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Late Night: For Puerto Rico

Tomorrow it's on to Puerto Rico. Here's your last open thread of the evening.

BTD - I added my own choice, Maelo, el Sonero Mayor, the late great Ismael Rivera. The video has a clip of La Perla, in Old San Juan. It is on the flip side.

< Puerto Rico Goes to The Polls . . . | The Epitaph >
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    It's past midnight here (5.00 / 11) (#1)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:17:36 AM EST
    and I'm going to bed. I am toast.

    The Democratic Party died today on May 31st, 2008.

    Howard Dean, you must be soooooo FREAKIN proud of yourself...you and your so-called "democratic wing".

    The Obama wing looks like the Rethugs of
    2000.  Hope Utah and Idaho put Obama on their shoulders and carry him to the White House.


    'Tefloning' is a good word . Pushing, pushing too (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by andrys on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 05:52:51 AM EST
    NY Times says:
    As of Saturday, about 150 superdelegates remained officially uncommitted. Mr. Obama's supporters have been hammering away at them, urging them to move quickly to his camp.

    "A number of people have reported that various members intend to endorse AFTER the last primary," said one e-mail message to wavering delegates from Mr. Obama's supporters, its warning barely couched. "Those members need to understand that they won't get any visibility from that."

    Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico, who endorsed Mr. Obama nearly two months ago, recently called Gov. Bill Ritter Jr. of Colorado, who has yet to endorse a candidate. "Hey, Ritter!" Mr. Richardson said.
    "After June 3, it means nothing. Those who take a little bit of a risk, he'll remember you."

     But, ObamaTeam have been telling one and all they have the votes and that it's a done deal.

      If so, why are they hi-pressuring people to commit BEFORE the primaries are over ?   Have they just been trying to convince SDs they have enough so that they will vote rather than be "left behind" ?

      The NYTimes story continues:

    At least a dozen uncommitted delegates are viewed by both camps as almost certain to side with Mr. Obama once the primary season ends. But there are dozens of uncommitted superdelegates who resisted endorsements for reasons that are personal, political and pragmatic -- ranging from a fear of alienating contributors to reluctance among lawmakers from relatively conservative districts to be identified with either Mr. Obama or Mrs. Clinton.

    Wexler must have been shouting due to the pressure he felt that they must not allow full delegations as the Magic Number would have gone up that much more and already today he was pushing, pushing to get 4 more that Clinton had certainly earned, since she wasn't cleverly removing her name to please Iowa when no requirement was made to remove names.  In fact, the DNC put on at least Obama's name while they were looking at the time problems.

    Obama had to even confirm to someone he would not be removing his name but did on the last day, from what I read yesterday.

    Parent

    Tracking the Superdelegates - NYT (none / 0) (#120)
    by Josey on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:11:12 AM EST
    If you're right... (none / 0) (#142)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:36:15 AM EST
    than 5/31 is a beautiful day...one crooked party down, one to go.  

    If the republicans go down as well maybe we can finally get a government by, of, and for the people.

    Parent

    Since it's an open thread - (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Rhouse on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:21:45 AM EST
    I put this on another thread with an off topic warning, which I don't need to do here.  It's in ABCs' Political Radar and it's titled:

    "Obama Won't Wait for Clinton Concession."
    http://tinyurl.com/56gsyc

    It's just chock full of UNITY goodness.

    this sure doesn't make me (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:43:02 AM EST
    want to join hands and sing kumbya

    Parent
    Amazingly, the "Obama" camp (none / 0) (#134)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 08:21:56 AM EST
    continually says they are asking SD's to come forward and endorse him, and, only one or two do. That's amazing to me!!! They may all come eventually, but whatever is keeping them from doing so, and perhaps it's Clinton herself, it's one more day his numbers don't rise.

    Parent
    i finally got a job, yay (5.00 / 8) (#4)
    by boredmpa on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:37:55 AM EST
    Well, a paid internship with a capital planning group in SF.  About time...graduate in 2007, inducted into Pi alpha alpha (mpa honor society), and couldn't find remotely decent paying work or get an interview at city/state/fed level with my degree.  I've been doing QA work to barely pay the rent.

    It has been absolutely shocking to experience how govt HR ranks/rates people in a non-transparent process.  I mean, 3-4 months before even a phone call???  Even when you're "ranked" number 2 on their list?  

    My favorite was a posting on usajobs that had a 10 day window and suggested you hand deliver mail because the post office was unreliable...but also warned not to slide it under the door without obtaining the appropriate stamp first.  

    That and that USAJobs has a bug where it erases the hours worked on whatever i last edited...so HR wasn't ranking me competitively.  

    Sometimes i really wish i'd gotten an MBA, silly  me.

    Congratulations..!! (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:43:11 AM EST
     

    Parent
    I am happy for you. Best of luck. (5.00 / 4) (#32)
    by feet on earth on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:06:23 AM EST
    Excellent News for you! (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Jane in CA on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:57:43 AM EST
    Congratulations! My Masters degree is in Public Policy and Admin, but I opted to concentrate on the policy part, with a concentration in inferential statistics.

    Do you have a preference about whether to go into federal or state work?  I can tell you that federal pays more, but you don't get a defined pension plan with the feds anymore.  You still get a defined pension plan with the state, which means you can retire as early as 55, and take home a pension roughly equal to what you earned for a year at your highest level of pay.  

    Not a compelling argument at 25, I know, but one that gets more and more attractive the older you get :)

    Unfortunately, the most common entry level position for the State is the Staff Services Analyst classification, which starts out at about $44,000 annually.  Probably not enough to live on comfortably in San Francisco ...

    Parent

    well, i wanted federal/GAO (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by boredmpa on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:09:39 AM EST
    because i wanted flexibility for movement more than anything...and I like program evaluation.  My concentration was in public management and my mom is a preacher woman (effectively a non-prof executive), so it's a bit of a fit.  I just wasn't at all prepared by my program/peers for the difficulties I would face--I was prepped to find a job at 45+ without serious difficulty at the local or federal level.  And they kept harping on the retirement wave that was coming and how they needed new managers/analysts.  Pshaw.  

    As to state/local jobs...the state exam process as well as the non-centralized city application sites are a mess and not conducive to people navigating the hiring process.  So I applied to a lot of federal jobs, several SF ones, and a few in the surrounding cities--but not any state ones.  I didn't realize right off the bat that "open until filled" usually means either a) no budget or b) super picky (because it's probably not high turnover).  The PUC is the worst for that imho, and I'm through spending 3-4 hours refining a template/whatever for a position only to realize that has been open-until-filled for 2 years.  

    Anyway this process has been quite bizarre, but unless i hear from this year's career GAO group I'm probably going to stay in a city environment.  My internship is with the city, so i get to  network my way into a job.  I will feel bad when I benefit from the whole faux merit (it's such a joke/waste of money), but hell...I need to pay rent and eat without cashiers looking at me funny cause I have an EBT card.  

    It's a good thing i have a dark sense of humor :)

    Speaking of public admin, here's a bit of dark humor about poor survey design. This gem of a question is from the SF police dispatcher polygraph that a lesbian i know took:

    "Have you ever done anything that could be considered amoral?"

    they also told her she did bad on the poly (though she'd only smoked pot once in five years and was basically just have anxiety issues with the questions).  They also asked why she dressed the way she dressed.

    Parent

    Well, you've done your research (none / 0) (#145)
    by Jane in CA on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:28:43 PM EST
    It sounds as if you have a pretty good idea of where you want to go.  The GAO is very well respected -- and I say that as a state manager who has been forced to apply their somewhat flawed audit methodology and review instruments to my program statewide with very little advance notice :) My sense is that city and county jobs have become increasingly unstable as the economy worsens, but that may not be true in San Fran.

    If you are interested in program evaluation, and the GAO thing doesn't work out, and if you don't have a problem re-locating to Sacramento, I'd suggest that you check budget analyst positions at Department of Finance (DOF) or auditor positions at Bureau of State Audits (BSA).  

    These (along with Legislative Analysts Office) are considered the creme de le creme of State Service.  With DOF, you actually recommend, based on the merits of proposals put before you, whether the governor should fund said proposals in his budget or not.  That's a lot of power.  As a budget analyst, you work with a lot of high level people right away, and you get a lot of valuable experience.  One of my previous managers called it "boot camp for administrators," and I haven't heard anyone disagree with that characterization.  The downside is that you work incredibly long hours, but DOF analysts usually promote very quickly to management in the programs that they oversee.  

    The exam is ongoing, but I believe it's only held in Sacramento.  The testing is quite rigorous, I believe, but you should be fine with your background.  You make a decent wage with this job -- about $56,000 annually plus overtime. Anyway, here's the site: DOF.  Click on assistant finance budget analyst exam on your right for more info.

    Bureau of State Audits is set up a bit differently.  They don't pay as well as DOF, but they rapidly promote you if you show aptitude, so you can end up earning a great deal more than you started at very quicky.  Like DOF, BSA is known as a "stepping stone" agency to promotions in other departments.  Here's the link: BSA.  I've linked you directly to the contact page.  Warning:  Be careful!  I've spoken to Mr. Fowler and he is very persuasive.  

    Here is the ongoing Staff Services Ananlyst (SSA) internet exam, if you have any interest in that. With a Masters, you should do well on this exam and you can take it online.  The SSA may not pay well, but the benefit of this job is that there are positions all over the state in any area that you might want to work: SSA. Don't worry about the salary range lsited as it applied only to range A -- as a college graduate, you would be coming into the job at a range C, or about $3658 per month.

    I also have some contacts with a prominent local consulting firm that is always looking for good associates.  They start at about $60,000 (I think), with great benefits and bonuses but, like DOF, you work long hours with lots of travel -- this firm travels all over the United States doing consulting and auditing.  Ask Jeralyn for my email if this is something that may interest you.  I can put you in touch with a senior associate there.

    Anyway, good luck, and I hope this information is helpful in designing a back-up plan.

    Parent

    thanks a lot for the advice (none / 0) (#147)
    by boredmpa on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:32:49 PM EST
    The state level has really been a blank to me, since most of my peers were federal or local/regional.  I'll definitely look at the DOF/BSA websites and may shoot you an email if SF isn't a fit (I come from startup land, so long hours and a can-fix attitude are enticing...it's just that I like a little meaning to go with my hours).  

    That's an awfully convenient exam link, I suppose I'll take it :)  

    Devil's advocate, but I think the GAO has a little too much prestige for its mission (which from the  few reports I've seen seemed fairly conservative or incremental) and wondered aloud in class who reviewed their best practices (to the shock of my prof).  Sure, they clean the questions asked by congress and try to depoliticize investigations, but the area of inquiry comes from the political side for most of the reports.  And on the ground, their role (in some cases) seems to be that of many consulting organizations; they provide cover for what people already want.  I suppose it's a win-win situation for managers that don't want to rock the boat themselves and need cover from someone else (i interned at a fed agency that worked that way).

    For the record, I'm interning with reconstituted capital planning program in SF.  It was established in 2005 and is thus a very interesting place to be in terms of organizational growth/change.  I could geek out forever on the issues that office deals with...

    Sacramento wouldn't be a problem for me I don't think, though I might be baked by the sun and dating might be a little off (are there actually gay men and/or andro women up there?)  :P  I'm (sadly?) not interested in robbing the cradle at UCD.

    Parent

    No Problem (none / 0) (#149)
    by Jane in CA on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:07:43 PM EST
    We policy wonks need to stick together :)

    LOL regarding the dating scene. I'm not gay, but anecdotally speaking, there appears to a very flourishing lesbian scene happening in the capital. I don't know if that extends to gay men as well, but my friend at the consulting firm I mentioned might know about that as she works and is good friends with several gay men.  

    Parent

    Question.... (none / 0) (#143)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:41:45 AM EST
    why work for the government then if it's such a hassle?

    Anytime I was outta work, and sincerely wanted to work, I had a job within a week or 2 tops.  By pounding the pavement.

    I had people always harpin' on me to take the civil service exam...I was like "I can't stand the government, why would I wanna work for them?  I just want them to leave me alone"

    Parent

    i didn't know ahead of time (none / 0) (#148)
    by boredmpa on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:01:12 PM EST
    And then I thought the first couple no-responses were a fluke.  The message from peers and profs was strong...the message from the gov agencies was non-existent.  I ended up doing underpaid and underemployed research work and underemployed but well paid QA work.  Anyway, the decision to abandon a career change, make under 30k in SF at a research position (with no option but to go back to school), or join the peace corps is a tough one.  

    In my prior field, software development, there is no pounding the pavement.  There's some networking, but if you were already a jr programmer and had just been in school for something else, then you're too out of touch.  That, and once you've been a programmer you really have to work hard to convince someone that Yes, you really want to do QA/tech support.  It's somewhat like a doctor deciding to be a lab tech.

    Anyway, there was also a lot of bad timing in the market with my career/experiences; I know I'm an edge case.

    Parent

    Thank you.... (none / 0) (#150)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:38:34 PM EST
    makes sense to me now.

    One good thing about being a jack-of-all trades is work ain't that hard to find when you need it.

    Parent

    something funky up (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by JJHat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:45:55 AM EST
    noquarter.net seems to have been compromised, maybe. I'm only getting a page that says "It works."

    http://noquarterusa.net/


    Lol. They must REALLY (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by LoisInCo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:48:04 AM EST
    want that tape of Michelle hidden.

    Parent
    Please (5.00 / 6) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:59:56 AM EST
    Enoought about the crazy BS so called tape. I have seen these comemnts here and frankly, I am sick of it. If there is a tape, we'll discuss it when it comes out.

    In the menatime, this is incredibly unseemly.

    I can not speak for Jeralyn but I do not want to hear about it again.

    Parent

    Understood. (none / 0) (#27)
    by LoisInCo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:01:25 AM EST
    Nor are we hosting links to (none / 0) (#40)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:18:26 AM EST
    that video making the rounds of the angry New Yorker  at the meeting today who made a racially charged comment about Obama. It's on other sites, you can view it and comment there.

    Parent
    Thanks for the music (none / 0) (#140)
    by talex on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:50:09 AM EST
    but where is Hector Lavoe? The Fania Allstars?
    Willie Colón? And how about Ray Barretto?

    Parent
    huh...just was gonna post that (none / 0) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:46:52 AM EST
    they were saying they will have tape Monday at 9:00 am.  Ha...ha.I admit, I go and look.  

    Parent
    what tape? (none / 0) (#10)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:47:30 AM EST
    The infamous (none / 0) (#13)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:50:11 AM EST
    Michelle channeling Rev Wright tape,  been talked about fore weeks at no quarter.   Don't sort of like it, but...curious.  

    Parent
    Yeah that site makes (none / 0) (#15)
    by LoisInCo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:52:15 AM EST
    me squeamish but, they actually do have things that get picked up by the news.

    Parent
    I still think there is no tape (none / 0) (#17)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:55:18 AM EST
    simply because we haven't seen it yet. That would be just too tempting to not have out there. And if there isn't one, then perhaps no quarter is making some drama. Let's see if they all the sudden say the tape was stolen or some such. Who knows.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#20)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:56:39 AM EST
    I will bet cash money that this ain't gonna happen.

    You get the smear out there, though, and some people will start to believe it, which is the whole point.

    Parent

    there is a certain value in.... (none / 0) (#39)
    by p lukasiak on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:18:24 AM EST
    ...creating a market for a product before it is released...

    I mean, we all KNOW about the tape that we can't talk about now.... and so does everyone else.  So when its released, it immediately goes viral...

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#42)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:20:14 AM EST
    Yeah, that must be it.  Because otherwise there would just be NO audience for it!

    I hope you're goofing around here.  There is no tape.

    Parent

    no I'm serious.... (none / 0) (#51)
    by p lukasiak on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:41:01 AM EST
    its a really really smart way to maximize the damage that a tape like that can do.

    its media management 101... create the demand for the product before you release it.  Why do you think studios spend so much money weeks, sometimes months, on advertizing for a movie before it gets released?  

    Parent

    Dude! (none / 0) (#53)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:53:30 AM EST
    There is no tape.  And even if there was, BTD has politely asked everyone to stop posting about it.  You are actually hurting me in a very reality-based place here.

    Parent
    and there was nothing said about any (none / 0) (#118)
    by andrys on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:00:09 AM EST
    tape being made available.  It just hints at wowdom of contents and it means absolutely nothing if it is quotes from "it" by one of the alleged Republican contacts who insists it's real.

    That would be awful if this is a Repub trick and people start falling all over it.

    Two youtube talkers were deemed 'courageous' to make speak-out tapes about things that were happening and I just found those  unspeakably bizarre, and if they were indicative of the quality of this news Monday, it's not looking too promising...

    Parent

    I also doubt anything is there... (none / 0) (#57)
    by OrangeFur on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:03:19 AM EST
    It's certainly put up or shut up time for Larry Johnson, though.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#69)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:22:18 AM EST
    BOTH would be an acceptable resolution of that choice, as well.

    Parent
    They have server issues (none / 0) (#99)
    by daria g on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:12:43 AM EST
    Should be down for four hours or so while they're working on that (per post on another blog).

    Parent
    NQ is back up. (none / 0) (#103)
    by themomcat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:19:57 AM EST
    Or it was (none / 0) (#105)
    by themomcat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:22:16 AM EST
    I tried to refresh the page and got the error message. i guess they are still having server issues,

    Parent
    wow (5.00 / 8) (#22)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:57:12 AM EST
    aren't you tired of blaming Clinton for everything under the sun?  There has been sexism in this campaign.  Show me one link where she says it explains why Obama has the pledged delegate lead?  Show me one link that has Clinton supporters saying, Hillary told me to cry sexism so I am?  

    If Obama wants to lead he better start doing it. And his supporters need to find another outlet for their anger besides Clinton.

    Creative class (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:12:51 AM EST
    cannot even do a link properly....geepers creepers, even us long the tooth ones can do it.  HUH.  

    Parent
    I have learned, too. My son laughs (none / 0) (#135)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 08:28:15 AM EST
    when I use "internet lingo" and tells me how savvy I've become. I'm learning more and more each day!!!

    Parent
    I asked for a link where Clinton (none / 0) (#37)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:14:21 AM EST
    claims she is behind in delegates because of sexism.  These links don't do that.  They help prove that there has been sexism, a lot of it.  But I have never heard Clinton or a surrogate claim it explains the delegate difference.  Take your hate somewhere else.  It is not healthy.

    Parent
    Hmm. (none / 0) (#38)
    by gmo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:17:34 AM EST
    None of those links seem to address bjorn's point:  when did Clinton herself attribute her results in the nominating process to sexism, or order her people to say so?  

    Saying that there have been numerous sexist attacks on her, and calling them offensive (true and true) , versus correlating those attacks as reason for voting results (arguable) are two separate things.

    Parent

    What a disgusting comment (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:57:20 AM EST
    You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

    Heh (5.00 / 9) (#26)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:00:33 AM EST
    Over on MyDD, Alegre posted a comment saying today's result was about as legitimate as if they'd mugged Hillary on the street and stolen her purse.

    Someone called her comment a dog-whistle.

    Love this primary!

    No doubt (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by daria g on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:14:19 AM EST
    All these dog whistles and I've yet to meet a dog, just more creative (writing) class churning out elaborate explanations for the whistles.

    Parent
    The irony is (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:57:09 AM EST
    the same person who unearthed that hidden racism will be back tomorrow, mocking Clinton supporters for the outrageous suggestion that there has been sexism in this primary.

    Parent
    We'll soon find out (none / 0) (#30)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:04:30 AM EST
    that Bernie won the election!

    (since we're doing movies.)

    Parent

    LOL, a little old lady dog whistle? (none / 0) (#123)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:31:18 AM EST
    ...that's quite a stretch and a preview of what we are in. I wish Obama would send a message to his supporters to stop this. It's not winning any friends for him.

    Parent
    3 cheers for Jeralyn, BTD, & Back from Ohio! (5.00 / 6) (#28)
    by gmo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:03:13 AM EST
    On this open thread, a huge thanks to all of you at TL for the realtime coverage all day today.  All that coverage, and dealing with technical issues to boot...

    Thanks!

    ditto (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:05:26 AM EST
    The Chicago Tribune asks: (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:01:40 AM EST
    "What message does Obama's resignation from Trinity United send?"

    Interesting comments here

    Nice to see a little of the local perspective.


    What's comical... (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by OrangeFur on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:08:36 AM EST
    ... is how quickly the Greatest Speech Ever has quickly become obsolete and irrelevant. The Obama fans in the media rushed to declare it historic, and two months later, it's Republicans who keep quoting from it to attack Obama.

    Obama said he didn't denounce the church, nor the congregation. I'd like him to explain how the behavior shown by the church's leaders and members last Sunday can be explained.

    Parent

    Yeah (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:27:32 AM EST
    There's way too much of an echo chamber effect on the blogs.  "All my friends say the Wright issue is dead, so it's dead!"  Sigh.

    I don't think any of this stuff matters in the slightest except as it pertains to electability (by which I mean, none of this suggests to me that Obama is anti-American or any of that crap).  But I'm amazed at the people I talk to, intelligent people who ought to be voting Democratic this year by all rights, who tell me stuff like "those 'bitter' comments really upset me."

    I hate to think that elections could still be decided by trivia like that, when there's so much else facing this country.  But all you have to do is open your ears to confirm that it's a problem.  I'm thinking the party should change its symbol from a donkey to an ostrich, there's so much denial on display in this primary.

    Parent

    I agree and disagree... (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by OrangeFur on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:46:24 AM EST
    For the most part, I agree that elections should be decided on substantive issues--I mean, who doesn't? Of course, based on those, I think Hillary Clinton is the best candidate this cycle.

    On the other hand, I can understand why what may seem less important take on more importance for some people. I think it comes down to feeling valued and respected.

    Comments like "bitter/clinging to guns and religion/antipathy towards people who are not like them" strike home because they make people justifiably feel that Obama thinks he's better than them. (I think they're probably right.) It doesn't help when there's a widespread perception that coastal liberals look down on those in flyover country.

    Similarly, hearing Wright and Pfleger talk, and hearing Democrats and the media make excuses for them leaves the implicit idea that it's okay for people to say that white people are racist and privileged, when a lot of working class people think that's the last thing they are. Loose talk about Clinton's huge margins in West Virginia and Kentucky and how it's all because of prejudiced rednecks doesn't help either.

    I don't think Obama is anti-American at all, nor do I believe he shared Wright and Pfleger's more hateful views. But his comments about small-town voters and his association with these clergyfolks make people think he isn't much offended by what they say. And since these voters are the ones being criticized by what they say, they feel disrespected. And they go vote for someone else.

    Parent

    What's sad is that (5.00 / 5) (#96)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:01:17 AM EST
    I don't feel a sense of warmth from Obama.  

    A couple of months ago, McCain went and visited places where people won't vote for him.  He didn't care.  He spent some time, bought some quilts, supported some local causes.  I think he really likes the people who live in this country.  I think he cares about them.  

    The same with Hillary.  She's not all about politics.  She does a lot of other things and I think she also likes and cares about the people who live in this country.  

    I just don't get that "warm" feeling from Obama.  Even when he went bowling, it looked and felt awkward.  Does he genuinely like and care about all of the people in this country?  He should.  He wants to be president of all of us.  

    From comments he and Michelle have made I feel like he is kind of out of touch with a lot of the people that live here.  A lot of his "words" are inspiring but they do little to solve problems.    

    Gosh!  I wrote all this and I really really hope Hillary can pull some sort of miracle.  I hope she gets 90% of the vote in Puerto Rico!  

    Parent

    For some people, I believe, they (none / 0) (#136)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 08:36:46 AM EST
    vote person, some vote party, some vote country. I will vote the latter this year and I have been a loyal, always came back dem. But, I, unlike a lot of my friends don't follow politics like I do and only know the perimeters. "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

    Parent
    Heh! (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:30:00 AM EST
    Greatest Speech Ever.  Is any of it even relevant anymore?  

    If he gets elected, we face four years of brilliant speeches and spineless policy.  That ought to make Nancy and Howard happy.  :)


    Parent

    Ah, yes, The Speech (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by daria g on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:16:25 AM EST
    I can't remember what he said but on another (free-for-all) discussion site I read, there was an entire long thread where many folks were falling all over each other to declare it one for the history books, the most brilliant speech they'd ever heard, a landmark for this country, and on and on.

    I pointed out that we should probably step back a bit and see if it does anything before declaring it important and historic.  Still waiting..

    Parent

    interesting timing (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:11:41 AM EST
    given the small AA percentages in the remaining states. Yet another thing under the bus. Chicago politics is even more of a contact sport than most I think. Probably will be good for him in the long run. Unless it ticks off members, pastors, or ex pastors of that church into saying something.

    Parent
    Speaking of under the bus . . . (5.00 / 5) (#65)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:15:23 AM EST
    from the articles comments:

    How the h*ll did Obama fit all 8,000 members of Trinity under the bus?!

    seems to be a common thought these days.  . . .

    Parent

    can't resist (5.00 / 5) (#67)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:19:28 AM EST
    "No one has put more people under the bus than me." Snark.

    Parent
    May I put that on a t-shirt? (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:21:07 AM EST
    yes (none / 0) (#78)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:29:19 AM EST
    though you might change the "one" to "candidate". Or not. Paraphrase or use as is with my blessing. It is a good one.

    Parent
    Where snark is it will (none / 0) (#82)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:37:31 AM EST
    have a nice Obama logo (slightly altered of course!) ;)

    Thanks! It totally cracked me up. Heck, even the media is noticing the "bus". What was funny was them trying to figure out if McCain threw Hagee (sp?) off the Straight Talk Express or under it  ;) Obama has popularized bus throwing, that's for sure. I should have a running list down the back of the T-shirt like they do for concerts only with all the under-the-bus people listed, lol!~

    Parent

    At least it didn't take McCain (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by themomcat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:46:04 AM EST
    20 years and tens of thousands of dollars to toss Hagee and Parsley off the bus.

    Parent
    or (none / 0) (#91)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:47:27 AM EST
    have a running list of things "no one has done more than him" about on the back of the t-shirt.

    I thought that was the beauty of it was combining the two things: his bragging that no one cares more about ... or no one has done more about ... combined his willingness to throw everything and everyone under the bus.

    Oooh, maybe two lists, one with the things under the bus, juxtaposed with all the things Obama is best at or has done more than anyone else.

    OK, more editing. Now I'm liking: "No one has thrown more people under the bus than me" - Obama(logo)

    Like Garrison Keillor always says about his books, they're never really done, he reserves the right to edit them and change them forever. :-)

    Parent

    That's the joy of Obama (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:55:08 AM EST
    he's unlimited for t-shirt fodder, lol!~

    I have several ones that need producing and I have time this week. I let ya know when I get this one done and I'll link ya to the graphic when I see ya here :)

    'k off to bed for me. Mtg tomorrow and I want to be slightly alert!~

    Parent

    Obama missed his calling (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by themomcat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:27:20 AM EST
    He should have gone into Mass Transportation because besides all of his church, he has tossed all HRC supporters and come November his supporters.

    Parent
    Obama missed his calling (none / 0) (#75)
    by themomcat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:27:46 AM EST
    He should have gone into Mass Transportation because besides all of his church, he has tossed all HRC supporters and come November his supporters.

    Parent
    I think the bus (none / 0) (#80)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:34:17 AM EST
    is a train now.  The Soul Train.  <snark>

    Parent
    He's like the (5.00 / 5) (#81)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:36:13 AM EST
    poster boy for outsourcing:  "I've never met a person who wasn't expendable."  

    Parent
    "Boy" "Soul Train" (none / 0) (#97)
    by Curious on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:06:59 AM EST
    Is this an acceptable way to talk about Senator Obama?


    Parent
    Here we go again (5.00 / 6) (#108)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:54:50 AM EST
    Now "poster boy" has been unearthed as a supposedly racist comment.

    I am proud to be a Democrat, but I think I am going to turn in my liberal license soon.  How embarrassing.  At least I know we'll win the November election, as we proudly shame the GOP into silence by pointing out the hidden racism in every sentence out of their mouths.  That has to be a winning strategy.

    Parent

    Maybe one or the other... (none / 0) (#113)
    by Curious on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 04:25:32 AM EST
    ...gets the benefit of the doubt but both together in successive posts needs challenging, in my view.

    As for winning in November in my view all it will take is the supporters of both candidates getting behind the one who has been selected and putting the arguments for that person and repeatedly pointing out the terrible mess that the Republicans have made, both politically, and economically inthe US and around the world.

    Parent

    Like American from American Bandstand is a slur (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Ellie on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 07:54:03 AM EST
    Excellent catch, Bub!

    Poster boy/girl/child are just as heinous!

    In passing, since non-votes and delegates that other candidates won are being stuffed into his column, is everything always ever officially about Obama except for stuff he himself actually said and did?

    Better rush the waffle before it's toast.  

    Parent

    I was a little torn over the whole thing. (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:24:20 AM EST
    I think he should have left the church about 19 1/2 years ago.  Since he didn't, he should have shown a backbone and defended the church.  The third thing he could have done was confronted the congregation about racism because he is supposed to be "the one who can bring us all together."  

    Instead, he took the wimp way out.  

    I really don't want to even imagine this guy trying to negotiate with foreign leaders -- not even our friends.  He's just such a novice!

    Parent

    Grece, I think there is another context in which (none / 0) (#139)
    by feet on earth on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:06:34 AM EST
    the average TV viewer responds to the late video of the shocking and malign performance of a catholic priest arousing the Black Liberation Theology's congregation that Obama belong(ed).  

    We political junkies look at this from a political perspective. The average person (who will be the average voter in the GE) see this from a human value perspective and from what is an acceptable behavior perspective.  It is not so much the priest that is the issue here, it is the dynamic between the speaker and the congregation, the reciprocal feeding between the two of horrific dark theater culminating in a crescendo of applauses and laughters that average people find disturbing.

    The media coverage avoids to highlight this dynamic by focusing on the priest to channel the disturbed reaction of viewers away from the congregation and from the religious teaching of the TUCC based on the Black Liberation Theology.

    It is not Obama's personal association to pastors or priests who teach that doctrine the main issue, it is the Obama family embrace of it that, if and when fully understood, will create serious problem for Obama political quest.  

    Already a large number of videos on youtube exist on this and I am sure that it will be exposed again and again to seriously damage him as a presidential candidate.  

    Obama finally withdrew is membership form TUCC because of the damaging behavior of its congregation of which his family has been a long standing member.  I do not think that his withdrawal will do much as an antidote of the gut-level disturbed reaction of the avere voter.    

         

    Parent

    another interesting comment (none / 0) (#122)
    by Josey on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:15:04 AM EST
    >>>Obama listened to Wright's rhetoric for 20 yrs and it didn't bother him, until it affected his run for the top office of our land. Obama is nothing more than a snake oil salesman, what a fraud, and how stupid are the people who support the "media darling"?


    Parent
    Props To Jeralyn and BTD (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by Jane in CA on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:08:45 AM EST
    Thanks for the live blogging and excellent analysis of the arguments made today.

    I still can't believe how lucky I am to have found this place -- I was googling "popular vote" a couple months ago, and this site came up in my search results.  I ended up reading the commentary and comments for hours ... you two are simply the best, and your commenters are intimidatingly well-informed.

    here here! Thanks J and BTD and everyone! (n/t) (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:12:32 AM EST
    On a different note (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by michellemarie on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:14:36 AM EST
    does anyone find it interesting how the media spent soooo much time on the Father Pfleger issue? Honest to god, no Hillary supporter in the media pushed this issue. CNN and MSNBC spent a lot of time on the issue. People have brought up that the new controversy allowed Obama to formally renounce TUCC. If true, the media is officially the propaganda arm of the Obama campaign.

    Obama is still the media darling (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:24:38 AM EST
    to be sure. And this sort of thing is very difficult for the Clinton campaign to push. Especially as this guy is not Obama's paster, though he was an advisor. And especially as I think negative campaigning is not possible for Clinton now.

    So it's up to the media, which so far still loves him. I'm sure that dynamic will change for the GE (assuming the nominee of course). If it changes a lot, it's going to be a train wreck. If he stays the media darling like he is now, then the repubs and McCain will have the same problems Clinton had, and Obama will win. We'll see.

    Parent

    Can we ask General Secretary Howard Dean (5.00 / 6) (#100)
    by OrangeFur on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:13:44 AM EST
    and the rest of the Politburo to simply announce the results of all of the 2012 primaries on January 1, 2012, and save us all the trouble of actually voting next time? If necessary, I'm sure we can appoint a Congress of People's Deputies to approve the Politburo's decisions.

    Open Thread: Sen. Clinton is going to fight . . . (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by wurman on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 04:45:59 AM EST
    . . . Apparently there will be a battle before the Credentials Committee at the Convention.  

    To me, from:

    Maggie Williams, Campaign Manager5/31/2008 9:33:30 PM
    Hillary has consistently stood up for the voters of Michigan and Florida.  She, like you, has insisted that the voice of all Americans be heard.  Today, the DNC's Rules and Bylaws
    Committee announced their decision on seating Florida and Michigan's delegations. In recent days, almost 350,000 of Hillary's supporters wrote in to the committee to make clear what an important principle it is for our party to count every vote.

    Harold Ickes and Tina Flournoy made the following statement:

    [snip]
    The Committee awarded to Senator Obama not only the delegates won by Uncommitted, but four of the delegates won by Senator Clinton. This decision violates the bedrock principles of our democracy and our Party.
    We reserve the right to challenge this decision before the Credentials Committee and appeal for a fair allocation of Michigan's delegates that actually reflect the votes as they were cast.

    It appears as if Denver will be pier 6 brawl & not a coronation.

    Go Hillary.

    Unity Pony Watch (5.00 / 3) (#116)
    by Fabian on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 05:33:43 AM EST
    No Unity Pony this past week.  Certain Supporters continues to blame Hillary Clinton for the delay in Unity Pony deliveries.

    Personally, I think the demand has overwhelmed the supply.  People want real Unity Ponies, not imaginary ones.  People want a permanent Unity Pony, not one that whickers soft nothings in their ears and vanish.

    I'm hoping to go to Denver. (5.00 / 4) (#119)
    by magisterludi on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:01:04 AM EST
    We discussed it last night. One of us (my husband or me) has to stay home and care for the beasts.

    This is bigger than the candidates. Yesterday Salon's War Room described the scene of the black limousines carrying the RBC members rolling past protesters calling for counting the votes.
    These people came from all over the country, many on buses (no, not paid for or organized thru the Clinton campaign) to stand in the pouring rain with their signs as the RBC  limos (with tinted windows, no doubt) roll by.

    That image of the democratic party tells it all.

    Parent

    I'm all out of unity ponies ... (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:55:36 AM EST
    had some in stock earlier this year.

    But sent them all back as "defective."

    I'm promised another shipment.  But I'm not holding my breath on ever receiving it.

    Parent

    Don't Obama supporters understand ... (5.00 / 5) (#126)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:51:04 AM EST
    that what the RBC did yesterday the Republicans are gonna use against Obama.

    It's the kind of thing Republicans just love to tar Dems with.

    No (5.00 / 7) (#128)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 07:17:03 AM EST
    they don't. They'll be completely clueless until the results start rolling in on election day.

    Parent
    Sad ... (5.00 / 4) (#130)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 07:39:13 AM EST
    but probably true.

    Most of them seem completely clueless regarding US political history.

    Parent

    Just practicing some .... (5.00 / 5) (#129)
    by coolit on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 07:29:11 AM EST
    rational talking points, because i have to go to breakfast with 2 rabid obama supporters:  my dad and brother.

    1.  It was very sad to see a committee member crying because she has to be a part of the unity vote for the 51%.  She was crying because she had to support something she didn't believe in, in the name of electing obama.  Is that something this man of inspiration and oration and change should want, or need?

    2.  The speech by Senator Joyner was one of the most amazing, impassioned, reasoned, and logical speeches I have ever heard.  I don't know how the committee could listen to that speech and then numbly talk about rules when it comes to Florida.  

    3.  Obama took votes away from Clinton due to exit polling.  Is this legitimate?  For everyone crying about legitimacy, do they still care?  Does the amazing Obama fight for legitimacy?  


    Good luck, coolit (none / 0) (#133)
    by suki on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 08:06:42 AM EST
    Which committee member was crying?
    I had to stop watching early on - couldn't stomach it. Thank God for Talkleft.


    Parent
    Tina Flournoy (none / 0) (#146)
    by coolit on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:38:18 PM EST
    In giving her response to the untenable count all votes resolution, she had tears in her eyes.  Only the somewhat rude hillary supporters snapped her out of that.  

    On a side note, that definitely hurt Hillary's cause.  Some of her supporters came off as unhinged.

    Parent

    Have some time to kill? (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:24:00 AM EST
    Play The Redistricting game. You can make Congressional maps like this one.

    Bwaahahahah.

    I will be sleeping in tomorrow but (none / 0) (#7)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:45:40 AM EST
    I wonder what they will be saying on the Sunday morning talk? There will be a lot to pick from given the days activities.

    I have given up Sunday talk, I have given (none / 0) (#137)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 08:44:18 AM EST
    up cable media, I would rather be here (I love this site) than read the newspaper, my mind rambles at night through the politics of the day. I'm about to (got to)start new hobbies...I've got to get away from this (after August)(Oh, unless Hillary gets the nom).

    Parent
    Oh! (none / 0) (#14)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:50:38 AM EST
    so they are saying it will be seen on Monday?

    No... (none / 0) (#19)
    by gmo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:55:38 AM EST
    ...I think the last thing I saw on the "infamous tape" at NQ was that there would be "more reporting" on the issue at 9:00 on Monday morning -- nothing about actually exposing the tape itself.

    Though at this point, I'm finding all that talk about as salacious as the HuffPo's most popular story the last few days of a man who had "video proof" of an alien landing.   (Oh! Now I get it!  Very funny, HuffPo. ;) )

    Parent

    uhhh I screwed up (none / 0) (#43)
    by waldenpond on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:23:38 AM EST
    Please delete the prior comment and please don't open the links.  It was an inappropriate response to blueinvenice.

    Blue In Venice (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:25:18 AM EST
    has previously been banned under another user name.  Her account and multiple comments posting the same video are erased.

    And your comment with inappropriate photo links in response is also gone. You, however, can stay, I'm sure it was a temporary lapse and it was annoying the way BUV posted that video link all over TL

    Parent

    thanks for going after the goofballs (none / 0) (#48)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:27:15 AM EST
    in earlier threads...that makes up for any lapse in judgment

    Parent
    for those of you, who like me, prefer... (none / 0) (#44)
    by p lukasiak on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:24:31 AM EST
    to remember Ricky Martin before you realized he had no actual talent...here's a link to the la Vida Loca video...

    He really is (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by LoisInCo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:29:50 AM EST
    an amazingly handsome man.

    Parent
    Amen!!! (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:41:50 AM EST
    I mean, yeah, sure, if you like that type.  ;)

    Parent
    wasn't that the song he sang at the (none / 0) (#46)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:26:10 AM EST
    grammy's and blew everyone away.  It was amazing.  That was the first time I had ever seen him perform.  The last time too! But it was good!

    Parent
    yeah,.... (none / 0) (#50)
    by p lukasiak on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:31:24 AM EST
    I was looking for that performance, but couldn't find it...so i settled for the video

    Parent
    It wasn't that song (none / 0) (#104)
    by daria g on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:20:34 AM EST
    It was whatever the World Cup theme song was.. might help you find it.  (Can't believe I know that.. :)

    Parent
    thanks (none / 0) (#47)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:26:32 AM EST
    That is a good version of the song. But the embedding was disabled on You Tube so I couldn't put the video up here.

    Parent
    What you talking about.... (none / 0) (#124)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:38:14 AM EST
    ...Ricky Martin is very talented. He's an excellent dancer. ;-)

    Parent
    Shout out to PR - rise up, Rico! (none / 0) (#54)
    by Ellie on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:56:43 AM EST
    Great clips, Jeralyn and BTD! My carcass was dragging itself to bed but now my @ss won't stop!

    Here's Marc Anthony as Hector Lavoe from the movie bio about Hector Lavoe. (Aguanile is to Puerto Rico as Babalu is to Cuba). Check it out! Soundtrack kicks @ss!

    And here's El Cantante himself with Tito Puente!

    Go, Rico, Go!

    Thanks for that. (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:40:18 AM EST
    Love Marc Anthony.

    Parent
    NoQuarter (none / 0) (#61)
    by michellemarie on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:11:45 AM EST
    is not working right now, so strange. I'm only commenting about this because Larry Johnson promised information about the Michelle Obama tape for Monday. I wonder if something is going on?


    read previous posts this thread (n/t) (none / 0) (#63)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:13:32 AM EST
    Sorry! (none / 0) (#66)
    by michellemarie on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:16:44 AM EST
    I wonder if the Pfleger sermon was a con job ... (none / 0) (#71)
    by dwmorris on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:24:22 AM EST
    designed to give Obama an excuse to resign from Trinity before the GE campaign.

    If you take it at face value, it was profoundly irresponsible for Pfleger to do. I find it very hard to believe that he could be that reckless given the Wright controversy.

    conspiracy much (none / 0) (#76)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:27:51 AM EST
    That sounds like some of the same sorts of conspiracy theories we were hearing from Rev. Wright. That's a bit of a tall order. Obama was hurt a little by this, and may be hurt more by it when taken with everything (once spun by the repubs). I can't imagine any sort of benefit.

    Parent
    But you know (none / 0) (#85)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:40:02 AM EST
    if Karl Rove had been his campaign manager -- well, that sounds like something Rove would plan.  Axelrod may be sharp but I think Rove plays dirtier.  

    Parent
    The benefit is that he has a quick and clean ... (none / 0) (#93)
    by dwmorris on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:54:59 AM EST
    exit from Trinity without having to backtrack on his rhetoric about disowning Wright.

    Since Obama has already been badly damaged by his mentor Wright, any damage from Pfleger is just incremental.

    It's just too easy. Pfleger, and Obama insider, shows up at Trinity right before the start of the GE campaign and gives a jaw dropping anti-Clinton rant ... and Obama is on TV severing his ties to the Trinity albatross. Plus the hit on Clinton is gravy.

    Parent

    You (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by LoisInCo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:57:21 AM EST
    would think he would have a better statement  on the comments tho. He could have said " That attack on Senator Clinton was patently false and I reject it." He would have certainly won alot of votes in November with that.

    Parent
    Lois, agreed. Obama & boyz can't give an inch. (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:34:45 AM EST
    He can't even proffer a tepid disapproval of the most flagrant, and fallacious, attacks on Senator Clinton.

    If he conceded any point, that would displease his Obama boy base. His silence is a dog whistle to them, signaling that he appreciates and supports their way of doing his business. It gives them wood.

    Parent

    Nah (none / 0) (#77)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:29:00 AM EST
    The guy is a firebrand.  He's got a long, long history of provocative statements.  I can't imagine this was all a con job.

    Parent
    Sure - but the timing and venue were both ... (5.00 / 0) (#87)
    by dwmorris on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:44:09 AM EST
    very convenient. Plus he's an insider.

    I don't usually go in for conspiracy theories, but this does not seem like something that would be outside the modern bounds of dirty politics as established by Atwater and Rove.

    Parent

    The Chicago Cardinal (none / 0) (#84)
    by themomcat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:39:45 AM EST
    has put a muzzle on Fr. Pflager.

    Parent
    Yes, but knowing the press is (none / 0) (#138)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 08:48:51 AM EST
    lurking everywhere, why would the church risk that sort of sermon unless it was for a reason. Obama didn't renounce the church, in fact he said why would he. The church accepted his resignation and la,la,la,dedum,dedum,dedum, etc.

    Parent
    I know this is off Topic (none / 0) (#83)
    by PainKillerJayne on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:39:11 AM EST
    Has anyone tried to get to No Quarter? Larry made an announcment he had some devastating news.It seems to be scrubbed from my internet.

    No Quarter is back up. (none / 0) (#86)
    by themomcat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:40:51 AM EST
    Glad (none / 0) (#89)
    by PainKillerJayne on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:46:05 AM EST
    Thank you

    Parent
    Israel Rivera could have ben a stellar (none / 0) (#92)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:48:08 AM EST
    pol.  Talk about working the crowd.

    Some questions... (none / 0) (#110)
    by Dirk Gently on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 04:01:59 AM EST
    I've been periodically reading talkleft for awhile now and I have a couple of questions that I really would like peoples thoughts on:
    1. Why does every one keep talking about the popular vote when the party awards delegates to decide a nominee and not vote totals?
    2. How can Sen. Clinton be ahead in the popular vote when the primary season holds caucuses and those don't reflect towards the popular vote, how can this be accurately calculated?  
    3. Why is everyone in our party so very much opposed to the other nominee? It seems like all everyone says is that "if Clinton/Obama isn't the nominee, I'm voting for Mccain!" Which leads to my next question...
    4. How can any real democrat actually think that because their candidate didn't get the nominations that it's reasonable to hop on board with the republicans? I thought that it was generally agreed that George Bush and John Mccain are nigh indistinguishable from one another. To me, this seems like the 2000 race where independents cast their vote against Al Gore simply because they didn't like the Clintons. It just seems that their is so much riding on this election that that sort of voting is madness.
    5. I've heard talk about sexism coming out of the Obama campaign and I was curious about some of the examples. (I guess this one isn't really a question, though)
    6. If all the candidates agreed to punishing Michigan and Florida last year for breaking party rules, isn't it somewhat disingenuous to say now that these voices must be heard after saying they shouldn't last year.
    7. With the 69-59 split in MI, I've read some rumblings of the RBC "stealing" delegates from Sen. Clinton and giving them to Sen. Obama. I don't understand how that can be stealing though when: everyone in the state thought (then at least) that their vote wasn't going to impact the nomination, only one candidate was on the ballot, all write ins were discarded, this split is supported by the senior senator of MI, Carl Levin, and (again, at that time) MI had no delegates to seat whatsoever. Why is this viewed as stealing when there are so many unknowns and MI wasn't going to have any delegates at all?
    Thats basically all of my questions. I'm not trying to start a fight with anyone, I would just like to hear what people think here, as this is a pro-Clinton blog and I've asked similar questions on pro-Obama blogs as well. In the end I'm just very concerned about how many supporters are saying they are going to vote for Mccain because they didn't get their first choice. I genuinely believe that we as a party have two great candidates and whomever gets the nominations will make a great president. Thank you for reading and I will greatly appreciate any replies.

    All of your questions (5.00 / 3) (#111)
    by themomcat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 04:09:51 AM EST
    have been addressed. You need to read more carefully.

    Parent
    Answers (5.00 / 10) (#112)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 04:24:06 AM EST
    1. The popular vote may be persuasive to superdelegates who are interested in following the will of the Democratic voters.
    2. Caucus are included in the popular vote, actual totals being used in most cases, estimates in a few.
    3. Not everyone is like that.  Some are, some aren't.  Sometimes the people who feel more strongly also tend to be more vocal.
    4. While it's reasonable to look at the election as nothing more than a choice between two competing ideologies, not everyone sees it as the red team vs. the blue team.  Sometimes people look at the individuals and make a different choice.  My grandfather, who has voted for every Democratic candidate since FDR, probably won't vote for Obama but I still think he counts as a real Democrat.
    5. Here is a link that may answer your question.  There were also two separate instances where Obama inappropriately addressed professional women as "sweetie."  I'm not going to try and provide an exhaustive list.
    6. It's not true that all the candidates agreed to such a thing.  It was a DNC ruling that the candidates were not consulted on.  You may have heard that Sen. Clinton told someone on a radio show in New Hampshire that the upcoming election in Michigan wouldn't count; while some Obama supporters interpret that as some sort of promise, it's also reasonable to believe that she was simply making a factual statement about the ruling that was then in existence.  Sen. Clinton consistently reaffirmed the importance of giving MI and FL voters a voice in the process to ensure that the Democrats can compete in those states in November.
    7. Unless you're going to throw out the election results from MI altogether, it's clear that Sen. Clinton received votes entitling her to 73 pledged delegates.  In the interests of compromise, the DNC looked at exit polls and decided that some of her voters actually would have preferred to vote for someone else, so they took 4 of the 73 and gave them to Sen. Obama.  The rules of the DNC clearly prohibit this, as even their own lawyers acknowledged.

    Hope that helps.

    Parent
    Steve, good answer. (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by themomcat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 04:45:30 AM EST
    You have far more patience that I have at this point.;-)

    Parent
    fallacy (none / 0) (#141)
    by RalphB on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:51:25 AM EST
    generally agreed that George Bush and John Mccain are nigh indistinguishable from one another

    There's not a chance in hell that this is true.

    Parent

    Thank you!!! (none / 0) (#132)
    by laurie on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 07:59:11 AM EST
    Thank you for your wonderful live posts yesterday. I live abroad and you had me glued to those posts yesterday evening.
    It's nice to find someone doing what the media should be doing but isn't. Do you think that the media are all secretly Republican?