.  

    Surprisingly swift slap down?  Coming from that jellyfish Pelosi I consider it a compliment.  She can't slap down Bush to save her life but she'll slap down Hillary in the name of Obama.

    Parent

    You and all HRC supporters should be (1.00 / 0) (#156)
    by 1jpb on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:17:38 PM EST
    very worried about what you said:

    She can't slap down Bush to save her life but she'll slap down Hillary in the name of Obama.

    You, as an HRC fan, may not see it but your own comment is a devastating acknowledgment.

    Either HRC is weaker than the very unpopular Bush.  Or, BO is much better at getting people to side with him when he needs something done.  Or, maybe a combination.  No matter what, your statement is a strong attack on HRC's effectiveness, even if it was unintentional on your part.

    And, my original comment referred to three of BO's legislative successes.  These are unmatched by HRC, even though she's been in the US Senate longer--of course BO can rely on his previous experience in IL, so maybe that' why he's been more successful in DC.

    Parent

    Substance abuse (5.00 / 0) (#173)
    by andrys on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:57:03 PM EST
     Here's a remedy for that from factcheck.org.

      It's titled "A widely forwarded e-mail claims that Obama's bills are more substantive and numerous than Clinton's. Don't believe it" and then it vividly explains why you shouldn't believe the claims much less try to persuade others with them.

     A problem is that people will believe what they prefer to believe against the facts of the matter.

    Parent

    Nothing in that link (none / 0) (#194)
    by 1jpb on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:20:01 PM EST
    contradicts anything I've written.  I completely agree with the factual points in that link, I don't question them at all.  I'm not looking at who created the most paper by moving small bore legislation (e.g. naming Post Offices), I'm looking at who built coalitions and passed legislation that affect all Americans, or the world.  Your link doesn't look at or compare passed legislation where BO or HRC teamed up with an R, but they were the lead D (or one of two lead lead Ds, e.g. ethics reform.)

    I know the record is hard to accept for many HRC fans.  She's indicated that as a fighter; she's had results and solutions and changemaking, but this sloganeering doesn't hold up (she's been gun shy since the health care blowup.)  HRC supporters seem to have a visceral sense that she has learned how to move difficult legislation because of the health care disaster, but there's no proof of that.  She's been on the Senate sidelines avoiding conflict as she waited to run for the presidency.  She is much less proven than BO when it comes to passing laws to make big changes to our government, that's a fact, even if it isn't conventional wisdom.

     

    Parent

    Lead Dem credit definitely accounted for there (none / 0) (#208)
    by andrys on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:36:55 PM EST
    You must have skimmed it and missed several points.

    And overall,
     "Since the value of a piece of legislation is so often a matter of opinion, that's a blogspat we won't get into. We can say for sure, though, that Clinton has been the sole original sponsor of more bills than Obama at a slightly higher annual rate; that she's been more successful than Obama at passing bills through the Senate and into law; and that, while she has sponsored a number of seemingly frivolous bills that were signed into law, these are comparable to many of Obama's bills and common in the Senate generally."

    In particular,
      "An accurate comparison with the Clinton bills listed in the e-mail would have included only the bills Obama has sponsored that have been signed into law. This comparison favors Clinton heavily, since 19 of her bills in seven years have become law, while Obama has had just two in his three years:

        * S. 2125, A bill to promote relief, security, and democracy in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
        * S. 3757, A bill to designate the facility of the United States Postal Service located at 950 Missouri Avenue in East St. Louis, Illinois, as the "Katherine Dunham Post Office Building."

    And a Washington Post article detailed how often Obama takes credit for himself where it's not merited and raises eyebrows from those who WERE responsible for a bill.  One example:


     "Immigration is a case in point for Obama, but not the only one. In 2007, after the first comprehensive immigration bill had died, the senators were back at it, and again, Obama was notably absent, staffers and senators said. At one meeting, three key negotiators recalled, he entered late and raised a number of questions about the bill's employment verification system. Kennedy and Specter both rebuked him, saying that the issue had already been resolved and that he was coming late to the discussion. Kennedy dressed him down, according to witnesses, and Obama left shortly thereafter.

    "Senator Obama came in late, brought up issues that had been hashed and rehashed," Specter recalled. "He didn't stay long."

    Just this week, as the financial markets were roiling in the wake of the Bear Stearns collapse, Obama made another claim that was greeted with disbelief in some corners of Capitol Hill....[read details at the article]



    Parent
    Pelosi won't be in office (none / 0) (#170)
    by DJ on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:49:16 PM EST
    in a few years I suspect.

    Parent
    Oh yeah! I forgot about that (none / 0) (#134)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:57:27 PM EST
    post office Obama got named. And all those sub-committee hearings he didn't have.  My bad.

    Parent
    Pelosi & Hoyer aka Frick and Frack.... (none / 0) (#11)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:42:56 PM EST
    Who cares anymore what they have to say.  They have let the repubs wipe up the floor with them time and time again.  Don't know what crawled up their butts, but I hope they expel it soon.

    Hillary's proposal contains more than just the gas tax holiday and too many people are conveniently leaving out the rest of the proposal.
    We have to start somewhere to try and get out from under the crushing price of gasoline.

    Obama favors energy policy form, not (none / 0) (#21)
    by oculus on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:50:23 PM EST
    a short term "fix," i.e., gas tax holiday.  Dollars to doughnuts Hillary Clinton will acknowledge her mistake quickly and make a concrete proposal more helpful to those whom gas costs make a significant difference in day to day living.

    Energy Policy (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:54:15 PM EST
    meaning nuclear energy and the whole coal thing that Gore himself has derided as a terrible idea (not in reference to Obama, but in general).

    Oh and lest we forget, Obama was FOR gas tax holidays before he was against them.

    Parent

    Clinton already has. . . (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:55:11 PM EST
    significant long term proposals out there -- and (surpise!) today Obama adopted some of them, raising her proposed windfall profits tax on oil companies by 200%.

    The gas tax holiday is a small part of Clinton's energy plans, albeit one fairly obviously introduced for political reasons.

    Parent

    Energy policy reform? (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:55:14 PM EST
    This will occur when?  

    Baloney.  What solution can help consumers ad truckers right now?

    Parent

    Other Than Long Term "Fixes" What (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:00:15 PM EST
    exactly does Obama propose that will help people  whom gas costs make a significant difference in day to day living NOW.

    Hillary also has a very extensive medium and long term energy plan. That is great but that does not do anything to help relieve the stress NOW.

    Parent

    My guess is (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:00:46 PM EST
    This wasn't supposed to be a "fix" - it's politically appealing when one is trying to win an election.  No one denies that, but to voters who still have a say in this matter in places where they are hurting economically (IN, WV, KY, Etc), I think they would look favorably on anything that would give them a little bit of a break - even if it's short term.

    And, as I understand it, there would be no revenue loss in the federal coffers, because that would be made up by windfall profit tax on the oil companies - something that is also politically expedient since oil companies are still making record profits. So, voters get to pay a little less at the pump, so they can feel more comfortable taking a trip during the summer (yes, maybe driving more, but good for the economy when people go on vacation) - AND they get a little satisfaction knowing they are sticking it to the oil companies.

    Again, not good long-term policy, but great PR.

    Parent

    Watch for Oprah to (none / 0) (#72)
    by oculus on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:17:48 PM EST
    award a Prius complete with Obama for President 08 bumper sticker.  

    Parent
    Windfall profits tax? Are you serious? (none / 0) (#197)
    by lilybart on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:17:40 PM EST
    This is not going to happen until the Spring, IF there is a filibuster-proof majority and a DEM president. So now it is money from taxpayers to the oil companies. Or said another way, the oil companies will raise the price to what the market will bear regardless of any tax holiday, so the gov loses it road and hiway and bridge revenue and the oil companies get as rich as they were going to anyway.

    Windfall profit taxes are anti-capitalism without some other element, like collusion, price-fixing, illegal market activities....etc. So let's say we tax them more. What is to stop them from just raising prices again? Nothing will stop it until the market can no longer bear the price. Onlu gov price-fixing will actually lower the price of gas.

    Parent

    You know (none / 0) (#210)
    by Steve M on Sat May 03, 2008 at 02:59:09 AM EST
    A great way to bring about that filibuster-proof majority and Dem President would be if the Republicans decided to filibuster relief at the pump because the poor little oil companies would have had to pay more in taxes.  Please, let them do it.

    I guess it has now come to the point where Hillary's proposals are deemed worthless merely because the Republicans will oppose them.  "Bush will veto that!  Shame on her for bringing it up!"  Interestingly, one of the ways politics work is that if the Republicans oppose something the voters support, the voters can elect Democrats instead.  Not that that will ever happen if your strategy is to refrain from suggesting anything the Republicans would oppose.

    Parent

    Apparently (none / 0) (#24)
    by dissenter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:53:16 PM EST
    You've missed her very well thought out energy policy.

    Parent
    One idea that would be wise... (none / 0) (#46)
    by Exeter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:04:58 PM EST
    ...is for Obama or Clinton to push something that is similar to the European taxation of gasoline, where a consistent price is maintained. Imagine if Clinton came out and said that she could would guarantee that the price of gasoline would be no higher than $3 / gallon for the next 5 years. Gas prices will inevitably go down and it will be a nice profit stream for many renewable energy ventures. And for peace-of-mind and planning purposes, people could rely on a fixed price. In the meantime, keeping gas relatively high will continue to make people more fuel conscience.

    The price would have to be. . . (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:07:35 PM EST
    much higher, since you couldn't price the gas below what the pre-tax price per gallon was.  Maybe six dollars a gallon.  I don't think it would go over very well.

    Parent
    That's true -- Maybe the gov (none / 0) (#118)
    by Exeter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:41:28 PM EST
    just needs to set price of a gallon of gas the same way they set the price of a kilowatt of electricity, in areas that are still regulated by utility boards.

    Parent
    Price fixing (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:08:21 PM EST
    I'm told that leads to gas lines.

    But the fact is the price is essentially being fixed as it is right now.

    That's the biggest problem I've had with the Econ101 basic supply/demand being applied to this issue by folks like Krugman and others.

    I'm not convinced supply and demand are setting the price as it stands right now to begin with.


    Parent

    Strictly speaking supply and demand (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by RalphB on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:38:45 PM EST
    may be setting the prices but that can be easily manipulated depending on when the refineries are put into maintenance periods.  These turnarounds are scheduled and could well be used to create shortfalls during peak times.  For example, there always seem to be shortages of heating oil in the winters and gasoline in the summers.  It's not as if these demands can't be forecast and refining schedules adjusted accordingly.  But that assumes that oil companies want to keep prices low which I believe is currently a bad assumption.


    Parent
    But market is at work here (none / 0) (#198)
    by lilybart on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:23:02 PM EST
    AND supply and demand. Oil producers don't need to pump more oil, the price is making them rich now and if they increased supply, the price may go down and they will be less rich. In a capitalist country with privatized energy companies, that is life and there is no way to change it. No one can legally force them to refine more oil into gas. Only by taking over the oil companies....but we can't because we don't have the oil they are pumping and they are multinational and not really under our jurisdiction!

    Alternative energy is the ONLY solution.

    Or you could hope for compassion from the Saudis. Or peace in Iraq...hahahhaha

    Parent

    I don't know if the Tax Holiday is good or not (none / 0) (#53)
    by Florida Resident on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:07:55 PM EST
    but to think that the Oil Companies will not still raise their prices at the same rate wether the Tax Holiday is implemented or not is IMO naive.   They are going to raise the prices like they do every summer.  Remember that they want to continue increasing their record profits.

    Maybe (none / 0) (#61)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:12:26 PM EST
    (strictly rumor) - I read somewhere (don't know where) that some analysts are predicting $4 / gallon by Memorial Day and $5 / gallon by mid summer.

    Parent
    Where I live... (none / 0) (#63)
    by OrangeFur on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:13:18 PM EST
    ... we're already past $4.

    Parent
    deisel is 4 something here/approaching 5 (none / 0) (#68)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:16:33 PM EST
    I couldnt believe it

    Parent
    Yikes! (none / 0) (#69)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:17:14 PM EST
    I moved to DC last year, so I take the Metro, but I'm from Detroit.  In the 8 years of commuting there, I have never had less than a 30 mile commute one-way, and that was average for the Detroit metro area. I can't imagine paying $4 or $5 / gallon for that kind of commute.

    Parent
    ditto (none / 0) (#82)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:21:18 PM EST
    in some full serve stations it's 4.49-4.69!

    Parent
    IN CA (none / 0) (#138)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:59:59 PM EST
    Reg is already at 4.11 Diesal is 4.49.  Where I'm at is slightly lower as we ended up with a Costco that pushed prices down but we were historically the highest in the US (this includes Hawaii).

    Parent
    No! it will only be 4.82 cents by mid-summer (none / 0) (#199)
    by lilybart on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:24:21 PM EST
    at least that is what Hillary will do!  :)

    Parent
    BIg Oil is going to raise gas, diesel, heating oil (none / 0) (#179)
    by jawbone on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:06:58 PM EST
    as they feel necessary.

    Washington Week in Review reporter just said Big Oil is pumping 10% less oil from the ground -- don't need to pump more as their profits are so very strong.

    Parent

    Someone explain this to me. (none / 0) (#62)
    by OrangeFur on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:12:44 PM EST
    Hillary wants to suspend the 18-cent/gallon gas tax for the summer, and pay for it through a windfall tax on oil companies.

    The Obama campaign, with the backing of economists, say this is pointless. This will have no effect on gas prices, since a drop in prices will cause demand to rise, leading to an increase in prices.

    Fine. In other words, gas will cost pretty much the same whether the tax is 0 cents or 18 cents.

    Okay, now what happens if the gas tax is 30 cents, or 60 cents, or a dollar, or more? The same reasoning would indicate that prices should still be rather stable, no? And then the government gets the money, instead of the oil companies. So shouldn't Obama and economists be advocating raising the gas tax? If lowering the tax won't drop prices, why should raising it increase taxes?

    Or is it possible that while supply/demand effects will cause some mitigation of a tax raise/drop, that consumers will indeed get some benefit, while the oil companies shoulder the cost?

    Obama's response is to (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:16:03 PM EST
    dismiss it as "only like $30 in savings"

    To some of us, $30 is a lot.  Not to mention that the numbers he used were based on getting 1/2 a tank every other week on a small car.

    Parent

    over 7 gallons of milk (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:08:57 PM EST
    I'm sure many families wouldn't mind 7 gallons of milk for 'free'. And that's what it's getting down to for some. Fuel vs food.

    and think if they filled their tank more often because that is their reality.

    Parent

    As Bill Clinton said, having $30 extra a month (none / 0) (#192)
    by jawbone on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:15:30 PM EST
    might mean having gas to go to work AND to buy milk for the kids.

    People can't not go to work, and in many areas where the economically stressed live there is not much public transit. Housing is cheaper often the further from center city and work areas.

    So, a choice between transport and food is real for some of the economic edge.  

    Recently Bill Moyers did part of his Journal on how inflation is affecting poorer people.  In grocery story, mother wanted to by the gallon of milk bcz it was on sale; her kids wanted bagels which they hadn't had for a long time. Choice was put back the gallon, buy half gallon and bagels, or just the milk. There really are people who much make those finely calibrated buying decisions. They can't just whip out the plastic and put the groceries on the card; they have only a finite amount of money for food. And everything's getting squeezed.

    Hillary is offering a palliative, something to buffer the pain of the sharp price increases, not a long term solution.  She has energy proposals for long term change.

    Parent

    Exactly (none / 0) (#71)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:17:43 PM EST
    If Econ101 is applied we can tack on a 2 dollar a gallon tax on gas, and it will magically re-adjust to exactly what it was before, and that 2 bucks will come out of the oil companies profits.

    Let's do it!!!

    Not saying I've stopped listening to Krugman and others on this issue, but there's more to this story.


    Parent

    Econ 101 (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by OrangeFur on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:22:54 PM EST
    also says that raising the minimum wage will cause higher unemployment.

    Obviously things are more complicated than that.

    Parent

    Exactly. (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:25:39 PM EST
    Econ 101 tells us that union labor will lead to higher unemployment, which has been disproven historically time and again. Econ 101 tells us that immigration is responsible for the fact that CEOS make $40 mil.  Econ 101 is full of sh**

    Parent
    I don't think demand will rise appreciably. (none / 0) (#114)
    by Joan in VA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:39:15 PM EST
    Whoever could adjust their driving habits, already has. 18.4 cents savings doesn't seem like enough for anybody with a budget to start driving wildly all over the place.

    Also, whatever the market does it does, regardless. Whatever it is, it won't have 18.4 cents added to it. I don't get how they would raise the price because it doesn't have tax added.

    Parent

    And the people who do over-consume (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:52:45 PM EST
    Aren't going to be affected until gas is 10 bucks a gallon.

    That's one of the things that needs to be taken in to account.

    In order to make it less affordable for those who over-consume, you'll have to make it absolutely unaffordable for people who need to it to make a living.

    How do you solve that?  I don't know.  Gas stamps has been suggested.  Subsidize it up to a certain amount.  Anything over 12 gallons per week (240 miles for even a crappy gas mileage car), pay 40 bucks a gallon for it.

    Something like that.   I don't know.

    Parent

    Demand ALWAYS goes up in the summer (none / 0) (#202)
    by lilybart on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:45:26 PM EST
    vacation, teen driving to jobs season. Always. in fact, we are driving to a  neighboring state for a Fourth  of July vacation instead of flying somewhere, so there will be plenty of extra demand.

    Parent
    To introduce a bill you have to show up. (none / 0) (#106)
    by Ben Masel on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:35:12 PM EST
    Can Senator Clinton still find the building? Will the security guards remember her face?

    Probably (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:42:27 PM EST
    But I think Obama better make sure to have his ID card since he's missed the almost the most votes (second to McCain) in the entire Senate.

    Parent
    LOL, (5.00 / 4) (#137)
    by eleanora on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:59:36 PM EST
    I don't think Obama supporters want to go there, since your guy has missed 40.3% of the votes so far this year, just behind McCain @58.5%. And he missed even more in 2007--@77%. Who missed the least votes this time at 29.9%? That would be my girl. She also missed the fewest votes of any of the presidential candidates in 2007, @53.% :)

    Parent
    Ron Paul, Kucinich (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by Ben Masel on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:45:03 PM EST
    Are they still running? n/t (none / 0) (#180)
    by eleanora on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:08:34 PM EST
    Paul is. (none / 0) (#184)
    by Ben Masel on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:10:27 PM EST
    Sorry, my bad. (none / 0) (#187)
    by eleanora on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:12:35 PM EST
    I just looked at the Senators and foolishly skipped the House. So even before they dropped out or suspended, they did miss fewer votes. TY for correction :)

    Parent
    Masel is for Gravel (none / 0) (#153)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:12:58 PM EST
    don;t mess with Masel.

    Parent
    And slightly afflicted w/CDS maybe. (none / 0) (#159)
    by oculus on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:19:52 PM EST
    Most... (none / 0) (#165)
    by kdog on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:32:40 PM EST
    of us third party types are.

    CDS, ODS, MDS...but we don't call it derangement, we call it sanity;)

    Parent

    I WAS for Gravel. (none / 0) (#175)
    by Ben Masel on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:57:36 PM EST
    Now settling for Obama.

    Parent
    Hm. Both my Senators made 'em all. (WI) (none / 0) (#167)
    by Ben Masel on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:39:29 PM EST
    Why are you limiting your inquiry (none / 0) (#109)
    by oculus on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:36:37 PM EST
    to Senator Clinton?

    Parent
    Fair point.... (none / 0) (#116)
    by kdog on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:41:08 PM EST
    Clinton/Obama/McCain haven't been on the job full time in a year.

    But I found a better candidate...this guy.  I am convinced he'd be a 100% better president than any of the 3 stooges.

    Parent

    I recommend he ditch the black background (none / 0) (#123)
    by oculus on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:45:35 PM EST
    on his website.  Too difficult to read.  But then, so is that orange type on DK.

    Parent
    Dude, you're giving a new meaning to guts! (none / 0) (#127)
    by MMW on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:48:54 PM EST
    Obama and McCain have missed what...twice as many days/bills/sessions as Clinton? Some of you ...

    Parent
    When he next touts a bill (none / 0) (#171)
    by Ben Masel on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:52:58 PM EST
    he's about to introduce, I'll repeat the joke. Fair?

    Humour aside, just before the key FISA vote in Feb, I posted widely that if Obama missed it, I'd be picketing his Madison appearance. Had the sign made up, "Playing hookie on wiretaps?"

    He showed, voted, so I didn't use the sign. Sen. Clinton was only 12 miles away, thanking her MD volunteers according to Alegre, but skipped.

    Parent

    She wasn't needed was my understanding (none / 0) (#176)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:59:49 PM EST
    same excuse Obama uses when he ducks votes  ;)

    Parent
    I seem to recall Feingold (none / 0) (#183)
    by Ben Masel on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:09:55 PM EST
    asking them both to show.

    Having trouble crafting the rikght search terms to confirm.

    Parent

    no (none / 0) (#133)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:57:25 PM EST
       2. increases gas demand which will raise gas prices, offsetting some if not all of the minimal benefit.

    speculation

      3. sticker shock after gas tax holiday ends.

    so because it would end at some point there is no reason to do it

      4. increased consumption and in turn, increased greenhouse gases.>

    sepculation

       5. layoffs for road construction crews and further neglect of infrastructure (windfall profit tax is not going to pass if gas holiday passes)

    misinformation

      6. Democrat sides with Republican to double team likely Democratic nominee.

    just silly

    exactly (none / 0) (#146)
    by miguelito on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:02:59 PM EST
    everything every economist has ever said regarding taxes or any distortion on price has been that they have a negative impact and lead to dead weight loss, except for when Hillary supports a tax cut... Time to re-write those textbooks, gentlemen!

    Parent
    You know what's dumb (none / 0) (#152)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:09:23 PM EST
    If you buy the Econ101 logic on this you can't say this:

    Price won't be affected.

    And this:

    Demand will increase.

    At the same time without looking a little foolish.

    Parent

    "with us or against us" on tax holiday (none / 0) (#172)
    by magster on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:54:12 PM EST
    "us" being McCain and Hillary.

    At least when Obama plagiarizes a slogan, it's from another Democrat.

    Have you read this? (5.00 / 0) (#174)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:57:29 PM EST
    Seems he was for gas tax holidays before he was against them.

    Parent
    Us being the people/citizens (none / 0) (#177)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:01:26 PM EST
    not the Corporations.

    not hard to figure out really . . . The 2 have separate proposals.

    Parent

    How about FOR us? (none / 0) (#200)
    by lilybart on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:29:07 PM EST
    A gas tax holiday is a scam to get votes and only Obama had the guts to say no.

    Parent
    Following the growing failure of the Iraq war.... (none / 0) (#181)
    by Oje on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:08:53 PM EST
    The community-formerly-known-as-the-progressive-blogosphere  marshaled a "creative class" outcry against the very serious foreign policy experts who led us into Iraq War.

    I regard this issue in the same fashion. Neo-classical economic technocrats are always on-hand to provide their sagacious and scientific "consensus" on the Very Dire Consequences of Failing to Hold a PhD in Economics. Unfortunately, even among progressives, for folks like Atrios, Krugman, and DeLong, representative democracy ends right at the moment it approaches the Very Dire and Immutable Laws of Economics.

    It is not so much that there are laws and principles that economists agree on (see Greenspan spin in the political winds for 20+ years), it is that they resort to certain rhetorical tricks to shore up whatever side of a Very Dire Tax Proposal they support.

    Reduce consumer taxes, raise corporate taxes on "windfall profits" - that is nothing more than a "shell game," a political demagoguery. Reduce taxes to reduce prices, that only increases profits - political plutocracy. ("What stoopid plebs we economists must endure!")

    However, to support the first proposition, they must assert that there is no such thing as "windfall profits." Profits are the profits "that the  market will bear." To support the second proposition, on the other hand, they must assert that cutting consumer taxes can only produce "windfall profits."

    Oh, how Very Dire it is if we fail to heed the sagacious and scientific dictates of Teh Economists!

    cannot is always one word (none / 0) (#190)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:14:49 PM EST


    Matthew Yeglasias on raising the gas tax w/rebate (none / 0) (#201)
    by lilybart on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:43:16 PM EST
    Rob Goodspeed points out that we have substantial evidence that consumers bear only around half the burden of gasoline taxes over the long run, with the rest of the incidence falling on the oil companies. Here's one study:

    Using the estimated coefficients, we can determine the incidence of federal and state specific taxes. An increase in the federal tax by 1¢ raises the retail price by 0.47¢ and decreases the wholesale price by 0.56¢. Thus, consumers and wholesalers each pay roughly half of the federal specific tax.

    In other words, we really should be raising the gas tax. There are a billion reasons this won't happen, but if we were to raise the gas tax, then rebate half the revenues to citizens on some kind of flat per person basis, and make the other half available to fund transit projects, there'd be no net burden on the population, you'd create an incentive to use alternative forms of transportation where they exist, and you'd have a pool of revenue available to create alternative forms of transportation.

    is that what this race has become? (none / 0) (#205)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:17:43 PM EST
    you cannot criticize bad policy because it came from one of your own?  Pathetic and shameful.

    Bill Clinton said (none / 0) (#206)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:22:32 PM EST
    $30 for families.....The bill clinton I knew and loved said in the early 90's the best way to address a slumping economy is to raise taxes, not eliminate or lower them to fund R&D in the private sector via tax credits to create jobs.  What we need is government induced job creation to bridge through the cycle of job reduction in the private sector.  Bill was very astute on this during his presidency and if you go back and reread some of the transcripts from his debates with Bush I, he is very clear on the matter and very correct.  He said it and got elected.  BO or Hill should do the same.

    I'm personally of the opinion.... (none / 0) (#207)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:08:56 PM EST
    ...that it would be a good move to temporarilly repeal the tax only on diesel fuel. Unlike the gas tax, that would not increase demand. And it would lower costs on food throughout the economy. Granted, there wouldn't be a lot of direct political benefit to it.

    the only disagreement i have is to speak (none / 0) (#212)
    by hellothere on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:42:51 AM EST
    of house "leadership" when there clearly isn't any. and if it is, then clearly it has gone in the wrong direction. these dims deserve a revolt in the party and a kick in the back end.