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An Ethos

Nihilists! F##k me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

-Walter Sobchak

At corrente, I wrote a guest post on developing a blogosphere ethos. I won't repeat it here, but I want to put a question to supporters of the Clinton/Edwards vision of a mandate for universal health care. Suppose for a moment that Barack Obama changed his position (aka flip flopped) on the issue and embraced mandates. Would you consider that a good thing?

A corollary to the question, what if he changed his position due to political pressure as opposed to a good faith change of mind - would that make a difference? To understand why I ask these questions, read my post at corrente.

Speaking for me only

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    I want him to change because of (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:22:39 PM EST
    political pressure---as long as it is from the left.
    It would be nice if he agreed with the principles, but that doesn't matter to me.
    Name an issue where his position has shifted to the left in the last two years. Can you?

    Roberts And Faith Based Initiatives (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:27:04 PM EST
    Shifts to the left? (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:30:36 PM EST
    You mean the last minute vote against Roberts?  That wasn't a shift to left; that was calculated politicking that had nothing to do with principle.

    And how is expanding FBI a shift to the left?

    Parent

    It Counts AFIAC (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:38:38 PM EST
    More of that please.

    Parent
    BTD gets his answer (none / 0) (#71)
    by mbuchel on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:05:37 AM EST
    Obama can do no right (or left).

    Parent
    I'm not aware how he's shifted left on the 2nd (none / 0) (#3)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:28:28 PM EST
    but I'll grant you the first.

    Parent
    Also Gay Marriage Ban (none / 0) (#14)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:37:35 PM EST
    But I do not really think he has shifted, he was always for gay rights (civil unions), and supports states decisions for gay marriage. Against DOMA but not for a federal gay marriage act.

    As far as faith based initiatives his position was, like most issues, exactly in line with Hillary. He recently shifted to the left in standing up against religious discrimination by faith based initiative beneficiaries of federal funds.


    Parent

    AFAIK (none / 0) (#34)
    by americanincanada on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:08:51 PM EST
    Hillary's position on FBI was slightly different than Obama's. I don't recall her ever saying that she was in favor or supported giving federal money.

    If you have a link showing her position the exact same as Obama's I would really appreciate a link.

    Obama's position on gay rights is also not a tack left...as a lesbian the very thought of that is insulting.

    Parent

    Um (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:28:41 PM EST
    Fair?? Who's the eff-ing nihilists around here, you bunch of crybabies?

    Sorry, I can't think of any.


    Parent

    My view is the a public example (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:31:00 PM EST
    where he moves to the left because of pressure from the left shows the power of the left. It's almost tautological, but not quite!
    Why do we know the fundamentalists have power? Because the Republicans cave to them. Without a record of caving to demands from the left, how can the left have any power over Obama?

    Parent
    I think you've hit on an important point... (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:35:07 PM EST
    ...Democratic politicians will pander to the left, but they cave to the right.

    Parent
    Well-said! (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by kempis on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:04:37 PM EST
    Maria Garcia: ...Democratic politicians will pander to the left, but they cave to the right.

    And I like what BTD is getting at: principles matter. Ideals matter, They have to matter most of all, really. Maybe this year more than ever.

    Sure, getting elected is important, but governing well and according to fundamental principles is most important of all. People who argue that Obama has to say a bunch of stuff he doesn't believe in order to get elected are deluding themselves into thinking he'll pull a great bait-and-switch and become a principled leader once he takes the oath of office. They don't consider that the race for the '12 election begins the moment this one is over. Then Obama will still be sticking his finger in the air to test the winds. All politicians do.

    But here's a problem: Obama has only been in national politics for four years and in the IL state senate for a few years before that. Therefore we only have four years of national context for Obama, and overall not a long political career to get a sense of what his core principles are. This lack of familiarity has created a blank screen that invited people to project their own ideals onto Obama, as he himself acknowledges.

    And that worked beautifully in the primaries. Progressives thought he was a progressive; centrists thought he was a centrist; evangelicals thought he was an evangelical. But  governing means taking positions. Those ideals start to get crowded out with decisions that may actually contradict them. And then we don't have enough history of that candidate to draw from, to say, "oh, OK, I see he's caving on this but I know he won't on health care."  The truth is, we can't with any assurance say there is ANYTHING he won't cave on for political expedience because we just don't know him that well. And in the past couple of weeks, he's been shifty on a few occasions.

    This is the problem. That blank screen has a serious drawback. As it begins to get filled in with positions that run counter to what supporters  expected with their projections, inevitably some will be disappointed, even shocked. And there's no history of stands Obama has taken to draw context and solace from. So we're left wondering: Jeez, what ARE non-negotiable principles for him?

    We don't know.

    Take a candidate who's a question mark and add the comments by Dean and Brazile and Axelrod others about the rebranding of the Democratic party, and it seems to me that it is prudent to be very, very cautious before voting for Obama. I am still inclined to do so solely because I do not want the GOP to maintain control of the executive branch. But principles matter most. If Obama is not going to take this opportunity to be a principled leader, like RFK, I want to make darned sure I know what he stands for before I vote for him. If he only stands for getting elected, then I cannot  vote for him.

    (Sorry for the long post.)

    Parent

    Principles? (none / 0) (#22)
    by talex on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:43:12 PM EST
    Obama has steadily been showing he has no princiles so forget that. Pressure from the Left sound good though. Of course that wouldn't happen either because he doesn't even ask the Left for our feedback.

    Now what was the question again? Oh yeah - mandates! Ha ha ha.

    I guess I shouldn't laugh because seeing how bad he trashed Clinton for mandates it would not surprise me if his advisers deemed it politically expedient to adopt them he would do so without even blinking as if he never trashed them before.

    Then of course if the press called him on his flip-flop he would say his trashing of them was 'inartful'.

    Parent

    The ideal plan would be single payer (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by vastleft on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:28:31 PM EST
    Hillary wanted and wants this but acknowledges that mandates may be as far as the prevailing political will will take us.

    Mandates are tricky, and for it to go well, the safety net -- especially for the working poor and the lower middle class -- will need to be well thought-out.  If Obama goes kicking and screaming into a full-coverage mandate plan, I would worry that he wouldn't be careful about such details.

    He's got a long way to go before he earns my trust on policy, that's for sure. If he goes all in on socialized medicine (which he off-handedly dissed in his book), that would impress me, though. If he did it because of pressure from the base, that would be arguably as good as if he did it because he believed in it. The weakness of his beliefs and of the true progressive base's influence with him are both enormous problems, and solving either one would be huge.

    A mildly good thing (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:30:23 PM EST
    but no more than that because I don't believe he's committed to it and he could easily flip-flop back again and/or simply not fight for it.  (See filibustering telco immunity, campaign finance and possibly now even Iraq.)

    As to whether the motivation matters-- it does to a certain extent because it speaks to trust.

    You're of course totally right we should focus on issues more than pols, but you can't take pols out of the equation.  You're fond of saying "Pols are pols," and I can't argue with that, but some are moreso than others.

    Before I vote, I want to have some sense of what the bedrock principles are that a pol will fight for and be willing to risk major political capital for.

    I can live with compromise or even changing of mind, but what I won't live with is pretense.  Tell me you've changed your mind and why, and I'll think about it.  Try to hoodwink me by pretending you haven't done a 180 and I'm done.

    Exactly (none / 0) (#35)
    by talex on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:12:04 PM EST
    "but you can't take pols out of the equation".

    That's impossible to do - to separate the two. The two are eternally entwined, they are not vinegar and water.

    As I've said before, Pols vote on the issues so naturally you can't affect the issue itself without considering the Pol as much or probably more so!

    Why more so? Because each Pol represent multiple votes on every issue that is to be voted on. That is a no brainer. Which makes the argument that we should focus on Issues not Pols kind of silly IMO.

    But I think I understand the psychology in trying to get people to focus on issues and not Pols. You see Obama is a Pol and a lot of people will not vote for him. But if people only focused on Issues and not the Pol (Obama) then they might vote for him. At least that seems to be the theory. That is liken to a Three Card Monty play of sorts.

    Just remember Issues=Pols, Pol=Issues. The two are inseparable via the all important vote...

    And you can toss in 'Trust' and 'Track Record' just for extra measure in addition to the vote.

    No one can ever explain to anyone how you separate a Pol from an Issue or an Issue from a Pol.

    Parent

    If he adopted a Clinton/Edwards type... (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:33:26 PM EST
    ...health care I would be pleased. But I would be even more pleased if he worked really hard to make sure it became law. And frankly, I think he would have to be pressured into doing it because I don't think that he actually believes in the mandates.

    I am not sure (1.00 / 0) (#63)
    by Jeannie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:51:24 PM EST
    he actually believes in anything. Except his ego and his quest for power.

    Parent
    Amen (none / 0) (#65)
    by americanincanada on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:00:10 PM EST
    Could not have said it better.

    Parent
    Health care is my issue (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by echinopsia on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:33:55 PM EST
    It's the one I care about most. (There are others)

    It's the reason I want Hillary to be president, because she's been working on it for her entire career. It's her issue, too.

    So I don't care HOW or WHY Obama changes his mind on it - if he decides that universal health care with mandates is the right way to go, that's great. If I though he was sincere (that's a big if) I'd be thrilled. If he actually followed through on it, I'd be a fan and take back some of the bad but perfectly true things I've said about him. I'd even vote for him.

    What a nice daydream ... if only.

    But it's never gonna happen. He won't change, he wouldn't be sincere, and he won't follow through.

    I'm with you. If he adopted her HC position (none / 0) (#17)
    by Teresa on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:39:06 PM EST
    and meant it, I don't care if it's because he believes in it or not, it would make voting for him much more likely. I'd still be mad at his campaign and the media but this issue means a lot to me.

    Parent
    From what I've heard (none / 0) (#50)
    by shoephone on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:59:39 PM EST
    the plan is to have a Democratic Congress devise a universal health care plan that he will have to sign.

    Parent
    Gosh, too bad it's too much to ask (none / 0) (#67)
    by echinopsia on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:10:23 PM EST
    that HE would actually take the initiative on something that is such a core Democratic issue.

    Without his unwavering and dedicated support, it's not going to happen. And that's not what he's offering.

    Who knows, maybe he'd veto a Congressional plan if it included mandates. We just don't know.

    So why do we need a Dem president and a Dem Congress if it's not going to happen, again?

    Parent

    I like your Corrente post (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:40:21 PM EST
    I even agree with it.

    Cool (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:41:30 PM EST
    Lambert asked me to do it.

    Parent
    Jeralyn, o/t but something you (none / 0) (#29)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:51:25 PM EST
    may want to know about re a senior women's group blogger, Jo Freeman, denied Denver convention credentials will be coming your way from me -- I have her permission and plea for help -- whenever we get an open thread again.  

    Jo has covered every convention, has gotten credentials, for decades.  Do you know her work on conventions -- and on the modern women's movement, from an insider?  Good reading.

    Parent

    I'd like him better as a person (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Burned on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:45:00 PM EST
    and trust him more as a politician if his own pressing moral conscience took him there instead of a price he paid to get elected.

    But I would appreciate it mightily however it came to be.

    Mandates, yes but too much flipping (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by catfish on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:47:28 PM EST
    He was adamant about mandates in the primary, and was a reason many Obama bloggers chose him over Clinton.

    He is giving me motion sickness.

    on the important issues that (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by thereyougo on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:01:55 PM EST
    matter to me personally are health care,
    Iraq withdrawal(sooner than later) and to a larger degree the SCOTUS nominees. The presidency is the vessel to effectuate it. I don't care if Obama  flip flops,summersaults,jumpstarts to get it done.

    At this point, I don't consider him principled enough that he won't sell himself or say anything that stands in the way of getting himself elected.

    I realize saying so is not saying much anything because I don't trust he will keep his promises on important issues that matter to me and subject to change without notice.

    But Hell, the US funds war and destruction so howabout funding life through healthcare? so, yeah I'd like a mandate for Hillary's plan for healthcare. If we have to cut the Pentagon budge by 3-5%, so be it.


    I think we deserve (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by chezmadame on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:06:20 PM EST
    a candidate who stands on principles that are grounded in belief, reason, and information. Such a candidate could change positions without it necessarily being expediency, pandering, or caving into pressure.

    Obama appalls me because his positions are grounded in nothing except what's best for him at this moment. He has never fought hard for anything and has never stuck his neck out for any cause. He's right when he refers to himself as a blank screen upon which people project all manner of hope. He is the ultimate empty suit.

    I don't want a candidate who's so practiced at "nuance" that he can shift here, there, and everywhere, yet still claim that he represents the people who gave him a mandate, rather than the demographic that he happens to need this week.

    If he changed his position on healthcare, it would only be to advance his candidacy. I wouldn't believe him for a minute.


    Mandates and a non insurance option (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:13:21 PM EST
    that could lead to single payer would definitely provide me with a reason to vote for Obama if it became an ongoing and consistent theme of his campaign. IOW if he quietly mentioned that he was considering adopting Hillary's or Edwards' plan to a group of Hillary supporters and left his normal wiggle room and that was it, I probably would not believe him. If OTOH, he made the change and addressed it as often and publicly as possible, then it would become part of his mandate as president. It would have weight and possibility.

    Well, I've never been able to register (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:13:29 PM EST
    at Corrente, but I endorse your post there.

    Honestly, I don't know what to do about Obama running scared and running to the right, but I know that our primary, the point when these issues are supposed to be hammered out, did not serve its purpose. The OFB cultists drowned everyone else out, especially on blogosphere 1.0.

    I am especially unhappy with the cultists these days.

    That seems to be a common problem (none / 0) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:16:16 PM EST
    Apparently Lambert has to personally authorize your account.

    I have no idea though.

    He might see your comment here though.

    Parent

    I tried first months ago (none / 0) (#40)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:18:36 PM EST
    and sent various inquiries. But it's their site, so. . .

    Parent
    Same here, Andgarden (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:37:19 PM EST
    It's been now I think more than two months, and three or four widely spaced follow-up emails both through the Contact page form and directly.

    Nada.  Not even an acknowledgement or an automatic response.


    Parent

    Same here (none / 0) (#75)
    by splashy on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 05:58:37 PM EST
    I occasionally try to sign in, and get the same not allowed message. (sigh)

    Parent
    If Obama (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:24:50 PM EST
    simply flip flopped on this issue it wouldn't mean one thing other than he needs votes from people who see this as an issue. The problem is that if he changed due to political pressure during an election, I don't trust that he would follow through once the voting was done. What did he say he would do once in the senate and has he done it?

    Core Values Shouldn't Change (5.00 / 4) (#48)
    by santarita on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:59:33 PM EST
    Strategies and tactics for achieving them may change.  

     It is naive to believe solely in  what politicians  say or what you think they say during a campaign. So you look to their record (and I don't mean just legislative or governmental experience) to see what their record shows about their core values.  And you look to who they surround themselves with as advisors.

    The progressive blogs, in general, just accepted the words and dismissed what should have been alarm bells.

    BTD, I liked your guest diary and the comments.  I think the professional blogs should develop standards for substance but also for process.  By process I mean some way of directing the diaries and comments into the kind of logical and civil discourse that advances the discussion of any issue or candidate.

    Drive a hard bargain with commercial insurers (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by bluejane on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:25:50 PM EST
    Suppose for a moment that Barack Obama changed his position (aka flip flopped) on the issue and embraced mandates. Would you consider that a good thing?

    Actually "universal" is the magic word Obama has not embraced yet, not "mandate" which he wants for children. I like the concept of "universal," of course, but universal non-commercial (not commercial) policies. I don't see being forced buy a corporate health insurance policy without strong consumer protections; cost controls to make premiums, deductibles and co-pays affordable; guaranteed benefit quality; no dropped policies; and all sorts of "policing" of the corporate insurance industry which is nearly impossible.

    Here's a point that could save the situation I just described and I don't see raised much.  A universal mandate to require everyone in America to buy commercial insurance policies would allow  insurance companies to reap an enormous windfall profit when they sell millions of insurance policies to relatively young/well consumers. I'd like to see Obama (or some president or Congressional leader like Hillary with guts and smarts) stand up to the insurance companies and say, "Okay, if you want to have this gigantic windfall, you'll have to use the lion's share to cover the low-income margins and those who are uninsured due to physical or mental handicap; cap your premium costs, co-pays and deductibles at an affordable level for everyone; guarantee benefit quality; no discrimination for pre-existing or age. You'll amicably agree to regulatory oversight like a public utility -- and you'll still make a huge fortune by expanding your sales to millions of Americans. Oh? You can't do that? Then we'll just mosey over toward single payer and let you wither on the vine."

    In other words, use the "mandate windfall" as a bargaining chip for a negotiation carried out before the public which the insurance companies will be expected to reject but the deal will be so fair in most consumers' eyes that they will start taking single-payer very seriously and we might get some wind in the sails of single-payer.

    Among all the elements I mentioned above for negotiation, at the very least insurers should be required to cover the low-income margins themselves rather than our forcing the federal government to use tax dollars to underwrite commercial premiums for them which is outrageous given the enormous profits of a "mandate windfall" just sitting there collecting interest for the commercial insurance industry.

    Meanwhile I'm supporting California's single payer bill, SB 840, and the Conyers bill HR 696.

    Hmm, I have to ask Harry and Louise (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:39:34 PM EST
    about their "ethos," and then I'll get back to ya on this.

    Integrity.... (4.00 / 3) (#20)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:41:25 PM EST
    Talking about what was lost in PB 1.0 was integrity, truth and a focus on the issue rather than the politician.  The bloggers, in some cases, didn't maintain their integrity, weren't clear on an issue, didn't stand firm on issues (what was the motivation)....

    Credibility isn't needed just in the bloggers and their blogs... but in the candidates.  If you are the type of person to move away from bloggers that lack consistency and integrity, you are most likely the type of person that will move away from a politician that displays the same traits (what is his motivation.)

    I would find believing any statement from him at this point.  He has committed to an increase in faith based initiatives and possibly a new cabinet position.... how far will he go with healthcare?  I would need an absolute conviction recognizing that the country is demanding it and that it is a human right... if he has a cabinet position for FBI, is there one for UHC (that mandate better be for healthcare, not for health insurance.)


    on changes of mind (none / 0) (#9)
    by christinep on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:32:43 PM EST
    With some qualification, I would support a change by Obama to universal health care.  If he truly changed to that position, what causes that is--ultimately--of little moment. Motivations are a tough thing to deal with or interpret (and, they also change.) Of course, as suggested, the qualification concerns the reality of the commitment...or not.  But: (1) I truly believe that an ethos of the Democratic Party must be a commitment to universal health care for all the citizenry of this country. We can do no less; and, to not do so with the fairly broken system that we have, is really a blot on this country. That is a personal belief that I and my family have held since the 1960s. (2) I believe that it is important to ascertain the level of any change & commitment in that regard by asking some fairly specific questions--vagaries about the commitment itself and a few underlying specifics are not worth the paper they are written on or the speech in which they flow.  A brief remark: Ethos--as opposed to a general assimilation of words with no specific content and as opposed to a position that can change rather frequently--is a concept that we really should take to heart. Perhaps, a handful of bedrock principles would become the heart of that ethos.  Thank you.

    Hmm (none / 0) (#13)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:36:48 PM EST
    I think issue advocacy is sort of like contested primaries, in the sense that people always agonize over the side effects, but in reality there is seldom a downside.

    Indeed (none / 0) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:38:41 PM EST
    I know your answer to my query, unless I have misjudged you.

    Parent
    I assume so (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:49:01 PM EST
    You gotta run on it if you want a mandate!  Otherwise, you end up like Bush, finding out that no one really wanted to phase out Social Security.

    A detail like mandates for health care doesn't necessarily have to be part of a campaign, mind you, but once you've put it on the table by saying "Hillary's plan would make you buy health care even if you can't afford it" then you can't suddenly become pro-mandate after the election!  He would get hammered with his own campaign message.

    Somehow he needs to alter his position and get people not to notice.  This is actually a trick he has lots of experience in.

    Parent

    If elected, (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by oldpro on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:05:42 PM EST
    he could let the congress know that he would not veto a Hillary-style, mandated universal healthcare bill...without picking a fight about it...and call it a compromise.

    No?

    Parent

    I think so (none / 0) (#62)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:50:27 PM EST
    Or he could say that Hillary convinced him it was the right thing while they were campaigning together.  A strong leader could pull that off, and brush off the 'oh, you flip-flopped' routine from the right and the media.

    Parent
    May not have worked too well today (none / 0) (#44)
    by RalphB on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:37:50 PM EST
    on Iraq.  Had to have a 2nd presser to "clarify" his earlier remarks clarifying his position on troop withdrawal.  Some people noticed.

    link

    Seems to me, he's now adopted the McCain position on Iraq.  :-)

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#45)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:42:46 PM EST
    Iraq is a little different IMO, because if he gets elected, it pretty much becomes his call as Commander-in-Chief.  With a policy initiative like health care, on the other hand, you need Congress on board and a certain amount of political will.  If you get a mandate for something by making it part of your campaign, it's a heck of a lot easier to persuade recalcitrant Congresspersons that this is what the people want.

    Parent
    That's certainly true (none / 0) (#56)
    by RalphB on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:22:30 PM EST
    I was addressing the "changing without anyone noticing" part of your earlier comment.  Looks like the press has caught onto him somewhat and will be watching for the flip-flops now.

    On electoral mandates, we are in complete agreement.  You could win a landslide victory with no firm positions and have no mandate at all.


    Parent

    Good Post (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:39:49 PM EST
    I hope bloggers follow your lead on this.

    Interesting... (none / 0) (#25)
    by OrangeFur on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:47:48 PM EST
    I suppose your question is whether we would prefer a principled politician who had the wrong principles, or an unprincipled politician who did the right thing for unprincipled reasons?

    Hmm--it's a tough one. Generally, I think I'd go with the latter, if I had to. A similar question would be whether I'd be happy if George W. Bush passed universal health care because of political pressure. Yes, I definitely would be. So I would be if Obama did the same.

    I don't know where Obama is right now. He sort of has principles, it seems, but he abandons the better ones too often.

    Principled Politician? (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:49:58 PM EST
    An oxymoron if you ask me, or someone with zero political future.

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:51:11 PM EST
    Okay... (none / 0) (#38)
    by OrangeFur on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:15:04 PM EST
    Let me correct that to someone who does the wrong thing for a principled reason.

    Parent
    Bush & universal health care- (none / 0) (#47)
    by tlkextra on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:57:17 PM EST
    would be thrilled, but would never vote for him for so many other reasons.
    Obama changing on mandates - also thrilled, but voting for him still a big ???? I just don't feel the confidence yet that he would follow through with anything he says during the GE.  I've witnessed how he's changed his views since many of them won him the Primary.

    Parent
    Obama's dance towards the center (none / 0) (#52)
    by Tim V on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:04:16 PM EST
    By trying to appeal to everyone

    Obama risks appealing to no one.

    FISA, Iraq, Public Financing,gun regulations, now he appears to be even tacking towards the center on abortion.

    What's next ?

    Does he stand firm on anything ?

    Will he be appearing at NASCAR races, have a photo op hunting ?

    Is it too late for supers to swing back to Hillary ?

    There's a 'center' (none / 0) (#55)
    by oldpro on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:16:00 PM EST
    on abortion?

    Hmmm.

    News to me.

    Parent

    I would love it if he came out for mandates (none / 0) (#53)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:06:24 PM EST
     I would have preferred he believed in it enough to have been advocating it from the start, but I would forgive him the flip-flop and be glad he got to my side eventually, for whatever reason.

    We are assuming he follows through on it, right?  That is a whole other issue.  If he flopped back once he got elected I'd be mad.

    I hope it was not a trick question.

    Answers: (none / 0) (#57)
    by oldpro on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:22:46 PM EST
    Yes.  It would be a good thing if he changed to mandates.

    No.  It would not matter in the least what the reason was.  Obviously, if it was political pressure, that would be a good thing.  

    If a Democratic pol won't respond to Democratic political pressure, what the Hell is the point of electing them?  (Might as well toss a coin - or stay home).

    Yes and No. (none / 0) (#59)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:35:06 PM EST
    If health care was my only deal breaker issue (it's not), and if I could somehow know that he would hold to his word and actively work toward it, then yes.

    The 'No' is because it's all a matter of trust.  I trust Obama to truly 'embrace' an issue no more than I'd trust my car to a stranger on the street who asked if they could take it for a spin.  Actually, I'd be more disposed to trust the stranger; cars can be replaced -- principles, not so much.

    Actually (none / 0) (#60)
    by americanincanada on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:37:24 PM EST
    I never claimed your comment was insulting. You obviously didn't understand what I wrote. I said the very idea that Obama's position was a takc left, IMHO, was insulting to ME as a GLBT person myself.

    I will also say, now that you have once again posted Hillary's quote, that I see nothing in her quote about giving federal money to those faith based programs.

    I Never Said That He Moved Left (none / 0) (#64)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:55:21 PM EST
    On gay marriage.  I guess your being insulted by the idea that someone would say he had moved left on the issue, was basically a non sequitur.

    And I can't imagine how you can possibly think that Hillary is against Faith Based Initiatives. Her husband signed Charatible

    "There is no contradiction between support for faith-based initiatives and upholding our constitutional principles," said Clinton, a New York Democrat who often is mentioned as a possible presidential candidate in 2008.

    [snip]

    "The Clintons, on faith-based solutions, have always been way ahead of the curve," said Rivers, citing President Clinton's support of a 1996 law banning the federal government from discriminating against religious organizations seeking funding available to groups delivering social services.


    Boston Globe

    Burns Strider, Clinton's director of faith-based outreach, "said that if she were elected, Clinton would continue funding faith-based organizations, but would seek to maintain an appropriate boundary between church and state," Christianity Today reported. "Clinton emphasizes a 'fair and level playing field' for faith-based and secular providers of social services, Strider said."

    MediaTransparency


    Parent

    I never said Clinton (none / 0) (#66)
    by americanincanada on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:01:37 PM EST
    was against FBI. I said her position and Obama's were vastly different. And they are. She made a point of talking about the seperation of church and state often and loudly. he has not. He is courting right wingers in a way no dem candidate has ever done.

    Parent
    You Are Incorrect (none / 0) (#68)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:18:16 PM EST
    Obama has moved to the left of Hillary in that he is for ending discrimination in hiring allowed under President Clintons Charitable Choice, overturned by CARE act, and retumed by a Bush executive order.

    I am sure that Hillary would have announced that she is also against hiring discrimination by recipients of federal faith based initiative monies, but she had not articulated that point.

    Both Obama and Hillary are identical in their support for these programs and both had promised to uphold the separation clause in relation to those programs.

    Both Hillary and Obama have voted for these programs as well.

    Parent

    Obama (none / 0) (#69)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:26:23 PM EST
    Now, make no mistake, as someone who used to teach constitutional law, I believe deeply in the separation of church and state, but I don't believe this partnership will endanger that idea - so long as we follow a few basic principles.

    Almost identical to what Hillary has said.

    Religious groups are unhappy about his refusal to allow religious discrimination in hiring that receive faith based initiative money:

     

    Obama will not permit faith-based hiring for the social service programs that receive federal funding. (See July 1, Columbus Dispatch report.) Jim Towey, former director of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, said: "The reality is an Orthodox Jewish group ceases to be Orthodox if they have to hire atheists or Southern Baptists. What Senator Obama is saying is groups will have to secularize if they play ball with government and receive federal funding, and that flies in the face of what many small groups want." Southern Baptist Convention public policy spokesman, Richard Land, said: "If you can't hire people within your faith community, then you've lost the distinctive that is the reason why faith-based programs exist in the first place."

    link

    Parent

    Read Corrente- Agree (none / 0) (#70)
    by fctchekr on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:04:03 PM EST
    Not sure how I originally found talkleft; it became another source in which to compare information as the news was becoming extraordinarily biased. So, I kept coming back and discovered that BTD spoke from his ethical center. Meaning when his candidate screwed up he didn't cover up.  This election is separating the ethicists from the pols. And I'm here because I'm one of the many life long Democrats who has yet to come to terms with whether or not I can vote for the candidate who won the primary.

    Yes and Yes (none / 0) (#72)
    by lizpolaris on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:53:09 AM EST
    I doesn't matter to me why a politician changes to a position which will further the public good.  In politics, the only thing that matters is the actions which result.  This is why it's crucial to look at a candidates's record and completely ignore their words.  Because it has become ever more obvious that words don't matter - at all.  What matters is policy, actions.  That's what affects people's lives.

    That's why I was for Hillary Clinton and why I'm not for Barack Obama.

    It's always a good thing (none / 0) (#73)
    by Lahdee on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:24:59 AM EST
    when he aligns with issues I support.

    A change of position due to political pressure can always be made to look like a good faith change of mind. He is a politician after all.

    If he changed his mind ... (none / 0) (#74)
    by Caro on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 06:35:56 AM EST
    ... because of further discussions with the Edwards and Hillary, and said he came to understand the issue better and its benefits not only for ordinary people but for the capitalists among us, as well, that would be okay.

    Anything else would be pandering, and I don't like pandering no matter which "side" is the beneficiary.

    Carolyn Kay
    MakeThemAccountable.com