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A Hole In Our Culture

Digby wrote this on Saturday:

I have written before that I don't believe Obama's win is attributed to [sexism], carrying a heavy historical burden of his own. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Acknowledging that doesn't create a "toxic legacy" and neither is it just the sad lament of "lonely people" (translation: lonely old women.) But I'm sure those memes will catch on and we'll all be told that we imagined it all. (Youtube is our new best friend.)

Clinton's campaign ripped open a hole in our culture and forced us to look inside. And what we found was a simmering cauldron of crude, sophomoric sexism and ugly misogyny that a lot of us knew existed but didn't realize was still so socially acceptable that it could be broadcast on national television and garner nary a complaint from anybody but a few internet scolds like me. It was eye-opening, to say the least.

As a card carrying internet scold, I will not be shut up about this, or anything else, including Keith Olbermann's unprofessionalism.

Speaking for me only

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    Digby: Not a Shameless Hack (5.00 / 17) (#1)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:29:17 PM EST


    Correction... (5.00 / 9) (#28)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:53:08 PM EST
    Digby--Soooooooo not a shameless hack.

    Parent
    I think (5.00 / 17) (#2)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:34:05 PM EST
    that Obama's passive acceptance of sexism as long as it benefitted him is a problem. I mean, my gosh, his own supporter compared Hillary to the Glenn CLose character in Fatal attraction. No one in the party should have let that stand.

    What's worse is (5.00 / 18) (#5)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:37:09 PM EST
    said supporter (Rep. Steve Cohen of Memphis) introduced Sen. Claire McCaskill at the TN State Party fundraiser May 31. Who gave a great Obama-promoting speech, apparently...in contrast to nobody present from the Clinton side.  This before the race was over, in a state Clinton won by 14 points, a couple hours after the Rules Committee debacle.

    Nobody better try to tell ME the deck wasn't stacked  during this election.  I expect this nonsense from Republicans, but behavior of some Dems this year has truly taken the cake.

    Parent

    (should add (5.00 / 12) (#9)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:39:51 PM EST
    this is the BIG yearly state fundraiser.  Nobody announced McCaskill would be the headliner beforehand....but they cheerfully sold plenty of tickets to Hillary supporters, many of whom I understand are now livid.)

    Parent
    I will work... (5.00 / 9) (#27)
    by Cal on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:53:04 PM EST
    ...hard for the defeat of McCaskill next time she's up for re-election.  

    Parent
    You Will Not Be Alone In That Effort n/t (5.00 / 7) (#89)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:19:54 PM EST
    OK look (3.00 / 8) (#156)
    by Y Knot on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:56:26 PM EST
    I'm only going to say this once, because I think that the sexism in our media and in our culture is real and obvious.

    It was not up to Obama to deal with the way Clinton was treated.

    Obama had and has his own issues to deal with, one just as pervasive and just as ugly and I know you're all tired of the comparison, but racism is just as real a phenomenon as sexism.

    And when he saw people attacking him because of his race, he hit it head on.  The speech he gave in Philadelphia (and I know you're all tired of hearing this, too) was groundbreaking.  Maybe it shouldn't have been.  Maybe we all should have acknowledged from the start that both sides of the racism issue have valid points.  But he was, to my knowledge, the first national figure in decades to face it head on.

    I respect Clinton a lot, I really do.  I would have proudly voted for her in a general election, and I don't think what was done to her in the media was unfair, but when she was confronted with it, it was up to her to face it head on, and she didn't.  

    And now all I hear is how Obama didn't decry how she was treated, which, maybe he should have.  But really, as the one being attacked in that manner, Clinton needed to step up.  But she didn't.  Not the way he did.  I'm sorry, but in the end, she's a strong, competent and capable woman.  If she was really the fighter she claimed to be, she should have fought back.  (And if she did in some speech or action somewhere, and I missed it, please let me know.  That would mean that this post is completely off base.  But I never saw her tackle this issue, directly.)

    In the end, there's racism and sexism all throughout this country and the world.  And both attitudes need to be confronted repeatedly and unflinchingly.  Obama faced his challenge. Clinton didn't.  That is not his fault.

    I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for this post.  I'm not interested in fighting.  If you think I'm wrong, please explain civilly and I'll reply in kind.

    And before anyone says I'm accusing the Clinton's of being racist, I'll say now, that no, I don't think they are, in their hearts.  I think they did seem to exploit racism in order to gain leverage in this contest however, just as Obama seemed to take advantage of people's sexist attitudes.  In fact, I'm not particularly proud of either side for their behavior.

    Parent

    Obama's speech (5.00 / 4) (#171)
    by suisser on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:07:55 PM EST
    in Philadelphia was not given because HE was being attacked for his race!  For cryin' out loud. Simply not true, and I think you know better.

    Parent
    You think the Wright attack (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by Y Knot on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:13:21 PM EST
    Wasn't about his race?  Really?

    Wow.  OK, I guess we'll just agree to disagree.


    Parent

    I'm going to agree (5.00 / 13) (#200)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:22:37 PM EST
    it was not about race. I was furious when he got away with giving that speech and the media claiming he had solved that problem.

    The problem with Rev Wright was that many, if not most, people were so taken back by those clips that we wanted to know exactly who Obama was and how much of that hatred he subscribed to. We wanted to know how deep his relationship was with the preacher, and what was this church all about.

    It really was not about race. Obama took it there because he wanted to play the whole deck while he was holding all those cards.

    Parent

    It was about his (5.00 / 9) (#207)
    by suisser on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:26:46 PM EST
    judgement- not his race.

    He did not choose to give that speech, he was forced to give it to save his a**.  And where's all that "National Dialogue" hooey now??

    Parent

    And any attempt (5.00 / 9) (#223)
    by standingup on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:44:53 PM EST
    by Hillary to bring up gender or sexism was met with criticism and more sexism.  She was not allowed to bring up the subject while Obama was applauded and showered with praise.  Talk about adding insult to injury.  

    Parent
    Yes it was. (5.00 / 5) (#185)
    by echinopsia on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:12:33 PM EST
    It was not up to Obama to deal with the way Clinton was treated.

    He's (supposedly) a Democrat. Democrats stand for equal treatment and against ALL FORMS of bigotry.

    Ergo, he needed to address the way she was treated.

    Period.

    Parent

    And Clinton stood up for Obama when? (3.00 / 4) (#191)
    by Y Knot on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:16:47 PM EST
    I'll wait for examples.

    Actually, no, I won't.  I disagree with your point.  In the end, while it would have been a nice thing for him to do, maybe even the right thing, if Clinton wanted to convince people she should be President, she needed to tackle it herself.  Obama bailing her out would have made her look weak.

    Parent

    When was he attacked? (5.00 / 0) (#204)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:23:52 PM EST
    " I will not be shut up about this"... (5.00 / 23) (#3)
    by Cal on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:34:59 PM EST
    And that's why we love you and Digby.

    Hear, hear....sophomoric....how appropos (5.00 / 14) (#4)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:36:27 PM EST
    There have been so many juvenile posts regarding this campaign, so much misogyny, veiled threats, so much ugliness...where does one begin?  It is nice to see that there are some who understand what has been transpiring.

    The sad thing is (5.00 / 11) (#6)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:38:21 PM EST
    many Obama supporters do not believe it.  Or if they do, they claim "the racism exhibited by the Clintons was worse".  (Pardon me if discussing the racism-as-smear concept is now against the rules at TL and I missed the memo...not trying to cause trouble on this, honest.)

    Parent
    This Obama supporter (5.00 / 6) (#11)
    by coigue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:40:36 PM EST
    agrees with you.

    I couldn't vote for Hil for her war vote, that's all. But I secretly hoped she would win and now I want her as VP.

    Anyhow, I am sure I am not alone in that I have personally experienced the same sort of sophmoric smears that saw light this season.

    Parent

    Saying (5.00 / 2) (#153)
    by Blue Jean on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:55:08 PM EST
    "I won't vote for HRC because of her war vote." (when she had a NY Senate seat to protect, unlike Himself, who has never voted against the war, only made a speech about it) reminds me of the Nader folks who said "Oh, I can't vote for someone who's pro-death penalty like Gore."--and then ended up electing Shrub who was not only pro-death penalty, but mocked death row inmates' dying pleas.  

    Way to go, folks.  NOT.

    Parent

    It was close. (none / 0) (#189)
    by coigue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:14:12 PM EST
    and the IWR vote helped me decide.

    Your comparison with Nader voters is over the top, especially since we are not now stuck with shrub, we have Obama, who is a great choice too.

    Parent

    war (5.00 / 2) (#224)
    by sociallybanned on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:45:57 PM EST
    I too jumped on that antiwar movement, then I' d' noticed flaws Obama had spoken of that IMo, struck a cord with me.  Soon after I'd realized the site, I used to frequently (huffpo)visit were hiding or neglecting to report the truth about Hillary. I started to research things on my own to realize Obama will not end this war.  Read any article from socialistworker.org about Obama ending this war.  The author points out Obama's hypocrisy( own words) how he plans to turn our focus to afhganistan and increasing troops.  It's going to be a wake up call for those radical left Hugo Chavez supporters,  I mean Obama supporters

    Parent
    Sorry - you don't get her now... (4.00 / 4) (#24)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:51:34 PM EST
    ...now that you "need" her - either as Obama's VP or having her trying the herd her supporters into the slaughter house.

    Not going to happen.

    Parent

    i don't think that's what this post was about (5.00 / 4) (#66)
    by dws3665 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:11:55 PM EST
    I don't think s/he was trying to coopt Clinton. I think the post was a recognition of HRC's strengths and a repudiation of the sexism directed toward her.

    coigue, thanks for sharing your perspective. it's nice to know that some obama supporters "get" it.

    Parent

    S/he doesn't get it! (5.00 / 0) (#75)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:14:00 PM EST
    "But I secretly hoped she would win and now I want her as VP."

    What?????????????????????????????

    Parent

    Well, I'm not a mind reader (5.00 / 5) (#104)
    by dws3665 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:27:02 PM EST
    and perhaps coigue will chime back in, but how interpreted this remark was that coigue could not, in good conscience, vote for someone who voted for the AUMF. That pretty much left you with Obama (who had no opportunity to vote for it, though I suspect he would have, but I digress..) or Kucinich. Not much of a choice (sorry, Kucinich fans).

    However, on balance, coigue thought Hillary was the better candidate, recognizes the value of putting her on the ticket, and deplores the sexism of the campaign.

    Coigue is hardly the only single-issue voter in this campaign, and there is no doubt that this hurt HRC among anti-war voters. At least this one has not descended into the dark circle of delusion whereby voting for the AUMF is the moral equivalent to mass murder.

    That's all I meant.

    Parent

    ITA, (5.00 / 5) (#114)
    by eleanora on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:32:15 PM EST
    plus coigue was one of the valiant Obama supporters who called out the massive sexism and unfairness aimed at Hillary at DK and ended up leaving that site because of it. Just supporting Obama doesn't mean someone is hates her and can't see her good qualities, although it seems that way sometimes on the Internets.

    Parent
    Not a sinle issue voter (5.00 / 3) (#190)
    by coigue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:16:46 PM EST
    it just put Obama over the edge. I already said it was close between the two of them....and I like them both enthusiastically. My decision was one of the hardest I even have made at the polls.

    Parent
    Then why did s/he "secretly wish" (1.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:34:39 PM EST
    ...HRC would win but do nothing about it?

    That doesn't make any sense.  Why secretly wish for something when you can DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?

    Parent

    Please stop this (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by standingup on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:08:51 PM EST
    If you are not certain what coigue meant by the statement, can you at least ask for clarification?  I don't agree with your interpretation either.  There is more than enough acrimony here without adding more if it is not deserved.  

    Parent
    easy (3.00 / 1) (#143)
    by dws3665 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:49:16 PM EST
    People do things ALL THE TIME that they hope other people will undo for them (or don't do them, knowing someone else will), because they can't make themselves do it. Voting is a great example. Ever heard of a protest vote for a cause/candidate you don't want, just to send a message. It's not always rational, but it's sometimes how people maintain a sense of moral rectitude. Coigue couldn't vote for a pro-war-vote candidate, no matter what.

    Parent
    Personally Iunderstand it perfectly (3.00 / 2) (#187)
    by RalphB on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:13:04 PM EST
    It's exactly like the protest vote I'm going to cast in November.  We all do what we have to do in oder to maintain our own sense of integrity.  


    Parent
    because I want both of them? (none / 0) (#194)
    by coigue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:18:02 PM EST
    Have you ever had a mixed emotion in your life?

    Parent
    Thank you (none / 0) (#184)
    by coigue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:12:28 PM EST
    I always wanted her on the ticket.

    For me, it was all about the IWR. If it had been her against Edwards, I would have voted her.

    Parent

    Two of the leaders in this (5.00 / 12) (#12)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:42:02 PM EST
    PUMA organizing were on Cavuto's "news" program on FOX this afternoon. They attempted to point out the sexism against Hillary, while Cavuto promptly shut them down.

    They also said the DNC is trying to force Hillary to give up her delegates and not put her name on the August ballot at the convention.

    Never before in the history of the party has anything like this been done. If it isn't because she's a woman, then what is it?

    Parent

    anything official or in writing on this? (5.00 / 5) (#16)
    by bjorn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:46:12 PM EST
    It would be SO WRONG if this is true.

    Parent
    No delegates. We need unity, says Dean. (5.00 / 3) (#116)
    by catfish on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:34:19 PM EST
    No floor vote, says Dean:
    When Mr. Dean reached out to Cynthia Ruccia, who started an organization of female Clinton swing-state voters threatening to vote for Mr. McCain, Ms. Ruccia asked that the Democratic convention include a symbolic first ballot for Mrs. Clinton's delegates. Mr. Dean discouraged the idea on the grounds of unity.


    Parent
    then I will throw down another marker (5.00 / 9) (#128)
    by bjorn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:40:36 PM EST
    no floor vote at the convention, then no Obama vote for me.

    Parent
    Sorry but $%^& him and unity. (5.00 / 7) (#137)
    by nycstray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:44:52 PM EST
    he can only discourage it right?

    If she doesn't get the vote or gets convinced to back away for "the food of the party" . . . . Dog these people are clueless (and that's being kind so I don't get banned)

    Parent

    puma, puma, puma! (5.00 / 4) (#164)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:01:35 PM EST
    take her delegates and we take our votes away. got that, dean!

    Parent
    O/T obama is ramping up his search for (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:08:38 PM EST
    a VP; and look at the list of the usual suspects...don't know which one is keyser sose (sp)...

    link

    Parent

    Yes. He has his search committee out (5.00 / 3) (#192)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:16:52 PM EST
    consulting with Pelosi, Durbin, and Reid.  Looking, looking.  Who shall I pick?  

    Parent
    That's the first I heard it (none / 0) (#32)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:54:46 PM EST
    The clip of the program is on the front page of NoQuarter (I know, but the clip is real).

    Cavuto did not correct her when she said it.

    Parent

    Double Indemnity... (5.00 / 7) (#22)
    by oldpro on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:49:30 PM EST
    she's a Clinton AND a woman.

    Parent
    I reject "she's a Clinton". (4.73 / 15) (#29)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:53:44 PM EST
    My god, Clinton is the ONLY Democrat in the last 40 years to win back to back elections.  I am so sick and tired of hearing Bill Clinton get slammed as if he is a f*cking idiot.

    Bill Clinton is 10 times smarter and more experienced than Barack Obama will EVER be.  And Hillary is 20 times smarter.

    I am so through with the Democratic Party.

    Parent

    Well, I reject both (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by oldpro on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:08:40 PM EST
    but I was answering the question....not agreeing with the reasoning of those who rejected the Clintons for a beginner who needs job training.

    Parent
    Because she's a Clinton, more likely (5.00 / 0) (#149)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:52:18 PM EST
    Two strikes, ya know.

    Parent
    yep. (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by coigue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:38:25 PM EST
    As ugly as it was, sunlight is the best disinfectant

    This might be off topic (5.00 / 6) (#8)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:38:56 PM EST
    But I'm suddenly reminded of one of Lyle Lovett's best albums, named after books in a bible, as they appear in the bible, in consecutive order.

    Joshua Judges Ruth.

    I think this might be on topic afterall.  We'll have to see.

    Edgar... (5.00 / 5) (#15)
    by Addison on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:44:47 PM EST
    ...I promise if there were a porch and some beer we'd get that past thread's argument settled before those first two cans were empty.

    And, to the topic of this thread, both racism and sexism have been brought out in the open during this campaign. But the racism bit of it has been resolved (and anti-racist forces vindicated, to some degree), to the extent possible in a presidential election (which is rather small, but significant). A black man can be the nominee.

    The sexism festers, mostly unresolved. It's a clear, documented problem. I hope it's documented more.


    Parent

    A hollow moral victory (5.00 / 4) (#40)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:59:23 PM EST
    Plenty of people think "a black man can be the nominee" because he stacked the deck in various ways, including invoking various sexist tropes.  

    You really think this is a moral victory?  I'm just asking.

    Parent

    MOSTLY unresolved? (5.00 / 6) (#42)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:00:12 PM EST
    You are kidding, aren't you?  It goes on - the Hillary Hatred is still the "topic" of the day with Obamaphiles and the MSM.


    Parent
    To make sure this stays on topic (5.00 / 10) (#77)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:14:34 PM EST
    I still think Obama made himself complicit in the sexism being discussed here when he said the attacks on Clinton from the 90s polarized Clinton and thus made it more difficult for her to unite the country the way he could.

    Because those attacks were primarily sexist attacks, I infer a simple statement:  Obama believes only men can unite the country because when a man is president, the country won't be bogged down with divisive sexist attacks all the time.


    Parent

    One lasting image (5.00 / 12) (#208)
    by djork on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:29:34 PM EST
    I will never forget from this campaign was Michelle Obama in front of a large crowd saying "they called us a fairy tale", deliberately and cynically twisting what Bill Clinton said referring to the media's coverage of Obama's voting record on the war to make Bill Clinton look like a racist. That was out of the bounds of decency in my opinion.

    Parent
    Oh joy...now we will have videos of.. (5.00 / 6) (#33)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:55:50 PM EST
    Obama supporters and fundies swaying in unison with their eyes closed and hands raised to the heavens praising God and Barack Obama.

    I will blow lunch.  And breakfast.  And dinner.

    Parent

    Did you see that Oprah intro for Obama? (5.00 / 4) (#178)
    by blogtopus on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:09:17 PM EST
    His speech... she was 'intoning', not speaking to the attendees. It was really sickening.

    Parent
    as a wise man wisely noted (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by Turkana on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:40:34 PM EST
    You shouldn't shut up about it (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by digdugboy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:43:13 PM EST
    It's atrocious. Although I agree with Digby -- it's difficult to ascribe causation to sexism for Hillary's loss.

    And causation (5.00 / 19) (#23)
    by standingup on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:50:28 PM EST
    is being misused by the media as a way to avoid a discussion of their own sexist behavior.  I would bet 90% of the discussions or interviews I have heard begin with the premise that Hillary or her supporters are blaming her loss on sexism.  Nothing is further from the truth.  It may have hurt her campaign but it hurt more to see how easily and common it came up as part of the accepted coverage.  

    Parent
    this is a very good point (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by dws3665 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:00:23 PM EST
    in some ways (e.g., voter anger) the sexism displayed in the media may have actually benefited HRC's campaign in some small ways (I don't necessarily believe this, but it is TECHNICALLY possible). Similarly, Obama may have benefited in the same way from the racist comments/muslim smears directed at him. I don't know, and that's not the point.

    The point is that whether it affected the voters or not, it's not all right. Or excusable.

    However, when dealing with organisms who lack capacity for shame, this is clearly a Sisyphean task.

    Parent

    while most in the media (5.00 / 4) (#56)
    by lizzie on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:08:30 PM EST
    are avoiding the discussion of their own bad behavior, James Wolcott, addresses straight on when he says, "The garrulous MSNBC host and Gatling gun Chris Matthews was so egregious in his anti-Hillary slant that he apologized after receiving a coast-battering storm of critical backlash, and colleague David Shuster was put in the penalty box after asking if Hillary had "pimped out" daughter Chelsea." He then goes on to properly tear into KO for his "special comment" against Hillary villifying her for race baiting. Wolcott leaves very few rocks unturned and names names (both in print and online).

    I had read this when it was first posted, and then again today as I was belatedly reading the June issue of VF.

    Parent
    related to naming names (5.00 / 4) (#82)
    by dws3665 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:17:17 PM EST
    Somerby today is a must-read.

    Parent
    Yep. Today on his dumb f**k radio show (5.00 / 12) (#62)
    by shoephone on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:10:17 PM EST
    Ed Schultz was railing on about how all the women's support for Clinton was a "sister" thing and had nothing to do with ability, policies or issues.

    If anybody deserves to have a beer thrown in his face it's Schultz. And I'd love to be the one to throw it.

    Parent

    i'll buy a ticket (5.00 / 8) (#72)
    by dws3665 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:13:19 PM EST
    and the beer.

    Parent
    I'll spring for a keg (5.00 / 3) (#125)
    by Radical Faith on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:39:20 PM EST
    if you'll throw the whole thing at him.

    Parent
    It's a deal. n/t (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by shoephone on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:40:20 PM EST
    Stand in line! (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:57:10 PM EST
    ed so needs to have some (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:04:41 PM EST
    training in how to deal with people of (well,hmm) both sexes. he needs to take the cotton out of his ears and put it his mouth in my humble opinion.

    Parent
    I wouldn't waste a beer (5.00 / 5) (#206)
    by standingup on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:24:18 PM EST
    on Ed, he's not worth it.  He may be a Democrat but many of his Republican tendencies are still showing.    

    I find it interesting that we have so many reformed Republicans - Markos, Aravosis, Ariana, and Cenk Uygur - that were front and center in pushing the Clinton hate this year.  I can't say I am happy with what they are bringing to the party.  

    Parent

    Gloria Steinem today said on CNN (5.00 / 14) (#73)
    by Aqua Blue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:13:22 PM EST
    when asked what has Hillary learned and what can a woman do differently next time,

    "that is like BLAMING THE VICTIM for the crime  instead of asking what the media should do differently"

    (I love Gloria Steinem.  She gets it.)

    Parent

    Didn't she endorse Obama? (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:30:38 PM EST
    Which begs the question, does she think sexism is ok to use as a political weapon, and if not, why is she endorsing the man who did?

    Parent
    Yeah, I'm a little put out with Gloria (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:42:28 PM EST
    right now, although she was spectacular in that clip, esp. handling those two idiots interviewing her.  You could see in their faces that neither of them had the least idea what she was talking about.

    I think Gloria only endorsed Obama after Hillary suspended though.  Anyone know for sure?

    Parent

    it doesn't matter (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by txpolitico67 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:52:49 PM EST
    Clinton didn't need Steinhem's support.  Luckily 18 million others STOOD by her.

    Parent
    True enough. (none / 0) (#172)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:08:04 PM EST
    I was just curious because if Hillary did ask her to help, I'm a bit less put out with her.

    I did notice that she tagged that 'and vote for Barack Obama' on at the end in a big rush (or whatever she said exactly).  And that she didn't really endorse him, she said feminists will vote for him.

    Which is what I'm put out about but I did notice she hasn't said anything particularly positive about him.

    Parent

    You're right (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:57:05 PM EST
    I believe she was at the Saturday speech, near the front.

    I trust she's doing what Hillary asked. I just don't know how she can say "we had an embarrassment of talent" with a straight face.


    Parent

    compared to the GOP (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by dws3665 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:24:17 PM EST
    we did.

    Our worst candidate would have been their best.

    Parent

    how do you explain the hatred then? (5.00 / 6) (#31)
    by sarahfdavis on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:54:24 PM EST
    why all the hatred? they hypocrisy? the lies? the distortions?
    the character assassinations? the absolute desire to shame senator clinton? how do  you explain that?

    Parent
    Envy. Class warfare. (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by oldpro on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:21:22 PM EST
    It would not be nearly so vicious if she had divorced Bill Clinton.  That she didn't, invites the most scathing, belittling and vicious of lies and putdowns.

    They hurt him by hurting her...and vice versa...and kill two birds with one stone.

    Parent

    but... (5.00 / 7) (#111)
    by dws3665 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:30:47 PM EST
    she couldn't divorce Bill Clinton! Because then she would never have been the Senator from NY, which she only got because her husband cheated on her!

    I know it's true, I heard Chris Matthews say it on MSNBC.

    If she had left him, she would have been anti-family and either a) an affirmed lesbian, or b) a sleeping around whore. Or both.

    Why? Because people are afraid of smart, powerful women. It's really that simple.

    Parent

    I have to disagree (5.00 / 11) (#113)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:31:39 PM EST
    Had she divorced Bill Clinton, they would have just pivoted to different sexist themes.  Because directly below married women are divorced women.  Remember whatshisname's statement (and the laughter and celebration that surrounded it) about her looking like every man's first wife standing outside probate court?

    Michelle Obama's statement about not being able to run her family would be expanded and run with -- she can't hold onto her man, she's such a b*tch she drove even Bill Clinton away, geez, I can't even think of them but they'd come as fast and as furious and be no less vicious.

    There are some reasons not to like Hillary, and then there are the excuses.  Not divorcing Bill is an excuse.

    Parent

    That's kind of a deflection, (4.85 / 20) (#39)
    by eleanora on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:57:44 PM EST
    because no one is saying that sexism itself stole the nomination from her, especially Hillary. We're saying that sexism and misogyny were very very ugly in this campaign, used against her and her supporters every single day and in most of the media. And we're angry that people we thought were allies not only didn't speak out against it, but used sexist stereotypes and speech themselves.

    And now those same people are either belittling our experiences and telling us to stop whining and grow up OR saying, "OMG, will you look at that! We never saw the misogyny before this week-- what a shame, tsk tsk :("

    Parent

    It's the same thing (5.00 / 10) (#44)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:01:14 PM EST
    they did to folks convinced Republicans stole the 2000 election.  Minimize, pathologize, invalidate.  If they can convince everyone we're just insane with bitterness, it means nothing we say is valid.

    We're just gonna have to be patient.  And hope it takes people less time to realize the truth on this than it did on the Florida debacle.

    Parent

    (Oh, and (none / 0) (#51)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:04:11 PM EST
    sorry on the username.  I didn't realize it was more or less taken till I'd been here a while.  Would be open to changing mine if you'd like.  Email me at
    e l e a n o r a _ 2 0 0 8 @ y a h o o . c o m
    if you care to discuss...)

    Parent
    LOL, no problem! (none / 0) (#53)
    by eleanora on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:06:53 PM EST
    I did a doubletake every time I saw you for awhile there! But I always like the things you say, so I'm happy to be twins ;)

    Parent
    Ditto! So it's official (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:21:08 PM EST
    Glad to hear it.  Drop me a line anytime anyway if you like.  :)

    Parent
    I would suggest that it's (4.77 / 9) (#49)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:03:49 PM EST
    one of the things.

    There are others...including a couple bad weeks after NH.

    But the sexism thing did play a part...
    The nasty reaction to her choke up was beyond bizarre. I mean here they were all up in arms about her being the Ice Queen...she shows a smidge of emotion...the next thing you know she's a Weeping Willow.

    As a coworker pointed out...she was da*ned coming and going.

    Parent

    Once Again, The Media Gets Away With It (5.00 / 8) (#14)
    by flashman on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:43:32 PM EST
    they smirk and make their sexists remarks, looking straight into the camera, as though they were looking into our eyes.  Ratings soar, and they go on to bigger and better things.  Anyone who dares is criticize them is smeared on the same medium that allowed their disgusting behavior in the first place.  They are off the rails.

    I hope this is not true, are the ratings (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by bjorn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:51:53 PM EST
    of MSNBC up or down? I hope they are down. I have to believe they are down as a result of Olbermann and Matthews.

    OT - I am developing a list of my own VP choices that would be deal breakers for my Obama vote- any Republican, Sam Nunn, Bill Richardson, Claire McCaskill, Katherine Sebilius, and maybe a couple of others.  

    Parent

    MSNBC's are up (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:56:32 PM EST
    Depressingly.

    Parent
    I can't tell you how much that saddens me (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by bjorn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:57:41 PM EST
    Beyond belief

    Parent
    And what makes this even worse is.. (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by rjarnold on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:44:21 PM EST
    that they (especially Olbermann) are doing the best with the young demographic, which is the best demographic for advertising. They are getting rewarded for being the most propagandized news channel since the beginning of the Iraq War.

    Parent
    my guess is they won't be hanging (none / 0) (#174)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:08:47 PM EST
    around after november watching ko.

    Parent
    Bill Richardson makes me so mad..... (none / 0) (#135)
    by Aqua Blue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:44:03 PM EST
    wheneve he is on TV I hit the mute button.

    What a snake in the grass...self-serving @##.

    Parent

    how long did it take you to earn that card? (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by dws3665 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:46:34 PM EST
    is there a certification process? I want to be an internet scold, too!

    Sexism for a lifetime...I've had enough. (5.00 / 10) (#19)
    by Aqua Blue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:47:50 PM EST
    Unforunately, Howard Dean, Wexler, Reid, Obama supporters, and others have no understanding of the intense anger that women have from living with decades of sexism.  I am sick of being in the underclass.  I am sick of being categorized as low income and uneducated.  (The opposie is true.)  I am sick of being taken for granted.  

    I never dreamed that I could vote Republican, but I can and will, if Hillary is not offered the VP.   My vote will be a PROTEST vote...about disrspect of Hillary, distortions about Hillary, trying to force Hillary out of election, and on and on.   My vote is all I have left to voice my opinion.

    I have called and emailed every Democratic Senator,  many members of the House,  the DNC, and mass media repeatedly during the Primary about treating Hillary fairly.

    My grievances are many.   And, no, I can not be patted on the head,  called chilish, insulted, called not a true Democrat and a liar on Kos when I stated that I have voted a straight Democratic Ticket for over 30 years.  Obama GET MY VOTE NOW???    The Democratic Party tell me to step up now.   What hurts the most is to be dissed now by a Party that I have worked for diligently fo 30 plus years.  

    If Hillary is offered the VP will I vote for Obama.

    If Obama is not smart enough to choose the winning ticket then I can question if HE really has the best interet of the country at heart.  And my guilt for a McCain vote will be gone.


    I agree - 1000% EXCEPT (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:04:09 PM EST
    ...I won't vote for Obama under any circumstance.  And I pray that if asked, HRC will not accept the VP slot.  AND, I have the same prayer about Wes Clark.

    Amen.

    Parent

    I'm on your Nonvote Boat (5.00 / 11) (#63)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:10:51 PM EST
    I can't vote for a person who savagely exploited the very thing I've worked all my life against, and which was aimed as much at me as at Hillary.

    Long before the delegate-stealing at the RBC (and all the caucus and primary and RBC manipultions that preceded that show trial), I'd decided that I just couldn't do it. To support him in any way says it was ok, it was within the rules of the game.

    My only regret when watching the RBC meeting was that I can only withold my vote once.

    Parent

    The RBC was o foolish (5.00 / 4) (#95)
    by Aqua Blue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:21:30 PM EST
    and short sided.   Had all votes for FL/MI been counted and Hillary given all her votes as cast, I could be forgiving.   That was the straw.   I was mad before but that day I was enraged at Obama.    The DNC knew what they were doing in the beginning to punish FL/MI.   They knew that Clinton would have won the nomination.

    Dirty tricks.

    Parent

    Obama could (5.00 / 11) (#20)
    by sas on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:48:24 PM EST
    have been a great leader, but his quiet acceptance of sexism, has shown that he is just another guy, in it for himself.

    There were several times during the campaign where he could have shown leadership ....

    1.  allowing a revote in Florida and Michigan, instead of him and his campaign setting up roadblocks

    2.  calling the press out on sexism...showing that America was truly a land of equality for all in his eyes...

    3.  disavowing Wright the first time, quitting the Trinity church very early on, denouncing Pfleger , denouncing Rezko, Ayers

    4.  Saying that Bill Clinton, especially was not a racist early on

    Of course, any of these might have meant he might not win...

    No great leader here, no visionary, .....just an inexperienced, arrogant, opportunist....

    Memories ... of the way we WEREN'T (5.00 / 14) (#129)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:40:58 PM EST
    I want to know WTF Obama ever did, ever risked, ever strenuously objected to the War On Iraq, in real political time as opposed to that "brave" self-congratulating rhetorical post facto stance.

    To me it's his AWOL story. Wouldda couldda shouldda and he didn't happen to be in congress at the time, which of course isn't his "fault".

    It speaks volumes to his undeserved laurels in that category that he wasn't leading on the national stage on that issue. I mean, it's so often raised as a big reason he's more righteous than Bad Obstacle Lady.

    Were he really the second coming of MLK and Gandhi combined, he'd have been THE voice of the anti-war movement. If he'd accomplished a fraction in realtime as what his rhetoric suggests, he'd have been taking on the Patriotic Police so hard, he'd have been a librul household name back when it mattered.

    It reminds me so much of Lt. GW F*ckup who swaggered around in a bomber jacket in college, being a 1st class pro-war @ssho!le while other poor b@stards without his connections suffered and died for his bragging.

    Another thing that's striking about this smoke and mirrors, all-sizzle, no-steak movement is that they're so much like the post-literate definition of a classic as a book everyone wants to have read.

    Not very many of the movementarians seem to care much about where the samples / cribbed phrases of the swaying and the "inspiring" speeches come from, or the hard civil rights battles -- going for a large sexist frappacina if anyone wants to come with -- they seem more in a hurry to have been a part of a movement.

    It's like an implanted chip with a scripted photoshopped memory that didn't really happen but replays well.

    Yeah, I generalized. :: spit ::

    Once I got pegged as a typical problematic racist white b!tch and officially got tossed off the Fauxgressive Express, I figured, why not go Rogue?

    Parent

    The most amazing thing... (5.00 / 16) (#21)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:48:52 PM EST
    is that all Obama had to do was to make a campaign speech and address the sexism and stop it in his tracks.

    He never did.  IN fact, he fertilized it with his "finger" on the cheek at the appropriate time when he mentioned HRC; his claws reference; his periodic reference....I will never forgive him.  

    Obama can, now, talk until he's blue in the face about women and HRC and his daughter and me...and I will simply flip the bird right back at him!

    I will never forgive him.  Never.

    So we have to go see him in a group (5.00 / 6) (#142)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:49:12 PM EST
    And just keep fingering our cheek as he does his speech. Like the Wave, ha. Hillary did not lose because of sexism in reality, but the sexism in the media was ugly. None of us deserve that and since the media was guilty of that, then it goes into the equation.

    Parent
    There's plenty of time left (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:51:36 PM EST
    and he knows how to make that happen.

    No. He. Does. Not. (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:10:08 PM EST
    And if you think he does, then you must still be sipping that Kool-Aide.

    Parent
    I think Psstt was referring to (5.00 / 6) (#70)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:12:53 PM EST
    the part about Obama being the only one running. He does know how to make that happen, he has done it in most of his elections.

    Parent
    The proof is in the eating of the pudding (5.00 / 5) (#101)
    by blogtopus on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:26:03 PM EST
    and I think Obama has the best ratf*ckers money can buy, along with a whole army of ratf*cker trolls who really haven't realized the big battle is still ahead, with nary a caucus in sight.

    Fight fire with fire, it's been said. We've certainly found someone who knows how to use the rules set forth in 2000. Now all that matters is if he's just as competent as GOVERNING -- previous examples point to no.

    It's amazing, really. It's like they hollowed out a democrat and poured a GOP operative inside. Less Manchurian, more Dolly Madison.

    Parent

    I admit I've been thinking that (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:40:25 PM EST
    Along the lines of, Maybe it's good to have a really ruthless Dem for a change, instead of one who just rolls over...

    Problem is, I just can't get past the part about those tactics making us nothing better than those we claim to despise.

    Parent

    I believe the post I responded to has (none / 0) (#123)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:37:21 PM EST
    disappeared. It referred to a ballot with no opponents.

    Apology accepted.

    Parent

    There's a big part of me that was (5.00 / 5) (#30)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:54:18 PM EST
    wishing that we really did have 57 states, and that this process could go on just a little longer, just because I think we were really on the verge of having a national conversation (God, I hate that term) about sexism and gender issues.  Now that Hillary has conceded the nomination, it seems that even trying to have that conversation brands us as "whiners," which is a shame because I think we have a lot to talk about.

    Contrary to what we keep being told, this isn't about blaming sexism for Hillary's loss - unless the Obama people want to own the notion that he should let race take credit for his win - it's about taking a good, hard look at our attitudes and perspectives and actions where women are concerned, where we are as a nation, and where we are headed as a result of what happened these last months.

    She suspended, she did not concede (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:00:06 PM EST
    That wasn't really my point. (none / 0) (#59)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:08:47 PM EST
    And whether she "suspended" as a technical action that allows her to keep her delegates, it's really a distinction without a difference; you don't give a speech giving your unqualified support to the other guy if you're still really in the race.

    Sorry if I don't see what the semantics of conceding v. suspending has to do with sexism.

    Parent

    No it's not! (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:14:41 PM EST
    Sorry, Anne, don't mean to give the appearance of piling on - I think you always make great points - just trying to explain.

    Conceding means she is giving up, flatly, with no chance of reversal.  Conceding means she keeps her delegates and if Obama's chances go SPLAT somehow she can step back up to the nomination.

    It could make a huge bit of difference, especially if something really toxic turns up on the as-yet-untested (by my lights, anyway) Obama.

    Parent

    Crap! Misspoke (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:15:11 PM EST
    meant to say suspending means she keeps delegates and can step back up.  Sorry.

    Parent
    Oh, for the love of God (none / 0) (#98)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:23:25 PM EST
    please - the world is not going to come to an end because I used the word "concede" instead of "suspend;" I would be thrilled if Hillary is called upon to come to our rescue in August - I'm sure we will need it by then - but harping on my momentary lapse (forgive me, please) is a great way to go off-track on the subject here, which was sexism.

    Sorry if I sound a little frustrated.

    Parent

    Very sorry, Anne (5.00 / 0) (#140)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:46:17 PM EST
    My intention in the correction was for the readers. My experience in these discussions is that Obama supporters want so much to see her concede, they will jump on any opportunity to confirm she has. Having it come from a Clinton supporter is just that much better to them.

    I wasn't trying to teach you anything. You make excellent points in all your comments. Your credibility makes your words more significant to the readers. That's a compliment.


    Parent

    No worries, didn't read carefully enough (none / 0) (#115)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:33:25 PM EST
    Thought there was some confusion.  Duh!  Sorry. Carry on.  I agree 100%, FWIW.

    Parent
    I'm hoping he'll find he wants to spend more time (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by jawbone on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:16:56 PM EST
    with his family sometime between now and the convention....

    Parent
    Suspending means she is still in (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:54:06 PM EST
    the race should some miracle, or new scandal, occur and Obama is deemed not electable. Then she still has her delegates, and the popular vote to make her case to the convention. Hillary isn't stupid, as we all know, and she is aware that there are lots of skeletons in Obama's closet. The GOP will have them out and rattling loudly in November. But something may break before that. So, just in case, she is suspending rather than conceding. If enough of us make enough noise to the SDs, they may change their minds. Watching the party hemorrhage voters permanently because of their choice of nominee must be hard. Personally, I hope it hurts, physically hurts. But, if they do come to their senses, she will be there, ready to step in.

    Parent
    And now they *can't* let (5.00 / 7) (#52)
    by eleanora on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:04:29 PM EST
    that conversation happen, because it'll be bad for "party unity." Just like they don't want to let Hillary's delegates cast a vote for her on the first ballot at the convention. God forbid anyone should acknowledge just how many she won and how close a woman came to a major party nomination for the first time ever.

    Parent
    OT... (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:55:52 PM EST
    but I just got back from pool and there was something about mortgage companies and special mortgages to Obama advisors...and someone on the VP group was connected. Was running on CNN.

    I wonder if he is the one who (5.00 / 3) (#163)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:01:13 PM EST
    set up the fundraiser by CreditSuisse in NYC that Obama took time off from the campaign to attend?? CreditSuisse is one of the major sub-prime lenders. A lot of the sub-prime lenders are supporting Obama to the tune of a couple of million dollars to his campaign. Why no one has mentioned this in the media is just such a mystery!! Obama getting funds from the people foreclosing on so many homeowners. Nice.

    Parent
    Do tell! n/t (none / 0) (#80)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:16:12 PM EST
    Jim Johnson (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by JustJennifer on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:18:52 PM EST
    Obama's VP selection team.  Has ties to the CEO of Countrywide.  Allegedly got special loans from him.

    Parent
    Who will vet the vetters? (5.00 / 4) (#93)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:21:20 PM EST
    Yippee! (none / 0) (#106)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:27:31 PM EST
    Yet at every... (5.00 / 13) (#36)
    by Cal on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:56:43 PM EST
    ...speeech now he stops to thank "Hillary Rodham Clinton on behalf of my two daughters."  What a freakin' sanctimonious opportunist.

    Yes, it's making me reach (5.00 / 18) (#54)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:07:35 PM EST
    for the remote even faster.  I really can't take the "tone," especially after the tone-deafness of his reaction Saturday to Clinton's speech.  She said we have not shattered the glass ceiling, but we have cracked it -- to which he responds that the glass ceiling is shattered.  So much for hearing our voices, when he couldn't even bother himself to hear Clinton's.  Every mention of the daughters just brings back to me that . . . He. Does. Not. Hear. Us.

    Parent
    A friend of a friend (5.00 / 14) (#64)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:10:55 PM EST
    got a nasty response back from someone high up at the DNC in response to a simple email sent with the Susan B. Anthony quote about "a party that ignores her gender."

    I mean, REALLY nasty.  I have to wonder if they're starting to crack.  My guess is they're still being completely flooded by calls, emails etc

    (goes off to make more calls, write more emails & etc)  ;)

    Parent

    That wouldn't be sicko Donna Brazile (5.00 / 8) (#69)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:12:18 PM EST
    ..would it?

    I seriously think that person needs to be in therapy - soon - and for many many years.  What a pathetic person she is.

    So sad.

    Parent

    Nope. Not Brazile (5.00 / 6) (#88)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:19:22 PM EST
    Karen Finney.  I'll see if I can get permission to re-post (again, unless that's against ToS and I don't know it...)

    Parent
    Coming Soon: A Tale of two Donnas, The Musical (5.00 / 4) (#210)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:30:32 PM EST
    It's a Dem extravaganza waiting to happen. Two Donnas: the Beaming, Mama-Throwing Donna and Sourball Donna having to chew crushed glass and compliment Sen Clinton (with the nutso third emailing Donna locked in the attic, like the first Mrs. Rochester of Jane Eyre hunched over her WiFi.)

    Can't wait to see what she'll be like when she gets tossed off the Fauxgressive (Powerline) Bus.

    Parent

    I wonder if he considers that his way (5.00 / 4) (#90)
    by nycstray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:20:23 PM EST
    of reaching out to us?

    Sure isn't working for me. Causes a very bad reation . . . .

    Parent

    I truly think it IS his way of (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:39:16 PM EST
    reaching out.

    When the idea that there was sexism somewhere in the campaign (not the media! not Obama!) floated briefly to the surface before the end of the primaries, his response was to chastise the Republicans for showing videos of Michelle deriding America.


    Parent

    Whoa! Hold on a minute! (5.00 / 14) (#155)
    by magnetics on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:56:01 PM EST
    There are plenty of dudes out there who are also, what should I call 'em, Hillary Dead Enders, who are outraged over the betrayal of party principles, not to mention the shabby, childish, and ultimately self-defeating behavior of the DNC.

    Count me as one.  I have voted Dem in every presidential election since McGovern, and consider myself a loyal Yellow Dog Democrat -- but I will likely sit out this November, unless HRC is on the ticket (which in a way I cannot hope for, since second fiddle is not really a suitable gig for one of her superior abilities.)

    I am not being politically correct, or a feminist about this (probably not really possible for a guy anyhow, although it's in some dudes' self descriptions).  It's simply that the party has chosen a totally unqualified candidate over one superbly qualified.

    Parent

    chosen a totally unqualified candidate . . . (5.00 / 7) (#197)
    by nycstray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:19:38 PM EST
    I'm with you 100% there. And that is just the start of my list of "what's wrong with this picture"

    but he does need to reach out to women AND all other Hillary supporters. From the feminist/woman's/men who really support women POVs, watching Hillary whack her head on the ceiling while this totally inexperience/unqualified male gets the nomination can't be fixed with a mere Hillary's great and I've got 2 daughters who will benefit. IMO ;)

    Parent

    The denial from many parties (5.00 / 10) (#37)
    by kmblue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:57:24 PM EST
    is the most painful part for me.

    Not the "well racism is worse", teh Clintons "were so awful", the pats on the head and the "you'll get over its."

    The denial hurts the most.  The dismissing of evidence and examples and the brushing off of half the population.

    Despite Obama's daughters, sexism still strategy (5.00 / 11) (#48)
    by Nike on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:03:47 PM EST
    Astutely put. It is important to anticipate, though, that sexism is not just one of the tools that Obama used to get the nomination. The sexism of this election cycle is not in the past. We will assuredly see more of it. Certainly, he and his supporters and, worse, the media and blogs used residual sexism to focus hatred for/resentment against/fear of Hilary Clinton. (Actual voting Democrats, by contrast, seem to have voted in ways that were relatively unbiased with respect to gender in ways that were impressive.) Obama's supporters and the media, if not the Obama campaign itself, are clearly running on a new threat narrative. (The old one was: if Obama does not get the nomination, there will be race riots, or Donna will quit the party, which she clearly saw as the same thing.) The new threat is: if you (women) don't vote for Obama, then you (women) deserve to have Roe v. Wade overturned. You deserve the coathangers. I cannot speak to the likelihood of the political outcomes, but I do not think this threat is good politics, let alone good ethics. Better to make your case on its merits.  

    AND, when he flip-flops on (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:07:45 PM EST
    this issue (like Iran, Iraq, health care, gas taxes, ad nausem...) will you please hold his feet to the fire and make him explain where in the H*LL (and that's not HILL) he has been for the past 8 months?

    he already has (5.00 / 4) (#85)
    by lizzie on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:17:49 PM EST
    Today the headlines were al about his flipflop. He is now ready to levy taxes on oil riches. "Obama says he would impose oil windfall profits tax". He said this while selling himself in Raleigh, NC.

    flip flop

    Parent

    And do you think the Republicans... (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:29:02 PM EST
    aren't noticing and making commericals...right now?

    That's a big NO!

    Parent

    Okay, through lurking (5.00 / 22) (#60)
    by txpolitico67 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:08:47 PM EST
    I HAD to comment on this.  Anyone who doesn't think that Obama took the "hole" that is spoken of here with regard to sexism and didn't drive an 18-wheeler through it to further his own cause is mistaken.

    Obama is the LAST person to claim a mantle of "new politics".  He used so many old tricks to slam Hillary Clinton.  Luckily for his policy-lacking a55 this is a patriarchal society, so HE's going to be able to BEAT her because the boys' clubs over at MSNBCrap and CNNonsense were going to ensure it.

    I know that TL is an official sponsor of the Democratic candidate Obama.  However, it pains me to know that Obama's blatant sexism, a compliant media, a silent DNC and the collusion of the RBC have gotten us to where we are today.

    The sexism paid off for him.  Where in history have women earned votes and taken away from them and given to their less than adequate male competitor?

    Sexism is what put Obama over the top.  The race card was just gravy.

    Good to know neither one of those will work against the GOP in the general.  They are sly enough to know not go get boxed in with either one of those.  They are going to make this an election about national security, so forget about the economy, stupid.

    Glad to have you. (5.00 / 7) (#71)
    by Cal on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:13:08 PM EST
    You took the leap in style.  :)

    Parent
    thanks (5.00 / 12) (#84)
    by txpolitico67 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:17:25 PM EST
    i actually have been on other blogs and i commented that i was prolly going to be on here less.  however, i stopped by and saw this topic, couldn't resist.

    o/t i saw that joshua thing.  wow.  old saying still holds true:  last time politics and religion mixed people (read: WOMEN) were burned at the stake.

    Parent

    Yeah, we are still nicely talking (5.00 / 3) (#176)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:08:59 PM EST
    among the usual group. There are issues and a lot of good diaries dealing with the issues. Don't stay away.

    Parent
    And remember what Joshua did, (5.00 / 3) (#186)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:12:50 PM EST
    he brought down the walls of Jericho. That makes me wonder which walls Obama plans on bringing down.

    Parent
    Why? Why did Obama feel it necessary to steal 4 MI (5.00 / 9) (#91)
    by jawbone on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:20:48 PM EST
    delegates?

    WHY?

    Parent

    And why do people who should know (5.00 / 10) (#97)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:22:56 PM EST
    (lots) better keep insisting four delegates is so unimportant?

    When they represent 600,000(!) voters....

    Parent

    It means (5.00 / 5) (#65)
    by kmblue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:11:31 PM EST
    experience is a great teacher.
    But you have to be alive for awhile to get those learning opportunities.

    so very true! (none / 0) (#182)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:11:42 PM EST
    The media... (5.00 / 8) (#67)
    by oldpro on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:11:59 PM EST
    and the Democratic left repeating every disgusting and misleading lie about the two most successful, talented Democrats in my adult lifetime.

    Next to either Clinton, Obama is an embarrassing joke...and the joke will be not just on us but on the entire country...perhaps the world...this fall.

    The only reason to have Hillary as VP (5.00 / 4) (#100)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:25:09 PM EST
    is so she can step in and clean up the mess after Obama is impeached, convicted and removed from office. How would that be for irony? Not to mention poetic justice. Heh.

    Parent
    Gloria Steinem makes an excellent (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:12:15 PM EST
    analysis of the sexism in play.

    The age factor (5.00 / 13) (#74)
    by txpolitico67 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:13:40 PM EST
    they haven't lived long enough to experience the glass-ceiling effect.

    One school of logic states that some of these woman don't see themselves as 'victims' of any kind of sexism, and see that argument as defeatist.

    They will find out soon enough.  And for those who don't, well good for them.  But then again, denial is not just a river in Africa.

    Dalton (5.00 / 7) (#217)
    by caseyOR on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:32:06 PM EST
    I've been reading your posts for quite some time. Even though you support Obama and I support Clinton, I have found that our positions are not always that far off. Having read your comments, I have to ask, "Why on earth do you support Obama?"

    That said, I think young women don't acknowledge sexism for a couple of reasons.

    • They were raised by women who were very familiar with sexism, and those women fought very hard to change things for their daughter. So, unlike when I was in school, girls got more attention in school. Thanks to the fight for Title VIIII, girls could be athletes, and and win. Girls were encouraged to go to college for the BS, not the MRS. Women my age battered down doors so our daughters could walk right on through.

    • As far as I know, feminism is the only movement for civil rights that has been battled with an unending application of ridicule. And ridicule is so insidious. It is easy for the perpetrator to deny and hard for the recipient to prove. Nobody likes to be laughed at. Instead of being seen as the fighters and pioneers they are, feminists were portrayed as jokes, as less than real women. And I think young women absorbed that message and tried to have it both ways. They want the opportunities feminists won for them, but they don't want to be tarred as a feminist because then they would open to ridicule.

    My mother grew up in the 30s and 40'. She is a nurse,and she always worked. I grew up very aware of how marginalized she was. I saw how hard society's rules made it for her to get out of a violent marriage, how impossible it was for her to get credit in her own name, how she could not buy a home for my sisters and me because she had to have a husband, or a father to co-sign, in order to get a mortgage.

    I experienced sexism from the minute I was born. So, I had no illusions about the lack of respect society has for women. Today's young women have led sheltered lives which will be shattered all too soon for them.

    Parent

    Obama's use of sexism was insulting to Sen. (5.00 / 16) (#76)
    by jawbone on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:14:02 PM EST
    Clinton--the politically life threatening attack was the charge of racism from his supporters and his campaign. And permitted by him. Along with the junk thrown at her about anyone named Kennedy (first it was racist to say that LBJ and JFK played a role in getting legislation, which is how governance is done of course, was disrespectful of MLK. Amazing. Then the awful accusations based on her mentioning the date of RFK's insurgent CA primary win--followed so painfully by his assassination.

    The MCM is still going on about how Bill and Hillary made racist remarks during the primary.

    This is unforgiveable, from one Dem to another decent Dem.

    And now? Oh, the wonderful Clintons--as long as they campaign for him?

    I took both personally: I actually asked a friend if she thought I was racist in some ways that I wasn't recognizing. She's pretty apolitical, but was herself angry with Obama for things he said and what he let his supporters do. Purely malicious. And coldly calculated to drive black voters away from the Clintons.

    Neither of these things is forgivable.

    I think the "99 problems" is a rumor (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by dianem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:17:18 PM EST
    At least I've never heard it reliably confirmed. Credit where credit is due - I don't think his campaign is that stupid, and the New York Post Page 6 is not the most credible source. I guess I'm a bit more sensitive to inneuendo right now, since I've been browsing on Daily Kos and have been amazed at the power of the echo chamber. I'd like to believe that responsible people try to nip things in the bud when they hear somebody say something that they have heard is untrue. That said, if I'm wrong and there has been confirmation of this, I apologize in advance.

    Since this is a Legal Blog (5.00 / 0) (#96)
    by kaleidescope on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:21:58 PM EST
    And since we all know how rampant sexism is in the legal profession, how many here have called out the law firms they work for when they see sexist treatment in the workplace?  How many have called out a superior?  How many have called out opposing (or co-) counsel?  How many have called out a judge?

    As legal workers we have great opportunities to "not be shut up about" sexism in our daily lives, especially in the workplace, and especially when it is a superior, judge or an opposing counsel -- a deputy attorney general, say -- who acts or speaks in a sexist manner.  

    Calling someone out may not be great for your client or your career, but, hey, what's right is right.

    that "periodically feeling down" (5.00 / 9) (#102)
    by lizzie on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:26:24 PM EST
    remark made my blood boil at the time, and still does. When I mentioned it to the young women I work with, they didn't get it! Can you believe that I had to sit down and explain to the 25-30 somethings I work with just what that meant.
    There is a part of me that thinks "Isn't it nice that not everything has a subliminal meaning". And then I think about it and determine that if they can't see it today, then maybe someone has to tell them what to look for in the future.  

    Which means that (5.00 / 7) (#117)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:34:26 PM EST
    they won't see it coming when it hits them.

    Karma's a b*tch.

    Parent

    Yeah, and you know who they will (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:07:41 PM EST
    go whining to for help, right?? The older generation. And if we have any sense, we will smile at them and say "Yes, we fought that battle years ago. You kids tossed out the progress we made during the election, and now you can live with it. Fight your own battles. Good luck!!"

    Parent
    i am reading that up to 43% of the hillary (5.00 / 6) (#138)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:45:26 PM EST
    voters will sit out this election or vote elsewhere. now you tell me that sexism isn't a problem. the chickens are getting on that karma truck for the long drive. you do it, you don't say anything about it, you dang well own it.

    Parent
    I'm 34 and heard this from (5.00 / 7) (#161)
    by eleanora on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:58:35 PM EST
    a few women my age as well. Some feminists would say they've been so ingrained in sexist stereotypes by our culture that they literally don't see it, and I agree somewhat. But I also think time and life experience teaches you that when even though your parents and teachers tell you, "Women can do or be anything!" they doesn't mean that you won't have a h*ll of a rough time getting there.

    Shakesville's Feminism 101 is a great resource that covers some points you might want to bring up to your friends:



    Parent
    There are THE two reasons... (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Mrwirez on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:26:27 PM EST
    I won't be voting for President in November:
    the first is I just don't like EITHER of these two A$$hats. Second, my person was trampled by the right and the LEFT....

    1 - http://tinyurl.com/55mb27

    2 - http://tinyurl.com/5w8nuz

    Of course the sexism contributed to her loss (5.00 / 12) (#109)
    by Foxx on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:30:15 PM EST
    She was laughed at and mocked and insulted nonstop on TV, in print, on the internet. Over and over again pundits and bloggers wished for her death. You think all of that did not affect how people see her? You think it did not frighten women into supporting Obama?

    i know sexism when i see it. (5.00 / 7) (#131)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:42:19 PM EST
    and i can very well figure how who supports it and even appears to actually enjoy seeing it happen. i won't deny my sense of reality for magical thinking. how dare he not stand up for women more than he did.

    what throws me almost more (5.00 / 5) (#147)
    by lizzie on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:51:42 PM EST
    than anything is the women who have used the slanderous sexist comments. And see nothing wrong with it!

    I just don't know what to make of it.

    ::shaking my head sadly::

    Parent

    sad to be sure! but look back in history. (5.00 / 3) (#154)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:55:44 PM EST
    that seems to be the way some portion of the population has always been that play from the small part in them. i too have taken the women leaders for granted. the ladies who marched to get my vote! the women who worked to see that i had choices! the men who were there and worked on the front lines with us or supported us at home. i never in my life thought i was less than. my father taught me to like myself and to LEARN. when i got out in the busines world, i was shocked i tell you at what i saw and had happen.

    Parent
    i chalk that up to the (5.00 / 3) (#169)
    by txpolitico67 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:06:08 PM EST
    stupidity of blacks calling each other the N word, gays and lesbians who use anti-gay slurs against each other...you get the drift.

    If we want the racism, sexism, and every other -ism out there to come to an end; it starts with ourselves.  i know a lot of good people who don't engage in -isms but for those who do, shouldn't b1tch and moan about it when they perpetuate the problem themselves.

    Hip-hoppers and Randi Rhoades...get my drift?

    Parent

    Young women...as Ann Richards (5.00 / 9) (#139)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:46:03 PM EST
    used to say..."They landed on third base and thought THEY had hit a triple".

    Methinks that they will just have to fight their own Rove v Wade fights 'cause I'm done with that now.  They obviously don't appreciate everything that we've done to get to this point in women's lives.

    Wait, I thought she said that (none / 0) (#181)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:10:32 PM EST
    about Bush Sr?

    Parent
    it means to me many of them take for (5.00 / 7) (#144)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:50:13 PM EST
    granted what many of us fought for and gradually changed the face of american society for the better. the conservative court has been gradually chipping away at those rights for decades all the way from the committment of funds to women's sports in school to the abortion issue. say what you will about abortion, but let me say this for consideration. desperate women will do desperate things. saying no won't stop them! they'll get it at the front door or the back door. so making more dangerous for our daughters does not serve their interests. sadly they take it for granted and don't know the world so recent and yet again so close.

    Got it right. They take for granted what took (5.00 / 10) (#202)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:23:38 PM EST
    place within the last 40 years. Maybe they should be the ones fighting the cause now. Many probably do not remember the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas hearings for a whole weekend. My Mom never left the television except when necessary. It brought to light one of the double standards existing. Immediately, companies all over America were having in house seminars on what was considered Sexual harassment. Things really changed in the work place. BTW, the ERA should have passed too. Maybe it is time to bring that one up again. How would he vote on it now?

    Parent
    OT: Tom Brokaw on Letterman with new book (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by nycstray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:52:05 PM EST
    called "Boom"

    Redefines the tumultuous 1960s, a decade that saw the rise of the rebellious children of the greatest generation, to reveal how American social, political, economic, and cultural institutions were transformed by an era of dramatic change.

    thought some folks might be interested :)

    You hit a pet peeve (none / 0) (#225)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:47:13 PM EST
    Why for heaven's sake is a book about the '60s titled "Boom"?  The word has nothing to do with the '60s, no resonance whatsoever.  I briefly heard him talk about it on some TV show or other, and it sounded to me like he didn't have the faintest clue what it was about.

    Parent
    This kind of assault on another woman (5.00 / 9) (#179)
    by Foxx on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:09:17 PM EST
    triggers women about all the times it has happened to them. All the times they have been in danger unless they submitted. I have been depressed for months because the relentless Hillary hatred has reminded me of so many things in my own life.

    Some of us resist it and fight back. But many women do not. They may not know their behavior is conditioned by fear, but it is.

    Frightening women is the purpose of all this hatred.

    fair point (none / 0) (#198)
    by dws3665 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:19:41 PM EST
    thanks for explaining. i guess something was inappropriate about my earlier response, as it's been deleted. i certainly did not mean to attack you, and i apologize if something i said was upsetting.

    Parent
    Here's a guess.... (5.00 / 8) (#196)
    by tree on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:18:54 PM EST
    I'm no longer a young woman, but, hey, I used to be one! I can remember back far enough to when I was one. In those days, being a young feminist was not particularly an easy task. I can remember as an 18 year old being asked by a teacher at a boys school to give a lecture on feminism . I was about average in attractiveness and the boys there were utterly dumbfounded that I was not some hideously ugly fat woman, because that's what they thought all feminists were-- simply bitter losers in the contest for male attraction. I have to admit that even though I strongly believed in what I was saying I was also aware that I was grateful that I wasn't seen as unattractive by these boys. I was still vulnerable to societal pressures, even though I knew those pressures were utterly demeaning and confining.

    Our culture puts a tremendous of pressure on young women to be attractive to men, and that means more than just physically attractive. It also means being pleasing and hip and uncritical. Its a very strong force exerted on young female minds. I suspect that many young women don't see the sexism because its painful to see and goes against all that cultural training. Its easier to see sexism and easier to stand up against it with more maturity and after life has given you a few good lessons about the pitfalls of always being "pleasing".

      I suppose my point is that I don't see the difference as just a generational one, but as a difference in maturity and life lived. I think its important to remember as well that not all young women were feminists in my generation either, and that it carried some stigma then just as it does now.  

    "Hell hath no fury (5.00 / 2) (#199)
    by Left of center on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:20:53 PM EST
    like a woman scorned" isn't just a saying, it's a scientific fact, and if you don't believe me, just wait till 40 states or so pop up red on the big map come November.

    It's not just the sexism (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:30:33 PM EST
    It's not just the racism.

    It's also the elitism and it's still going on.

    Andrea Mitchell's comment the other day about "rednecks" is a case in point.  She apologized for the mention, but only after an editorial trashed her.  The fact that a TV News anchor (albeit working for a gutter station) would think it's okay to label a whole class of people "rednecks" just goes to the atrocious elitism that is acceptable discourse in the media.  

    Here's the editorial I mentioned, which makes some really great points:

    Link

    A quote from the editorial:

    IF MITCHELL were telling Jeff Foxworthy jokes, and let's hope she could do it without all the "uhms" and "you knows," her lead would be: "You might be a redneck if you live in Southwest Virginia."
    I have a retort, however: You might be a gold digger if you marry a Fed chairman older than your daddy.
    Harsh? Maybe. But the last bastion of acceptable, politically incorrect stereotyping is making fun of Southerners. And we're damned tired of it.
    WHAT IF Mitchell had used this line for a John McCain rally in Harlem: "Interesting images today. John McCain and Mitt Romney, in Harlem. This is a real homeboy ... sort of ... uhm ... bordering on ghetto ... country. This is not the west side of Manhattan ... uh ... you know ... the upper crust of the island?"
    Al Sharpton would be protesting and the ACLU would be suing. And perhaps rightly so. But where are our special-interest defenders?

    True, yes?  Read his piece.  He uses Andrea to trash elitism and does it effectively and with some humor.

    Clinton's "fairytale" comment (5.00 / 5) (#222)
    by tree on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:37:46 PM EST
    about Obama being the anti-war candidate- For those who think it was a racist attack, here's the video

    216 (5.00 / 5) (#226)
    by shoulin4 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:49:02 PM EST
    Thank you very much for your comment. You just put into clear words my long-winded posts.

    I'm both proud and sad. Either way, whoever would have won, I'd be both proud and sad.

    That's all I'm saying, people. It was a disgrace to women and an actually real hope (unlike Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton) to African-Americans. Since I'm both female and African-American, I get offended and joyed on both fronts, and it has been an emotionally draining dance that I've been doing this primary season.

    One things is for sure, I do honestly appreciate Hillary Clinton for she has shed light on the overt sexism in this country, she truly pointed the flashlight on the hole in our culture. Despite what some may say, she truly did shatter glass ceilings, and I'm confident that we'll all be seeing many more women on the political front, not just in this country but in those that do look to us as an example. Pardon me for saying, but I think, in a way, Hillary Clinton was and is for women what Jesse Jackson was for blacks when he ran. He lost, and perhaps unfairly (since, apparently to one person, I'm ten-years-old, I can't remember that far back), but he opened the door for blacks, and I believe that Hillary not only re-opened the door for women, she ripped it off its hinges, burned it, and dared any person, let alone any chauvinist, to make a new one. I do appreciate and revere her for that.

    Brush off the shoulder not sexist? (5.00 / 2) (#229)
    by FemB4dem on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 12:31:39 AM EST
    Perhaps I haven't seen and heard enough of it, but it seems to me that 99% of hip hop is, by its nature, sexist.  The idea that Obama feels prefectly free to reference hip hop favorably is, IMO, one of the reasons he seems so arrogant and, yes, sexist, to so many women who are not part of the hip hop generation.

    I can't tell you how many Obama girls I've had tell me "ho" is not a sexist term, that it's cute and funny.  UGH!

    To the Masses (5.00 / 0) (#230)
    by shoulin4 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 12:32:02 AM EST
    How is the "fairytale" thing racist? How is the "brush" thing sexist?

    Yes, I understand he was talking about his policy positions, bit let's "get real." Neither Bill nor Hillary are racists. However, it has been perceived by some Obama supporters that both Clintons belittled Obama personally and on more than one occasion. In no way am I implying that this is sentiment of only the Obama supporters.

    It was not the "fairytale" just in itself that is perceived as racist, but the tone of the Clinton campaign that belittled Obama and his supporters (at times, of course not all of the time), and specifically, although not blantant or outright, targetting and molding Obama as "the black candidate," who doesn't stand a chance just like the other "the black candidate"s.

    Now look, we can sit here and play he said she said all night (ET), but when it comes right down to it, all I'm saying that bigots existed on both sides of the table, and for "some people to still be unaware of it or to blatantly ignore it" don't have the right to contribute to this discussion (/sarcasm).

    Newsflash: The current scorecard for the woman (who actually lives in the South and has experienced both overt sexism and racism) is as follows. 10-years-old, and undeserving to contribute to a discussion about race. Any bets that she is also undeserving to contribute to a discussion about sex? Stay tuned!

    Seriously, for the most part, I've really been enjoying and enlightened by this discussion, despite what may be perceived (again pereption is key), but I have to go to work tomorrow afternoon after my Chinese class, so I must say "Zai Jian" or better yet, "Ming Tian Jian," and also, "Da Jia, Xie Xie Nimen, Wo Juede Nimen Hen You Yisi!" It's been fun having a civil discussion (perception), and no trouble that was caused was intended on my part, and if there was trouble, I am truly sorry, and apologize for those who do make trouble for the sake of making trouble. I'm just trying to bring my perspective (I like that word, too) into the picture without being a sexist man, an ignorant child, or an outright reverse-racist.

    Good night, and thanks for your kind words :-)

    Has the brushing birdsh*t off your shoe (5.00 / 2) (#232)
    by FemB4dem on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 12:51:56 AM EST
    part also been in your culture since the 60's?  What about "I've got 99 Problems but a B*tch ain't one?"  Is that rap or hip hop?  Is it sexist or not?  BTW I really don't know the answer to what form it is, but I'm clear on the answer to my last, rhetorical question.

    Clinton Drives Media (5.00 / 1) (#234)
    by fctchekr on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 05:33:40 AM EST
    There's a preoccupation with her and sexism is partially attributable. With her history and affiliations she is understandably novel. Is it because she's a woman, attractive, smart, vivacious, funny and at the same time a mensch?   Probably, but there's more. People want to read about her because of her life and history;and they love her or hate her. She brings out strong feelings in people for different reasons.( I don't think anyone that garners the love the way she and Bill do, can possibly escape the hate.)  There's no question some media pundits articulated the most out-of-bounds comments toward her, hateful, aggressive, i.e. Toobin,Olbermann.  

    www.journalism.org

    http://www.comcast.net/articles/tv/20080608/AP.on.TV.Clinton_s.Exit/

    sexism wasn't the ONLY thing (5.00 / 8) (#235)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 08:56:24 AM EST
    but it was certainly part ofthe cause of Clinton's problems.  The sexism that went unchallenged by anyone allowed Clinton to be diminished and dehumanized.  It alloweed for all the personal attacks to go unchallenged.  It gace acceptance to Obama supporters who, when confroned with the charges, responded that the attacks were justified because Clinton IS a B*tch or because she deserves the treatment she was getting.  They basically turned sexism into "Clintonism" and claimed it wouldn't have happened to any other woman.

    But, In addition to the sexism, there were a couple of other issues that damaged her campaign.

    1. The media's constant interpretation of anything Hillary or any one of her surrogates said in the worst possible light.  The media always took the opinion that if a Clinton said it, it had to have a "hidden negative" meaning to it somewhere because nothing would ever come out of their mouth without such a meaning.  Along with this, anytime a surrogate spoke, it was automatically assumed that they spoke at the direction and with the full knowledge and support of Clinton.  The media NEVER did this with Obama or his surrogates.  In fact the constant refrain from Obama supporters was that if it didn't come directly from Obama's mouth, then he had nothing to do with it.

    2. The media pile on early in the race in labeling Clinton statements as racist when they were not.  I have heard the fairytale remark called racist, Shaheen's drug use comments, the LBJ/MLK comment, Bills statement of "roll of the dice" on the Charlie Rose show was called racist by Chris Matthews.  The 3AM phone call ad was called racist by a guest on Chris Matthews show.  He basically said it was racist because there was not a black child depicted in the ad.  But, when Clinton came back and showed the black child in the ad, the racism charge wasn't corrected.

    It is my belief, and no one will convince me otherwise, that it was always an intended tactic of Axelrod to use the false charges of racism to dilute Clinton's support in the black community.  It was the only way Obama would be able to win and it is a specialty of Axelrod campaigns.

    Many of us will never forget... (5.00 / 8) (#236)
    by Berkshireblue on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 09:16:20 AM EST
    Obama supporters have been online exhorting people to watch/support NBC, MSNBC, Olbermann because they are the only places that support "progressive" candidates and causes. Not in my book they don't. Trash talkin jock wanna be Olbermann will never be on my viewing schedule. Their blatant hatred of the woman who dared to challenge the "cool guy" who sent chills up their legs was a spectacle that needs to be preserved and remembered and fought against but which was ignored by many of my fellow Dems because it benefitted their candidate and so was dismissed, ignored, pooh-pooh, called whining and waaahing by lonely old women who would soon die off and not be able to vote anymore.

    This primary season has been a real eye opener and what I see isn't pretty. Dems demonizing the Clintons, bogus racism charges against them and their supporters and the concurrent use of sexism to advance. What did I learn-Dems are no better then Repubs in many ways.

    Now the fear card-if you don't support Obama you're personally responsible for overturning Roe v Wade and you're no better than a murderer. Gee, that tactic sounds familiar. I don't need that kind of drama to know where my interests lie.

    David Brock (5.00 / 2) (#239)
    by esmense on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 10:02:48 AM EST
    who, in the 90s, worked for the conservative publication, American Spectator, that was basically the official organ of "the Arkansas Project," wrote in his book about his experience that magazine circulation went through the roof whenever Hillary was pictured (dependably in some really ugly way) on the cover.

    I think that this reality, and history, provided a financial motivation for a lot of Hillary bashing features and articles -- in broadcast, in the small circulation poltitical magazines like The New Republic (which is still bashing away, days after she has left the race), in the online version of magazines like The Atlantic, in left blogs like Kos and TPM. Olbermann has obviouosly been just following the American Spectator marketing plan -- and in doing so garnered a lot of new, young male viewers (one of the hardest demographics to capture, and, for advertisers, one of the most desirable). Sad to say, misogyny pays. And pays big.

    It is kind of ironic, isn't it, that the most virulent sexism exhibited over this primary season has come from young men -- the contemporaries, partners, lovers, co-workers and friends of the young women who claim sexism is no longer a problem. These young women either don't have a clue, or have totally accepted and internalized the disdain and disrespect with which they are regarded.

     

    there is a BIG difference between the way (5.00 / 4) (#241)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 10:16:38 AM EST
    the racism and the sexism were handled.  Those saying that Clinton should have denounce the racism for Obama if we expected Obama to do the same for racism tend to forget.....  everytime anything even remotely racist (and some of it was imagined) came up EVERYONE in te media and the DNC and the dem leadership immediately jumped in to go to bat for Obama.  That NEVER happened for Clinton.  So, Obama didn't need any help from Clinton on the racism, he had everyone else.  And, at least half the time it was her campaign that was being falsely charged with racism by the media anyway.

    Over The Top? (3.00 / 1) (#238)
    by Blue Jean on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 09:56:25 AM EST
    Your comparison with Nader voters is over the top, especially since we are not now stuck with shrub, we have Obama, who is a great choice too.

    Well, maybe I would be, if I said being stuck with Obama was like being stuck with Shrub.  But I didn't.  The Nader folks couldn't bring themselves to vote for Gore, who was pro-death penalty, so they voted for Nader, thus splitting the anti-Shrub total.  Thus, Shrub got close enough for the Supreme Court to bail him out and the rest is history.

    The same thing's going to happen again.  "Oh, we couldn't vote for someone who voted for the AUMF!" (never mind that she would have lost her Senate seat and thus not be a candidate if she voted against it.) so the weaker candidate got enough of a boost to limp across the finish line.  

    HRC could have taken McCain apart; Obama's barely ahead as it is.  If Obama loses, as I'm afraid he will, we'll be stuck with McCain who's far more pro-war than Hillary ever was on her worst day.  

    Obama could still win--if he picks HRC as Veep, or at least offers it to her first.  But some of the Dems would obviously rather lose with a perfect candidate than win with the moderates' help.

    Why would anyone listen to Mike Barnacle? (none / 0) (#99)
    by shoephone on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:24:58 PM EST
    He's a plagiarist and a joke.

    Well, I like his cartoons. (none / 0) (#108)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:29:54 PM EST
    Hi I'm New Here (none / 0) (#105)
    by shoulin4 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:27:27 PM EST
    Let me first start off by saying that I'm not here to start any trouble, but I have visited this site often to really see what Clinton supporters are saying. I seem to notice many posters who are women and are tired of being preyed upon and persecuted, and rightfully so. However, I happen to be a woman, and although I believe that the general MSM was quite unfair to Hillary, I still didn't vote for her. Let me also make this clear. Yes, I am black, no I didn't vote for Obama for his race, I voted for him because, in my personal and honest opinion, both Hillary and Barack shared many, nearly all, of the same policies, most of which I agree with: I just personally felt, and still do feel, that Barack has a better chance of getting those policies off of the ground smoothly. Nothing at all personal.

    Now I think I've sort of lost my point . . . To make my long-winded statement short, while I am female and do believe that Hillary was treated unfairly, I don't believe that Obama is 100% responsible for the unfairness, and I quite honestly think it is unfair for some supporters of either candidate to blame the opposing candidate entirely for society's perception of what is acceptable and what isn't.

    One more point that I'd like to make perfectly clear to whomever it may concern: I'm not here to recruit or ask or plead or beg Hillary supporters to support Barack. If you want to support him, then support him. If you don't want to support him, then don't. Or rather, do what you want, or don't do what you want. It's a free country. Likewise, I won't ask or plead or beg. I'll just present a different view into the equation. That's all.


    I am white and I am Male... (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by Mrwirez on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:35:29 PM EST
    who should I vote for?

    Parent
    Vote for (none / 0) (#134)
    by shoulin4 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:43:22 PM EST
    who you think will do the best job based on your research, knowledge, and sound judgement. At least, that is my opinion.


    Parent
    And what part of your research told (5.00 / 9) (#219)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:35:05 PM EST
    you that
    Barack has a better chance of getting those policies off of the ground smoothly.
    He hasn't really done any real legislation. He takes credit for other people's work, he is good at that, but what has he done himself?? Not a lot. The legislation he claims to have passed in IL turns out to be the work of others. So do a lot of the bills he claimed to have done in Washington. His main contribution to legislation seems to be attaching earmarks to it. To the tune of $300 million so far. And his absenteeism in the Senate is among the highest of any Senator. He has 41% of the votes in the same term as Hillary Clinton. Just exactly what about Obama leads you to think he is capable of formulating policies and then doing something about them?? I have seen no indication of such an inclination in him so far. Where do you see it? And don't tell me he gives good speeches. Policy isn't a speech. You don't get to use a Teleprompter, you have to come up with your own ideas. He doesn't seem to have many ideas of his own regarding policy. If he did, he would be able to explain them in detail. He can't. He refers people to his website, where they can read boiler-plate written by his staff. Until he can manage to actually say something besides Uh and Um when asked about his policies, I wouldn't put too much stock in his ability to carry them out. Before you can carry out a policy, you have to know what it is. He doesn't seem to know.

    Parent
    exaggeration (5.00 / 5) (#120)
    by dws3665 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:35:57 PM EST
    No one is saying Obama is "100% responsible" for it. They are saying that it was firmly within his power to make a strong stand against it, and to refrain from it himself, and to direct his campaign to avoid it.

    Oh. For. Three.

    That's the problem, not that Obama is the source of all things misogynistic and sexist.

    Parent

    not really, just trying to make a point (1.00 / 1) (#145)
    by shoulin4 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:50:22 PM EST
    It was also within Hillary's power to make a strong stand against the racism, the vast majority of which did not eminate from her campaign, but some portion of it did.

    I just get the feeling sometimes that somehow all Obama supporters are either mysoginistic men, ignorant children, or outright reverse-racists. I'm not saying that these are the only things that make up this or other places, I'm just saying that I get that feeling, and I think it's just as unfair as the likes of the Huffing Post portraying Hillary supporters as angry women, ignorant adults, or outright racists. (::points to sig::)

    Parent

    she made several such statements (5.00 / 5) (#166)
    by dws3665 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:03:32 PM EST
    But they weren't taken seriously because of the avalanche of distortions that kept getting thrown at her. After LBJ/MLK, "Jesse Jackson," and Ferraro's comments, in particular, Clinton strongly repudiated racism by her supporters and everywhere (though it was usually imagined). Obama never seemed to be held responsible for the swipes at Clinton, at least not to the same degree.

    You don't do yourself any favors when you defend your candidate against arguments that no one is making ("100% responsible"). That was my only quibble with your first post.

    Look, I'm not saying this is a contest about who was more badly done to than whom. That's silly. And no, I don't believe for one second that all Obama supporters are misogynistic men, ignorant children, or racists. Except on AmericaBlog. ;-) This is about how to come together at this point, if possible, and go forward. And like it or not, Obama has to take responsibility for reaching out to Clinton voters, and some of us think he has some explaining to do.

    Parent

    well said (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by bjorn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:37:05 PM EST
    I don't hold Obama responsible for the sexism in the campaign, but I do wish he would have spoken out against it.  I was looking for a leader and I just felt like Clinton had the chops to lead.  Obama, while I find him a great speaker and a smart, interesting person...I have not seen signs of true leadership, bravery if you like.  But welcome and look forward to hearing more from you. FYI I am voting for Obama unless he picks one of the "forbidden" see my post earlier in the thread.


    Parent
    Oh, I do (5.00 / 6) (#162)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:59:37 PM EST
    Not 100% of it, of course not.  But it's a big pie and there's plenty to go around.  He happily leveraged every bit of it.

    And then there's the tsunami of misogyny erupting from DKos, MyDD, TPM, Politico, etc etc.  The early Obama campaign made a point of touting their netroots campaign and how they'd be so much more effective than Clinton because they were 'wired in' and way more hip than she was. On many occasions it was clear just how tied in the Obama campaign was to the MSM and the netroots -- remember the email blast 'interpreting' Hillary's RFK comment as both racist and wishing for his assasination?

    He could have shut that all down had he acted early on.  But he raced with it instead.  At some point probably even he probably couldn't stop that particular flood of malevolence, but he failed to even try.

    And shoulin4, vote your conscience.  I sure will be.

    Parent

    Not the point (5.00 / 14) (#146)
    by echinopsia on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:50:30 PM EST
    I don't believe that Obama is 100% responsible for the unfairness

    The point is that he accepted the sexism like a gift and NEVER spoke out against it. He also added his own little sexist remarks to the mix.

    He could have stood up and said that sexism is as wrong as racism. He gave The Speech and never said a word about sexism.

    All along we said he could have spoken out and lost nothing, and gained much, by renouncing and rejecting the sexism of his surrogates, his followers, the Democratic Party, and the media.

    He didn't do it. He still has not done it. Instead he chose to benefit from it.

    Hillary spoke out against racism; she's on record all her life as working and speaking against it.

    Obama cannot claim the same thing about sexism.

    Parent

    Beautiful encapsulation (5.00 / 8) (#180)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:09:52 PM EST
    he accepted the sexism like a gift

    Just perfect!

    Parent

    It is my point, (1.00 / 1) (#160)
    by shoulin4 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:58:04 PM EST
    just as that is yours, thanks.

    I don't doubt the efforts of both Clintons to speak out against racism. Heck, Bill was dubbed the first black president.

    In no way do I believe that either of them are racists. What I do believe is that they didn't speak out about it when it was politically advantageous in this campaign to not speak out about it, or even fan the flames.

    Both Hillary and Obama have benefited from bigots. That goes without saying.

    Parent

    No. Sorry. (5.00 / 9) (#177)
    by echinopsia on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:09:02 PM EST
    Both Hillary and Obama have benefited from bigots.

    No, they did not. Obama is the only one who benefited from sexism and racism. Hillary did not.

    What I do believe is that they didn't speak out about it when it was politically advantageous in this campaign to not speak out about it, or even fan the flames.

    They DID speak out against racism, when they were falsely accused of being racists. Hillary apologized many times for being accused of being racist. She had no need to do so; her life accomplishments speak for her.

    (The Clintons? Racists? GMAFB.)

    SHE was the one who went to AA events - the MLK event, the Tavis Smiley event. SHE is the one who faced hostile audiences to reach out. Not Obama.

    Obama NEVER apologized for being sexist, and he never EVER said a word about sexism.

    He still has not.

    Parent

    'However, I happen to be a woman' (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:57:16 PM EST
    Not me. I picked it. (Karma points.)

    I'm black and a woman. So who should I vote for, then?

    I don't mean to be matronizing here, but why not vote for who you think is the best candidate, who best represents you, and who you believe will acquit his or her oath of office and uphold and defend the constitution?

    Or be a Budgie Voter who, upon looking in a mirror, thinks s/he sees another budgie and is all happy on the lil'swing.

    Write your own ticket.

    Or stay home if you like.

    Your vote, your franchise. Use it or lose it.


    Parent

    I did vote for who (5.00 / 0) (#168)
    by shoulin4 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:05:05 PM EST
    I thought was best. I'm just saying it's a bit disheartening to be accused of racism and sexism (and to some extent, being subjected to agism, lol) at the same time for not voting for Clinton.

    What I'm saying is, for all of the talk of the glass ceiling, I have yet to hear of the doubly-thick glass ceiling that African-American women face.

    For women, Hillary's suspension was a enormous let-down for women. For blacks, Barack's presumptive win was a moment to be proud of. But, I ask in pure curiosity, what was this primary season for black women? Was it a let-down, a proud moment, or just a turmoil of confusion?

    Parent

    i have no idea what you're getting at (5.00 / 4) (#183)
    by dws3665 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:12:06 PM EST
    This thread is not about Obama supporters being sexist. It's about the media being sexist. Obama certainly has sexist supporters, as Clinton has some racist ones. No one is accusing you of anything (except, oddly, of being 10 years old! ;-)).

    For all the talk of the glass-ceiling ... what you saying here? Would it be even harder for an African American woman? Almost certainly. It would be even harder for an atheist lesbian. I have no idea what your point is.

    As for what this primary season was for black women, if the performance of Donna Brazile sets any example, I think it was a resounding FAIL!

    Parent

    This article yes, (none / 0) (#212)
    by shoulin4 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:30:42 PM EST
    some posters in this and other threads, no.

    I'm not implying that the glass ceiling is imaginary.

    My point is that I hear more about women as a whole being failed by society than African American women actually making their glass ceiling less thick. That should be just as curious if so-and-so was a Chinese-American man and such-and-such was atheist lesbian and they both ran for presidential nominee and the Chinese-American man won, and it was seen mostly, if not just, as a resounding defeat for atheist lesbians. It is just as much of a defeat to atheist lesbians as it is a victory for Chinese-American women.

    Donna Brazile does not speak for me, just as Robert Johnson doesn't speak for me. To you, it may seem that it has been "a resounding fail" for black women, but to me, it seems that black women may have obtained a match in the damp cave for doubly or triply persecuted women in the United States.

    Parent

    Oooh, the irony (5.00 / 4) (#203)
    by echinopsia on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:23:44 PM EST
    it's a bit disheartening to be accused of racism

    Welcome to a Clinton supporter's world, sweetie.

    Parent

    Eleanor Holmes Norton (5.00 / 4) (#216)
    by eleanora on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:32:03 PM EST
    was asked early in this campaign why she wasn't endorsing either candidate. She said, "But, particularly this year, I've got two good friends running. And look at me. Look at me, Wolf. I'm a black woman. It's pretty hard to make some early decision when everything that you have fought for all of your life comes true, all in one election."

    What a joyous and horrible dilemma for all women of color, and whatever you chose, you both won and lost. As a white woman who cares deeply about civil rights and equality for all, I felt pretty torn myself in January. Now I would love to rejoice wholeheartedly at having the first black nominee ever in our country's history and cherish the idea of seeing the Obama family walking down Pennsylvania Avenue towards the White House next fall. But that joy is tainted with sorrow at the way it all went down and the price that was paid to get there.

    Parent

    Shoulin4...if you are black and a woman (none / 0) (#228)
    by oldpro on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 12:22:47 AM EST
    then you are the one to answer your question...

    ...as a black woman, who do you trust more to deal with your issues and concerns as our president...a woman or a man...in this particular case, a black man?  Are black men, for instance, known to be sensitive to the issues of black women?  To the issues concerning ANY women?

    If you can answer that question honestly, then you would know for whom to vote.

    Parent

    He has to take responsibility for some of it (5.00 / 6) (#165)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:02:20 PM EST
    All he had to do was say to the media, lay off the sexism. If he said that to them, I must have missed it. It was an open field day on being able to voice sexist remarks. And not only should Obama have been more of a leader (But he did want to win)so should have Howard Dean and every Democratic Senator and Congressman. And, it would not have hurt the Republicans to step up also. As long as they stayed silent it was a slap in the face to all women including yourself. You just do not realize it yet.

    Parent
    Thanks, but (none / 0) (#193)
    by shoulin4 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:17:56 PM EST
    I've received plenty of "slaps in the face" for me to stomach in the great year of 2008.

    You're right, he has not on record said, "media, lay off the sexism," and it is true that by not saying it, he, willingly or not, used it to his advantage and needs to own up to his mistakes.

    At the same time, at times throughout the season, I was personally offended by some of the things people within the Clinton campaign were saying/doing. Just as some women feel that the "brush off the shoulders" move was belittling Clinton and sexist to boot, I felt that she and Bill both referring to Obama, in effect, as a fairytale was belittling Obama and racist to boot. Now while Clinton herself apologized for some of it (just as Obama apologized for some things), I felt, just as some Clinton supporters felt about Obama, that it was disengenious and pure political "butt-saving," which of course no politician is free from doing.

    I don't think either Clinton is racist, I just think they used the hook to their advantage, just as some Hillary supporters (I assume) don't personally believe that Obama is truly sexist, but that he and his camp used the hook to his advantage.

    The only difference is that it, in terms of net gain, helped him more than it hurt her, and thus the slap in the face as far is society and sexism is concerned. I was, as a woman, slapped, but I would've been equally slapped it the tables were turned.

    Sorry it took a while to get to the final point. I'm naturally long-winded, and perhaps bothersome to boot.

    Parent

    tell you what, i am insulted by the (5.00 / 13) (#201)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:23:04 PM EST
    brush off the shoulder and wipe off the shoe. dang right, i am offended. i'll be offended about that till the day i die. i didn't start off as a hillary supporter. in fact i was disgruntled with her several time before she chose to run. but i won't allow her to be treated that way. i won't let someone say it didn't happen. i won't let obama off the hoof for he did and didn't do.

    Parent
    Bill Clinton did not refer to (5.00 / 12) (#213)
    by tree on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:31:11 PM EST
    Obama as a fairytale. He referred to Obama's anti-war stance as a fairytale. Obama's surrogates race baited by distorting what Bill Clinton said, implying that Obama's running for the Presidency was a fairytale.

     See what we mean? Obama's campaign distorted what was said, just as they distorted Hillary's LBJ comment and her RFK comment, in order to race bait.

    Parent

    Do explain (5.00 / 6) (#214)
    by echinopsia on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:31:16 PM EST
    I felt that she and Bill both referring to Obama, in effect, as a fairytale was belittling Obama and racist to boot

    Well, except that that is not what they said (Bill was specifically talking about Obama's record on his Iraq war stance(s), not Obama himself), and except that it's a mystery to me how "fairy tale" is racist.

    Perhaps you could explain that, since no one else has ever been able to. Fairy tales are of Western European origin - how is it racist to say that Obama's account of his supposed (not actual) record of ALWAYS having been against the war is a fairy tale (ie, not true)?

    Parent

    okay (5.00 / 11) (#218)
    by dws3665 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:32:28 PM EST
    your talking points are showing. In no way did Bill refer to Obama as a fairy tale, and that you continue to put forth that blatant falsehood tells me exactly what your powers of reason are. He referred to Obama's supposed staunch anti-war credentials as a fairy tale (which is certainly an arguable point).

    That you, at this late date, choose to either pretend not to know this, or actually don't know this, reveals that you are not serious about engaging in a discussion of racism in the campaign.

    Parent

    Neil Cavuto is busy getting laughs (none / 0) (#215)
    by Newt on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:31:34 PM EST
    from misogynist comments in his My Tips for Barack Obama at http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,364767,00.html

    Tell your wife Michelle to share her favorite recipe. I know it sounds sexist, but her "never in my lifetime" remarks have some thinking "never let her speak again."


    To #203 (none / 0) (#220)
    by shoulin4 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:35:19 PM EST
    (sorry, my reply button isn't working)

    Don't forget that I also said sexism. Welcome to a female-Obama-supporter's world, hun.

    tree 222 (none / 0) (#227)
    by shoulin4 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 12:07:55 AM EST
    Thanks for the video, a good reference, and a legitimate means for context, which is always appreciated and learned from.

    So how about the "brush off the shoulders" thing? I think I can clarify. In my community, it's an old move signaling that when people are trying to put you down, you just have to get up, brush the dirt off of your shoulders and keep running. Kanye West did a rap song and video doing that very same thing (as an aside, I hate his lyrics, but I generally get his point). I'd post a link to a music video, but I really hate his lyrics and don't want to distract from the main idea. That move is almost as old as the "hip, new" fist bumb (that the media seems to be so fascineted with) in my comm.

    The Bill "fairytale" comment 99.999% likely wasn't racist, just as the Obama "shoulder brush" is 99.999% likely not sexist. It's all about perception, IMO. Some perceived Clinton and co. as belittling (elitist) and at times racist, some perceived Obama as belittling (elitist) and at times sexist. Did it exist? Yes. More on one side than the other? Minus the MSM, it's hard to say, IMO.

    Ok, I just had to address this (none / 0) (#231)
    by shoulin4 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 12:42:21 AM EST
    then I'll go.

    Like I said, that move existed way before Kanye West was doing it, so Obama wasn't referencing hip-hop, per se, he was referencing something that has been in our culture probably since the 60s (like the aforementioned "fist bump"). Heck, my own mom was doing it before Kanye ever made a song about it

    Also, as an aside, hip-hop by nature is political/social. Rap by nature is sexist. I think the term ho is inappropriate, not cute and not funny, just as I think the term n*gger and all of its variations is inappropriate, not cute, and not funny. Hip-hop is dead, rap is an abomination, and Bob Johnson (among others) should be arrested for terrorism against the black communtiy.

    Can I say again how much I hate Kanye's lyrics?

    Was it really (none / 0) (#233)
    by shoulin4 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 01:13:09 AM EST
    birdsh*t off your shoe? I didn't know he meant it that way. I assumed that he was encompassing the whole "brush the dirt off" theme. I guess that's what I get for assuming (/sarcasm)

    OK, let me say it loud and clear: I am not a fan of rap. I am a fan of "old-school" hip-hop and "99 problems," my friend is rap. I hate Jay Z just as much as I hate most of Kanye's lyrics. I'm greatly disappointed that that song was playing at his rally, and it just goes back to my point of being proud and sad at the same time. Does he control the music at his rallies, or does he have someone plan it for him? I've been to his rallies, and all I've heard was clean music (this, of course, was after that incident), so he probably took note of that offense and made sure it didn't happen again.

    Anyway, could he have apologized? Yes. Did he? Not on record. Was he asked to apologize? Not on record. Does it really matter whether or not he was asked? No, but you know as well as I that none of the candidates of either party would have liked to draw any attention to their not-so-nice sayings/doings if they could get away with it. Of course, this is not to say that all of the candidates conspired to triwl their evil mustaches and committ evil deeds just to see what they could get away with. Bad choice in words, actions, and yes, even music, has permeated this entire primary season, but no one is perfect.

    Of course you know the answer to your own rhetorical question, just as well as I know (and have already stated).

    Democrats destroying themselves? (none / 0) (#237)
    by phoebecaulfield on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 09:51:11 AM EST
    I am so frustrated with all this,  Of course sexism was in play here and yes the press was hardest on clinton.  I think that BOTH campaigns took advantage of remarks and actions that were not intended as sexist or racist and amplified them, and the media and the public ate it up.  This is how campaigns have been run for many years in the US and it is terrible.  Many of the racist and sexist accusations were overplayed. ie bill clintons fairytale remark, and the jesse jackson remark, but they ended up offending people that perhaps were looking for offense.  I also think the brush off the shoulder thing has nothing to do with sexism, but obviously people were offended.  

    It is so sad that in a historic campaign like this, with what I see two great candidates for the democrats, with the biggest turnout for primaries ever the democrats are accusing each other of being evil, sexist and racist.   Are we sure Karl Rove did not arrange for this, that we are all offended at each other so we don't win?  

    Fight the battles that matter.  
    1. Fix and fight the press, the  press is shameful, let us change it.  2. If you don't like the situation with Florida and Michigan, get involved with your state DNC and argue for primary reform, and not just getting your particular state earlier on the calender. 3. FInd good candidates and support them.

    Remember we currently have an administration that clearly lied to the american people about Iraq, who put in place changes that resulted in the mortgage crisis, that are threatening war with Iran.  Let us not somehow miss our chance like we did in 2004 to get rid of these guys, McCain has many neocons as his advisors so I suspect much of the same.