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McCain Attacks Obama For Lack Of Military Experience

So is getting shot down in a fighter plane a qualification for being President? Apparently John McCain thinks so:

He disparaged Obama as "someone who has no military experience whatsoever." "When you win wars, troops come home," McCain said. "He's been completely wrong on the issue. ... I have been steadfast in my position."

For those wondering, John McCain has never won a war. He has no strategic experience and his judgment on urging the United States attack Iraq proved him capable of a strategic blunder of epic proportions. The Iraq Debacle completely undermined our efforts in Afghanistan against the Taliban and Al Qaida.

John McCain is not an incompetent on foreign policy because he served in the military. But he is not competent because he did serve in the military.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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    Damn, you made my comment (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:56:10 PM EST
    Because saying "when you win wars" invites the question you ask. Perhaps McCain can explain how he was instrumental in beating North Vietnam.

    If I were really going to be nasty, I would say that the doddering old man can't even remember which wars we've won. Or maybe he helped North Vietnam beat the U.S.? /Evil Grin

    Not appropriate (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by dianem on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:13:29 PM EST
    As I commented to BTD, please avoid this kind of talk. It's not political correctness, just common sense. If you want to get everybody who has ever been in the military behind McCain, the quickest way is to start to denigrate his and other soldier's experiences in Vietnam. It's a painful subject, and made even more so by the possibility that we will not achieve a concret "win" in Iraq.

    Parent
    Please stop telling people what to write (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:16:50 PM EST
    I have a right to my opinion, too (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by dianem on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:19:32 PM EST
    You don't have to listen, or read. You can even ban me, if you want. But I have as much of a right to express my opinion that something isn't appropriate as somebody has to say things that I condsider not appropriate.

    Parent
    Fair enough (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:21:12 PM EST
    I am telling you to stop telling people what to write.

    BTW, McCain sucks.

    Parent

    lol (none / 0) (#49)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:22:48 PM EST
    Admitting that we lost a war (5.00 / 0) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:19:58 PM EST
    that should have never been fought is not denigrating those that served in it.  In my experience Vietnam is only a painful subject for Neocon wingers.  In the modern U.S. military Vietnam is a study of what not to do and is often studied exactly that way in classrooms.

    Parent
    That isn't my experience (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:28:08 PM EST
    Vietnam is a painful subject for many from both sides of the aisle not just neocons.

    While I agree with the premise that being a POW doesn't necessarily make you a great fit for CiC I don't think making fun of that experience is necessarily smart either.

    Parent

    Making fun of that experience? (none / 0) (#64)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:31:14 PM EST
    WTF? Seriously. WTF?

    Parent
    I don't think he is refering directly (1.00 / 0) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:32:16 PM EST
    to you, just to past experiences and of course there will sadly be Obama supporters who will make fun.

    Parent
    I'm an Obama supporter (5.00 / 0) (#84)
    by scribe on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:51:18 PM EST
    and I don't make fun of the guys who were POWs.

    When I was in, I served alongside a guy who'd been captured and held for more than a few years.  In one of those "only in the Army" things, his son was one of my soldiers, too.

    Dad looked like death warmed over and moved even more slowly, from the treatment he'd received as a captive.

    But, the fundamental canard of McSame's candidacy is the implict claim that being a torture victim and former POW automatically converts your judgment, character, fitness and rationality into solid gold eggs that the goose sh*t just this morning.  In my experience, that sort of transmutation of crap into gold only happens for the sons of flag officers.

    Oh.  Right.

    Parent

    Or, for those who rank in the bottom five (none / 0) (#112)
    by MKS on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:28:25 PM EST
    of their class--like George Armstrong Custer.

    Parent
    See i'd stop calling him McSame (5.00 / 0) (#132)
    by Salo on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 05:31:50 PM EST
    and hit his with McCuster.

    Parent
    Vietnam is a painful subject (none / 0) (#143)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 08:53:47 PM EST
    for ALOT of folks who were unfortunate enough to involuntarily experience it. I'd tread very carefully and make certain that my criticism is about policy positions rather than carp over the fact that we lost Vietnam.

    You did fairly well in keeping your criticism on McCain and I understand why you are staking the position you are taking(attacking a perceived strength). That said, I would be careful to not go too far in attack or you may end up illiciting sympathy for McCain and his experience and you may end up racheting up the points he racks for patriotism.

    Anyways that's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;P


    Parent

    Vietnam is a painful subject to a lot of (none / 0) (#148)
    by Grace on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:08:58 AM EST
    people who are over 50.  Why?  So many lives were lost, often the older brothers/sisters of those who are younger.

    No one in my immediate family died in the Vietnam war, but many older brothers and sisters of people I went to high school with died.  It's really not a happy thing.  You can't even compare Iraq with Vietnam because of the Draft.  Plus, we lost over 50,000 people in Vietnam compared with 4,000 in Iraq.  (Some of the younger posters need to get a grip.)  

    The 50,000 that we lost in Vietnam in no way compared to our losses in WWI and WWII -- so, seriously, some of you really need to get a grip on your emotions.  Wars are events where people get killed.  Lots of them.  4,000 is more than we would like but it doesn't even compare to a World War.  (The US population is much higher now, so that 4,000 represents a much smaller percentage of the overall population.  Iraq is a minor war in the whole scheme of things.)    

    Parent

    One nitpick, well maybe two... (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by tree on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:09:28 AM EST
    First, if you family or friends have been hit by death it doesn't make it any less painful to know that only 4000 others are similarly grieving. Grief is grief and devastating in the singular. But I agree with you overall sentiment about the pain of Vietnam and how it is still much more widespread than the pain of the Iraq war in the US.

    Second, and more importantly, Iraq is a minor war in the scheme of things for the US, but a very major tragedy for the Iraqis. I think its important not to forget that, just as its important to remember that the Vietnam war was much more devastating for the Vietnamese than it was for us. Even in WWII the US came out relatively unscathed compared to Europe and much of Asia.

     

    Parent

    Great Point (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Truth Sayer on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:59:13 PM EST
    I agree. Sure people can write whatever they want but you are correct they are not helping those who they think they are helping.

    This silly meme going around the blogs that McCain getting shot down in an airplane does not qualify him to be president is counter productive. One thing getting shot down does show is that McCain has the brains and the balls to get up in one of those planes and get shot at. Something Obama cannot say.

    In the polls Obama has a problem with patriotism. The public on the other hand will always look at a person who has served as a patriot. And if you got shot or shot down or in McCain's case was a prisoner of war and refused to be released so you could stay with your men then that is big. And to belittle that is just not smart. Did we belittle Kerry's service and him taking some shrapnel? Did we say that Wes Clark's service was not a plus for him to be President? Did it hurt Jimmy Carter to get elected because he served in the navy?

    It's dumb memes like what is going around all over the Lefty blogs that help paint Lefties and their candidates as soft on national defense. My God over at OpenLeft today they are discussing whether returning soldiers deserve to be applauded on an airplane when the stewardess leads a small recognition of applause. Needless to say the consensus is no they don't deserve to be applauded. What can one say?

    Yeah keep spreading that meme. The Right was successful at taking Kerry who had real wartime service and swiftboating him. Now they will take a four year Senator who never served and obviously does not understand the inner workings of the military as McCain does, along with Obama's supporters who are denigrating McCain service and use that as a club against Obama. Smart. Spread that meme.

    So it was an outrage to take down Max Cleland who served with great sacrifice but it is not an outrage to take down McCain who also served with great sacrifice. I can see the logic in that.

    Parent

    Sheesh! Your post (none / 0) (#149)
    by Grace on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:19:06 AM EST
    kind of says it all.  They won't applaud people coming home now?  That's sick.  

    I was shocked when they took down Max Cleland -- and sickened by the whole thing.  It was disgusting.  I'd be equally upset if they tried to do the same thing with McCain.  

    Seriously, denegrating veterans is not a good idea.  

    Parent

    Cleland and the Kerry Swiftboating (none / 0) (#155)
    by daring grace on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:40:21 PM EST
    told me we are in a new era from the one I grew up in and thought was the way it would always be. Veterans were ALWAYS above reproach and were ALWAYS treated with respect, especially by pols.

    Now I'm living in this latest era when hawkish pols who never served get away with destroying the careers and assassinating the characters of vets like Cleland whose profound sacrifices are obvious...

    It's a brand of ugly I never saw coming.

    I find myself musing on the idea that in the 1960s when I was coming of age the WWII vets were assuming power and there were so many of them and their war was 'popular' and they 'won', compared with the last 20 years when it's the disputed and ambivalent legacy of Vietnam that shadows the discourse.

    Parent

    Fair enough (none / 0) (#37)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:15:18 PM EST
    But I am sure this is how he comes off.

    Parent
    Will His Military Experience/Image (none / 0) (#62)
    by daring grace on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:30:55 PM EST
    serve to help him beat the recession into submission?

    That's what most voters worry about at the moment.

    Parent

    Will obama's experience as a community (2.00 / 0) (#133)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 05:32:57 PM EST
    organizer help him correct the economy?  Or maybe it will be his being the prez of the harvard law review...

    C'mon now both sides have valid points and supposedly there is to be no bashing on here and now it looks like there cannot be any dissent if it goes against the golden boy.  McCain is not going to get the votes of most posters on here and I very sure people don't like getting called McCain supporters if they see that great big log in obama's eye.  So, as BTD and Jeralyn are always saying....keep it civil.

    Parent

    There is nothing in Obama's resume (5.00 / 0) (#150)
    by Grace on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:29:52 AM EST
    that shows he has EVER shown bravery IN ANY INSTANCE!  EVER!!  He's never come up against a rock hard wall and tried to beat it down!  All he's ever done is cave in to whoever opposed him.  That's his M.O.!!

    He's the kind of person who gives in!  

    It's ridiculous that people think they can hold his "feet to the fire" now.  Those little feet are going to MELT!  The guy is an ICE PRINCE!!  He's guaranteed to melt against any fire!  

    Obama is not a BRAVE Warrior!  Obama is a little ICE Prince.  

    Parent

    Grace....it is nice to know there are some (none / 0) (#153)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:12:32 AM EST
    people paying attention.

    Parent
    Huh? (none / 0) (#156)
    by daring grace on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:46:32 PM EST
    You don't see this as a legitimate question?

    Will McCain pushing his expertise at military and national security issues serve him with voters in an election where bread and butter economic concerns are front and center?

    How the heck is that incivility?

    BTW, I've never called anyone a McCain supporter or anything else for that matter.

    Parent

    So General Clark (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by TomP on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:58:18 PM EST
    was right, after all.  McCain wants it both ways.  

    McCain can't even win. . . (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:58:22 PM EST
    early bird Bingo.

    But why hasn't someone asked him "Senator McCain, what wars have you won?"

    At least two of us have (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:00:30 PM EST
    Well, we knew it was coming, didn't we? (5.00 / 0) (#5)
    by madamab on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:59:43 PM EST
    Big shocker.

    We'll have to see how Obama handles this one. So far, McCain is creaming him on National Security and Iraq according to Rasmussen.

    Your poll proves that the advantage isn't enough (none / 0) (#8)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:01:06 PM EST
    Because McCain isn't winning.

    Parent
    Mmmmmkay.... (5.00 / 0) (#10)
    by madamab on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:03:28 PM EST
    Obama isn't winning either. And I was talking about those two areas specifically.

    Parent
    In fact Obama is winning (none / 0) (#14)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:05:06 PM EST
    according to the polling outfit you cite yourself.

    Parent
    One point? (5.00 / 0) (#16)
    by madamab on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:07:04 PM EST
    That's not winning.

    Come on now.

    Parent

    And again.... (5.00 / 0) (#18)
    by madamab on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:07:42 PM EST
    I was talking about National Security and Iraq.

    Parent
    The polling you cite (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:09:52 PM EST
    is taken from data collected mostly when Obama was even further ahead.

    Sorry, but Obama is ahead. That could change, but it's the reality now. Polling in the significant states supports that claim.

    Parent

    It is so sad. . . (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:11:44 PM EST
    that you feel you have to apologize because the Democratic candidate appears to have a lead.

    Parent
    He's being respectful (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:14:00 PM EST
    not a door mat.  Don't mistake the two, and this is a resectful blog.

    Parent
    You're not parsing my language correctly (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:14:05 PM EST
    I am sorry that madamab is wrong, not that Obama is ahead.

    Parent
    On National Security and Iraq, (none / 0) (#52)
    by madamab on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:25:37 PM EST
    how am I wrong?

    Obama is currently on a European tour designed to bolster his foreign policy credentials here at home. Currently, voters trust McCain more than Obama on both national security issues in general (53% - 39%) and on Iraq in particular (49% - 37%).

    You are trying to make my argument something that it is not. I said that McCain is creaming Obama in National Security and Iraq.

    I am not wrong. Sorry.

    Parent

    Yes Obama is Currently Leading (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:12:19 PM EST
    The last time McCain led in a Rasmussen poll was April 13. Yes, I would consider that translating to Obama leading by Rasmussen standards.

    Parent
    Absolutely agree (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:03:57 PM EST
    John McCain is not an incompetent on foreign policy because he served in the military. But he is not competent because he did serve in the military.

    And as Wes Clark pointed out before Obama threw him under the bus, being in the military does not automatically make you qualified to command a military.


    Why is it BTD is doing a much better (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:04:26 PM EST
    job of responding to McCain than Obama is?

    BTD is Obama (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:08:58 PM EST
    Now there's a psy/ops!  Obama can say these things as BTD though and the press doesn't get to have its hayday yet the argument has been made :)

    Parent
    Has Obama responded yet? (none / 0) (#15)
    by madamab on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:06:20 PM EST
    Everything happens so fast on the Internets...

    Parent
    Tsk, tsk (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by DYBO on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:10:58 PM EST
    McCain has lost all hope of presenting himself as the best-qualified candidate, and has turned his campaign strategy to one of strictly bashing Obama.

    Not having military experience can be a plus as well as a minus.  There's no dishonor in not serving in the military, and with McCain's extensive military experience - he was totally wrong about Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and the proper strategy to counter terrorism.  

    The more McCain squawks about Obama, the more it shows his own insecurity and desperation.

    Score another one for Team Obama.

    This comment is a spankin (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:12:35 PM EST
    Well McCain (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by CST on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:35:02 PM EST
    According to your own logic, troops should've come home in 2003.

    May 22, 2003, John McCain:

    "We won a massive victory in a few weeks, and we did so with very limited loss of American and allied lives. We were able to end aggression with minimum overall loss of life, and we were even able to greatly reduce the civilian casualties of Afghani and Iraqi citizens."

    But I swear, McCain has been "steadfast" in his position.  As long as you don't remember anything before 2004

    In 2003... (none / 0) (#78)
    by pmj6 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:43:43 PM EST
    ...McCain was not the President. George W. Bush was. And, as I recall, even Obama said in 2004 there was little difference between him and Bush on Iraq.

    I don't see any reason to believe the historical pattern will not continue in this war. Democrats are still afraid of being painted soft on national security, and this makes it impossible for them to end wars. Obama's recent behavior (flag pin, FISA vote, etc.) shows he's in no position to change that pattern.

    Parent

    What is your point? (none / 0) (#83)
    by CST on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:50:24 PM EST
    McCain said troops should come home once a war is won, he also said in 2003 that the war was won.  What does that have to do with Bush?

    Also, McCain keeps saying he was critical of how Bush ran the war from the start.  When in fact, he was repeating Bush talking points to congress.


    Parent

    The Right's John Kerry (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by s5 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:40:50 PM EST
    He's really shaping up to be the right's John Kerry: the candidate who no one really liked, but they're stuck with him anyway. Running as a "war hero", even though his position on the war is exactly the opposite of the public mood (John Kerry was against the pro-war mood in 2004, while John McCain is against the anti-war mood in 2008).

    McCain's image might have some built-in trustworthiness, but by hitching himself to a war that most people now oppose, he squanders all that goodwill. Really a poor electoral strategy.

    Speaking of disparaging (none / 0) (#89)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:55:53 PM EST
    This implication that anyone who was ever in the military will robotically, unthinkingly, be insulted and immediately go into circle-the-wagons mode to support any other veterans endevors regardless of their actions, pretty much relegates veterans to the status of a primitive monkey band (or the ideal Republican voting bloc, whichever comes first.)

    Parent
    Speech, July 2, Colorado Springs (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by misspeach2008 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:20:39 PM EST
    "We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."


    What the he11? (3.50 / 2) (#110)
    by pie on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:24:55 PM EST
    What's the FBI?

    What's the National Guard?

    Police, state troopers, sheriffs?

    Civilian national security force?  Why?  

    He's going off in lots of weird directions.  What does he stand for?  What is he really going to do?

    Not good.

    Parent

    That was my initial response (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by RalphB on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 05:20:31 PM EST
    but then someone pointed out to me that he was calling for an expansion of AmerCorps and the Peace Corps.   The language is weird but what can you expect from Obama the naif.  Civilian Security Force, a total crock.

    Parent
    It does have the advantage (none / 0) (#131)
    by Alien Abductee on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 05:31:05 PM EST
    of letting people earn funding for college without having to go into the military to do it. Gee, wonder what that will do to the volunteer military and having sufficient forces on hand to be able to wage voluntary wars of aggression in future.

    Parent
    It'salways interesting (none / 0) (#136)
    by pie on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 06:37:27 PM EST
    to see the hope and change and spin.

    Parent
    It's always interesting (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Alien Abductee on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 06:49:02 PM EST
    to see nothing worth saying being said over and over again.

    Parent
    Yes, (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by pie on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 07:20:32 PM EST
    Sucks to be Obama.

    Parent
    hey (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by scourtney on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:44:39 PM EST
    I don't know what trolling is...

    i love this site but I have to seriously disagree with BTD on this one. Obama is an intellectual with NO PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE. It DOES matter, regardless of whatever derogatory sarcasm we want to lob at McCain for being shot down and a POW--his time in the military DOES matter to most Americans. This argument is a DISASTER for the Democrats.

    McCain's Military experience.. (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Turbulent Confusion on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:07:33 PM EST
    I am a 10 year army veteran, I was in three separate theaters, Panama, Iraq/Kuwait, and Bosnia.  I have never been a POW, and I will not suppose to understand what that is like.

    I do take exception to Sen. McCain's stance on this.  The lack of military experience doesn't seem to affect Obama's ability to make tough, well thought out decisions.  He has consistently supported the troops that are in harms way, while making it clear that he does not support the reason's we are in Iraq.

    The thought that McCain was an Officer in the US. Navy does not affect me in the way he hopes it will affect all ex-service and active service members. The Idea that he would keep our troops, some of which I have commanded and served with, in harms way to advance the Republican agenda is sickening.  It is apparent, and has been stated that OIL is the reason we have gone into Iraq.  Is this worth the price of a soldier's life?  I say no, it is not.

    The capacity of soldier is one of the highest honors that I have ever been able to be a part of.  I feel that every individual soldier's life is one to protect and to only be sent into harm's way if necessary to the survival of our society. McCain's want to war monger into places like Iraq, and his saber rattling towards Iran should be dealt with in a swift and resounding NO.  His home state should be readying for his replacement from Congress immediately, He has no place in the office of the President.    

    Look...if you count all the things that should (4.00 / 3) (#2)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:57:45 PM EST
    count vis-a-vis experience all the way around, obama is sadly lacking.  You can spin it anyway you like, but that is a fact.

    Meh (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:00:16 PM EST
    New policy from BTD yesterday. . . (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:03:17 PM EST
    (don't know whether it's still in effect) -- McCain supporters are requested to announce themselves.

    Parent
    Not to mention the NBC's (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:18:37 PM EST
    Even more interesting, it might not be bad policy for those that fall under the "Nobody But Clinton" category to identify themselves as NBC after their post..lol

    Parent
    I don't understand this place anymore. (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by madamab on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:35:10 PM EST
    FYI, sometimes it is useful to hear from people who disagree with your views respectfully.

    Who knows, you might learn something.

    Parent

    They are both too experienced.... (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:13:17 PM EST
    in the shady workings of government if you ask me.

    I'm dying to vote for an amatuer...any amatuer will do, as long as their soul has not yet been sold.

    Parent

    This day to day obsession... (3.00 / 2) (#53)
    by citizen53 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:26:16 PM EST
    with every minute detail as if it will be the determinant, shows the bankruptcy of the campaign on all levels.

    None of this matters for now.  Events that are in the future will determine the election, so far as I see.  What they are remains unknown.

    Al Gore, concerning his own view of politics, recently  said:

    "What politics has become requires a level of tolerance for triviality and artifice and nonsense that I have found in short supply."

    I could not agree more.

    It matters to political junkies (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:28:13 PM EST
    Now where did I put that syringe?

    Parent
    I am no less a junkie... (none / 0) (#66)
    by citizen53 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:32:08 PM EST
    yet there are so many better ways to promote discourse and be informed.

    That is why I raised the point.  Maybe one in a million will take heart in what is offered.

    All of this campaign stuff is the same noise from a broken record.

    Parent

    I don't feel that way though (none / 0) (#71)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:35:37 PM EST
    during times of war Americans tend to take military service into consideration.  Obama is going to have to deal with the fact that McCain was born on a military base and served during Vietnam and was a POW for 5 yrs.  It is a factor for many people.

    Parent
    especially those (5.00 / 3) (#93)
    by ccpup on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:02:51 PM EST
    who have been affected either directly (family and friends) or indirectly (communities and those we knew from school) by the death or injury of someone in the Iraq or Afghanistan war.

    Obama gives one the sense he HASN'T been affected and, therefore, is unable to commiserate like someone like McCain could.  Add to that his natural tendency to be aloof and -- as one voter said during the Primaries -- "above it all" and he may find it difficult to connect with voters on this issue.

    As for his vaunted anti-war stance, a reading of his votes since being elected to the Senate will show he's voted with McCain to continue funding the war more times than not.  I understand the political posturing of not wanting to be seen as abandoning the troops, but it's difficult to square his I'm-anti-war! position with his Aye, Aye, Ayes in the Senate to support the war he's allegedly against and ... oh, I've got a headache now.

    Obama needs to find his strength and run with it and not try to be a lil' McCain and get "his" voters before he's even solidified his own Base.  

    When almost 25% of your Party is still not in your column and the divisions keeping them from joining are deep, you've got a problem than no fancy new "O" plane and Civilian Security Forces (eek!) is gonna solve.

    Parent

    Very well said (none / 0) (#96)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:07:13 PM EST
    I did not say it wasn't a factor... (none / 0) (#86)
    by citizen53 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:51:53 PM EST
    but how many times does it have to be repeated?

    Do you really think this claim by McCain is new?

    Parent

    Considering that it is happening (none / 0) (#90)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:59:04 PM EST
    during Obama's war zone tour.....yes, this is the first time this has happened.

    Parent
    You mean like this... (none / 0) (#104)
    by citizen53 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:15:30 PM EST
    from March 31, 2008:

    McCain: Obama Has No Experience in National Security, Warfare

    Obama, he said, "displays a fundamental misunderstanding of history and how we've maintained national security, and what we need to do in the future to maintain our security in the face of the transcendent challenge of radical Islamic extremism. And I understand that because he has no experience or background in any of it."

    Just because Obama is in the war zone and reported by the media does not mean the blogs have to jump all over it like every other hiccup.

    As I said, what McCain said today is not really news in my opinion.  

    Parent

    I guess you answered it yourself (2.00 / 0) (#129)
    by Salo on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 05:23:10 PM EST
    look what the chicken george got us into because he wanted to  look tough.  Obam,a's promising to escalate teh war in Afghanistan (spill over into Pakistan very likely)

    Not that i'd prefer the concentration to be on single payer HC or anything of course...


    Plain old politics (none / 0) (#12)
    by OrangeFur on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:04:12 PM EST
    When you're running for office, you say that whatever you've done is important. What did being on a Swift Boat have to do with being president? Not much, really, but Kerry made a big deal out of it, and I personally thought there was nothing wrong with it. So McCain was in the Navy--of course he's going to make a big deal out of it.

    We can point out that it's kind of a silly argument, but it's not something I'm got to get too exercised over.

    Please don't go here (none / 0) (#25)
    by dianem on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:11:42 PM EST
    "John McCain has never won a war". Perhaps you weren't referring to Vietnam, but it certainly came to mind when I read that. We really don't need to go there. Any discussion of not winning in Vietnam is going to backfire big time.

    Excuse me? (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:14:46 PM EST
    First of all, we did not win the war in Vietnam.

    Second of all, I will go whgerever I dman well please.

    Your coment is not appreciated at all.

    Get over your love for McCain., I personally am getting heartily sick of so called Democrats deciding that they loive John McCain.

    The anti-cult that some of you have formed is as mindless as the Obama cult is.

    Parent

    Indeed (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:15:52 PM EST
    The Big Tent speaks! (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by DYBO on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:20:20 PM EST
    I personally am getting heartily sick of so called Democrats deciding that they love John McCain.

    Well said.

    Parent

    Oh great! (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by tree on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:51:34 PM EST
    Now we've got the BTD cult! ;-)

    Parent
    Oh, we've always had one of those (none / 0) (#97)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:08:50 PM EST
    That's what my forehead, BTD.

    Parent
    oops, that's what's on my forehead (none / 0) (#99)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:09:27 PM EST
    I asked politely (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by dianem on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:47:19 PM EST
    That's what "Please" stands for. I don't love McCain at all, and I don't know what I could have said that gives you that idea. I admire his military service and the fact that he survived something that many would not.  That does not equate to "love".  I do not agree with his politics and find many aspects of his personality personally offensive. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else. I'm not a member of any "anti-Cult" that I'm aware of. I don't like Obama, but if I'm "anti" anything it is the way Axelrod has run this campaign. If you want evidence, look at my posting history. I have spent very little time being critical of Obama and none praising McCain's politics. I am more interested in the Democratic Party in general and how the campaign is being run.

    Parent
    It Is Quite Appropriate (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:32:00 PM EST
    McSame is running on his lackluster career as a Military man, whose experience was in a very unpopular war.  McSame is proposing the same losing strategy that he argued about Vietnam: Stay the course longer.. longer... a little longer and we will surely win. Stupid then and even stupider now due to hindsight.

    That somehow makes him more qualified than Obama to be CIC?

    An apt analogy would be a bank teller that was kidnapped during a robbery, eventually released and now complains that someone with no teller experience is CEO of the bank.

    Hey he still is a hero, no one can take that away from him, but CIC, no way. Obama seems a far better choice.

    Parent

    I didn't say that (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by dianem on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:03:06 PM EST
    I just said that talking negatively about Vietnam is not going to score points for Obama. It's only going to bring up painful memories and convince voters that Obama's supporter's are living in the past and are the same kind of people who (metaphorically, not literally) "spit" on Vietnam veteran's. Vietnam was a long time ago. I think that Clark said it best, and he never once said anything negative about Vietnam. He set a positive tone for the discussion of whether McCain's military service qualifies him to be "Commander in Chief", and Dems would be wise to follow this lead. McCain has more military experience than Obama and this enables him to understand a lot about the military the Obama can't. Whether this qualifies him to be President in spite of other issues is a matter that can be debated. His experience itself is not up for debate - it is indisputable.

    Parent
    BS (none / 0) (#106)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:19:29 PM EST
    McCain has more military experience than Obama and this enables him to understand a lot about the military the Obama can't.

    That is nonsense. It does not take a being a soldier to understand something about being CIC. It speaks nothing about it.

    His experience itself is not up for debate - it is indisputable.

    But what does that have to do with being either POTUS or CIC?

    Zero zip nada. As I pointed out the experience of being a teller does not make someone a better CEO of a bank any more than being a father of five. Both are experience but equally irrelevant to the job of CEO. In fact being the father of five may be more relevant.


    Parent

    I didn't say anything about CIC (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by dianem on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:39:55 PM EST
    Even your quote doesn't say that. I said that McCain understands the military more than Obama. He does. You can never really learn as much on the outside as on the inside, and there is no evidence that Obama has tried to learn either way. I didn't say that makes McCain more qualified to be CIC. You're the one assuming that since I said one I must mean the other. "McCain has no relevant military experience" is not going to be a winning slogan. "Mccain's experience does not qualify him to be President because he has shown that he didn't learn from it by supporting Iraq" may be.

    Parent
    He Knows How To Fly A Plane (none / 0) (#134)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 05:42:52 PM EST
    The Military is a big word. McCain knows what he has learned from that experience. It has nothing to do with being POTUS or CIC. That is the only relevant content that is germane, imo. The rest is anecdotal and irrelevant to the discussion.

    McSame is claiming that he will be better as POTUS and CIC because he has military experience and Obama does not. That is nonsense and doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

    Parent

    I think the combo of (none / 0) (#135)
    by Salo on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 06:05:11 PM EST
    a decade +, in the military and a decade or two in the senate indicate a lifetime of service to the US.  And that he also comes from a Naval Family that goes back to ww1 at least...which he fought in a  rating.

    Parent
    I don't even know how to read a poll (none / 0) (#54)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:26:40 PM EST
    like you and BTD but I've voted for President enough to remember that it comes down who wins what state.  I hate it when they put up national or mixed numbers.....not a decent indicator at all.

    McCain's military experience... (none / 0) (#61)
    by pmj6 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:30:25 PM EST
    ...by itself does not qualify him to be Commander in Chief. No disagreement there.

    However, having had that experience gives him the moral authority to do politically controversial things. In other words, the military establishment respects him. This means he will be able to bend the Pentagon to his will more easily than Obama, who lacks said experience and likely will enjoy about as much respect as Bill Clinton did.

    This was one of Bill Clinton's greatest failings as president: due to his Vietnam War-era shenanigans and general absence of military service, he was not able to get the DOD (or the intel community, for that matter) to transition out of the Cold War-era posture. So instead of burning up precious political capital on these battles, he basically left the Pentagon alone and, in effect, adrift.

    So, sure, maybe McCain's experience does not translate into competence (after all, Bill Clinton proved very competent on national security issues). But that sort of experience is not meaningless either. The credibility and respect McCain's military service garners him makes him much more likely than Obama to do politically risky things like...withdrawing from Iraq. Let's not forget, it was Eisenhower who ended the Korean War, it was Nixon who ended the Vietnam War, and it will be a Republican who will end the war in Iraq. It will not be someone who is terrified of a New Yorker magazine cover.

    Not quite (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:43:09 PM EST
    This was one of Bill Clinton's greatest failings as president: due to his Vietnam War-era shenanigans and general absence of military service, he was not able to get the DOD (or the intel community, for that matter) to transition out of the Cold War-era posture.

    Ronald Reagan seemed to do ok without any meaningful military experience.  

    Bill Clinton screwed up because he didn't understand that the military mind and when he went after them on gays in the military right out of the gate, he alienated just about all of them.

    Parent

    I agree with you about this (none / 0) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:55:35 PM EST
    I became an Army wife during the Clinton Administration.  I asked many times why he was so at best luke warmly embraced and it seemed to be mostly because he did not understand the military and seemingly had little respect for them.

    Parent
    Little respect for them? (none / 0) (#103)
    by pie on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:15:06 PM EST
    Who's had as little respect for the military as George W. Bush?

    What did Kerry's military experience do for him, btw?

    Hopefully, people have seen the error of their opinions.

    Parent

    I wasn't talking about Bush, I was talking about (none / 0) (#108)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:22:47 PM EST
    Clinton and Bush happened AFTER Clinton.  The military in general has a great deal of respect for Hillary Clinton by the way at this time.  As far as Kerry's military experience, he was a different sort of soldier who questioned his service, tossed his medals....not a bad thing - but a very different thing that placed him in a different sort of tough warrior light.  Not necessarily the best light either so soon after 9/11.

    Parent
    Sad. (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by pie on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:31:00 PM EST
    not a bad thing - but a very different thing that placed him in a different sort of tough warrior light.  Not necessarily the best light either so soon after 9/11.

    Bush was considered a tough warrior.  An AWOL embarrassment, he put others' lives on the line by acting the part of a tough guy.  I guess some people fell for it though.

    He's a cowardly fraud who never suffered at all for his decisions.  He couldn't care less about the people over there who are being screwed every which way to Sunday.  It's disgusting.

    Why anyone in the military backed him once the truth about WMD's was exposed is beyond me.

    Glad to hear about Hillary though.

    Parent

    Because obeying your command (none / 0) (#117)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:37:53 PM EST
    is deeply ingrained.  When in a war zone you can't question your command ever and having a command that needs questioning really throws soldiers and the military mind off.  It creates chaos and fear, and in fear we all cling to what we know best and soldiers know to obey their command.  And when in doubt you should also obey your command :)  It is the broken record playing in a soldier's head that makes a military able to fight an enemy in coordinated unison possible.  When something is wrong at the head of the beast though the tail of the beast will be FUBAR.  Hillary has been to the war zone many times.  Looks soldiers in the eye unflinchingly and she seems to be able to connect with them on some base level that Bill even now can't seem to get to.  She is sort of warrior herself though.

    Parent
    She sure is. (none / 0) (#121)
    by pie on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:42:51 PM EST
    She is sort of warrior herself though.

    She has shown me what she's made of, and despite the fact that she's not the nominee, I am so proud of her and her accomplishments.

    Now if only Obama could demonstrate the same leadership and the same fighting spirit...


    Parent

    Oh, good grief! (none / 0) (#102)
    by pie on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:13:17 PM EST
    Reagan was a republican, for crying out loud, and played to the mom and apple pie crowd.  He had his own rock star status as a former movie actor.

    Bill Clinton was trying to advance the cause of gays, and Sam Nunn put a damper on it.  The policy became something less acceptable, unfotunately.

    But at least Clinton brought the issue out into the open.  That was then; this is now.  And attitudes have definitely changed.  A good thing.

    Didn't understand the military mind.  What a ridiculous comment.

    Parent

    Look, Clinton didn't understand the military (none / 0) (#113)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:29:11 PM EST
    I'm sorry if that chaps you. And standing up for gay rights.......I think Clinton is a hero for doing it and so do many people.  He brought about change within the military that was greatly needed.  Because soldiers have gone to war with gay soldiers now and fought and bled with them sometimes knowingly that has brought about even more change.  Then you throw our soldiers in with the Brits who don't care if someone is gay or straight at all and they fight together side by side....that is even more change.  Understand though that when Clinton stood up to that old rusted out military brass on the gay thing, he was pretty hated from the top down......as everything goes in military.  And it stays that way until they get over it.  When you are the President they usually don't get over it during your Presidency.

    Parent
    Clinton didn't (none / 0) (#115)
    by pie on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:33:40 PM EST
    understand the military?

    He didn't wage illegal wars.

    If that's not understanding the military, that's just fine.

     

    Parent

    I heard so much (none / 0) (#119)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:41:52 PM EST
    complaining about Bosnia and going to Bosnia and how Clinton was such a loser sending them to fight another country's battles.  They just didn't like him at all.  It has been interesting observing all this, and I also tend to remind people who despise the Iraq debacle how much they complained about 6 months in Bosnia and winning hands down while ending a genocide :)

    Parent
    Without the loss (none / 0) (#123)
    by pie on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:43:55 PM EST
    of a single American life?  Is that right?

    Parent
    learned lessons (none / 0) (#130)
    by Salo on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 05:27:22 PM EST
    my guess is that many of the compainees are now dreaming of a billet in Bosnia.

    Parent
    Heh. (none / 0) (#116)
    by pie on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:37:20 PM EST
    And it stays that way until they get over it.  When you are the President they usually don't get over it during your Presidency.

    I can think of a lot of military leadership people that have been forced out or resigned during Bush's term that must long for a Clinton presidency.

    Maybe that's another reason they look at Hillary differently.

    Some people learn the hard way, but it's better than not learning the lesson at all.


    Parent

    Yup (none / 0) (#120)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:42:18 PM EST
    My comment (none / 0) (#124)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:48:22 PM EST
    passed no judgment.  It was an observation.

    Parent
    An observation (none / 0) (#126)
    by pie on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 05:03:41 PM EST
    that no longer has much to do with reality...

    which is unfortunate for the military.

    Parent

    Pres. Clinton put Gen. Clark to work---- (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by wurman on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:56:26 PM EST
    ----some teeth on the cogs aren't working for the history channel here.  The Dayton Accords, the Balkans, Kosovo, Jugoslavia, Serbia--I'm sure that W. J. Clinton was prez.

    Rummy & pals invaded & occupied Afghanistan with Bill Clinton's armed forces; then they pivoted to Iraq using the same GIs.  Bu$hInc hadn't been in office long enough to change the letterheads & the signature chop on the orders.

    Yeah, that Bill Clinton.

    Gen. Clark won a war without losing a trooper to combat--some car wrecks, accidents, & plane crashes.

    Ya' wanna' win a war?  Call the Big Dog & ask him who to put in charge.

    Prior military service is no indicator of executive skill--particularly not presidential executive skills.  Eisenhower, Kennedy, L. Johnson, Nixon, & Ford presided, sequentally, over the Vietnam wretchedness & every one of them served in the Armed Forces.  Let's get real here.

    Parent

    Good grief (none / 0) (#122)
    by Alien Abductee on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:43:49 PM EST
    Sounds like we should just hand the country over to the military then. Talk about wagging the dog.

    Parent
    It takes a hawk to end a war (none / 0) (#151)
    by laurie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:42:33 AM EST
    That's what I remember from my history classes.
    A dove will be trampled all over by the interests involved.
    Someone whom the military respects will always have it easier-both with them and with the press.

    Parent
    Stil waiting for a response. . . (none / 0) (#72)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:35:39 PM EST
    to my "point of order" request.  No snarky one-liners?  What would be left of the blogosphere.

    Getting perilously close to the comment (none / 0) (#73)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:38:35 PM EST
    police at DK.

    Parent
    It would seem (none / 0) (#74)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:40:36 PM EST
    That John McCain has decided to use the John Kerry campaign strategy of parading around his actions in a war that occurred 40 years ago.  

    "Vote for me!  40 years ago I did something that was relevant!"

    well it was a bit more traumatic. (none / 0) (#128)
    by Salo on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 05:21:26 PM EST
    and what else is he going to run on anyway?

    his non-bio?

    Parent

    Perhaps I'm wrong (none / 0) (#87)
    by NJDem on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:53:03 PM EST
    but I think the public views JM's experience as a POW as absolute proof of his love of country and not that it necessarily prepared him to be CiC.  

    I think it's safe to say (unfortunately) that Obama has a patriotism-perception issue with many in the public--and that is why JM's military status is (potentially) so damaging.  
     

    Nobody ever accused BTD... (none / 0) (#100)
    by dianem on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:09:51 PM EST
    ...of being humble. ;-) I haven't heard about this Civilian Security Force. Do you have a link?

    Here you go (none / 0) (#111)
    by misspeach2008 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:28:00 PM EST
    Qualified (none / 0) (#138)
    by santarita on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 07:08:51 PM EST
    I can't help but think that the argument over whether military service or other experience qualifies one for President is a wrong-headed way of looking at the two candidates.  They are both qualified by virtue of their age, citizenship, mental competence and the fact that their respective parties nominated them.

    McCain's military experience and Obama's lack of military experience are both worthy of consideration when one looks at who would be a better President.  And it would be silly to think that the military experience will not weigh heavily in McCain's favor.  But Obama needs to keep pointing out that with all of McCain's experience he still made wrong choices in his  20 years in Congress. McCain's weakness is his record of support for arguably the worst President ever.  

    We cannot permit military service to be required experience for a President because then we really do start looking like a banana republic.  

    That carrot (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by pie on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 07:29:32 PM EST
    We cannot permit military service to be required experience for a President because then we really do start looking like a banana republic.

    has been out there because the republicans made it one.  Then we had the a$$hole who was AWOL. The republicans conveniently forgot that, because of tax cuts, etc.

    The economy is in shatters.  Foreclosures, bank failures, Wall Street without oversight.

    Iraq is, to put it lightly, a disaster.  Also without oversight.

    I'm just not getting the vibe from Obama.  

    Parent

    Foreign Policy and National Security Has To Be... (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by santarita on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:36:09 PM EST
    More than reliance on a strong military.  McCain's harping about lack of military experience misses the point that the military is only a tool and not an end in itself.  That the Republicans have been able to frame the discussion of foreign policy and national security in terms of a strong military is an indication that the Dems themselves have bought into that concept as well.

    It's time for a change.

    Parent

    The Taliban and AQ are not the same (none / 0) (#141)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 07:29:38 PM EST
    Nor are they necessarily allies.  The notion Afghanistan is the good war, and that it deserves more military attention, is folly.  We are merely making life impossible for villagers in the distant provinces, forcing them to simply choose by whom to be killed.  Afghanistan is where superpowers go to die, and we are reaping what we have sown there -- we can almost claim credit for starting the Taliban, having funded their origins to battle the evil Soviets.  And now, essentially, we are the Soviets.  The argument that we're going to get out of Iraq so we can more fully get into Afghanistan hardly strikes me as progress, or even sane.  It's trading one occupation for another, in a nation with even less history of stability and more tribal fracturs.  Now that's a good plan, eh?

    Why killing the Taliban is not the answer.

    LOLFOMCROLTFLOL (none / 0) (#144)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 09:21:12 PM EST
    Afghanistan is where superpowers go to die..

    Good one.

    Parent

    Foreign Policy "Expert"... (none / 0) (#142)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 08:31:51 PM EST
    ...John McCain on Afganistan:

    "We have a lot of work to do. It's a very hard struggle, particularly given the situation on the Iraq-Pakistan border."

    I guess he didn't have anyone around to whisper in his ear that Iraq and Pakistan do not share a border.  Or that Iraq is not Afganistan.