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Tonight is Not Just About Delegates

The Obama camp wants you to believe this election boils down to pledged delegates. It does not. It comes down to the superdelegates.

Here's my view: If by June 3, Hillary can come within 100 pledged delegates of Obama, including those she won in Florida (leaving Michigan aside for the minute) and her popular vote total is close to or exceeds Obama's (including Florida and Michigan), the superdelegates can decide based on who they think is more electable against John McCain in November without fearing they are overturning the will of the people.

It's the superdelegates' duty, not just their perogative, to consider a variety of factors, only one of which is the pledged delegate total.

So don't get sidetracked by the pledged delegate discussion. It won't even be a deciding factor if on June 3, after the last state has voted, Hillary has less, but not a lot less of pledged delegates. It won't matter if her popular vote total, including the 2.3 million who voted in Florida and Michigan, approximates, equals or exceeds Obama's.

If Hillary wins Indiana tonight, she'll continue. And the superdelegates will decide the nomination, based on their consciences and their prioritizing of the various factors, of which pledged delegates is one, popular vote is another and electability in November is a third.

< Mapping Indiana | Afternoon Predictions: Thread Two >
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    If Obama loses IN tonight, (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by andgarden on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:43:55 PM EST
    even by a little, it will prove that he has absolutely not wrapped up this nomination. The unbeatable winner should not be losing competitive contests into May.

    He will be in serious trouble if he wins NC by less than 10 IMO.

    Trouble in what way? (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:52:01 PM EST
    You guys act like he's losing to some 3rd tier chump.  Hillary Clinton is a formidable opponent.

    He won't wrap up the nomination until June unless Hillary decides to concede before that point.

    Even if he wins tonight in both IN and NC, which is unlikely, he still won't have it wrapped up.  Unless  Hillary concedes.  

    Parent

    The trouble is (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by andgarden on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:54:25 PM EST
    that he's running out of opportunities to win this even if FL and/or MI is to be included. Yes, I'm speaking of popular votes, but also in terms of delegates, if we consider what's likely to happen in WV and KY.

    Parent
    OK (none / 0) (#24)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:00:21 PM EST
    But how does it swing for Hillary?  

    The remaining SDs are going to announce their intentions in June.  There will be very few SDs that won't do so at that time.  To believe that they will be willing to wait until the convention seems incredulous to me.

    So how does Hillary get those SDs to vote her way?  

    Parent

    In my opinion, she needs three things (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by andgarden on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:03:18 PM EST
    in June:

    1. to be Ahead in the Popular Vote including Florida and caucus estimates (per Jay Cost's spreadsheet).

    2. To be close in pledged delegates. (This will happen--watch KY and WV).

    3. To have an electoral map case to make to the superdelegates. (Markos knows this, which is why he fumbles around with incompetent and dishonest head-to-head comparisons of some states while leaving out other more important ones).


    Parent
    And (none / 0) (#43)
    by rnibs on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:18:50 PM EST
    he's limping horribly toward the finish line.  

    The bottom line is that even if he has more pledged delegates, right now he looks like a sure loser in the GE.  Unfortunately, I doubt that will sway the SD's.  They have some sort of strange blinders on that prevent them from seeing the obvious.

    Parent

    This is a common meme (none / 0) (#48)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:24:16 PM EST
    among Hillary supporters.  

    Obama is not going to lose in November.  Neither would Hillary if she were the nominee.

    The reason why this argument doesn't sway SDs is because it is not based on anything close to empirical observation.

    Parent

    This is your problem (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by andgarden on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:37:45 PM EST
    it is exceedingly obvious that Obama has a worse map than Hillary for november. You cannot lose OH and FL, and stand of a knife's edge in PA, and win.

    Parent
    So what if he does lose? (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Steve M on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:45:58 PM EST
    Are you going to be like "gee, sorry guys, I really thought my bold predictions would turn out correct"?  Or are you just going to blame Hillary?

    I keep running into more and more swing voters who are turned off by the Wright thing.  It's getting extremely depressing.

    Parent

    Unfortunately for Obama (none / 0) (#66)
    by jen on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:54:53 PM EST
    (and the Dem Party if he's the nominee) there is a whole lot about his Chicago pol days that has yet to come out.

    If he's the nominee, you'll see it. I already have seen pieces of it, and trust me, he couldn't win the GE against Elmer Fudd.

    Clinton hasn't said a peep about his ties in IL, but the Repubs won't hold back.

    Parent

    Oh, It Will (none / 0) (#71)
    by flashman on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:03:17 PM EST
    sway the SD's.  They aren't THAT blind.

    Parent
    How do you figure on #2 (none / 0) (#46)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:22:22 PM EST
    WV and KY have a total of 79 delegates.  If she gets 60% of the delegates that would mean she gains 15 delegates.  Let's say she does exceedingly well she would still only gain about 25-30 delegates on Obama.  

    What is close in pledged delegates?

    Parent

    She's going to win huge there (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by andgarden on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:38:20 PM EST
    Think Arkansas.

    Parent
    Hehn? (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Kathy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:01:29 PM EST
    You guys act like he's losing to some 3rd tier chump.

    Why does this matter?  Losing is losing.  He could be losing to a koala bear and it would still be losing.

    Parent

    wasn't an SD (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by Kathy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:50:35 PM EST
    quoted here the other day saying that she needed to get the pledged delegates to within 100, or close, and then the SDs would go for her?

    Anyone who thinks that Obama is the nominee needs to prairie dog their head out of the Obamahole and take note of the fact that, if in fact he had all the SDs, they would've already gone for him.

    They are waiting for something to happen--that something is for Clinton to break out, which is exactly what she's been doing.

    Kathy, I wish it were so, but.... (none / 0) (#78)
    by Camorrista on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:46:05 PM EST
    I posted the comment below in last night's AP poll thread, but I believe it's more germane here.  Please forgive the repetition.

    What worries is me is something Chuck Todd said last night to Charlie Rose--that most of the supposedly uncommitted/undecided superdelegates were, in fact, aching for any excuse to support Senator Obama.  

    Given Obama's lead in pledged delegates and the popular vote, Todd explained, only a only a double-win today for Senator Clinton--a "game-changer," in his words--would prevent the supers from flocking to Obama.  Neither polls nor arguments about demographics or electoral-college math would influence them.

    Todd's argument was that the dominant mood among the supers is Clinton fatigue--that the Clintons not only represent the past, but that President Clinton never benefited downstream Democratic candidates and neither would his wife.  The supers, he said, saw Clinton as the known risk and Obama as the unknown risk, and that they preferred the unknown--especially if the delegates numbers (and the press) gave them cover.      

    I do realize that Todd is very much the voice of Conventional Wisdom, but he's neither stupid nor out of touch, and if he's right--and, yes, I pray he's not--then I doubt the supers are waiting for Clinton to break out; more probably, they are waiting for Obama to do just well enough so they can go to him with their consciences clear.

    Parent

    I think she needs. . . (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:51:12 PM EST
    to be closer in delegates than she is now and at least arguably ahead in the popular vote (including Florida) to have any realistic chance of convincing superdelegates.  And Obama has to be in serious trouble in state-by-state fall polling.

    Right now most of the "buzz" momentum is still with Obama.  They may have about the same number of people voting for them, but Obama has the noisemakers, and they are going to have a disproportionate influence on super delegates.

    And folks in Florida who want Florida to count would be well advised to take loud, public action now to see that that happens.

    Agreed. (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by andgarden on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:55:40 PM EST
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Steve M on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:08:51 PM EST
    I agree with you completely.  God, the people I talk to these days, it's all about Wright, but I don't think the superdelegates are really in touch with what's going on.

    If Obama is the nominee, he better win, because it's going to be the ugliest thing ever on our side if he doesn't.

    Parent

    Brazile is on CNN saying (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by bjorn on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:53:41 PM EST
    This is all about math...the math...it is the math...if she says math one more time the tv might explode!  I think she wanted to take FL off the map to help Obama.

    She could ask Al Gore (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by misspeach2008 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:02:25 PM EST
    to show her how to speed up the polar ice cap melt and put the whole state underwater.  Other than that, I think she's going to have to deal with the votes from Florida counting. I don't see the nomination of either candidate being legitimate otherwise.

    Parent
    Then dump super-dels and just boot up (none / 0) (#36)
    by Cream City on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:09:12 PM EST
    a computer, Donna.  Or heck, all you need is a calculator.

    Actually, yes, the math is important -- but only the Electoral College math.  And the number is not 2025 or 2205 -- it's 270.  Just convince me that Obama can get that many EC votes, Donna.

    Parent

    When Hillary CRUSHES (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Mrwirez on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:55:35 PM EST
    Obama in West Virginia and Kentucky, that popular vote and delegate count will be much MUCH better!

    I do hope that this contest, (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by madamab on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:56:08 PM EST
    while very exciting, will lead to major primary reform in the future.

    I just don't think we should be so in doubt as to which delegate count and which popular vote count to use at this point. And we wouldn't be if our system weren't so complicated and game-able.

    The Big Lie (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by flashman on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:02:15 PM EST
    is that the campaign is static, and that only the criteria that mattered at the outset matters now.  So, as the delegate totals piled up, one of the candidates began to ramrod the idea that only delegates and number of states count.  Had either of the two remaining candidates won a majority of the so-called 'pleadged' totals, then the race would have been over on that metric.  However, neither could get to the "magic number", and not the SD's votes are crutial.  Jerayln is correct that the SD's will consider a number of factors, including electibility, momentum, popular votes and the projected electoral map.  Of the most rediculous argments I've heard is the "most number of states" one.  That's a phony-balony criteria, if there was ever one.

    Which side is pushing (none / 0) (#47)
    by Fabian on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:22:46 PM EST
    # of states?

    I always go with # of likely Electoral Votes.

    Parent

    The Obama Side (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by flashman on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:32:18 PM EST
    I've heard him brag about that a hundred times.  Well, it feels like a hundred, at least.

    Parent
    And it's pointless (none / 0) (#67)
    by nashville on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:56:35 PM EST
    to keep bragging about states than NO WAY will they will in the GE.  That I believe is the ultimate goal.  Battles are important but the war is the final outcome.

    Parent
    OT but MSNBC has just announced their (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Joan in VA on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:06:16 PM EST
    election coverage guests-Kerry, McCaskill, Clyburn and Daschle. How's that for fair coverage? HaHaHaHa...

    Clinton will continue (none / 0) (#2)
    by mffarrow on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:45:16 PM EST
    Whether she wins IN or not.

    Although it's moot (none / 0) (#3)
    by mffarrow on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:45:57 PM EST
    Since she'll win IN.

    Parent
    It's my opinion (none / 0) (#4)
    by andgarden on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:46:10 PM EST
    that she should probably drop out if she loses IN. I don't expect that, though.

    Parent
    Don't expect.... (none / 0) (#12)
    by magster on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:53:15 PM EST
    her to drop out if she loses? or don't expect her to lose? or both?

    I think she'll drop out after OR if she loses IN tonight.

    Parent

    Don't expect that she'll lose IN (none / 0) (#17)
    by andgarden on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:54:51 PM EST
    Outside a complete implosion by Obama-- (none / 0) (#5)
    by halstoon on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:46:57 PM EST
    which Wright did not bring about--the race may not end now, but it will end with Obama as the nominee.

    While he may lose whites, she will lose blacks, and though that may not affect the electoral vote, it absolutely will affect down ticket races, and the SDs are not going to risk that.

    Hillary needs Obama to collapse, and he's not doing it, imo.

    Obama has already collapsed (5.00 / 5) (#7)
    by Kathy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:49:06 PM EST
    and you need to get a current US census.

    Parent
    "just a flesh wound" (none / 0) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:50:51 PM EST
    Wright!!!

    Parent
    Ayers (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:01:32 PM EST
    may hit something vital

    Parent
    Maybe someone will ask Hillary (none / 0) (#42)
    by halstoon on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:17:28 PM EST
    about Bob Truehaft, the CA Communist she sought out for an internship, or just how much Saudi money went into building the Clinton Library and the CGI?

     Maybe they'll ask about Bill's buddy Giustra, and just what favors he'll get when Hillary's president. Or maybe they'll ask about Bill's good buddy Burkle, and what he and Clinton on their jaunts to Hollywood parties.

    Just how many women out there have stories about post-presidential Bill?

    You guys are so lucky Obama won't use this stuff. You're also lucky that the media is complicit in protecting Hillary b/c they see her as a victim of Bill.

    Parent

    LOL!! (none / 0) (#68)
    by jen on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:59:04 PM EST
    No, you guys are lucky Hillary hasn't used THIS. Do you think the Repubs will stay quiet about it?

    Parent
    In a skeleton contest, she wins hands down! n/t (none / 0) (#82)
    by halstoon on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:47:29 PM EST
    He collapsed? (none / 0) (#32)
    by halstoon on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:06:30 PM EST

     I must've missed it, b/c he's still going to win NC and IN is close.

    Collapsed would mean she blew him out in both. She couldn't even legitimately break 10 points in PA.

     Are you sure we're watching the same election? Her SDs are bailing and heading his way. His are staying put, and he's adding more.

    Where is this collapse you speak of??

    I am disappointed to see that you are okay with Clinton writing off the 14% or so of AAs in America. Very, uh, unity oriented attitude you have there.

    Parent

    oh, please (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Kathy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:20:37 PM EST
    I've read your posts, so don't lecture me on unity crap.

    The collapse comes by Obama's own prediction that he'd have this wrapped up tonight.  Did you not see his "leaked" memo predicting sweeping wins?

    If he's won this thing, then why does he keep losing?

    Parent

    He won Guam. (none / 0) (#51)
    by halstoon on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:29:48 PM EST
    He'll win NC.

    If he's collapsed, why is he still competitive?

    You have to have some pretty rosy lenses to think she blew him out in PA.

    Why can't she close the deal if he's a dead man walking?

    Unity crap indeed. I think BTD is wasting his breath. It clearly doesn't fly with this crowd!

    Parent

    Hahaha! (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Kathy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:33:56 PM EST
    Why can't she close the deal if he's a dead man walking?

    She is, fool!  Haven't you been paying attention?  This is what a winner looks like.

    Parent

    So a winner takes an a$$ whipping in NC (none / 0) (#81)
    by halstoon on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:46:02 PM EST
    and barely wins IN, if at all?

    Some winner, fool!!

    Parent

    He won Guam! (none / 0) (#53)
    by RalphB on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:31:28 PM EST
    OMG, those 7 votes are the deciding factor.  This is even weaker than the normal math junk.

    Parent
    The best part (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by cmugirl on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:54:02 PM EST
    500 votes are being challenged!

    Parent
    Nothing is settled until the convention (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Nadai on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:55:43 PM EST
    and unless you have psychic powers (in which case, why aren't you at the craps tables in Vegas?) you don't know what the SDs are willing to risk.

    Obama may end up with the nomination.  He may even earn it; stranger things have happened.  But he hasn't done it yet.  

    Parent

    If you think this will go to the convention, (none / 0) (#37)
    by halstoon on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:10:58 PM EST
    then you're one of few. This will be over by mid-June.

    As for betting, even after PA Obama is only paying 6/5, while Hillary is 3/1.

    If you only get $1.20 on a $1 bet, that's pretty much a sure thing, no?

    Parent

    Pledged delegates from Red states (none / 0) (#6)
    by nellre on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:48:19 PM EST
    Having pledged delegates from states that will definitely go to McCain in November are not of any real value to either candidate IMHO.

    Why Not? (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by flashman on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:28:32 PM EST
    Both states voted for Clinton in 92 & 96.

    Parent
    Delegates vs. Demographics (none / 0) (#15)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:53:56 PM EST
    We have learned one thing in this marathon, demographics determine destiny.  How will they let some artifice, that was created by a committee to run up against the reality of demographics and the electoral map?  

    I wonder if (none / 0) (#21)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:55:52 PM EST
    their not liking implied intimidation will be a factor for any of them?


    That's fine -- let's just do pledged delegates (none / 0) (#23)
    by Exeter on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:57:28 PM EST
    ...and not have the supers vote until the second ballot at the convention.  There will not be enough votes for either in the first ballot and on the second ballot, pledged delegates can vote for whomever they want.

    I think real convention (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:01:00 PM EST
    sounds exciting.
    I dont know what everyone is so afraid of.

    Parent
    60% of dems (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Kathy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:02:35 PM EST
    agree with you--that this should go on.

    Seems the only ones clutching the pearls right now are the ones who know that the longer this goes on, the more Obama loses.

    Parent

    I think (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Emma on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:07:19 PM EST
    it sounds exciting, too!  A relevant convention!  A battle to the end!  A stronger candidate!

    Parent
    A real convention made for terrific tv (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Cream City on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:13:20 PM EST
    even when the tv was only shades of gray (i.e., black and white) and a 15-inch screen.  I remember those days in my childhood and got addicted to this stuff then.

    The recent convention coverage, when everything was so set that networks hardly cared?  Pffft.  That's no way to get Americans, especially young future voters involved; sitcom reruns are better then.

    Make the convention as much fun to watch as the Olympics, when you're rooting for your side but you're not sure who will win.  And that's why we all tune in.

    Parent

    A forced concession (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by misspeach2008 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:42:36 PM EST
    in June - whether it is made by Clinton or Obama - is going to put salt in some very deep wounds.  A vibrant convention with an adrenalin rush from the excitement and a joint celebration by both candidates on the stage together when the outcome is known seems to me to be the better choice. There will be little excitement from the losing side for the general election if their candidate stands in front of TV cameras on an evening in June and says I withdraw.  

    Parent
    months before the convention (none / 0) (#59)
    by Emma on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:42:41 PM EST
    They can use the time to sell what a legitimate result at the convention would look like and work toward the processes being fully explained and transparent.  Then, whoever wins, it's legitimate and fair and unification follows.

    Parent
    Just another poor decision by the DNC (none / 0) (#69)
    by Joan in VA on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:00:26 PM EST
    for which the voters shouldn't have to bail them out.

    Parent
    Wasn't Hillary more than 100 supers ahead? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Seth90212 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:08:55 PM EST
    She is now less than 20 ahead. Hint: They like Obama more. Superdelegates will not save Hillary. She is the one pleading with them to wait because she knows most of them are leaning Obama. Nothing that happens today is going to change the superdelegate preferance for Obama. If Hillary is actually counting on a class of delegates (the majority of whom prefer Obama)as her last hope then she ought to get out. That means she has zero chance to win.

    boring troll. the math, they hate her heh (none / 0) (#50)
    by RalphB on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:29:27 PM EST
    So it's about who the SD"s like, personally? (none / 0) (#62)
    by MarkL on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:50:49 PM EST
    No other criterion matters?


    Parent
    I mention this because there are several (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by MarkL on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:52:06 PM EST
    SD's who say they are voting Obama because they don't like the way Hillary is campaigning.
    There is nothing in that sort of decision which involves respecting the will of the people---quite the opposite, in fact. And should Obama produce more SD's tomorrow after losing today, it will show even less respect for the will of the people, under any definition.

    Parent
    Obama will lose today? (none / 0) (#70)
    by Seth90212 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:01:33 PM EST
    Oh, I forgot, some states don't count. But they do to the SD's. SD's don't discount states and votors or certain demographics. The SD's are there to render independent judgment. Some will vote with their constituencies, others will not. Either way you cannot deny the overwhelming SD preferance for Obama. He has gone from over 100 down to less than 20 down.

    Parent
    Are you illiterate? Your reply is barely (none / 0) (#73)
    by MarkL on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:10:13 PM EST
    respondent.

    Parent
    Check your reading comprehension (1.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Seth90212 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:27:56 PM EST
    maybe you're the one who is illiterate.

    Parent
    Lanny Davis is on (none / 0) (#39)
    by waldenpond on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:11:41 PM EST
    Fox.  He's hearing they are closer than ever expected to be in NC to a single digit, don't expect to win.  IN: Obama spreadsheet would win because of Gary etc IN near Illinois.  

    Per Fox: rural areas not as high.  Gary etc turnout high.  What does that mean for Clinton?  Lanny you sound reluctant and unenthused.  Lanny says he gets this way every primary.  She's not dropping out, not Leahy, Richardson or anyone else.  He promises to be more enthusiastic later on.  (He's probably holding his breath like most Clinton supporters.)


    excuse the ot (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:30:53 PM EST
    did you realize it is the aniversary of Thoreaus death?


    Parent
    Shall we celebrate (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by misspeach2008 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:44:55 PM EST
    with a little civil disobedience?  (I live about 2 miles from Walden Pond.)

    Parent
    The thing that people keep forgetting (none / 0) (#63)
    by fuzzyone on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:50:52 PM EST
    Is that the SDs are not a unit that goes one way or another.  People keep saying the SDs will do X if Y.

    Let's say Obama is ahead by 100 pledged delegates and behind by the 15 SDs he is now.  According to RCP there are 268 unpledged supers.  Just to make up the gap Clinton would need 85, then another 92 to have a  win.  That means she would need about 66% while Obama would only need 35% of the remaining SDs to to beat her.  That seems a lot tougher than you make it sound.  The majority of SDs could buy Clinton's argument and she would still not get the nomination.

    (Math is not my strong suit so if I messed this up let me know.)

    Agree with you regarding SD "take" (none / 0) (#74)
    by AnninCA on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:14:44 PM EST
    and I believe that the SDs are pretty OK now that the biggest issues are Obama-generated.

    It has nothing to do with Hillary.

    The SDs are quite capable (none / 0) (#79)
    by kmblue on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:56:06 PM EST
    of following Obama off a cliff.

    If they do, Obama will lose the GE.
    Good luck with that, I say.

    Doesn't make sense (none / 0) (#80)
    by dmk47 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:06:57 PM EST
    Here's my view: If by June 3, Hillary can come within 100 pledged delegates of Obama, including those she won in Florida (leaving Michigan aside for the minute) and her popular vote total is close to or exceeds Obama's (including Florida and Michigan), the superdelegates can decide based on who they think is more electable against John McCain in November without fearing they are overturning the will of the people.

    Jeralyn, here's the thing. A supermajority of superdelegates have to agree with your view for it to be plausible. Not "the superdelegates," but a massive majority. In the same sense that if Hillary Clinton were to win remaining undeclared superdelegates by her Pennsylvania margin, she wouldn't come close to winning the nomination. And, plainly, there is no such supermajority.

    Likewise, we can keep doing this head-bashing-a-brick-wall thing about why you can't just manipulate vote counts to favor your candidate, but the salient point is that nobody outside the cocoon buys your math in the first place. (Likewise with shifting the magic number.)

    With the NC result it's over. Just over. It's been over since mid-February, but I suspect there are so many forks stuck in the Clinton campaign now, that a deluge of superdelegates is on the way. So the question is, are you ready to stop helping John McCain?