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Expanding Health Care Funding Is Good, But It Is Not Reform

Picking on Ezra again - Ezra writes:

I referenced it an earlier post, but this paper from Families USA outlining the 10 reasons to support health-care reform is a must-read. The public plan is one of the entries. But only one of them. And not the one that would help the most people.

Certainly spending more money on health care, particularly for the less well off, is a good thing. No one would or could argue otherwise. But let's not pretend that is health care reform.

In the end, if there can be no public option, why not instead strip out the "reform" part of "the bills," as the paper Ezra extolls refers to them, and just leave in the extra funding. In short, no public option, then no mandates. Just the extra money. For now.

Speaking for me only

< Wednesday Morning Open Thread | Is Kennedy The Obstacle To The Public Option? >
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  • Display: Sort:
    IN practice, that's probably true (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:32:42 AM EST
    But theoretically, it could be made to work (that's the Swiss model).

    I don't think Congress can stomach the rate caps and regulations that would be required, though. So, public option or nothing.

    Yep (none / 0) (#15)
    by MO Blue on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:07:44 AM EST
    The Swiss have a highly regulated insurance system. No chance at all IMO that Congress would regulate the industry like the Swiss do.

    Parent
    Even if by some miracle they did (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:33:41 AM EST
    pass regulatory legislation, they'd undo it quickly and quietly over time.  That's the main reason why I no longer believe that regulating the private insurers would have any lasting impact on relieving our healthcare problems.

    Parent
    The money will run out (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:38:21 AM EST
    The ballooning costs of Medicare are well-documented.  Less well-documented is the fact that private-sector health care costs are growing at an even faster rate.  Health care will literally bankrupt the country if we don't get the costs under control.

    On the other hand, it does gall me to see the Republicans acting like they're the party that wants to protect Medicare from those mean, tight-fisted Democrats.  Perhaps someone should put a proposal on the table to fully fund Medicare for the next decade without any cost-control measures, just to see how committed Republicans are to protecting the program that Ronald Reagan derided as "socialized medicine."

    Medicare is now untouchable (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:39:18 AM EST
    Make expanded Mediaid funding the same and then see what happens.

    Parent
    That's what the (none / 0) (#6)
    by dk on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:43:56 AM EST
    "public option" currently on the table is, right?  Expanded medicaid?  Because only the poor and unemployed will have the option, and firewalls are set up to prevent anyone else from having it.

    Parent
    If the public option exists (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:58:28 AM EST
    it can be expanded.  Firewalls be d*mned.  As long as we have the public option, there will be at least SOME pressure on insurance companies to keep premiums lower...

    Parent
    There wouldn't be pressure (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by dk on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:04:16 AM EST
    as long as only the poor and unemployed are covered, because the insurance companies are not really competing for them.  In the meantime, the mandates on healthy employed people will give insurance companies a guaranteed money supply, since those people are prohibited from availing of the public option.

    I do see the argument that eventually the public option could be expanded.  But I also see, and currently am more convinced by the argument, that the implementation of the "public option" could actually sour people so much that it will make it harder, not easier to expand.  That's why the alternate solution, start from scratch and go for a real public option next time, makes more sense to me.

    Parent

    and we know it's going to be a sh***y HMO (none / 0) (#76)
    by suzieg on Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 12:31:23 AM EST
    type of insurance.

    Parent
    That's what they said about (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:31:30 AM EST
    passing Medicare - 40 long years ago and we are still waiting.  Besides, the reality is that it is not the poor that are struggling with healthcare costs.  Our poor often enjoy better coverage than the middle class now and that is in part why this problem is creating such a huge drag on our economy.

    Parent
    Good grief (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:40:54 AM EST
    Do you have any idea how many of us there are out here who are employed who don't have health insurance through an employer?  Start with all the self-employed, add in every independent corner grocery store in every town in the country and go on from there.  The cost of non-group health insurance is absolutely prohibitive.

    Parent
    Self-employed and small groups... (none / 0) (#45)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:44:37 AM EST
    ...(under 50 eligible EE's) can get small group coverage.  In fact, unlike individual coverage, it is guaranteed issue during enrollment periods and/or qualifying events.  

    It's just not that much cheaper than individual coverage.

    Parent

    And in fact (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:51:32 AM EST
    for very small groups, small group insurance is often MORE EXPENSIVE than individual insurance....and that's probably because of the guaranteed enrollment.

    Parent
    So why not do it right? (none / 0) (#49)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:48:54 AM EST
    Who knows, if the tax incentives are removed that may spawn group formation via internet, low-overhead agents, something like that.  What's the harm of removing the reg?  

    Parent
    Hahaha (none / 0) (#50)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:50:23 AM EST
    Sorry - way off - that you were responding to me about something entirely different.

    Parent
    you can get small group coverage (none / 0) (#77)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 12:49:11 AM EST
    even if you have no employees, so long as you have a business. Try Anthem.

    Parent
    Naw (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:44:21 AM EST
    Why? Or do you think (none / 0) (#8)
    by dk on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:45:56 AM EST
    that more than the poor and unemployed will have access to the "public option?"

    Parent
    I do (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:48:49 AM EST
    That's debatable at the moment. (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:29:24 AM EST
    Some people define the public option as being widely accessible while others do not.  The problem is that that debate can't even start until they decide that they are committed to a public option.  And if the public option is only limited to discrete groups of people based on abilty to pay, they might as well just call it a Medicaid funding act and dispense with this "reform" charade.  

    Parent
    A girl can dream, can't she? (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Sweet Sue on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:32:28 AM EST
    The Obama Administration should expand Medicare to cover everyone and agree to name it the Edward M. Kennedy Act if Kennedy agrees to quit his seat while Patrick still has time to appoint his sucessor.

    Girl dreaming away (none / 0) (#47)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:46:55 AM EST
    the law in Massachusetts.  Patrick doesn't get to appoint someone to fill Teddy's seat.

    Parent
    Cones down to the difference (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 01:10:15 PM EST
    between Democrats and Republicans. I trust the government, which is directly accountable to me, over a private company.

    The comment you respond to (none / 0) (#70)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 01:11:31 PM EST
    was deleted for use of the F word.

    Parent
    But this, (none / 0) (#2)
    by lilburro on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:36:47 AM EST
    according to Ezra, is more bold than LBJ.

    Well (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:38:34 AM EST
    It isn't.

    Parent
    If there's no public optoin on the table, (none / 0) (#11)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:04:14 AM EST
    what's everyone's take on providing tax deductions for individuals purchasing health insurance, identical to that employers already enjoy?  

    Secondly, what about removing regulations (I realize many of these are state issues) that force insurance companies to cover certain items that someone looking for cheaper, more tailored insurance, may find superfluous?

    Against (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:05:28 AM EST
    Very (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:06:23 AM EST
    Both of them? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:09:21 AM EST
    If you have a moment, could you explain your opposition to the first?  I normally can surmise your reasoning but for this I must admit I'm clueless.

    Parent
    Both (none / 0) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:13:38 AM EST
    I already (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:10:08 AM EST
    get this tax deduction. It does nothing to help really.

    Parent
    Everybody gets this if (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:12:55 AM EST
    medical costs exceed a percentage of income, correct?  But the people I know whose costs met that minimum are already bankrupt or almost so from medical bills.

    Parent
    I'm (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:20:07 AM EST
    a 1099 so I get to write off policy premiums which people participating in employer plans dont get.

    Parent
    sole practitioners can write off premiums too (none / 0) (#78)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 12:52:59 AM EST
    if they are not a corporation, and also put up to $3k a year in a health savings account (that rolls over from year to year if you don't spend it.) So you get to deduct the premiums as a business expense and the $3k from your income.

    The $3k amounts to very little, deducting the premiums is a little better.

    Parent

    Where you at? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:12:04 AM EST
    I was unaware of any part of the country where individuals saw identical tax breaks for purchasing healthcare as do employers.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#24)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:18:54 AM EST
    I'm a 1099 employee and get to itemize my health premiums on my tax returns. So perhaps you can tell me what the business get that's different from that if anything?

    Parent
    Nothing just asking! (none / 0) (#30)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:28:04 AM EST
    So if the majority of people are given an incentive to get insurance via their employer - and this incentive is removed and everyone had the choice between their employer coverage and taking that money and spending it in a level playing field bearing what they wanted out of their insurance in mind, this would or would not change the type of products offered by insurance companies?  

    Parent
    Here's (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:42:05 AM EST
    what you dont get: it's not going to be a level playing field. Large corporations get economies of scale that the individual person WON'T get.

    Do you understand volume pricing? This is also giving the insurance companies MORE power to screw people over because it's easier to mess with one little person than someone that gives them a ton of business.

    Parent

    People buy things in groups outside of work. (none / 0) (#52)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:51:46 AM EST
    If that's the only reason then I say why not.  

    Parent
    So (none / 0) (#58)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 12:03:50 PM EST
    you dont mind getting screwed over by your insurance company? Go right ahead.

    Parent
    I don't follow. (none / 0) (#61)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 12:37:59 PM EST
    Why would expanding the choices available to me by equalizing the tax rebates allow insurers to screw me over more so than now?  

    Parent
    Because (none / 0) (#69)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 01:10:53 PM EST
    you are an individual going against the giants and if you think you are going to go into battle with them and win you are crazy. that is unless you have unimited amounts of time and money.

    Parent
    But I have not removed any options. (none / 0) (#71)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 01:19:19 PM EST
    I certainly see what you're arguing.  What I'm saying is separate (if not correct me), that I've only added additional choice to my health insurance acquisition.  I can still go through my employer even if I'm eligible to obtain a tax deduction for individually purchased insurance.  

    I would also hesitate to agree with the premise that individuals could not - barring regulations inhibiting them - negotiate themselves as groups.  In fact, if companies were to arise that facilitated this service for multiple voluntary groups, the overhead that business have (those that maintain staff to sort out their insurance purchases) could possibly be reduced.  

    Please let me know if you still disagree that removing this regulation would at worst be harmless and at best be helpful.  Thanks!

    Parent

    What (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 01:47:05 PM EST
    the difference between a tax deduction like you're saying and a subsidy? Not much in my book except you have to have the money up front with the deduction. I would agree with people being able to decouple their insurance from their job but in all honesty probably very few would be able to take this option because it's going to cost them more.

    Someone to facilitate individuals buying insurance would only add to the costs of insurance and be part of the problem. Insurance sales people are part of the problem right now. Their commission is huge--something like 10-25% where in a lot of industries it's 5% or less for commission.

    Well, as far as regulation goes, we've done that and it hasnt worked. Can you show me one case of where deregulation works? We did it here with natural gas and it's been used by the suppliers to gouge everyone.

    Parent

    You lost money on NG dereg? (none / 0) (#79)
    by Samuel on Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 08:46:24 AM EST
    I saved my company around $400,000 so far - granted the savings was higher cause we didn't hedge back in January.  Did you stick with the distributor to supply your commidity?  The whole point was that you could go third party on the futures market...so I'd do that.  Gasmark/Hess.  You can buy the futures or just lock in the basis...it's WAY cheaper now.  Where are you and what suppliers?  NYMEX futures can be delivered to the Gulf and transported anywhere in the US. If you're talking about residential NG, well the price can only be higher BECAUSE of remaining regulation - look at futures settlements for the past 8 months.

    "but in all honesty probably very few would be able to take this option because it's going to cost them more." - You don't know that and it isn't a case for or against the current regulation.

    "Someone to facilitate individuals buying insurance would only add to the costs of insurance and be part of the problem." - Companies have employees whose job it is to do this, we're not adding more overhead here.  Not a case for or against once again - we're talking about expanding choice.

    "Well, as far as regulation goes, we've done that and it hasnt worked." Agreed.

    "Can you show me one case of where deregulation works?" Foreign Trade, FedEx, Prohibition...Isn't the burden of proof on those who want to take/maintain the action to regulate anyway?

    Parent

    If the government (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:11:38 AM EST
    is going to subsidize EVERYONE'S insurance, whether group or individual, then it might as well just be paid for directly.  Putting the subsidy in the form of a tax deduction just means that only people in higher income brackets get to reap the benefit.

    As for your second question, the entire reason coverage of certain items is mandated in the first place is to keep costs down across the board.  If women are the only ones who have to pay for pregnancy and pre-natal coverage because all the men get to opt out, guess what, women end up paying quite a bit more.  Your suggestion is not a way to contain costs, it is a way to screw over the at-risk population by leaving them to fend for themselves.

    Parent

    Very good point. (none / 0) (#23)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:18:48 AM EST
    I was thinking of it not as as subsidy but as a way to increase consumer choice by allowing individuals to purchase insurance at prices similar to their employers (or identical if they approach a company as a group).  Right now, large employers control the money insurance companies see and are less likely to be critical of service for their employees than the employees themselves who currently have to pay more for individually purchased plans.  If we leveled the playing field - either give taxes back to individuals or eliminate employer tax rebates - then the consumer can start voting with their dollars a little more.  Would you say this would be less optimal or more optimal to the current situation as it stands?


    Parent
    "Consumer choice" is not a (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:20:12 AM EST
    relevant consideration in the health insurance (or, frankly, healthcare) market.

    Parent
    I agree but why wouldn't we change that? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:35:55 AM EST
    It is impossible to change (none / 0) (#46)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:44:54 AM EST
    You absolutely cannot comparison shop for medical care.

    Parent
    Now you cannot. (none / 0) (#53)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:53:37 AM EST
    I don't understand how you can make that statement given we're an environment regulated against that.  To be honest, I don't understand why the tax break would be for employers only if it were not specifically to prevent such an occurrence.

    Parent
    There is no way that it could ever be possible (none / 0) (#54)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:54:37 AM EST
    to comparison shop for medical care. Do I really need to explain why?

    Parent
    You don't have to but I'd appreciate it. (none / 0) (#57)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 12:00:47 PM EST
    Don't employers already comparison shop?  Don't individuals already comparison shop?  I don't think you'd argue that.  I'm saying that the degree of choice to individuals, left to themselves or with the choice to form groups not predicated on their employers, made available to them while comparison shopping on their own behalf - rather than for the bottom line of a company in the case of employers - would place pressure for more choice to be made available by insurers in order to compete for market share.

    Parent
    You need heart bypass surgery immediately (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 12:06:14 PM EST
    and the hospital says it will cost $50,000. Are you in a position to comparison shop?

    Paul Krugman explains.

    Parent

    Pop quiz hot shot! (none / 0) (#62)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 12:38:58 PM EST
    Come on - who shops for car insurance after crashing their car?  What are you talking about?

    Parent
    If your insurance company (none / 0) (#64)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 12:51:34 PM EST
    tells you that the medical malady you had every reason to believe would be covered isn't, what are you supposed to do?

    Requiring people to buy private insurance is like having only private police or firefighters.

    Parent

    Andgarden, you (none / 0) (#73)
    by KeysDan on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 01:33:58 PM EST
    may have Lazlo Toth on the line.

    Parent
    Oh wow I had read that. (none / 0) (#63)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 12:47:51 PM EST
    I'm going to past a series of counterarguments I read to that blog post on another blog below.  If I were writing from scratch I'd be a little nicer about it.  Just wondering what you make, specifically, of the counterarguments.  Please respond to the points clearly so that if I'm wrong I may understand, thanks!  

    ------
    So here's some of that brilliant argumentation by Krugman:

    "And you can't just trust insurance companies either -- they're not in business for their health, or yours."

    Just as home insurers aren't in business to pay claims, but they do anyway. Plus, government providers aren't in business for their citizen's health either. They're in the business of winning elections.

    "This problem is made worse by the fact that actually paying for your health care is a loss from an insurers' point of view -- they actually refer to it as "medical costs.""

    This point is literally retarded. Any form of insurance has the same dynamic. If my car insurer didn't view payouts as a cost, it would quickly fail. This is almost as stupid as his description of the Austrian Business Cycle.

    "This means both that insurers try to deny as many claims as possible, and that they try to avoid covering people who are actually likely to need care."

    So they don't just open the checkbook with every claim? Do single-payers systems? And they don't want to "insure" people who are already really ill? Shocking! Imagine a home insurer who refused to cover someone who built a house in a flood plain that flooded every other year. Shocking! Maybe insurers should agree to give full coverage at the usual rates to anyone who decided to buy insurance after getting Hodgkin's.

    "Both of these strategies use a lot of resources, which is why private insurance has much higher administrative costs than single-payer systems. And since there's a widespread sense that our fellow citizens should get the care we need -- not everyone agrees, but most do -- this means that private insurance basically spends a lot of money on socially destructive activities."

    As we know from our experience with Medicare, the Iraq War, and any other government enterprise, the costs are being low-balled. And if Krugman wanted to see that everyone got care, he and his rich friends could pay for something themselves instead of free-loading all the time.

    "The second thing about health care is that it's complicated, and you can't rely on experience or comparison shopping. ("I hear they've got a real deal on stents over at St. Mary's!") That's why doctors are supposed to follow an ethical code, why we expect more from them than from bakers or grocery store owners."

    This is more raw idiocy. Has Krugman never heard of hospital rankings? Why does he think that patients go to Seattle from throughout the US and Canada to receive cancer treatments? Maybe they compared hospitals?

    "You could rely on a health maintenance organization to make the hard choices and do the cost management, and to some extent we do. But HMOs have been highly limited in their ability to achieve cost-effectiveness because people don't trust them -- they're profit-making institutions, and your treatment is their cost."

    STUPID. How can Krugman trust Toyota to make a road-worthy Prius? Doesn't he realize that Toyota is a PROFIT-MAKING INSTITUTION and therefore doesn't care if he rams into a wall at freeway speed? (Only non-profit institutions care about doing a good job.) His brakes are their cost! His crumple zones are their cost! His pyrotechnic pre-tensioners are their cost!

    "Between those two factors, health care just doesn't work as a standard market story."

    Because he and his ilk have sold a Utopian idea.

    "All of this doesn't necessarily mean that socialized medicine, or even single-payer, is the only way to go. There are a number of successful health-care systems, at least as measured by pretty good care much cheaper than here, and they are quite different from each other. There are, however, no examples of successful health care based on the principles of the free market, for one simple reason: in health care, the free market just doesn't work."

    Krugman has already said before that we're halfway to socialized medicine and the reasons are obvious: 46% of health care in the US is paid for with government-stolen money and the tax structure is FDRdiotic.

    "And people who say that the market is the answer are flying in the face of both theory and overwhelming evidence."

    Right... people can't make choices to exchange money for goods, insurance, or services more intelligently than Lynn Woolsey, Lynn Westmoreland, or Maxine Waters.
    ----------

    Parent

    Any person who thinks that health insurance (none / 0) (#65)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 12:52:17 PM EST
    is like car insurance or homeowner's insurance is functionally retarded.

    Parent
    Ughh. (none / 0) (#66)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 01:03:21 PM EST
    Please respond in the framework Krugman presents for why a free market cannot provide a health insurance solution rather than state rather than giving derisive absolutes without presenting your reasoning.  

    He states ""And you can't just trust insurance companies either -- they're not in business for their health, or yours."" - Why is a health insurance company different than another form of assurance here?  What is it that makes a car insurer trustworthy?  What is it, in your opinion"And you can't just trust insurance companies either -- they're not in business for their health, or yours.", that makes a government program even more trustworthy than both? If it's voting, how do you address still being Iraq/bailout/etc.  

    I appreciate you engaging me very much!

    Parent

    human beings are not widgets (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by Dadler on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 01:21:22 PM EST
    that is point one, which you don't seem to acknowledge.  insuring inanimate objects is ENTIRELY different than insuring the continuing "health" of a living, breathing human creature.

    second, the insurance industry has to, first and foremost, above all else, PROFIT from your "healthcare".  they can ONLY do that by jacking up premiums and denying coverage.

    the government, while certainly not perfect, does not have to profit off your care, and a public plan for all would have such gigantic bargaining power that prices could ONLY come down significantly.

    Parent

    I don't beleive that argument has been evidenced. (none / 0) (#75)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:06:11 PM EST
    Your first point states that insuring humans is "ENTIRELY different" without really explaining the use of the word "ENTIRELY".  I believe you're coming from a sentimental viewpoint, to which I can sympathize, that denying coverage for profit kills someone - money is less valuable then life.  I understand that totally but do firmly believe that logic and empiricism lead to the conclusion that private companies (not the current regulatory mess we have - which I'll agree blows) will always have more incentive to satisfy their customers than the government.  This is because companies are much more beholden to consumers than government to voters.  The US government has done some seriously disgusting stuff in recent memory and who knows who will be in charge in a few years so I can't see a reason to trust them with your health insurance - considering the care that is covered and the extreme cost at which this care is brought to us.

    Second point:

    A) Insurance companies, like all companies - do not profit from "jacking up prices" as their consumers will flee to competitors.  They profit from reducing costs to increase profit margins.  

    B)I do agree, more profit in the short term is to be had in denying coverage.  I would contend however that no insurance provider could stay in business (barring the pages of regulatory protection that do exist now) by denying coverage arbitrarily.  (This is what I was mentioning in my response to your first point)

    Third point:  
    Kinda like the first and point 2b:  The government doesn't have to do anything we want, as we've seen for pretty much 30 years now.  Them not needing to profit (as they are guaranteed their pay regardless of financial performance) is precisely why they need not heed the requests of voters.  When Obama didn't pull out of Iraq, I wasn't able to get my vote back.  This is because its not a contract.  

    We both want the best coverage for the most people.  I mean, I really really do.  So go ahead and let me have it, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong as I know a LOT of really smart people that disagree with me on this...so give me something.   Thanks much.

    Parent

    Not really going to help (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:24:52 AM EST
    Individual coverage is just outrageously priced compared to group coverage, and of course you have the pre-existing conditions problem once you step outside of the group-coverage world.

    The insurance companies are just not that interested right now in competing aggressively for individual consumers.  The individual is kind of helpless without some way to aggregate his bargaining and purchasing power.

    Parent

    Sure. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:32:29 AM EST

    So if nothing were to change except the removal of added tax incentives to go through your employer would you be for or against it?

    I agree with your last sentence except that I believe there is a way.  People obtain group rates for all kinds of thing independent of their employers.  I'm not sure why this would not be possible given the tax regs were evened out.  

    Parent

    I would oppose it (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:35:40 AM EST
    no reason to increase the deficit for such a useless measure.

    Parent
    So what's it's current function? (none / 0) (#40)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:39:40 AM EST
    If it's entirely irrelevant, why not remove it and reduce the deficit?  If the answer is because it would reduce the number covered by making it more expensive for employers, I ask again, why afford the insurance companies more of an opportunity to collude against the consumer with big employers?

    Also - the amount the deficit would increase would represent the number of additional people covered.  When people opt out of employer insurance to purchase individually, the employer no longer realizes that tax deduction.  

    Parent

    I do not find (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:43:00 AM EST
    that big employers "collude" with insurance companies to screw their employees.  Your point that employers are probably less incentivized to complain than the individual employees is valid, but only as far as it goes.

    There are legitimate arguments for getting rid of the employer health care deduction as things stand, but I'd only support that as part of a coherent effort to move away from the employer-based model.  Otherwise you're not really addressing the systemic problems.

    Parent

    Wow I think we just agreed. (none / 0) (#56)
    by Samuel on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:55:38 AM EST
    "I'd only support that as part of a coherent effort to move away from the employer-based model."

    Right on.  I'm literally astonished we found common ground.  I'm genuinely happy.

    Parent

    Hannity's Health Care Debate Hypocrisy (none / 0) (#16)
    by kevsters on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:08:45 AM EST
    You must much this clip of Sean Hannity being a huge hypocrite about the public option and the health care debate.

    Here is the clip.

    http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=2603

    And Ezra lies (none / 0) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:24:41 AM EST
    Having a public option helps the most people because when Humana was denying you coverage on your chemo for various paper eating, time consuming, senseless reasons that you must argue against for weeks, you could then buy the public option and instead of fighting denials you could get treatment instead.

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:27:42 AM EST
    I honestly hope the system won't work that way in practice, because it would give the insurance companies even more incentive to wrongfully deny claims.  Look at it from Humana's perspective - if they can harass you into leaving them for the public option the moment your health care becomes expensive for them, that's a win in their book.

    Parent
    But when everyone is buying (none / 0) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:32:29 AM EST
    the public option because it works for everyone and delivers actual treatment....isn't that quality single payer?  Heck, that could almost be called a co-op.  It stinks of Canada.

    Parent
    Sure (none / 0) (#39)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:37:00 AM EST
    but what we'd have in your scenario is private insurers who get to collect your premiums as long as you're profitable, then dump you on the public option as soon as you get a serious illness.  That can't really be how the system is envisioned.

    Parent
    I dunno (none / 0) (#43)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:42:53 AM EST
    It gives people options.  All these folks at townhalls are all riled up and don't want to leave their current insurers.  Now they don't have to.

    Parent
    I am in favor (none / 0) (#48)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:47:14 AM EST
    of letting people switch to the public option, and in fact the whole competition idea doesn't work otherwise.  My point is that if people are going to be switching right at the point where their private insurer wrongfully denies coverage, that's effectively encouraging insurers to wrongfully deny coverage.

    Let's say you have cancer and you're going to need a million dollars of health care.  Humana doesn't want to pay a million bucks, but they know that if they deny coverage then you might sue and make a big mess for them and they might have to pay a lot of money.  But imagine, instead, if Humana knew that just by giving you a hard time, you'd walk across the street to the public option and they wouldn't have to worry about being sued or anything.  All of a sudden they're much more eager to give you a hard time, as soon as they realize you're going to cost them a million dollars.  There has to be a better way.

    Parent

    I hear what you are saying (none / 0) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:55:33 AM EST
    but who is going to continue to pay $400 a month premiums when $100 a month premiums gets you the same coverage, pays the physicians and the portion of the system that actually delivers healthcare, and doesn't deny you until hell freezes over?  I know there will be some stubborn silly wingers out there making some senseless point, but I can forgive them....come on in, the water is fine.  If I was going to worry about Fatcats ripping us off more than focusing on providing for regular suffering people, I wouldn't have been able to sleep for years and years now.  Even Michael Moore paid the insurance premiums on his biggest critic when he was in trouble.  I'm willing to pay in order to make my point, because the way the system is rigged right now I'm going to pay anyway.

    Parent
    What's in a name? (none / 0) (#60)
    by NYShooter on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 12:28:31 PM EST
    Everything!
    "public option" is an inside the beltway term. I would venture to say that many people don't have a full understanding what it means.

    To wit:
    "Inheritance tax"...................majority for
    "death tax".............................."    "  against

    "public option".........................."    "   against
    "more choices".......................... "    '   ????