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    From now on (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:47:39 PM EST
    I'm happy when the dogs chew the squeaky part out of every dog toy first thing.

    In my defense, while I was away from (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:48:01 PM EST
    Talk Left today I did nothing in support of Chief Justice Roberts.

    You didn't take him a cupcake or (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:49:27 PM EST
    anything, try to smooth his troubled dewy brow :)?

    Parent
    Burn! (none / 0) (#37)
    by lambert on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:19:10 PM EST
    +1000!

    Parent
    Tell it (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:49:49 PM EST
    to the judge, sister!

    Parent
    are you TRYING (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:50:49 PM EST
    to start a fight?

    Parent
    I thought the comment was (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by ZtoA on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:59:42 PM EST
    lighthearted and funny. Maybe you are being funny too?

    Parent
    maybe (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:08:09 PM EST
    I am

    Parent
    No. But I just read the new comments (none / 0) (#8)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:51:32 PM EST
    to the prior open thread but couldn't reply to any.

    Parent
    Maybe J will post a (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:58:29 PM EST
    Sympathy for the Devil video later.

    Parent
    Well, since this is a defense site, (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:08:37 PM EST
    you're safe in the presumption of innocence, you Federalist, you!

    Parent
    I am not now and have never been a member (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:18:43 PM EST
    of the Federalist Society.  I did go to one lunch mtg. to hear a CA Supreme Court justice speak.  Scary sh#t.

    Parent
    From James Hoffa (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:48:46 PM EST
    An interesting perspective....

    Tea Party protesters are average Americans who are paying the price for the unrestrained power of corporations. They pay three-quarters of their income for fixed expenses. Those higher costs include taxes -- the cause of much Tea Party anger -- but they include mortgage, health insurance and transportation.

    Compare that with their parents' experience. Fixed expenses only consumed half of their parents' income in the 1970s -- and it's likely only one of their parents worked.

    Protesters blame "big government" for their woes, but their anger is misdirected. It's the big conglomerates that are fleecing them. The fact is that institutional power has moved away from government to Wall Street and large corporations.

    SNIP

    Some of the Tea Party protests are quietly funded by right-wing groups that in turn are financed by large energy and banking conglomerates. These corporate giants have no loyalty to America and no sense of public purpose. The Tea Party protesters are being manipulated by the very same conglomerates that are causing their problems.


    Government has allowed (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:51:36 PM EST
    Wall Street and corporations to take the country over.  Actually they've sold it to them.

    Parent
    I thought the government (us) gave (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:07:12 PM EST
    it to Wall St. w/o conditions.

    Parent
    Seems more like the gov't lost the (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:48:59 PM EST
    country in a poker game.

    Parent
    That's exactly the way I pegged them. (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:51:44 PM EST
    This is why I think Democrats are totally insane to insult and dismiss the Tea Party members.
    They're just regular joes who are getting screwed, like the rest of us.

    Parent
    Yes, they don't understand how they got (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:53:19 PM EST
    here.  But once they do figure that out, they aren't going to be any happier with our government.

    Parent
    If Democrats don't care about those (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:54:35 PM EST
    people, why should I expect them to care about me?

    Parent
    Simple (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:55:35 PM EST
    They don't.

    To quote BTD..."Pols will be pols."

    Parent

    I posted to this effect (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by Salo on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:57:07 PM EST
    Teabagger was such a stupid thing to start calling them.

    Parent
    Oh yes, I read your comment. (5.00 / 7) (#19)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:03:53 PM EST
    If Rachel Maddow wanted to be useful, why not have some Tea Party members on and show them the evidence that they are being used and manipulated.
    But no, she has to insult them with a 7th grade epithet.
    Very "creative party" of her.

    Parent
    Let's work on our cliches! (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by lambert on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:23:15 PM EST
    It's "creative class" -- or, as I prefer to say, "creative [cough] class."

    Parent
    I've yet to hear (2.00 / 1) (#126)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 08:42:35 PM EST
    anyone, in the last two years, refer to themselves as members of this fabled-in-puma-lore "creative class".

    And that recurrent reference passed from the world of tangible things to code for a never-ending tantrum, probably sometime in late 2008.  

    Parent

    The "its so Puma" stuff confuses me (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by ZtoA on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 09:33:19 PM EST
    I thought is was Donna Brazille who said the new dem base was the creative class AAs and youth.

    And, yup, I don't know anyone who calls themselves 'creative class', but I don't know anyone who calls themselves 'yuppies' either.

    It is essentially a class distinction. Creative class vs. teapartiers.

    The dem party used to be the party that represented those people of the less privileged class, working class and rural. It has all changed, and the whole class landscape in the US is a mixed up mess.

    Parent

    The fact is (none / 0) (#131)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 10:05:32 PM EST
    both party's, in the service of the revolving door-K St-Wall St complex, have assiduously applied themselves to selling the working class down the river for forty+ years.

    Who cares what imaginary distinctions Donna Brazile, Mark Penn and others, who bank on the amnesia and short attention span of the public, make in the media? You dont really think it all just changed sometime in 2008, do you?

    Parent

    sigh, jondee (none / 0) (#137)
    by ZtoA on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 10:22:15 PM EST
    you are probably right about both parties being tools of the upper class for a long time.

    But I got a kick out of Brazille's 'creative class'.... meaning the same old upper class. It just made yuppies sound better. To some.

    Parent

    Would that they were creative.. (none / 0) (#138)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 10:40:42 PM EST
    unless creative has now come to mean pissing on someone's leg and convincing them it's raining -- and good for America.

    Parent
    You considered checking the link? (5.00 / 3) (#129)
    by lambert on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 10:02:23 PM EST
    Here is is again. Bowers, May 8, 2008.

    Perhaps you'd consider doing a smidgeon of homework before playing the PUMA hate card?

    Parent

    The Judean People's Front (2.00 / 1) (#127)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 08:49:29 PM EST
    and The People's Front of Judea.

    Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee resolved to have a battle..

    Parent

    That's interesting on the JDF (3.00 / 2) (#130)
    by lambert on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 10:03:31 PM EST
    Somebody ran the very same riff over at Avedon's just this evening. It's like all the Obama apologists are reading off the same blast fax or something...

    Parent
    Sorry, JPF (3.50 / 2) (#132)
    by lambert on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 10:06:44 PM EST
    Typed too fast.

    And hey! Oliver Willis, right after calling Hamsher, of all people, a PUMA, ran the very same tantrum riff.

    Hope you guys are billing Axelrod for the service! Kidding!

    Parent

    Right and the same whiners (3.50 / 2) (#136)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 10:18:30 PM EST
    with the same riffs that they're probably reacting to. What are the odds?

    Parent
    I thought "creative class" (none / 0) (#84)
    by ZtoA on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:03:46 PM EST
    was the 'retooled' word for "yuppie".

    Parent
    we are the washed children of hippies (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:16:27 PM EST
    we can't be yuppies.  Even if I'm wearing J Crew, I'll never get the hippy smell out.

    Parent
    "Now with more entitlement!" (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by lambert on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 08:24:39 PM EST
    Yeah, basically. Same old, same old.

    Parent
    That's an excellent point (none / 0) (#139)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 11:49:58 PM EST
    about Maddow. Partly it has to do with the fact that there's a virtual media black out on dissecting in depth what really led up to these people becoming so disenfranchised.

    Capitalism: A Love Story you have to go out in rent;
    the material covered isnt open for public discussion
    anywhere on television or the radio. And Rachel Maddow wants to keep her job, like everyone else.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:57:37 PM EST
    what they seem most to believe in IMO is that Obama is going to turn this country into some sort of Socialist Nightmare.  I wish.  Let's not forget all the racist signs and Nazi references to boot.

    They're just right wing loonies.  Same as it ever was.

    Parent

    To me it is the (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:07:55 PM EST
    'What's the Matter with Kansas? syndrome all over. Yes, as jb's quoted section above points out, there are plenty of good reasons for people to be angry.  I like to think that if Dems had harnessed that anger before the Republican groups did, they would have gotten the support of these people, and maybe some of them would have been receptive to liberal positons on these issues. But the fact is that most of them have gravitated toward the worst of the rightie anti-government, liberal-hating, and sometimes racist rhetoric.  'The government is taking my money and giving it to dark people'.  They just found a new way to package it.  The same exact economic conditions were present during most of the Bush administration and they did not notice it until last spring? That's pretty convenient.

    Parent
    No, I see them as being much more (none / 0) (#18)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:02:00 PM EST
    directly angry about their economic condition than before.

    Parent
    what economic condition? (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:07:22 PM EST
    digby/cnn:

    Activists in the Tea Party movement tend to be male, rural, upscale, and overwhelmingly conservative, according to a new national poll. According to the survey, roughly 11 percent of all Americans say they have actively supported the Tea Party movement, either by donating money, attending a rally, or taking some other active step to support the movement. Of this core group of Tea Party activists, 6 of 10 are male and half live in rural areas.

    Nearly three-quarters of Tea Party activists attended college, compared to 54 percent of all Americans, and more than 3 in 4 call themselves conservatives.

    Not to say they're not suffering like everyone else, but it's all right wing ideology.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:10:14 PM EST
    I wouldn't call James P. Hoffa, president of the Teamsters, a right-ing idealouge.

    Parent
    I liked his (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:13:52 PM EST
    editorial.  And he's right about them.  But are the tea-partiers ever going to agree?  No.  

    Parent
    details (none / 0) (#28)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:09:34 PM EST
    details

    Parent
    Makes sense (none / 0) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:17:37 PM EST
    I don't actually know a tea partier or ever witnessed a tea party.  I've avoided them and knowing of them.  I'm just breaking all the Sun Tzu rules right out of the gate again.

    Parent
    that actually explains a lot (none / 0) (#41)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:23:06 PM EST
    I have at least 5 in my family and to a person they are batsh!t crazy.

    Parent
    "Upscale" (none / 0) (#152)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 12:27:20 PM EST
    Seems to be a deceptive, or intellectually lazy characterization if the only criterion these days for being considered upscale is having "attended college" and having donated money (ten or twenty dollars, once or twice?).

    Parent
    They are angry about it now (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:09:11 PM EST
    because Dems are in charge. That is all that is different.

    Parent
    and an african american one (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:10:00 PM EST
    at that.  

    Parent
    I do think that is part of it (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:17:31 PM EST
    for some of them.

    Basically, I think they are the same hard core of the right that has been there for years. Some more independent types tag along too, but it is just a way for the diehards to call themselves a 'movement'. Or to give Fox an excuse to call them a movement anyway.

    I agree with observed that they should not be dismissed - we have seen how much damage they can do. Insulting them is not helpful either, but hard to resist.

    Parent

    personally (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:26:24 PM EST
    I think its far more than some of them.  heres an interesting exercise.  find me a couple of unrelated african american tea baggers.

    Parent
    I can't open the whole poll (none / 0) (#56)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:35:24 PM EST
    But from what I've been reading, 2% of the Tea Party movement is A, while around 11% is Hispanic.  

    But here's one.

    And another one?

    If someone could look at the rest of the data, that would be great.

    Parent

    I think it more accurate to (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:49:51 PM EST
    remove the % from your comment.

    2 are A

    11 are Hispanic

    Parent

    According to the poll (none / 0) (#63)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:44:06 PM EST
    They only seem to be mostly raging POed dyed in the wool Republicans.

    Parent
    great headline (none / 0) (#64)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:44:35 PM EST
    Black Tea Partier Would Be First Elected GOP African American Congressman From Alabama Since Reconstruction

    Parent
    It would be funny (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:47:28 PM EST
    But as far as the Southern tea party movement goes, I'm pretty sure the President's race is a factor.

    Parent
    of course it is (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:49:52 PM EST
    with 90% of them.  anyone who has checked out the signs can see that.

    Parent
    Seems like a bit of a leap (none / 0) (#68)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:47:42 PM EST
    since the Republicans would have loved to have Colin Powell or Condi Rice run for POTUS. Has there been something overtly obvious for you to reach that conclusion?


    Parent
    Colin Powell and Condi Rice (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Politalkix on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 08:11:24 PM EST
    would never have got Republican Party nomination for POTUS if they ran, not even been close to getting it!

    Parent
    I thought broaching (none / 0) (#153)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 12:38:02 PM EST
    the subject of racism was a no-no here?

    From what I hear, the phenomenon was just something Donna Brazile and "the creative class" made up in order to manipulate liberal guilt.

    Plus Dineesh D'Souza proved years ago racism in America dosnt exist anymore.

    Parent

    That's not what I meant. (none / 0) (#33)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:16:46 PM EST
    A few years ago, the message from similar right wing groups would have been that this or that Democrat is a traitor, and wants to surrender to Bin Laden.
    Today, isn't a much bigger part of the message that people are dissatisfied with their slice of the pie?

    Parent
    Yes - I agree they have gotten (none / 0) (#38)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:20:46 PM EST
    a better message. But I think they still believe the first one too. and while I don't think insulting them helps, I don't think many of them are going to come over to a liberal viewpoint anyway.

    Parent
    Not quite what I mean, still. (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:23:55 PM EST
    I'm saying that their message is conveying personal suffering, which it didn't a few years ago.
    I'm sure that's because the economy is hurting them.
    If an economic populist---someone who appeals to  bitter, clingy, god-fearing types---can't peel away some of those voters, I'd be shocked.

    Parent
    but they hate (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:26:53 PM EST
    taxes (generally, on anybody) and deficits.  And especially SOCIALISM!!  I get different messages from these people than you do I guess.

    Parent
    They are like kids crying (none / 0) (#51)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:32:17 PM EST
    about a cut up knee but they won't let you put anything on it. It's for your own good, dammit!

    Parent
    If I'm not mistaken (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:27:41 PM EST
    that was supposed to be the John Edwards' role. How many of them do you think listened to his message, even before they knew about his personal life? Oh yeah - they called him a <insert horrified gasp here> trial lawyer!!!

    But hey, worth a try at them again. Can't hurt.

    Parent

    "PLaintiffs' trial lawyer." There's (none / 0) (#49)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:30:16 PM EST
    a difference.

    Parent
    Right, if he'd been a prosecutor, (none / 0) (#52)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:32:40 PM EST
    it would have been much better!

    Parent
    Has any former prosecutor ever (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:35:35 PM EST
    been elected President of the U.S.?

    Parent
    Grover Cleveland (none / 0) (#66)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:47:05 PM EST
    Ran unsucessfully for District Attorney, and then was elected sherriff of Erie County, NY.

    William McKinley was the Prosecuting Attorney of Stark County, NY.

    William Howard Taft was the Prosecuting Attorney for Hamilton County, OH.

    Parent

    Hard to Tell (none / 0) (#74)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:50:06 PM EST
    Lots of lawyers though, not sure if any represented the gov.

    Grover Cleveland was a sheriff.

    link

    Parent

    You're right (none / 0) (#55)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:34:38 PM EST
    they might have listened to him if he hadn't been on the side of the plaintiffs!  

    That's how contradictory they seem to be to me. They feel the economic pain, but still love the corporations that are robbing them blind.

    Parent

    I'd imagine some of them are angry because they (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:42:41 PM EST
    feel duped. The Democrats appealed to them in 2006 and in 2008 saying that if elected there'd be change. The MAJORITY did elect them. It's hard to argue that change has actually occured. The war has been expanded. The banking industry bailed out. The car companies bailed out. The HCR will require them to give their money to private companies without stipulation of how much can be charged or actual value. Meanwhile 17% underemployment, foreclosures, increases of health care premiums in double digits. If it's been change it's noticably in their minds for the worse.

    Parent
    great comment. (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by observed on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:49:55 PM EST
    Maybe these aren't the people who would vote for a Dem, but they might stay home and NOT vote for  Republican if the economy were good.

    Parent
    Not so sure (none / 0) (#93)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:15:39 PM EST
    I think they are the base of the Republican party - the ones that always turn out.

    Parent
    I seriously doubt that the majority (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:29:02 PM EST
    of the tea partiers voted for Obama. They did not vote for change, even though now they like to complain that there hasn't been any.

    Parent
    No they won't (none / 0) (#43)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:23:16 PM EST
    But when you (in the general sense - not you specifically) has to resort to name calling, you basically admit you've lost the argument and can't argue with facts and data.  We're all guilty of it, but name-calling is really a sign of defeat and lack of imagination.

    Parent
    I see (none / 0) (#40)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:22:17 PM EST
    what you're saying...theoretically it would be possible to prove to them that for ex. progressive taxation and expanded social services are good.  That would take someone with a lot of vision.  In practical terms I don't think it's possible to sell them on liberalism.  After all, these are people who already have a better than average slice of pie (see digby/cnn data above) and just want to eat the whole pie for themselves.  Ayn Rand etc.

    Parent
    It talks about 11% of population (none / 0) (#69)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:48:42 PM EST
    and then goes on to admit that around 24% more of the population additionally support the movement. Doesn't seem like very strong data to me when you go out of the way to charecterize the minoity percent of the party at 11% and ignore the other 24%. Maybe I'm missing something.

    Parent
    But what does (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:56:05 PM EST
    "support" mean? Just as we've thrown statistics around here like "more than half the people are against health care reform", but when you ask about individual pieces, most people support most of them.

    If you told voters that part of the Tea Party Platform is, "curtailing all earmarks ("regardless of the importance of the legislation") and balancing the budget" - lots of people would probabaly agree with you.  The problem comes when the next question is asked - How?

    If you told voters that part of the Tea Party Platform is "incumbents have the upper hand to finance campaigns with taxpayer money when events coincide with their public duties. ... thinks challengers should also get a weekly, federally funded town-hall meeting during the two months before each election. Once elected, lawmakers should be subject to term limits: eight years in the House and 12 years in the Senate.... And last, to end gerrymandering, all House districts should be redrawn by an independent commission based on "democratic principles."  More people might agree with you.

    So I ask - what is "support"?

    Parent

    I can guarantee you (none / 0) (#81)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:02:20 PM EST
    very few people have read their platform.  They are exposed to the Tea Partiers through news stations and mostly through Fox.  It's about the messages on the signs and the talking points:  taxes, deficits, socialism, freedom.  

    Parent
    Maybe, but (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:05:15 PM EST
    How many people who vote for Democrats or Republicans have actually read those platforms?

    Parent
    Even more ironic (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:09:17 PM EST
    is the fact that I'm not even sure the people ELECTED on the platform actually read it. I mean the Democratic platform that purports to support choice but has 64 members in the House who clearly voted against it with Stupak.

    Platforms have become a joke IMO.

    Parent

    DING DING DING! (none / 0) (#95)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:17:20 PM EST
    This was the first time (none / 0) (#87)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:07:56 PM EST
    I read them.  I knew they wanted balanced budgets.  And you can't have them right now unless you want a serious second depression.  But they do seem to drift toward wanting some sort of accountability though it is a very roundabout way unlikely to actually get there.

    Parent
    it takes into account (none / 0) (#78)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:55:06 PM EST
    the others as well

    The poll indicates that about 24 percent of the public generally favors the Tea Party movement but has not taken any actions such as donating money or attending a rally. Adding in the 11 percent who say they are active, a total of 35 percent could be described as Tea Party supporters. That larger group is also predominantly male, higher-income, and conservative.


    Parent
    Does anyone have the crosstabs (none / 0) (#80)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:01:56 PM EST
    The actual demonstrations I have see don't look predominantly male at all.

    Parent
    here is the poll (none / 0) (#85)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:04:57 PM EST
    PDF.

    I really don't think there are too many surprises.

    Parent

    60/40 SPLIT (none / 0) (#108)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:38:10 PM EST
    male/ female is hardly a large predominince in males especially with a margin of error of plus or minus 3. Alot of the they are overwhelmingly stuff seems alot like hyperbole. I'd be hardpressed to call a 50-75,000 a year paycheck affluent.

    Considering the fact this is the group an EXCISE tax would likely fall upon can you blame them for opposing reform?

    I did find it interesting that many self identified as conservative but see themselves as independant.

    I also found it intersting that short of NE, this is widespread(heck the total group had more southern representation than the tea party) , not a southern thing AT ALL. So if it is a race thing as someone suggested upthread then it's become a widespread problem.

    Frankly, the tea party has been charecterized as Republican and they certainly seem to be the ones taking advantage of the anger but I know that just like the group that must not be named the actual movement had a broad swath of independants at the onset.

    Parent

    independents (none / 0) (#145)
    by lilburro on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 07:57:26 AM EST
    are never really "independent" - they are largely made up of people who don't identify as Republican or Democratic but have extremely strong party preference in their voting patterns.

    Ed Kilgore on the subject.

    Parent

    Maybe (none / 0) (#146)
    by jbindc on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 08:00:38 AM EST
    "Swing" voters would be a better description?

    I know plenty of people who voted for Reagan, Bush I and Bush II, but also voted for Clinton and Obama.

    Parent

    Look at the data (none / 0) (#148)
    by lilburro on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 08:48:51 AM EST
    the point is they really don't swing (esp. taking into account all elections, Senate, Rep, etc.)

    Parent
    In other words (none / 0) (#98)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:19:04 PM EST
    The Republican base

    Parent
    or recall (none / 0) (#20)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:05:30 PM EST
    the entire month of August...the high profile insanity of tea partiers (death panels!!!!!) helped kill the public option.  At the very least you can't say they were fighting for it.

    Tea partiers just wish they were the industrial barons of the world.

    Parent

    I ran into two (5.00 / 5) (#60)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:42:32 PM EST
    of them 2 days ago here in Hobart, Indiana.  I was with my 7-year old daughter on the way to the local Post Office.

    They had their table out there and picture of Obama as Hitler.  Another sign said Obama is a Cracker. Another picture seemed to have Obama with larger lips and whiter eyes.  Then, of course, the picture of him as the joker.

    My daughter asked me about the pictures and I said that they didn't like the President because he's black.  One of the guys heard me and said that wasn't true and proceeded to go on about  the birth certificate crap.  

    So while I can't speak for ALL the Tea Party members, I can say that at least 2 aren't just "regular joes" unless regular joes are racist and ignorant.

    I stand by what I told my daughter.  They are the same kind of people that Harriet Tubman fought against (we had just read a book about her); the same kind of people Martin Luther King marched against. The kind of people who Addy ran away from and who didn't allow her on a streetcar when she came North.  You'd have to have read the American Girl Addy series to understand how this brought it all home for my daughter.  

    Parent

    Yeah (1.00 / 1) (#149)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 10:17:53 AM EST
    Everyone who dislikes Obama is a racist.

    Sure. No doubt.

    How do I know?

    Hem, the press and his minions told me so.

    Parent

    Maybe (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by squeaky on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 12:14:24 PM EST
    But for sure anyone who calls him Hussain intending to demean him, is a racist, bigot and more than likely GOP.

    Parent
    That's exactly what Elizabeth Warren talks about (none / 0) (#39)
    by lambert on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:20:47 PM EST
    If you haven't seen this video, it's must viewing.

    Parent
    See, I think there are a lot of (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:33:16 PM EST
    the tea partiers who simply do not understand, and they are being by those who do but profit a lot from the deception.  I think I've seen this clip, but I will watch it again.

    Parent
    oops, being led by those who profit (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:36:07 PM EST
    You know (none / 0) (#133)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 10:09:28 PM EST
    if you would recognize the huge increases in energy costs, which could easily be corrected by government, I would feel inclined to agree.

    If you would recognize the impact of law suits and single state insurance sales I would also feel inclined to agree.

    As it is I see the article as just more snark at private business, which is not blameless, instead of offering some solutions to these three root problems

    Parent

    THE EARLY DAZE, part 7 (none / 0) (#6)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:50:41 PM EST
    More Massa tales (none / 0) (#25)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:08:24 PM EST
    This guy is the gift that keeps on giving...

    Re Glenn Greenwald's criticism (none / 0) (#32)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:14:44 PM EST
    of Chief Justice Roberts for complaining he had to sit quietly during the State of the Union while President Obama criticized the majority opinion in Citizens United, please note Greenwald's reaction to that opinion is not in sync with that of President Obama: Greenwald on Citizens United

    See, if I had read that I might actually (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:27:22 PM EST
    have some depth on the subject. Instead I cheered about what I thought I was supposed to cheer for as someone was made example of by a President who was losing the love of the people very quickly, and then I was left standing there pondering why we weren't immediately barreling into campaign finance reform as quickly as our legs could carry us if what the President claims this ruling will do is going to happen?  It is always when I'm standing there puzzling, that the next time I open my mouth I'm in trouble for not loving and worry about the President more.

    Parent
    I recommend you stop reading Booman (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:32:55 PM EST
    and start readig Greenwald.  

    Parent
    Okay Mum I will (none / 0) (#75)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:50:37 PM EST
    Everytime I find myself wondering what Booman says, I'll go find out what Greenwald says instead.  I will give up being lazy and actually read the person who requires that I bring my I.Q. with me every day.

    Parent
    My adult offspring don't necessarily heed (none / 0) (#82)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:03:03 PM EST
    my unsolicited advice. You are under no obligation to do so!

    Parent
    According to Freud I am more likely to (none / 0) (#90)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:10:18 PM EST
    I'm sending you my daughter's phone number by the way.

    Parent
    This just might work. Hate for all the (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:18:53 PM EST
    excellent advice to be wasted.

    Parent
    Ouch! (none / 0) (#124)
    by lambert on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 08:27:45 PM EST
    Yes, I invented Annals of "progressive" idiocy especially for Booman. The gift that keeps on giving...

    Parent
    Try as I might, I haven't persuaded BTD (none / 0) (#50)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:32:11 PM EST
    to post on the actual Citizens United opinion.  So, once again, we are on our own.

    Parent
    If It Were Obama (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:42:48 PM EST
    Imagine if Obama took Greenwald's position during SOTU, or at any other time. The fainting couches around here would be reservation only with at least a two week wait.

    But then again, Greenwald and Obama, et al., are in total agreement that the unbalanced power Corporations have to influence our lawmakers, is one of the biggest problems we face today.

    Parent

    But one lives in a position (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:53:39 PM EST
    From which he can do something about it, while the other lives in a social position where he can only comment on it.  Just commenting on it when all the power to change it lies in your hand is not good enough for me.

    Parent
    Not My Point (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:09:22 PM EST
    But what you say is a theme here, for sure.

    The lashing went unnoticed here, had Obama praised the Roberts court for upholding the 1st amendment rights of corporations like Greenwald did, it would be dripping red meat for the TL kaffe klatch.

    But since he did the opposite, crickets.. till now when cute little bobby socks Roberts is whining..  I am sure that his children were mortified, think of them, poor babies..

    Parent

    Just flat venomous today (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:17:50 PM EST
    Talk is cheap (none / 0) (#99)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:19:18 PM EST
    Unless you're Jane Hamsher (none / 0) (#100)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:19:37 PM EST
    No Flat Rate (none / 0) (#107)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:33:13 PM EST
    YMMV

    Parent
    What would Pres. Obama say? (none / 0) (#83)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:03:40 PM EST
    Attat boy John.

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#101)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:20:13 PM EST
    I am sure that is what you heard.. or are you just throwing a bit of red meat for the natives?
    "With all due deference to separation of powers, last week the Supreme Court reversed a century of law that I believe will open the floodgates for special interests, including foreign corporations, to spend without limit in our elections."

    SOTU

    Supreme Court Justices, in particular, have awesome, unrestrained power.  They are guaranteed life tenure, have no authorities who can sanction them except under the most extreme circumstances, and, with the mere sweep of a pen, can radically alter the lives of huge numbers of people or even transform our political system (as five of them, including Roberts, just did, to some degree, in Citizens United).

    Greenwald

    Parent

    "Natives"? (1.00 / 1) (#125)
    by lambert on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 08:28:38 PM EST
    You racist!

    Parent
    OK (none / 0) (#140)
    by squeaky on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 01:38:34 AM EST
    Is "primitives" better? It is true that the "primitives" are not TL "natives". Thanks for the correction. Things change, that is one thing we can count on.

    Parent
    Irony! (none / 0) (#155)
    by lambert on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 07:29:27 PM EST
    It's fine, it's fine. Although it wasn't fine in the primariez. Not at all.

    Parent
    "Would" not "did." (none / 0) (#105)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:24:27 PM EST
    Permanent Subjunctive State (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:39:35 PM EST
    That is why you heard "atta boy" even if he said the opposite, WORM and all.

    Why bother listening when replacing it with the narrative in your head gets you five stars, not to mention support for defending Roberts.

    Parent

    Hypothetically speaking, (none / 0) (#111)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:43:00 PM EST
    assuming President Obama's view of the Citizens United majority opinion coincided with Glenn Greenwald's view of that same majority opinion, and, assuming President Obama choes to speak about the majority opinion in his recent State of the Union, would not the President have started off congratulating the Supreme Court for upholding the First Amendment?

    Parent
    Words (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 07:10:26 PM EST
    Both GG and Obama have made the same point regarding the problem: out of control corporate influence. Greenwald has the luxury to argue that protecting the first amendment can lead to bad things (Citizen United) although he does ambivalently opine that it can't get worse than now.

    What would Obama have gained by praising the SC for upholding the first amendment, when he has made campaign finance reform a priority? Obama unmbivalently thinks corporate influence on our political system will be worse than it is now with Citizens United, despite the free speech aspect. Why would he distract from that point for no political gain, by complimenting Roberts court when he could address the lawmakers directly about campaign finance reform.

    Don't you think that Greenwald would like Congress to reign in corporate political spending?

    In sum, there's no question that the stranglehold corporations exert on our democracy is one of the most serious and pressing threats we face.  I've written volumes on that very problem.  Although I doubt it, this decision may very well worsen that problem in some substantial way.

    Greenwald

    In fact he praises Obama for calling out the SC decision, even though he agrees with in, which is why he is "deeply ambivalent" about Citizen United.

    The very idea that it's terribly wrong, uncouth, and "very troubling" for the President to criticize one of their most significant judicial decisions in a speech while in their majestic presence -- not threaten them, or have them arrested, or incite violence against them, but disagree with their conclusions and call for Congressional remedies (as Art. II, Sec. 3 of the Constitution requires) -- approaches pathological levels of vanity and entitlement.  

    Greenwald

    Parent

    Didn't Obama renege (5.00 / 5) (#117)
    by itscookin on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 07:37:43 PM EST
    on his pledge to accept public financing for his campaign? When did campaign finance reform become a priority for him?

    Parent
    Good one. But the primaries and (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 07:39:04 PM EST
    GE are over.

    Parent
    So campaign finance reform is (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by itscookin on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 08:06:41 PM EST
    a priority for 2010? 2012? or not until 2016? I wasn't being snide. I just haven't heard that anything has been proposed yet. What constitutes a priority?

    Parent
    Oh, And I Get It (3.00 / 2) (#116)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 07:27:31 PM EST
    The big conundrum here, which you offer up from the collective, is:

    Glenn Greenwald is always right, brilliant, and a hero of progressives

    and

    Obama is an always wrong, empty suit, stupid, and the enemy of progressives.

    So if Greenwald and Obama voice similar opinions about anything, Obama must be lying.

    Parent

    In whose mouths do you insert words (5.00 / 4) (#119)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 07:39:40 PM EST
    when you aren't on Talk Left?

    Parent
    Double Entendre? (none / 0) (#141)
    by squeaky on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 01:39:29 AM EST
    Oculus, and I thought you were a calvinist.

    Parent
    I also thought Obama's scolding was (3.50 / 2) (#122)
    by ZtoA on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 08:15:24 PM EST
    sort of embarrassing. I would rather he proposed legislation to stop or curb the ruling - or any concrete action. Just calling out without any real action is annoying. Not because it should not be called, but ....where's the beef? Will it do any good? I'm tired of the "rah rah rah" from the stands, if it is all only noise.

    Parent
    What's your plan? (none / 0) (#134)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 10:15:53 PM EST
    Let the President appoint them to serve with him?

    And only one for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!'

    `I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.

    Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

    `But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

    `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

    `The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

    `The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that's all.'

    --Through the Looking Glass, Lewis Carroll


    Parent

    The Paul Ryan Tax Plan (none / 0) (#59)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:42:00 PM EST
    Don't know if any of you have seen this, but it's pretty hard to take:

    Rep. Paul Ryan's tax and spending "roadmap" is a fascinating critter: conservatives all praise it to the skies but none of them want to actually commit to supporting it. The reason for their hesitation is obvious: Ryan's plan would cut spending dramatically, and supporting it would mean having to explain what, exactly, they'd cut. That would be electoral suicide and they know it. They much prefer their usual game of loudly denouncing "spending" without ever having to say what spending they're actually opposed to.

    However, their reason for supporting Ryan's plan is also obvious: it would cut taxes on the rich dramatically, and there's nothing conservatives like better than cutting the tax bills of America's wealthy. But how much would it cut taxes on the rich? Citizens for Tax Justice has run the numbers and the answer is: a lot. The very richest of the rich would see their tax bills go down by an average of over $200,000, a whopping 15% of the income. Ka-ching! To make up for that, everyone with an income under $100,000 would have their taxes increased by about $2,000 per year.

    It's a sweet deal for the rich. But even with all the tax increases on the middle class, Ryan's plan still raises less revenue than today's tax code. "It's difficult to design a tax plan that will lose $2 trillion over a decade even while requiring 90 percent of taxpayers to pay more," says CTJ acerbically. "But Congressman Ryan has met that daunting challenge." Details are in the table below, where you can find out how much more you'd have to pay under Ryan's plan. Enjoy.

    David Dayen's take?

    I've watched the White House elevate Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) as a serious man of ideas with real substance over the last couple months. The media has picked up on this and anointed him "Barack Obama's favorite Republican." This undercuts any effort to tell the real story about Ryan's ideas for the federal budget, which would involve serious hardship for everyone but the rich, and an unbalanced budget, in the end.

    Paul Ryan's budget would raise taxes for 90% of Americans, lower revenues by $2 trillion dollars and not balance the budget. And he's seen as the "idea man" in the Republican caucus! Not to mention the fact that, should the Republicans take the majority in the House at any point, he would chair the House Budget Committee and would actually have the means to put this plan into action.

    You'd think that there would be a larger campaign to discredit such toxic, socialism-for-the-rich ideas, rather than call them "serious" and "legitimate."

    Imagine how this would dovetail with the Deficit Commission, or whatever it is Obama is calling his Commission to Cut and Gut Entitlements...the mind reels.

    I think it is (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:46:23 PM EST
    great that Ryan is more known now thanks to Obama.  Now his plan will get the publicity it fully deserves.  I just hope all the Republicans run on this plan in 2010!!!

    Parent
    Tie it to the Repubs (none / 0) (#76)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 05:50:37 PM EST
    as a whole.  Boehner does not like having Ryan's plan discussed.  Several analysts have already determined it does not balance the budget.

    Do you trust the Dems to push and then run against the Ryan plan?

    Parent

    Heard a story on the news a day or so ago (none / 0) (#91)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:10:28 PM EST
    about unintended acceleration in a Toyota Prius.

    Guy was in SoCal somewhere, Orange County or San Diego, and his car sped up to over 90 mph and he couldn't stop it.

    Guy said h was standing on the brake pedal with both feet with all his strength to no avail.

    Tried reaching down and pulling up on the gas pedal in case it was stuck, but no dice.

    Went on so long he was able to call 911 and have a CHP officer catch up to him and drive along side of him yelling instructions to him through their open windows.

    Cop finally suggested he try both the brakes and e-brakes, and apparently that finally slowed him down.

    I suppose he could have tried shifting into lower gears too...

    Anyway, crazy stuff.

    kdog: no indication the trooper (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:22:12 PM EST
    cited the driver for talking on cell phone while driving.  Good, eh?

    Parent
    Ha! (none / 0) (#104)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:24:10 PM EST
    My sister is sure (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:42:48 PM EST
    this guy is faking it.

    In case you were wondering if I'm the only cynic in the family.

    Parent

    His brakes were worn almost (none / 0) (#113)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 07:20:46 PM EST
    to the metal because of his efforts to stop....I'm doubting he was faking anything.

    Parent
    Wasn't wondering before, but (none / 0) (#115)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 07:25:10 PM EST
    curious how that works for you. Is it something that gets passed down?


    Parent
    Nurture (or lack thereof) rather than nature (none / 0) (#143)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 06:57:08 AM EST
    in our case I think.

    Parent
    20 mins iirc (none / 0) (#92)
    by nycstray on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:15:21 PM EST
    and another went off here in NY. Crashed into a stone wall . . . after cutting across oncoming traffic.

    This is just getting nuts. The one here was one of the ones that had been "fixed" at a dealership, so it wasn't the floor mats. I'm hoping my mom is driving my dad's car these days . . . .

    Parent

    Yep, I think the SoCal guy (none / 0) (#103)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 06:23:33 PM EST
    did take his car to the dealer for the recall, and they told him his car was fine. Ouch.

    Parent
    and was told he wasn't actually part of the recall. Seems to be a great deal of confusion at Toyota.....and that company was the shining star for excellence in manufacturing!

    Parent
    And he didn't think to put the car's (none / 0) (#135)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 10:18:15 PM EST
    transmission in Neutral.

    Not sure I would have either.

    Parent

    Yes, that was my sisters argument (none / 0) (#142)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 06:56:18 AM EST
    I told her the next time her car is out of control at 90mph we'll see if she is able to put it in neutral.

    Parent
    That's what (none / 0) (#144)
    by jbindc on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 07:01:37 AM EST
    a spokesperson from the NHTSA on the radio was saying - especially for the Prius, because the Prius has a button that you have to press for at least 3 seconds to shut off, which is not intuitive when you are careening out of control.  Apparently NHTSA had concerns about this before and told Toyota, but they chose not to change it.

    Parent
    By able I assume you (none / 0) (#150)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 10:25:33 AM EST
    mean mentally able to remember.

    Physically there should be no problem.

    Once the car is in Neutral all the power assist options... steering and brakes...will work fine but the transmission will have been disconnected from the motor.

    Parent

    The world's most passive aggressive commenter... (none / 0) (#154)
    by lambert on Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 07:27:51 PM EST
    ... weighs in, showing me I'm absolutely on the right track. Thanks.