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Obama Explains His Support For FISA Capitulation

Link:

I want to take this opportunity to speak directly to those of you who oppose my decision to support the FISA compromise.

This was not an easy call for me. I know that the FISA bill that passed the House is far from perfect. I wouldn't have drafted the legislation like this, and it does not resolve all of the concerns that we have about President Bush's abuse of executive power. It grants retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that may have violated the law by cooperating with the Bush Administration's program of warrantless wiretapping. This potentially weakens the deterrent effect of the law and removes an important tool for the American people to demand accountability for past abuses. That's why I support striking Title II from the bill, and will work with Chris Dodd, Jeff Bingaman and others in an effort to remove this provision in the Senate. [MORE . . . ]

But I also believe that the compromise bill is far better than the Protect America Act that I voted against last year. The exclusivity provision makes it clear to any President or telecommunications company that no law supersedes the authority of the FISA court. In a dangerous world, government must have the authority to collect the intelligence we need to protect the American people. But in a free society, that authority cannot be unlimited. As I've said many times, an independent monitor must watch the watchers to prevent abuses and to protect the civil liberties of the American people. This compromise law assures that the FISA court has that responsibility.

The Inspectors General report also provides a real mechanism for accountability and should not be discounted. It will allow a close look at past misconduct without hurdles that would exist in federal court because of classification issues. The recent investigation uncovering the illegal politicization of Justice Department hiring sets a strong example of the accountability that can come from a tough and thorough IG report.

The ability to monitor and track individuals who want to attack the United States is a vital counter-terrorism tool, and I'm persuaded that it is necessary to keep the American people safe -- particularly since certain electronic surveillance orders will begin to expire later this summer. Given the choice between voting for an improved yet imperfect bill, and losing important surveillance tools, I've chosen to support the current compromise. I do so with the firm intention -- once I’m sworn in as President -- to have my Attorney General conduct a comprehensive review of all our surveillance programs, and to make further recommendations on any steps needed to preserve civil liberties and to prevent executive branch abuse in the future.

Now, I understand why some of you feel differently about the current bill, and I'm happy to take my lumps on this side and elsewhere. For the truth is that your organizing, your activism and your passion is an important reason why this bill is better than previous versions. No tool has been more important in focusing peoples' attention on the abuses of executive power in this Administration than the active and sustained engagement of American citizens. That holds true -- not just on wiretapping, but on a range of issues where Washington has let the American people down.

I learned long ago, when working as an organizer on the South Side of Chicago, that when citizens join their voices together, they can hold their leaders accountable. I'm not exempt from that. I'm certainly not perfect, and expect to be held accountable too. I cannot promise to agree with you on every issue. But I do promise to listen to your concerns, take them seriously, and seek to earn your ongoing support to change the country. That is why we have built the largest grassroots campaign in the history of presidential politics, and that is the kind of White House that I intend to run as President of the United States -- a White House that takes the Constitution seriously, conducts the peoples' business out in the open, welcomes and listens to dissenting views, and asks you to play your part in shaping our country’s destiny.

Democracy cannot exist without strong differences. And going forward, some of you may decide that my FISA position is a deal breaker. That's ok. But I think it is worth pointing out that our agreement on the vast majority of issues that matter outweighs the differences we may have. After all, the choice in this election could not be clearer. Whether it is the economy, foreign policy, or the Supreme Court, my opponent has embraced the failed course of the last eight years, while I want to take this country in a new direction. Make no mistake: if John McCain is elected, the fundamental direction of this country that we love will not change. But if we come together, we have an historic opportunity to chart a new course, a better course.

So I appreciate the feedback through my.barackobama.com, and I look forward to continuing the conversation in the months and years to come. Together, we have a lot of work to do.

By Big Tent Democrat

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  • Display: Sort:
    Really, does he have to lie? (5.00 / 11) (#1)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:17:12 PM EST
    Because I'm pretty sure that this is a lie:

    As I've said many times, an independent monitor must watch the watchers to prevent abuses and to protect the civil liberties of the American people. This compromise law assures that the FISA court has that responsibility.

    Ugh.

    The first and foremost is the false premise that the current FISA does not have an exclusivity provision.

    The second is the omission of his flip flopping on his promise to filibuster any bill that contained retoractive immunity.

    the letter is an insult to your intelligence and makes me think worse of him.

    This letter may be a deal breaker for me.

    [ Parent ]

    It would have been better (5.00 / 5) (#3)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:21:44 PM EST
    if he'd just shut up about it.

    [ Parent ]
    Certainly better than this insult of a letter (5.00 / 9) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:22:40 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It is the statement from a week ago (5.00 / 8) (#63)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:02:25 PM EST
    melded with some 'you grassroots guys are great - you almost got what you wanted!' malarkey.

    I dobut it will make anyone happy.

    [ Parent ]

    I had an interesting conversation (5.00 / 8) (#8)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:24:47 PM EST
    at lunch with a big time Obama supporter about this today.  
    after I explained what FISA was and why it was bad he seemed pretty unhappy.
    I think it might be a deal breaker for others as well.

    [ Parent ]
    btw (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:41:00 PM EST
    I did not intend to suggest by this comment that all or even most Obama supporters are so uninformed.
    but this one was and I suspect there are more than a few in the same hope and change boat.
    soon to be without a paddle.

    [ Parent ]
    From your keyboard to God's ears! (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by Shainzona on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:51:29 PM EST
    There is STILL TIME to avoid the upcoming disaster!!!

    [ Parent ]
    Welcome to the pack, BTD! (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Shainzona on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:26:38 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    If its any solace... (5.00 / 5) (#51)
    by Exeter on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:55:13 PM EST
    He doubt he wrote it or approved it.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh no! Another campaign aide (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by lmv on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:00:52 PM EST
    under the bus ...

    Like the one who cleverly filled out the DC handgun question in Obama's own handwriting ...

    [ Parent ]

    he is going to need (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:28:27 PM EST
    a bigger bus

    [ Parent ]
    LOL. Thanks for the laugh! (none / 0) (#52)
    by Shainzona on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:56:22 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    that (none / 0) (#53)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:56:37 PM EST
    makes me feel MUCH better

    [ Parent ]
    it's remarkably patronizing (5.00 / 5) (#132)
    by kempis on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:41:06 PM EST
    And what does this mean:

    But I do promise to listen to your concerns, take them seriously, and seek to earn your ongoing support to change the country.

    Change it to what?

    The entire second half of the speech is an appeal to his audience that goes something like this: "I'm an activist and you're activists and aren't we great even when we disagree!"

    This is slick and smarmy and he avoids addressing that little matter of the telecom immunity at all.

    I guess we'll see how many people stop rocking the boat because Obama intertwined his activist biography with theirs. Maybe the flattery is enough for some. We'll see.

    [ Parent ]

    The patronizing tone is too typical (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:23:00 PM EST
    with him.  This is not the tone of a Constitutional law "prof" or even of a politician.

    This is the tone of a therapist -- or perhaps a group facilitator.  Ugh.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama represents more of an independent (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by hairspray on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:29:42 PM EST
    population that is more about transformation as in Adlai Stevenson that in material well being as in FDR. Read an excellent analysis by Anglachel on the fault lines in the Democratic party around these two visions of what the D party should be.
    anglachelg.blogspot.com/2008_07_01_


    [ Parent ]
    The letter (5.00 / 3) (#133)
    by Hope on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:41:37 PM EST
    is way too long. Gosh, the guy waffles on.

    Why can't he just take up clear positions? Then we can agree or disagree, but this eternal sand shifting is getting tiresome.

    I'm tempted to say, what would you vote for? Last week's seeming position, this week's, or next week's?

    I'm sorry, but at the end of the day everybody has a life and just trying to follow his convolutions takes up too much time.

    The longer the campaign goes on the less sure what his stands are on anything. And I'm beginning to wonder if he has core values. At least when he was standing as a loony lefty you knew where he was at.

    [ Parent ]

    Whoa! (none / 0) (#134)
    by tek on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:41:44 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    What is the alternative? (none / 0) (#150)
    by MKS on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:56:26 PM EST
    Viable alternative.

    [ Parent ]
    Doing nothing (none / 0) (#175)
    by Nadai on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:31:45 PM EST
    until a new President is sworn in works for me.

    [ Parent ]
    An independent watcher of the watchers (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by scribe on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:22:44 PM EST
    is also known as a plaintiff with a suit, and an independent judge who requires issues - plaintiff's and defendant's to be proven pursuant to the Rules of Evidence.

    The blurb on his site also looks like it was written prior to the al-Haramin decision hitting the web this morning - even a cursory reading of the "Exclusivity" section of that opinion makes clear that the "new" "exclusivity" section of the New FISA bill is, well, a huge step backwards.

    [ Parent ]

    Don't understand (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by rilkefan on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:24:09 PM EST
    "losing important surveillance tools"

    What is he talking about?  "Certain electronic surveillance orders" - what's up with that?  How was the original FISA setup inadequate?

    Seems that Obama (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by shoephone on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:12:31 PM EST
    likes (or, at least, doesn't dislike) the blanket warrants.

    That's what I glean from it.

    [ Parent ]

    rilkefan (none / 0) (#61)
    by cal1942 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:02:00 PM EST
    that's always been my question.  Original FISA was itself pretty loose even to the extent of granting retroactive warrants.

    Another question I have about those " ... important surveillance tools," is; doesn't the original FISA (1978) apply when the most recent act expires?

    [ Parent ]

    Sounds like a bunch (5.00 / 8) (#7)
    by mikeyleigh on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:24:22 PM EST
    of doublespeak.  Orwell would be quite proud of Obama.  I especially liked the part where he says he's willing to take his lumps.  When has he ever taken responsibility for anything he does unless, of course, he's the object of unadulterated praise.

    "Willing" is really the wrong word (5.00 / 6) (#9)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:25:25 PM EST
    WORM is that he's not afraid of the left, and more afraid of Karl Rove.

    [ Parent ]
    He has no reason to be afraid (5.00 / 6) (#90)
    by shoephone on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:15:28 PM EST
    of those on the left if he's assured of their votes, no matter his latest position statements.

    Without the threat of witholding our votes, there is no bargaining chip.

    [ Parent ]

    just keep saying this (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:16:25 PM EST
    ok?

    [ Parent ]
    You got that right (5.00 / 6) (#168)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:24:23 PM EST
    Any politician who won't listen to you when he needs your vote is definitely not going to listen to you after he obtains the office he is seeking. As long as you are willing to vote for him regardless of what he does, you have no power to change the agenda. He is going to be spending his time giving away your issues in order to try and capture the non Democratic person who is reluctant to vote for him.

    [ Parent ]
    Yawn! (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by Shainzona on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:25:25 PM EST
    Flip.  Flop.  WORM.

    Nothing new here!

    Yup, this is textbook WORM (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:37:14 PM EST
    The OFB will respond predictably.

    [ Parent ]
    It seems to me (5.00 / 8) (#41)
    by CHDmom on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:51:06 PM EST
    Whenever Obama says "As I've said many times" or things similar to that, it is usually something that is a new position for him.

    [ Parent ]
    Rather like when (5.00 / 7) (#65)
    by tree on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:02:30 PM EST
    we hear, "No one has done more for...." it means he's about to kick another group or issue in the knees.

    [ Parent ]
    Tree....I think he always aims a tad higher (5.00 / 7) (#68)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:03:32 PM EST
    than the knees... :)

    [ Parent ]
    Ha! (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by tree on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:05:59 PM EST
    I censored myself for the sake of Jeralyn's rules and chose the lower piece of anatomy.

    [ Parent ]
    Not always (5.00 / 5) (#106)
    by Faust on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:24:23 PM EST
    But he does say that phrase way way way way way way way way way too often. And yes sometimes he uses it in front of a brand new statement, and that makes it worse.

    [ Parent ]
    Soon we need to call a flip-flop/WORM (4.50 / 8) (#49)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:53:15 PM EST
    by it's real name....a LIE...The bad think about twisting the truth is that it gets harder and harder to remember what you said....I smell a big fat bamboozlement for some of obama's flock.

    [ Parent ]
    So true, Psstt.... (5.00 / 6) (#58)
    by Shainzona on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:58:46 PM EST
    The man lies.  

    We have to come to grips with that - and, yes, BTD, while all politicians lie and I'm stupid not to realize it...we have the chance to get rid of this particular liar before the Dem Party falls off the cliff and into the sea.


    [ Parent ]

    All politicians do lie (5.00 / 6) (#85)
    by RalphB on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:13:18 PM EST
    but all lies are not equal.  Most lies are harmless enhancers etc but lying about support for the Constitution and human rights is beyond the pale.


    [ Parent ]
    Shainzona....it is time we called a spade, (4.30 / 10) (#75)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:08:23 PM EST
    a spade....I don't see what he does as anything
    other than lying....O/T, saw these titles on my homepage and was struck at the differences in how McCain and Obama define patriotism...

    McCain: 'Patriotism is putting country first before all else'

    Obama: 'Patriotism means faith in one another as Americans'

    Patriotism, as I was taught it, seems to fall more in line with McCain than obama...or is it just me?

    [ Parent ]

    ohhhh man (5.00 / 8) (#99)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:21:09 PM EST
    His language drives me up the wall... I must just be fed up today, but give me a break...  'Patriotism means faith in one another as Americans'... Faith in what??  If I'm a true patriot, a true American, I will have faith in him?  cough, BS, cough, cough.....

    [ Parent ]
    Easy there Waldenpond....breathe.... (5.00 / 4) (#110)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:27:39 PM EST
    it is very easy to choke on b.s.

    [ Parent ]
    I have faith in politicians who honor (5.00 / 4) (#172)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:29:49 PM EST
    their oaths of office and protect the Constitution. I have absolutely no faith in any politician that is willing to sell out on that responsibility. IMO that signals to me that there is no principle that is not for sale.

    [ Parent ]
    PLEASE! Tell me he didn't really say that? (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Shainzona on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:30:36 PM EST
    Oh, please!

    [ Parent ]
    Yes....it is true shainzona... (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:50:51 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Tben....thanks for the troll rating....you (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:24:05 PM EST
    never disappoint....

    [ Parent ]
    Oh - Tben is back. Ignore him/her... (5.00 / 3) (#118)
    by Shainzona on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:31:31 PM EST
    and hope s/he goes AWAY!!!!

    [ Parent ]
    change "think" to thing.....sorry (none / 0) (#50)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:55:13 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Blah, blah, blah (5.00 / 18) (#12)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:27:27 PM EST
    "Allow me to expand at great length on why I actually agree with both sides in this debate."

    I'm so tired of this already.

    Like when he refused to filibuster (5.00 / 9) (#13)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:29:26 PM EST
    Oh, you said it first. (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by pie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:45:10 PM EST
    Blah.

    What a boring candidate.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, I'm just struck (5.00 / 13) (#15)
    by frankly0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:32:45 PM EST
    by this passage:

    Democracy cannot exist without strong differences. And going forward, some of you may decide that my FISA position is a deal breaker. That's ok. But I think it is worth pointing out that our agreement on the vast majority of issues that matter outweighs the differences we may have. After all, the choice in this election could not be clearer. Whether it is the economy, foreign policy, or the Supreme Court, my opponent has embraced the failed course of the last eight years, while I want to take this country in a new direction. Make no mistake: if John McCain is elected, the fundamental direction of this country that we love will not change.

    Really, this is just to reiterate the same argument that Obama supporters have been throwing at Hillary supporters who don't want to vote for Obama: "No matter what I do, I've got better policies than McCain, right? In fact, all I have to do is be better than McCain to deserve your support. So get over it, buddy, you've got no place else to go if you care about policies. Cry me a river."

    Policies that are at best.... (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:38:27 PM EST
    ...only marginally better in some very important areas. Oh well, did he just flip flop on Iraq too or can I believe the Dem spin that he's just saying what he's said all along?

    [ Parent ]
    Samantha Power spilled the beans on Iraq in March (5.00 / 9) (#48)
    by jfung79 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:52:53 PM EST
    I don't know if it's a flip-flop, but sadly, I'm not surprised by Obama's latest statements on Iraq.  Samantha Power already told the BBC a few months ago that Obama's plan was just for the campaign.  

    Of course, the Obama supporters didn't care that this meant he was promising them absolutely NOTHING on Iraq compared to Hillary's comprehensive plan to withdraw responsibly starting within 60 days endorsed by Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson.  Hillary hate apparently trumps all.

    [ Parent ]

    In other words: "Give me this one" (5.00 / 10) (#27)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:40:24 PM EST
    and I'll get back to you guys on the rest of that vast majority of issues, unspecified, when they come up, when I will undertake better actions, unspecified. . . .

    For only one problem with this statement, he -- the Constitutional law "prof" -- seems to put this issue on parity with lots of other issues, unspecified.

    Senator Obama, just what are your priorities?  Just what priority would you put on -- see that oath you swore -- upholding the Constitution?

    [ Parent ]

    constitutional "prof" (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by lmv on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:56:44 PM EST
    Compare Obama's doublespeak to Greenwald's clear-eyed explanations.  

    Constitutional law prof?  Not likely.

    If I understand Greenwald correctly, there is no need for this new FISA law other than giving ammunity to telecom companies and cover to congress.

    There is no moral high ground in Obama's position.  

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah, (5.00 / 4) (#81)
    by cal1942 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:10:31 PM EST
    we're being told that we should ignore the fact that supporting normal feces in lieu of diarrhea is still supporting dreck.

    [ Parent ]
    I trust Greenwald, Turley and Feingold (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:35:35 PM EST
    on this issue and I believe there is no need for this law.

    IMO just another sell out by Obama.  

    [ Parent ]

    This is the line that bothered me (5.00 / 3) (#149)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:55:54 PM EST
    Make no mistake: if John McCain is elected, the fundamental direction of this country that we love will not change.
    This is the standard argument from him and some of his supporters. It's like telling someone, "I know I'm bad but he's worse". That's a lame excuse at best.


    [ Parent ]
    The lesser-of-two-evils argument (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:02:53 PM EST
    acknowledges that both choices are evil.

    So it never has seemed a wise argument, to me.

    [ Parent ]

    ugh (none / 0) (#80)
    by Little Fish on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:10:22 PM EST
    I feel like my vote is being held hostage.  

    [ Parent ]
    you own your vote (5.00 / 8) (#91)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:15:37 PM EST
    it is hostage to no one and nothing.
    it is, in fact, all you have.

    [ Parent ]
    What did he just say? (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by Xanthe on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:33:28 PM EST
    Oh God, I suppose if he wins the presidency we'll be reading and hearing lots of stuff like this.

    P.S.  No one in Chicago holds Dick Daley accountable, Senator.  or Todd Stroger for that matter.  Not when you were that organizer in Chicago's South Side and not now!

    I am no Obama fan but, (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by DA Burgher on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:35:13 PM EST
    he was on to something with the Hope/Change meme. I do not understand the new mutation of Obama. I think he is trying to pick up some undecided and independents, but risks losing some liberal voters. Looking like a flip flopper and lying will not help with ANY voters.

    Bill Clinton ran as a moderate... BUT he IS a moderate.

    if I had any confidence (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:38:02 PM EST
    Obama would push the same "moderate" policies Bill did I would be so happy to vote for him.


    [ Parent ]
    Happy as can be to vote for another Bill (5.00 / 4) (#35)
    by RalphB on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:44:36 PM EST
    but Obama gives me absolutely no warm fuzzies in that direction.


    [ Parent ]
    Regarding the hope/change message.... (5.00 / 5) (#31)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:42:42 PM EST
    ....all he was promising was that we would all get along and agree on most things. I always understood that he wasn't promising a liberal agenda because he's too smart to believe that he could get Republicans to roll over for that. Now some people did interpret hope/change to mean that he was promising a progressive utopia, but that was just wishful thinking on their part.

    [ Parent ]
    Regarding H/C message (none / 0) (#124)
    by DA Burgher on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:36:15 PM EST
    Wasn't his whole campaign promise based on changing the politics of Washington to a new type of politics? I can't remember how many times people touted Obama as being the most liberal senator in the senate, therefore assuming he would BE liberal. The bottom line is he is just different.

    [ Parent ]
    I guess that was the key thing that people missed. (5.00 / 0) (#137)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:44:01 PM EST
    He promised to change the politics, not the policies!

    [ Parent ]
    He is an independent. He is not an FDR (none / 0) (#183)
    by hairspray on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:44:48 PM EST
    Democrat, rather a Stevensonian Democrat. Or more of an independent who will decide which parts of the Democratic party and its voters he will support.  THAT is scary because HE gets to decide. It is all about a moral transformation rather than changing the material lives of ordinary working people.  Just look at who loves Obama and who loved Hillary.  The Democratic party is split down the middle and the fault lines are here to be seen.

    [ Parent ]
    BLAH BLAH BLAH... (5.00 / 7) (#18)
    by imhotep on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:35:24 PM EST
    His soaring rhetoric doesn't convince me that voting for an "imperfect"(!!!) bill is better than writing a bill that does not expand domestic surveillance and give immunity to the telecoms (and Bush).  
    His supporters have been duped on this and other issues.  At least with Hillary we knew what to expect. And I do not mean that in any pejorative sense.

    Isn't this exactly what HRC and JE (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by NJDem on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:53:58 PM EST
    called Obama on in the debate for to a bill he supported re: capping credit card interest rates at 30%?  I can't remember the details (I'm sure one of you smart ppl will), but it was just like this.  IIRC.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (4.85 / 7) (#152)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:58:37 PM EST
    What he said is that he voted against the 30% cap because he felt the cap ought to be lower.  Of course, voting against the cap meant that there was no cap at all.

    I honestly cannot remember a politician who has offered so many patently disingenuous explanations for bad votes.  Most of them don't even bother trying to BS you, I guess.  Have you heard the one about how he voted for Cheney's energy bill - the one almost every Republican voted for and all the major pro-environment Dems voted against - because somewhere in there it had money for alternative energy?

    [ Parent ]

    The credit card interest cap (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by tree on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:05:32 PM EST
    was a perfect example of an imperfect bill that was better than none at all. And Obama voted against it, nevertheless. I'm not buying any of his rationalizations about the current bill being "imperfect" but better than no bill at all.

    [ Parent ]
    I can't recall him ever "owning up" (5.00 / 2) (#182)
    by tlkextra on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:43:33 PM EST
    to a single thing. He has continually responded to any issue or criticism by diversion. His speeches are filled with "America needs..." and "He/She will do..." yet he rarely follows up with what he will actually do. I'm struck by the glimmers of egotism that have long ago turned me off - such as the comment about how he went ahead and voted for this flawed Bill, but WHEN he's President, he'll go back and remedy it - or this may be a deal breaker, but that's OKAY.  It's like when the Obama camp said after HRC dropped out that he didn't have any plans to WOO the Clinton Supporters.  At this point, I really don't know where he stands or what he believes and who he is trying to get to vote for him. Is he that confident that no matter what he does or says, it is a given that he's been Ordained to be President?

    [ Parent ]
    Awful (5.00 / 9) (#19)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:36:39 PM EST
    Really stupid to write such an obvious POS. It amounts to rubbing it in.

    Oh, did anyone say.... (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by desertswine on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:36:59 PM EST
    Blah, blah, blah yet?

    Because that's all I'm hearing (from Obama.

    I been there for a while (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:39:01 PM EST
    like in the peanuts cartoons when adults talk.

    [ Parent ]
    I liken him (5.00 / 0) (#38)
    by janarchy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:47:08 PM EST
    to Taz's father on Tazmania. Who was a Tasmanian Devil who sounded just like Bing Crosby.

    "Blah blah blah yackety schmackety".

    It's sad when all I hear is white noise coming out of his mouth (no racial comment intended).

    [ Parent ]

    You said it first. (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by pie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:43:48 PM EST
    Condescending, too, aren't we?

    [ Parent ]
    BTD I knew you always supported Hillary (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by thereyougo on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:38:07 PM EST
    before you did Obama.

    For this reason some of us never waivered. We could see him for what he was.

    the CHANGE candidate keeps changing his tune.

    He's looking more like the Bait and Switch candidate.

    There still time to change the Super Delegates mind.

    You realize that most of the super delegates (none / 0) (#111)
    by Faust on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:27:41 PM EST
    also support the FISA capitulation. Indeed, some of them helped craft it.

    [ Parent ]
    What is the source for your comment? (none / 0) (#128)
    by imhotep on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:38:25 PM EST
    Just asking as many House Dems voted against it and I'm not in tune as to who in the Senate is supporting the Dodd-Feingold ammendment.

    [ Parent ]
    Second verse (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by chrisvee on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:40:43 PM EST
    Democracy cannot exist without strong differences. And going forward, some of you may decide that my FISA position is a deal breaker. That's ok. But I think it is worth pointing out that our agreement on the vast majority of issues that matter outweighs the differences we may have.

    Lather, rinse, repeat. Besides, you have no place else to go.

    um, (4.00 / 3) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:42:09 PM EST
    surprise!
    we do actually.  I may finally vote for Nader.

    [ Parent ]
    My post (none / 0) (#44)
    by chrisvee on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:51:39 PM EST
    was snark.  In case it hasn't been obvious lo these many months, I'm not exactly an Obama supporter. :-)

    [ Parent ]
    I know (none / 0) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:57:17 PM EST
    but mine was not

    [ Parent ]
    Dealbreaker (4.87 / 8) (#78)
    by chrisvee on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:09:09 PM EST
    We keep talking about dealbreakers.  For some it's an issue, for some it's a VP choice, etc.  But what I'm waiting for is the dealmaker.  What will finally convince me that I should vote for Obama?  What will change between now and the GE?  When he releases statements like the one above, it makes me feel there's no compelling reason for me to vote for him.  He may be closer to my personal values than McCain but not close enough.  He's a mystery to me. I don't know what he stands for and where he'll draw the line and fight. I don't understand why the Dems had to push this FISA issue at all. I can only assume Obama wants the power as POTUS and that's scary.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:12:47 PM EST
    anyone who says the know what his values are has a better crystal ball than me.
    all we have to go on is statements like this one.
    and the faith based one and etc etc.


    [ Parent ]
    and you can only (5.00 / 4) (#153)
    by Hope on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:59:27 PM EST
    go back to what he's actually DONE.

    Erm chucked off all those people from the ballot using legal eaglese.

    Done "boneheaded" real estate deals with a slum lord.

    Had his campaign launched from an unrepentant terrorist.

    etc etc.

    And I'm still waiting to know what PROPER job he's ever done.

    [ Parent ]

    I;ve asked Obama Supporters (5.00 / 6) (#155)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:04:19 PM EST
    On this site to show me the positives of an Obama administration and repeatedly the answer I get is" what a disaster a McCain presidency would be. I've finally came to the conclusion that his strength is he's not McCain. Not exactly a glowing recommendation.

    [ Parent ]
    Not exactly an Obama supporter (2.50 / 4) (#188)
    by rilkefan on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:50:00 PM EST
    but he's very smart, very capable, a Democrat, has a bunch of great wonky policies, inspires people, and will restore America's image in the world.

    If you don't like that stuff then ok, but you're not a Democrat.

    [ Parent ]

    Been there, seen that....... (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by tlkextra on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:00:16 PM EST
    Great attempt to get my vote - by name calling

    [ Parent ]
    Or, It Is A Dishonest Question (none / 0) (#157)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:06:19 PM EST
    Unless you are a helpless individual.

    [ Parent ]
    Combine all the presidential powers that (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:45:26 PM EST
    Bush established along with all Democratic funds consolidated under Obama's umbrella and cutting off contributions to activist groups and that's really scary.

    [ Parent ]
    The media says HRC needs to convince (5.00 / 4) (#195)
    by tlkextra on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:57:24 PM EST
    her Supporters to back him -WRONG- it is up to Obama to earn my support. Instead, this last month has raised more and more concerns. For me, I chose to support HRC after Edwards dropped out because it came down to the fact I was familiar with her history of service and experience. I have never seen so much importance placed on being a Community Organizer. Obama brings it up in almost every speech. That and his anti-Iraq speech. I also was against the War before we invaded, but in no way do I think that alone should qualify me to be President. I need more from him.

    [ Parent ]
    This: (5.00 / 8) (#32)
    by pie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:42:53 PM EST
    I do so with the firm intention -- once I'm sworn in as President -- to have my Attorney General conduct a comprehensive review of all our surveillance programs, and to make further recommendations on any steps needed to preserve civil liberties and to prevent executive branch abuse in the future.

    So you're allowing the continued abuse now, but will "review" it in the future.

    That South Side organizer crap was also irritating.

    The whole thing was irritating!  Blah, blah, blah...  


    Yes, the organizer stuff was just (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:06:27 PM EST
    pointless and irritating.

    [ Parent ]
    His responses sound canned. (none / 0) (#189)
    by hairspray on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:50:20 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Not to mention the assumption he'll win... (none / 0) (#199)
    by Dawn Davenport on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:05:24 PM EST
    ...but what if it's McCain who becomes president, rather than himself? Is he still comfortable giving those kinds of powers to sidestep the 4th to others who may become president?

    [ Parent ]
    BTD, (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by samanthasmom on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:50:25 PM EST
    Here, kitty, kitty?

    My cats all ran in the other direction. (none / 0) (#64)
    by nycstray on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:02:30 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    oh oh, Obama is shaking his base (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by thereyougo on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:51:36 PM EST
    yikes!  bloggers bailing,one  issue at a time.

    Thats going to be veddyy interestiiiinggggggh!

    the grumbling is getting louder and louder.

    what a load of (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:52:25 PM EST
    garbage.  And what happens when it is used against alleged drug dealers?  Keeping us safe?  Just how many successful prosecutions do we have under the "patriot act" for terrorists?  Just another bs attempt by a paranoid gov't to populate our prison system. Another tool in the gov't toolbox that will ultimately be abused. The audacity of dopes under the guise of making us safer.  

    That's ok. (5.00 / 10) (#47)
    by Moishele on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:52:45 PM EST
    And going forward, some of you may decide that my FISA position is a deal breaker. That's ok.

    How magnanimous of Obama to say we can actually disagree with him.

    careful what he wishes for (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by thereyougo on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:00:18 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    LOL, that was nice of him. (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by vicndabx on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:14:22 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You Got To Dance With Them What Brung You (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by john horse on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:56:47 PM EST
    Now, I understand why some of you feel differently about the current bill, and I'm happy to take my lumps on this side and elsewhere. For the truth is that your organizing, your activism and your passion is an important reason why this bill is better than previous versions.

    I hope Obama remembers that a major reason that Democrats, including himself, are in a position to win this year is because of the "activism and passion" of those on the left.

    There is only so much disappointment that we can take from Obama and the spineless Democrats that control our Congress.

    As the late great Molly Ivins once wrote "you got to dance with them what brung you."

    "For The Truth Is.." (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by MsExPat on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:24:17 PM EST
    "that your organizing, your activism and your passion is an important reason.."

    ..in fact the ONLY reason that I, Barack Obama, am standing here now as the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee.

    But that was then, and this is now. Get over it.

    [ Parent ]

    I said this a few days ago (none / 0) (#57)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:58:42 PM EST
    but I always knew that Hillary would follow that maxim. Obama. . .who knows?

    [ Parent ]
    she said she didn't agree with the current FISA (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by thereyougo on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:03:27 PM EST
    capitulation.

    she stood her ground before and after. Obama just flipped after he got the P.Nom.

    I'm just amazed how he is self destructing and doesn't even know it.

    it is going to be a loooong hot summer for him, certainly not boring.

    [ Parent ]

    Have Not Seen That (none / 0) (#86)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:13:56 PM EST
    Got a link?

    [ Parent ]
    You Must Be Kidding (3.00 / 2) (#62)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:02:19 PM EST
    She is a Pol just like the rest of em. I imagine that she would be in the same place Obama is right now regarding FISA.

    [ Parent ]
    Hard to say (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by nycstray on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:05:13 PM EST
    She doesn't "owe" Pelosi and friends the time of day, afaik. And Schumer spoke up,  which for some reason I found interesting . . .

    [ Parent ]
    I wasn't surprised (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by MsExPat on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:52:01 PM EST
    that Schumer spoke up. Pretty much the whole New York metro area congressional delegation is on the list of reps who voted against the FISA legislation. Schumer is a real pol and he knows where his votes are.

    [ Parent ]
    Voted Against? (none / 0) (#151)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:57:48 PM EST
    The vote we are concerned with is coming up on July 8. Has Schumer promised to vote against the new FISA?

    [ Parent ]
    That's what I'm referring to. (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by nycstray on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:23:43 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    He has (none / 0) (#169)
    by shoephone on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:26:24 PM EST
    according to Think Progress.

    [ Parent ]
    Good For Him (none / 0) (#170)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:29:38 PM EST
    Now time to call Hillary, my other senator.

    [ Parent ]
    Dem theater before yet another mass cave (none / 0) (#204)
    by Ellie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:21:51 PM EST
    I've smelled this smell before: it happens on every major issue before yet another needless mass cave.

    It's the powerful smell of fear and mendacity, the stench of standard @ss-covering Dems in Spelunking mode.

    Obama should be leading on this, firmly, unequivocally, and without mush'mouthing. He shouldn't be "supporting" the concept of a notion of an idea of a filibuster with a statement on his web page.

    He should be rallying, not running wayyyy to the extra-constitutional, extra-judicial hard fascist right on this.

    I wish there were more precedent to assume Schumer's display was more than pre-emptively spreading around the pre Cave-in "bravery" so Dems can avoid the post Spelunking needless, multiple cave-in blame.

    Like last time?
    Like on Roberts and Alito?
    Like every time?

    I thought we had a brave leader this time, not this charlatan.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't know why it stood out for me (none / 0) (#173)
    by nycstray on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:30:05 PM EST
    Maybe because so much focus was on what she would say while she has to play the Unity BS game. Her opinion was on the quiet side and his wasn't.

    And yup, my Rep voted the 'right' way  :)

    [ Parent ]

    Mine Too (none / 0) (#181)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:42:24 PM EST