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Tuesday Night Open Thread

Did anyone see the Access Hollywood interview with the Obama family? The kids are cute. It will be airing in parts for a few days.

Obama's donors apparently are resisting helping Hillary retire her campaign debt. The comments are nasty. So far, his donors have contributed only $100,000 or so.

On an unrelated note, the iPhone goes on sale Friday. Is anyone here going to stand in line to buy one? I'm thinking about it.

This is an open thread. Remember, disagreement and criticism are fine, but no personal attacks or insults.

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    According to Rasmussen... (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:23:55 PM EST
    Congress has a 9% approval rating. I think the bubonic plague might be higher.

    I don't think this affects the Democrats' advantage going into the fall, but what does it take to get Pelosi et al to figure out they need to wake up and actually do something?

    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:39:34 PM EST
    Bubonic plague indeed.

    I don't expect we'll see any actions worth lauding out of Congress any time soon.  It has hit critical mass for people who have no motivations besides keeping their seats.

    The problem is most people who feel Congress is doing a bad job either like their own Congressperson and feel the rest of the bunch is the problem, or hate them but don't want to give up their person's power.

    And as long as there is a critical mass of do-nothings, each individual Congressmember can always blame all the others for their collective ineffectiveness.  It's the inaction of a crowd effect, writ national.  

    Plus, the ascendant wing of the party -- my pals Dean, Pelosi, Reid, Obama -- would rather la la la dream of some future day of greatness than buckle down and fight the good fight now.  Because the good fight is hard.  Collecting money from corporate sponsors is easy.

    Parent

    Even Jonathan Turley, constitutional (5.00 / 4) (#82)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:29:26 PM EST
    attorney, said today there is a cover-up involved regarding FISA, which has to include some dems that are covering their butts...and the fix is in.

    Parent
    Gee (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by nell on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:25:34 PM EST
    those Obama supporters quoted in the NY Times victory are such good losers. Whatever, their comments do nothing to achieve unity. The more they continue to disrespect Senator Clinton and what her historic candidacy has meant to so many of us, the less likely Clinton supporters are to rally around the nominee. It went from WWTSBQ to Why Didn't the Stupid B***h quit...it never ends.

    Well I guess I'll have to send Hillary more $$$ (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:32:49 PM EST
    ...I thought this was behind us but apparently not.

    Parent
    I rather give to help pay off her debt ... (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:16:58 PM EST
    than contribute to his campaign. She has shown that she stands by her words: she said she would work to help him win, and she has stepped to the plate in the spirit of unity. This "reticence" from the Obama camp is yet another proof that those who accused her of divisive were just mirroring their own divisiveness.  

    Parent
    Obama donors may have given only (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by RalphB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:06:55 PM EST
    about $100k but I hear that PUMA sites have raised around $4M to retire her debt.  Can't vouch for it but it's what's going around.

    This is funny.  While I don't really disagree with Obama here, it's not usually a good idea to say you're ashamed of Americans ...

    video

    Parent

    I don't think he said he was ashamed (5.00 / 0) (#80)
    by zfran on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:28:02 PM EST
    of americans. I do however, think he should have used more than Spanish at the beginning to make his point about our kids being bilingual. It sounded as if we should learn spanish to be able to communicate with all the legal and illegal people from down south that come here. He really didn't get to his point until the end of that clip!

    Parent
    It's seek Latin voters day--both McCain and Obama (none / 0) (#122)
    by jawbone on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:09:56 PM EST
    spoke to Latin leaders' group.

    So, Spanish was the important language of the day. Or week. Or election.

    Me, I'd be pushing Chinese, other Asian languages, along with some European languages.

    Parent

    had not asked for help paying her debt.  

    Clinton and her own supporters need to pay this debt, if she doesn't wish to hear negative responses from Obama supporters when they are solicited.

    Parent

    Are you from this solar system? (5.00 / 5) (#13)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:39:21 PM EST
    Those nasty comments have been coming non-stop since before the primaries began.

    Parent
    You do not know how politics, she is done (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:41:03 PM EST
    clearly.  The Obama supporters are the outliers on this (no surprise, perhaps, with the "new politics").  You can search past threads here to know the history of this in previous campaigns.

    Parent
    She didn't ask (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:43:07 PM EST
    Obama did.

    Obama supporters are betraying the politician they support!!!!!!!!

    Parent

    What's more, it's traditional for the (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by BackFromOhio on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:48:35 PM EST
    winning campaign to help the competitor retire campaign debts.

    Parent
    Oh Rosie (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by nell on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:50:08 PM EST
    I have something you want, something you need. You know what that is?

    My swing state vote.

    Parent

    Your country and your descendants and your own (1.75 / 4) (#36)
    by RosieScenario on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:59:52 PM EST
    personal self-interest need your vote, if you choose to exercise it.  

    The particular comments made in the article linked by Jeralyn were made in response to a solicitation to Obama supporters to give money to Clinton's campaign.  I simply pointed out this fact -- if these comments are distasteful to Clinton and her supporters, they can simply pay off the debt themselves.

    As the article makes clear, it is not at all traditional for a campaign to incur $20 million in debt.  It is way beyond normal for Clinton to expect Obama supporters to pony up millions.

    Parent

    no, you implied that the solicitation (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:07:12 PM EST
    came from Clinton, when in fact the solicitation came from Obama.

    And regards the article making clear what is traditional for campaign debt....  this was no traditional year.  There has never been a primary like this with the levels of spending that were recorded.  So, there really aren't any past primaries which are comparable.

    Also, what is traditional id for the winning candidate to help the other retire their debt.  There is nothing out of the ordinary here for Obama to assist in this.  It is standard procedure.

    Parent

    The fact that the Obama campaign has (5.00 / 4) (#150)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:38:39 PM EST
    been so stingy with their money tells you something about the quality of the UNITY schtick they are always spouting off about.  But this isn't the only issue.  In Iowa the O campaign has pulled out of the combined GOTV effort with the local party and placed the volunteers on the O payroll.  The plan is to simply GOTV in student rich areas where Obama will pull in the most votes. Pull out of areas that might net Democrats in the state legislature and leave them on their own. The local pols are worried about the downstate races. You can get it on desmoinesdem.

    Parent
    So, the Democratic party (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by seeker on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:37:00 AM EST
    means nothing to Obama.  His supporters are just following his lead:  to He11 with the rest of the party or party unity.

    Guess what, I can do that too.  Hillary will get any extra money I might have until and unless Obama starts to act like he is a Democrat in all respects.  

    Parent

    You forgot to mention the concentration (5.00 / 5) (#46)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:08:35 PM EST
    camps we will be sent to if McCain is elected
    (a threat from an Obama delegate).
    Remember that next time---you might be more convincing.

    Parent
    As if anything can make (5.00 / 5) (#52)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:12:33 PM EST
    the nasty comments about Clinton and her supporters stop.  CDS clearly is an incurable illness, as some just can't get over it.

    No doubt my descendants still will be hearing the anti-Clinton comments decades from now.  

    Parent

    Don't be misleading (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:17:25 PM EST
    I don't know what you are used to at other sites, but we are high information voters here and know how to use 'the google'.

    Clinton is not asking anyone to help pay back the part of her debt that a loan of her own money to her campaign.  She has said she considers that an investment for the future.  She's only asking for help paying back her vendors -- a little less than half the number you quoted (depending on which account you read).   That has been widely reported on.

    Parent

    As the article makes clear, (5.00 / 4) (#76)
    by echinopsia on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:25:28 PM EST
    she's not asking for $20M, not does she expect it. Obama asked.

    And if you think the distasteful comments about her -still, when all is said and done, a fellow Democrat - are the price to be paid for HIS asking, I think you're more than a little wrong.

    To put it mildly and to avoid being erased.

    Parent

    I hope you're OK then (5.00 / 5) (#84)
    by frankly0 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:31:00 PM EST
    if virtually no Hillary supporter gives Obama a dime?

    These are the same supporters who raised 229 million dollars for Hillary.

    Happy that that means nothing to you, because that 2O some million Hillary owes is just way too much for Obama supporters to make even the smallest dent in.

    I'm sure that Obama has no interest in any of that money -- or in the votes of Hillary supporters either, who may not be so happy to see how vindictive his little "movement" is toward Hillary.

    Parent

    I think you may be reading more into this (2.00 / 2) (#94)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:39:53 PM EST
    than what's happening out there.

    who may not be so happy to see how vindictive his little "movement" is toward Hillary.

    Aren't most people on both sides just going about their lives, not feeling vindictive?  Most people just voted and moved on.  A few comments from Obama supporters surely don't reflect the millions who simply cast a ballot for him.

    Remember, conflict was, and still is, good for ratings (and blog viewings).

    Parent

    Please (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by frankly0 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:53:42 PM EST
    100K speaks for itself in terms of vindictiveness.

    Helping to retire the debt of a defeated opponent is SOP. And it is so precisely because helping to retire that debt is small potatoes next to the amount of money the contributors to the defeated opponent can ante up themselves for the winner.

    Only sheer vindictiveness would explain why Obama donors would refuse to put up a relatively small amount of money when their own candidate would in the end likely profit many times over for whatever contributions they put into retiring Clinton's debt.

    As Paul Krugman has observed, there's a venom in many Obama supporters that is truly special -- and it lives on fully even when their man has won.

    Parent

    Clinton DID ask for O&supporters contributions (3.00 / 3) (#137)
    by RosieScenario on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:23:13 PM EST
    The condescension being tossed my way is completely unwarranted, as well as impolite.  Nothing in my posts is factually incorrect.

    Senator Clinton DID ask for Obama and his supporters help in paying down her debt.  When emails went out, some of the responses were not at all favorable, as outlined in the NYTimes story.  

    nell began this subthread by complaining about those anonymous comments.  I simply pointed out the reality that those particular comments would not have been made, if Clinton had not requested that Obama supporters be solicited to clear her debt.

    The NYTimes story also states that the total debt is $20 million, and Clinton has not specified the amount she expects Obama's supporters to contribute so that she will be content.

    Neither Obama nor Clinton can instruct all of their followers how to behave.  Hence, Obama supporters resisting requests to contribute money to Clinton, and hence the Clinton supports resisting her requests to assist in electing Obama.

    Never fear, I won't attempt to share a chuckle with you folks again.  

    Parent

    Your tag line----it's GONE!!! (5.00 / 0) (#140)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:25:38 PM EST
    You are being (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:26:50 PM EST
    extremely cute with the passive voice, and I'm not surprised that no one wants to play along.

    Parent
    Bye (5.00 / 0) (#145)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:32:17 PM EST
    Is this a GBCW diary at TL, Rosie? Kewl! (5.00 / 2) (#193)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:22:42 AM EST
    For the 1000th time, (5.00 / 5) (#29)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:51:50 PM EST
    please, try to break out of low-information mode.  Do some research.  Read some stuff.

    It is quite usual for a candidate to pay off the debts of the losing candidate in a close election when they are in the same party.  If the Dems were the least bit serious about the Unity schtick, they'd go along with tradition -- it's hardly new.

    The less Hillary has to work down her campaign debt -- and mind, this is JUST her primary debt, her money for the general was significant but can't be applied here -- the more she can campaign for Obama.  Since the NYT had an article a few days ago about how her big dollar donors are balking at giving to him, you'd think someone at Obama's campaign would be grown up enough to realize it would be a big plus to have her working on her big money people for him.

    Finally, given the enormous self-promotion of their fundraising prowess, the paltry showing of the Obama campaign paying off her debt implies a distinct lack of 'Unity' and offers up pretty solid evidence that, as many said all along, 'Unity' only ever really meant 'Submission' in the land of Obama.

    Ok - second finally -- I'm dying for the most recent fundraising numbers because there are rumors that Clinton's donors knocked down half her debt during their big July 4 push.  From what I've read, the DNC has been barely able to raise little more than that in the last month.  Clinton, who's out of the race > the entire DNC.  Hum dee dee.

    Parent

    what the Obama supporters are failing (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:54:51 PM EST
    to understand is that Clinton has approx 40 mil of funds for the General Election that she CANNOT use to retire her vendor debts.  She can however use that money in the future for her next senate run OR she can ask her donors to re-direct those contributions to the Obama general election campaign.  And, I believe she has asked her donors to redirect those funds to Obama.  So, it seems to me they wold be getting over 2 to 1 for their money by helping her. She is asking for help with 12 mil in debt and NOT asking for the 11 mil she loaned to her campaign.  She has near 40 mil that coiuld be re-directed to Obama.

    Parent
    I don't think so (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by nell on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:04:46 PM EST
    I believe her request was either to redirect it to her Senate campaign in 2012 OR if the person did not specify that it go towards 2012, then it would automatically be refunded. She COULD ask them to redirect to Obama, but I can't imagine she would do that when his donors have been so pathetic about donating to her.

    Parent
    i don't believe she has to ask for it (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:10:37 PM EST
    to be re-directed to her 2012 senate campaign.  She can automatically use it for that.  And, I think i read that she has asked donors to re-direct to Obama.  Of course I think they could also re-direct to other candidates in other down ballot races as well.

    Parent
    ask (none / 0) (#204)
    by CHDmom on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:37:57 AM EST
    She has to ask if she can redirect it to her next campaign or if the donor wants the money refunded. (This is for the people that maxed out on their primary donations, that were asked if it can go to the GE, at least)

    Parent
    I think she asked her big money people (5.00 / 0) (#65)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:20:03 PM EST
    to redirect to Obama at that Mayflower thing a day or two before the U-event.  I'm too tired to look it up now, but Heidi Li always has all the facts on the money question.

    Parent
    yeah, i tried teh google, but didn't find much (5.00 / 0) (#75)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:25:20 PM EST
    except that i guess what she has for general is around 20 mil and she would have to ask her donors to redirect to her next senate campaign.  couldn't just automatically use it for the senate run

    Parent
    So it is okay for Clinton supporters (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:23:38 PM EST
    to contribute to Obama, but not the other way around?

    Parent
    Orange Fur....maybe Cindy Sheehan (5.00 / 0) (#3)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:25:48 PM EST
    winning Pelosi's seat this November.

    Looks like Hillary and her vendors (5.00 / 0) (#4)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:27:15 PM EST
    are going to have to eat most of the debt. Oh well, they knew the risks.

    As for the new iphone, well, it looks good and maybe it's in my future, but there's no way I'm standing in line all day to pay for the privilege of maybe getting one.

    so why should hillary turn over her (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:50:04 PM EST
    donors to obama and then ask them to contribute? at least as far as i know they aren't being quoted in the ny times regarding obama.

    i for one am sick and tired of seeing hillary still trashed! the meaness is way over the top and needs to stop.

    so in november the people who trashed hillary want out vote, then please act like it.

    Parent

    andgarden, the sentiment wasn't (5.00 / 0) (#31)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:53:09 PM EST
    meant for you. i can see how it might. it wasn't my intention. i find this ongoing bashing frustrating.

    Parent
    That's not a "Unity Now" (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:53:53 PM EST
    comment.

    Parent
    AFL Lifetime Achievement Award (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by NJDem on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:27:38 PM EST
    for Warren Beatty--McGovern is talking now and BC is coming up--Jack Nicolson too (he was at the Lakers game).

    The kids are cute as heck (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:30:08 PM EST
    Charming children, well-behaved but relaxed and self-confident.  Kudos to the Obamas.

    In fact, one of the very, very few things I like about the man is his obvious enjoyment of children, his own and other people's.  Jeanne Moos, I think it was, did a piece on political baby-kissing the other day, and I was honestly moved by the utter comfort with which he eagerly picked up and snuggled each baby handed to him, smiling very privately and directly into the infants' faces as if there were no other people around.  That's a really nice thing to see in a man particularly.

    If only it had something, anything, to do with presidential qualities.

    They sure are cute (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:59:49 PM EST
    As a father of a daughter myself, I can't help but pay close attention to the way Obama interacts with his kids, even though people who are serious about politics aren't supposed to care about that sort of thing!  He seems like a great dad to me.

    Here is my favorite picture of Obama.

    Parent

    FYI on Hillary's debt... (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by madamab on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:46:12 PM EST
    rumor has it that PUMAs were able to help retire half of it in one fundraising weekend (July 4th.) One more effort should take care of it all.

    So no worries about that, Senator Obama.

    Why Now (5.00 / 0) (#85)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:31:15 PM EST
    If they have been able to retire half the debt, it begs the question as to why they didn't donate the money to her when she needed it. There is still a max they can donate for the primary season. I'm sure Hillary would have been much more appreciative if they had done the donating when it may have helped win the nomination.

    I can see why Obama's supporters would have an issue donating money that will go to Mark Penn. Of course, I can also see why Clinton supporters would have an issue donating money that will go to Mark Penn.

    Parent

    I really doubt (5.00 / 5) (#86)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:34:11 PM EST
    that folks who have no problem with their money going to Robert Gibbs would have a strong objection to their money going to Mark Penn.

    Parent
    Robert Gibbs (none / 0) (#169)
    by RalphB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:55:37 PM EST
    that rotten scumbag, is one reason I started out against Obama before the campaign started.  Anyone who would hire him can have no ethics.


    Parent
    And I still think (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:35:45 PM EST
    Nobody knows why they don't like Mark Penn.

    They've just been told that cool people hate Mark Penn and they want to fit in.


    Parent

    What was his Value? (5.00 / 0) (#104)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:52:20 PM EST
    I have no issue with Mark Penn because as a Florida voter I donated to neither candidate. I only mentioned why donors supporting either of the candidates might object. When a major consultant, and his company, are still owed the vast majority of the debt from a losing campaign, it does make one wonder what his actual value amounted to.

    Parent
    Hmm, maybe winning the most votes ever (5.00 / 0) (#107)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:56:36 PM EST
    in a primary by any candidate, woman or man, in any party.

    Do keep in mind that much of his billing, as in any campaign (and not just in politics) is for actual costs incurred -- media time and space, printing, etc.

    Parent

    and don't forget his employees (5.00 / 3) (#130)
    by nycstray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:15:32 PM EST
    I find all this b*tching about her debt amusing seeing as she is helping him with 3 NY fundraisers this week. He wants her to help him raise close to a quarter billion dollars . . . . I doubt he can rely on his "grassroots" support and get there . . .

    Parent
    Well (2.00 / 1) (#127)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:12:16 PM EST
    If I was to look back I could find my own comments here predicting Hillary would win the popular vote and that would carry her to the nomination. Saying she did feels good but there are too many variables that show it not to be the case. In total votes they were essentially tied or he led slightly. Obama came out ahead with elected delegates and Supers.

    I have argued here against caucuses; argued for Florida and Michigan revotes; argued against Super Delegates, voted for Hillary, and withheld donating to anyone because of what I thought was a complete primary disaster, but I'm not a highly paid consultant whose gameplan ultimately failed.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:59:32 PM EST
    Presumably someone did polling for Obama and got paid for it, just like Mark Penn's company did for Clinton.

    I'm not aware that the services provided by Penn's company were in any way unusual for a political campaign, or that they are any different than the services provided to the Obama campaign by whoever he chose to dealt with.

    It's just that Clinton's polling expenses have a face on them while Obama's polling expenses go to some vendor none of us know or care about.  

    There is this visceral reaction that since Mark Penn supposedly sucked as a chief strategist, therefore his firm can't possibly be entitled to all that money.  But his firm wasn't providing the strategy, they were providing polling and other perfectly ordinary services.  There's no reason to assume that just because Hillary lost her polling must have been worthless.

    I think it would be completely normal for Penn to waive some of his firm's fee at this juncture, but I'm not sure that would be legal under the campaign finance laws.

    Parent

    Campaign finance laws is (none / 0) (#129)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:14:42 PM EST
    a good point.

    Parent
    Most of the "Mark Penn" money (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:37:38 PM EST
    isn't going to him personally, it's to his firm.  If I understand this right, his firm is the one billed for many media expenses, polling outfits, etc., not the campaign directly.  So paying the "Mark Penn" bill isn't about paying Penn himself.

    Parent
    I'm not saying he was perfect (none / 0) (#125)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:10:50 PM EST
    The level of hatred just has never been substantiated.

    One person suggested it's cause he's pudgy.


    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#136)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:23:00 PM EST
    That "cocaine" TV appearance was pretty darn odious.

    But on the whole it's just been a typical two minute hate.  Nothing he did approached that Robert Gibbs ad from 2004, for example.

    Parent

    I don't think so (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by standingup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:01:40 PM EST
    Penn has proved his incompetence.  He did not do well for Hillary as a pollster/consultant or whatever his title was in her campaign.  I might find a little respect for the man if he were to reduce his bill to compensate for the poor performance but that isn't likely to happen.  

    Parent
    Hillary almost won in the most (5.00 / 0) (#134)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:18:22 PM EST
    hotly contested primary race I've ever seen, and I've seen many.

    Why the absence of burning resentment against Edward's pollsters?  Richardson's?  Biden?  They lost by way more than Clinton did.  I bet no one can even name any of their polling/consultant people.

    And, as someone said above, he may not be able to waive his fees, since the value-in-kind of them count as campaign contributions.

    Parent

    Penn's enormous (5.00 / 0) (#191)
    by standingup on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:21:51 AM EST
    ego and arrogance has made him a big target.  I don't think any of the pollsters for the other candidates were running the campaigns as Penn was for Clinton.  

    Hillary should have won instead of ending up in the "almost won" category.  You can go back and see several areas where Penn's strategy missed the mark.  From Penn's lack of knowledge about the delegate apportionment to his idea to push Hillary as the inevitable, practically incumbent candidate, when the country was really looking for change.  Hillary probably could have pulled it out if she had fired Penn early on when it became evident they had problems.  But Penn underestimated Obama and missed the electorate's desire for a candidate who represented change.  

    Parent

    I'd go for a refund from Solis Doyle (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:30:38 AM EST
    first, after her incredible overspending and poor scheduling and more.  I see her as a significant reason for the problems in Wisconsin.  Note that after that, the campaign was managed by Maggie Williams -- and Clinton began her great winning streak, with more than 600,000 more votes than Obama.

    So Obama, after a good first six weeks of the primary season, hasn't had a good win since -- for the last five months, and despite outspending Clinton by as much as 5 to 1.

    So Penn got more votes for a lot less money.  And Obama ought to get a refund from Axelrove -- that could help compensate for the lack of funding from Clinton supporters, who have to help her since his supporters won't do as he asked and do so themselves.

    Parent

    Still think it's an excuse and not a reason. (none / 0) (#197)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:28:07 AM EST
    I mean really, the argument is that Obama supporters -- those that did not want Clinton to win -- are now holding it against her that Penn didn't actually help her win?

    That's pretty pretzely.  

    Parent

    I think you are twisting (5.00 / 0) (#210)
    by standingup on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:44:09 AM EST
    a few things yourself.  Those Obama supporters are being short sighted, especially those if the article is correct, who are claiming the money should be going to fight McCain and the Republicans.  They are missing the point of helping Clinton to retire her debt so that her donors will be more willing to contribute to help Obama defeat McCain.  

    But there are plenty of hard feelings with many within the Clinton campaign toward Penn for the mistakes he made.  Penn was known to be a source of controversy inside the campaign, creating a lot of unnecessary tension with the staff.  I think there are many who believe Penn is largely responsible for her loss.  Criticism of Penn has come from all circles, not just Obama's camp.      

    Parent

    Mark Penn was considered an anti (none / 0) (#175)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:59:15 PM EST
    union guy for some of the work he did in the past in that field.  I don't know the specifics but when I used to read DKos I saw that referred to a lot.

    Parent
    His firm (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by Steve M on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:04:31 AM EST
    has a division that represents management in connection with organizing disputes, or what we might call "union busting."

    As a pro-union guy myself, I certainly wasn't thrilled by this, although it's important to keep things in perspective.  We're talking about the largest PR firm in the entire world, they engage in a zillion activities.

    It's not just a gotcha though.  Apparently some of the major unions gave Hillary's campaign quite a bit of grief over it.

    Parent

    but didn't a majority of the union workers (none / 0) (#194)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:23:11 AM EST
    vote for her?

    Parent
    You know.... (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:25:08 AM EST
    I've probably gone quite over the edge here, but the idea of a bunch of Dkos groupies sitting comfortably on their butts tap tap tapping out their keyboard activism all day and making money off of rank hate, criticizing anyone for union-busting -- well I can't really say how I really feel about that but words like 'disingenuous' and 'smarmy' come to mind.

    The Mark Penn thing (and likely the union thing, is the point of the above) just sound very much like excuses to continue hating on Clinton rather than actual reasons not to unify.  Or absolute naivete -- this is what happens in elections. People work on your campaign.  You pay them.  There it is.

    Parent

    He didn't know how to (none / 0) (#121)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:09:44 PM EST
    Game a caucus, that's true.


    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 0) (#177)
    by standingup on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:02:38 AM EST
    and even worse, he didn't understand the proportional allocation of delegates either.  A winning strategy usually requires a basic knowledge of the rules.  

    Parent
    i admit it (5.00 / 2) (#188)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:18:10 AM EST
    they spent too much time listening to voters and not enough time  figuring out how to exploit stupid rules.

    Its a mistake no politician can afford to make.

    Parent

    Can you explain (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by standingup on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:30:29 AM EST
    how understanding that the Democratic party does not use the winner take all system the Republicans use is exploiting the rules?  How was Penn going to exploit the rules enough so that Hillary would take all 370 California delegates as he predicted?  

    The rules may be stupid but if you want to win, you might want to understand how your candidate gains the necessary delegates to win.  

    Parent

    I don't know (none / 0) (#207)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:41:17 AM EST

    You're the one who said if you want to win, ya gotta know the rules.  When a rule is stupid and undemocratic and you devise a strategy that takes advantage of that unfairness, I call that exploiting the rules.

    Parent

    You don't even attempt (5.00 / 1) (#219)
    by standingup on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:55:56 AM EST
    to be reasonable.  It's a shame because it isn't for a lack of intelligence.

    As aides looked over the campaign calendar, chief strategist Mark Penn confidently predicted that an early win in California would put her over the top because she would pick up all the state's 370 delegates. It sounded smart, but as every high school civics student now knows, Penn was wrong: Democrats, unlike the Republicans, apportion their delegates according to vote totals, rather than allowing any state to award them winner-take-all. Sitting nearby, veteran Democratic insider Harold M. Ickes, who had helped write those rules, was horrified -- and let Penn know it. "How can it possibly be," Ickes asked, "that the much vaunted chief strategist doesn't understand proportional allocation?" And yet the strategy remained the same, with the campaign making its bet on big-state victories. (Time)

    Penn's incompetence was a problem.  

    Parent

    Speaking for myself (5.00 / 6) (#101)
    by echinopsia on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:48:43 PM EST
    If they have been able to retire half the debt, it begs the question as to why they didn't donate the money to her when she needed it.

    I was giving as much as I could every month. Many of her supporters and contributors are probably in the same position - I can't afford to give $2300 in one donation. I was pacing myself and working from a budget. I haven't stopped donating, either.

    Remember, she IS the overwhelming favorite of the white working class. The people, you know, who liked her because they were not invisible to her, and because she promised to fight for them. The ones who are the hardest hit by this rotten economy.

    Parent

    Thank you echinopsia (3.50 / 2) (#110)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:58:45 PM EST
    Thank you for what is a very legitimate reply.

    I would be more careful by just saying "working class" though, as the added word can be viewed in less than nice ways if (like many here) I chose to pick your words apart ;)

    Parent

    If you say "working class" (5.00 / 3) (#147)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:35:31 PM EST
    the instant indignant response of the Obamanians is that it's not the whole working class, just the white ones.  So you can't win whichever way you put it.

    The reality is that black folks of all classes voted overwhelmingly for Obama.


    Parent

    Maybe (5.00 / 0) (#163)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:51:21 PM EST
    I do my best not to read between the lines and nitpick the words of others, but if I was to do it again...
    I would not use the term Obamanians or Obamabots anymore than I would say Clintonistas. or Billary. They, like you, are just supporters of their favorite candidate ;)

    Parent
    You are way overly sensitive (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:40:54 AM EST
    I used "Obamanians" in the same way I use "Clintonians."

    I NEVER use derogatory terms like "McSame" or "Rethugs" or "Obamabots."  So you're picking on the wrong person here and are making up things to object to, frankly.

    Parent

    You would be correct (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:50:18 AM EST
    If you use both like that and not the others, then obviously there could be no perceived issues at all. I stand corrected and wish all others could follow your lead.

    Parent
    Then why did you nitpick (none / 0) (#172)
    by RalphB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:57:19 PM EST
    those words, if you normally don't do it?  Go on, do it again.

    Parent
    Ralph (2.00 / 1) (#190)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:20:00 AM EST
    I was sexist yesterday for having no issue with the term nipping crows. I see that as no worse and no better than referring to the suffering white working class. It has become common to pick apart words of those we barely know because we don't like someone's candidate of choice.

    If I was to suggest sexism in this election at a site such as americablog I would get ridiculed, likewise if I was to suggest racism at a predominantly Hillary site.

    Word play and word selection with no harmful intent should be harmless. Don't be so sensitive. And there is no need to nitpick your words even in playful jest. You offered nothing of substance.

    Parent

    Offering nothing of substance (3.50 / 2) (#209)
    by RalphB on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:43:46 AM EST
    seems to be your own specialty.  You started with the sensitivity by threatening another poster for choice of words.  You'd do better keeping your own mouth shut.


    Parent
    If you chose to pick those words apart (4.00 / 3) (#162)
    by RalphB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:51:10 PM EST
    then you would be race-baiting without a cause.  Of course, there was a lot of that during the campaign.  

    Since it might not be true to say Hillary was the overwhelming favorite of just the 'working class'.  The 'working class' includes lots of those AA voters who went >90% for Obama.  echinopsia's statement at least has the advantage of being undeniably true.

    Frankly, if your view is that skewed, I don't know why anyone would care about it.


    Parent

    please drop the racism remarks (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:22:35 AM EST
    now. Thank you.

    Parent
    Please look at the comment I was (1.00 / 0) (#214)
    by RalphB on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:46:43 AM EST
    replying to, though it doesn't mention the unspeakable word, it's clearing a threat to call out someone for using the word white.

    Oh I forgot, that's OK now since you're an Obama blog.  I have called no one racist!  Just replying to someone who was alleging it.

    Parent

    This was my situation as well n/t (none / 0) (#198)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:29:45 AM EST
    When does the campaign (none / 0) (#53)
    by Nadai on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:12:58 PM EST
    release those numbers?  I've read the rumors on several of the PUMA/Hillary blogs, but I'd love to see the actual amount raised.  I'm guessing that since the big push was in July, it won't come out for another month or so.

    Parent
    I went looking for documentation (5.00 / 0) (#77)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:25:53 PM EST
    a little while ago.  The official FEC filings site does not have June out yet.  My guess is the 5 or so million number is coming from her campaign or some of the Hillraisers.

    site with FEC reports

    Parent

    Thanks for the link! (5.00 / 0) (#95)
    by Nadai on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:39:55 PM EST
    It looks like hers are usually filed around the 20th of each month, so another couple weeks for June's numbers and six weeks for July's.

    I hope the $5 million rumors are accurate.  I'd love to see another big push, maybe the first week of August but definitely before the convention.  It would be so nice for her to go to Denver debt free.

    Parent

    I'm scraping up what I can now (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:11:49 PM EST
    because according to Heidi Li's page, the big negotiations concerning Clinton's role at the convention are happening in July 15, and I'd love for her to be totally free of debt and un-beholden to Obama and his campaign going in to that.

    Although, it may be less pressing now.  If his campaign doesn't look like it can manage to help her for more than a 100 grand, and her supporters can cough up 1/2 her debt over a weekend, then Obama can't hold his power to reduce her debt over her head in the negotiations.

    Parent

    Good point (5.00 / 3) (#139)
    by Nadai on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:23:51 PM EST
    I get paid this Friday - time to tithe again.  :)

    I'd really rather Hillary's supporters paid off her debt instead of relying on Obama, anyway, even pretending he was reliable.  I want it crystal clear to everyone that she's got a power base independent of the DNC.

    Parent

    Did you know that Kos is withholding (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:46:22 PM EST
    his contribution to Obama over the FISA vote?
    According to NoQuarter, he is being raked over the coals by Kossacks for this.
    Of course, I won't go there to check, myself.

    link

    Yes, I'm sure Obama (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by madamab on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:50:13 PM EST
    is shaking in his shoes because Kos is withholding his $2300. L-O-Freaking-L.

    If he cared at all about FISA, Obama would be filibustering the way he said he would.

    Parent

    I'm with Kos on this (5.00 / 6) (#38)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:01:10 PM EST
    and haven't sent in my $2300 either.

    Parent
    Kos said it himself (4.83 / 6) (#34)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:59:17 PM EST
    I think someone here posted the quote a few days ago.

    After giving Obama thousands of dollars worth of free boosterism, holding back a couple of lousy grand was the most amazing example of a grown man holding his breath I've seen.

    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 4) (#73)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:24:55 PM EST
    it is a lot more amazing that commentors would accuse him of "undermining" the nominee by not donating the maximum.  As if we all have a moral duty to give $2300 to Obama.

    Parent
    Ha ha (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:30:53 PM EST
    I didn't see that part.  Ah well.  Broke it.  Own it.

    Parent
    Underminer. (4.80 / 5) (#106)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:54:56 PM EST
    $2300? You traitor.

    You can donate $4600--$2300 each for the primary and the general.

    In fact, you've mentioned your wife before. That should be $9200 between the two of you. Pony up or the end of Roe vs. Wade will be all your fault.

    Parent

    Can my 2-year old (5.00 / 4) (#113)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:01:04 PM EST
    also donate $4600?

    I'm told that $300 of our stimulus check is actually hers, and yet here we are spending it without asking her opinion.  Shameful parents, we are.

    Parent

    Puhleeze research; it's easy (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:03:05 PM EST
    with the search function here.  And sweeping generalizations, absolutes, always are a trap.  Not stepping in it, nuh uh.

    I suspect (5.00 / 5) (#79)
    by standingup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:27:45 PM EST
    RosieScenario is a reincarnation of a former banned commenter. There is one in particular who just can't seem to give up the temptation to create new accounts. The temperament seems quite familiar.

    Parent
    yes, her incarnation as a (5.00 / 4) (#88)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:34:33 PM EST
    PA housewive in a depressed area was particularly memorable. The way she went on and on about how she had so much better taste than the poor people around her reminds me of Rosie.

    Parent
    Rosie's comment (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:33:20 PM EST
    was deleted. It was baiting. Rosie is limited to ten comments a day in a 24 hour period.

    Parent
    Dear Jeralyn: (none / 0) (#184)
    by RosieScenario on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:11:28 AM EST
    I sincerely apologize for the trouble I have caused you.

    Thank you for the informative site.

    Best regards.

    Parent

    Hello? Is there a protester out there? (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by echinopsia on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:03:23 PM EST
    Here's a photo of the distance of the "protest zone" from the entrance to the Pepsi Center (and Dem delegates).

    Formatting Error! Reposted (5.00 / 0) (#51)
    by nell on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:12:14 PM EST
    Obama mocking Americans who don't speak two languages.

    First, yes, the video comes from a right wing source, but it is Obama talking and nothing else.

    Second, while I agree with his premise and believe that we should take bilingual education more seriously in this country and really resent the way immigrants have been treated (especially given that I am the child of immigrants), I do not like Obama's tone. I don't think it is ever a good idea for a presidential candidate to imply that he is ashamed of Americans and this does not help the elitist image people have of Obama and Democrats in general AT ALL...when you side with the French, you start to remind people a lot of John Kerry...

    http://tinyurl.com/5m6xmb

    Obama's support of vouchers (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:14:55 PM EST
    is not at all the way to help the majority of schools, public schools, be able to afford to expand foreign-language instruction.  

    Parent
    great minds! (5.00 / 0) (#61)
    by RalphB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:18:35 PM EST
    I posted the same link in #42.  Not a good idea to tell voters you're ashamed of Americans.


    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 0) (#148)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:35:51 PM EST
    I don't really feel he was mocking people.  But it's kind of an own goal, a free sound bite for the usual suspects to use against him.

    I am going to count my 2-year old daughter as bilingual because she seems to have picked up "si" from her 3-year old bilingual friend.

    Parent

    Is doublespeak the same thing as (5.00 / 0) (#151)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:40:47 PM EST
    bilingualism?

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 0) (#153)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:42:33 PM EST
    I always used to say: "As a lawyer, I speak three languages: English, Spanish, and BS.  But I can only write in one."

    Parent
    Your link isn't working... (4.00 / 1) (#132)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:16:48 PM EST
    ... for me. I tracked it down from Ralph B's link, though.

    The basic sentiment is uncontroversial. Of course we should learn other languages. But the implication is a little condescending, and unfortunately, it's not the first time that Obama has expressed a dim view of a large class of Americans at once.

    Also, there are lots of things we should all learn about--math, Shakespeare, American history, Renaissance music, chemical engineering, etc. Why should someone who spent her time educating herself about those things have to apologize for not having studied a foreign language?

    Parent

    Personally (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:41:35 PM EST
    while I am a big believer in a liberal education, I am far more concerned about kids who aren't learning their basic reading skills and end up falling behind their peers permanently.  That's the real crisis we face in education, not the luxury of learning two languages.

    A separate idea of mine, which I think Hillary might have stolen from me at some point in the primaries, is that we ought to have some sort of mandatory financial literacy instruction for high school kids.

    Parent

    Learning two languages isn't (5.00 / 0) (#158)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:46:59 PM EST
    a luxury---any more than teaching kids mathematical skills they may not use in their later lives.


    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:49:36 PM EST
    compared to reading it sure is.  Let's not try to be total latte-drinkers here.

    Parent
    I"m not at ALL. Learning (none / 0) (#164)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:52:06 PM EST
    a second language helps with the first.
    We have it so a$$ backwards in the country.
    Children learn the basics better when they have enrichments like second language, chess instruction, music.

    Parent
    I am a huge believer (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by Steve M on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:05:30 AM EST
    in music, sports, extracurriculars.

    We truly skimp in some of the most short-sighted ways in this country.

    Parent

    I think it was required when I (none / 0) (#179)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:03:56 AM EST
    was in school. But not until HS. It should be taught earlier.

    Parent
    Yes, exactly. Younger kids are better (none / 0) (#186)
    by MarkL on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:13:07 AM EST
    at languages. There's a primary school in NYC which is famous for its teaching successes. It is bilingual with Mandarin for all students.


    Parent
    I forgot about that school! (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:41:49 AM EST
    around me, most of the kids in the schools enter with at least 2 languages. I live in a very mixed area, so there isn't one predominant one except perhaps English/Spanish. Lots of cultural education available just by living here also. Much different from where I grew up in CA. The HS across the street from me has been breaking down into smaller schools within for the kids to get a better education. I'd say it's been going on for 5 or 6 yrs. I can't tell you how happy I was seeing a couple of classes heading off to the park with their drawing boards and supplies (I'm an artist). To see that art had been added back into their education meant things were really going in the right direction, from my view. This was a HS with a bad rep, to put it mildly. The transformation has been visible in the students. The elementary and middle schools have also been transforming around me. Teachers pay has almost doubled (I was SHOCKED at how little they were paid!) They have a lot more enrichment programs for the students and also offer programs for professionals who want to change careers into teaching. Bush has used a Harlem school to show how his NCLB is working, which REALLY ticks me off. I'd say credit goes to Bloomberg, Klein, and the teachers, parents and students along with many others here in NY/NYC.

    Parent
    Certainly. (5.00 / 0) (#159)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:49:32 PM EST
    There are many more pressing matters. My pet peeve is math. Nobody would happily say that "Oh, reading is too hard. I can't even read a newspaper." But people who are otherwise intelligent say things like, "I'm not a math person. I can't even balance a checkbook."

    Parent
    These are the same people who thought (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:55:50 PM EST
    it wasn't much of a difference when Bush fudged his economic numbers by $1 trillion in 2000.
    Hey, it was only ONE trillion.

    Parent
    Try saying "let me do it for you". (none / 0) (#166)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:53:03 PM EST
    Interestingly (none / 0) (#171)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:56:25 PM EST
    Do you know the story of Jacques Demers?

    Parent
    Heh, I would say a majority of (none / 0) (#176)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:01:46 AM EST
    school kids in my 'hood are at least bilingual, lol!~  Thankfully our schools have been improving with Bloomberg, so they're getting more of the education they need.

    Parent
    Question: was someone else originally (5.00 / 0) (#56)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:16:18 PM EST
    commenting when your tag line was written, or do you like abject self-deprecating irony?

    Tagline: (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:18:21 PM EST
    every time I read it, I skip the period.

    Parent
    I did that the first time. It makes more (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:19:43 PM EST
    sense that way.

    Parent
    Rosie, are you aware (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by echinopsia on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:20:04 PM EST
    of how unintentionally amusing your tagline is?

    It's not an insult---it's a statement of (5.00 / 0) (#71)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:24:10 PM EST
    fact. I don't like your attitude. Money wouldn't change that.

    It depends (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:26:26 PM EST
    You can't buy love.

    You can't buy unity.

    If the money was given by an Obama supporter who thought Clinton wasn't a race baiting corporate warmonger, and that person gave money because they respected Clinton and thought she was a great candidate, then it would help.

    In a way, Unity can be achieved even without giving money.


    FISA shock. (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by phat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:42:59 PM EST
    I've run across at least one instance (and will likely see more) where an Obama supporter is startled by his FISA decision.

    I'm not at all startled. Is anybody here startled by this?

    If I hadn't expected it, I think I'd be upset. I hate to say this but I'd have been more startled if he had filibustered. But I'm not upset because it's what I expected. Is that cynical?

    I am, however, startled about the rumors that Clinton will vote against the bill, pleasantly startled, mind you.


    Well (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:50:52 PM EST
    You will rarely lose money betting on a Democrat to roll over.

    I understand that some Obama supporters believed their candidate was different and would keep his promise to filibuster any bill containing telecom immunity.  I think it is relatively common for supporters to trust their candidate to keep his word.

    They thought Obama was different.  He doesn't seem to be.  Another bet won, I guess.

    Parent

    I wasn't (5.00 / 4) (#108)
    by Nadai on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:57:33 PM EST
    Obama's whole shtick during the primary was (vague) Hope, (undefined) Change, and Bipartisanship, a.k.a. kissing Republican a$$ - the last being the main reason I went with Hillary once Edwards dropped out.  He's said over and over that the Democratic Party needs to get past partisan rancor and work hand-in-hand with the Republicans.

    Me, I like partisan rancor, and I have no desire to touch a Republican's hand.  But partisanship requires holding some principles and deeming them worth fighting for, and I have yet to see a single thing Obama's willing to fight for, other than his own election.  Selling us all out to the telecoms/Bush administration is so much easier.

    Parent

    Link, please? (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by echinopsia on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:02:54 PM EST
    rumors that Clinton will vote against the bill

    This would be wonderful. But not surprising.

    Parent

    It was in one of the earlier threads (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by phat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:05:29 PM EST
    Here on talkleft.

    I'll try and find it for you.

    I don't expect it to happen.

    It would bolster my pride in being an alternate delegate for her in Denver if it happened.

    But I will not bet the farm on it.

    Boy would it feel good if she did it, though.

    Parent

    Got my robo call tonight in Penna (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:58:00 PM EST
    The questions regarded Dem/GOP, Voting for O,Mc, or Nader? Did anything Mc do this week change your mind of how you felt about him. The same question about O. And finally, which candidate do you believe will create the most change for the better. I voted for that Neither Guy. Heh.

    Heh (5.00 / 0) (#141)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:25:39 PM EST
    All day long I have been telling people about McCain's awesome plan to balance the budget in four years by winning the war in Iraq and using the savings for deficit reduction.  Everyone seems aghast at the complete stupidity, but hey, that's where Republican ideology takes you these days.

    Parent
    It's amazing... (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:53:39 PM EST
    ... that politicians can get away with saying that kind of thing. The culture of reporting is such that they can't write things like "John McCain presented a laughably implausible economic plan today that no serious person thinks could ever balance the budget as he claims."

    But did Wesley Clark insult McCain's military service? Let the opinionating flow!

    Parent

    He stated the obvious (2.00 / 1) (#199)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:30:12 AM EST
    I think Wesley Clark stated the absolute truth, but what is actually said rarely maintains that form through the news cycle. Does getting shot down qualify him to be president? No, getting shot down doesn't qualify anyone for anything other than maybe worst pilot of the day. But try saying it that way and see how quickly you get bashed.

    The problem is if you have to wait until the next day to clarify your statement, you're in deep even without saying anything wrong. As soon as the interviewer said "it doesn't?" Clark should have been clarifying his opinion right there.

    Parent

    You do realize that Obama (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by RalphB on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:03:10 AM EST
    is going to use savings from ending the war in Iraq to pay for all his increased spending.  Oh and balance the budget  :-)  Since he's backing off his tax increases on the rich in tough economic times, there's no money there for all the "plans".

    Neither of them is anywhere near credible.


    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by Steve M on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:14:16 AM EST
    Obama isn't being as up-front about the need for tax increases as I'd like him to be, although maybe you still need to be coy about that sort of stuff.  Memo to Democrats:  Walter Mondale was going to lose regardless!

    Still, proposing ambitious programs you can't pay for is pretty standard stuff, compared to McCain's voodoo economics.  Let's keep in mind, as much as Obama's withdrawal plan is unlikely to happen, at least it has some dates and stuff on paper.  But McCain just assumes we'll win the war in short order, much like Gilligan might assume a boat.

    Parent

    Are you saying he's going to raise (none / 0) (#189)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:18:42 AM EST
    our taxes?

    Basically, he's not going to get us out of Iraq anytime soon, so if that fictional money was actually coming home to pay for his programs, that's out the window. That doesn't seem to leave much for him to get anything done . . .

    Parent

    Any (none / 0) (#202)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:35:27 AM EST
    political chat that includes Gilligan is good.

    That would put Gilligan's boat, McCain's war profits, and Reagan's trickle down economics in a similar class don't ya think?

    Sadly George Bush is in a class all his own.

    Parent

    Oh, good lord, Ralph -- really, he said that? (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:44:25 AM EST
    No wonder the man took so long to pay off his student loans.  Does he understand reasons for our national debt?  Did no one else read Halberstram about the economic mess created by our (non)funding of the Viet Nam War?

    Now I've got to go find that Obama quote and send it to an economist friend who is for him, just to see a head explode on email.

    Parent

    More than once (5.00 / 1) (#218)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:54:06 AM EST
    "I'll end the war and use the (money amount here) to fund Blah, Blah, Blah. On healthcare, I think he had some plans to finance a bit more along Clinton's lines, but he had a cheat sheet for that one.

    Parent
    I heard it on CNN from his economic (none / 0) (#220)
    by RalphB on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:57:25 AM EST
    advisor, Furman I think is his name.  He also said something else I found interesting.  He said that "money for economic stimulus" shouldn't be paid for because that would defeat the purpose.  That would only make sense if there was a free lunch. :-)

    That non-funding of the Vietnam War, and deficit spending on NASA, is why JFK's tax cuts raised all boats, until the payments began to come due.  The GOP has used that time as their proof for "tax cuts increase revenues" ever since.  Always been a crock.

    Parent

    We're getting some interesting (none / 0) (#183)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:06:37 AM EST
    parallels with the 2 candidates . . .

    Parent
    Hmm... (none / 0) (#123)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:10:07 PM EST
    What do you think they were looking for?

    Parent
    Kitties? (none / 0) (#135)
    by nycstray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:22:43 PM EST
    Obama's Little Lottery Illegal (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by facta non verba on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:46:23 PM EST
    They have had to change the rules on their donate $5 or more and win a trip to Denver contest.

    Obama's Fundraising Lottery Illegal in Some States

    when Hillary ran contests (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:55:36 PM EST
    like win two tickets to fly somewhere and have lunch or dinner with her, there was always a statement that donations weren't required to enter the contest and she provided a link to enter without contributing. I entered a few times using the free link.

    Maybe it's the same law that requires companies to say "no purchase necessary to enter."

    Parent

    ...all the best laid plans of (none / 0) (#173)
    by zfran on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:58:14 PM EST
    mice and men.....

    Parent
    She's just wonky like that ;) (none / 0) (#185)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:11:28 AM EST
    I've always seen that wherever (none / 0) (#205)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:37:59 AM EST
    I've lived.  Maybe it's a federal law?  Although lottery type laws are usually state based.

    I'd guess Obama's contest will have a similar provision.  Usually when big companies have contests they have that line but the 'no payment necessary' option means sending them an exact-sized postcard or something which most folks wouldn't bother with.

    Parent

    Not sure if it's a fed law (none / 0) (#215)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:50:00 AM EST
    but whenever I've designed promotions, that was always included. Didn't matter if it was regional or national.

    I think between fed and state laws, you need to be very open. And if you are doing a lottery/auction type of deal on the National level, you do need to know state laws. For instance, charity fundraisers can't auction off puppies in NYS according to the state AG law. They don't fall under livestock. But you can in other states*. There's all kinds of little laws out there!

    * Learned this one from working with shelters and rescues. Charities will auction them because a PB puppy brings in dollars . . .

    Parent

    Well, Clinton is a lawyer, so (none / 0) (#213)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:46:15 AM EST
    she would know that law.  Heck, I'm not a lawyer, and I know that law.

    Maybe law profs don't know that law.

    Parent

    Dodd had to rescind offer of tickets to some sport (none / 0) (#181)
    by jawbone on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:05:16 AM EST
    event--with donation. Can't recall why he didn't go with the no donation required. Surprised Obama's camp didn't know about this.

    Now, if Obama had read blogs he would have known!

    Parent

    I hope this isn't inappropriate---I'm just (4.00 / 1) (#196)
    by MarkL on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:26:58 AM EST
    offering it for amusement.
    Someone at NoQuarter has decided that the reason Obama won't produce his real Birth Certificate is that is lists his race as white.
    Yup, that must be it.

    Could someone explain how paying (2.66 / 3) (#54)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:13:48 PM EST
    off Hillary's debts would help unity?  It seems that:
    1)    The debts are extraordinarily large, unlike previous campaign debts.
    2)    Some Obama supporters would donate, but others would still criticize where the money's going (Mark Penn) and why debt was accumulated late in the primary.
    3)    Formation of PUMA groups make unity seem less likely now.
    4)    The continued attention on the conflict and the publication of the worst of the worst opinions on the blogs would be bigger news and get more attention than the donations.
    5)    Criticisms of Obama's policies, and lack of policies, movement to the right and outreach to Republicans are all reasons for not voting for Obama.

    Why would the paying off of the debt by Obama supporters change any of the above five reasons for Hillary supporters to not vote for Obama?  If his supporters coughed up the cash, would you change your opinion of him, or would he still lose the vote of a large proportion of Democrats?


    Because it's the right thing to do. (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by echinopsia on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:18:30 PM EST
    It should have nothing to do with what he expects to get from it.

    Parent
    If they're like you, the answer is no. (5.00 / 3) (#62)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:19:04 PM EST
    I hope that helps.

    Parent
    Money in and of itself (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:20:00 PM EST
    Doesn't really cut it, no.

    But if the Obama movement suddenly became something it wasn't and could see that Clinton staying in the race helped Obama, then who knows?

    Just giving money for unity for unity's sake won't cut it, no.

    Parent

    Edgar, that was brilliant (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by cpa1 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:35:45 PM EST
    seriously.  Many of us despise the Obama movement and just might not show up because we hate them and him.  

    However, we might change our feelings about those hateful _____s if they would become less hateful and realize all the class that Hillary showed and all the restraint she applied in not exposing Obama for the liar he is.  If they don't then I hope Hillary tells Obama to F off and wait for 2012.

    I really don't think Obama is going to win and jlvngstn is going to give Talk Left $100 for me and a $100 for him.  I don't want McCain to win but if he does at least I'll get some pleasure in the misery of the Obamorons, shaudenfraude.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 5) (#81)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:28:29 PM EST
    Among other things, it means that Hillary's fundraisers are motivated and have the free time to put their fundraising skills to work for Obama, instead of doing nothing but working on paying off Hillary's debt.

    If folks on the Obama side decide that Hillary's supporters are unreachable and there's no point in trying to work for their votes, then it's certainly going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Parent

    All these questions have been discussed at (5.00 / 0) (#89)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:35:06 PM EST
    length on this site.  I will not quite say they sound like straight up concern-trolling, but they are close.  Maybe make a tiny effort to do a bit of reviewing and then come back with real questions.

    Otherwise, you seem to be just trying to provoke something.

    Just imo. Y'alls mmv.

    Parent

    RE: MyMindLeft.....per Jeralyn on another (none / 0) (#100)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:44:57 PM EST
    post:

    thread cleaned (4.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:04:31 PM PST

    this is the third one today. My Left Mind is becoming a chatterer and a shill for Obama. Please limit yourself to 10 comments in a 24 hour period.

    Parent

    maybe Obama supporters (5.00 / 3) (#93)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:37:18 PM EST
    donating to Clinton and stopping the Clinton trashing comments they continue to spew would be a good start toward unity.  It certainly wouldn't hurt.  And, the continued trashing doesn't help.  but to address your list

    1.  everything about this season was extraordinarily large.  There isn't a past campaign that you can really compare this one to.

    2. debt was accumulated late in the campaign because despite what Obama supporters and pundits constantly said, Clinton did still have a chance to win the support of the super dels.

    3. if the Obama supporters would STOP the bashing there wouldn't be any worst of the worst to report, would there.  The Obama supporters can't seem to wrap their brains around the fact that they want Clinton supporters to vote for Obama.  It's not the other way around.  They need to do the reaching out, they need to be nice to Clinton supporters.  We have votes they want.  They don't have anything we want.


    Parent
    Point by point... (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by Jackson Hunter on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:40:37 PM EST
    1.  They campaigned in all 50 states in an historically close primary season, both sides broke spending records, so that point is irrelevant.  If the reversed had happened, I would support paying off Obama's debt, it is both traditional and wise.  BTW, he needs her votes.

    2.  They can grumble all they want, but we are being told that we are McCain supporters if we don't mutely fall in line.  If they want unity, they may not get everything that they want and they may have to do things deep down they don't want to do, that is what compromise is all about.  BTW, he needs her votes.

    3.  His staff, web associates and media men ran a very hardcore campaign against Hilary.  Olbermann spent 10 minutes of air time claiming she wanted him killed!  They kept saying their tactics were fair, and that "politics ain't bean bag."  Now we are all supposed to forgive and forget being called the names we were.  He should have thought about Unity when he was so determined to win at any cost.  And oh yeah, BTW, he needs her votes.

    4.  This point is less clear (I don't mean that as a slam) but the MSM never mentions blogs except to condemn them as the rightful threat they are to them in the future, but not quite yet.  People bloviating on blogs will have little impact on the race overall, we are not nearly as important as we think we are in the Blogosphere.  Most people blog about their pets and other fun things, most blogs are not political at all.  Plus, as always, he needs her votes.

    5.  True enough, of course it won't solve all of our problems with him, but mending this breach will be a slow step by step process and I know that I can be converted to him if he starts to show some grace, and especially if he picks Hilary as his running mate.  He still does have a (small) chance for my vote, I sometimes get goaded into anger and say the word never, but he does have the chance for it.  He and his supporters need to quit taking victory laps and pretending that they have already won the Presidency and quit taking votes like mine for granted, it is a serious mistake.  I don't HAVE to vote for President you know, I can leave it blank as the default position is NOT voting for McCain, but voting 3rd party or not at all.  Oh, and big surprise coming here, BTW, he needs her votes.

    He has to earn my vote, it is not given automatically, and he still can if he listens to the better angels of his nature instead of some of his more vocal supporters, who really are starting to embarrass him now.  (No, I'm not talking about you or even anyone who posts here, it's more what I hear in the M$M.)

    IMHO at least.

    Jackson

    Parent

    I think it might (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by standingup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:50:07 PM EST
    be a way that will lead to some Hillary supporters finding it possible to vote for Obama.  I don't believe it would work with every holdout.  

    More important to Obama is the way this could benefit his fundraising.  Doesn't he need the backing of her larger donors who have maxed out their contributions to her campaign?  

    Why can't his maxed out donors see a donation to help Hillary retire her debt as another way of contributing to Obama if it helps to grease the wheels for her maxed out donors to write checks to him?  This is really such a simple concept yet it appears of his donors are being rather short sighted.

    Parent

    The short answer to the question (4.33 / 6) (#98)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:43:53 PM EST
    you've asked - how does paying off Hillary's debts help unity? - is that it says "Good fight, no hard feelings, let's join together to win back the White House."

    As for your other points:

    1)    The debts are extraordinarily large, unlike previous campaign debts.

    Previous campaign debts were smaller because running for office didn't cost as much as it does today.

    2)    Some Obama supporters would donate, but others would still criticize where the money's going (Mark Penn) and why debt was accumulated late in the primary.

    I have the same objection to the government funding faith-based programs: the more money the government gives them, the more of their own money they can use to prosyletize.

    3)    Formation of PUMA groups make unity seem less likely now.

    These kinds of groups were formed because people were offended at being instructed to unify when the party had failed to listen to anything other than the sound crisp $100 bills make when they are being counted.

    4)    The continued attention on the conflict and the publication of the worst of the worst opinions on the blogs would be bigger news and get more attention than the donations.

    Sorry, I don't follow you on this one.

    5)    Criticisms of Obama's policies, and lack of policies, movement to the right and outreach to Republicans are all reasons for not voting for Obama.

    Here's my 2 cents: each person's vote is his or hers, and the reasons for voting or not voting or how to cast that vote are not for others to judge.  People have been known to not vote for someone because they just didn't "like" them - is that a silly reason?  Not to the person who makes the decision.

    For me, I no longer see the point of voting for someone just because he or she is a Democrat.  There's got to be more, and it has to measure up to MY standards; this lesser-of-two-evils thing is a crock.  

    It's time our votes were not taken for granted.

    Parent

    Jeralyn. Ihope I didn't (none / 0) (#7)
    by mrjerbub on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:31:48 PM EST
    make you mad for asking about the legality of raffleing off tickets to see Barry do his thing at Invesco. I really didn't know the answer. I read it on the internets, I figger'd it was true. Sorry.

    Yikes! (none / 0) (#20)
    by mrjerbub on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:46:00 PM EST
    The silence is deafening. <Gulp>

    Parent
    You're Safe (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:52:54 PM EST
    We were off topic with the thoughts on that matter, but it didn't get deleted so rest comfortably that it caused no problems.

    Parent
    Is calling him Barry considered an insult? (none / 0) (#25)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:48:51 PM EST
    Just curious.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#47)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:10:24 PM EST
    Yes, calling Barack Barry will usually get you deleted if Jeralyn is at her keyboard

    Parent
    Really?!?!?! He called himself that (none / 0) (#68)
    by mrjerbub on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:21:50 PM EST
    for most of his life. I wasn't worried about that part. I was worried about calling into question the fact that he was going to raffle off tickets to "gaze upon his personna". I thought that might be the "straw", as it were. I don't disrespect him, I just don't trust him and I don't believe him. Live & learn, I guess. My biggest concern was making Jeralyn angry. Her I respect & trust.

    Parent
    You may not call him (none / 0) (#143)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:28:49 PM EST
    Barry since that is not how he is referred to and you mean it as an insult.

    Parent
    Hillraisers Refusing to Support Obama (none / 0) (#9)
    by fctchekr on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:33:08 PM EST
    You have to wonder why this didn't get a big NYTimes OP Ed?
    The disunity works both ways!

    Hillraiser Backlash

    "Sen. Barack Obama, the presumed Democratic presidential nominee, faces dissent from dozens of top fund-raisers and other supporters of former rival Sen. Hillary Clinton, who are angry over how she was treated during their bruising primary battle and are hesitating to back Sen. Obama.

    Some leading Clinton supporters are starting new Web sites or political action committees aimed at prodding Sen. Obama on issues or pressuring him to give Sen. Clinton a big role in the general-election campaign. People familiar with the matter say the effort involves dozens of the roughly 300 Clinton "Hillraisers," individuals who raised at least $100,000 ..."

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121539354782631403.html?mod=fpa_whatsnew...

    I'm glad to see that some people (5.00 / 5) (#44)
    by echinopsia on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:07:15 PM EST
    Some leading Clinton supporters are starting new Web sites or political action committees aimed at prodding Sen. Obama on issues

    have the right idea about how to get Obama to pay attention to how actual Democrats feel about issues. Maybe withholding money is the only way to get his attention.

    Parent

    Agreed; Obi shd stand or fall on his own clay feet (5.00 / 3) (#118)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:06:39 PM EST
    It's time we put an end to Obama's ridiculous cover stories for his own failings.

    This ongoing schtick of Obama and his campaign running to hide behind Sen Clinton AKA The Clintons must be stopped once and for all.

    Enough of him complaining that Sen Clinton is 'just as bad' on this, that or the other when Obama's caught in another lie or flip flop. He didn't fraudulently foment CDS in the media based on being 'just as bad' but being better than every other pol in DC.

    Obama and his campaign continue with the bad habit of deriding Clinton AKA The Clintons (and/or supporters) as somehow "wrong" all the time, rather than address legitimate complaints about Obama's latest shortcoming, flip flop or lie.

    We don't need to "heal"; we need to know why the Obama campaign spends more resources promoting that laughable hooey instead of leading the charge to stop illegal warrantless government surveillance on citizens.

    We don't need to stop being "angry"; we need to demand why the Obama campaign keeps making horrendous gaffes and continually using the odious tactic of vilifying Sen. Clinton for deflection.

    Why doesn't the media apply simple logic? If Clinton supporters were classified as disposable and irrelevant weeks ago, WTF does it matter if we're healed, angry, stepping in line, donating blah blah blah?

    Obama has loads of new voters, oodles of donors and once he does the Unity Pony with the rad right, he's a lock.

    So why does his campaign spend so much time (and astro-trolling) on unneeded voters?

    Parent

    who is Obi? (1.00 / 1) (#161)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:49:55 PM EST
    If you mean Obama, please call him such. Obi is an insult, like Barry.

    Parent
    Love Apple, HATE AT&T (none / 0) (#11)
    by stefystef on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:37:04 PM EST
    I would love to get an iPhone, but I refuse to do business with AT&T.  I had them as a cellphone service provider way back and fought with them every month with crappy service and over-charges.

    They ripped me off for over $1,000.  AT&T will never get another dime from me as long as I live.  Sprint is the same.

    The iPhone is nice.  You should get one.  You deserve it ~thumbs up~

    I've refused to have anything to do with (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:08:15 PM EST
    AT&T since they yanked all charitable contributions to Planned Parenthood.  That was in 1991.

    And the Dems think I'm coming home to the sheepfold in November?  Good luck with that.  

    Maybe if I'm struck by the Unity bus and suffer total amnesia.  Uh oh, horrible thought.  Psst, madamab -- you won't let me vote for O if I'm run over by the Unity bus, will you?

    Parent

    Valhalla....NO DAMN WAY!! (none / 0) (#90)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:35:37 PM EST
    Whew! thanks, I got a bit panicky for a sec n/t (5.00 / 0) (#144)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:30:23 PM EST
    The NYT story... (none / 0) (#12)
    by Dawn Davenport on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:37:59 PM EST
    ...about Obama supporters' reluctance to help Hillary is a mirror story to the one published by the WSJ story yesterday, about Hillraisers being reluctant to give money to Obama.

    This paragraph was kind of surprising:

    Meanwhile, an analysis of campaign-finance records conducted for The Wall Street Journal by the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics shows that in May, when Sen. Obama was widely believed to have clinched the Democratic nomination, only one Hillraiser had switched allegiance to the Obama campaign. And while 115 individuals who had donated at least $1,000 to Sen. Clinton made their first donations to Sen. Obama, another 115 former Clinton backers made their first big donations to Sen. McCain.

    I know that Obama has spent most of the last month wooing big-ticket donors, as another NYT story mentioned last week, but I'll be really interested in seeing the June figures for fundraising once they're released.

    And ditto on his kids being cuties!

    Resolving the issue of the convention role (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:46:17 PM EST
    and recognition, as discussed in the story at the link -- and as has happened at conventions for the previous candidates in pants instead of pantsuits -- could go far for unity and get donors on board.

    Is Obama really afraid that the nomination might fall through?

    Parent

    oops, fctchekr beat me to it! (none / 0) (#15)
    by Dawn Davenport on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:40:06 PM EST
    great minds think alike. :)

    Parent
    Who cares about a phone that does (none / 0) (#16)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:40:11 PM EST
    so much? I don't.

    but good on you for donating to Hill. (none / 0) (#72)
    by MarkL on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:24:37 PM EST


    Question of grammar and meaning: When Obama wrote (none / 0) (#112)
    by jawbone on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:00:47 PM EST
    his now famous quote about the death penalty and child rapists, what do you think he meant? How do you read his list of crimes deserving of the death penalty? To me he lists two instances: 1) mass murderers and 2) rapists of children who then kill the child or children.  

    Now I realize Jeffrey Toobin is very smart, a lawyer, and far more well-versed in the law than I am, but my reading does not see three separate categories. He saw 1) mass murderes, 2) child rapists, and 3) child murderers. (I am assuming this is what he saw; however, I cannot be sure.) He then argued, highly persuasively to those in the MCM who wanted to excuse Obama's statement, that Obama had all along stated the death penalty should be extended to those who did not commit murders of their victims.

    (I found myself wondering, given Toobin's take, why rapists of adult or teenage males or females would not merit the same treatment as the rapists of children, but no one asked me. Probably the emotionalism quotient.)

    If the old-fashioned practice of separating each item in a series by a comma, including before the final "and" or other conjunctions, had been followed by Obama or his editors, we would have no questions here. It would be clear. As it is written, however, Toobin can make an argument for three separate crimes, albeit hanging his argument of a very slender nail. It can also be argued that Obama only meant two different heinous crimes, the mass murders and also raping and then killing of children.

    Since there are quite a few lawyers here, I'd appreciate how it would be read by those trained in the law. Plus, would appreciate just good ol' readers' takes, especially English majors'.

    Here are Obama's actual words on the death penalty:

    While the evidence tells me that the death penalty does little to deter crime, I believe there are some crimes--mass murder, the rape and murder of a child--so heinous that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment. On the other hand, the way capital cases were tried in Illinois at the time was so rife with error, questionable police tactics, racial bias, and shoddy lawyering, that 13 death row inmates had been exonerated.
    Source: The Audacity of Hope, by Barack Obama, p. 58 Oct 1, 2006

    What Obama Really Meant is...?


    Well (5.00 / 0) (#119)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:07:31 PM EST
    Your reading is obviously correct.

    Of course, nothing in that quote suggests that Obama was offering an exclusive list of crimes that warrant the death penalty, but just naming two examples of crimes that everyone would agree are extremely heinous.  But you don't seem to be arguing to the contrary.

    Parent

    Obama said child rape alone should result (5.00 / 0) (#154)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:43:05 PM EST
    in death penalty. I wrote it up here. The quote:

       When asked about Supreme Court ruling against the use of the death penalty in instances of child rape today at a news conference in Chicago, Obama answered, "I disagree with the decision. I have said repeatedly that I think that the death penalty should be applied in very narrow circumstances for most egregious of crimes. I think that the rape of a small child, six or eight years old is a heinous crime, and if a state makes a decision that under narrow, limited, well-defined circumstances, the death penalty is at least potentially applicable. That does not violate our constitution."

        He continued, "Had the Supreme Court said, `We want to constrain ability of states to do this to make sure that it's done in a careful and appropriate way,' that would've been one thing, but it basically had a blanket prohibition and I disagree with that decision."



    Parent
    More on Obama's death penalty (none / 0) (#155)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:45:13 PM EST
    views and record in Ill. here.

    Parent
    Thnx for the link--seems he wanted to extend death (none / 0) (#174)
    by jawbone on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:58:43 PM EST
    penalty to several different types of victims! My oh my. But those examples did all have a murdered victim, not what seems to be a new take, that raping a child could/should merit the death penalty.

    And, now, g'nite all!


    Parent

    Toobin seems to say that Obama said what he said (none / 0) (#165)
    by jawbone on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:52:11 PM EST
    after the recent SCOTUS ruling quite awhile ago and offers the Audacity of Hope as proof that Obama had not changed his stand on the issue, that he had always been in favor of extending the death penalty to cases without a murdered victim.

    I was trying to see if there was a way of reading the Audacity quote which met Toobin's take that there was no change. I did see a change. But, as another commenter noted, Obama was only giving examples of heinous crimes, so he may have had more in mind at the time of his writing his book.

    My take from your post on the decision is that Obama did make a departure from fairly settled law that the death penalty is applied when there is a death of a victim and wants to see it extended to other crimes.  IIRC, horse stealing was mentioned and, of course, it used to be a hanging offense in the Old West.

    Obama did not offer up his writing as a defense of his take on the SCOTUS decision; as you note he says that he has said repeatedly etc.  Afaik, Toobin is the one who pushed the Audacity quote into MCM discourse as a defense that Obama had not not flipped or changed or something.

    Parent

    I'm not impressed (5.00 / 2) (#217)
    by phat on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:52:46 AM EST
    with Obama's reasoning in relation to the death penalty.

    I'm not surprised he came to his conclusion, though. Cass Sunstein seems to be his guy on this. I'm not impressed by Sunstein, either, at least in the case of the death penalty.

    I think that any acceptance of the deterrence argument for the death penalty is at best problematic. At worst it's a rejection of Constitutional principles.

    Sunstein seems to think that deterrence should be considered, he hems and haws about this, of course.

    I know I'm not a "scholar" but any acceptance of the validity of any deterrence argument seems counter to Constitutional principle and, of course, accepted precedent.

    Obama seems to have even rejected the very foundation of death penalty precedent in his little statement, "evolving standards of decency" being especially important.

    This isn't the kind of thinking I expect from a candidate who claims being a law professor in his CV.

    But what do I know.

    Parent

    Not a lawyer (none / 0) (#124)
    by Nadai on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:10:50 PM EST
    but to me "there are some crimes--mass murder, the rape and murder of a child" clearly references only two categories.  If he'd meant three, he'd have said "mass murder, the rape or murder of a child".  Adding a comma after "rape" wouldn't change the meaning, it'd just be wrong, because "the rape" can't stand alone as a general category of crime like "mass murder" and "murder of a child" can.

    Parent
    Hillary's debt (none / 0) (#221)
    by delacarpa on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:46:10 AM EST
    just got smaller I heard through some source other than the big media outlets. I understand that her ardent supporters have contrubited nearly 6 million over the 4th. It is amazing that the media doesn't want anyone to know this. It is so shameful their tactics.

    Hillary's debt (none / 0) (#222)
    by diogenes on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:15:25 PM EST
    Wouldn't it be better for Hillary to use her one hundred million dollar fortune to pay down her own debt and let other donors give money to Democratic congressional candidates?