Joran Van der Sloot Says All Roads Lead Back to Elton Garcia

By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 08:25:00 AM EST
Tags: Joran Van der Sloot, Elton Garcia (all tags)

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In his interview with De Telegraaf (google translated version here), Joran Van der Sloot says he was lured to Peru from Aruba by Uruguayan/Albanian poker player Elton Garcia, who invited him to play in the tournament and paid for his trip. Why would Elton do that? [More...]

The paper suggests it may have been part of the FBI's extortion sting against Joran: that Garcia was working for the FBI and they wanted to get him out of Aruba because of concern Aruba would not extradite on an extortion or financial crime. It also reports no other roomat the Tac Hotel besides Joran's has security cameras nearby, suggesting they were put there specifically to monitor him. From the extended version of the article, translated:

In the police file it seems that one of his fellow poker players, Elton Garcia, has all the papers of an American federal agent with him. On one of the casino images he can be seen as a handsome man with dark sunglasses. Garcia was the one who on Tuesday night caused the body of Stephany (21) to be found. Van der Sloot was already on the run. He had the manager of the Atlantic City casino call the hotel to ask if Van der Sloot was in his room.
According to him, because he had a diner appointment with Van der Sloot, who he "barely knew". When nobody answered the hotel room door and a 'smell' was observed, the porter came in with the manager. They found Stephany.
In fact, Garcia has a more important role. He arrived eight days before Van der Sloot in the Peruvian capital Lima and took up residence there in Hotel Tac, a low budget hotel, which also can be booked per hour.
He had met Van der Sloot as "a poker player" and asked him to come to Lima for a poker tournament. There would be a lot of money to be won. He also ensured that Van der Sloot moved into the Hotel Tac, where Garcia was staying already.
Van der Sloot says about that: "That Garcia had arranged and paid everything for me. In retrospect I just want to hit myself in the head that I let him lure me. I barely knew the guy. It was just a setup. "
In the file, Garcia is also questioned by the police. He declares that he is one of the hundred best professional poker players in the world. He says he knew Van der Sloot from the internet and had met him at the casino, where he and Stephany played poker. When he heard that Stephany was missing, he was said to be worried about the both of them. He told the police he feared that both probably were "abducted", which is why he had someone call Van der Sloots room.
Did the FBI have an interest to continue the operation after the sting operation in Aruba? Without a doubt. In Aruba the private detective of the Holloways paid $ 25,000 to Van der Sloot, while filmed by the FBI. Ten thousand in cash, 15,000 was wired. But Van der Sloot would have to be away from Aruba, in order to arrest him. For extortion, he could not be extradited at that moment because Aruba only extradites for drug offenses.
When Van der Sloot was preparing to have himself admitted in the Netherlands, as his mother says, the fear was that he would be out of the picture completely. Peru was a better destination. This would explain the invitation of Garcia.
Did Van der Sloot commit his crime under the eyes of the FBI? What could an FBI agent do when he discovers a dead Stephany? He would have to find a way to tell the police.
And was the hotel prepared by the FBI? Very remarkable are the images of the door of his hotel room. It is striking that one and possibly even two cameras were pointed right at his door, in one of the images the doorknob is on the other side.

Joran's attorney may be embracing the FBI/Garcia set-up theory:

For Van der Sloots attorney Maximo Altez it is crystal clear. The FBI lured him to Peru to have him arrested and extradited. But Altez doesn't want to anticipate his tactics. However he denies that he has resigned from the defense. "My family had to go underground and the windows of my office were smashed, but I will keep fighting," said Altez, himself an ex-policeman, later after the interview with Van der Sloot in a hotel in Lima. "The police and law enforcement made huge mistakes and that's what I will now have a few procedures about. After that is over, that's when the trial will start. That is, if that will still go ahead because I think that I can get Joran out of prison.

If Joran was set up by Elton Garcia, I don't think it was at the behest of the FBI. It seems more likely to be a Holloway private detective caper, set in motion by someone like Bo Dietel, who learned of Joran's mother's plan to have him travel to the Netherlands for psych treatment, and in an effort to prevent it and ensure his availability for a speedy extradition, got Garcia to lure Joran to Peru.

I've written about the Elton Garcia puzzle a few times. Why wasn't he a suspect? His behavior and statements to police leave a lot of unanswered questions.

Reports remain confusing as to poker player Elton Garcia. I'd say his story doesn't add up but there are so many inconsistencies, it may just be his statements are being incorrectly reported. E.g., if they weren't friends, why did they make plans 3 days in advance to meet at a certain restaurant for dinner? Why was he so concerned about Joran not showing that he feared he and Stephany had been kidnapped, and why was he so worried he asked the casino manager to call the hotel or check the casino videos? If he was staying at the same hotel as Joran, why didn't he ask himself? And how did he already know Stephany was missing?
Another curious note: Joran's number was stored in his phone. (One report says he told police he did that unintentionally when he received a call from Joran, who got his number from another poker player.)
Reports vary about the last night. Some have Elton, Joran and Stephany playing poker together at an open table from 3:20 am, when she arrived at the casino alone, until 5:00 a.m. when Joran and Stephanie left together, with Stephanie driving them to the hotel -- to those saying Elton just saw Stephany and Joran playing at an open table.
It's been reported by multiple publications Elton was staying at the same hotel as Joran. His story makes more sense if he wasn't staying at the same hotel. Maybe those reports are wrong. And if not, what time did he get back to the hotel that morning?
Some reports have Elton saying he played poker with Stephany four times in May. Some say he played with Stephany and Joran. Other reports have him saying he never met Joran, just knew him by sight. (But they were meeting for dinner?)
He refused to tell police Stephany had won $5,000. the night she disappeared, only that she had won $2,000. from him earlier in the month.

Here's the Google translation of an article on Elton Garcia's statement to police.

Albanian: key witness
The witness said that on 1 June at 9 pm, went to dinner at the restaurant La Rosa Nautica and since she did not see Joran thought he could have been kidnapped along with Stephany. He told police that at 10:30 at night, when he returned to Atlantic City, told the casino supervisor named Katy to review the video. When viewing the tape found that Joran and Stephany were together at a table playing poker and they were seen out together.
"On June 2 when I went to the hotel TAC asked the receptionist if she had seen and I said no and that the police would come because they had found a dead woman in the room of that type. When police arrived they told me to see the body but I refused as I was shown photographs of the dead girl and I recognized it was Stephany. I also recognized them in the video as they enter the room and when he leaves alone," he said in his statement in the Dirincri.
Elton Garcia said he met Stephany the first week of May while playing poker at the Fiesta Casino in Miraflores. "We played with her four times in Atlantic City and the Fiesta," he recalled. (my emphasis)
"She bet 30 soles against 400 players, on one occasion she reached the final and won 2000 soles, it was if I remember two weeks before her death."
With this evidence the 6th Criminal Court ordered the arrest of Joran van der Sloot, who was captured on June 3 by the police of Chile en route from Santiago to Valparaiso.

On June 2, Elton is told Stephany is dead and shown photos of her corpse. He still plays in the poker tournament, and finishes 26th the next night (1:48 a.m on June 4) when he was eliminated, having won $5,800.

I think one problem with this new theory is its assumption Aruba will only extradite for drug offenses. The Netherlands and U.S. Extradition Treaty, which extends to Aruba, provides for extradition for extortion and fraud as well as murder -- certainly not just drug crimes. The Appendix lists 35 extraditable offenses. This site says:

The Kingdom of the Netherlands, including Aruba, is party to the 1988 U.N. Drug Convention, a member of the Financial Action Task Force (FATF), 6 and has an MLAT agreement with the United States. The United States–Netherlands extradition treaty of 1980 extends to the Government of Aruba, and provides for the extradition of nationals. Aruba also has criminal procedure code that allows for the extradition of Aruban nationals, subject to their serving any sentences imposed in Aruba. In addition, Aruba is a member of the CFATF.

(Aruba may not be part of the MLAT agreement to cooperate on fiscal matters, but that's different than the extradition treaty.)

Attached to the treaty itself is this official note from 1985 (concerning Aruba's intent to secede from the Netherlands Antilles and become its own country within the Netherlands):

By note dated Dec, 31, 1985 the Government of the Netherlands informed the Government of the United States that Aruba would obtain internal autonomy within the Kingdom of the Netherlands on January 1, 1986 and that as of that date the Treaty would apply to the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba.

What happened was the Netherlands went from being two countries, The Netherlands (Europe)and Netherlands Antilles (Caribbean) to three countries: Netherlands, Netherlands Antilles and Aruba. The extradition treaty applies to all three.

Maybe the Holloway detectives were misinformed about the extradition treaty, or thought Joran still had political clout left over from his father to avoid extradition, so they decided to take matters into their own hands and lure him to Peru. I just can't see the FBI spending two weeks in Peru to tail Joran -- what a ridiculous abuse of resources that would be -- so either it's a Joran fiction, or someone else set Joran up.

If Joran's room was the only one with cameras trained on it, the theory is worth considering and asking, when were the cameras removed? Before or after Stephany's body was found? Did police take them as evidence or did whoever installed them remove them on their own and turn selected footage over to the police? Was the Peru surveillance operation conducted with police knowledge? Has anyone looked at the 72 hours of footage from shortly before Joran and Stephany arrived at the room, until her body was discovered? Does it show if anyone else entered before they arrived or after Joran left? On a related note, did anyone actually see Joran drive her vehicle away from the hotel?

One more thing on Joran's confession: He also told the Dutch paper that Peruvian police on one occasion threatened him with physical abuse:

Van der Sloot said that he hadn't been mistreated during interrogations. "But there was a big bowl of water next to the desk during one of the hearings. They said they would put my head in if I was not cooperating."

If you were writing this new theory up as a novel, what would the next chapter be? That Elton Garcia got Stephany to lure him from the casino back to his room to play internet poker so the detectives (or FBI) could send him a Facebook message about Natalee Holloway, hoping to get him talking about her on a bug they planted in (and later removed from) the room?

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Joran Van der Sloot Says All Roads Lead Back to Elton Garcia | 87 comments (87 topical)

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Anyone here ever hear of Occam's Razor? (5.00 / 3) (#11)
by steviez314 on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 06:21:35 AM EST

Occam's Razor

: Indeed (5.00 / 1) (#12)
by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 07:10:11 AM EST

Some of you are over-conflating (5.00 / 1) (#40)
by Jeralyn on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 01:28:38 PM EST

the paper's new theory. To suggest the Holloways or anyone on their behalf intended to kill Stephany is beyond the pale and not even remotely suggested by this theory. Please don't post such unsupported and potentially libelous theories here.

From the Dutch article:

Did Van der Sloot commit his crime under the eyes of the FBI? What could an FBI agent do when he discovers a dead Stephany? He would have to find a way to tell the police.

Luring Van der Sloot to Peru and monitoring the room doesn't mean they knew what would happen in the room. Even if there was such a lure, while it could mean someone besides Joran killed Stephany, there's no reason to suggest whoever set up the lure expected anyone to be murdered. The theory merely suggests whoever set up the lure were hapless bystanders and then had to figure out how to explain or cover-up their role in setting events in motion.

: that's kind of a problem (none / 0) (#47)
by cpinva on Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 12:22:52 AM EST

with amateurs, the "law of unintended consequences", now isn't it? professionals would never have let mr. van der sloot out of their sight, and certainly wouldn't have allowed him to be in his room, with the girl, alone. because, you know, unexpected things happen.
if this turns out to be a half-assed plan by the holloway family, to entrap mr. van der sloot, they should face charges for criminally negligent homocide.

cameras and hotels (5.00 / 1) (#82)
by pac on Sun Jun 27, 2010 at 01:08:35 AM EST

Kasey: I don't know about the role of the FBI.

One thing for sure, if the FBI weren't there they should have been and if they were they shouldn't have been.. Something appears to have gone down dreadfully wrong and there is a possibility of a blunder if not something more.

Regarding hotels and cameras: To examine the background of hotel owners might help. Often they are clannish, some considered mobster related, etc. Possibly, it appears, some of them rent rooms, clean them and re rent without showing but one occupant, tax? Some have been accused of using cameras to indicate or blackmail polital figures and others in sexcapades and so on. The people who clean rooms are often accused of stealing resulting in the need for safes. So, the cameras could have significance if only directed toward Joran's room in some respect, yes. My point, some hotel owners might allow people, other than official such as FBI, to place cameras.

Whether or not it was the FBI who placed cameras?

In the past I saw written somewhere that the FBI wanted to take over the case in Aruba. While understanding their feel of need, and if true they attempted?, the assumption did appear a bit arrogant and world rule mentality. Or, better said an idea which could offend others. Now, if by some chance the FBI did try to take over and build a case against Joran and there was a blunder? ohhhhhh what an embarrassment that would be! so? would they admit or cover up in such a way typical of how Joran would be considered a sociopath for doing? under similar
circumstances?

At the same time, I would want all of the help I could get if my daughter was missing! If I had to call the FBI tonight I would depend on them and realize they could make a mistake with good intention. If a mistake is made with good intention it is still a mistake that was made but could also include negligence. For instance, one FBI might be more competent than another so there is always room for a failure which isn't on the part of the entire system. My ideas are just an attempt to ponder the ins and outs of it all.

I would guess that the FBI would moniter cameras more carefully?

If there lacks more known about Elton Garcia after this much time passed that is curious to me.

Was Elton Garcia drinking? on the job? if it was a job?

Here often Hindus own hotels and they appear to keep a list of all other Hindu hotel owners, numbers and so on as if they are a closely connected group. Possibly other Chinese hotel owners have heard something and have information.

anyone know? (4.00 / 1) (#24)
by pac on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 09:14:14 AM EST

Why is it that there was not enough of an extortion case to prevent Joran's travel to Peru but enough of an extortion case now?

Yes, Elton is (none / 0) (#1)
by JamesTX on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 02:47:12 AM EST

interesting, and conspicuously absent from most of the discussion and media coverage. The official line that he was irrelevant seemed to come very quickly and decisively. Ain't it strange how even the most glaring inconsistencies are so easily overtaken by the long established guilt in the "investigative" press.

wow (none / 0) (#2)
by pac on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 03:11:06 AM EST

Wow, I always try to wait for the new story. Somehow this story materializes isn't surprising but yet exceeded the nightly expectation.

Questions (none / 0) (#3)
by mellyrel on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 03:13:01 AM EST

I would like to know:
Which hotel was Elton staying at?
If he was staying at Joran's hotel, which room was he in? what is the layout of the hotel, and which room did Joran stay in?
What does Der Telegraaf mean when it says Elton had FBI papers? This doesn't make sense.
Did Joran REALLY take Stephany's car? Why would he take it, then dump it and get a taxi, all without his passport?
Who were the men in the white car who stopped them? Is this info from Joran or from the media?
When Stephany's ex gf was interviewed saying, "Stephany knew she was going to get into trouble" could this not mean that she had gambling debts/people after her already? the interview is always cut short- maybe the girl was alluding to Stephany being in a dangerous crowd-nothing to do with Joran.
Also- did he really have her credit cards on him? They could have been planted by the police.
If he was fleeing a crime scene, why would he take bloody clothes with him?
Why was a bloodstained shirt also found draped on the body? Did he take the clothes with him or not?
I think he is still now in prison wearing the same slacks! they aren't bloodstained.Neither are his shoes.The shirt looks like is has been soaked in blood, not worn during an attack.Plus the blood is on the back of the shirt and it looks like there are not spray marks on the sleeves?
Why does Joran not have any scratches on his body from a fight?

Questions (none / 0) (#4)
by mellyrel on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 03:20:08 AM EST

Why was the camera trained on Joran's room? It is a high spec camera too... bit odd for a budget hotel?
Where is the rest of the surveillance tape? How do the public know that someone else didn't enter the room in the 2 days before Stephany was found?
Where is the tape showing when her body was discovered?
Wouldn't they have tape of Elton to prove where he was elsewhere in the hotel?
Why did Joran leave the body out if he did it? why drape his own shirt over the body? why not use the do not disturb sign?
Why not settle his bill in advance and take his passport?
I think he got the call from his mother saying Interpol were looking for him- and he did what anyone would do and freaked out and dyed his hair.He wasn't thinking clearly.

more (none / 0) (#5)
by mellyrel on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 03:28:21 AM EST

I think Joran was contacted by John Kelly.JK states in one interview that Joran was annoyed that he brought no money and walked out on the meeting.He lured him back with just $100.I read this online, there was a video clip to go with it. Does this not sound like entrapment? The FBI did not hand over any money.But Twitty and JK keep trying to make it sound like they were involved heavily from the get go. I think Joran was desperate for money to fund his gambling and Twitty knew it and tried to set him up with extortion.He might think she owes him for all the hassle he has had in the last 5 years. I think (even tho it sounds far-fetched) that Stephany was told she would get money if she went to Joran's hotel room and stayed there.Maybe he was planning on going to the Chile tournament and going back to the hotel in a few days.Maybe Twitty's lawyer was going to meet him in Chile with more money?.Twitty might have hired a third party to kill Stephany, Elton being the middle man.It sounds convoluted but Twitty said she would not rest until Joran was in a 'Midnight Express' type prison.

John Grisham or Scott Turow (5.00 / 1) (#7)
by robrecht on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 04:29:35 AM EST

Twitty might have hired a third party to kill Stephany, Elton being the middle man

Others have floated this theory here. Someone even has the idea that Stephany is not really dead.

I read a lot of fiction and it usually all suffers from the same flaw, an artificial element introduced to move the plot along. Real life usually is more interesting. This novel has a supposedly guilty kid ending up completely innocent, all at the expense of turning a grieving mother into a monster of revenge. Realistic, nah. There's got to be something better for a long plane ride.


: They're very good writers, ... (5.00 / 1) (#19)
by Yman on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 08:17:46 AM EST

... but I don't think even Grisham and Turow could come up with the kind of theories that some are floating.

: Not fiction (none / 0) (#16)
by Untold Story on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 08:06:46 AM EST

A young man's life is at stake here. A young man who may well have been wrongly accused years ago and who has struggled to retain his sanity as he is forced to wade rough waters.
Hear Nancy Grace has a book - perhaps you could try it for your long plane ride!

response (none / 0) (#6)
by pac on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 04:14:23 AM EST

Mellyrel:

I don't think Mrs. Twitty hired anyone to kill Stephany.

Joran could have dyed his hair as a result of someone threatening to kill him?

The fact that Garcia, who claims to be a good poker player, was spending so much time keeping up with the whereabouts of Joran and Stephany if true, odd. Odd mainly due to adding on the other coincidences such as the 5th anniversary of Natalee disappearance, alledged extortion making more likely to be followed, the fact that there has already been at least one person secretly recording Joran so why not another, and possibly explaining the sudden message about the Holloway case and a supposed threat to kill Joran while Stephany is present, if true.

How is it that there was no firm enough extortion case to prevent Joran's travel to Peru but then enough for one now?

Abducted?? (none / 0) (#8)
by sweetmelissa on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 05:06:58 AM EST

What I find a little strange is that Joran tells the police in Chili that he and Stephany were kidnapped when they left the casino. And this Elton Garcia guy ask the casino manager to look over the video tapes because he's scared Joran and Stephany may have been abducted. I mean whose first thought when two adults leave a casino together and then one doesn't show up for dinner is that they may have been abducted? Could this just be a coincidence?
I also would like to thank Jeralyn for reporting the facts and not jumping to conclusions and being blinded by what everyone THINKS they already know about Joran. I find your post to be very thought provoking and informative. Thanks for giving me a website I can get unbiased and truthful information from!!

Explaining Bizarre Coincidences 101 (none / 0) (#26)
by robrecht on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 09:28:24 AM EST

This coincidence of bizarre explanations always appeared strange to me as well.

What was the last contact between Joran and Elton?
How well documented is it that Joran gave a story about he and Stephany being abducted?
How well documented is it that Garcia expressed concern that Joran and Stephany had been abducted?

Until we can answer these three questions, we don't even know if there is a bizarre coincidence to be explained. Lots of stuff has been reported, but obviously not all of it is true.


Hi Pac (none / 0) (#9)
by mellyrel on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 05:27:24 AM EST

I agree, it is pretty far-fetched that Beth would be hiring hitmen to kill anyone, especially someone other than Joran!

To extrapolate on the idea that he was framed for murder, means you have to guess who else would kill Stephany. The only other ideas I can think of are that Elton did it, or someone else entirely who we don't get to see on the tape. Or that maybe she isn't dead at all.. which is really out there I know, and I don't believe it, but to remove all possibilities I think you have to think of everything.

I am trying to think of all possibilities, this whole case is so unreal.

mellyrel (none / 0) (#10)
by pac on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 06:21:13 AM EST

Elton or others could have been a plant. Elton could have been a plant but that doesn't mean he killed Stephany. Considering the various aspects taking place blunders of some kind are highly possible? An extortion case, possible implication and so on adds to the possibilities. Stephany's role, if any, unclear. If someone actually sent Joran a threat the timing is another coincidence.

A good Franciscan monk (none / 0) (#13)
by robrecht on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 07:13:10 AM EST

The simplist explanation of all crime and evil (and heresy for inquisitors) is that the devil made us do it.

You are the Greatest, Jeralyn E. Merritt! (none / 0) (#14)
by Untold Story on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 08:00:01 AM EST

No doubt about that!

Absolutely, why is this Garcia under the radar? He lied to police about his 'friendship' with Joran at the get-go and should have been investigated (unless?)

As someone just said, odd his first thought was of abduction. Stephany's parents had the same idea, it seems.

Yet Stephany is floating around Lima at 3 a.m., alone!

Gracia's bank accounts need daylight as well as cell records. Are there any connections between Alabama and this Garcia. Or has Flores any business connection to Alabama? When did Flores last visit USA or Aruba? He is a business man and we don't know the state of his personal finances.

Has BH cast a spell over Kelly? How could he be involved in this mess - but he is and that's a fact.

The Flores seem so vendictive toward Joran, yet so kind and understanding of the FBI and BH's roles in paying $25K. Why? There should be raw emotion and, perhaps, later acceptance and much later some type of understanding. Weird behavior on their part has always been my feeling.

Joran needs excellent representation and there should be a defense fund set up to insure he does get a fair trial and all parties are properly investigated.

Seriously? (5.00 / 1) (#18)
by Yman on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 08:14:17 AM EST

Witchcraft? Hypnotism?


Fact (none / 0) (#21)
by Untold Story on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 08:36:44 AM EST

Kelly said he was in Aruba and personally (taped) handed over $10,000 cash to Joran.


Obviously Kelly played a role ... (none / 0) (#45)
by Yman on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 10:22:27 PM EST

... in the extortion case.

My point had to do with your inquiry as to BH's capacity to "cast spells".


Sorry, your overreaching (none / 0) (#49)
by Untold Story on Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 07:58:31 AM EST

Kelly is such a well respected attorney, I find it difficult to understand his involvement in a payment of $25k to Van der Sloot.

English is not my mother tongue. However, I keep trying and appreciate corrections such as this - my misuse of the word spell.


I don't find it difficult to ... (5.00 / 1) (#51)
by Yman on Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 10:45:56 AM EST

... understand at all. According to the FBI affidavit, JVDS contacted a cooperating witness (presumably Kelly), offering the location of NH's body and information about her death in exchange for $250,000. Only Kelly knows why he agreed to participate, but there are two very logical reasons why he might do so: 1) If the offer was real, to obtain some closure for his client (Beth Holloway) by locating the remains of her daughter and to find out how/why she died, and 2) If the offer was for false information, to put an end to the extortion of his client and/or get some justice (from her perspective) for his client.


Ponts well made (none / 0) (#67)
by Untold Story on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 01:45:33 PM EST

However, what would anyone with even average intelligence think a 22 year old, with a history of world travel, do with $25K?

Kind of reminds me of Bush invading Iraq and forgetting about the balance of power between the two!

Darn - another didn't think of that possiblity!

Sorry, Iran and Iraq (none / 0) (#68)
by Untold Story on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 01:47:31 PM EST

What??? Are you suggesting .... (none / 0) (#73)
by Yman on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 08:37:38 PM EST

... that Kelly, by agreeing to pay JVDS the money, should have forseen that JVDS would travel to another country and kill someone (assuming he did)? Or are you merely suggesting that it was forseeable that he might use the money to travel.

If the former ... seriously?

If the latter ... so what?

BTW - You are aware that JVDS stated that the majority of the money he took with him on this trip was from other sources, right?


Overreaching again (none / 0) (#75)
by Untold Story on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 10:07:57 PM EST

Did I say anything about killing anyone?

The two items you outlined as possibilities for handing over to Joran $25K suggests to me Joran needed to be accessible for charges, either murder or assessory to murder (if he knew where the body was or how she died); or charges of extortion.

He could have fled to a nation which doesn't have extradition to the US, such as the Grenadines or the Sheyelles.

So, in reality, doesn't it amount to simply a chance Joran would hang around long enough for any kind of charges to be filed? This 22 year old with $25K in his pocket, a world traveler, would just sit in Aruba and wait?


Oops, forgot (none / 0) (#76)
by Untold Story on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 10:22:24 PM EST

He had been invited by a guy he just happened to meet online playing poker to come on down to Peru to play in the upcoming tournament.

But Kelly or BH wouldn't have known that - so weren't they afraid of him skipping out of Aruba?

Or was the FBI supposed to be handling his not leaving Aruba? -- but then they didn't have any jurisdiction in Aruba to hold him there - and they, of course, would not know that he was planning on joining his new friend Gracia in Peru.


Not overreaching at all (none / 0) (#77)
by Yman on Sat Jun 26, 2010 at 12:02:48 PM EST

Just trying to make sense of your questions. I'm not sure where you're trying to go with them, but you seem to be suggesting that Kelly and/or the FBI should have forseen that JVDS would leave Aruba. I don't know why the FBI didn't arrest him immediately, but they've stated that the case "was not sufficiently developed to bring charges prior to the time van der Sloot left Aruba... This is not due to any fault on the part of the FBI or the U.S. Attorney's Office, where agents and prosecutors were working as hard as possible to bring the case to fruition when they learned of the murder. A case based on events outside of the United States is a complex matter, and work was proceeding with all deliberate speed to prepare the evidence, the charges, and the necessary procedures to obtain custody of van der Sloot." Link

Other than this statement, they haven't released any information about the timing of the indictment. More importantly, it doesn't matter. The speculation about fleeing to a non-extradition country or sitting around in Aruba waiting to be arrested is just silly. There's no reason to believe he was even mildly concerned about being arrested, and since the majority of the money he took to Peru was not the extortion money, he could have left Aruba at any time. Moreover, all of this is completely unrelated to your original point, which was questioning why Kelly would have been involved in this case.

The FBI shouldn't file charges until they're prepared to do so, and any speculation that they were ready to arrest JVDS prior to the time he left Aruba is just that ...

... speculation.


My point is quite simple (none / 0) (#78)
by Untold Story on Sat Jun 26, 2010 at 01:56:11 PM EST

why wasn't the possiblity of fleeing Aruba a consideration?

If the FBI cannot file charges until they are prepared to do so, then perhaps they should not arrange, or be involved in, making large payments to these same suspects thereby enabling them to get out of Dodge. Or, the possibility of getting themselves to a nation without extradition.

Please, from what source do you think JvS had money other than this $25K? You have labeled him a liar and now you support your theory on him being truthful as to where he attained the money to travel.

Obviously, Joran was lying about where the body was and, therefore, your reasoning #2 comes into play. Don't you think perhaps Joran was aware he was lying and that it would be just a matter of time before he was arrested and charged?

Your point - the agents and prosecutors were, no doubt, working as hard as possible to bring these charges to fruition when (or once?) they heard of the murder makes me question why this wasn't in place before money was paid out - and on that point, yes, I very much wonder how someone as well respected as Kelly was associated in any way with this failure.


Failure? (none / 0) (#79)
by Yman on Sat Jun 26, 2010 at 05:43:10 PM EST

You have no idea why the FBI didn't charge JVDS, and you have no idea whether their case would have been successful. You likely never will, unless he's acquitted of the pending charges, since it's unlikely the case will be prosecuted. The fact that he was arrested on new charges is no reflection on the merits of the extortion case.

JVDS himself, in his confession, described the source of his traveling funds. BTW - Where did I "label him a liar"? Clearly he has lied, but there is no reason for him to lie about the source of his funds, and simply because someone lies on one occasion does not mean you must discount everything they say as a lie.

In short, the extortion investigation was not a "failure", Kelly's involvement was entirely understandable, and JVDS himself identified the source of his travel funds. Everything else you're "questioning" is pure speculation.


: You have your opinion (none / 0) (#80)
by Untold Story on Sat Jun 26, 2010 at 08:50:36 PM EST

which I respect.
However, I am of a different opinion and I hope that you can accept that graciously and finally.
My speculation, in my opinion, does not consist of selective truth-weaving to make the appearance of a fit.
What I do feel is the giving of 25K was a diaster and should never have been done unless it was well established that an arrest was immediate.
You are right, perhaps the case could have and would have had merit. However, he will not be prosecuted so that is a moot point.

Untold Story: (none / 0) (#57)
by kasey9 on Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 09:47:36 PM EST

Well Said!


rebrecht (none / 0) (#15)
by pac on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 08:03:06 AM EST

robrecht: the simplist explanation that you post makes more sense than a lot of the others I have read.

Untold Story (none / 0) (#17)
by pac on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 08:14:10 AM EST

Respond Untold Story: Yes, everyone should be investigated as to what they were up to at the time.

Joran should have a fair trial.

The Flores family are probably still in shock.

Mr. Kelly probably feels lucky that he didn't get his neck snapped.

: How can we help make 'should' happen? (none / 0) (#23)
by Untold Story on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 08:43:16 AM EST

I'm withholding judgment... (none / 0) (#20)
by mike in dc on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 08:19:12 AM EST

...until I hear the prosecution and defense theories and see all the evidence(including anything that may be suppressed for procedural reasons).

: Why (none / 0) (#22)
by Untold Story on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 08:42:10 AM EST

do we have the release of only the incriminating evidence? If there were more it would surely have been leaked as well.

Dare I say this! (none / 0) (#25)
by Untold Story on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 09:26:58 AM EST

Occam's Razor is known today as tunnel vision, used frequently by law enforcement.

Ordinary person here (none / 0) (#27)
by waldenpond on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 09:44:56 AM EST

If I were a juror, I could wonder if VDS was in the habit of accepting money from other people and if Elton ever offered money to other people but I never would because whether Elton paid for Joran's trip is irrelevant to the crime committed, the amount of money won is irrelevant (only if evidence that VDS lured Stephanie to rob her), whether they were hotel or FBI cameras is irrelevant to the crime charged.

It's all interesting back story but that's all it is for a juror. I remember sitting on a jury and one person wanted to know the 'truth'. The rest of us thought that was odd.

Is there evidence of the crime charged beyond a reasonable doubt?

Also, this kind of back story is presented in front of US juries as strategy to confuse but this is a 3 judge panel.

: It is my understanding (none / 0) (#29)
by jbindc on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 10:27:31 AM EST

That Peru's standard of proof is "preponderance of the evidence" for the 3 judge panel - which is less than "reasonable doubt"

response Untold Story (none / 0) (#28)
by pac on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 09:50:33 AM EST

So, Mr. Kelly said Joran was as cold as ice intimidating psychopath and gave him $10,000. While Joran's mother is trying to obtain him psychological assistance someone financed a trip to Peru and Joran disappeared. While in Peru Mr. Garcia, a supposed casino hopping poker player carrying FBI pappers worries that Joran and Stephany have been abducted? Stephany is found dead and Joran now claims he was coerced into a confession stating that someone sent him a death threat which led to an altercation. Joran shaves his head and dyes his hair blonde before preparing to turn himself in to the police. Go to the comment sections and learn that it is being reported that somewhere in the midst Mrs. Twitty went for plastic surgery. Out of character in comparison to past Mrs. VDS feels her son could be sick in the head. Mrs. Twitty is out of character quiet for the moment. Although there was not enough of an extortion case to prevent Joran's trip to Peru, now there is? Joran is not considered a mental case in spite the many various stories, alleged involvement in a disappearance and a confessed murder. Joran is only found to have ADD. Could this really be a continuing soap opera or is all of this real?

: Pac - professional opinions (none / 0) (#41)
by Untold Story on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 01:59:30 PM EST

We need qualifications of those involved in 'evaluating' Joran.

Garcia (none / 0) (#30)
by Untold Story on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 10:45:27 AM EST

Why would he think they were abducted together if he hadn't seen them leave the casino together? And why have casino contact Joran's room - how would he know the schedule of someone he claimed to not even know?

The family also appear to have gotten the hotel information from the Casino. What is the time sequence?

Hotel employee says Joran indicated he would be returning when he left - then why he later considered in the room resting (with a tv blaring heard outside the room)?

Crime evidence photos - where are the dark red polo panties and the tennis racket? Her jeans seem to have one drop of blood. Photos also show her watch and ring (which her father insists were taken by Joran).

Why would Joran leave some of his clothing in the room, i.e., boxers, tees, if he didn't intend to come back?

Blood seems to be only on the white shirt. Obviously this was not with him but placed on Stephany's body. Did someone else place this incriminating garment on the body?

Joran doesn't have even a scratch.

What happened to the earlier story that where Stephany's car was found (El Surco) was also home to her boyfriend whom she picked up regularly on weekends? Did she become a lesbian to discredit the story?

No (none / 0) (#32)
by jbindc on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 10:59:54 AM EST

A court document obtained by CNN shows Flores had a cranial fracture and other significant injuries to her face and neck and showed signs of asphyxiation.
Forensic luminol tests in the hotel room where her body was found showed blood on the floors, hallway and mattress, the document said.
Flores' body was in such a decomposed state that an autopsy was difficult to perform, according to the document.
The autopsy revealed Flores had used amphetamines, it said.

CNN


Hallway? (none / 0) (#33)
by Untold Story on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 11:05:14 AM EST

Wonder if there is a video of the person leaving blood stains in the hallway? Or are they referring to the small entrance of the room as a hallway?


Shrug (none / 0) (#34)
by jbindc on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 11:11:37 AM EST

Just what the forensic tests are showing. Of course, if someone is predisposed to never believe anything put out by official investigators, then I'm sure we will hear a chorus of things like "It was planted", "It's faulty investigative techniques", etc. and many conspiracy theories of how this is a set up.

This is evidence that I'm sure we will hear about at trial.


: Hopefully all evidence (none / 0) (#36)
by Untold Story on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 11:31:54 AM EST

presented at trial will be made available for testing by the defense.
Immediately 'such a decomposed state' stands out!
Does the hotel have a/c, if, a/c would be required in mid-sixty degree F temperature?
Fresh stage or putrefaction stage after several days?
How could Gracia have been able to identify her by a photo?

Sorry (none / 0) (#31)
by Untold Story on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 10:55:08 AM EST

then why was he later considered . . .

One question left out -

Was Garcia ever photographed for scratch marks or or other marks of struggle?

Romex (none / 0) (#38)
by Untold Story on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 12:31:19 PM EST

wiring with three conductor wires and a bare ground wire to be connected -

life or death hangs in the right decision to identify the ground wire -

doesn't one's innate penchant for logical and accurate selection conclude a careful examination of all wires?

The bottom line (none / 0) (#39)
by BarnBabe on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 12:32:03 PM EST

Whether or not they were setting him up in Peru, etc. etc. I don't believe that a woman was purposelessly put in the position to die just to make an arrest and have a actual body. Now we wait for all the evidence to be disclosed.

note (none / 0) (#42)
by pac on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 04:56:08 PM EST

If the FBI or even a private investigator were involved in Joran a lure to Peru where a girl ends up dead isn't very impressive, face it.

blunder? (none / 0) (#43)
by pac on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 05:59:22 PM EST

Response: The Bottom Line

I agree with what you say, no intent for a girl to die for a body, but there was enough going on behind the scenes to reasonably question if there could have been a blunder of some kind?

With so many coincidences? but none of them having any significance?

set up (none / 0) (#44)
by pac on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 09:50:45 PM EST

Finally reading and searching addition news...

Joran's lack of history or reports of fear, harm by other females? Somehow it is difficult to imagine an anti social with disregard for women considering Joran's active social life, including many women, and the lack of additional mentions.

If by some chance Mrs. VDS's effort to obtain Joran psychological intervention was interfered by people less qualified to recognize mental instability or who preferred a crimal charge and a woman ends dead then who had a better grip on the situation?

The fact that Mrs. VDS defended Joran during the Holloway investigation but later noticed his changes in behavior enough for intervention, claiming that, in her opinion, it is possible Joran "could have murdered" Stephany and that he is "sick in the head" probably about as likely accurate as anything else put forth.

The fact that Joran could have been encouraged to Peru or could have been followed also likely considering the history and circumstances taking place at the time but? Also, there is a possibility of a blunder or the hampering adding to a meltdown.

The possibility of a set up and someone else murdered Stephany much less likely than a mental meltdown, my opinion.

Hmmm (none / 0) (#50)
by jbindc on Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 10:21:20 AM EST

At least one ex-girlfriend went on TV and talked about what a compulsive liar he was and his treatment of her. Now, she was on TV and getting her 15 minutes of fame, but you also make the blanket statement

Somehow it is difficult to imagine an anti social with disregard for women considering Joran's active social life, including many women, and the lack of additional mentions.

All I can say is - see Ted Bundy. He was charming and personable and had an easy way with women. Just because someone is sociable doesn't mean they can't harbor a dark, evil place inside. Is that the case with VDS? I don't know - but if that's his defense - "I have friends and a I date lots of girls" - then that is pretty weak.


: Traumatic experiences (none / 0) (#52)
by Untold Story on Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 11:43:18 AM EST

Ted Bundy was engaged to a Californian girl who broke their engagement. The majority of the girls he later murdered fit very much the physical description of that girl. Why did this rejection trigger his personality change so dramatically?
And has Joran's personality become psychotic due to the vigilante mentality which followed his every move over the past five years?
We have the death penalty so all investigation into the inner workings of the mind is eradiated. Preserving DNA from the past has proven to be quite valuable. One would think preservation of a human mind for continuous study might yield great benefits for society.

IMO (none / 0) (#46)
by AlohaMade on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 11:31:21 PM EST

I find this whole Fbi sting operation a little far fetched. But I do agree that this Elton Garcia guy is suspicious. I have said this from the begining. I did a little research on him today, and couldn't find much; however, he has stated to be in the top 100 professional poker players. Well he was registered with the LAPT (Latin American Poker Tour), but this Lima tournament was his first, and he finished in 26th place. He was in one more, in another Latin Country, can't remeber which. My point is wouldn't you have to have played in several to be in the top 100? Also maybe Elton Garcia recognized Joran, like Roberto Blades did, and maybe he looked him up on the internet like the Flores Ramirez family did, and realized Joran was dangerous, and maybe he wanted to warn Stephany without Joran knowing he was snooping around in his personal life? that would explain why he had the casino call the hotel. Bottom line, we have a girl missing in Aruba, and a dead one in Peru, and in both cases Joran was the last to see them alive!! I do not think that is a coincident. I also heard Michael Griffen saying that the Kalpoe Bros. are coming forth , and will become witnesses for the case (state or what they call it) against Joran. I really don't believe that Beth Twitty/Holloway would, go along with a plan like this, and I still feel sorry for Anita, she may have given birth to Joran, but she didn't make him a murderer, but Paulus, maybe.
Mahalo Nui Loa!

mongoloid (none / 0) (#48)
by pac on Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 01:15:02 AM EST

Respond to Aloha: One article I read earlier said the FBI didn't answer when asked if they were involved in a sting. So, assuming the article is correct ????

At one point one of the Kalpoe brothers also had himself placed on scene as one of the last to see Natalee. The story where Natalee is dropped off at her hotel. So, why would the Kalpoe brother place himself somewhere he now supposedly wasn't? at that time beyond me. He has also shown lack of integrity?

Garcia? Odd to me that just some poker player who becomes friendly with a couple of people while at a poker tournament would get so highly involved in whereabouts, saftey, or even bothering to look up any of it but?

It would be interesting to know who sent Joran the Holloway related mongoloid message about killing him which Joran's confession, if true, suggest brought on the altercation with Stephany.

Yes, Joran last known person to admit seeing Natalee and the last known with Stephany. In fairness and unless proof develops, that does not mean that Natalee was murdered.

I haven't seen anything yet proof about Joran's father to explain a hate campaign. The most I noticed is that Mr. VDS, while explaining legalities, said that without a body there is no proof, or something along those lines.

The Holloway circumstances are still unknown and the lack of an obvious history of Joran attacking or causing harm to ladies. What would have possibly been the characteristic, if any, that Stephany would have been attacked in such an extreme manner regardless the lack of such to any degree reported in Joran's other relationships with ladies? Stephany being a victim who ends in death and with nothing reported to assume such force could have been necessary? Has Stephany's background been checked and clear of violence? Joran claimed she hit him, true or not who knows? What characteristic could have brought forth something in Joran that wasn't typical on even a lesser level during other female contacts? Or, a Holloway online threat which led to an altercation and a meltdown that could have happened regardless who was in the room?

Response Untold Story (none / 0) (#53)
by pac on Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 06:24:51 PM EST

Response: Untold Story

A lot of friends and girlfriends, a lack of pattern or harm. Sure, you could jump way over there somewhere and find Ted Bunday but is that a stretch? or reading too much into the situation at this point? Granted, there is also a missing girl but violence or murder is unknown.

At this time the violence associated with Stephany is an isolated event?

Reportedly, Joran mentioned in the confession that the altercation with Stephany began with a Holloway related incident. Was there a possibility of an inability to further endure the results of a past trauma rather than a Ted Bundy?

No doubt the the injustice, overkill, regarding Stephany. The same harm by the use of overkill with accusations causes what mentally? that physical overkill caused her physically?

Joran has done enough at this point without the need for people to imagine or exaggerate.

: I am not comparing Joran to Ted Bundy - Pac (none / 0) (#54)
by Untold Story on Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 08:27:32 PM EST

as I do not consider Joran a sociopath.
I do feel Joran has suffered greatly over the past five years and how that has affected his personality, or anyone's personality under these circumstances, is something to be explored so that help can be obtained.
Joran's mother indicated he wanted to go to Peru where no one knew him and he could start his life over -- he is 22! And what happened - most if not everyone he met did know him - well, knew of him. Again, he was swimming with sharks, isolated, lonely and heartbroken.
I don't know and no one knows what really happened to Stephany. There are so many contradictory statements. The hotel girl gives great detail to the police in her interview. However, she states she sees the body and her nose was bleeding. Three days later a dead person's nose is bleeding? It would have been dark dried blood and in a moment (in fright) how could she determine it was blood? And, then you have the ME's statement the body was so decomposed ... so which is it? These seem to be reliable sources and appear to be the evidence in the case, but?

maid (none / 0) (#55)
by pac on Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 09:29:58 PM EST

Yes, I noticed reported that the maid said Stephany's nose was bleeding. The maid goes to the room with no expectation of finding a body, I assume. Each step she took to find a body and evaluate whether she found a live body or dead body must have required careful enough observation for her account to be taken seriously rather than brushed aside.

Yet, the fact that the maid took the time to turn out the lights and the television was odd to me. I think I would have run and yelled. She must have been strongly programmed to turn off televisions and lights or something?

One report claimed the desk clerk went to the room. I haven't read enough about what the maid said so will read and come back later.

Quick Release of Video (none / 0) (#56)
by kasey9 on Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 09:46:33 PM EST

They have been so quick to release and play constant "clips" of Joran entering with Flores, leaving alone and (now)showing Joran lingering in front of the door with two cups of coffee looking as if he has no idea what day it is...Where are the video clips of the person (hotel staff) who enters and found the body, where is the video of them leaving - so we can see their expressions...and then who ever else comes in contact or enters the room?

Elton garcia (none / 0) (#58)
by kasey9 on Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 10:09:49 PM EST

It seems odd, that if Elton garcia had Jorans number why didnt he call Jorans cell phone himself? Reports say Elton Garcia asked the head of the Atlantic City casino to call Jorans hotel room and shortly sometime after this phone call Ms. Flores was found...Although, they have Joran in custody...Can Elton Garcia leave Peru or has he been required to stay in Peru for further questioning?

I've read several news reports (none / 0) (#59)
by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 24, 2010 at 11:36:06 PM EST

that say Elton has been asked not to leave Peru even though he isn't a suspect.

Since he told them he couldn't explain how Joran's number got in his cell phone (he said he must have stored it accidentally when he received a call from Joran, who probably had gotten his number from another poker player), I suspect he'd say at that time he didn't know it was Joran's number.

Also curious that while he says he didn't know Joran well, only from seeing him at poker tables, they are at the same hotel for two weeks, and Elton was concerned when Joran didn't show for dinner at 9pm a few nights later, by which time he had already heard Stephany was missing. Who told him that? Who makes plans for dinner with someone you don't know? And then when they don't show, think a kidnapping occurred?

I think the opening poker reception was also at that restaurant that night, but Garcia specifically said he had plans to meet Joran there for dinner.

Again, it doesn't exonerate Joran, but it does murky the waters as to whether he was set up by Elton, either on his own or acting with Stephany, at the behest of Holloway investigators. (I completely discount the FBI's involvement in Peru.)


: Thank you. (none / 0) (#64)
by kasey9 on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 08:46:36 AM EST

There are so many "details" that simply do not make sense:
Ultimately, it seems that it was Garcia that led to the finding of Flores' body...Did he ever elaborate on why he would think the two were "kidnapped" as opposed to over sleeping etc.
I was also wondering, if Garcia and Flores had actually known each other prior and the two were setting Joran up somehow, is there a standing reward offered for the finding of the Halloway girl or any information that may lead to her whereabouts? (they would benefit from that)
The reports about robbery also don't make sense...When Flores initially sits down and she takes her purse out...Joran never looks at her or watches her as she takes the money out and lays it on the table...If someone was interested in robbing someone wouldn't he have watched her take her money out and try and see what she had? If she only won 700 - 800 dollars that night, that doesn't seem to be an amount that someone would kill & rob over.
Has anything developed from the under the fingernail DNA that everyone speculated & reported on from the initial breaking of this story?

maid (none / 0) (#60)
by pac on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 12:51:00 AM EST

So now I read and the desk clerk, or whoever, first went to the room and heard a television, knocked on the door but no answer. A maid or employee is sent who goes through the motions to discover Stephany's body, determine the long hair and other details such as a bleeding nose. Whatever she saw must have been making an impression! Also, more careful observation of the face than other aspects more likely. Even without thought out intention the maid would have used careful facial observation in an attempt to determine if Stephany had any life left or was dead? The maid would have noticed had the body been so decomposed as stated or what strictly defines decomposed?

As for the television and lights, It is more likely the maid turned off the television while making the rounds in the room before the discovery? but the lights? or maybe there is a switch that shuts off all at once? that much of a habit? not wanting to shed light on something? or, having trouble registering? I don't know. Articles mention the fact the maid turned off the television and lights but why bother to mention as a reporting necessity other than by the time the police arrived the room was no longer as Joran left it to some extent. No other reported differences in the room or how to know? or if anyone else entered the room other than the maid before the police arrived, or, if cameras exist on any access doors? or, if anything was taken?, or a chance for something to be added or just more questions than answers for sure.

: Video Camera? (none / 0) (#65)
by kasey9 on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 08:53:06 AM EST

Positioning of video camera/recorder:
Where are the other angle/shots of the camera...From the adjacent hallway...
Are there cameras focused on every room door in that entire hotel, or just the room Joran was in...It also seems odd on how clear the video is seems it is a lower class type hotel.

: My impression (none / 0) (#69)
by Untold Story on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 02:03:23 PM EST

of what the lights and tv are meaning to convey -
Joran, with intent to deceive, left lights on and tv blaring.
If the hotel is regimented to save elecricity, then why would this have not been done when Joran advised them he was leaving for a few days?

circumstances (none / 0) (#61)
by pac on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 01:54:40 AM EST

For the Holloways to have a private detective is easy to assume considering the original circumstances but even more focus than usual likely due to the alleged extortion and transfer of money operation. Someone other than the FBI would be less trained to deal and make decisions regarding someone mentally unstable as well as other respects. So, I easily believe the prospect or the possibility that the Holloways had Joran followed and the possibility of a blunder. At the same time, there has been a theory out there about the possibility of an easier transfer of Joran from Peru for extortion so? I am unqualified to know how serious to take some of the theories.

No one knows what Joran told the Holloways or Mr. Kelly other than a version they passed along. Considering they are not obligated to show all? did they not have a case to prevent the trip to Peru because Joran gave them true information or ? no one knows if Joran gave a reason to need money in exchange for information, such as need to ex. relocate, etc. and or why. Also, more reason not to let Joran slip away when they are anxious for an arrest? There is also the possibility of someone unrelated to a Holloway hire who could have a problem with Joran but somehow connected, implication.

Add the possibility of Stephany snooping through Joran's computer and or an online message leading to the possibility that Joran went to Peru and one thing led to another which could have ended in a meltdown. For Stephany to snoop through Joran's computer would appear more likely for a girl who might have romantic interest in him or why snoop unless the online message was before he supposedly caught her snooping? or was Stephany knowingly or unknowingly part of a set up?

If the cameras were intentionally placed? then what the need to have film of Joran coming and going from his room unless the set up involves another person. Joran alone could leave his room and the country without anyone knowing just by use of a camera.

But, a lot of coincidences yes and some of them not a possibility but fact.

Elton Garcia (none / 0) (#62)
by pac on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 03:25:47 AM EST

Cameras: There isn't much to indicate careful monitering of a camera by anyone with good intent knowing Joran left with suitcases and Stephany's length of time in the room.

If Stephany's family began looking for her and that is what led to the discovery of Stephany's body, it is unclear to me how Elton Garcia became involved. I have not watched any television. If Elton Garcia was suppose to meet Joran for dinner then he would not have espected him to leave town before then, a kind of way to keep tabs, maybe.

The fact that there is so little information about Elton Garcia is unusual. Why such difficulty to learn more about him? At least there is a picture of him obtained.

Joran's number in the telephone? Just another coincidence? How many now?

absent news (none / 0) (#63)
by pac on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 05:03:01 AM EST

Yes, also odd that Elton Garcia absent from news reports as stated in comment above.

Elton Gracia identifies body from photo (none / 0) (#66)
by Untold Story on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 01:09:40 PM EST

He didn't want to see the body apparently. Where is he located when he views the photo? In the hotel or in the casino?

On the other side, the ME states the state of decomposition is so great . . . yet Elton can identify the body of a girl he hardly knew?

The lights and tv turning off is certainly bewildering to the average person - immediately after someone finds a dead body unexpectedly??

Small differences in her version of the volume of tv - first she said it was full volume, but descrubes it (after entering the room) as average of normal volume?

Who did call police - we know the hotel did, but didn't the family say they called police also about a kidnapping? Then when they reviewed the casino tape (since owner was a friend of father's) they 'knew' she left with a murderer and found out he where he was staying. . .

Two many details on one hand and so few in the other.

Expulsion or extradition (none / 0) (#70)
by Untold Story on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 03:37:51 PM EST

Questions:

International arrest warrant - when was it actually served? The morning of the 4th or the night of 3rd?

My understanding is it was for theft since he was only a suspect in murder?

Theft - what, if anything, of value did he actually take? Her jewelry (watch and ring) are shown on her body in the crime scene photos (later they are stated as missing); her credit cards were said to be in the room; what money was actually in her possession? $300 as stated? Her car, Joran took a cab from the hotel to the illegal crossing at Chacalluta, Chile, hence, he was not in possession of her car it would seem. Where are her car keys?

Petty theft - is it less than $500 in Peru? And could petty theft justify an international warrant for arrest?

Also, while Joran was being held in Chile and the authorities had possession of his computer, preventing him from receiving an email from his Dutch attorney, Bet der Rooij, asking if he could be of assistance, is this the violation of his communication rights?

DNA reports (none / 0) (#71)
by kasey9 on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 06:48:09 PM EST

From the minute Flores' father held up Jorans picture - he verbally stated: there is DNA under the fingernails of my daughter and when Van Der Sloot is caught they will have evidence that he killed my daughter...(Jane Velez Mitchell aired that portion again tonight) and now they say, there is very little skin under her nails...what does that prove...they obviously had physical contact, we saw him shake her hand in the hotel video. It certainly sounds as if there was ground work laid pointing directly at Joran...finding him guilty and we have heard many cases where there is corruption & evidence is planted.

First Day (none / 0) (#72)
by Untold Story on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 07:52:48 PM EST

General Cesar Guardia of Peruvian police stated,

"Stephany Flores was found lying face down on the floor of the suspect's room. She was fully clothed . . . authorities found no potential murder weapons in the room."

The hotel clerk found her face up.

First she was stabbed, then the baseball bat turned into a tennis racket, jewelry missing (jewelry on her in crime scene photos), credit cards in room (credit cards now missing), car found in a slum part of Lima called
"El Surco" where her boyfriend lived and from where she would pick him up every weekend.

How would Joran know where to live the car? Way too much of a coincidence to be plausible. And, this was Sunday - so what happened to prevent her picking up her boyfriend the last weekend in May? Why is no mention or no name given for the boyfriend?

News Article: Cameras... (none / 0) (#74)
by kasey9 on Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 09:55:23 PM EST

Meanwhile, questions arise about the role of the FBI. There is a growing number of indications that the federal police surrounding the death of Stephany Flores an undercover operation against Joran performed. In the hotel where the girl was found, for example, show the total lack of security cameras that were designed to hang in room 309.

The cameras are not standard and are hung in every case removed, it revealed yesterday during a visit to the Hotel in Lima Tac.

The Chinese family, who run the hotel, has a gag order. Stayed in the hotel along with Joran a poker player, possibly an American agent, who persuaded him to come to Lima. He was also the hotel it indirectly reminded that Joran was gone and the room had to be initiated. The presumption is that the Peruvian Police, the FBI also received the observation images.Joran told The Associated Press that this man, Elton Garcia everything for him "was arranged and paid for".

Mr. kelly (none / 0) (#81)
by pac on Sun Jun 27, 2010 at 12:20:14 AM EST

Untold Story: Back there you mention Mr. Kelly.

Without any television, a lot of reading time, or all facts, it appears to me that Mr. Kelly went outside the scope of his profession. Reportedly, whether or not Joran actually is, Mr. Kelly said he was a "cold as ice psycopath" which means he admits he believe Joran was mentally unstable. Regardless Mr. Kelly, unqualified to diagnose, believed Joran was mentally ill when they spent Easter Sunday together in a hotel room. Mr. Kelly had a lot of reason to think so before that observation considering the many and various confession stories which he must have been aware.
Even if Mr. Kelly was incorrect in his diagnosis of Joran, he felt he had reason to think Joran was mentally unstable.

Mr. Kelly would appear much more professional had he insisted that Joran have the company of his lawyer, for one thing.

More but???? what is the most important area to focus at this time?

: Absolutely Pac (none / 0) (#87)
by Untold Story on Sun Jun 27, 2010 at 10:01:59 AM EST

this should not be the focus right now.
I was grilled over my questioning of Kelly's role, someone I admire greatly, and felt it necessary to defend my position since I didn't earlier on what I questioned, 'and I ask is Stephany really dead' - which transformed into, among other things, that I stated, for a fact, she wasn't dead. It was merely a question put out there as a result of many stories being reported by what first appeared to be reliable sources, police, including from finding the body, condition thereof, extending to the various causes of death.
Wise One - "There are two sides to every issue, one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil." Ayn Rands
I may present a different side than you, but I am not smitten :)
Hopefully, enough DNA will be obtained to rule JVdS in or out.

theory (none / 0) (#83)
by pac on Sun Jun 27, 2010 at 01:47:59 AM EST

Untold Story:

Fully clothed, partly clothed, all I can say is both can't be correct.

One possibility is that the difference in the more lively Stephany at the casino than when entering the hotel with Joran is that she was crashing from the speed drugs. Possibly she was tired which would explain if she removed any of her clothes for rest. Some people are less inhibited about running around without a lot of clothes, or prefer to not have a lot on to sleep. I saw a picture of Arnold Swartsneggar pulling his bathing suit off on a boat to change clothes in view of his mother in law. So, how much dress sort of depends on the person.

If Stephany's car found in a slum area? baseball bat turns into tennis racket? anything missing from the room? Okay, if you are asking me to make a case for the sake of theory I will try. Without much thought and maybe more will come later but

Only in theory, the maid was in the hotel room and turned out the lights and television after finding Stephany. She could have picked up items in the room. Maybe that is why she didn't want to shed light on the situation and turned the lights out? I read somewhere that the maid and someone, Juan, passed Joran when he went for the coffee. Without knowing what is on video, Juan had easier access to the room than others, thinking because of the maid. Joran appears a big enough guy to have killed Stephany without so many various methods. Where does the maid and Juan live? Anyone in the room could get car keys.

Or, Garcia? Gee, maybe he can steal keys off the maid cart or maybe for a few dollars a maid will give him a key if he loses his, such as a pass key. Or, maybe he is connected to the mob and picked that hotel for a reason or?, maybe he is FBI or private investigator and started drinking too much and didn't moniter the cameras, or maybe the intent was to kill Joran and he had already left the room. or, maybe he had federal agent papers on him, but wasn't one, and showed those or had someone else show those to obtain a key or set up a camera, or too many possibilities to sort without more information. Put his picture out there and let people comment. Someone will recognize him even if he uses alias names.

One person could kill Stephany and another take items. Not all must be the same person considering others in the room.

Joran could run off in Stephany's car due to a threat toward him. He could also intend to contact her later to the whereabouts of her car.

If Stephany and her father had a disagreement that could explain her staying at the room, the crashing of drugs could explain her staying longer to sleep. I read somewhere that Stephany texted a girl friend to say she was going upstairs to her room when in fact she was with Joran. True? but if so, Stephany was providing misleading information too so? why?

What was going on? Usually the most obvious but not always and especially if there is a set up or even a cover up.

All just some thoughts in theory. If you like to bounce something off of someone sure but somewhere I read that Joran's lawyer is not trying to find him innocent at this point? is that the case?

Elton Garcia images (none / 0) (#88)
by Seaweed on Sun Jun 27, 2010 at 11:54:09 AM EST

Dont normally post here, but came across your forum while researching Elton a bit and I found some interesting posts here. Thought you might like some better pics of Jorans non-friend Elton:

http://i47.tinypic.com/o56xb9.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2mwcm5t.jpg


: thanks, (none / 0) (#89)
by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 29, 2010 at 05:28:19 AM EST

those are good ones, and yes, they are him.

identify (none / 0) (#84)
by pac on Sun Jun 27, 2010 at 01:49:48 AM EST

Okay, I don't know if true but for just some guy staying at a hotel to identify Stephany's body sounds real weird.

set up theory? (none / 0) (#85)
by pac on Sun Jun 27, 2010 at 08:01:08 AM EST

So, why did the maid think she saw a guy? possibly because it was Joran's hotel room? or she just thought at first that the body appeared a guy? or thought there was suppose to be a guy? if you really want to go there. I can't remember when the maid said she observed, or someone observed? or whoever was told that Joran would return and not to bother his girl, if true? It appears that the maid, unlike here, has desk and cleaning duties?

In hindsight on video did Joran shut the hotel door quietly? I don't know where the video is anymore, just curious.

Just in theory but could it be that hotel is often used to transfer people out in the maid cart?

In theory, could it be there is always a camera on that one room and that is the room which is always used for unusual purpose? Or, how the cameras operate such as a location to be turned on and off or if turned off can be detected having been so for a period of time? Who would have access?

I don't know in Peru if hotels give pay offs due to prostitution and so forth? No clue the ins and outs of Peru. So, no idea the relationship of the hotel with police, if any.

Has anyone checked to determine how many other crimes reported or investigations at that location?

From what I have read the FBI were involved in the extortion aspect by the time Joran went to Peru, and, if correct, do they go along with a private investigator hire to tote money or lure? Possibly a private investigator can follow but I don't see... but then Mr. Kelly totes money without approval, if true so?

Or is it that with Joran's confession standing the set up theory is out and can't be used? He could be mentally unstable and set up? or, he confessed and will be represented according to his confession?

The comments vary as such it is difficult to determine if there continues to be a desire for set up theory or if a set up theory is of any importance even with the desire of some at this point?

robbery (none / 0) (#86)
by pac on Sun Jun 27, 2010 at 08:21:00 AM EST

Oh okay, I forgot to say in theory the only reason to take Stephany's body out in the maid cart would be if due to robbery, not a set up. There was something mentioned about missing jewelry, etc.

But, some conspiracy theory could afford the prospect of taking Joran out in the maid cart if there was a set up to murder him.