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    Poor John Roberts (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 12:26:05 PM EST
    He just can't get over his beloved activist court being criticized by Obama.

    Change your diaper, Mr. Chief Justice.  A relatively tepid Obama's the least of your worries.  History will be much more unkind.

    Video of Justice Roberts (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 12:28:48 PM EST
    He's upset about having to remain (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 12:35:49 PM EST
    expressionless?  What a baby!  The Joint Chiefs had to remain expressionless, not sure if they actually did that though though I can't really guess what their expressions all meant (I personally think it is because they can't stand to be considered bad guys, they only ever intended to be heros), when Obama spoke about getting rid of don't ask don't tell.  But none of them are whining about it.  It goes with the job.  If you don't like it dearest Justice, please feel free to quit!

    Parent
    The Joint Chiefs (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:01:33 PM EST
    are not a separate and equal branch of government...

    Gesh... All this Imperial Presidency stuff from the folks who snarked at Bush 24/7!

    Parent

    Doesn't matter (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:10:51 PM EST
    And just because you lay (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:13:18 PM EST
    claim to one of those branches doesn't mean you don't get checked.  It was our founding fathers deepest desire that everyone gets checked.

    Parent
    Nobody said they shouldn't be checked... (none / 0) (#119)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:49:47 PM EST
    And nobody should whine when the "checked" becomes the "checker."

    And no, the Joint Chiefs aren't one of the three branches.

    Parent

    Well below the three (none / 0) (#125)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:56:28 PM EST
    branches, or should be.

    Parent
    Well, combine the (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by brodie on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:05:02 PM EST
    Chief Joints with the Spooks at CIA, and you've got your additional co-equal branch.  At times, maybe a branch more co-equal than the others.

    Parent
    What he said n/t (none / 0) (#23)
    by BTAL on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:13:40 PM EST
    Someone seems to have a little (5.00 / 7) (#38)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:25:42 PM EST
    problem with judicial temperament. And it's not the new woman on the court.

    Parent
    Comment of the week (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:27:59 PM EST
    I kind of sympathize with him. The Pres. (none / 0) (#5)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 12:36:38 PM EST
    could and did criticize Citizens United in a different forum.  Why the need to repeat that criticism at the State of the Union?  I suppose the President could tell the Solicitor General--I will handle this SCOTUS argument.

    Parent
    Glenn, as usual (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 12:45:37 PM EST
    nails it :

    It's not actually a unique event of oppression or suffering to have to sit and listen to a speech where someone criticizes you and you can't respond that very moment (but are able, as Roberts just proved, to respond freely afterward).  Even in the State of the Union Address, it's completely customary for the President to criticize the Congress or the opposition party right to their faces, while members of his party stand and cheer vocally, and -- as the reaction to Joe Wilson's outburst demonstrated -- "decorum" dictates that the targets of the criticism sit silently and not respond until later, once the speech is done.  That's how speeches work.  Only Supreme Court Justices would depict their being subjected to such a mundane process as an act of grave unfairness (and, of course, Roberts' comrade, Sam Alito, could not even bring himself to abide by that decorum).

    What makes Roberts' petty, self-absorbed grievance all the more striking is that this is what judges do all the time.  It's the essence of the judicial branch.  Federal judges are basically absolute tyrants who rule over their courtroom and those in it with virtually no restraints.  They can and do scold, criticize, berate, mock, humiliate and threaten anyone who appears before their little fiefdoms -- parties, defendants, lawyers, witnesses, audience members -- and not merely "decorum," but the force of law (in the form of contempt citations or other penalties), compels the target to sit silently and not respond.  In fact, lawyers can be, and have been, punished just for publicly criticizing a judge.



    Parent
    I thought Greenwald was spot-on re (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 12:58:17 PM EST
    justification of invasion and destruction of Iraq as being for purpose of awarding the Iraqis a democracy.

    Parent
    As usual he cuts right to the quick of it (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:15:43 PM EST
    And Roberts still needs a whaaaaaaambulance.

    Parent
    I think the ruling deserved (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:19:19 PM EST
    a deeper and wider criticism.  I think they got exactly what they deserve.

    Parent
    The thing that bothers Roberts and Alito (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:22:38 PM EST
    is that they love to claim that they represent the people, but really they are only about Conservative power.  They ruled as they did to create more Conservative power, but they also ruled to silence that little bothersome man/woman that gets in the way of their power all the time.  The Conservatives keep feeding their voting block though that they are about the little man, and Roberts and Alito got caught in the act of silencing that person in the name of power.

    Parent
    Surprise Surprise (2.33 / 3) (#153)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:33:48 PM EST
    Why does in not surprise me that you would sympathize with, and come to the defense of poor Chief Justice Roberts. Of course it is a double dip for you since you also get to bash the "empty suit" too. I guess this episode is along the lines of: 'you can dress him up but can't take him out', no manners.

    And what a wimp, no spine...  oh wait.... that was last weeks episode.

    lol

    Parent

    oculus doesn't deserve that n/t (5.00 / 3) (#167)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:44:12 PM EST
    Really? (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:51:26 PM EST
    Why is that? It is spot on, imo.

    Is it because her snide indirect pro law enforcement, and anti Obama, comments are usually so dry that they are only a gentle nod and subtle wink are appropriate?

    Parent

    I've always assumed that (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:56:23 PM EST
    oculus saw law enforcement issues from the middle because she was actually responsible at one time for the law being enforced.  And if she wasn't it was her ass.  I know where I tend to push social issues concerning law enforcement, but I've never had to actually be responsible for the law being enforced and I've never been responsible for the safety of the community that those enforced laws enable....or don't.  Obviously, it isn't a job for whimps.

    Parent
    I think it is because (none / 0) (#183)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:58:51 PM EST
    her comments about Obama when they are critical are not ad hominem.  

    Parent
    Yeah Right (2.33 / 3) (#188)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:02:19 PM EST
    No ad hominem because most here know Obama is an empty suit, no spine and unqualified to lead..  Hilarious.

    And even more hilarious because when Obama shows spine, he is what is the word? Uppity, or is it arrogant? No class?

    Parent

    professorial (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:17:34 PM EST
    I am trying to remember (none / 0) (#158)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:36:52 PM EST
    why I used to dislike you.

    Parent
    Squeaky? Come on man (none / 0) (#171)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:48:11 PM EST
    What gives?  Bad day?

    Parent
    Huh? (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:54:30 PM EST
    Sorry I cannot support Roberts for whining about being criticized for radical right wing judicial activism. And can hardly believe that anyone here, even the most anti Obama democrat would defend Oculus's comment...

    WTF is in order here big time, imo.

    Parent

    Im sorry that was (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:56:57 PM EST
    not an insult.  I agree with you.
    its just that I dont remember doing that much in the past.
    sorry.  lame attempt at humor.


    Parent
    She felt a little sorry for him (5.00 / 2) (#182)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:57:28 PM EST
    perhaps some empathy...but she didn't start a PAC or anything.

    Parent
    LOL (3.00 / 2) (#190)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:06:45 PM EST
    but she didn't start a PAC or anything
    Who knows what she does in her spare time...  

    And I am empathy-less here. I know that many have come to see oculus as a friend, but I do not have it in me to ever feel sorry for that right wing pro torture creep or anyone who defends him on TL..

    Parent

    Wheee..... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by desertswine on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 12:49:16 PM EST
    free weefee?  Maybe?

    I'll buy that!

    It'll make it easier to activate all of (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:24:34 PM EST
    our webcams that way :)

    Parent
    Ya see that... (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:30:10 PM EST
    the man was right all along, you can fight terror with duct tape...only they didn't tell us it was for use in covering the built-in webcam!

    Parent
    Beware of (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by Zorba on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:22:56 PM EST
    geeks bearing gifts?  ;-)

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#41)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:27:04 PM EST
    nothing is free

    Parent
    O No.... (none / 0) (#176)
    by desertswine on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:54:19 PM EST
    I forgot about the webcams.
    I can only go online now while wearing one of those Lone Ranger masks.

    Parent
    NYPD at it again... (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 12:59:26 PM EST
    criminalizing an errant snowball..."you don't know who I am".

    Lemme break it down for the suckas in blue...when you get hit with a snowball, throw one right back.  Don't pull your piece and a power trip...get over yourselves, its a farkin' snowball for christs sake.  And to the Bronx DA, I guess we should cut your budget if this is the crap you bring into court.

    Outrageous! (none / 0) (#49)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:30:27 PM EST
    Citizens United was a topical decision (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by KeysDan on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:01:04 PM EST
    that will affect the state of the union. The president's concerns are justified and presenting them in the presence of the justices was the "transparent" thing to do--unlike the way in which the Court conducts its business.    Chief Justice Roberts is not even a good winner. His way, after all,  is the one that will prevail.

    Ralph Kiner.... (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    is such a gem, and represents to me all that is good and holy about the national pastime.  

    While others were tuned in to the Massa freak show on Beck, I caught some of the replay of the Mets spring training game yesterday, and was most pleased to hear old man Kiner in the booth. He's lost more than a step, getting most names wrong and speaking very slowly, yet it still gets no better than Ralph Kiner color commentary.  The old stories, the vast knowledge of the game...he's simply the man, an uber-class act.  I hope he has an open invite for the regular season and we hear him often.  NY loves Ralph Kiner!

     

    We have Jerry Coleman, who played (none / 0) (#19)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:08:28 PM EST
    with Joe DiMaggio.  Talk about stories.  And he has lots of trouble with names.  But living history.  Always points out two hands on a catch are the way to go.  Didn't have long relievers, set-up men, closers.  Why back in his day a pitcher threw the whole game.

    Parent
    Does Jerry.. (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:13:49 PM EST
    still do all the Padres' games?  If so, thats impressive.  

    Ralph was talking about Bob Feller a bit yesterday...wish I coulda seen that guy pitch, Ralph said he was the best he ever faced.

    Parent

    The Heater from Van Meter (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:28:31 PM EST
    An Iowa legend--and the first player to leave his career to serve in the Armed Forces following Pearl Harbor.  

    Parent
    Amen to that (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Farmboy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:39:01 PM EST
    To hear Ralph tell it... (none / 0) (#66)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:40:30 PM EST
    he was a god among men.

    Best I ever seen live had to be Dr. K circa 1985...you could see the knees knockin' in the batters box from the nosebleeds with Doc on the hill.

    Parent

    Dodger Fan (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by mmc9431 on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:07:47 PM EST
    I watched Koufax in his prime. He was better than good. Only thing  that bothers me is that he's 75 years old now. How did he get so old and I didn't! I'm still in denial that the athletes, singers and actor I admired are all senior citizens now.

    Parent
    Where does the time go? (none / 0) (#101)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:18:50 PM EST
    Koufax: how can you argue with those numbers?

    They say that when he was really on - and it's been attested to by more than one person - his heater used to actually rise as it was coming into the strike zone.

    And also, from what I've observed, a total class act who could've milked his notoriety endlessly if he had wanted to, but instead chooses to lead a quiet, almost contemplative existence far away from the proverbial limelight.

    Parent

    Sandy is still out there... (none / 0) (#102)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:18:52 PM EST
    trying to make lemonade out of the Mets' lemons every spring as a roving instructor.

    Parent
    Hey! (none / 0) (#110)
    by mmc9431 on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:33:31 PM EST
    He's trying to work miracles for the Dodgers too. He spent time with Kershaw this spring. He also had the class to drop the Dodgers when Murdock bought them. That alone makes him a winner in my book.

    Parent
    Well... (none / 0) (#79)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:49:33 PM EST
    ...he is a Scorpio in addition to being an Iowan.  

    Boy, picking the best I've ever seen live is a hard one.  The Big Unit was pretty darn scary even to just watch pitch--can't imagine standing in the batters box against him.  But then there was the mastery of Jim Palmer.  Greg Maddux was pretty fun to watch as well.  

    Parent

    Somehow... (none / 0) (#90)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:01:05 PM EST
    the Mets always seemed to hit Randy Johnson pretty good, but we didn't have to face him in his Seattle prime, only the Diamondback days.

    Maddux looked so hittable, yet wasn't.  A master corner-painter.

    Wish I coulda seen Palmer, Seaver, Gibson, Jenkins and the greats of the 60's-70's...so good they had to lower the mound to level the playing field.

    Parent

    One pitcher, one game (none / 0) (#92)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:02:50 PM EST
    when he's got his control together: Steve Carlton.

    With a lot of very close seconds.

    Parent

    I saw (none / 0) (#150)
    by CoralGables on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:30:47 PM EST
    Gooden pitch on July 4, 1985 in the old Atlanta Fulton County Stadium. Due to multiple rain delays there wasn't much Gooden but what a game. 16-13 in 19 innings and 37 left on base. The game ended about 4 in the morning but not before Rick Camp, with a career batting average of .074, hit the only homerun of his career to tie the game in the bottom of the 18th.

    Parent
    The first pitcher (none / 0) (#88)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:57:08 PM EST
    to be "clocked" (at around 98, if I remember correctly), by some apparatus used by the military.

    Broke into the majors at eighteen and never looked back, just ahead to Cooperstown.

    Parent

    Yep... (none / 0) (#98)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:16:22 PM EST
    98 mph...those who faced both Feller and Ryan said Feller threw harder, which would put him at around 102 mph when he really let 'er rip.

    The guy fanned 15 in his first mlb start at 18...thats nuts.

    Parent

    lol (none / 0) (#104)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:22:40 PM EST
    I still remember Ryan when he was just coming in out of the bullpen for the Mets. What I remember most is the visible cloud of dust from Jerry Grote's mitt, whenever he caught that live (too live) fastball.

    Parent
    One of the things... (none / 0) (#106)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:27:28 PM EST
    ...I got after Dad passed was his Bob Feller autographed baseball.  With my Brooks Robinson one, I've got two HOF's.

    Parent
    Jerry no longer does every game (none / 0) (#61)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:38:35 PM EST
    or even every inning of the games he selects to broadcast.  A few complaints about another Pads announcer saying: what did you do today Jerry?  And Jerry talking about walking his dog.

    Parent
    Now what kind of... (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:43:39 PM EST
    arsehole would complain about that?  The man is a legend, if he wants to talk about walking his dog you should listen and like it:)

    Half the time its hard to tell exactly what Ralph is talkin' about, but thats part of the fun. Then he hits you with some baseball wisdom that blows your doors off.

    Parent

    I miss (none / 0) (#29)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:17:18 PM EST
    Summer days and listening to Ernie Harwell call the Tigers' games.  It took me years to figure out that he was making it up when he said "And a lady from Harrison Township is taking that ball home!" I thought he really somehow knew where members of the crowd were from!

    Parent
    Lets hope... (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:28:14 PM EST
    all our squads find themselves in a pennant race...hope springs eternal!

    Parent
    My brother informs me the Cards and (none / 0) (#65)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:39:25 PM EST
    Fish are playing near his FL condo and he has a ticket.  Oh joy.

    Parent
    I would love (none / 0) (#70)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:42:54 PM EST
    To be out sitting in the sun, eating a hot dog, in a baseball stadium, than sitting here in a conference room reading documents on the computer all day!

    Parent
    I second that... (none / 0) (#83)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:52:17 PM EST
    but don't forget the ice cold beer!

    Parent
    I'll trade you (none / 0) (#113)
    by mmc9431 on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:42:06 PM EST
    I'd be more than happy to give you Hawk Harellson. I can't even watch the White Sox because of him. (Even with Steve Stone doing color). His good old boy manner drives me up a wall.

    Parent
    Why does it take the comedians (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:04:40 PM EST
    to conduct real interviews these days? Stewart grills Bush speechwriter and Liz Cheney fan Marc Thiessen.

    THE EARLY DAZE, part 7 (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:02:47 PM EST
    Thank you, Dadler (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by Zorba on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:17:30 PM EST
    I'm really enjoying your series!

    Parent
    Dennis Kucinich (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by DancingOpossum on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:36:50 PM EST
    ...is currently the only reason I would ever consider voting for a Democrat again. His current move is going to force all of our "representatives" to state exactly where they stand on the issue of endless war:

    Liberals in the House, who have spent much of the past year complaining that other congressional Democrats and the White House are insufficiently progressive, will get a chance this week to vent about one of their biggest concerns: the war in Afghanistan.

    House leaders will allow three hours of formal debate, probably Wednesday, on an antiwar resolution written by Rep. Dennis Kucinich (Ohio), one of the leading antiwar voices in Congress. The resolution, which has 16 co-sponsors, calls for the United States to remove all of its troops from Afghanistan in 30 days -- or by the end of the year, if it is determined that trying to do so in a month would be too dangerous.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/08/AR2010030803787.html

    h/t to Justin Raimondo at antiwar.com

    Bravo to Kucinich. (none / 0) (#165)
    by lentinel on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:42:05 PM EST
    I was just reading this in the Times. There was a joint press conference with Ahmadinejah and Karzai (!) the other day.

    Ahmadinejad said, "... the United States uses the excuse of fighting "terrorists that they themselves created, supported and financed" to maintain its occupation of Afghanistan".

    I agree with Ahmadinejad.

    Bush put the democrats to sleep.
    Obama has kept them dozing.

    Maybe Kucinich can wake them up.
    He reminds me of what a democrat used to be.

    Parent

    Now, on Afghanistan (none / 0) (#181)
    by brodie on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:57:18 PM EST
    I'm much more in sympathy with DK than with blocking HCR.  Not that I think this one has a chance in heck of passing.  But we've been there too long already, and endless occupations of countries in that region is not helpful to our worldwide reputation.  Not to mention the enormous cost to us.  Good for Dennis here.

    Parent
    since (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:14:37 PM EST
    bickering about commenters' online personalities is really not very interesting to me, here is an article about torture and cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment from the New Scientist.  It's mostly interesting for saying that cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment are indistinguishable from torture.

    My thought is if you are endlessly trying to justify why what you are doing is not cruel, inhuman, degrading, or torture, you should probably not be doing it.

    Can't Help Yourself? (1.00 / 1) (#197)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:24:42 PM EST
    since bickering about commenters' online personalities is really not very interesting to me.....

    IOW- I will not engage with other commenters that I disagree with in a direct way because it is undignified. But I will slam them in a way that makes me look like a saint, because it makes me feel superior.  

    Pretty lame, imo.

    Parent

    Others might (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 12:35:04 PM EST
    say that Obama doesn't understand there are three equal branches of government.

    In case he was confused, Henry Waxman reminded him this AM.

    How so? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Farmboy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:00:24 PM EST
    By the WH wanting a vote by March 18th?

    Parent
    By Waxman basically saying (none / 0) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:03:00 PM EST
    they need more time.

    Parent
    Ah. Thanks. (none / 0) (#15)
    by Farmboy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:04:16 PM EST
    Just checked U.S. Constitution Articles I-III. (none / 0) (#16)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    Did not spot the word "equal."

    Parent
    A lawyer to the bone :) (none / 0) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:23:31 PM EST
    And you probably (none / 0) (#121)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:53:06 PM EST
    didn't find that the sun comes up every morning...

    I mean, how could an UNequal court tell the Imperial Presidency that it is wrong?

    Parent

    Progressives Agree: Jane Hamsher is a PUMA (none / 0) (#13)
    by Dan the Man on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:01:38 PM EST
    See Oliver Willis and Matthew Yglesias.

    Quote 1


    As Matt Yglesias points out here, that site is effectively a PUMA-style operation whose opinions are nothing like most of the people on the actual left.

    Quote 2


    I wish that FDL agreed with me and Chait and Paul Krugman and the SEIU and the NAACP about health care rather than taking its counterproductive dead-ender stance. But the fact of the matter is that on this issue they represent a rather marginal point of view and I don't see any real evidence that there's major support for their view.


    Take that, little missy! (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:06:11 PM EST
    How dare she (5.00 / 4) (#21)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:11:04 PM EST
    Really, how could she speak out against moderate to conservative policies and positions?  Good on them for putting her in her place.

    Parent
    Spinning so fast we're dizzy (5.00 / 5) (#46)
    by mmc9431 on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:28:52 PM EST
    That seems to be the current strategy. Paint progressives that are opposed to the bill as far left radicals.

    Interesting, a year ago the public option was the moderate stance. Extension of Medicare was also considered moderate. The majority of the country approved of either of these options.

    Now they're far flung left wing radical ideas that will destroy the party. What a difference a year makes.

    Parent

    Big eye-roll (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:23:16 PM EST
    if only I too could be included in the galaxy of Left heavy-hitters, like the SEIU and Paul Krugman and Matt Yglesias, according to Matt Yglesias.

    Anyway, all the "shut up and compromise" folks are absolutely useless.  As (gasp!) Firedoglake reports today:

    I actually get the sense that Stupak is losing some steam. The national media has begun to fact-check his claims about abortion funding, finding that they have little merit. The Senate bill simply does not directly subsidize abortions; in fact, it's practically as restrictive as his own amendment. Stupak's drive for his own language reflects personal vanity and a lust for power, more than anything. And he's started to lose members of his coalition - fellow Michigander Dale Kildee backed off and now will vote for the bill (I'll update the whip count later):

    Legitimizing Stupak by being so willing to give him what he wants is all Klein, Yglesias, and Booman are doing.  He deserves to be attacked and the pro-choice position deserves a vigorous defense at this moment.  It shouldn't be traded away like it doesn't matter.  The way this bill treats abortion is going to be resonate for years.

    Parent

    Of course, this quote also (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by dk on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:26:07 PM EST
    points out that the Nelson language is basically just as bad as Stupuk, also deflating the argument that beating back Stupak is some sort of "win" for equal rights as long as the Nelson language stays in.

    Parent
    I have not found many people (none / 0) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:26:59 PM EST
    outside these threads who ever expected it to be.
    I said a couple of weeks ago Stupak was going no where.

    and I was correct.


    Parent

    well (5.00 / 5) (#85)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:54:38 PM EST
    as andgarden pointed out before in a different context, if it is such a sure thing, why haven't they already voted?  If they have the votes without him, why not vote today?

    I know getting the reconciliation fix together is an issue impeding progress, but this is as well.

    Parent

    I really couldnt tell you (none / 0) (#86)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:55:44 PM EST
    but I am still willing to bet they pass it.

    Parent
    I think the bill will pass too n/t (none / 0) (#94)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:07:22 PM EST
    I think so, also -- and Dems will live to rue the (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by jawbone on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:37:30 PM EST
    day.  

    We the people will just love buying junk insurance so we can avoid paying fines and being hassled by the IRS.

    Corporate Shakedown, courtesy of Obama and the Dem Senate.

    Government Muscle, again, courtesy of Obama and the Dems Senate.

    And paying that excise tax on what Obama has labeled "Cadillac insurance." I mean, who wants to have savings?

    During the primaries, I said I hoped I would have to eat my words, that Obama would turn out to be a great liberal president. It's turned out far worse than I ever expected.

    I'd be glad to eat my words about Obama's Big Health Insurance (aka, Industry Players) Profit Protection Plan. BHIP-PPP. But....

    Parent

    They may, especially in this economy (none / 0) (#174)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:51:40 PM EST
    But those running this show refuse to acknowledge that possibility.

    Parent
    They may, especially in this economy (none / 0) (#175)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:52:05 PM EST
    But those running this show refuse to acknowledge that possibility.

    Parent
    I only wish there was as much (none / 0) (#51)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:31:05 PM EST
    talk and energy going into repealing the existing ban on federal health care money going towards abortions. Back to the topic of political bargaining, if that had been the liberal opening position, Stupak and Nelson's reinforcements of that ban  would not be possible. The current status quo could have been the liberal 'concession'.

    Parent
    but, but, but (5.00 / 5) (#156)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:35:21 PM EST
    then the Republicans would have called Matt and Oliver and the Democratic coalition mean, mean names and insinuated they were "baby killers."

    The irony for me was yesterday reading the Catholic diocese has gotten caught up in a male prostitution ring. I can't believe THESE are the people the Democrats believe have the moral authority to lecture women on right and wrong and that Democrats have chosen to help them in craft the health care bill to begin with.

    Parent

    I thought we (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:15:10 PM EST
    were not using the P word anymore

    Parent
    or is that supposed (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:16:20 PM EST
    to be just me

    Parent
    Presidential order threatened but (none / 0) (#58)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:35:55 PM EST
    not yet issued?

    Parent
    I forgot (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:34:38 PM EST
    You are correct.  I forgot.

    Never mind my response.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:15:17 PM EST
    If Oliver and Matt say it, then it MUST be true!  :)

    Parent
    It's a matter of circular logic (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Farmboy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:22:43 PM EST
    The A-list bloggers who get TV face time are assumed by the talking heads and news readers in the media to represent the entire "left" because they are receiving face time on TV. How do know this to be true? Because they are on TV themselves - and that makes them important.

    Parent
    correction (none / 0) (#69)
    by Farmboy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:42:13 PM EST
    The second sentence should read: How do the talking heads know this to be true?

    the words were all there in my head, honest...

    Parent

    Well, Yglesias never (5.00 / 6) (#62)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:38:43 PM EST
    pointed out any such thing about Jane - never even used the dreaded "P" word, but I guess Willis decided to use it for much the same reason it was used here; it's almost like he wanted to use another word, but decided the "P" word was less inflammatory.  Not a smart move, in my opinion.

    Yglesias did, on the other hand, reach back into Donald Rumsfeld's lexicon and liken anyone who isn't shaking their pom-poms for the legislation a "dead-ender."

    Nice.

    They've all got their marching orders, and it's playing out tactically just the way the Iraq war was sold.  And, I fear it will end the same way.

    Maybe this is the transparency Obama promised - being able to see people for who they really are, instead of who they purport(ed) to be.

    Parent

    I think Jane Hamsher gets to decide (5.00 / 4) (#147)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:28:23 PM EST
    what she is and isn't, not Matt or Oliver. The boiz, as usual think that they can bully Jane in to cooperation. I hope she hands them their heads.

    I'd be more than happy to have Jane decide that "unity" isn't worth giving up principles she believes in though.

    Parent

    Why's That (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:41:24 PM EST
    Is Hamsher so special that others are not allowed to opine about where she falls in the political spectrum. Isn't that one pays for being a public figure.

    IMO, Jane Hamsher does not need you to defend her from other peoples opinions, right or wrong.

    Parent

    Criticizing another blogger (none / 0) (#30)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:18:13 PM EST
    for extremism when MY comes up with this:

    {Kucinich sides with Insurance Industry}

    [But Dennis Kucinich has made clear that's not the case, that he wants to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Sarah Palin, John Boehner, and Rush Limbaugh in killing the bill.]

    Even better, boys linking to each other... echo chamber.

    hahahaha!  A PUMA!!!

    Parent

    you are going (none / 0) (#32)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:21:34 PM EST
    to find that opinion rather wide spread Im afraid.

    outside, I mean.


    Parent

    Thanks for the laugh (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:28:49 PM EST
    The idea that people opposed a bill written by the insurance industry are standing arm in arm with said industry---priceless.

    Parent
    lets see (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:30:08 PM EST
    you want to stop it (for your reasons, whatever they are) and they want to stop it.

    how, exactly, is that anything besides "standing arm and arm"

    Parent

    This is the argument that prevents (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:34:27 PM EST
    people from actually getting representation.  This is the argument that gives me Stupak.  I will not go along with such silliness either.  You either acknowledge the reason why someone will not do what you want them to do and be honest about it all, or you are nothing more than intellectually dishonest.

    Parent
    I responded to this comment (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:36:40 PM EST
    [But Dennis Kucinich has made clear that's not the case, that he wants to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Sarah Palin, John Boehner, and Rush Limbaugh in killing the bill.]

    of which every single word is entirely true.


    Parent

    You know Kucinich hasn't "made it clear (5.00 / 8) (#128)
    by esmense on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:58:19 PM EST
    that he wants to stand shoulder-to-shoulder" with the Right Wing. He is fighting this dangerous, conservative plan as a Progressive.

    People who insist we must betray women and working people, and denigrate progressive principles, to pass this plan the health insurance industry wants, may or may not actually believe they are progressives -- but, if they do, they are progressives who are getting the wool pulled over their eyes, being played for fools, and getting taken for a ride.

    The insurance industry I'm sure will thank you as they laugh all the way to the bank.  

    Parent

    if must feel really good (none / 0) (#129)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:00:08 PM EST
    to be in the 10% or so who are not getting the wool pulled over their eyes.

    Parent
    I did health care marketing for 20 years (5.00 / 4) (#142)
    by esmense on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:20:12 PM EST
    I know quite a bit about the history of health care, health insurance and health reform in this country.

    In my experience most Americans, probably not even 10%, know much about that history, or understand why and how we got to where we are today.

    If you knew a little bit more about it, you too might be a little more cynical about the assumptions on which this plan is based, as well as about the players who are pushing it.

    Parent

    Actually it's an outright lie. (4.57 / 7) (#64)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:39:14 PM EST
    It's the same reasoning which said that a vote for Kerry in 2004 was tantamount to support for Al Qaeda.
    Frankly, I think YOU stand shoulder to shoulder with Republicans, because you want the Dems saddled with a horrible bill which will lead to a massacre at the polls this fall.
    Hell, there's more evidence of Obama standing with Republicans than Kucinich.

    Parent
    The Dems' will get massacred if they don't (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by tworivers on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:32:38 PM EST
    pass a bill.  They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.  Too bad they bargained so poorly.  If they had started by arguing for single payer, they might have been in a good position to settle for a robust public option as a compromise. Yes, Republicans would have screamed "Socialism", but guess what?  The Republicans were going to scream Socialism at virtually any meaningful health care reform ideas.  It's what they do.

    Exacerbating matters was the fact that Obama let Baucus drag out the process over the summer and never came out strongly in support of the public option (he paid some lip service to the PO, but never put any real effort into getting it incoporated into the bill.  His support for it seemed half-hearted at best).

    All this being said, I think I still want to see this bill pass (hopefully the excise tax issue will get rectified - that is a particularly bitter pill).  Amongst all the crapola/giveaways to the insurance industry, there are some good things it does accomplish.  

    Plus, in my humble and oftentimes misguided opinion, anybody who believes that

    A) there is the political will at this point to scrap this bill and then start all over again and from scratch

    and

    B) that the end result of this starting from scratch will be a better, more liberal bill

    is probably deluding themselves.  I could be wrong about this.


    Parent

    In fairness to Congressional Dems, they did not (5.00 / 3) (#185)
    by jawbone on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:00:00 PM EST
    take single payer and/or Medicare for All "off the table."

    Obama did that.

    This is his bill, written under Baucus's direction by Baucus's special aide, Liz Fowler, who was a Wellpoint VP for a couple years. Obama named Baucus's former chief of staff, Jim Messina, who had special emphasis on health insurers, to be one of his WH ass't chiefs of staff, with special emphasis on health insurers!

    What a lovely, closely knit group. Health insurance reform written by a health insurer vice president. Must have made communication very, very easy. And Obama could claim there were none of his fingerprints on that Senate bill. Why, he left it Congress to do -- not his fault.

    No Kennedy staffers, however. No public option, no Medicare buy-in. No single payer. No real controls on health insurers.

    Several secret, behind-cloed-doors deals with Big Health Industry Players, however.

    And when will the real problems with providing health CARE be addressed???

    Parent

    About the downsides of passing the (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:26:35 PM EST
    bill: wasn't one of the messages of Coakley's loss that this bill cost votes?
    Sure, there were many factors in her loss, but union and female voter dissatisfaction with the HCR bill were among those reasons.

    Parent
    I dont disagree (none / 0) (#154)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:35:00 PM EST
    with a single word of that.


    Parent
    That's a reasonable comment; (none / 0) (#196)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:22:46 PM EST
    it's much better than saying you're a Republican if you don't like the bill.
    Mostly I agree with you, but I'm not quite convinced that passing the bill will be a political victory.

    Parent
    fwiw (none / 0) (#199)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:27:00 PM EST
    neither am I.  but I still want it passed because it is the right thing to do.

    Parent
    Ah.. I'm even less convinced that (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:29:00 PM EST
    passing the bill is the right thing to do, by itself; however, I'd feel better if I thought the bill would help Democrats in November.

    Parent
    see comment (none / 0) (#67)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:41:07 PM EST
    #60

    Parent
    I can understand if (none / 0) (#71)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:43:05 PM EST
    a number of legislators want to change their vote on the HCR bill to something that ideolically doesn't match up with who they are or who their constituency voted in.  But I will not make such arguments that anybody who isn't for it is the same POS devil to get my way on any one piece of legislation because rubberstamping brigades have brought us a destroyed economy and one war lately that we still don't know what the hell we are doing there.

    Parent
    well if you want my opinion (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:46:54 PM EST
    of Dennis, I think he is worse.  the others are (probably) acting based on what they believe.  even if what they believe is stopping Obama from getting any win.
    in my opinion Dennis has no convictions other than positioning himself for another absurd ego maniacal presidential run.

    IMO he and Nader are both below contempt.
     

    Parent

    now its understandable (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:38:34 PM EST
    that people do not want to acknowledge or admit who they are standing shoulder to shoulder with in wanting to kill this bill but its rather undeniable.

    Parent
    No it isn't (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:43:57 PM EST
    And the next time you find yourself in such a position you may want to self reflect.

    Parent
    we disagree (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:50:40 PM EST
    fact is I find myself in agreement with republicans from time to time, when they actually have ideas, but I am not going to set my hair on fire when someone tells me I am in agreement with them.

    I consider it obvious.

    Parent

    The obvious difference which you (none / 0) (#87)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:56:31 PM EST
    completely elide is that the goal of Jane et. al. is to get a bill passed, while Republicans have the opposite goal. Now, they may be happy if the Democrats pass a lousy bill, but the clearest political victory is no bill.
    Your argument doesn't allow for the possibility of negotiations at all.
    What some people are saying is that if the bill is not good enough, they won't support it.
    I've learned from BTD that this is something called NEGOTIATION.


    Parent
    Repubs are going to have a field day w/ ads (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by jawbone on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:02:45 PM EST
    against the Dems health insurance BAILOUT.

    Against the mandates and excise taxes.

    They wouldn't do badly to follow the Ally Bank ads -- about the cheated littled kids who know they're being treated unfairly.

    Parent

    Yesterday I learned Rep. Stupak (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:20:19 PM EST
    was a Michigan Highway Patrol officer in his prior life.  Is this relevant?  Probably not!

    Parent
    I might be relevant in understanding (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:27:29 PM EST
    why he's such a self important egotistical judgemental control junkie a-hole :)

    Parent
    Now, I have to disagree with (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:42:36 PM EST
    at least the optics of that. Were Nader and Bush standing 'arm in arm' because they both opposed Al Gore? I doubt it. I get the whole 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' point you are making, but I view it as an irony, not a design.

    Parent
    irony is easily lost (none / 0) (#184)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:59:30 PM EST
    here lately it seems.

    Parent
    How many things are wrong with your (4.40 / 5) (#54)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:34:04 PM EST
    argument?
    Nah, too many to count.
    Let's just say that Bush-style "you're with us or you're agin us" rhetoric is really tiresome.
    The fact is, YOU support a bill which will give the insurance companies millions of new customers, balanced by toothless promises of regulation.
    The fact that you can't directly defend the bill  pretty much says it all. You only say "you're the enemy---I can't hear you..nyah nyah"

    Parent
    Kinda makes you long for (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:49:38 PM EST
    an "Ignore" button, doesn't it?

    That's my reaction, anyway...I am all for full-throated debate on the merits of the legislation; I think debate hones and refines arguments, and if done with some respect, can actually open a mind or two - even one's own!

    But I don't consider the constant baiting that you've pointed out to serve any function other than to provide grade school-level entertainment for the person who generally pushes the first button.

    I don't know, maybe we're making the mistake of countering at the wrong level; for some reason, I've wondered if "I'm rubber - you're glue; whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you" might be more appropriate at times.

    Parent

    What is the point of writing the same (4.00 / 4) (#68)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:42:03 PM EST
    comment 10 times? Is it to show that you are standing shoulder to shoulder with someOne? We already know that. Frankly, you're being extremely rude.

    Parent
    Jeralyn (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:43:49 PM EST
    this is how arguments start.  I am ignoring this person and will continue to but I have not been rude.  I have an opinion.  I believe you said that was allowed.

    am I wrong.

    Parent

    I'm telling (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:49:15 PM EST
    It's..... Dan the Man's fault!  :)

    Parent
    have I been rude (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:51:08 PM EST
    site moderator?


    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#96)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:10:48 PM EST
    Repetitive maybe, but in no way rude.  Anyways... it's not you it's Dan.  Repeat after me..Dan did it.

    Parent
    Dan (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:17:20 PM EST
    absolutely did it.
    and as far as being repetitive, so have the incoming.

    Parent
    Do you need a waaambulance? (4.00 / 3) (#84)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:52:53 PM EST
    I said it's rude to say the exact same thing 10 times, given that you are essentially calling people political traitors. The fact that you are unable to develop your argument beyond this simplistic claim pretty much shows that you don't have one.

    Parent
    By the way, I just want to say that I (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:57:47 PM EST
    have nothing personal against you. I'm not even strongly opposed to the current HCR bill---I think it's got pluses and minuses.
    What I object to is your Manicheism.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#89)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:59:26 PM EST
    Whatever arm twisting that gets it done :)

    Parent
    and if you dont think (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:30:44 PM EST
    I am correct about the opinion being wide spread you should really get out more.

    Parent
    For the record (5.00 / 4) (#75)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:46:21 PM EST
    there is little evidence among members of the Democratic party voting constituency that we are anything other than fractured at this point.  You find those you agree with, I find those I agree with, everyone finds others they agree with...and there's plenty of folks scattered all over this landscape.

    Parent
    the "leftists" (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:48:50 PM EST
    for killing the bill are not all that scattered.   they are pretty localized actually.

    Parent
    You'll just go all day (5.00 / 3) (#91)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:01:11 PM EST
    won't you?  If anyone or anything is pretty localized it is you and your specific hatreds :)

    Parent
    I honestly dont know what (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:14:31 PM EST
    you are referring to.  whatever "specific hatreds" I have, have nothing to do with any comment in this thread.  

    the one you replied to is a simple observation.  the people on the left who actually want to kill this bill are not widely spread.  they will be found on a few sites.

    most liberal blogs and commenters are at this point pushing pulling or getting out of the way.

    and yes, when attacked I will defend myself.
    Im funny like that.

    Parent

    Well Howard Dean is at (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:17:43 PM EST
    the very top of the Orange List this minute and a huge sumb*tch.  And everyone who rec'd this POS diary is a scumsucking loser :)

    Parent
    Dean is a hero (none / 0) (#108)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:28:17 PM EST
    I have actually thought for a while that in the end a public option will be included in the final bill.
    because of people like Dean and BTD.

    not quite willing to take bets on that one quite yet but I will let everyone know when I am.


    Parent

    So your real problem (5.00 / 6) (#109)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:32:15 PM EST
    is with girls?

    Parent
    I dont even know (none / 0) (#111)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:37:47 PM EST
    what that means.

    Parent
    Well, obviously Dean isn't in lockstep (3.66 / 3) (#112)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:40:52 PM EST
    Why hate on Jane so much?

    Parent
    ah (none / 0) (#114)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:43:32 PM EST
    forgive me if I assumed (I have not read FDL for a looooong time) but from both the original posted comment and those that follow it sounded to me like she wanted to kill the bill if A, B or C was not done.

    that is not what either Dean or BTD have said.
    I believe they have actually both been rather vocal about the opposite.

    now, if she is in that group as well I grovel in mortification at omitting her.

    Parent

    She is fighting for a public option (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:45:01 PM EST
    That is what she is fighting for that Willis and Matt are dogging her for and linking to.

    Parent
    Kevin Drum was the first to whup (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:52:40 PM EST
    on her about this...and look, she will lead the charge to a public option that Dean is writing about too without having to overcome any sort of lack of integrity and credibility like Kevin, and Matt, and Ezra, and Oliver will have to overcome once this is passed and people are still suffering and not getting medical care.  This is sort of a no brainer really.  And either she scares them or she intimidates them or why else do all three little boys have to show up and try to gang up on her at once?  What they are afraid of is Hamsher never sold her integrity to the highest bidder and there will be consequences that comes with this healthcare legislation.  Hamsher has placed herself in a position to further help me.  In order to save face, the rest of them will have to argue to eff me over and try to get everyone to forget everything they've written and lobbied for and attacked people for in the past.  So much like what happened arguing for the Iraq War!  You would think that some of this same crowd would have learned something that go around.

    Parent
    but does she want the bill (none / 0) (#122)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:54:32 PM EST
    killed without it?

    Parent
    If she is so marginal and pathetic (5.00 / 3) (#131)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:01:37 PM EST
    and alone in her stances what do you care and what does it matter?

    Parent
    It's because she isn't that you guys (5.00 / 6) (#133)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:03:13 PM EST
    grab YOUR pitchforks and try to fork her to death, all the while spewing how marginal she is.  If she's that damned marginal, what's the boy blogger army showing for war with her about?

    Parent
    And Oliver had to whip out the "P" (5.00 / 4) (#135)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:04:40 PM EST
    word, it's like being on a grade school playground again.

    Parent
    I believe I said (none / 0) (#137)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:05:37 PM EST
    close to the same thing.

    and forgive me but you seem to be trying to make this a male/felmale issue.  which is, as far as I am concerned, ridiculous.  I said the same things about Kucinich in this very thread.


    Parent

    Howard Dean has said (5.00 / 3) (#139)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:12:08 PM EST
    before that this legislation should not pass.  Howard Dean wants a public option too and continues to lobby and fight for one, but I don't see you hating on him at all.  Not one iota.

    Parent
    He has never run a PUMA website though (none / 0) (#140)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:14:17 PM EST
    there are many many (none / 0) (#143)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:22:44 PM EST
    examples of that not being true

    here is one

    Parent

    and if that video is not enough (none / 0) (#146)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:27:23 PM EST
    keep listening.  the next one says the same thing.

    Parent
    Heh, he said it and you know (none / 0) (#192)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:15:48 PM EST
    that he did.  And he said all this extremely unflattery stuff six days ago too but since he isn't a blogger he probably doesn't have any impact, heck even Hamsher is a blogger and she still has no impact <snark>

    Passing the healthcare proposals before Congress will "hang out to dry" every Democratic incumbent running for reelection this fall, Howard Dean said Thursday.

    Dean, a physician by training who's a former chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), said that Democrats in Congress -- and President Barack Obama -- would do themselves more harm than good by passing the current healthcare bill.

    "The plan, as it comes from the Senate, hangs out every Democrat who's running for office to dry -- including the president, in 2012, because it makes him defend a plan that isn't in effect essentially yet," Dean said during an appearance on the liberal Bill Press Radio Show.

    Dean, who has clashed publicly with the White House over the healthcare proposals favored by the administration, said that by passing the bills under consideration, Democrats would essentially be conceding defeat to Republicans.




    Parent
    and he said to kill the bill (none / 0) (#195)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:21:56 PM EST
    on Dec 15th, changed that to if he were a Senator he would not vote for this bill without a Public Option or a Medicare buy-in.  He said last week the only way Democrats can hope to save themselves is by putting a Medicare buy in into this legislation.  But please pass the thing, and remember that the next Republican President will any pull on Congress we get will roll back the Medicaid expansion as soon as and as quickly as possible and it is fully in their power to do so.

    Parent
    but does she want the bill (none / 0) (#118)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:48:10 PM EST
    killed without it?

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 3) (#145)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:26:19 PM EST
    She posted this today:

    Anyway, when I was flying home last year from Netroots Nation, I sat with Kevin Drum. I've always had a good relationship with Kevin since I invited him to the first Kobepallooza in 2005. We talked about health care and I said said I didn't think health care was worth passing if it included a mandate to buy private insurance, but not a public option. He thought it was. But we both knew then where we would wind up. Neither of us has changed our position since then.

    Certainly disagreeing with her is allowed, and can be done so without denigrating her. I don't think either you or BTD denigrate her with your disagreement - you have well reasoned logic for your positions, as does Jane. I myself am still undecided, amazingly enough. I can see the logic of both sides. And it's not like my opinion (go for the fastest way to single payer)  matters to anyone in charge, so I am just watching it unfold at this point.

    I'm sorry people like Yglesias and this Willis guy (who I have never heard of) feel the need to throw words like 'dead-ender' and the P-word around. I know they can be used as a badge of courage, but that is not what he means.

    Parent

    thank you (none / 0) (#149)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:29:45 PM EST
    figured if you got an answer (none / 0) (#160)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:38:22 PM EST
    you wouldn't keep asking ;-)

    Parent
    actually I was (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:49:54 PM EST
    thanking you for saying my problem with her position on healthcare has nothing to do with her plumbing.

    as far as the "answer", I suspected it was being tapped danced around.  and it was apparently.


    Parent

    She writes that she doubts (none / 0) (#123)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:55:16 PM EST
    the House has the votes without a Public Option.  She thinks whipping is a bad idea because this legislation will not make it with mandates and no public option.  It is her opinion.

    Parent
    And this is how she finishes the write up (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:00:35 PM EST
    addressing Drum write up put out there about how she needs to change her stance

    Well, to the extent that we've had any impact at all, it's due to the fact that there is widespread distrust of the Senate health care bill. There's nothing "marginal" about a position reflected by 48% of the public who want Congress to "vote against a health care bill similar to President Obama's" while only 43% want them to vote for it, per Gallup. Support drops further in the Rasmussen poll when the question doesn't include the President's name -- 53% oppose the bill and 42% support it.

    A small group of pundits appear to have misled themselves into believing that the opinions they hold, which echo those of a self-interested DC political class, are widely reflected by the public.

    If that was true, Martha Coakley would be a Senator.




    Parent
    you will forgive me (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:03:51 PM EST
    if I dont take seriously someone who quotes poll numbers that do not take into any account the lies and distortions that have been spread for months about this bill.

    its also a fact that when the actual elements of the bill are explained to people a majority of people want it passed.

    Parent

    A polling of the people is damned (5.00 / 6) (#138)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:09:58 PM EST
    polling of the people.  You don't know who knows what about what and was polled in this polling.  You attempt to speak for everyone when it comes to HCR as if you are directly patched into everyone's nervous systems and everyone's thoughts, and how much they know, and how much they don't know and how stupid what other people want is.  It is almost as if you were God.

    Parent
    And I think if you want to understand (5.00 / 3) (#148)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:28:54 PM EST
    why the American people do not want mandates without a public option to enable real competition in the insuring markets, I think it would be a good idea to reflect upon the fact that one out of six of them is either unemployed or underemployed.  And you are going to force them to pay for something without any real free market forces at work here?  And state and property taxes are going sky high and wages are stagnant or some people have just flat out experienced a scaling back of their wages that appears to be permanent?

    Parent
    so polls are only relevant (none / 0) (#152)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:33:33 PM EST
    When they support your position or what?  this seems to be disintegrating so, please, think whatever you like.  and I will do the same.

    Parent
    I have no idea what you are (none / 0) (#163)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:40:32 PM EST
    referring to now

    Parent
    you quote whatshername (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:45:57 PM EST
    saying 48% dont want this bill passed.
    I was explaining that a majority of those same people, when the specifics are explained to them, do want it passed.

    I can find those numbers if you like.


    Parent

    Go for it (none / 0) (#187)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:02:14 PM EST
    if that is a long (none / 0) (#126)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:56:53 PM EST
    version of wanting the bill killed without a public option you just answered your own question.

    in our opinion that is boneheaded

    Parent

    Who is "our" opinon (5.00 / 3) (#141)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:15:43 PM EST
    You and Matt and Oliver and Kevin and Booman?  That's a crowd batting a 100 on dealing in reality.

    Parent
    all the shouting in the world (1.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:25:35 PM EST
    will not make yours a majority position of the left.

    sorry.


    Parent

    I wasn't shouting just stating fact (5.00 / 2) (#161)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:39:19 PM EST
    And as the polls go, Jane's is the majority position.  I would pass this thing but for Stupak.  And that is probaby only because this household is fully employed and my healthcare needs are covered.  I really have no idea how bad it is out there for everyone else on a deeper level.  But I'm not blind to the realities out there in the real nonblogger world.

    Parent
    I hate to tell you this, Capt., but (5.00 / 6) (#116)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:46:18 PM EST
    the entirety of "the left" will not be found in, and is not represented by, the blogosphere, so your judgment that there is not "widespread" opposition to the bill is not determinative of anything, really; it's just a subjective data point - otherwise known as "an opinion."

    There is clearly an effort being made to rally the left side of the blogosphere around the legislation - and I think that effort is coming from the WH - but if the blogosphere had as much power as some in it think it does, we would have moved both houses of Congress to produce an Improved Medicare For All bill, wouldn't we?  One that would represent truly historic reform, and fulfill what was always the vision for Medicare when it was enacted - that it would be opened up over time to everyone.

    We'd also not have passed immunity for the telecoms, would not have renewed the more odious provisions of the Patriot Act, would have gotten the Employee Free Choice Act passed, seen a much bigger stimulus bill, enacted real financial services reforms and instituted strict regulations - in other words, we would have seen real, liberal results from the even greater majority Democratic Congress we would have managed to elect through our efforts, and real, liberal leadership from our allegedly Democratic president.

    It's great to have a voice, it's great to band toghether and be informed - wouldn't trade that for the world - but if we're being honest, we also have to acknowledge that our power is not as great as some would like to think.

    Parent

    fortunately (none / 0) (#117)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:47:45 PM EST
    I HAVE an ignore button

    Parent
    If you will tell us where it is, (5.00 / 4) (#124)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 02:56:18 PM EST
    we can make good use of it.

    On second thought, I don't want to know you that well.

    Parent

    As our those that are for the bill (5.00 / 3) (#162)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:40:18 PM EST
    Did you have a point? Militarytracy made it pretty clear that the people with specific postions hung out in specific places.

    Although I think I made my point in one of the last threds that you have a tendency to think things are one dimensional when they are in fact not. If you limit your interactions with certain groups of people you'll have to forgive me if I don't consider you and "expert" on them.

    Parent

    I dont have a clue (none / 0) (#169)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:46:46 PM EST
    what you are talking about but there is no need to explain.

    Parent
    Intellectually weak (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:32:51 PM EST
    That comes from being lazy.

    Jane campaigns for Repubs like McCain?  Really?
    Jane hasn't moved on from Clinton?  Really?
    She's still campaigning for Clinton?  Really?
    Jane sympathizes with Palin?  Really?
    Jane has now left the party and is going to avoid the media so she won't be corrupted by psychological warfare?  Really?

    These guys don't even remember the reactionary angst that led some diehard Clinton supporters to abandon the party.

    Parent

    oh trust me (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:34:43 PM EST
    they remember.  we alllll remember.

    Parent
    Too funny (none / 0) (#52)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:31:29 PM EST
    No rose colored glasses for those two, only Jaded lenses please.

    Parent
    Getting away from healthcare for a moment.. (none / 0) (#155)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:35:17 PM EST
    John Conyers' wife, Monica, former president of the Detroit City Council, was sentenced today to 37 months in a federal prison and 2 years supervised probation after pleading guilty last summer to one count of conspiracy to commit bribery stemming from a tie-breaking vote in favor of the controversial waste management contract.

    37 months? (none / 0) (#170)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:47:57 PM EST
    Hope she enjoyed her bribe money. Hardly seems worth taking a chance like that to me. Other people must not share my terror of incarceration, or there would be a lot less crime in this country.

    Parent
    You'd have to have lived with Monica (none / 0) (#178)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:55:40 PM EST
    She could have gotten 5 years. Judge Cohn is a pretty liberal judge, appointed by Jummy Carter, and the fact that he said that her conduct in office "fell woefully short" of the standard expected of public servants, and that she violated basic standards of conduct going back to the book of Exodus says a whole lot.  

    Here's a couple fun Monica Conyers videos:

    Calling Ken Cockerell "Shrek"

    Debating school children

    Parent

    An MJ case (none / 0) (#186)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:01:05 PM EST
    Federal MJ law vs. State MJ law.

    Interesting part of the opinion, since Holder's pronouncement about not going after medical MJ dispensaries has been talked about a great deal on this blog:

    In addition, Defendant relies on certain statements by U.S. Attorney General, Eric Holder. During a press conference on February 24, 2009, in response to a question whether raids of medical marijuana clubs established under state law represented American policy going forward, Holder stated, "No, what the president said during the campaign, you'll be surprised to know, will be consistent with what we'll be doing in law enforcement. He was my boss during the campaign. He is formally and technically and by law my boss now. What he said during the campaign is now American Policy." On March 19, 2009, Holder explained that the Justice Department had no plans to prosecute pot dispensaries that were operating legally under state laws.

    Defendant's reliance on the above-quoted statements is problematic for several reasons. First of all, as pointed out by the Government, Defendant does not state that he personally read or heard these statements prior to engaging in the conduct that forms the basis of this criminal case. Furthermore, the comments by then-candidate Obama and his campaign spokesman cannot be deemed representations of the federal government regarding drug-prosecution policy.

    Although Holder was Attorney General when he made the statements at issue, his statements do not constitute affirmative representations that Defendant would not be prosecuted under federal law. Holder's comment that "what [Obama] said during the campaign is now American Policy" is vague and provides no real guidance as to what the so-called "American Policy" is. Similarly, Holder's statement that the Justice Department "had no plans" to prosecute pot dispensaries that were operating legally under state laws was a loose statement that left open the possibility the Justice Department could change its "plans" or could choose to prosecute medical marijuana dispensaries on a case-by-case basis.

    SNIP

    Even if Obama's and Holder's statements can be viewed as establishing a general policy against prosecuting marijuana dispensaries operating legally under state law, a reasonable person would not rely on these statements as an assurance that he or she would not be prosecuted under federal law. Defendant could have sought specific guidance regarding the applicability of federal law to his situation. However, Defendant admittedly did not contact anyone within the Department of Justice or any other federal agency.


    Jane who? (none / 0) (#202)
    by Radix on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:50:53 PM EST
    It seems some people spend an awful lot of time castigating some one who has little to no constituency, as is claimed about Hamsher.