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Revisiting The Stupak Problem

mcjoan addresses the Stupak Problem I wrote about yesterday. I think both mcjoan and her commenters misunderstand the reconciliation process and Stupak's position. First, it is important to remember that Stupak voted FOR the House health bill, once his amendment was adopted. So clearly Stupak's issue was a discrete one - public subsidies for private insurance policies that cover abortion services. Those subsidies are offered for individuals who earn too much to qualify for Medicaid (in the House bill, that was 150% of FPL, in the Senate bill 133% of FPL) but no more than 80K/year for a family of 4 (with the subsidies reduced on a sliding scale.)

Since a new bill can not be passed through regular order, I proposed a fix of the Senate bill (Stupak has stated the Senate bill is unacceptable) that could address Stupak's concerns while still complying with the Byrd Rule for reconciliation. In essence, my proposal is an elimination of the federal subsidies for the purchase of private insurance and a transfer of those funds to expanding Medicaid eligibility as much as possible. I think the de facto effect of this is to render the state based exchanges meaningless (which they pretty much are anyway imo), but it does not require actually eliminating them. Keep them in place. No harm done. More . . .

By eliminating the public subsidies for the purchase of private insurance you eliminate the need for a Stupak Amendment. There will be nothing for the Stupak Amendment to actually apply to.

This does create a different problem regarding the individual mandate. But this can also be addressed via reconciliation -- by altering the application of the tax that is the actual mechanism for enforcement of the individual mandate. Indeed, the Obama proposal tweaks the mandate in this way. Clearly then this is also doable by reconciliation.

Another possibility for addressing the Stupak problem is to compel uninsured individuals to subscribe into a public option, perhaps even Medicare. Thus, individuals could purchase their own private insurance or instead be auto-enrolled in Medicare (which is subject to the Hyde Amendment.) Again, the purpose of the Stupak amendment would be vitiated.

Any of these changes would resolve the Stupak problem and are doable via reconciliation.

Of course, if an obsessive love for the exchanges and the public subsidies for the exchanges makes such modifications untenable to some, that means they are saying they are willing to kill the health bills over the exchanges.

Such a position does not seem reasonable to me. But then again, there are people who feel the same way about the excise tax, and I find that unreasonable too.

Speaking for me only

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    How many Democratic constituencies (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Wed Feb 24, 2010 at 04:50:40 PM EST
    will be sacrificed at the altar of the magic exchanges? Stay tuned!

    How many people does Stupak have? (none / 0) (#2)
    by cawaltz on Wed Feb 24, 2010 at 04:55:10 PM EST
    There are 257 seats in the House filled by Democrats so how large is the Democratic anti choice coalition anyway? Because frankly I'm getting tired of being told the Democratic side of the aisle si so much better than the GOP side when we have legislation being held hostage by a guy's personal religious beliefs.

    257 is a meaniless number (none / 0) (#4)
    by BTAL on Wed Feb 24, 2010 at 05:08:32 PM EST
    The current number sits at -4 minimum.

    As for Stupak, today he said it is 15-20 and abortion is only part of their problem with the Senate bill.

    IMHO, Pelosi has far bigger problems than just Stupak.

    Parent

    15-20 (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by cawaltz on Wed Feb 24, 2010 at 05:19:16 PM EST
    would put Pelosi at 237 without the anti choice coalition. So where do the other 20 holdouts come from and why is it more important to placate Stupak then them?

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    What Really Is Stupak Bill? (none / 0) (#18)
    by norris morris on Thu Feb 25, 2010 at 04:33:57 PM EST
    I'm getting tired of the Catholic Bishops framing an amendment which if not incorporated in the House bill, then Stupak and pals would NOT vote on it.

    At this point this Democratic Catholic holdup is pure political blackmail.  Could someone explain it SIMPLY POINT by point with as few words as possible?

    I was somehow under the impression for many years that Church and State were separate powers as defined by the constitution?

    Nothing about this billl has been properly explained in a clear & concise manner. Nelson's inclusion of abortion no no's in Senate bill are also insulting  end runs on constitutional rights.

    WHY is Stupak necessary when Hyde amendment has been law for years and prohibits abortion through the use of federal funds??

    Why has Nelson's amendment been alllowed to stand when his Medicare bribery was eliminated?

    Er, I guess it's ok to discriminate against women's rights as women are no longer as relevant politically?

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    Please, expand MediCARE eligibilty (none / 0) (#3)
    by lambert on Wed Feb 24, 2010 at 05:08:16 PM EST
    Medicaid is a welfare program. That's political poison. Moreover, it's income and assets-based, so we're looking at solutions where people have to lose their houses through care.

    Progressively lowering Medicare eligibility, on the other hand, is a huge political winner ("It's not a government program!") and also really does get the camel's nose under the tent for single payer, since Medicare is single payer.

    When are (none / 0) (#5)
    by Emma on Wed Feb 24, 2010 at 05:15:57 PM EST
    the single payer advocates going to address Hyde?

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    When we've got a first class stamp? (none / 0) (#9)
    by lambert on Wed Feb 24, 2010 at 06:59:37 PM EST
    Not sure I understand the question. Is this some sort of test for seriousness?

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    No (none / 0) (#10)
    by cawaltz on Wed Feb 24, 2010 at 09:56:47 PM EST
    There is some serious problems with having a single payer system with federal funding if federal funding is prohibited from being utilized to fund abortion services through the Hyde amendment.

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    Medicare doesn't cover dental either (none / 0) (#13)
    by beowulf on Thu Feb 25, 2010 at 12:42:54 AM EST
    Just because a single payer plan doesn't cover every medical service doesn't mean it should be rejected until it does.

    Congress has voted, through both Democratic and Republican majorities, to block federal funding of abortion.  Any push to include it will bring out pro-life groups in opposition who'd otherwise stay neutral or in the case of the Catholic Bishops, would be supportive of healthcare reform.

    I think TBD is reading the situation exactly right, any healthcare reform with a chance of passing in the foreseeable future is going to have to detour around the abortion issue by keeping taxpayer dollars in federal health plans only.

    Curiously enough, I'm not sure anyone on the HIll ever thought to  apply the  Hyde Amendment to Medicare because recipients just don't get pregnant all that often (though sometimes they do since the permanently disabled are eligible for Medicare coverage).  However if the issue ever went to a vote, Congress would quickly vote to extend Hyde to Medicare.  

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    No better and no worse than the current (none / 0) (#17)
    by lambert on Thu Feb 25, 2010 at 04:16:38 PM EST
    The politics are a wash because the forced pregnancy crowd is going to do what it's going to do.

    So, there's nothing to address.

    Then again, one might consider that advocating for a system that is known to work, and can be shown to work through experience, might be an easier sell, even factoring in Hyde.

    Parent

    But (none / 0) (#21)
    by Emma on Thu Feb 25, 2010 at 05:00:55 PM EST
    it won't work equally for women.  Not covering everybody's dental work is not like not covering women's reproductive health services.

    I think single payer advocates have a responsibility to answer the question:  are you working for a single payer system that will discriminate against women?  Nothing to address, my a**.

    Funny, how the guy who's consistently argued against the "single payer isn't politically possible" crowd now wants to talk about what's politically possible "even factoring in Hyde".

    But, hey, okay, one less political interest group to support, one less political campaign to send money to.

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    Oh, for pity's sake (none / 0) (#23)
    by lambert on Thu Feb 25, 2010 at 06:11:41 PM EST
    The tendentiousness burns:

    Funny, how the guy who's consistently argued against the "single payer isn't politically possible" crowd now wants to talk about what's politically possible "even factoring in Hyde".

    You asked a question, I gave an answer.

    Obviously, I'm not an 11 dimensional chess player. Making the assumption that your intentions are good, let me say again:

    The politics of abortion are identical no matter the medical care system. Therefore, it makes sense to advocate for the best one.

    Parent

    Well, (none / 0) (#26)
    by Emma on Fri Feb 26, 2010 at 10:46:12 AM EST
    what's withh the pushback on addressing Hyde in order to order to argue for a single payer system that doesn't discriminate against women?  I mean, you can even have a catchy little slogan like:  Don't Hyde Single Payer!  See how good that is?  It address everything.

    But I get your position:  since women won't have WORSE access to abortion under single payer than they do now, we needn't address it.

    Well, if the standard is "no worse than before," why do health care reform in the first place?  I mean, I'll be happy with no worse than before for everybody, if that's what we're arguing for.  But it bothers me when it's just applied to women.

    Second, women WILL have worse access to abortion if everybody is pushed into single payer which isn't allowed to offer abortion services.  That is, women can now buy insurance that covers abortion.  Under your plan, women will be forced to participate in a plan that does not provide abortion.  I think that's worse, because women who can afford it will still be required to buy extra, private insurance for an abortion or simply will have to pay out of pocket.

    But I get it:  if women want equal health care, we're on our own.  Period.

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    Or (none / 0) (#28)
    by Emma on Fri Feb 26, 2010 at 11:00:06 AM EST
    That is, women can now buy insurance that covers abortion.  

    As happens for me now, have employer supplied insurance that covers abortion.

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    Single payer is better for women (none / 0) (#24)
    by lambert on Thu Feb 25, 2010 at 06:40:23 PM EST
    See here.

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    But (none / 0) (#27)
    by Emma on Fri Feb 26, 2010 at 10:57:16 AM EST
    a single payer plan subject to Hyde is not better for women's equality.  It is, in fact, worse for women's equality as it further enshines the idea that women's health care need not, and should not, include reproductive health services.  And without equality, any health care gains for women under a single payer plan are precarious, forever unsettled, and subject to the waxing/waning power of people opposed to women's equality.  IOW, women's health care needs remain a political bargaining chip in a way that's never true for men's health care needs.

    For example, how long until birth control is legislatively defined as abortion?  And then it won't be covered by single payer.

    But, excuse me for thinking ahead and thinking that women's equality is important ab initio.  Apparently that's not a concern for the single payer movement -- good to know that.

    So, Andgarden, to answer your repeated question (though I thought I had previously):  I oppose any single payer plan that doesn't seek to get rid of Hyde.  

    I will no longer work for or advocate for any single payer plan that's been proposed, including HR 676.  No equality for me, no health care for you.

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    I find this line to miss the point (none / 0) (#29)
    by CST on Fri Feb 26, 2010 at 11:09:57 AM EST
    "No equality for me, no health care for you".

    Since what you're really saying is:

    "No equality for me, no health care for anyone".

    There are a lot more health issues at stake here for women than just abortion.  It's an important issue, but it's not the only issue.  It's not even the only issue in women's health.

    A single-payer system should be significantly cheaper than private insurance.  So if you need supplementary insurance to cover other procedures, especially something like abortion where insurance companies should want to cover it - as it saves them money in the end - if your overall insurance costs are cheaper, I don't see how this is a loss.

    I understand that it's infuriating to be singled out.  I find the entire conversation infuriating and despicable - especially when it starts to spill over into other reproductive health issues.  But I don't think it's beneficial to lose sight of the bigger picture.  If I get cancer and can't afford the incredibly expensive medical treatment, It's not going to make a huge difference one way or the other whether I had to pay a little bit extra for abortion coverage.

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    Clearly, (none / 0) (#30)
    by Emma on Fri Feb 26, 2010 at 02:30:31 PM EST
    I disagree.  I agree that "no health care for you" = no health care for anybody.  Fine.  I'd rather have that than have inequality in health care.  YMMV.  

    I understand the arguments against my position. I simply don't agree with them.  I am, simply put, not going to accept being treated as second class for the (alleged) good of everybody else.  Let somebody else take one for the team.  I'm tired of it.  But who else is getting screwed in this single payer formulation?  Nobody, that's who.  Just women.

    Inequality = inequality.  I don't accept "it's not really that bad" as a valid argument.  Water fountains labeled "Colored" delivered water, after all.  Train compartments labeled "Colored" delivered African Americans to the same destination, after all.  The "it's not so bad" argument was, I thought, laid to rest already by the civil rights movement that understood taht small inequalities really are that bad because they're part of a larger scheme of inequality.

    Further, as I already said, allegedly small inequalities pave the way for larger inequalities in the future.  We KNOW anti-choice forces have been and are agitating to get birth control classified as abortion.  Why would we not take that into account in our strategies now?  This whole "it's not so bad" argument is extremely short-sighted and horribly narrow in my opinion.

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    Medicare is Now Just (none / 0) (#19)
    by norris morris on Thu Feb 25, 2010 at 04:41:26 PM EST
    being treated as:  Bait and switch.  Medicaid is being considered a welfare program.

    What the hell is going on?

    Whatever happened to computerizing all patient medical records throughout Medicare/Medicaid systems to prevent unnecessary duplication of treatment and testing, or the practice of seeking 2nd, or 3rd opinions without any limitations?

    Where are the real cost savings that are talked about in the current HC bill?

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    Enough (none / 0) (#7)
    by kidneystones on Wed Feb 24, 2010 at 06:16:15 PM EST
    left of center women are unhappy with the current plan to give any sensible male pause. The entire exercise has come to resemble a kind of parody of potty training, in that it doesn't really matter to Dems what the final result looks like as long as they can squeeze out a t&rd. And that's if the summit or reconciliation is 'successful'.

    I'm a big fan of jamming the right legislation right down the GOPs throat. The 15 billion jobs bill, the deficit reduction fig-leaf, the two new nuclear plants aren't going to get the job done.

    States and local government need money. The un-employment numbers are creating revenue problems for governments as well as individuals. I don't see why Dems continue to invest huge amounts of energy into a failed exercise other than to say to the voters: 'come look'.

    I must be totally (none / 0) (#8)
    by Molly Pitcher on Wed Feb 24, 2010 at 06:40:28 PM EST
    out of step.  Here I have been thinking religion was poking into every nook and cranny: one nook must have been overlooked.  According to something called the Chicago (why am I not surprised) Council on Global Affairs,  we have a 'God gap.'  Our "uncompromising Western secularism feeds religious extremism,... and fails to encourage religious groups that promote peace and human rights."

    Guess it is time to replace "crusade' with "Holy War."  Somehow I'd gotten the notion that it is some of our 'religious' folk that fail to encourage ... peace and human rights.

    BTD, out of curiosity (none / 0) (#11)
    by Makarov on Wed Feb 24, 2010 at 10:29:07 PM EST
    Do you know if the proposed Medicaid expansion changes the current means tests? When I was on Medicaid for about a year, 20 years ago, they took into account both income and assets, and also looked at combined household income/assets.

    This is important if the proposed expansion will actually reach the people who need it. 20 years ago, you couldn't have a 401K fund or IRA and still qualify (not if it was of any significant amount). Someone living with family, or even having unrelated roommates could also easily fail the means test since total household income was examined. If you were living with anyone else, you had to provide pay stubs from them, an asset statement, list of bank accounts, etc.

    This was in Pennsylvania, so your mileage may vary.

    The Hyde Amendment is program specific (none / 0) (#12)
    by debcoop on Thu Feb 25, 2010 at 12:24:12 AM EST
    The Hyde amendment is a budgetary measure which must be renewed each year.

    It was first passed in 1976 and first put into effect in the budget in 1980.  It's language does NOT state any broad philosophy about the use of federal funds being prohibited across the board in everything the federal government funds. The language just says that in in this program funds may not be used to pay for abortions except for incest etc.  

    Indeed, initially the language was just added into the budget in the section dealing with Medicaid.

    Later on,  the budgetary restriction was added to the sections appropriating funds for other programs like Veterans care.  Then later it was the mitiary and military hospitals. In 2002 the budgetary language was added to the section of the appropriations bill for the Federal Health Benefits Program.

    The langeage states that no funds in this part of the provision shall be expended except for the rape, incest , life of the mother exceptions.

    These program specific provisions must be inserted every year into the budget.  And yes the programs have grown but I must dispute with you that this actual creates a constant philosophy that NO FEDERAL  FUNDS may ever be used.

    Each year the ability to change or delete the language is possible on a program by program basis or in a general lack of any just restrictive language in the budget.

    I don't think it is a good position for anyone who cares about abortion rights to claim that there a general Federal prohibition as though it always existed and will continue to exist.  It must be reauthorized every year program by program.

    Bill Clinton did not  put the Hyde amendment into the budget he submitted to Congress.  He made the Approriations committee, ( which has always been headed by someone antichoice ) put it into the budget as a rider.

    Barack Obama did not follow that model to the detriment of the prochoice community and the women of America. He included the Hyde amendment himself in the budget he sent to Congress.  Then he told Katie Couric on national TV that the Hyde amendment was "federal tradition" Like it was something sacred.

    By acceding to the idea that it's federal tradition, as you seem to be doing as well,
     he empowers the anti choice people to go for further restrictions.  There is enormous damage to treating it as settled legislated law.

    While the Medicaid Hyde language was statutory, what controls Medicare though was a letter from Donna Shalala in 1998 changing her initial analysis that Medicare's trust fund structure did not make it part of the federal budget. That letter was then incorporated into the 1999 Omnibus Reconcilation Bill.

    Every one of these is disputable and changable. It doesn't have to stay that way and Congress could decide to say that Medicare is not covered by the restrictive language. Or the administrtion could send out another opinion saying that the Medicare Trust fund is not part of this restriction.  

    Are any of these politically doable...really hard now. We need more Democratic women in Caongress.  But you get nowhere by conceding the matter up front.

    That was the mistake the choice community made when the health care bill began.  They decided not to fight Hyde at the request of the administration.  And of course Capps amendment is not the compromise postion but has been thrown overboard.

    As to the effect of Medicaid, given that the large majority of the women who don;t have insurance are at the lower end of the socio-economic scale, the vast number who would have gone into the exchanges initially would be under this Medicaid extesnsion.  Tens of millions of women.

    Still allowing the exchanges could mean that eventually employer provided plans would enter the exchanges where Stupak could hold sway.

    too late to make any more sense.

    Thanks for the info (none / 0) (#14)
    by beowulf on Thu Feb 25, 2010 at 12:53:26 AM EST
    Especially the part about Shalala's letter.  

    What complicates Medicare' finances is that there is a Part A trust fund (hospitals)  which is funded by its own payroll tax, and a Part B  trust fund(doctors and other providers) which is funded by premiums (25%) and general revenue (75%).  I know the Part D drug benefit has the same 25/75 split, but I forget if it has its own separate trust fund or is paid out of the Part B fund.  

    In theory,  if Congress wanted to slice the onion, they could cover hospital charges but not doctors fees, but  if the matter ever came up, they'd just vote to ban all Medicare funding for the procedure.


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    what has happened for 35 years.

     

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    Otherwise one should just put up the white flag (none / 0) (#16)
    by debcoop on Thu Feb 25, 2010 at 01:37:35 PM EST
    and accept the idea that when it comes to abortion rights there can only be one retreat after another.

    There is no set in stone federal restriction on the use of federal monies for abortion. That was what I advancing in talking about it being program specific. It has been a increasing encroahment, which is undoable, if one actually decides to fight.

    If you say it's an enduring restriction then it's not liftable.  But it is liftable and every year Congress has the oppurtunity to do that.

    If we give up on this and to their disgrace, National NARAL, has done just that...initially over time through silence and neglect, but in this HCR fight,  by an active collusion with the administration to supposedly take abortion off the table by premature compromise...Which of course did not satisfy the right.  Once they got a compromise and Obama calling restriction on fedral funds a tradition, they knew they could go for more.

    We need to stop retreating or they will start to put women in jail just like the Utah anti miscarriage statute does.

    We have to take the battle to them and one way to do that is to deny them their fundamental assumptions and to make them fight on the ground they think they have won already.

    So since you are someone I have a great deal of respect and affection for, I am hoping you would join in that effort and reconsider you idea that the federal funding issue is fixed and irremediable.

    Parent

    Fight Hyde,Stupak, et al (none / 0) (#20)
    by norris morris on Thu Feb 25, 2010 at 04:55:33 PM EST
    NARAL has been a profound disappointment.

    Women have not been as engaged as they could in fighting for their rights and being vigilant about the rights they have and exercise.

    White Flags?
    NARAL sold out as fast as Obama,Pelosi,and the Senate without a whisper from any of our legislators that we vote for them to to protect us. A few women in the House have abstained, but would ultimately vote for a House bill.

    That the separation of powers can so easily be ignored is living proof of the profound discrimination of centuries against women's rights and is now being aided, abetted, and enforced by so called "Democrats".

    Why? For the votes from those anti abortionists who they fear politically. Women are the Democrats political fodder and are no better than the Republicans in exploiting and damaging women for their political pusuits and gain.

    I assure you many millions of women will have illegal abortions, and as before, many will die to satisfy the Council Of Catholic Bishops.

    Women will have to engage again in uniting politically in a forceful manner that leads to a real movement.  NARAL is a hypocritical scam.

    Parent

    That is a DIFFERENT point (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 26, 2010 at 09:13:07 AM EST
    I am for fighting to roll back Hyde.

    But the reality is Hyde has become federal policy in all aspects of funding.

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    Hyde Cannot Be Removed (none / 0) (#22)
    by norris morris on Thu Feb 25, 2010 at 05:41:45 PM EST
    Hyde should remain as it allows  revisiting abortion rights on a yearly basis instead of giving up, retreating, and closing the issue of abortion restrictions that could not be revisited.

    Stupak removes any options any cements their resistrictions permanently.

    So Hyde, a Republican put this yearly restriction in, but which allowed that incest and health reasons were valid within the amendment. But it could be changed, amended, or voted on  each year which allows for possible change and improvement.

    A whole lot more democratic and civil than the odious and restrictively PERMANENT amendment
    which Stupak inserted that finalizes this assault on women's equal protection and reproductive rights.

    So the Democrats have boldly allowed the Church to dictate what all women should do with their bodies and what they are entitled to in this end run on WadevRoe and the assault on decency women have felt entitled to in the right to determine their destinies.


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