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Tuesday Morning Open Thread

Another day, another court. Another evening, another flight. And tomorrow, another day in a different court. I've never had three court hearings in 3 different jurisdictions on 3 consecutive days before. Suffice it to say, I hope I never have to do this again.

This is an Open Thread.

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    NPR had a story on Benie Madoff this AM. (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 12:28:32 PM EST
    Interviewed a guy who was worked for a different financial company and, back in Bernie's heyday, was tasked by his boss to analyze and duplicate Bernie's financial program.

    He said once he looked at Bernie's publicly available sales-pitch materials, etc., it was pretty obvious he wasn't investing any of the money he took from investors.

    Main tip off: Bernie was the biggest fund around, so if he made trades they'd be big enough to move the markets, ie, they'd leave "footprints." Yet there were no footprints from him. Ever.

    Therefor the only way he could pay out the supposed investment "returns" was to use money from new investors. Classic Ponzi scheme.

    Also said there's a really good reason why Bernie took the 150 year sentence and never "talked" -  it was because although a lot of the money he stole was from wealthy widows, etc., a lot more was from the S American and Russian mobs...

    He figured it out (none / 0) (#28)
    by Fabian on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 01:11:00 PM EST
    by doing the math.

    Follow the numbers!

    Parent

    I had to comment (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by lilburro on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 02:21:13 PM EST
    on Ezra's post today about Obama's team:

    In fact, what appears to be happening is that Barack Obama is listening to his policy people. He didn't scale back the health-care reform bill because they convinced him that the different pieces didn't work on their own. He's trying to close Guantanamo because a lot of people who work on this stuff think we should close Guantanamo. That's the thing about electing a smart technocrat as president: He's swayed by smart, technocratic arguments. The political people are being used to help sell and shepherd the policy, and to figure out how much of the policy can pass Congress, but they seem to be losing the major arguments over what that policy should be.

    The obvious counterargument here is the stimulus debate, but as Michael Tomasky has noted, the limits on the size of the stimulus appears to have come from the House of Representatives (and then, later in the process, from the Senate). Maybe Rahm and the White House didn't do enough to break through those limits, but they also thought the recession would be a lot milder than it actually was, and so didn't act with quite the urgency that better information might have furnished.[emphasis supplied]

    First quote:  Being a technocrat is unfortunately just not going to cut it when visionary programs are required - HOLC, a big jobs bill, etc.  

    Second quote:  So our smart technocrats were morons?  Because I'm pretty sure most people on the Left who were not devoted to worshiping Obama knew that the recession was more serious than Obama thought it was, and that a bigger stimulus was required.

    Holy smokin' stupid Batman.

    The size of the stimulus (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by NYShooter on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 02:54:14 PM EST
    Was decided by politicians....for political reasons, and had nothing to do with the real empirical data as to what was needed. Most economists, you know, the folks who study this stuff all their lives, were simply ignored. The only disagreement economists had was whether a bailout was needed, or not. Some (many?) felt the banks could have raised capital in other ways, like making the investors and speculators take the hit (instead of the taxpayers). But there was little disagreement that if a stimulus was going to be implemented it would have to be much larger than what was finally voted on.

    I just can't get my head around the fact that Obama, with all his education and "brilliance," sacrificed the middle class, and the country, just so Nobel laureate, Olympia Snowe could brag that she "forced them to cut billions from the bailout."


    So, if it's Tuesday, you must be in... (none / 0) (#1)
    by Anne on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:21:47 AM EST
    some city with a courthouse; sounds like it might be challenging to one's ability to focus on the matter at hand with travel details so much a part of the mix.

    Obama's giving a speech tomorrow on - what else? - the health care plan.  There's a new plan, apparently, arising out of the summit.  It's going to be smaller ("Honey - I've shrunk the bill!"), and if you spot House leadership all sporting slings, it's because there's been a lot of arm-twisting to get the House to agree to vote on the Senate bill first.

    In other words, you haven't missed much.

    Scotus blog cover the McDonald oral args (none / 0) (#2)
    by andgarden on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:28:04 AM EST
    here:

    [W]hile no one said that the issue of "incorporating" the Second Amendment into the 14th Amendment had already been decided before the argument had even begun, the clear impression was that the Court majority was at least sentimentally in favor of that, with only the dimensions of the expansion to be worked out in this case and in a strong of likely precedents coming as time went on.

    [. . .]

    The first argument to collapse as the argument unfolded was the plea by the lawyer for gun rights advocates, Alan Gura of Alexandria, VA, that the Court should "incorporate" the Second Amendment into the 14th Amendment through the "privileges or immunities" clause.   In the first comment from the bench after Gura had barely opened, Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., noted that the Court had essentially scuttled that argument with its ruling in the SlaughterHouse Cases in 1873.  And within a few minutes, Justice Antonin Scalia -- the author of the Heller opinion and the Court's most fervent gun enthusiast -- was sarcastically dismissing the "privileges or immunities" argument.

    "Why," Scalia asked Gura, "are you asking us to overrule 140 years of law....unless you are bucking for some place on some law school faculty."  The Justice said the "privileges or immunities" argument was "the darling of the professoraet" but wondered why Gura would "undertake that burden."  And Scalia noted that the "due process" clause -- an open-ended provision that he has strongly attacked on other occasions-  was available as the vehicle for incorporation, and added: "Even I have acquisced in that."  

    Situational (and frankly pragmatic) "strict construction" from Scalia.

    Personally, I don't think "P or I" is very useful now that all of the rights are effectively incorporated anyway. And the due process clause has the added benefit of applying to "persons,' not just citizens.

    But will Justice Scalia approve of (none / 0) (#4)
    by oculus on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:30:39 AM EST
    non-citizens having a right to bear arms?

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#6)
    by andgarden on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:34:02 AM EST
    They have free reign to define the scope of the right. That's where the real fight is going to be.

    Parent
    Well if the swarthy ones insist on being unwaxed (none / 0) (#43)
    by Ellie on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 02:20:12 PM EST
    ... they can't then complain that body hair made them easier to profile during tank-top season.

    I assume Scalia will be applying some form of Occam's here: the Razor's fast but leaves telltale stubble; Occam's Hot Wax hurts like a byotch but leaves the arms smooth for weeks.

    Plus, could Nino pass that test himself? What's under HIS shirt sleeves? He won't say, will he?

    Parent

    Anybody catch that clip... (none / 0) (#3)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:28:44 AM EST
    of grumpy old man Bunning getting in the elevator?

    What a nasty f*ck.

    According... (none / 0) (#5)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:32:35 AM EST
    ...to the frozen, dismembered head of Ted Williams, he had a sh*tty slider as well.

    Parent
    Insult to injury... (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:40:38 AM EST
    the bastard threw a perfect game against my Mets.

    If he is taking a principled stand because we are broke, it's laughable considering what we did for the banks...but fair enough, defend the stance. Don't run into a senator-only elevator like a yellow-belly.

    Parent

    What he is saying is (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 01:10:42 PM EST
    'we passed a law that said we couldn't pass spending laws without saying how it would be paid for.'

    So what's wrong with taking the money from the unused TARP or stimulus??? There is plenty there.

    The problem is the pigs on both sides don't want to give up any of their slop.

    Parent

    However, as Reid said (none / 0) (#35)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 01:23:48 PM EST
    Bunning voted before for UI extension (seveal times) without the PAYGO limits.  He also voted for continued funding for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan with nary a question.

    So pardon us if we don't feel as if Bunning is really standing on principle.

    Parent

    Principle has nothing to do with it (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 05:28:54 PM EST
    and who cares what he did re the Iraq war? I mean that has nothing to do with this.

    Facts are that the PAYGO limits are here now. Either abide by them or pass a law rescinding them.

    I repeat. The money is there. You just have to get the hogs away from the slop.

    Parent

    Well, goes to show (none / 0) (#48)
    by ruffian on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 02:45:03 PM EST
    there is good in everybody. (Cubs fan here - anyone blanking the Mets scores at least one point with me!)

    Parent
    C'mon pal... (none / 0) (#52)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 02:58:05 PM EST
    we're not even in the same division anymore...time to let the Black Cat Incident of '69 go.

    When the Mets are done, I turn my root-root-root to the Cubbies:)

    Parent

    I'll try, (none / 0) (#53)
    by ruffian on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 03:00:04 PM EST
    but only because of you kdog!

    We could have a beer summit with Mets and Cubs fans and heal the old wounds.

    Parent

    Actually, I'm seeing the Mets tomorrow (none / 0) (#54)
    by ruffian on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 03:01:07 PM EST
    in s spring training game against the Braves here in Orlando. I will give them a cheer for you!

    Parent
    Nice!... (none / 0) (#55)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 03:06:03 PM EST
    Make sure my boy Reyes doesn't pull a hammy will ya?...:)

    Parent
    It's gonna be chilly- high of 60 (none / 0) (#58)
    by ruffian on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 03:46:04 PM EST
    Tell your boy to warm up properly!

    Parent
    See that triple yesterday? (none / 0) (#60)
    by nycstray on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 03:55:21 PM EST
    I always thought he was my boy?! He's usually my first draft pick every season.

    Parent
    I did, I did... (none / 0) (#64)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 04:29:05 PM EST
    not thrilled about this batting him in the 3-hole idea...he is too valuable up top, when his hammys are holding.

    Parent
    Time to start singing... (none / 0) (#9)
    by vml68 on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:41:16 AM EST
    Well your laws are for Dummies, yes
    Your institutions dead
    I say we're out to blow the trumpet
    To wake you all from bed - from bed

    Janglin'-Edward Sharpe & The Magnetic Zeroes

    Parent

    Cool lyric... (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:49:36 AM EST
    but the loudest horns on earth couldn't wake the clowns...they're in a coma.

    Parent
    Frank Lautenberg returns to the Senate, (none / 0) (#7)
    by andgarden on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:36:21 AM EST
    casting his first vote. He's standing upright and chatting with Al Franken.

    Good news.

    Glad he's ok... (none / 0) (#10)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:41:45 AM EST
    hope he stops bedwetting.

    Parent
    Lazy, stupid... (none / 0) (#11)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:41:49 AM EST
    ...or all of the above?  

    An English dog-owner was fined and barred from driving for six months after taking his pet for a stroll while sitting behind the wheel of his car.

    Prosecutors said Paul Railton was spotted by a cyclist driving slowly along a country lane in December, holding his dog's leash through the car window as the animal trotted alongside.

    Railton pleaded guilty Monday to not being in proper control of a vehicle, but told the court that "a lot of people exercise their dogs in that manner."



    Lazy and stupid... (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:50:36 AM EST
    but criminal?  I can't go there unless he was driving so fast the pooch couldn't keep up.

    Parent
    You'll like this too... (none / 0) (#14)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:55:08 AM EST
    A bill aimed at requiring kids to strap on helmets when they're biking, scooting, skateboarding or otherwise rolling down the street led this morning to some low-brow one-liners from House Republicans, who opposed the mandate. Rep. Larry Liston, R-Colorado Springs, said if the state's going to protect noggins, it may as well protect other sensitive parts, and he supported an amendment to do so.

    "What's good for the head injury is good for the family jewels," Liston quipped.

    The not-so-subtle joke amendment would have required boys wear "a crush resistant athletic cup" as well...

    The tweak failed on a voice vote, but only because "the majority of their (Democrats') caucus is women," said Minority Leader Mike May.

    Link

    Real effective use of taxpayer money there.

    Parent

    Way to go.... (none / 0) (#17)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:59:06 AM EST
    Larry Liston!  I'm with the hated Repubs on this one.

    And what about knee-pads, elbow-pads, shoulder-pads?  Think of the children!!!!

    Parent

    I sure hope... (none / 0) (#20)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 12:13:09 PM EST
    ...the Gov. was wearing his helmet and nut cup when he had his little bike accident today.  

    Parent
    And all beds must have side boards (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 01:12:36 PM EST
    Bunk-beds prohibited...:) n/t (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 01:19:49 PM EST
    He is right about one thing... (none / 0) (#16)
    by vml68 on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:57:34 AM EST
    I wouldn't say "a lot of people" but I have seen this a couple of times and one of them was a veterinarian!

    Parent
    I once encountered a bicycle rider who was (none / 0) (#19)
    by esmense on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 12:09:05 PM EST
    walking his dog this way on an extremely busy  street -- leash attached to the handlebar on the traffic side, dog and bike meandering unsteadily all over the lane and into the next (oncoming lane). I thought it was one of the most outrageously thoughtless things I've ever witnessed. The bike rider was definitely "not in proper control of his vehicle" or his poor dog.

    This British fool at least was probably walking the dog on the shoulder and not out in the middle of the street.

    Parent

    Some good news... (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:55:39 AM EST
    no charges forthcoming against the Acorn workers in Brooklyn.

    And once Kristin Davis is elected governor, prostitutes will have the same access to loans and such as everyone else.

    Swallowing dope... (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 12:03:28 PM EST
    to avoid charges is so 20th century...now suspects are swallowing flash drives.  

    In today's news on religion and non-religion... (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 12:23:04 PM EST
    Just more proof (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 12:35:16 PM EST
    that only Satan hates good Italian food.

    Parent
    Figures they'd push the Anchovy Special ... (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Ellie on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 02:44:32 PM EST
    ... during Lent:

    It was not lost on Ms. Marsico that Jesus appeared at Brownie's at the start of Lent, a holy Christian time that also happens to spur pizza sales because observers are not supposed to eat meat on Fridays.

    "I will never cheat and eat meat again," she said

    And I wrote off all that fuss about loaves and fishes as allegory. Turns out it's 100% true and comes with a Fam-sized Chinotto if you order for pick-up!

    Parent

    Yet another... (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 12:52:37 PM EST
    newspeak definition of criminal murder.  Linkage

    What's the problem? (none / 0) (#25)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    This dude was fleeing cops because he stole a car.  Now, he knew he was committing a crime and when you commit a crime, you accept the responsibility that if someone gets hurt or killed, then you could be held responsible.

    As we discussed the other day - classic felony-murder.

    Parent

    The problem is... (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 01:05:14 PM EST
    the dude didn't shoot the guy, another dude did.  

    Parent
    You steal a car (none / 0) (#30)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 01:15:24 PM EST
    You takes your chances that no one gets killed or hurt during the crime.

    Parent
    Come on man (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 01:17:48 PM EST
    Who was responsible for the guard shooting?

    Parent
    Lets see... (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 01:22:38 PM EST
    whose finger was on the trigger?  There is your answer.

    Not saying the guard should be charged...as far as I can tell no one should be charged with murder here.  The kid should be charged with auto-theft, maybe  a side of fleeing an officer or resisiting arrest or reckless endangerment...but there was no murder here, though I know the law says different.

    Parent

    Again (none / 0) (#36)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 01:26:20 PM EST
    "Reckless Endangerment" means he willfully and wantonly disregrded the safety of his passenger (And anyone else he may have come in contact with).  Which means, if anything happened to anyone he may have come in contact with, he's responsible.

    You just disproved your own point. His actions are the cause of his passenger's death.  But-for him stealing the car and fleeing the cops and crashing into a military base, his passenger would not be dead.

    Parent

    Damn you lawyers... (none / 0) (#37)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 01:33:48 PM EST
    I swear you make it so confusing on purpose:)

    Correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't murder require intent?  Where is the intent to kill his buddy in the passenger seat?  He put his buddy in danger, yeah...or more likely the dead kid put himself in danger by going along for the ride...I know the books say different but I could never call this murder.

    Parent

    The first definition of first degree murder is causing the death of another person with either the intent or knowledge that the conduct will cause death and with premeditation. Premeditation is often described as 'malice aforethought,' which basically means that you probably considered the consequence of your conduct for at least a second before you committed the act.

    The second definition of first degree murder is causing the death of another person while committing or attempting to commit another crime like sexual conduct with a minor, sexual assault, molestation of a child, various drug-related crimes, kidnapping, burglary, arson, robbery, escape from jail, child abuse, or unlawful flight from a pursuing law enforcement vehicle, or while fleeing from the scene where you committed any of these offenses.

    The third definition of first degree murder is causing the death of a law enforcement officer in the line of duty while intending or knowing that the conduct will cause the officer's death.

    There are a few types of homicide, or murder, which are defined by law. First degree murder is the premeditated, deliberate, and/or malicious act of intentionally causing the death of another party. First degree murder is often referred to as "cold-blooded" murder because it is calculated and committed willfully with the intention to kill or do serious harm. Murder in the second degree is the crime of murdering in "the heat of passion" which can involve situations where a person acts during a period of intense fear, rage, anger, terror, or fear. This type of murder is often considered voluntary manslaughter. This type of murder can also occur when death results in the perpetration of another criminal act.

    Third degree murder is often referred to as involuntary manslaughter. Involuntary manslaughter is murder that was not intended specifically by the defendant. Criminal negligence is often the precursor to involuntary manslaughter. Reckless use of a motor vehicle, firearms, explosives, animals, medicine, and the like that results in the death of a person falls under this category of murder. Some states also consider it murder to cause or aid another's suicide, or to supply drugs which result in death.



    Parent
    The criminal defense attorneys can correct me (none / 0) (#39)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 01:51:08 PM EST
    But here's a good primer (yes, from Wiki, but it quotes Blackstone...

    William Blackstone (citing Edward Coke), in his Commentaries on the Laws of England set out the common law definition of murder as

    " when a person, of sound memory and discretion, unlawfully killeth any reasonable creature in being and under the king's peace, with malice aforethought, either express or implied.[3] "

    The first few elements are relatively straightforward; however, the concept of "malice aforethought" is a complex one that does not necessarily mean premeditation. The following states of mind are recognized as constituting the various forms of "malice aforethought":

    1. Intent to kill,
    2. Intent to inflict grievous bodily harm short of death,
    3. Reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (sometimes described as an "abandoned and malignant heart"), or
    4. Intent to commit a dangerous felony (the "felony-murder" doctrine).

    Under state of mind (i), intent to kill, the deadly weapon rule applies. Thus, if the defendant intentionally uses a deadly weapon or instrument against the victim, such use authorizes a permissive inference of intent to kill. An example of a deadly weapon or instrument is a gun, a knife, or even a car when intentionally used to strike the victim.

    Under state of mind (iii), an "abandoned and malignant heart", the killing must result from defendant's conduct involving a reckless indifference to human life and a conscious disregard of an unreasonable risk of death or serious bodily injury. An example of this is a 2007 law in California where an individual could be convicted of second-degree murder if he or she kills another person while operating a motor vehicle while being under the influence of alcohol, drugs, or controlled substances.

    Under state of mind (iv), the felony-murder doctrine, the felony committed must be an inherently dangerous felony, such as burglary, arson, rape, robbery or kidnapping. Importantly, the underlying felony cannot be a lesser included offense such as assault, otherwise all criminal homicides would be murder as all are felonies.

    Many jurisdictions divide murder by degrees. The most common divisions are between first and second degree murder. Generally second degree murder is common law murder with first degree being an aggravated form. The aggravating factors that distinguish first degree murder from second degree are first degree murder requires a specific intent to kill and premeditation and deliberation.



    Parent
    Thanks for the edumacation... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 01:55:44 PM EST
    obviously I woulda wrote it differently:)

    In this case, if responsibility for the death must be assigned, it lies with the deceased more than anybody, imho.  Play with fire get burned and all that.  

    Parent

    There's also the intent (none / 0) (#41)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 01:59:43 PM EST
    to discount the notorious impulsiveness and recklessness of troubled sixteen year olds in the interests of advancing one's career with a little tough-on-crime grandstanding for the sh*tting-it's-knickers-with-fear public.

    Parent
    Thats what kills me.... (none / 0) (#42)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 02:02:25 PM EST
    who is served by pinning a murder rap on a teenage car thief who made a run for it?  Certainly not society.

    Parent
    It serves the interests (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 02:37:09 PM EST
    of career advancement for righteous, persecutory personality types working in the legal system and in government and provides a relatively brief psychological fix for the chronically angry and frightened public, (like say, a two hour Law and Order season premiere).

    Considerations of whether or not it's really in the long-term interests of society to relegate troubled sixteen year olds - who are still in a state of developmental flux, as ALL sixteen year olds are - to some hellhole or other, seems to barely figure into the moral calculus involved..if there really is any.

    Parent

    The 16 y/o is deceased, tragically. (none / 0) (#46)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 02:42:47 PM EST
    The 19 y/o is the one facing charges...

    Parent
    My bad (none / 0) (#50)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 02:51:49 PM EST
    I'll still stick with the gist of the original point, though.

    Plenty of nineteen year olds have turned their lives around if given the proper kind of attention.

    Parent

    Sure, and 20 y/o's. (none / 0) (#59)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 03:52:48 PM EST
    And 21 y/o's. And 30, 40 & 50 y/o's. Etc. I'm not arguing with you...

    Parent
    Well, it is all the experts fault, you see. (none / 0) (#49)
    by KeysDan on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 02:50:07 PM EST
    At least the ones Obama and Rahm chose as their masters.

    Babies in Bars... (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 03:19:02 PM EST
    no, not Double-Down Trent's version of beautiful babies...the real ones.  There's a debate brewing in Brooklyn, pun intended...

    My take, its cool to bring your kids to the pub, I sure went to plenty as a toddler and tike...but it is wrong to expect other patrons to watch their language or curb their bar behavior for your kid's sake.  iow, if you bring the kid don't expect others to cater to you....if thats a problem leave the rugrat at home.

    And if the bars in your state still allow smoking, don't dare try to stop it because of your kid.

    Every Summer... (none / 0) (#57)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 03:44:47 PM EST
    ...when the Street Fair season rolls around, I'm reminded of how much I hate strollers.  It usually happens about the second time someone decides to roll-up on the back of my ankles.  

    As to allowing kids in bars, that should be left up to the owner (like smoking and allowing dogs).  Don't like the rules, find somewhere else to take your business.

    Parent

    Works for me... (none / 0) (#61)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 04:00:02 PM EST
    but knowing nanny-state NY at least, there will be legislation to address this shortly, either banning cussing or, more likely, banning the kids.

    I have so many pleasant memories of going to the neighborhood dive bar with the old man as a kid, as far back as I remember...a place where he was always in a good mood, shooting pool with him, playing shuffleboard...and all the soda I could drink and Slim Jims I could eat:)  And the fellow boozehounds would sometimes bring their kids and we'd run amok while our dads knocked 'em back.  Good good stuff. Hope it isn't taken away from today's kids.

    Parent

    All depends on the parents (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by nycstray on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 04:06:45 PM EST
    whether I tolerate their kids or not  ;)

    Parent
    Yep... (none / 0) (#63)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 04:06:51 PM EST
    ...I've got the same memories of bowling alleys and a little dive bar on the Wisconsin side of the might Mississippi.  They had the. best. cheeseburgers. ever.

    Parent
    Yep, all the taverns of my midwest (none / 0) (#66)
    by caseyOR on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 04:56:40 PM EST
    childhood had some mighty tasty food. Cheeseburgers, fries, onion rings. And who could resist Chicken in a Basket?

    I, too, had a boozehound father and spent quite a bit of "quality" time with the old man in various central Illinois taverns. Lots of coca-colas and beer nuts and air hockey.

    Parent

    This seems somehow... (none / 0) (#73)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 08:06:22 PM EST
    ...appropriate to the topic at hand.  

    Here Comes a Regular

    Parent

    I actually agree with you (none / 0) (#76)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 07:29:09 AM EST
    Though I think that kids shouldn't be in bars (even though I half-grew up in a small town bar my great uncle owned).

    I think there are places kids shouldn't be - adults only - so if someone is dumb enough to bring their kids, don't expect the place to cater to them.

    Parent

    Question (none / 0) (#65)
    by lilburro on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 04:47:38 PM EST
    why is it that I can type very well and fast with both hands, but that I can't for the life of me play piano?  Is it because I am lazy or do they require different skills/functions?

    Be nice please.... ;)

    Directions to Carnegie Hall? It's that-a-way ... (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Ellie on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 06:21:09 PM EST
    Oh man, I hear ya. I wanted to play piano but kept getting nudged towards the flute because I had the lung power (high altitude ancestry stays with you) and the school band had a shortage.

    It's on my bucket list for when I've got that 1/2 hr a day that Squeaky recc'd. If it's worth it to you, just do it and enjoy.

    Drums were 2nd. I have a pretty good collection of Thinking About Stuff Hand-Tubs and Finger Bling (like castanets and zills.) No flashy drum kit yet but I'm going 100% batsh!t Krupa-Yoshiki-Lars once Husb goes stone deaf.

    Parent

    It Is Obvious (none / 0) (#68)
    by squeaky on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 05:37:00 PM EST
    You do not practice the piano regularly, and you type regularly. There is a learning curve with the piano because, even though you use your fingers, it is not a keyboard.

    If you practice 1/2 hour every day for two years, with lessons, you will be able to play the piano.

    Remember though, playing the piano is an art, typing is not.

    Parent

    The learning curve (none / 0) (#78)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 08:06:51 AM EST
    is what interests me.  I picked up typing really fast, admittedly in a classroom setting.  But I've taken music lessons before and just kind of...suck at it.

    You are right though if I took dedicated lessons I would probably be able to do something with the piano other than flailing around and trying to get my left hand and right hand to do different things at the same time.  

    I guess when typing your hands don't move much...whereas in music your hands and your fingers are moving constantly.

    Parent

    They are also different in a way (none / 0) (#80)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 08:53:51 AM EST
    Many studies show there is a connection between music and math (that is, many people who are good in music, tend to be good in math and vice versa). There doesn't seem to be a connection between typing skills and math.

    It's definitely a different skill set, although, yes,if you practiced the piano every day, you might get the rudiments down.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#82)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:54:48 AM EST
    The learning curve is what interests me.
    Well then that may be your problem. In order to improve at playing the piano you must be primarily be interested in making music. It does not seem as if that is the case, ergo:

     But I've taken music lessons before and just kind of...suck at it.


    Parent
    I have the exact opposite problem... (none / 0) (#70)
    by vml68 on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 06:59:04 PM EST
    I can play the piano but I cannot type with both hands despite using a keyboard everyday for the past twenty years.

    Parent
    Don't tell anyone who still respects me ... (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Ellie on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 08:41:48 PM EST
    ... (if there's anyone left) but I learned to type using the ASDF-method in sr. high with the "Final Jeopardy" theme song playing in the background. Took me about 3 mos (1/2 cred course) but highly worth it. Perez Prado (Patricia) was good too. Don't know why, but that song always makes me feel happy. The beauty is, adding your $0.03 to web discussions intuitively improves your skills, particularly given the nature of our Inner Netz.

    Pinkies on the "A" and colon/semi-colon keys, leave the "G" and "H" nekkid and cut loose! Okay, let's mambo! Now just the girls!

    You can pick your beat, basically whatever song you can stand hearing repeatedly, and keep upping the ante (introducing a new key or reach) every time you've "mastered a line" on the keyboard.

    Hey, it worked for Count Basie! (Or so I'm told.)

    Parent

    Speed (none / 0) (#75)
    by squeaky on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:10:40 PM EST
    This is a fun game for increasing typing speed, etc..

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    I love "Patricia",,,, (none / 0) (#79)
    by vml68 on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 08:46:01 AM EST
    It always puts me in a good mood. I was just listening to "Lupita" yesterday, another of my favorites.

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    That's funny (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 07:51:28 AM EST
    apparently squeaky has all the answers so you should just follow their advice.

    Parent
    Got It (3.50 / 2) (#84)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:29:08 PM EST
    Sorry, thought you were being sincere, silly me.

    Parent
    I am being sincere (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:51:33 PM EST
    I was asking a question about whether typing and piano require different skills and functions.  Why is there a learning curve?  I didn't know if there were any cognitive studies on the differences between stuff that requires a lot of hand coordination, for example piano, guitar, typing, etc.  I was curious.

    The tone of your answer was annoying.  "It Is Obvious."  

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#86)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:22:10 PM EST
    It is obvious, what was not obvious to me is how anyone can imagine that typing skills would somehow magically apply to playing the piano.

    The fact that you would even ask the question suggests that were you to learn to play the piano it would sound much like your typing.

    I guess that is what happens when the cognitive folk get interested in the mechanics of making art or music.

    Hint, it is the end result that matters, not the means, a letter, novel or a song. If your focus is on the means you will engage in an empty gesture.

    Parent

    the degree (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by lilburro on Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 08:10:10 AM EST
    to which you totally missed my point is funny.  Who would've thought a "cognitive inquiry" would be so attacked.

    Seriously, next time I ask a question for the hell of it, just don't respond.  I really don't find a stream of insults useful and they take away from what was actually a pretty innocent question about hand-eye coordination.  If your piano sounds anything like your comments I am sure it is a tinny and unpleasant experience.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#89)
    by squeaky on Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 11:23:23 AM EST
    Don't post hat TL if you do not want to be responded to. And if your skin is so thin that you cannot accept another's point of view, then I would recommend toning down your insults because you are likely to get back what you dish out.

    Parent
    also (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by lilburro on Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 08:24:50 AM EST
    "cognitive folk" give me a break, like you have any idea what sort of artistic activities I get up to.  Unlike writing a novel playing music requires some degree of physical coordination and skill, hence my question.

    Parent
    Disagree (none / 0) (#90)
    by squeaky on Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 11:30:37 AM EST
    Writing a novel requires tremendous physical skill. It is just that somehow you take typing, speech, or handwriting for granted while you imagine playing the piano somehow in another class of physical activity.

    I assume that because you either need to write, want to write, or have to write, you have decided that the motor coordination involved is natural. Had you the desire, need, or requirement to play music, I am sure that you would also take the requisite skills of that activity for granted too.

    Parent

    As both a writer and a musician (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by shoephone on Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 11:48:17 AM EST
    I have to laugh at your latest theory. You're talking through your hat. Writing requires very little physical skill. Playing a musical instrument requires a lot of it, and in ways the body and fingers do not otherwise move.

    In short, you are full of carp.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#94)
    by squeaky on Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 12:25:02 PM EST
    Laugh away.  You take quite a bit for granted about that body of yours which is working seemingly without effort. Although, your brain seems quite underutilized, either that or you have little in the bank, so to speak.

    Parent
    I think I found (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by lilburro on Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 12:10:59 PM EST
    the concepts that illustrate what I mean...bimanual coordination and dual task interference.  

    Bimanual coordination - a microsoft study

    or this Berkeley study:

    Limitations in the ability to coordinate bimanual movements have been widely studied with tasks requiring rhythmic, repetitive movements. One appeal of this approach is that tasks bear a similarity, at least superficially, to the most fundamental of multi-limb coordination tasks, locomotion. For example, it is assumed that our ability to produce rhythmic movements with the two upper limbs likely shares some of the constraints defining stable modes of locomotion, and indeed, may reflect the operation of similar neural mechanisms. The preference to move the two limbs in either an in-phase relationship (with the left and right arms moving in the same direction at the same time) or an anti-phase relationship (with the left and right arms moving in opposite directions at a given time) may stem from the fact that locomotion typically involves similar coordination modes. Given that these phase relationships are typically maintained between homologous effectors, researchers looking for the neural correlates of coordination have focused their attention on interactions along the motor neuroaxis (e.g., interneurons in the spinal cord or callosal connections between homologous cortical motor regions).

    Piano, typing and sign language all require bimanual coordination.  Same skill set it seems, just varying difficulty.  Piano is complicated with a lot of hand movement in different directions, and complex finger movements w/chords.  Typing is pretty much one key at a time with mostly stable hand positioning.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#93)
    by squeaky on Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 12:20:57 PM EST
    But if you have no interest in playing the piano, or making music, the task will be insurmountable. The same goes for typing....

    And it is no surprise that the coordination required for making music apes the physical movements of walking, and its variants.

    But I would also argue that in order to even walk, one must want to get somewhere. Without motivation, learning how to walk would be an insurmountable nightmare. Think of all the muscles and body parts that must be coordinated..

    Parent

    No Mystery There (none / 0) (#71)
    by squeaky on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 07:12:54 PM EST
    Obviously you have been practicing typing every day with one hand for 20 years and have enough functionality with that method to accomplish whatever you need to do. If you had a reason to type with both hands and practiced regularly, you would not only play the piano with both hands, but type with both hands.

    Parent
    Stop making sense Squeaky... (none / 0) (#81)
    by vml68 on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 08:53:58 AM EST
    you are ruining my image of myself as someone with a natural talent (not really!) for playing the piano.
    It actually took years of lessons as a child, practicing for an hour daily and a teacher who rapped me on the knuckles everytime I made a mistake!

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#83)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:27:31 PM EST
    Talent is highly overrated, imo. Desire or primary interest is the real key to learning. IOW, best to play for your own enjoyment, just like reading.

    Interesting that you never hear people who read novels, talk about being talented at it or not.

     

    Parent

    Do you read music? Bass and treble (none / 0) (#72)
    by oculus on Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 07:24:36 PM EST
    clefs?

    Parent