home

Wednesday Morning Open Thread

Busy today. More from me tonight. Not sure about Jeralyn's schedule.

This is an Open Thread.

One last thing - Kevin Drum is right that the health bill's most progressive element is the income distribution implicit in it. The permanence of this distribution is arguable though, and I will argue about it tonight.

< GOP Attacks Appeals Court Nominee Liu As Universal Health Coverage Advocate | Wednesday Afternoon Open Thread >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Bush 2 does not belong in Hati (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Saul on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:08:57 AM EST
    Have you seen the you tube of him shaking hands with one of the Haitians  and then cleaning his hand right after the shake on Clinton's shirt.

    His old man was more compassionate. Bush 2 does not know anything about poor people and their sufferings.

    Have not seen that yet (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:11:56 AM EST
    but I was wondering how long it would take for him to botch this mission like everything else he has attempted. I'm sure he did not want to do it to begin with, but went along because it was expected after his dad set such a sterling example.

    He's just a jerk through and through. Sending him on charity mission was not going to change him.

    Parent

    GWB: Boor or germaphobe? You make the call!! (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Ellie on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:47:41 AM EST
    He's his mama's boy, isn't he? (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:54:46 AM EST
    Remembering Babs Bush re NOLA post-Katrina.

    Too bad, as I did have a fondness for her after seeing the First Ladies' inaugural gown exhibit at the Smithsonian.  Tiny size 2 after tiny size 2 after tiny size 2 -- what?  do these men marry some species of human that never eats? -- until Babs Bush's inaugural gowns on a mannikin that resembled a real woman.  It was a relief.

    Btw, I look forward to the next time I get to the great American History museum again to see the latest addition to that exhibit -- as Michelle Obama's mannikin will look absolutely Amazonian by comparison, towering over the rest.  And especially the scarily anorexic Nancy Reagan mannikin. :-)

    Parent

    No fair, CC... (none / 0) (#48)
    by vml68 on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:02:58 AM EST
    some species of human that never eats

    some of us were just made small.

    Parent

    Sure, some wee people (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:32:04 AM EST
    make a fine addition to the mix of us all in this great land of ours.  After all, I have an ethnic fondness for leprechauns, too.

    But it's striking to see that 98 percent of the First Ladies were and are such teeny types, not reflective of the country at large, as it were. :-)

    I rather wondered if the sort of women that our presidents prefer sort of said something about the men, more than about the women.

    Of course, also striking with the newly redone exhibit to be about much more than their gowns was to be reminded that so many First Ladies were unusual in other ways -- strong women, many of them career women in the first half of the last century . . . and then came the Fifties.  Ugh.

    Parent

    although i do wonder (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by CST on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:22:39 PM EST
    if some of that isn't related to the fact that people in general have gotten bigger too.  Especially for some of the older first ladies (in time period not age).  People used to be a lot shorter back then too, makes sense that they would be smaller in other dimensions as well.

    But yea, Michelle will make a great addition.  She's taller than a lot of their husbands.

    What about Hillary though?  She hardly fits into the Nancy Reagan mold either.

    It does seem we're slowly moving back to the career women.  For Dems at least.

    Parent

    Betty Ford was a Martha Graham dancer (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by shoephone on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:29:51 PM EST
    which I always thought made her the coolest of all the first ladies!

    Parent
    As a criterion as any (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:50:32 PM EST
    in my book.

    Parent
    As good.. (none / 0) (#104)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:51:36 PM EST
    Factoring in for that (none / 0) (#94)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:33:27 PM EST
    as I noted in focusing even on only the 20th century -- still, I actually looked up a bit about average American sizes over time, and their sizes still are aberrant.  Note I am talking more about width than about height, too. :-)

    As for HRC, her inaugural gown -- and my memory of meeting her in Bill's first term -- show that she was a fairly tiny one width-wise as well, pre-pantsuit era.

    As for moving more toward career women again, I dunno.  All recent ones had careers but left them behind.  Michelle Obama is having to hue to that trend.  After all, she is a lawyer, not a gardener and nutritionist.  With her worthy focus on children, wouldn't it be interesting to see her unleashed on legal issues for them, such as fixing some of our child welfare and foster care laws?

    Parent

    did the previous ones (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by CST on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:47:29 PM EST
    keep their careers while they were first ladies?  I imagine it would be hard to be first lady and have a prominent role at an outside company.  Nevermind all the time constraints, but also in terms of conflict of interest in the event of related legislation.

    Hillary certainly didn't leave a career behind her, as witnessed by the fact that she took one up after.

    As for Michelle, who knows what her personal ambitions are - she was working as a lawyer at a hospital.  Could be this is a personal interest for her as well.

    I agree that Michelle has been treading very carefully into somewhat more traditional roles.  But frankly, after the way the election period went, I can't say I'm really surprised.  I do hope that as we get further into things she branches out a bit more.  I think she could be a pretty great asset if she does.

    Parent

    Yes, some continued their careers (none / 0) (#111)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:04:12 PM EST
    as journalists, geologists, etc. -- if, of course, they had to cut back . . . except for ER, who only increased her workload and output, somehow.

    Then it changed, so Clinton and others had to pick up again afterward, as you say -- which is not the same at all as being able to continue to do paid work during the presidency.  We just have gotten weirder about that, it seems.

    I do think Michelle Obama is having influence, such as in health legislation.  I hope it was not influential in terms of how much the "reform" really helps insurance companies.  However, I do suspect that the nutritional clause discussed here today may reflect her input, as it sure dovetails with her recent messages.  Or it may have been put in the legislation to curry favor with her . . . as I would not at all be surprised to read someday, in a retrospective on how this all is unfolding, that she is seen as someone with whom it is worth currying favor.  


    Parent

    Perhaps because,,,, (none / 0) (#95)
    by trillian on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:37:33 PM EST
    ....many of pols themselves were short.....kinda like movie stars.  You don't realize it until you see them up close.

    Parent
    He doesn't really want to either (none / 0) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:16:26 AM EST
    Not Ever....he plans to never actually care.

    Parent
    Can't find it (none / 0) (#19)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:17:07 AM EST
    It briefly occurred to me I should not have trashed Bush without seeing it first. But I don't feel too bad about it.

    Parent
    That YouTube portraying a (none / 0) (#23)
    by KeysDan on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:21:46 AM EST
    very uncomfortable George W. Bush, seems to document another class at Phillips Academy in which he did not do so well--Noblesse oblige 101.  And, he would have done even worse, no doubt, if Mother Barbara was tutoring him  

    Parent
    Howie Mandell (none / 0) (#26)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:29:56 AM EST
    He's apparently like Howie Mandell.  He actually has a germ phobia.

    Parent
    But does he think Bill Clinton's shirt (5.00 / 5) (#28)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:35:01 AM EST
    is cleaner than his own?

    Parent
    That was funny! (none / 0) (#36)
    by vml68 on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:47:51 AM EST
    n/t

    Parent
    President Bush was wearing a short sleeved (none / 0) (#43)
    by KeysDan on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:55:50 AM EST
    shirt, and President Clinton's sleeves were long (rolled up a bit), so more material maybe, plus, George could feign it better, probably, using Bill's shirt--not so obvious, another "gut" reaction.

    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:19:33 AM EST
    If you slow it down you can see his start to use his  own shirt then reach over for Clinton with a faux-tap on the arm, actual hand wipe.

    So funny. McChimp never disappoints.

    Parent

    LOL (none / 0) (#53)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:16:21 AM EST
    Just got back from Savannah (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:33:31 AM EST
    (sigh of relaxation....) and am trying to catch up on all the health care madness.  Also, Sarah Palin is getting a reality show.

    How was the weather? Savannah (none / 0) (#68)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:44:44 AM EST
    is on my "see America last" don't miss list.

    Parent
    It was overcast (none / 0) (#73)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:54:30 AM EST
    on Monday...and kind of cold, between 55-60 I'd say.  

    Savannah is well worth checking out.  This church is awesome looking.  Unfortunately I only got the best info on what to do in Savannah from a friend when I returned.  The best restaurants and bars are often somewhat hidden (on the 2nd floor of a house, for example).  So I'd recommend doing some research ahead of time vis a vis the night life.  All the same I was pretty happy with how I spent my limited time there.

    Parent

    Beautiful. My brother was thinking (none / 0) (#75)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:56:59 AM EST
    of moving there; can't remember why he is looking further west.

    Parent
    Next trip (none / 0) (#79)
    by coast on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:08:40 PM EST
    if you have the time, come up to Charleston.  I think we can show you pretty good time here as well.

    Parent
    I will be in Charleston next week. (none / 0) (#108)
    by vml68 on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:58:18 PM EST
    My family lives there so I am there every few weeks.

    Parent
    Weather is just now starting to turn. (none / 0) (#142)
    by coast on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:00:35 PM EST
    Still a little chill at night, but that should end soon.  I don't think I could ever leave here.

    Parent
    OMG Savannah (none / 0) (#87)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:28:26 PM EST
    The opulent gardens must be a blooming there... what a beautiful town... especially at this time of year..

    Parent
    not quiiiiite yet (none / 0) (#106)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:54:10 PM EST
    so that was unfortunate, but you can tell, soon.  In about two weeks all the azaleas will be blooming I think.

    Parent
    Awwww (none / 0) (#120)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:22:18 PM EST
    Too bad, among the most beautiful gardens I have seen have been in Savannah and Charleston. Makes you want to be a bee...

    Parent
    Staggering (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:26:08 PM EST
    out of a peony..

    Like a drunk leaving a tavern.

    Parent

    Nice One Jondee! (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:59:05 PM EST
    Poetry

    Parent
    The first part (none / 0) (#156)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:31:31 PM EST
    I "sampled" from Basho :)

    Parent
    Nice (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:39:12 PM EST
    A great chef uses only the best ingredients..

    Parent
    You're too kind (none / 0) (#179)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:20:33 PM EST
    well, I've already (none / 0) (#131)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:37:42 PM EST
    decided I want to go back soon...guess it'll have to be a year from now though :(  I am excited to go to Charleston as well.  That is actually a manageable day trip for me.  Will take your recommendation and check out the Charleston gardens this spring :0

    The South is an interesting place...

    Parent

    No Specific Recommendations (none / 0) (#140)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:57:43 PM EST
    By gardens I  mean just walking down almost any street. I have not been there in over twenty years, but remember being bowled over just walking around. It was almost like one of those towns during Christmas, that have crazy decorations all around and on the houses.

    The mansions along the coast in Charleston transported me into the 18th and 19th century. Stunningly romantic...

    Savannah is quaint in comparison. Smaller scale.

    Parent

    Children w/ preexisting conditions covered? NO! (5.00 / 0) (#91)
    by jawbone on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:32:03 PM EST
    Not until 2014 will all children will have to be covered and not subject to rejection. As will anyone who can afford to buy insurance.

    But, under Obama's Big Health Insurance Parasite Profit Protection Plan (BHIP-PPP), contrary to statements implying otherwise, only some children with pre-existing conditions will have to be covered by health insurers in six months. This is a major and jarring detail about the vaunted great benefits of the new bill -- One of the benefits being touted as something Dems can run on in November.

    From this AP article,, Gap in Healthcare Bill's Protection of Children.

    Parents who have believed the Obama hype are going to be very disappointed.  It's not nice to lie to parents who have children with serious, dangerous illnesses. Or even less dangerous illnesses. This is only for parents with insurance, or who can find insurance companies who will voluntarily cover children's pre-existing conditions.

    Read and weep. Then consider how affected people will vote come November. Oh, Dems, haven't you learned? People hate, hate, hate being mislead and lied to!!!

    Thefutureisnow posts this tidbit at FDL:

    Under the new law, insurance companies still would be able to refuse new coverage to children because of a pre-existing medical problem, said Karen Lightfoot, spokeswoman for the House Energy and Commerce Committee, one of the main congressional panels that wrote the bill that Obama signed into law Tuesday.

    However, if a child is accepted for coverage, or is already covered, the insurer cannot not exclude payment for treating a particular illness, as sometimes happens now. For example, if a child has asthma, the insurance company cannot write a policy that excludes that condition from coverage. The new safeguard will be in place later this year. From AP

    Translate: If there's a family with a sick child that currently is without insurance, they can legally be turned down for coverage. The fine print: That pre-existing condition clause that kicks in at the six month mark only includes:

    1. Those families that already have insurance and end up with a child who unexpectedly/suddenly is diagnosed with a serious illness; and
    2. uhh, guess that's it. Oh, wait, the writers of this forward-looking law assumed that, gosh golly gee whiz, if an uninsured family with a sick kid applies to get coverage and the insurance company accepts (whhhaaaatt?), the company can't write in an exclusion that exempts coverage of that illness at the time of purchase. I know, I know...I can foresee this happening zillions of times.

    Seriously: Even as I knew how awful this law is, I'm shocked. Deception and a sales job of the highest order.

    It's not for nothing the AHIP 2008 draft was used by Baucus to write the  Obama BHIP-PPP. He who writes the bill has the advantage, ainahey?

    Now, my reading of the second AP paragraph seems to indicate that if the child is currently insured, but an ailment is not currently covered, it will be now. But I'm not sure about that...developing -- as are most of the details!

    The article continues:

    Full protection for children would come in 2014, said Kate Cyrul, a spokeswoman for the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, another panel that authored the legislation. That's the same year when insurance companies could no longer deny coverage to any person on account of health problems.

    In recent speeches, Obama has given the impression that the immediate benefit for kids is much more robust.

    The article goes on to give examples of how Obama is misleading the public.

    What other suprises will be revealed as the bill is reported on more closely? Oh, my. Our president lies? Or, is he close enough to accuracy for political bamboozlement work?

    A pol is a pol. Obama's being a pol. Heh. (none / 0) (#99)
    by Dan the Man on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:45:13 PM EST
    Children without insurance now realize what an awesome pol Obama is.  Heh.

    Parent
    Update to this comment (none / 0) (#174)
    by jawbone on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:06:48 PM EST
    Perriello' brother gas line cut (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:00:31 PM EST
    It looks like something funny may be going on.  A tea party site posted an address for Perriello.  Turns out it is his brothers house and the gas line was cut.

    Gas grill? (none / 0) (#126)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:33:06 PM EST
    Outside gas grill?

    Parent
    Republicans will not work after 2pm (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Saul on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Republicans in the senate will use this tactic to delay the amendments or destroy the amendments to the reconciliation bill on health care.

    Talk about sore losers.

    They act like kids throwing a temper trampen

    Yeah, that's the legacy parties for ya (none / 0) (#144)
    by lambert on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:06:54 PM EST
    Who cares?

    Parent
    No committee meetings but (none / 0) (#155)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:28:21 PM EST
    still "working" on floor. Doesn't affect the rec bill but just a tantrum over losing as you said. Clair M had a fit that her committee couldn't meet. She gave them holy heck!

    Parent
    God knows the Dems would never throw (none / 0) (#190)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:40:12 PM EST
    a temper tantrum like this.

    Oh...

    But to be clear, both parties have used this rule.  In September 2006, Democrats used the two-hour rule twice to stop the Judiciary Committee from considering the National Security Surveillance Act.  In July 2004, Sen. Ron Wyden, D-OR, stopped the Commerce Committee from considering nominees to the Federal Trade Commission by invoking the two-hour rule.


    Parent
    baby steps (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by CST on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:19:29 PM EST
    might be coming on DADT.

    On a political level, this sounds like pretty weak tea.  They are not really getting rid of it at all.  On a practical level it might make some difference on the number of people being discharged, as I doubt people are outing themselves under the current law.  But the problem is not just about being discharged.  

    The real issue to me is, they should be able to be "out".  Then there can be spousal notification in the event something happens, and they will be able to talk about their lives without fear of retribution.

    At the end of the day, the only thing this sounds like to me, is that they are making the law live up to it's name - the "don't tell" part at least.

    Still waiting, along wit Godot in all likelihood, (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by KeysDan on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:22:06 PM EST
    for someone of authority at the DOD to speak out forcefully about the outrageous testimony of General (ret) John Sheehan at the Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on DADT. Sheehan startled Senator Levin with his statement that gays in the Dutch military contributed to the Srebrenica massacre in 1995 and stunned a livid Dutch government with the accusation.  If for no other reason, it seems that such a serious charge warrants some investigation to either affirm or deny this accusation against a NATO member.  Mr Sheehan, now a Sr. V.P at Bechtel int, (a major defense contractor) and general manager for petroleum and chemical interest in Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle east is retired and out of reach for official admonishment, but he continues on the DOD Policy Board.  And, why would a general, retired since 1997, be asked to testify on DADT repeal in the first place?

    Parent
    Put for the military itself (none / 0) (#127)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:33:22 PM EST
    this is a big step- they can't repeal it without congressional action, and substantially changing enforcement would be kind of sketchy (in effect ignoring part of the UCMJ).

    Parent
    I would pay to see this (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:57:31 PM EST

    "Avatar" director James Cameron lashed out at Glenn Beck at a news conference Tuesday, offering to debate the Fox News personality on environmental and political issues.

    Asked what he thought about Beck during a junket appearance in support of the "Avatar" home video release, Cameron said: "Glenn Beck is a f*king a*hole. I've met him. He called me the anti-Christ, and not about 'Avatar.' He hadn't even seen 'Avatar' yet. I don't know if he has seen it."


    if anyone alive today (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by CST on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:09:23 PM EST
    is the anti-christ, it might be Glen Beck.

    He does look/act like a man posessed.

    Parent

    More like the as*hole-Christ (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:17:12 PM EST
    whose coming was prophesied in Jeremiah or Numbers or something.

    Parent
    IMO (none / 0) (#173)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:05:20 PM EST
    he moves to the front of the line.
    he is possibly the only person, I know this because I have worked with him, on the left who can hold a candle to Beck in terms of general self righteous a$$holiness.

    as I said.  I would pay to see it.


    Parent

    As long as they're (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:13:38 PM EST
    very well spoken and smart, we can use all the SRAHs we can get at this point.

    It's not like American politics hasnt been a basement dogfight since the 1820s..

    Parent

    and hey (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:19:47 PM EST
    Why? (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by DancingOpossum on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:24:30 PM EST
    Is TL a hotbed of Teabagger apologists? I had no idea. Do you suppose BTD and Jeralyn know?

    Parent
    A few people (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:31:29 PM EST
    were wasting their breath in monumental fashion not terribly long ago here, recommending that we not say mean things about the teabaggers.

    Parent
    you havent seen (none / 0) (#186)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:29:58 PM EST
    the "regular folks" comments?

    strange.  well maybe not so much.

    Parent

    Somebody needs to tell (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:26:10 PM EST
    these people to get their torches together and go scrambling over the cobblestones to Dr Frankenstein's house.

    Parent
    The health care debate is hardly (none / 0) (#1)
    by observed on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 09:36:18 AM EST
    over, it seems. It really would be nice to move on.

    Moving on would probably mean (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:32:25 AM EST
    accepting this attempt at "reform" as the be-all, end-all effort, not likely to be re-visited, tweaked, corrected, improved, expanded, etc.  

    Moving on means it's over.

    Keeping the topic in people's faces means, I hope, attention to those aspects of it that need work.

    Oh, who am I kidding?  The media, aside from a throw-away question or two (will it really save money?) is ready to let it go, and a media blackout means zero interest in and no pressure for "taking the next step" that was sold as part of getting enough votes to pass it.  The powers-that-be are all still basking in the glow, and aren't looking to have their mellow harshed any time soon.

    Still not a good enough reason to roll over and accept that this is as good as it can get.

    Parent

    Heh, I've taken a bit of a break (none / 0) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 09:48:55 AM EST
    from healthcare incredulous unreality. I feel like fighting again :)  Maybe we should just divorce :)

    Parent
    Here's some more for you (none / 0) (#3)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 09:50:34 AM EST
    Calorie data will have to be posted on the menus at most chain restaurants.

    So now you're gonna know how many calories are in that Big Mac (500).  :)

    Parent

    I think this is a good thing (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 09:56:28 AM EST
    But I don't think it is going to cut down on how many double cheeseburger wrappers I find on the floorboard of my spouses vehicle when I climb in because reading and caring are optional :)  He can get away with it now, but I hope he knows when he stops going to PT someday he's going to be as big as a house.

    Parent
    Set his alarm (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:00:51 AM EST
    To play "Reveille" every morning and get him out of bed to go jogging. And no stopping at Mickey D's!  :)

    Parent
    Even worse... (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:00:40 AM EST
    saw something on the news where some legislative genius wants to ban the fast-food chains from giving out toys with the kids meals...unreal.

    I guess it is too much to ask of parents to be...umm, parents.  And why do skinny healthy kids who enjoy the occasional happy meal with cheap plastic toy have to go without?  I can't stand these kindergarten "everybody suffers" solutions brainiac legislators come up with sometimes...not liberty-friendly at all.

    Parent

    If you have a child that is underweight too (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:11:28 AM EST
    and you are facing the possibility of a feeding tube, happy meals are your friends.  And the last year that I had Vera, as her body began to wind down and she lost her appetite, Josh and I would go have lunch with great grandma and I'd stop and get two happy meals.  If I could get half of a cheeseburger in her and half a small fry I'd have actually gotten a few calories in her to play a little bit with her great grandson.

    Parent
    How funny would it be... (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:15:20 AM EST
    if Big Macs and Happy Meals are criminalized while reefer is decriminalized...we can just change the "D" in DEA to a "F" for Food, and no enforcement thugs get laid off:)

    Parent
    Good for you (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:17:16 AM EST
    Calories and fat are not the demon they are made out to be.  For some, they are a Godsend.

    Parent
    Some people can't tell themselves NO (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:29:54 AM EST
    either.  It makes it easier to eat meat responsibly when you actually know how it got here and maybe even took part.  When I was in fourth grade I had to take part in the butchering of cow at the ranch for our family.  I will forever know exactly where cheeseburgers come from now.  And I didn't quit eating them either, but I don't eat them like they are donuts.  When my tummy is growling for that sort of protein though I will gladly eat one.  Funny though, I have seen people literally binge on meat and it is very unappealing to me.  It really grosses me out.

    Parent
    also (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by CST on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:48:01 AM EST
    if you've ever eaten meat from a cow that spent it's life playing in grass fields all day, that you saw get raised and then killed, and got to you without ever going through the food distribution system - it's really hard to go back to the big mac.

    I cut back a lot on meat the last few years, but I'll never give it up entirely.  Sometimes, you just need a little flesh.  But I agree that we are too removed from the process of how we get our food.  Seing it up close and personal definitely gives you a greater appreciation/understanding for what it is you are eating.

    Parent

    Yes, meat is very different when it is (5.00 / 0) (#47)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:01:53 AM EST
    raised in the existing system and slaughtered in it.  Most of our beef goes through a feedlot first before it is slaughtered and fed assorted garbage that is designed to do nothing except bloat them up.  It isn't grassfed lean flesh, that's for sure.

    Parent
    When I was a boy (5.00 / 4) (#105)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:53:14 PM EST
    we almost always killed two hogs and a beef in the fall. Buying meat was unheard of.

    The pork was salt cured the beef canned and/or frozen.

    We also made our own lard, which was bad news for the old ticker. Of course there was plenty of exercise..... a trip to the bathroom was about 500 feet... and we didn't have a big house.

    It was about 1950 when the local REA utility put electric lines up. It was the following year when my Dad had a deep well dug with pump and storage and we had running water plus a bathroom with a commode.

    Ah, the luxuries of life.

    And all the chickens were free range... and if you lost your gum you just let it stay lost.

    ;-)

    Parent

    Man, nothing tastes better (none / 0) (#163)
    by Zorba on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:44:37 PM EST
    than fresh, free-range chicken fried in lard.  Terrible for you, and I wouldn't dare eat it again, but it sure was good.  And so were pie  crusts made with lard.  Darned all this healthy eating!  ;-)

    Parent
    and then there is this (none / 0) (#199)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 05:35:36 PM EST
    Old Happy Meal Looks As Good As New
    You see that picture? It's a Happy Meal saved by writer Joann Brusco for a year as part of a scientific experiment involving WTF. You'd think it would have turned into a Not So Happy Meal in that time, right? Think again -- Ronald knows how to survive an apocalypse.

    My Happy Meal is one year old today and it looks pretty good. It NEVER smelled bad. The food did NOT decompose. It did NOT get moldy, at all.

    Parent

    I can't eat much meat, either (5.00 / 3) (#88)
    by Zorba on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:29:22 PM EST
    Especially red meat. But it's because of my cholesterol.  My husband and I, and our kids, are under no illusions about where meat comes from- we used to raise beef cattle.  We allow our neighbors to hunt on our property, and in turn they give us venison.  And, yes, I've been there for both cattle and deer butchering.  I have plucked chickens.  My husband used to help his uncle butcher hogs.  He fishes, so we clean fish.  So I know where animal protein comes from.  Too many people seem to think it comes from the grocery store, in Styrofoam and plastic-wrap containers, or from the server at the drive-up window.  I like animals and try not to mistreat them (our beef was free-range and grass-fed, no antibiotics or hormones).  But they can be raised and eaten responsibly.

    Parent
    I tried to hunt deer once when I was 15 (none / 0) (#128)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:34:10 PM EST
    I seriously meant to do this I think mostly because I was told that girls don't do that.  It chapped me.  A family that I babysat for, the dad took me.  We were very close to hunting locations so we would leave from home at 4:00 am.  On the second day he got a very nice buck, I was sitting on the next ridge mostly focused on the scenery.  He started yelling for me so I headed his way.  He was so happy.  It had been shot in the neck and when he bent down to cut its throat a huge gush came out and I started falling for the ground, but he caught me :)  I did fill my tag, but when the knife was handed to me to cut its throat so that it would bleed out I went white and stepped back.  All the guys laughed, they did the dirty work for me even though they said that was a sin.  But I did eat my kill.  I never did want to hunt again though.

    Parent
    Those of us who hunt and fish (5.00 / 5) (#93)
    by scribe on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:33:05 PM EST
    also get the same enhanced respect for the meat which graces their table.

    In my book, there are few things better than a nice filet of trout or pike, but knowing how they came to the table causes one to pause and enjoy them, with respect, much more than generic fish sticks from the freezer that get wolfed down without thought or even being tasted.

    In divorcing people from the actual production of food, our society encourages the gluttony that so plagues our health because we have little if any connection to it other than stopping in the store to get some more.  The industrial methods of production also encourage the gluttony, because it just doesn't taste like real food so you need more of it.

    Parent

    I'm inclined to say that when you (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:42:00 PM EST
    cook your food from scratch, using the freshest ingredients possible, instead of buying it frozen or partially made, you get a better idea of what you're eating, too - and you have the benefit of not putting in the preservatives and chemical additives, you can control the sodium and fat levels, etc.  It tastes better, fresher, and it's creative and fun and a great way to blow off the stress of one's workday - for me, anyway.

    Parent
    The closer to the vine a food is the more balanced (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by Ellie on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:34:47 PM EST
    ... its salt / sugar / nutrients are, so you don't have to squint at a label to know whether that food's good for you.

    If you strive for diet diversity, you can also eliminate the mental clutter from the latest One Ingredient Hype announcing the latest savior/destroyer ingredient.

    Parent

    I have yet to successfully (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by CST on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:56:09 PM EST
    ever catch a fish I could keep :(

    Although my dad used to put fish at the end of my line when I wasn't looking, so I didn't actually know that until a few years ago.  I did wonder why I was a much better fisher at the age of six though.  I just don't have the patience for it.

    But gathering clams is something I can do (they just sit there waiting for you, and they can't move very fast).  It really is so much better than anything you can get at the store.  And a lot cheaper too!

    Parent

    You need to go fishing more, then. (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by scribe on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:13:46 PM EST
    Like just about anything else, the more you do it the better you get at it.

    Plus, the days spent fishing do not count against your alloted span.

    Parent

    Scribe (none / 0) (#193)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:55:59 PM EST
    Have you ever fished in any of the Great Lakes tributaries?

    Parent
    Yup. (none / 0) (#194)
    by scribe on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 04:09:54 PM EST
    Upstate NY, for salmon and steelies.

    Didn't keep any though - PCB advisory.

    Parent

    I know (none / 0) (#198)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 05:17:10 PM EST
    I've eaten a couple anyway, though. Being from New England, the biggest trout I'd ever caught before I moved here was maybe 3 lbs; and then I move here and, quite prepared, hooked into one of those 15 lb steelies, taking off through the water like a runaway fright train..welcome to fishing in Western NY!

    If you're ever in Western NY anywhere near the Caledonia - Leroy (the birthplace of Jello!) area, check out Oatka Creek; it's in a fairly remote, forested area and is a really beautiful, relatively unpolluted and fun trout fishing spot.

    Parent

    Eating trout by the lake that gave it up ... (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Ellie on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:40:56 PM EST
    ... or fresh smelts (world's most underrated fish) ... Ahhh, there's nothing like it.

    Parent
    Smelts aren't underrated (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by scribe on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:16:49 PM EST
    they're just unadvertised.  The people who live in places where smelts run keep to themselves the knowledge of just how good they are.

    Parent
    Yummmmm (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:24:46 PM EST
    Smelts fried in butter... a bit of salt..  don't even need lemon.

    Parent
    Make sure its.. (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:53:19 PM EST
    just "a bit" of salt or I'm tattling to Mayor Mike:)

    Parent
    Atlantic Ocean Smelts (none / 0) (#196)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 04:27:42 PM EST
    I used to catch them when I was a kid off the rocks in LI Atlantic beach...  They would glitter in the waves. Each cast  with a shiny lure would almost certainly reel in a fish. We would catch dozens of them, bring them home and fry them right up.

    Parent
    Once when the smelt were running on Milwaukee's (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by jawbone on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:24:05 PM EST
    lakefront, on a Friday night, there was a huge crowd, lots of lights moving around for so late at night on one of the cement piers going out into Lake Michigan. (The pier by Bradley Beach, which I think has renamed...for those of you who know the area.)

    I stopped to check out what was going on, talked to some fishermen netting (iirc) the silvery, shimmery little fish. They offered to give me some, and I tried to say no, that I didn't know how to clean or cook them. They told me just cut their little heads off, slice open their little  tummies, and push out their little guts.

    I still demurred, but finally took what seemed like an awfully large amount.

    I went home, put the big bag in the frig, and early the next day called friends and family to come over the next evening for a smelt fry. I even managed to clean the little critters all by myself...and my stomach only turned a little.

    I didn't have a dining table, only a small kitchen table, so I put an oilcloth on the living room floor and served smelt to about 10 people. Everyone had brought something for a fish fry, so there was plenty of food...just not enough of those fantastic, sweet, fresh smelt! They were so incredibly good: crunchy on the outside, meltingly delicious on the inside.  Store bought smelt have never had quite the same sweetness. But perhaps it was because of being young and having a great adventure.

    Ah, youth.

    Parent

    Oh, memory...was that Bradford Beach? ...hhhmmmm. (none / 0) (#182)
    by jawbone on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:25:00 PM EST
    McKinley Marina, I betcha. (none / 0) (#195)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 04:12:05 PM EST
    Next to Bradford Beach, to be able to get out onto a pier.  Or further down toward downtown, where the pier goes out soooo far.  A great walk to take on a hot day, as the temp drops with each foot farther.

    There always are some fisherfolk at the lagoon, too, though.  And that's just the stretch north of downtown.  Many prefer their spots to the south, into Bay View, etc. Lots of favorite spots all up and down the shoreline of the Greatest Lake.:-)

    Parent

    How 'bout dem alewives dere, ain'a? (none / 0) (#188)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:30:56 PM EST
    Beer-batter fried, of course.

    Put 'em together with a trip to the Sout' Side Polish bakeries for pierogis, per an earlier comment, and you have a marvelous meal.

    Better yet, take a trip for a cone of Milwaukee's greatest contribution to cuisine: frozen custard!  Today's flavors of the day are looking tempting.

    But then, every flavor of every day is tempting.  (Bailey's Irish Cream-and-coffee frozen custard on St. Paddy's Day made me pity all the people who settled for shamrock shakes at that fast-food place.)

    Parent

    I'm gross then... (none / 0) (#29)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:36:35 AM EST
    my motto is "no meat, no meal".

    But I do like a starch and a veggie to go with my charred animal flesh.

    Parent

    Those animals live in cages, ya know. (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:40:57 AM EST
    Yeah... (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:47:26 AM EST
    I don't like how the blessings are treated prior to slaughter, or how they are slaughtered...but it's not enough to stop me from buying...I'm a piker 1st grade in this regard, guilty as charged.

    Parent
    Time to support your local farmers (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by vml68 on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:54:33 AM EST
    and buy grass-fed meats, Mr K!

    Parent
    I have gotten.... (none / 0) (#67)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:41:03 AM EST
    free-range chickens from a farm out east on LI...and damn can you taste the difference!  Them chickens were unbelievably good...especially with Mom's specialty, garlic dressing.

    nycstray has been on me about it too...I need to stop being the lazy American:)

    Parent

    My dog children and I are (none / 0) (#71)
    by vml68 on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:51:40 AM EST
    grateful to Nycstray too for pointing out some great sources for grass-fed meats.

    Weren't we supposed to have a little send-off party for her?


    Parent

    We were... (none / 0) (#74)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:54:33 AM EST
    I think we dropped the ball though, isn't she westward already?

    Parent
    I am not sure... (none / 0) (#78)
    by vml68 on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:06:39 PM EST
    I thought she left last week but she posted on the previous open thread that she is leaving thursday(tomorrow?).

    Parent
    Maybe we'll bump into... (none / 0) (#112)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    each other at the airport:)

    Parent
    Right there... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:42:10 AM EST
    ...with you, Mister.  Give me meat or give me death.  

    I've got a nice filet in the fridge, just waiting for the snow to melt off the grill...

    Parent

    Filet Mignon... (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:53:28 AM EST
    it gets no better from a cow...the only meat to rival it in my book is a rack of lamb.

    I'm looking forward to comparing the taste of Mexican carne with American carne...1 more day!

    Parent

    Have a great and safe trip! (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by vml68 on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:55:53 AM EST
    n/t

    Parent
    If you can't wait for the snow to melt..... (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by vml68 on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:59:37 AM EST
    Filet mignon seared in a very hot pan and then put in a preheated oven for a few minutes, turns out perfect every time.

    Parent
    I'm in no hurry... (none / 0) (#50)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:11:11 AM EST
    ...it is actually quite beautiful around here with everything flocked in whiteness.  

    The meltdown has already started anyway.

    Parent

    Dad and Joshua eat more meat (none / 0) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:47:23 AM EST
    than I do.  They eat about a steak worth a day.  I eat less than that, but I don't consider what they eat to be binging.

    Parent
    I tend to eat light myself.... (none / 0) (#39)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:51:07 AM EST
    rarely being able to finish restaraunt portions...not even close, some portions the restaraunts serve up feed me for 3 days.

    Even the Chinese place I hit for the lunch specials, I get two lunches out of it.

    Parent

    Portion size... (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:23:57 AM EST
    ...is totally out of control at a lot of places.  It's almost like they're trying to fatten us up like cows.  

    Especially considering how many of us were scolded to "finish what's on your plate" as youngin's.

    More does not equal better.

    Parent

    Amen... (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:27:56 AM EST
    and I really dislike wasting food, a big sin in my house.  When I cook I keep the portions small...better to walk away from the table a little hungry still than to throw away food.

    Parent
    I agree, MileHi (none / 0) (#90)
    by Zorba on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:30:58 PM EST
    Portions are way out of control in this country, especially at fast-food and chain restaurants.

    Parent
    Reminds me of that old joke. (none / 0) (#114)
    by KeysDan on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:10:57 PM EST
    Two guys are complaining about a restaurant, one guy says, the food at that place is terrible, and other guys, says: yeah, and the portions are so small. (attribution: Henny Youngman, I think).

    Parent
    I'm with you on this (none / 0) (#69)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:49:36 AM EST
    I have to admit that I like to have 2 or 3 meals for the price of one.

    Parent
    Getting me to eat anything... (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:25:47 AM EST
    ...was always one of Mom's biggest achievements. Nothing made her happier than to see me eat--no matter what it was (still the case today).  Oh, the begging and pleading--every trick in the Polish-Catholic Mom arsenal was deployed!  Since hospital food doesn't exactly stimulate one's appetite, so she was always bringing stuff from the "outside" in an effort to tempt me into eating something, anything.  

    Parent
    Cherry pierogi? (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by scribe on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:26:34 PM EST
    A friend taught in a Catholic high school and one of his students used to bring those from his grandma, when he needed a bit of a bump on his grades.

    The ultimate bribe material....

    Parent

    They have school snack now (none / 0) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:33:35 AM EST
    And I send money with Joshua instead a home snack because you can choose an ice cream sandwich or a cookies and cream bar.  I had it made for a little while until he got tired of it. His teacher says he only asks for snack a few days a week now.  On to the calorie load I can find :)  And thank God for the new kids pants with the adjustable elastic now.  If he finds something he likes I let the wasteband out, when he gets tired of eating it though it must come back in again :)

    Parent
    Agree completely (none / 0) (#8)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:01:36 AM EST
    Although, it might put a few Chinese toy makers out of business.....

    Parent
    I think it's a good idea (none / 0) (#13)
    by andgarden on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:12:33 AM EST
    I figured you might a AG... (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:16:15 AM EST
    you have many benevolent tyrant tendencies...but I still love ya bro:)

    Parent
    In Washington state (none / 0) (#21)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:18:14 AM EST
    under the illustrious Chris Gregoire and her loyal over-ly Democratic (no balance) Congress, we've had that policy for a year or more.

    Parent
    I actually like the policy (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by shoephone on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:15:49 AM EST
    because then I realize just how many calories are in that Taco Del Mar fish burrito (about 700). Finding out that the optional little dollop of guacamole is about 150 calories means that I turn it down. And the chicken burger and fries that I love at Red Mill is nearly an entire day's calorie count! It doesn't mean I don't eat those things anymore -- and I never really ate them more than once every couple of months anyway -- but at least I know what I'm putting in my body.

    Parent
    I like the (none / 0) (#30)
    by CST on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:37:15 AM EST
    food labeling when you eat out.  It's nice to know what you're putting in your body.  As for the toy ban... I'm a little torn.  Marketing to kids is a problem, but at the end of the day, I really don't like laws of this nature.

    Fast food is funny though, as a kid I couldn't get enough of it, now I avoid it whenever possible.  I guess too many road trips will kill whatever appetite one might have had for it.  That and... it's just pretty terrible once you learn to like real food.

    Parent

    Once in awhile... (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:58:40 AM EST
    I like to get my Taco Bell, White Castle, Burger King on...usually a 3 am once in awhile.

    Like everything else, in moderation.

    As for posting calorie counts and ingredients, my only concern is the chains will be embarassed by the counts and ingredients, change them, and it don't taste as good no mo'.  Other than that I don't care...I know its garbage, and sometimes I want garbage...and I don't appreciate some bueracrat saying they know better.

    Parent

    My husband was so PO'd about (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:05:03 AM EST
    fast food getting thrown out of Afghanistan.  He was even more ticked because the people selling forbidden and illegal cell phones on the bases weren't tossed out but General McChrystal decided it was time to crack down on Burger King :)

    Parent
    Some of us though (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by brodie on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:13:03 AM EST
    get sick of seeing all these fast food chains in our communities, proliferating like crazy for 50 yrs now.  They serve up fatty junky food and are an environmental negative as they attract car traffic and are visual eyesores.

    The nutritional disclosure -- hopefully to happen sooner rather than years from now -- should result in enough people declining to buy the ridiculously fatty items so the chains are forced to make some better health-oriented decisions about the menu items they sell.

    Ideally though I'd like to see MuckDees and the like disappear from the American landscape.  They've been a nutritional and visual blight, and they've been yet another ugly American export abroad.

    We can keep one chain in my plan:  Starbucks.  Sure, they've prolifyerated too, all over the world to an absurd extent.  But just drinking their coffee straight or in Americano form, no harm done on the waistline or health.  Get rid of them in France, though.  Italy too.  

    Parent

    Interesting (at least to me), in Kyoto (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:20:50 AM EST
    there were some Burger Kings and McDonalds but not all over the place. What was all over?  Convenience stores:  7/11, Circle K, etc. as many as five on one block.  A Starbucks at airport in Osaka.  Barrista told me there are 80 in all of Japan.  Oh, and many 100 Yen stores. (Think 99 cents.)

    Parent
    Yes, but (none / 0) (#80)
    by cenobite on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:12:36 PM EST
    Did you eat takoyaki from a street vendor in Osaka? (I have)


    Parent
    The barristas at the Kansai airport (none / 0) (#84)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:23:40 PM EST
    Starbucks are the nicest I ever met. Hung out there waiting for my flight last time, in November. They plied me with free samples until I was afraid I wouldn't be able to sleep on the flight. I got two mugs there for my collection. I clect the city Starbucks mugs when I travel.

    I agree with Brodie - sb is the one chain I don't mind seeing.

    Hated the 7/11 s in Japan. You'd think that would be the type of franchise that localities could keep unique. It's not lime they manufacture anything but slurpies.  

    Parent

    Korea was like that too (none / 0) (#121)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:24:34 PM EST
    but in the little village we lived in they were mom and pop places.  They all sold the same items and there was one in every block.  We lived right over one, and the kids would go downstairs everyday to buy fruit essence water before it had even come to the U.S.

    Parent
    Not a Starbuck's fan (none / 0) (#56)
    by shoephone on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:20:36 AM EST
    namely, because there is so much better coffee here in Seattle. Starbuck's is actually among the worst, as far as quality goes. But they have nice stores and seating areas and wi-fi. However, now that H. Schultz is supporting the right of customers who want to come in openly brandishing their guns, I won't be going back for the wi-fi anytime soon. Bad move Howard.

    Parent
    Didn't know that (none / 0) (#61)
    by brodie on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:31:35 AM EST
    about Howie and the firearm policy.  Weird.  Is he trying to stabilize profits by catering to the redneck crowd?  And this is a guy who, if memory serves, was trying to give us Dollar Bill Bradley as a candidate in 2000.  

    Open firearms and caffeine consumption just doens't seem like a good mix.

    Well, I wasn't (cough, cough) trying to push Starbucks so much as I was saying, if we could get rid of all the chains and keep only one ...

    Parent

    Doonesbury has a story line all (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:38:31 AM EST
    about the guns/Starbucks policy; nothing like a little Doonesbury to show us the ridiculousness of what's happening in the world.

    Monday

    Tuesday

    Today

    Enjoy!

    Parent

    Ha! Looks like (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by brodie on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:50:18 AM EST
    Doonesbury is ahead of me on this one.

    Open firearms at the several local Starbucks in my area probably would cause a bit of a patron uproar, given the lib-leaning political demographics here.  If I were to walk into one and see an idiot with a gun, I'd let management know my feelings and inform them I would be taking my business elsewhere, preferably a place where I won't accidentally get shot just drinking an Americano.  

    Parent

    It all started with the last Seattle mayor's (none / 0) (#77)
    by shoephone on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:05:47 PM EST
    move to ban guns from the parks and community centers -- something which I think is a good idea and the gun nuts think is the New World Order restricting their rights. In the last two years, there was a spate of shootings at community centers and kids were killed. The proposed ban was in reaction to that. One gun rights guy, in particular, announced that he was going to fight the ban and show up at a community center meeting, openly wearing his gun on his hip, which he did. Boo-yah! That sparked a response from a bunch of other gun zealots, who decided they are going to openly carry whenever they go to a Starbuck's. Schultz and Starbuck's said "no problem" so now there have been some counter protests from gun-control advocates.

    Then Starbuck's whined about the protests and basically said, "why won't you stop making noise about this? Just be quiet! Leave us aloooone!"

    As you can imagine, it hasn't quieted anyone.

    Parent

    Guns and caffeine... (none / 0) (#92)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:32:18 PM EST
    truly a winning combination!

    Almost as good as guns and alcohol, or guns and drugs.

    While I get the 2nd amendment arguments, I guess I just will never understand the fascination with weapons.

    Parent

    Shooting is a skill, the more you do it (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:25:22 PM EST
    the better you get at it. Like attaining any skill, it can be very addictive.

    And guns themselves are like cars, or homes, or shoes, or books, or whatever. If you're into 'em, you're into 'em...

    Parent

    great stress reliever (none / 0) (#130)
    by CST on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:35:51 PM EST
    too.

    I have only tried shooting a few times, but it's incredibly relaxing.  I can definitely see the appeal.  Although I don't know that carrying one around would be relaxing.  Handguns make me nervous - even just holding them.

    Parent

    Have you ever tried skeet shooting? (none / 0) (#137)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:48:26 PM EST
    That I've only done a few times, but it was a lot of fun. Handguns are probably the least enjoyable for me, mostly because they're the least accurate. Target shooting and plinking with rifles are what I've done the most of. So much fun.

    Parent
    nope (none / 0) (#143)
    by CST on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:06:18 PM EST
    I really haven't done much at all, just target shooting with a rifle.

    And archery - beware the elbows!

    But it was a ton of fun.  And I learned that while I do not have the best hand/eye coordination whole moving - that's not really necessary for shooting since you are starting from a still point, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with my vision.

    Parent

    for success, just practice.

    Parent
    I hear ya brodie... (none / 0) (#59)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:25:57 AM EST
    I'm no great admirer of what these monolith corporations represent or how they do business...I just like a belly-bomber once in a blue.  And I think it is a case where any proposed cure will ending up being worse than the disease...look at how we've chosen to combat the scourge of drug addiction for an example...cure is worse than the disease.

    Parent
    Everybody's sin is bad (none / 0) (#138)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:48:53 PM EST
    except my sin is ok...??

    ;-)

    Parent

    3am (none / 0) (#85)
    by CST on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:26:03 PM EST
    anything goes.  That's the hour when you willingly eat cat.  Although I think I'd probably rather have that than taco bell :)

    I don't know that the chains will be embarrassed, but people might start changing their buying patters, which could cause some shifts in menus.  But don't worry, I'm sure someone (BK - I'm looking at you) will come in and fill the "I just want a greasy burger niche".  It just might not be quite as widespread as it is now.

    Parent

    The toys are mostly a waste around here (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:50:36 AM EST
    They all end up in the trash, some toys are better than others...not all are trash worthy just most.  For the older kids they could do something educational, little booklets of different facts....I think we moms and dads would like that better.

    Parent
    Chik Fil-a (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:38:17 AM EST
    has had some really good educational toys. My kids got books and programs with spanish and russian words as well as books like Duck for President. I also like that if the kids don't like the toys they can turn the toy in for an ice cream cone(as is done when the toy is a FoF product). That being said, I don't see a problem with letting kids be kids and the Happy Meal is not much more nutritionally defunct(particularly if you go ahead with nuggets, apples and fat free milk) than a Hamburger Helper or Kraft Mac and Cheese or tons of other processed products on the shelves created to help time crunched parents(which I would hazard would also be the primary reason to opt for fast food).

    Frankly, the time spent castigating the fast food industry for the products they serve would be better spent trying to understand WHY it is utilized(dual income households working 60 hour work weeks to keep US at peak productivity and kids that are overscheduled with activity after activity).

    Parent

    We have no Chik Fil-a (none / 0) (#117)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:17:43 PM EST
    that's big city man

    Parent
    Am I the only one (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:14:55 PM EST
    whose noticed how much Mickey D's has been targeting
    AA's in their commercials lately?

    "Here's something for that high blood pressure and hypertension folks..we already know how much you people like to live dangerously.."

    Time for the-politics-of-food guru, brother Dick Gregory to maybe spring into action again; for a little informational counterbalance here.

    Parent

    Hey, I remember (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by brodie on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:44:52 PM EST
    reading about Gregory's fruit-juice only lengthy fasts for such and such cause.  60s and 70s iirc.  Real anti-sugar guy, too.  Too bad there are still such few places in the black communities to buy healthy food.  Plenty of fast food joints though.  And liquor stores.

    Dick Gregory, a man ahead of his time.  Along with Jack LaLane and Henry Miller ...

     

    Parent

    Gregory starred in one of the best (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by shoephone on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:49:50 PM EST
    films about a jazz player. "Sweet Love, Bitter" came out in (I believe) 1964. Great movie for its time, and now too. For those who care, Mal Waldron did the musical score.

    Parent
    Well shoe (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:07:43 PM EST
    being from Seattle, your stock was already sky high in my book (I have many, many fond memories of Seattle), and now it's even higher..

    I havnt seen that film, but Im going to make a point
    of hunting it down.

    One of the best, treasured memories I have of Seattle btw, is hearing the legendary alto sax player Art Pepper lay it all out there at the Pioneer Square jazz club Parnell's, back in the early eighties -- I believe he passed away just a few months after that. What a night that was.

    Parent

    Pepper was beautiful (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:35:24 PM EST
    and when he spoke to the audience in between numbers, it was as if he were still playing.."I feel like Im turning into all these iridescent bubbles..that are pouring all over the top of the piano..and onto the floor.." :)

    Parent
    Pepper was a great alto player (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by shoephone on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:47:59 PM EST
    I envy you seeing him at Parnell's. That club became the area's first Jazz Alley. It and the U-district Jazz Alley are both long-closed now, Just have the downtown one left.

    Did you ever read Pepper's autobiography? Yeesh. He was kind of a creepy guy! But his addiction really did him in for awhile. And he did pay the heavy price with prison time.

    Parent

    Getting strung out (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:22:47 PM EST
    seemed to be some perverse rite of passage for most of those guys who came up in the late forties - early fifties. The list of people who went through that is practically endless. I'd like to think it didnt have anything to do with some unconscious If-I-do-this-maybe-I'll-be-as-good-as-Bird phenomenon, but I wonder sometimes..

    At least Parker had the excuse of getting started on it after being almost killed in a car wreck. Plus, Im not all that sure that if I were a very sensitive person living in country in which half the population looked upon you as slightly less than fully human, I might not have taken the big H self-medicating route myself.

    Parent

    So true (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by shoephone on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:35:06 PM EST
    Perhaps the most egregious act of all was when the police arrested Billie Holiday as she lay in her death bed at the hospital. They handcuffed her to the bedrails. (As if she had the ability to get out of that bed and escape?) She died about two days later.

    That episode ranks as one of the alltime worst.

    Parent

    Earlier on (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:49:13 PM EST
    they say Bessie Smith died, in part, because they could get her to a "black hospital" in time..

    Btw, If you havnt heard it already, Art Pepper meets the (Miles') Rhythm Section (Garland, Philly Joe Jones et al) is a fantastic record. Maybe Pepper's best work. Of course, as is the case with all of us, having a great posse helps tremendously :)

    Parent

    Now you've inspired me (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by shoephone on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 06:07:48 PM EST
    to create an Art Pepper station on my Pandora pages.

    Parent
    Urban gardening: Bring it on! Amazing what ... (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Ellie on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:11:15 PM EST
    ... anyone can grow in a small space (even indoors) with a little instruction and a starter kit that costs next to nothing. It's a great teaching / learning tool for families to explore together, too, even when they're not tending it at the same time.

    I'd love to see FLOTUS Michelle shift her message from obesity to nutritional health, and the myriad creative ways to add fresh food even to a junk-laden diet.

    Parent

    we are trying (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by CST on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:25:45 PM EST
    and have some spices growing in some windows.

    Unfortunately we can't plant anything in the little patch of dirt/grass outside since the ground has mercury in it.

    I did not realize this at first, since mom and dad live in the neighborhood and they've had a garden for years.  Turns out that didn't just "happen" and they had to do a lot of work over the years to get the soil into growable condition.  So I bought a bunch of tomato and pepper plants only to see them die brutal deaths in the toxic city earth.

    Next year I am gonna try to grow them in planters.

    Parent

    I learned a lot from researching Victorian London (5.00 / 3) (#151)
    by Ellie on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:20:36 PM EST
    Urban gardening has a long and fascinating history which is a great read all on its own, but it's a good entry level engagement and motivator for us non-green thumb types. I'm not a very good gardener at all, but I did learn enough to have fresh herbs and the fixings for a decent salad year round.

    Amazing what you can get just from a hanging bag of dirt! It'll even give you a nicer smelling place, an oxygen boost, a natural fire deterrent. It doesn't have to be the Hanging Gardens of Babylon (a great feat in urban gardening) to feel like Mother Nature blessed your house.

    Parent

    How very true (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:52:03 PM EST
    We had a an urban community garden that we worked on for years here in Rochester.

    And, the best kept secret is how deeply satisfying and downright fun putting your heart into a project like that is. And of course, the food couldnt be better.

    All the way around, good for the body and soul.

    Parent

    Jack Lalane (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:17:28 PM EST
    and Henry Miller..now that's a combination!

    Are you talking about the Tropics..Stand Still like the Hummingbird, Henry Miller?

    Thinking of those two together makes me think of the imagery from one of those Highway 61 - Blond on Blond songs..Marlene Dietrich darning socks for Charles Baudelaire..:)

    Parent

    I saw a funny film once about Henry Miller (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by shoephone on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:38:53 PM EST
    Throughout much of it, he was filmed playing the piano. He didn't actually know how to play, but it sounded good! And he was quite dramatic. Really hilarious. I'd tell you the name of it, but I saw it about 30 years ago. I'll have to google. If I recall correctly, it's about a 45-minute documentary.

    Parent
    Check out his (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:57:34 PM EST
    Dinner with Brenda Venus on Youtube (Miller was something like 83 at the time) Great stories and still the same old "I have no money, no resources..and Im the happiest man alive" joie de vivre.

    His stories about his literary mentor, the great, unsung French/Swiss writer Blaise Cendrars, are worth the price of admission in themselves.

    Parent

    Just recalling something (none / 0) (#185)
    by brodie on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:27:23 PM EST
    from Henry Miller's Big Sur book, back in the 40s iirc when he was discovering nature and apparently getting in touch with some early natural food folks in that region.  Miller was going off on the typical American diet, especially the tendency in this country back then to devour highly refined white flour based bread.

    Jack LaLane, a Bay Area guy, also deserves applause for trying to educate on natural diet/exercise.

    Of course, earlier than these was the unusual psychic Edgar Cayce, he of the 8th grade level of education, who in the early 20th C laid down the basic fruits/veggies natural diet, along with meditation and other wacky things like a little red wine daily, many of which are just now being rediscovered by the experts for their health benefits.  Though the record shows that in his normal non-trance everyday life, he didn't always follow his own advice, sadly ...

    Parent

    "What do I find wrong (none / 0) (#191)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:49:43 PM EST
    with America? Everything. I begin at the beginning, with the staff of life: bread. If the bread is bad, the whole life is bad. Bad? Rotten, I should say. Like that piece of bread only twenty-four hours old which is good for nothing except perhaps to fill up a hole. Good for target practice maybe. Or shuttlecock or duffle board. Even soaked in urine it is unpalatable; even perverts shun it..Yet millions are wasted advertising it. Who are the men engaged in this wasteful pursuit? Drunkards and failures for the most part. Men who have prostituted their talents in order to help further the decay and dissolution of of our once glorious Republic.."

    And so on and so forth

    Parent

    How ironic (none / 0) (#149)
    by cenobite on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:14:54 PM EST
    Considering fruit juice is laden with the toxic sugar fructose. The only safe way to consume fructose is in whole fruit.


    Parent
    Hey, MT (none / 0) (#125)
    by itscookin on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:29:40 PM EST
    I've waiting to find you on an open thread. Thanks for the comments about steam cleaning. I sprung for the steamer, and I'm actually getting through the spring cleaning without wearing a face mask! No wheezing and a lot less elbow grease, too. Merci.

    Parent
    I believe it was Ellie (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Zorba on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:46:54 PM EST
    who talked about the steam cleaner the other day.

    Parent
    Damn the Send finger's getting slow as I age ... (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Ellie on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:52:01 PM EST
    ... strangely, my flipping off finger-speed is improving. :-p

    Parent
    I have a steamer (none / 0) (#132)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:38:56 PM EST
    I think it was another poster though that day that was talking about how swell they are.  There is nothing like one to clean the bathroom though.  I just freshened my mattress too yesterday.

    Parent
    I'm still wild about my Lotus (none / 0) (#135)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:43:11 PM EST
    by Tersano for use in the kitchen. I can clean everything and it doesn't matter if food touches it, because it used to clean the food too of pesticides and bacteria.  I blew one up about a year and a half ago, but it was under warranty and they were very good about honoring their warranty.  Our water is very hard and it is hard on the system so that one went a couple of weeks ago. I bought another one, and while it was being shipped went back to chemical cleaners in the kitchen for about a week and it was miserable.

    Parent
    In case you're referring to my Clean-A-Thon ... (none / 0) (#166)
    by Ellie on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:49:44 PM EST
    ... I was waxing (npi) poetical about it on this thread. I also posted some other stuff (like green, make-at-home formulas that hands-down outperform the chemical-laden store bought stuff.)

    If not ... never mind. [/Litella]

    Parent

    It would be even nicer..... (none / 0) (#82)
    by lambert on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:21:29 PM EST
    ... to get a system that actually guaranteed health care for all, instead of forcing us to buy junk insurance. (See any enforcement in the bill? No, me neither).

    It would also be nice to have a discourse that genuinely put all options on the table. That's not on offer either.

    Parent

    Amanpour hosting 'This Week' (none / 0) (#5)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:00:28 AM EST
    Threatens the established system of male dominated process based political blather on Sunday mornings. Whatever shall we do? I know - gender trash her!  Excellent Tapped post here.

    And another Tapped post (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:03:34 AM EST
    here.

    Really Shales is just awful. Little Ms. Politics? gawd.

    Parent

    And see today's Greenwald. (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:13:18 AM EST
    The funny thing (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:18:42 AM EST
    Greenwald lays it out nicely - the argument that she can't be objective because she's from Iran (ridiculous).  Isn't her husband Jewish?

    Parent
    She may be Jewish herself. (none / 0) (#134)
    by observed on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:41:38 PM EST
    I thought the "pour" ending was a typical Jewish Persian name.

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#161)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:41:14 PM EST
    They were married in a Catholic Church.

    Parent
    Aaaargh! (none / 0) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 10:15:19 AM EST
    Good for Amanpour. (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by brodie on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:18:55 AM EST
    I always thought she was underutilized at CNN, and in the end her Sunday show came on at a time when most normal people were out and about for the day.

    Now, if ABC would only get rid of the annoying, humorless George Will, who's been there about two decades too long already.  Keep Krugman as a regular, and reserve the other Dem/liberal slot for a rotating small group of your more articulate liberal bloggers.  Not Ezra or Kos though -- they already get too much airtime on Msnbc.

    Parent

    Amanpour (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 01:20:26 PM EST
    unfortunately, called Will a "national treasure" in her first interview about hosting the show.

    Parent
    National treasure (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 04:42:30 PM EST
    that's the funniest thing I've heard in several days.

    I've always found Will, in print or in person, about as inspiring as a cold rectal thermometer. Night of the Living Dead time.

    National treasure..lol

    Parent

    Well, no great surprise (none / 0) (#187)
    by brodie on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 03:30:35 PM EST
    there.  She wasn't about to call him our national nightmare.

    Not with the kind of paycheck she's now getting ...  

    Parent

    With those (none / 0) (#72)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:52:28 AM EST
    who are eligible for health care through their employer being exempt from subsidies I'm not certain how this works out as the big shift in income redistribution being suggested from rich to middle class. Then there's that whole excise tax thing too. Basically, the way I  see this legislation is I see it pushing employers to not provide health care and push people into a dysfunctional market that I am not convinced is nearly regulated enough to actually be forced to provide healthcare.

    Hopefully I'm wrong.

    Digby made me do it: google (none / 0) (#76)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 11:59:07 AM EST
    "Jesse James."  

    Iowa campus in upheaval pre-Obama (none / 0) (#97)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:42:29 PM EST
    visit tomorrow, per family members there.  A niece had student-teaching hours canceled by the Secret Service lockdown and will have to make up those hours somehow.  All sorts of restrictions on roaming the campus, far beyond what I recall when Bush visited a campus in my neighborhood and from what another family member saw at another campus during the debates.  

    I wonder if the threat level has gone up, sadly, after the craziness of last weekend at the Capitol.

    From the reports from Iowa, the campus might as well have canceled classes.  It's always crazy when presidents pick campuses, and it sounds like it's getting worse.  "Education presidents" really ought to pick other sites, it seems.  No one is paying attention to profs anyway, says the niece, as they're all checking their electronic hand-held technology more than ever now, waiting to see which students win the lottery to get tickets to see the president tomorrow aka day four of campus chaos.  Followed by Friday, so the week will be lost for a lot of classes -- and some are still amid midterms.  Ha.

    Yep, serious threats up in Senate, too (none / 0) (#146)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:11:01 PM EST
    according to CNN.  Ten Senators having to seek extra protection with threats again them -- and their families, too.  Hoyer and Clyburn just held a presser on it.

    I bet that accounts for the reports received from family in Iowa as to more extraordinary measures, it seems, there as well for tomorrow's trekker.

    I feel for our public servants, after experience with a stalker, a former felon.  Threats to family, too.  Unacceptable, and the backlash back at the crazies may mean their tactics backfire.  I hope.

    Parent

    see waldenpond's post (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by CST on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:14:11 PM EST
    about the cut gas line.  Very scary stuff.  What nutjobs.

    Parent
    Anyone know when the passport cost increase goes (none / 0) (#100)
    by jawbone on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 12:47:03 PM EST
    into effect?

    I've googled and only find there's a public comment period, but expected date for increase from $100 to $135 for new passport is not coming up.

    Report from the field (none / 0) (#145)
    by lambert on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:07:43 PM EST
    Reaction to HCR (Higher Corporate Returns) at one forum in Manhattan.

    just got an energy audit (none / 0) (#162)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 02:41:58 PM EST
     its a pretty cool thing. for $25 ameren will send
    someone to your house to give it a going over, he was at my house about three hours, to see what if anything you need to do to improve your energy
    usage.
    I got a great little folder that breaks down the things I can do to improve my house next how much
    those things would be expected to cost next how much savings you could expect and how many years it would take to pay for them.

    this was great for me since I am thinking about buying that house. I found out its actually a pretty good one.