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Hillary Supporters Plan Two Days of Celebratory Events

Via the Denver Post, Hillary Clinton supporters will have two days of events celebrating her achievements.

  • Aug. 25: Clinton supporters will gather at Confluence Park
  • August 26: The Clinton parade march from 11:45 to 12:30pm, along the convention center parade route.
  • August 26: Afternoon and evening: Cheeseman Park

The organizers stress the events are intended to promote party unity. Also,

..... the events are meant to be positive, to acknowledge Clinton's achievements and to celebrate women's suffrage.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Oh noes (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by echinopsia on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 01:22:25 PM EST
    The events on Tuesday will overlap the Emily's List gala for Senator Clinton (and those other two women).

    Unless Hill is putting on boxing gloves (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by cawaltz on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 01:28:34 PM EST
    I'd not worry too much about missing that lovefest.

    Parent
    I think that three-some event will be great (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 01:31:25 PM EST
    People will get to see, first hand and upfront, how Hillary's presence dwarfs the other two combined.


    Parent
    Amen (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by americanincanada on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 01:35:05 PM EST
    Whoa. (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by oldpro on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:17:54 PM EST
    Watch the body language and facial expressions.

    The press will.

    Hillary will behave well as she always does.  The other two?  Don't hold your breath.

    Still, the MSM and the Oblogs will diss Hil no matter what she does or says.

    Parent

    Obama Golf Professional Open (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:23:30 PM EST
    will be played all day, and continue on if cover is needed over any convention antics.


    Parent
    You suppose they will make it a foursome (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 04:44:25 PM EST
    now that Oprah has announced she's coming to the convention?

    Maybe she is the Keynote - or the VP :)


    Parent

    Oprah (none / 0) (#74)
    by Amiss on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 02:14:18 AM EST
    has said that she will only attend the nite Obama gets the nomination.

    Parent
    I don't think so (none / 0) (#2)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 01:26:26 PM EST
    the Hillary, Michelle, Pelosi event is afterwards, at 2pm.

    Parent
    What other two women? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Radiowalla on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 06:33:45 PM EST
    I haven't gotten the memo yet.

    Parent
    A true Obama-neutral women's rally (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by BoGardiner on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:18:28 PM EST
    That's my dream.  No DNC unity agenda, no DISunity agenda, no agenda other than appreciation for HRC and a show of unity and strength for women's equal rights and respect.  With NO hand of the DNC or Obama in this.

    I want a women's rally that's primarily about women's strength and consciousness and making our power known to the Democrats, with HRC as symbolic leader, without making any statement about our fondness for the presumptive nominee.  It would not be show of disunity, or unity.  It would not be ABOUT the party at all.  It would be about WOMEN... WOMEN making the simple statement TO the party: We are strong, we expect to be heard and respected, you may not take us for granted.

    P.S. If you attend, there (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by oldpro on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:40:30 PM EST
    IS something you, or anyone, could do at women's rallies...

    Carry a sign, wear a sandwichboard or carry a clipboard to sign up pledges from the women and men in attendence.

    The message?

    PAY OFF HILLARY'S DEBT!  Send money now!

    It would be a strong message for her to be able to announce BEFORE or even during the convention that her debt is paid, without waiting for the Obamafans to come through.

    It is embarrassing that we have not yet met that obligation.  No reason for the Party to be worried about us if we don't show our muscle dollarwise.

    THAT is where the rubber meets the road these days. Not to dismiss the value of votes, of course.

    Parent

    In Berlin Obama supporters were busy (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by laurie on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 03:23:59 PM EST
    sifting the crowd to register American students abroad-it was the first thing they did.
    Pumas were out there too distributing leaflets ;-)

    Parent
    I will be there old pro and will push that idea (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by athyrio on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 04:17:39 PM EST
    and see if I can get some interest....Thanks for the idea....

    Parent
    They could find themselves being (none / 0) (#21)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:50:31 PM EST
    involuntary volunteers to the Guantanamo Prison Cell tour :)

    Parent
    Hey, how about what we women do (none / 0) (#41)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 05:23:56 PM EST
    when the world needs fixing and funding?

    How about the biggest bake sale and craft fair ever?  "Bake for Bucks, Craft for Clinton"!

    That's how many suffragists raised funds to win the vote.  And lots of other significant reforms -- such as veterans' hospitals.  Hmmm, because what was killing the most troops was unsanitary conditions, those fundraisers were called Sanitary Fairs.  But call this one that, and the media will think it's a tampon festival or something.

    How about a Sanitizing Fair to Clean Up the Democratic Party?  Sell anti-Prima Donna Brazile Air Freshener Sprays. :-)  

    Okay, a li'l weird?  Well, then, another way that suffragists raised funds for court battles to get what they won enforced, for pity's sake, was that they sold their jewelry.  How about a giant jewelry fair and auction?

    Oh, and I've got more.  Much more.  Wish I could be there. . . .

    Parent

    Sanity Fair (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by echinopsia on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 06:53:27 PM EST
    as in, superdelegates, please regain yours.

    We'll miss you, Cream. Send cupcakes.

    Parent

    Perfect! Now I may have to work (none / 0) (#53)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:22:40 PM EST
    "Sanity Fair" into one of my lectures on the homefront in the Civil War. :-)

    Now, hmmm, cupcakes.  Clinton cupcakes.  I'm having some fun with this, thinking about "cupcake" as one of those terms for women like, say, "sweetie."

    Hmmmm, "Sweetie Cupcakes" could raise some serious money.:-)

    Parent

    Sweets (none / 0) (#64)
    by nemo52 on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:11:01 PM EST
    for the Sweeties!

    Parent
    I don't think that's possible (5.00 / 5) (#25)
    by dianem on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 03:02:21 PM EST
    Any event supporting Clinton and/or women in politics in general is going to be spun as an anti-Obama event. It doesn't matter how careful the organizer's are to ensure that the focus is on women, many will criticize them for showing disunity and denying the Obama won the primary. I can't seem to hold a conversation about sexism during the primary without somebody jumping in to defend Obama and claim that the sexism was either a) not significant or b) acceptable because Clinton was the target. OR sometimes both.

    I so very much wish I could afford to go to the convention. I'd love to be a part of this. But there is no possible way.

    Parent

    Funny, I haven't been able to have a (5.00 / 7) (#28)
    by Valhalla on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 03:22:14 PM EST
    conversation about sexism that wasn't hijacked by shouts and cries of racism, as if sexism doesn't exist because racism does.

    Although points a) and b) have been prominently featured also.

    Parent

    They keep saying it's "not a contest" (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by dianem on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 05:46:55 PM EST
    I just want to know: If it's not a contest, then why can't we simply address both racism and sexism without comparing the importance of the two?

    Parent
    I sure hope Hillary calls for (none / 0) (#50)
    by hairspray on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:08:49 PM EST
    passage of the ERA.  The caucuses will stay, and why not.  The party bosses got what they wanted. They can't wiggle out of the ERA, however.

    Parent
    Tough. (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by oldpro on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 05:04:43 PM EST
    Let 'em spin it.

    One of the messages from Democrats this year, a carryover from the Dean campaign, is that "you can't trust Republicans with your money!"  That means that "Democrats pay their bills!"

    Ante up.

    Parent

    In the blather of campaign emails, I read that (none / 0) (#52)
    by Christy1947 on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:21:29 PM EST
    Rep. Shiela Jackson Lee suggested strongly to Hillary that in February or March, she give a speech on sexism that paralleled the Obama speech on racism, and that Clinton declined because in some manner she was wary of her ability to do that.

    I really wish Clinton had done that, because the way this has come down, instead of being in this year a nonpartisan issue to deal with a wrong done which must be corrected by whoever is the candidate, it has instead become an issue tied on a partisan basis to Clinton --not sexism in the courts or sexism which wilts the lives of working class women who need the better paying jobs but do the work and then don't get the pay. But the need to see sexism in everything that happened to her specifically, in preference to any other explanation. And the doing of it to her makes everything else illegitimate.

    It really needs to be that wider issue, since one cannot undo what has happened this year. Nobody can prevent PUMAs from doing whatever they want because they are not listening to anyone but themselves. But sexism is not an issue limited to Clinton or the PUMAS, or the past experiences of a lot of us, but an issue where we want the future to be different. This partisanship in the handling of the issue does not do that.

    But we all have to remember that this is not an 'owned' issue by any politician, and to think carefully about what is done this year, because in the next female candidacy, one of the first things that will come up, and not with fear but more likely with contempt and distrust, will be the way some of the extremists dealt this year, and whether the next female candidate will do in that year what the PUMAs did this year. Those of you who think a loss by O this year will open up 2012 for Hillary need to remember that, because it will be her and your words coming back on that occasion.

    Parent

    Go and look again. (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Christy1947 on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 12:29:25 PM EST
    I have heard them. I do not agree with them. Do you genuinely thing that I or anyone else should agree with them just because I understand the English words in the order used? And do you think I should assume their accuracy and good faith just because uttered?

    Two points.
       1. The notion that any comment negative of Hillary is a comment negative against all women is nonsense. All women are not running for office; she is and has a history  on which people hold differing opinions, and  she makes specific statements as to matters of the campaign for which others are entitled to hold her responsible. It sounds like you want a rule here that anyone who criticizes a female candidate is being a sexist, where making similar comments against a male is . . . what,. . . justice, retribution? And that the standard for all male candidates, but not females, in a political race is 110% courtesy and nothing at all negative at all times. Maybe for your dining room, but not for a national political campaign.
       2. The PUMA people are not criticizing Obama sensibly. They get torn apart when someone like David Schuler or Larry King interviews them. I have read and read on this post, and the manner of addressing O is one which might be suitable for the kid next door, but not for an experienced politician running a national campaign, a style of addressing the issues  and the candidates from which Hillary has been stunningly free of similar analysis.  How green he is, if you ignore his entire resume before the Senate and give Hillary credit for the entire Clinton administration. How flip floppy if he triangulates when you praise Clinton for being a politician who can work with others bipartisanly. How weak.How presumptuous and egotistical (compared to whom?) How ignorant. How . . . not American enough. How dishonest, how inconstant, how manipulative, etc etc etc. without ever subjecting Hillary to anything similar because it would be sexist - as if the comments were themselves not a sexist commentary which you could see if they were applied to her and not him. And making  consistently positive assumptions about her virtue in all matters, regardless of evidence cited to the contrary. You see the sexism against Hillary but not the wrongs done in the same bigotry category by her and them, and many other Clinton supporters not only on this site but in other places.
        It is this onesidedness, nasty personalization, and bitter vituperation  and after-the-fact historical revisionism about it which politicians will wonder will appear in another campaign the next time another female candidate is proposed. Do they want to take the chance on a candidate who, with her supporters or not, will do things oblivious to their collateral political consequences which will fall on others, will offend other important constituencies whose support for the general election is also mandatory and not optional, will adversely affect the campaign to come against the other party (as, for example, the Hillary clips now appearing in McCain ads, which she was warned about at the time and did anyway).  

    The DNC is a separate matter, but no better. the purpose of party rules is to provide a neutral field on which candidates may compete and to avoid damaging occurrences which will negatively affect ANY candidate of the party in the General Election. It appears that what you have trouble with is the rulings they made in issues in which you have a partisan interest. Mature politicals and people generally are aware that neutrally made rulings sometimes go against them without wrong being committed. That thought is not present in PUMA and similar. And the argument is fatally weakened when, assuming you and PUMA are right in saying Florida and Michigan should not be punished and Hillary should get all of the delegates she wants and a large chunk of 'uncommitted', your candidate agrees that the two will not count and says so in public and signs an agreement that she will not 'participate', not just 'campaign' in those primaries, and then, when it turns out she needs those states, pretends it never happens and attacks the DNC for undemocratic behavior. If the behavior was undemocratic, she should have said so at the time rather than agreeing with it publicly, and then changing her tune. Did anyone  sensible genuinely expect that after having made the ruling without objection by you or your candidate, the DNC should turn right around and say O NO, we were so wrong, when your candidate changed her tune. Same with the caucuses, which were OK untl she lost all but I think it was one of them, in February, and when her failure to organize in Texas and a lot of places threw her campaign off kilter. And then when the DNC tried to find ways to do do-overs, only one option was acceptable to your candidate, and it didn't happen in either place for reasons the DNC did not control, such as state legislatures and state statutes. The War against the DNC is not on grounds of corruption, else you would have insisted that no one who was a supporter of either candidate could sit on the Rules and ByLaws Committee, rather than having a situation in which your candidate was one short of an absolute majority without dispute by PUMA, and still  managed to lose on both states by substantial margins. It would have been worse had the first Michigan vote stood, but the Committee decided a 14-13 vote against your candidate was not strong enough although valid according to the rules. The radioactive attacks on Donna Brazile personally do not help, since it does appear that one of her sins to PUMA was personal disloyalty to the Clintons, although loyalty would not have been a fault, and one was gender disloyalty. The underlying PUMA issue is a belief that Hillary has never been wrong, not that the DNC is really, independently corrupt.  

    And it is not me narrowing the issue down to a sexism cartoon. Go back and read that last few months of posts on this very site, with a neutral eye. While this is a Clintonista site generally, and accepted by me as such, read the posts carefully and see if the essential attack is a character attack on speakers and  a use of gender bias for a partisan purpose, or is an attack you would consider fair if directed to Clinton on the same basis of underlying facts. Rep. Lee's proposal would have given, early on, an opportunity to make the gender bias issue a neutral issue, a bad course of conduct generally on which reasonable folk in our party did not differ,  rather than a partisan one, always directed to Clinton personally by all other folk in the party. But, that road not having been taken, it is for this campaign and has been used so blatantly foolishly and so broadly that it is discredited at least in part prospectively, unless the truly blatant appeared (and you are correct if you gather that I don't think O doing the Jay-Z brush, or saying Hillary was likeable enough after her remark about being found unlikeable, or his helping her with her chair at one of the debates, the way mothers teach well raised sons to do as basic courtesy, is not truly blatant.)

    You have also not taken into account the views of women who have worked hard for equality  and who do not agree with your views, as if they do not exist. As if there were only one route for handling gender bias in a campaign, the one you and Hillary took.  

    Parent

    Competent at thinking bad at computers. Sorry. (none / 0) (#95)
    by Christy1947 on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 02:45:40 PM EST
    Go and look again. (1.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Christy1947 on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 12:28:16 PM EST
    I have heard them. I do not agree with them. Do you genuinely thing that I or anyone else should agree with them just because I understand the English words in the order used? And do you think I should assume their accuracy and good faith just because uttered?

    Two points.
       1. The notion that any comment negative of Hillary is a comment negative against all women is nonsense. All women are not running for office; she is and has a history  on which people hold differing opinions, and  she makes specific statements as to matters of the campaign for which others are entitled to hold her responsible. It sounds like you want a rule here that anyone who criticizes a female candidate is being a sexist, where making similar comments against a male is . . . what,. . . justice, retribution? And that the standard for all male candidates, but not females, in a political race is 110% courtesy and nothing at all negative at all times. Maybe for your dining room, but not for a national political campaign.
       2. The PUMA people are not criticizing Obama sensibly. They get torn apart when someone like David Schuler or Larry King interviews them. I have read and read on this post, and the manner of addressing O is one which might be suitable for the kid next door, but not for an experienced politician running a national campaign, a style of addressing the issues  and the candidates from which Hillary has been stunningly free of similar analysis.  How green he is, if you ignore his entire resume before the Senate and give Hillary credit for the entire Clinton administration. How flip floppy if he triangulates when you praise Clinton for being a politician who can work with others bipartisanly. How weak. How ignorant. How . . . not American enough. How dishonest, how inconstant, how manipulative, etc etc etc. without ever subjecting Hillary to anything similar because it would be sexist - as if the comments were themselves not a sexist commentary which you could see if they were applied to her and not him. And making  consistently positive assumptions about her virtue in all matters, regardless of evidence cited to the contrary. You see the sexism against Hillary but not the wrongs done in the same bigotry category by her and them, and many other Clinton supporters not only on this site but in other places.
        It is this onesidedness, nasty personalization, and bitter vituperation  and after-the-fact historical revisionism about it which politicians will wonder will appear in another campaign the next time another female candidate is proposed. Do they want to take the chance on a candidate who, with her supporters or not, will do things oblivious to their collateral political consequences which will fall on others, will offend other important constituencies whose support for the general election is also mandatory and not optional, will adversely affect the campaign to come against the other party (as, for example, the Hillary clips now appearing in McCain ads, which she was warned about at the time and did anyway).  

    The DNC is a separate matter, but no better. the purpose of party rules is to provide a neutral field on which candidates may compete and to avoid damaging occurrences which will negatively affect ANY candidate of the party in the General Election. It appears that what you have trouble with is the rulings they made in issues in which you have a partisan interest. Mature politicals and people generally are aware that neutrally made rulings sometimes go against them without wrong being committed. That thought is not present in PUMA and similar. And the argument is fatally weakened when, assuming you and PUMA are right in saying Florida and Michigan should not be punished and Hillary should get all of the delegates she wants and a large chunk of 'uncommitted', your candidate agrees that the two will not count and says so in public and signs an agreement that she will not 'participate', not just 'campaign' in those primaries, and then, when it turns out she needs those states, pretends it never happens and attacks the DNC for undemocratic behavior. If the behavior was undemocratic, she should have said so at the time rather than agreeing with it publicly, and then changing her tune. Did anyone  sensible genuinely expect that after having made the ruling without objection by you or your candidate, the DNC should turn right around and say O NO, we were so wrong, when your candidate changed her tune. Same with the caucuses, which were OK untl she lost all but I think it was one of them, in February, and when her failure to organize in Texas and a lot of places threw her campaign off kilter. And then when the DNC tried to find ways to do do-overs, only one option was acceptable to your candidate, and it didn't happen in either place for reasons the DNC did not control, such as state legislatures and state statutes. The War against the DNC is not on grounds of corruption, else you would have insisted that no one who was a supporter of either candidate could sit on the Rules and ByLaws Committee, rather than having a situation in which your candidate was one short of an absolute majority without dispute by PUMA, and still  managed to lose on both states by substantial margins. It would have been worse had the first Michigan vote stood, but the Committee decided a 14-13 vote against your candidate was not strong enough although valid according to the rules. The radioactive attacks on Donna Brazile personally do not help, since it does appear that one of her sins to PUMA was personal disloyalty to the Clintons, although loyalty would not have been a fault, and one was gender disloyalty. The underlying PUMA issue is a belief that Hillary has never been wrong, not that the DNC is really, independently corrupt.  

    And it is not me narrowing the issue down to a sexism cartoon. Go back and read that last few months of posts on this very site, with a neutral eye. While this is a Clintonista site generally, and accepted by me as such, read the posts carefully and see if the essential attack is a character attack on speakers and  a use of gender bias for a partisan purpose, or is an attack you would consider fair if directed to Clinton on the same basis of underlying facts. Rep. Lee's proposal would have given, early on, an opportunity to make the gender bias issue a neutral issue, a bad course of conduct generally on which reasonable folk in our party did not differ,  rather than a partisan one, always directed to Clinton personally by all other folk in the party. But, that road not having been taken, it is for this campaign and has been used so blatantly foolishly and so broadly that it is discredited at least in part prospectively, unless the truly blatant appeared (and you are correct if you gather that I don't think O doing the Jay-Z brush, or saying Hillary was likeable enough after her remark about being found unlikeable, or his helping her with her chair at one of the debates, the way mothers teach well raised sons to do as basic courtesy, is not truly blatant.)

    You have also not taken into account the views of women who have worked hard for equality  and who do not agree with your views, as if they do not exist. As if there were only one route for handling gender bias in a campaign, the one you and Hillary took.  

    Parent

    Yes, yes (none / 0) (#58)
    by Nadai on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:02:01 PM EST
    Don't make a fuss, girls, because the boys won't like you if you do.  Like I haven't heard that before, and didn't it work out so well when I used to listen to that "advice".

    Parent
    Snide won't help (none / 0) (#80)
    by Christy1947 on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 11:30:12 AM EST
    I've practiced law thirty five years. I was passed over for partnership because a man had a family to support and I already had a husband to support me - said expressly. I was fired because having a first child was an expression of feminity but a second was disloyalty to the firm, said expressly. Don't give me that 'the boys won't like me' nonsense. They never have and I'm still here, no thanks to folks like you who live in stereotypes and not in the real world.

    If you think this is working out well, you are not paying attention to anyone but one candidate you like, and to your own personal identification with that candidate, which is OK for you but not for African Americans (who are racist if they do it) and young people (who are stupid.)

    Parent

    In Hillary's case, she is so strong in her (none / 0) (#62)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:06:51 PM EST
    belief that she needs to find optimistic and positive ways around her obstacles that I can see why she opted to prove herself the better candidate rather than say anything that would give the media something more to chew endlessly on.

    We all know hers would have been the Worst Speech Evah by Matthews, Olbermann, Cafferty, etc.

    Parent

    Was "Obliterate Iran" positive? (none / 0) (#81)
    by Christy1947 on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 11:35:49 AM EST
    Was "Obama is UnAmerican and undemocratic" for refusing to agree with her in April on Michigan and Florida. Was "Hard working Americans, white Americans"  positive. Was the Somali photo which she conceded a member of her staff release positive?  Was that RFK fiasco positive? Or are you just disregarding what she did that doesn't match your positive meme? Its one thing to put an interpretation on facts that you think favors your client, but another entirely to ignore the ones that you can't spin into something positive about her as if they never happened. Politicians in the real world cannot afford to do that, and what you are enabling here will affect everyone who is to come hereafter, negatively.

    Parent
    You have certainly bought into the (none / 0) (#85)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 01:13:13 PM EST
    between the lines meaning the press put on anything Clinton.

    The RFK fiasco really was a fiasco. If you've been practicing law for 35 years, you should well remember that day in June when the primaries were still underway. To even suggest HRC intended to wish an assassination on anyone is the height of ridiculous.

    You think it was easy for HRC to go through months of being screamed at by your candidate's supporters and the tainted media? There were days when it was clear that she didn't know what she was allowed to say.

    You'll notice now that she's out of the race, there seems to be no problem whatsoever with media or people using the demographic description of white working class.

    Parent

    Was It Easy For HRC? (none / 0) (#87)
    by daring grace on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 04:09:30 PM EST
    I don't think it's easy for anyone to run for president, nor do I think it should be, frankly.

    She faced some unfair treatment in the press, but she, perhaps better than any of her opponents was better equipped to handle it because, hey, what's new about that when your name is Hillary Clinton?

    Parent

    Sexism and misogyny are issues (none / 0) (#75)
    by laurie on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 04:00:50 AM EST
    which it may surprise you to know, are a lot bigger than this Presidential race.

    Trying to tie any mention of these topics to a somehow misguided partisan base, which will be met with "contempt and disgust" , and endanger any possible future nomination of a female candidate is simply to twist facts.

    The stench of misogyny which rose out of this Primary campaign was overwhelming, and in the end could not be ignored by many women.

    Add to that a nauseously sweet perfume of DNC corruption, election fixing, and caucus cheating and you will understand why Pumas feel they are fighting to restore FDR values to the Democratic Party.


    Parent

    See prior responses. FDR has nothing to (none / 0) (#84)
    by Christy1947 on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 12:41:23 PM EST
    do with this.

    The stench of other things which has also arisen from this campaign is also unmistakeable, but the problem here is that the only one you want to admit seeing is misogyny, to the exclusion of all else.

    I DO NOT understand PUMA's position as a legitimate one.

    The only election I am aware of where there has been a charge of fixing was Indiana, where a Clinton district and an Obama district struggled to report last, apparently to see if they could put their candidate over the top.

    the caucus fix claim which I am aware of, rather than a claim that all caucuses, especially those where Clinton did not organize at all, were inherently undemocratic and only primaries would do, is Texas, where the Clinton forces thought they controlled the apparatus and got overrun when a huge participation showed up. I am not aware that any protests they filed were allowed, even by a party machinery they controlled. Next?
    As to DNC corruption, see comments above in this string.

    It is neither corruption nor a fix when you refuse to recognize that your candidate lost, and can't explain how that managed to happen because of her virtue, rather than her organization. At this point, all PUMA has is sour grapes, and it wants everyone basically to say that the success of the winning candidate must be disregarded and overthrown because they smell a sourness that the rest of the party does not.

    A full conversation would also require discussions of other stenches, but this thread is about the original comment, which turned on misuse of feminism for political purposes, and the consequences of that.

    Parent

    Nice dream.... (none / 0) (#8)
    by oldpro on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:22:32 PM EST
    and I wish it were possible...but this is politics...Democratic Party politics at a Party convention.  That is reality and the framework within which all will operate.

    Let's keep that in mind.

    Parent

    Yep (5.00 / 5) (#11)
    by echinopsia on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:26:34 PM EST
    The Democratic Party is not about women's issues.

    I mean, after this primary, I knew that.

    Parent

    Reverse kryptonite (5.00 / 8) (#12)
    by sarahfdavis on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:28:03 PM EST
    The more they try to humiliate her, the more noble she becomes to me. They appear so puny in comparison. I had no idea who and what she was until I watched the pathetic events of the last 9 months. The story is far from over and I believe her day will come.

    Could we make a nice comfprtable spot (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by echinopsia on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:29:06 PM EST
    under teh bus for Charlie?

    Yup. (none / 0) (#22)
    by Fabian on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:54:26 PM EST
    We busunders are egalitarian.  Anyone who earns a place under the bus is welcome.  

    Parent
    Except Donna Brazile (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by Valhalla on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 03:24:01 PM EST
    we do discriminate against Evil.  She can get her own bus.

    Parent
    Oh, my. (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by oldpro on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:32:09 PM EST
    This will not pay dividends.

    Charlie is a 'don't get mad, get even' guy.  He won't forget this.

    I bet he plays that better than Obama does, (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:37:02 PM EST
    as well.

    Charlie has real friends in very high places. It never ceases to amaze me how match-happy the Obama camp is...bridges are burned all over this country.

    How effective can a President without alliances with people who have influence be?


    Parent

    Well, as they say.... (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by oldpro on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:47:21 PM EST
    No brains, no headaches.

    If elected to the presidency, we'll find out how savvy they are at 'not playing the old Washington game!'  That won't work on Charlie!

    And they'd best not send Jesse, Jr. to have a 'come to Jesus talk with him.'  Charlie will hand him his head.

    Parent

    Way to build a coalition! (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by Fabian on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:55:21 PM EST
    Reminds me of someone else...just can't remember who at the moment.

    Parent
    I'm beginning to believe (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by nycstray on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:36:41 PM EST
    they just don't do classy. {sigh}

    said the Obama camp.... (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:36:49 PM EST
    we already have over 90% of the black vote, we don't need you Charlie.....

    Foolish. (5.00 / 8) (#19)
    by oldpro on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:42:03 PM EST
    Charlie has the keys to the government bank account.

    Parent
    It's gone down to 88% this week (none / 0) (#32)
    by laurie on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 03:39:30 PM EST
    Wow. Overall that poll is (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by tree on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 03:58:14 PM EST
    not good news for Obama. Not so much for the minor decrease in black support, but for his failure to make any strides in getting the rest of the Dem base back. And even Obama supporters list his lack of experience as the most troubling aspect of Obama.

    Not surprisingly, Obama's policy positions trouble far fewer of his own backers, but worries about his personal abilities and experiences are just as widespread. Overall, 32% of Obama backers say this is what troubles them most about Obama. Among those who say they back Obama "only moderately" rather than strongly, fully 43% cite Obama's personal abilities and experiences as what troubles them most.

    McCain, on the other hand, seems to be making progress with his base.

     Thanks for the link.

    Parent

    Oh oh. Obama plays caucuses well (5.00 / 8) (#23)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:54:39 PM EST
    but maybe he doesn't play well with others in Congress.  Read, as it says, of Rangel's crucial role to be played if Obama wants to win his tax reform plan.  Not to mention if he wants to win, period.  There have been rumblings from the AA community already about whether Obama is going to be there for them on civil rights issues -- in part because some might be imperiled, paradoxically, by the election of an AA president.

    There's all that parsing and more to this, but the bottom line?  Do not tick off the people you just might need -- the people with their own sources of power who may not need the New Obama Dem Party.

    PUMA is not a movement to me (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by dianem on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 03:07:37 PM EST
    It's just a concept, and apparently Obama's team support's the concept. "Unity" to them is simply a word they use to try to convince Dems that they have to vote for Obama, not something that they actually have to work toward. A Clinton roll call and speech would be a token gesture toward unity, but it is the absolute minimum they can do. And I'm betting that it's all they will do. There is no way that Obama is going to swallow his pride and admit that he and Clinton nearly tied and that she ran a good campaign.

    One thing is for sure (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 03:14:14 PM EST
    the PUMAs seem to have a great deal more unity than the party they left does.


    Parent
    As we know.. (2.25 / 4) (#31)
    by Gobbluth on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 03:31:06 PM EST
    Hatred unites better than love ever will.

    Parent
    It's not hatred so (5.00 / 9) (#35)
    by sarahfdavis on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 03:53:25 PM EST
    stop the smear. It's deep respect for Senator Clinton and shock at the way their own party behaved.

    Parent
    Your comment appears to have only one (5.00 / 6) (#38)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 04:42:49 PM EST
    intent - to cause an argument.

    The PUMAs do not in any fashion push hatred. They are upset at the DNC, and they will not vote for Obama because he is not experienced or qualified enough for the job with the current state of affairs.

    Parent

    PUMA question (none / 0) (#49)
    by call me Ishmael on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:04:34 PM EST
    I just went to their website but it is unclear to me on one issue.  You say that
    they will not vote for Obama because he is not experienced or qualified enough for the job with the current state of affairs
    .  Does that mean that they prefer a third Bush administration (only more militaristic) to Obama given the current state of affairs?

    Parent
    No. (none / 0) (#51)
    by echinopsia on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:16:18 PM EST
    It means they prefer Hillary.

    Parent
    sorry I posted this below by mistake (none / 0) (#55)
    by call me Ishmael on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 08:23:29 PM EST
    but are they going to not vote even though it could cause a McCain victory?  That is the question not who their first choice would be between Clinton and Obama

    Parent
    What, you expect me to answer for (none / 0) (#56)
    by echinopsia on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 08:29:08 PM EST
    thousands of people?

    They'll do what they do. There are plenty of options.

    What do you care?

    Parent

    I'm (none / 0) (#57)
    by call me Ishmael on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 08:55:36 PM EST
    just trying to figure out the logic of the program.  They are asking for support and funds so it seems fair to wonder exactly what the position is.  

    Why does asking that seem to upset you?

    Parent

    She doesn't (none / 0) (#60)
    by Nadai on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:04:07 PM EST
    seem upset to me.  More like irritated that yet another Obama-ite can't be bothered to do his own research.  You apparently know where the PUMA blogs are.  Why don't you go read them if you want answers?

    Parent
    Thank you Nadai (none / 0) (#67)
    by echinopsia on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:05:32 PM EST
    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    Parent
    Not Hillary (none / 0) (#77)
    by OldCity on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 10:38:24 AM EST
    is a poor reason for voting "not Democrat".  It's short-sighted.

    I truly think that there's no appreciation for the fact that the PUMA movement will not be lauded, will not be seen as positive game changers.

    You continue to ask the other candidate to prove a negative and you brush off any attempt to be conciliatory.  So, there's no win/win for anyone.

    Worse, what you want will not come to pass.  HRC will not be the nominee.  So, you've got to decide which platform you'd rather see pushed by the Presidency.  I mean, honestly, if you're SO for women's rights, why in the world would you want a guy who won't even concede women's rights to equal pay, solely because he's not Obama?  How is that logical?

    I'll give you all an opportunity to jump up and down and tell me how sexist I am, but I'll tell you that I'm not.  I am a realist, though.  

    I won't debate the media sexism during the campaign, because I think it occurred.  But i don't support the contention that sexism was the root cause of her loss.  Yet, to even think that or voice that opinion earns one the brand of sexist.  Pointing to HRC's mismananagement of her campaign and her money is perceived as sexist.  She's alibied by those who say her campaign "betrayed" her; those folks conveniently forget that she was the sole executive power in that campaign and so, in every other environment, would be responsible for the results of that campaign.  

    HRC was supposed to win, and win huge.  The primary was supposed to be nothing but a formality.  So, her loss HAS to be attributable to more than sexism.  I don't see any acknowledgement that maybe Obama's message resonated with people.  Obviously, since it swayed so many people, it must have.  I'm confident that the vast majority of his voters weren't swayed by chauvinist impulses.  Those people made different choices than you...you're free to denigrate them, and you have, but they had the right to make those choices.

    The point I've been trying to make is that HRC's loss simply wasn't all about sexism, or the ordination of Obama by the DNC.  The pre-primary polling simply doesn't support that analysis.  To consider HRC's loss as a huge blow against women is to diminsh her ability to turn the race around and make it close.  She fixed her early errors; but paid the proce for early missteps.

    There comes a time when the vast majority of outside observers won't be sympathetic to your disappointment.  Everything that you rail against...the jaded media with their misogyny, the skewed view of intelligent women as whiny, etc...those are all going to be buttressed, not alleviated if you don't make some attempt at reconciliation.  You will succeed at marginalizing your movement, not the opposite.  

    You want the caucus rules re-written?  Agitate from inside.  Change the Rules committee function?  You want greater respect for women candidates?  Agitate from inside.  Those doors aren't closed to you...but I'm betting they will be if your efforts diminish the chances of the nominee.          

    Parent

    You are so utterly clueless (none / 0) (#93)
    by echinopsia on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 12:03:31 AM EST
    this does not even deserve a response.

    Parent
    Yes, I think a lot of Hillary supporters are going (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by laurie on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 03:45:12 PM EST
    to have a great deal of Genuine FUN in Denver.
    Much better than sitting at home knitting....
    Wish I could afford it.

    I hope Jeralyn is busily writing up a post (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 05:56:10 PM EST
    on all the idiotic punditry going on over Hillary's name being put into nomination today.

    Some things are predictable. (none / 0) (#44)
    by Fabian on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 06:04:06 PM EST
    Someone already wrote the "Hillary is just trying to undermine Obama's nomination!" diary at DK.  

    Parent
    They could have just recycled (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Valhalla on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 06:12:15 PM EST
    any one of a 1000 posts from the last 8 months for that one.

    Parent
    but (none / 0) (#54)
    by call me Ishmael on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 08:20:50 PM EST
    are they planning on not voting even though it could mean a McCain presidency?  That is the question.  Not who their first choice is.

    Not all PUMAs (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by misspeach2008 on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:07:14 PM EST
    plan to vote the same way in November. Some will leave the top of the ticket blank, some will do a write in, some will vote third party, and some will vote for John McCain. They are united in not giving their votes to Obama. Some PUMAs may have voted for him if Hillary had been chosen as VP, but it is unlikely that she will be. For most PUMAs it would not make a difference anyway. The end result may be that John McCain will win the election, but that is the consequence of the behavior of the DNC not the primary goal of the PUMAs. They are unwilling to compromise their personal integrity by voting for Obama. If Obama is to win this election, he will have to do it without them. He has always said that he could so he should have no problem.

    Parent
    Thank you (none / 0) (#65)
    by call me Ishmael on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:14:43 PM EST
    for the clarification.  That helps a lot.

    Parent
    Everything MissPeach wrote (none / 0) (#66)
    by echinopsia on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:03:58 PM EST
    May be easily found on the PUMA websites. Seems to me the followers of the "see my website" candidate could figure out that you can find information at another website.

    We're not supposed to talk about PUMA here.


    Parent

    first of all (none / 0) (#68)
    by call me Ishmael on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:11:13 PM EST
    I am not a "follower of the see my website" candidate. And as far as I could tell there wasn't information on the PUMA website about voting in November so I was curious about the prior post (I was hardly the one to introduce PUMA to the discussion).  Since I thought that two purposes of the comments section were to discuss things and find out information that you didn't know I thought that I would ask so I could figure out what the implications were and what to make of them.  I'm sorry that you seem to think that open thought is inappropriate.

    Parent
    Ishmael, sweetie (none / 0) (#70)
    by echinopsia on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:40:52 PM EST
    If you didn't find the information, you weren't looking very hard.

    So you're not an Obama supporter? That's a heckuvan impersonation you're doing.

    Parent

    asking questions (none / 0) (#71)
    by call me Ishmael on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 11:13:42 PM EST
    makes me an Obama supporter?  That is an interesting notion you have there

    Parent
    You apparently don't like McCain (none / 0) (#78)
    by echinopsia on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 11:02:11 AM EST
    and you are ignorant of what PUMAs want.

    By process of elimination, you're either an Obama supporter or third-party.

    Parent

    Not really (none / 0) (#79)
    by call me Ishmael on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 11:11:34 AM EST
    I am one of the people who feel betrayed by Edwards' risking of the Party for his ego (since I supported him on the issues).  I don't see a much of a difference between Clinton and Obama (they each bring different strengths and weaknesses to the table) but think they are both miles better than McCain.  As for the PUMA thing I am puzzled by the combination on their main page of saying that all democrats should join them but they are going to oppose an "illegitimate" nominee who many don't think is illegitimate.

    Sometimes there are more possibilities to consider.

    Parent

    There's no contradiction (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by echinopsia on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 04:25:48 PM EST
    in being a Democrat and believing Obama is an illegitimate nominee.

    Quite the contrary, in fact.

    Real Democrats believe in the sanctity of one person, one vote. Real Democrats don't like caucuses because they are undemocratic. Real Democrats are aware that awarding votes and delegates to a candidate from a state where his name did not appear on the ballot is corrupt and unfair. Real Democrats realize that awarding votes and delegates taken from another candidate is wrong. Real Democrats believe in playing by the rules, not making them up as you go along to favor the candidate preferred by those in power. Real Democrats don't condone sexism. Real Democrats don't disparage former Democratic presidents, and real Democrats don't call other Democrats racists.

    I'd say the PUMAs are pretty darn Democratic.

    Parent

    sigh (none / 0) (#89)
    by call me Ishmael on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 05:14:01 PM EST
    I was merely pointing out that it was one thing to say that you were representing all Democrats and then calling a candidate that a lot of Democrats do consider legitimate "illegitimate."  It doesn't strike me as a way to build a political movement to change the party

    I also didn't realize that it was undemocratic to criticize a former president.

    Or to disagree about caucuses.

    Sure you can argue whether something is racist.  But are you really saying that a Democrat can never say that another Democrat is racist?

    Playing by the rules? Weren't the caucuses the rules for this campaign?

    Those in Power?  I suppose that the fact that both of the Clintons have been major powers in the Democratic party doesn't count?

    And I didn't realize that "real" Democrats felt the need to tell other Democrats what it was permissible to think about the organization of party rules in order to be "real" Democrats.

    Nor did I realize that "real" Democrats took a position that would clearly increase the chances of a "real" Republican getting elected to the Presidency.

    Parent

    Better a ral Republican (none / 0) (#90)
    by echinopsia on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 06:19:05 PM EST
    than a faux Democrat.

    Parent
    that's (none / 0) (#91)
    by call me Ishmael on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 06:43:29 PM EST
    what they said in 2000.  good luck.

    Parent
    WTF? Nobody said that in 2000. (none / 0) (#92)
    by echinopsia on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 12:00:36 AM EST
    of course (none / 0) (#94)
    by call me Ishmael on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 11:00:40 AM EST
    they did.  There were plenty of people who voted for Nader because they insisted there was no difference between the two candidates and it was better not to mess up their consciences by voting for Gore.  Just as the Kennedy dems thought that Carter had betrayed the Party.  I won't even go back to 1968.  They all worked out so well for the country.

    Parent
    Gore (none / 0) (#96)
    by echinopsia on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 02:54:45 PM EST
    was not an illegitimate nominee. Obama is.

    Parent
    stating opinion (none / 0) (#97)
    by call me Ishmael on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 03:37:48 PM EST
    as fact doesn't really win any arguments.  

    Parent
    Then why are you (none / 0) (#98)
    by echinopsia on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 09:16:55 PM EST
    using your opinion as fact in this one?

    Parent
    you're (none / 0) (#99)
    by call me Ishmael on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:45:33 AM EST
    the one asserting that your opinion of Obama's "illegitimacy" is a fact.  That's what I am objecting to.

    Parent
    Fine (none / 0) (#100)
    by echinopsia on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:56:26 PM EST
    and I object to your asserting his legitimacy as fact.

    We're even.

    Parent

    Repeatedly posting the same ? is blogclogging (none / 0) (#59)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:03:48 PM EST
    and that's against the rules here.

    So is trying to incite arguments, you might want to find a different approach.

    No one here is promoting a McCain presidency. What the DNC has done was wrong, and against the democratic beliefs of many people in this country. They have a right, really they do, a democratic right, to show their protest for that.

    Parent

    as I said above (none / 0) (#61)
    by call me Ishmael on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:06:50 PM EST
    I had put this one in by hitting the wrong button (I meant to reply to a specific one) and apologized above.  I am still just trying to get a clarification of the post about PUMA being unwilling to vote for Obama.  I don't have any problem with protesting.  I am just trying to understand exactly what their position is.

    Parent