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Rude or Disorderly: Where's the Line?

In the mail today, and reprinted with permission, (I'm leaving out the name of the town.)

I live in xxxxx, WI.

I was in the 10 items or less line at Piggly Wiggly (grocery store).

A woman had 60 items. I asked her if she could read. She replied, "Do you have a problem with this?" I said 'Yes.' She said 'Deal with it.'

I asked if she thought she could get away with this because she was fat and ugly. She dialed 911. I'm looking at a $423.00 ticket for disorderly conduct. I hired a lawyer.

Something is wrong with this world. Is it me? [Signed] J.

J. says he didn't use foul language, was not threatening and the only person affected by his comment was the woman who provoked him.

Is this worthy of a 911 call? How can it be considered a crime? My take: The woman should have been cited for misuse of the 911 emergency reporting system. J. may have been rude, but didn't commit a crime. What's your's? [More...]

All states, including WI, prohibit false reporting of emergencies using 911. Here's a typical ordinance from Milwaukee, posted on a police forum:

105-77. Misuse of Emergency Telephone Numbers.

1. PROHIBITED ACTS. No person shall:

...b. Intentionally dial the emergency telephone number "911" ... for purposes of communication not relating to the reporting of an actual emergency.
...

3. PENALTY. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall, upon conviction, be subject to a forfeiture of not less than $50 nor more than $300, together with the costs of prosecution, and upon default of payment be imprisoned in the county jail or house of correction not less than 2 days nor more than 12 days.

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  • Display: Sort:
    If I were the cop who responded to that (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by tigercourse on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 01:00:32 PM EST
    call I would have been really pissed. I can't believe that ticket was written.

    Believe it... (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 09:21:40 AM EST
    municipalities are broke...officers have ticket quotas.  It's all about the benjamins.

    Parent
    I think you are right about this (none / 0) (#173)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 10:04:41 AM EST
    I think we all have a lot of tickets in our future where we will all stand there and scratch our heads.

    Parent
    Luckily... (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 10:14:10 AM EST
    we still have some decent judges who will toss 'em like the rubbish they are, if you have the stomach for the hassle of going to court, missing a day of work, etc.

    City Hall and the police are banking on our laziness to just pay 'em.

    Parent

    Just curious (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by sj on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 01:16:47 PM EST
    As to whether both parties were given tickets.  If a disorderly conduct ticket was warranted for one action, it surely should be warranted for the other.

    The problem of the woman with too many (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by Anne on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 01:27:32 PM EST
    items - way too many items - in the express line should have been addressed to the cashier, not the woman who already demonstrated that the "rules" are for other people.  Given that the cashier did not stop the woman from loading up the belt in the first place, J should have (1) found another line and then, (2) spoken to the manager on the way out of the store.

    See, the "special people" simply do not care what their actions mean to others; these are the same people who disregard right-or left-turn only lanes, drive on the shoulder when traffic is heavy, take up two parking spaces because their precious car deserves extra space, think "yield" is for everyone but them, and, yes, don't understand why it's a problem to take up an express line with a full cart-ful of items.

    They get mad at you for pointing out their inconsiderate attitude, and will never, ever see themselves as being in the wrong; you just have to "deal with it."

    If citations needed to be issued, they should have been issued to the woman who called 911 because of J's words.

    While it would be nice if there were something that would teach the special people some consideration of others, I think it's one of those things that is generally an exercise in futility.

    I prefer to take an approach of "thank God I'm not like that," instead of eating myself up about something I can't control.

    Exactly why I did NOT confront (none / 0) (#26)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 03:06:22 PM EST
    the rather large man who rushed to his seat in the middle of the row in front of me while Emanuel Ax was divinely playing a Shubert "Impromptu" this week.  I did go so far as to talk to the house manager, determine the man was told to wait until intermission to go into the auditorium, but bolted past the usher.  I also determined the man is not a big donor.  

    Parent
    So much smarter than I am :) (none / 0) (#185)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 11:25:43 AM EST
    Doing a bit of investigation checking out the tidal currents before you throw your whole self in up to your neck :)

    My dog problem does appear to be over though in spite of my zealous self.  Under the circumstances though, if some magistrate had ruled that my dog had to be put to sleep over what happened I would have probably lost it and ended up in jail for a bit.  I don't place my pets in the same catagory as the kids or grandkids but it is close.  And the dog in question has been temp tested and even goes on library tours in the summer where twenty little kids have had their hands all over him at one time.  

    Parent

    Happy for you this incident is closed. (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 11:40:23 AM EST
    A good friend spends lots of time and energy with her dog a library so kids can read to the dog.  Also at hospice.  

    Parent
    Those of us who (none / 0) (#157)
    by JamesTX on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 12:28:18 AM EST
    are predisposed by appearance, gender or natural intonation of voice to be considered the "perp" in any situation learn the lesson of non-confrontation early in life. It is always the easier route. But there is a sense of vicarious justice in seeing someone who is allowed to complain do so when it is called for!

    I live in an area where there are two supermarkets of the same chain equidistant from my home. One is in a low-income/high-crime zone, the other nestled in among pricey gated suburban subdivisions. The differences in quality and availability of merchandise is second only to the differences in the checkout situations. They have recently removed the self-scan checkouts in the war zone, obviously because of theft. Now the 10/20 item rules are important, as the time to get out of the low-income store can run up to 30 minutes. There is a full lane of six self-checkouts at the high end store, and the waits are rarely more than a minute.

    Parent

    Why not apologize? (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Natal on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 03:30:12 PM EST
    Tell her that you're sorry and regret saying something offensive.  And I'm not usually like that.

    Wait for her response and I'll bet it'll completely disarm her. And she may demonstrate that she too is not a bad person by apologizing back.

    I think you'll both sleep better afterwards.

    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:47:18 PM EST
    Someone who called 911? This is fantasy imo.

    Parent
    This is from a blog (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:10:52 PM EST
    so I can't vouch for accuracy:

    "Wisconsin Disorderly Conduct Laws

    Under Wisconsin Statute 947.01 - Disorderly Conduct - police are given very vague and very broad authority to arrest people in both public and private places (including their homes) for any conduct that may (in the police officer's opinion) be either provoking or causing a disturbance currently, or that has the potential to provoke or cause a disturbance after police leave the scene.

        WI Statute 947.01: Disorderly Conduct. Whoever, in a public or private place, engages in violent, abusive, indecent, profane, boisterous, unreasonably loud, or otherwise disorderly conduct under circumstances in which the conduct tends to cause or provoke a disturbance is guilty of a Class B misdemeanor.

    Police arrest people for disorderly conduct by citing many types of behavior. As well, the behavior that could be classified as being "disorderly" need not be currently obvious. The behavior could have occurred prior to police arriving on the scene. Even if no disturbance appears to be occurring at the time that police arrive on the scene, but it appears to a police officer that there is a potential for the behavior to continue after police leave the scene, an arrest can (and often does) occur."

    We have a GREAT Section 1983 case here and a facial challenge to the statute. But better is the "as applied" challenge.

    As long as we are playing armchair lawyer, what was the period of time between the 911 call and the arrival of the police officer?

    Did an altercation occur?

    Did the store clerk finish checking out the other person's purchases before the arrival of the officer?

    Did anyone from the store make a statement to the police?

    Hell, we can turn this into a federal case, no problem.

    What really throws me off (none / 0) (#80)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:15:45 PM EST
    is the $423 ticket.

    That seems like a violation type treatment but the disorderly conduct law seems to refer to a misdemeanor with sentencing issues.

    Facts are murky here.

    Maybe there is a different charge involved here?

    Parent

    Sure would like to see police report. (none / 0) (#91)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:30:20 PM EST
    HYPOTHETICALLY (none / 0) (#99)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:36:46 PM EST
    I would like to see the ticket.

    Parent
    As soon as the Pads finish off the Giants (none / 0) (#105)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:40:00 PM EST
    I won't care!

    Parent
    report (none / 0) (#121)
    by lostinwisconsin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:54:07 PM EST
    my lawyer will get access to report, yes?

    Parent
    Hypothetically, there may not be (none / 0) (#130)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 06:09:01 PM EST
    a report.  Just the citation, which you were probably provided a copy of at the scene.  The law enforcement may have written a few notes on the back of his or her copy.  

    BTW, Jeralyn constantly advises people facing criminal prosecution to keep quiet.  Don't discuss this w/your friends or relatives or fellow workers--just your attorney.  

    Parent

    there should be at least a few sentences (none / 0) (#148)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 08:52:21 PM EST
    even if it's just on the ticket and not a separate report.

    And yes, the comments you make here could be used against you.

    This has veered far from the issue -- is it free apeech, did the accuser commit an offense of misuse of the 911 emergency reporting system, and should insulting words about physical appearance, without a threat or public disturbance be treated as a criminal offense.

    Lost in Wisconsin, once again, please rely on your lawyer not comments here. And good luck.

    Parent

    Please research any constitutional (none / 0) (#111)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:45:47 PM EST
    challenges to the Wisconsin statute.  

    Parent
    HYPOTHETICAL (none / 0) (#116)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:48:15 PM EST
    challenges.

    Parent
    Here's one: (none / 0) (#120)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:54:00 PM EST
    Subsequent abstention cases (none / 0) (#125)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:57:34 PM EST
    cut the other way.

    Parent
    Here's a "void for vagueness" challenge (none / 0) (#132)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 06:13:39 PM EST
    (in the form of a civil lawsuit) to the WI disorderly conduct statutelink

    Parent
    In my state of Pennsylvania, (none / 0) (#133)
    by Makarov on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 06:16:11 PM EST
    the ~$400 'ticket' would be mean a summary offense, same as a traffic ticket. These are adjudicated by local magistrate judges without a jury. There is no prosecutor, only the cop who wrote the ticket (if he fails to show, you get off). You're actually required to post $50 or more as a sort of bail in order to get your 'trial'. You are free to bring an attorney to represent you, but the state will not provide one in summary cases.

    Summary offenses do not involve an arrest. You are not fingerprinted, and there is no criminal record.

    Failure to pay a fine rendered for a summary offense can, however, result in a bench warrant and your subsequent arrest.

    Parent

    This sounds very similar (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 09:57:30 AM EST
    to what I went through with my dog killing the neighbors cat, on my property, when I was not at home.  And it involved a magistrate system.

    I hired an attorney, and I did find out on Friday that the Magistrate decided to drop it.  I had originally also been told that I would have to pay court costs, but on Friday they did not ask for court costs.

    I have a difficult neighbor.  She has at least twenty cats, and she also takes in litters of kittens for a local shelter until they are old enough for homes.  She has just recently decided to keep her cats close to home now, for which I am very grateful. They are no longer lounging all over my front yard.  I like most all animals, never complained that I used to have about five cats in my front yard and on my porch that were not mine.

    But when my dog was going to be charged with a crime for killing a cat on his own property I had to begin to capture them and called animal control.  The first time I did this they didn't want to take the cats in though, they said they were tame cats and there is no leash law for cats.  I had to call my husband at work to come and speak with them as well because he is very "persuasive" and I needed a witness to how stupid everything had become.  They took the cats, and they took some more of them in at a later date too.  We asked for copies of the reports of when they had to be taken in as well.  I want to get along with my neighbors, but I'm not a doormat.  Magistrates can be a very different freakish show though.

    Parent

    Both misdemeanor and County ordinances (none / 0) (#177)
    by Ben Masel on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 10:21:41 AM EST
    Disorderly Conduct are on the books, wityh initially Officers', and eventually DA's discretion as to which to use.

    The misdemeanor carries the possibility of jail time, but defendants are entitled to jury trials, so for minor incidents the ordinance is used more often.

    Sounds like this cop opted for the violation.

    Parent

    reply (none / 0) (#117)
    by lostinwisconsin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:48:32 PM EST
    I waited for the police, probably ten minutes. I called the manager over. If I had done something I perceived as 'wrong,' why would I have waited?

    Parent
    Under no circumstances (none / 0) (#123)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:55:07 PM EST
    am I advising you in any way legally.

    Specifically, I am NOT advising you to file suit against anyone.

    As I understand it, you have retained an attorney, listen to your attorney.

    Not to us babbling on a blog.

    This is real life for you.

    This is just a thinking exercise for the rest of us.

    Parent

    thanks and (none / 0) (#126)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:57:50 PM EST
    very well said, BTD.

    Parent
    Weird. (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:32:32 PM EST
    You simply make no sense today.

    BTW (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:39:42 PM EST
    Where's Ben Masel when you need him?

    Leafletting Phish show at Alpine Valley. (none / 0) (#179)
    by Ben Masel on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 10:29:27 AM EST
    Moved 4,500 fliers for the Madison Hempfest in October.

    Parent
    People are crazy (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by mexboy on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 07:07:31 PM EST
    it's just that simple.

    Alert the Media (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by SteveDin on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 09:11:29 AM EST
    Lost in Wisconsin: I'm with you on this one and not with the probably more centered folks who say you should have sucked it up. I think the woman in question should have been cited for making a nuisance call.

    But there's another option: Alert the media. You can see from the interest here that it's a juicy story. Let's see how the woman feels when she's named for a) refusing to budge from a checkout line that's intended to make life easier for all customers and b) for phoning 911 because, aw, you said something that hurt her feelings. I promise, you'll come out better than she will--and better than the police and store manager, too.

    Oh, boy (none / 0) (#167)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 09:31:54 AM EST
    Bet you any amount of money lost's attorney would not think that was a good idea.

    Not clear to me, either, that holding up someone to ridicule in the media who's already demonstrated she's irrational is such a hot idea.

    Parent

    L.I.W. was 100% justified... (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 09:34:26 AM EST
    in making a wise crack...calling 911 in response is a joke.  All kinds of "winners" out there...their sorry lives are there punishment:)  Whaddya gonna do?

    Can't really blame the supermarket clerk for not enforcing the rule...for the pittance a cashier makes you want 'em to play express line cop and confront the person...especially a real winner like our dime-dropper here?  It just ain't worth it...it's not like it's gonna get 'em a raise or anything.

    "Disorderly Conduct".... (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 10:16:02 AM EST
    is just too funny and ironic too...if anything, L.I.W. was just trying to maintain the order of the express check-out system, it was the crazy lady causing "disorder", if anybody.

    J spoke for all of us! But could have (none / 0) (#1)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 12:39:02 PM EST
    been decked if the woman's appearance was as described by J.  But J was exercising J's First Amendment rights.  Not a crime.

    P.S.  A colleague called 911 during an especially hostile deposition.  No arrests.

    On your PS, Wha???!? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 01:18:20 PM EST
    Hostile meaning what? A threat of bodily harm? By whom? The witness?

    I think a call to the presiding judge would have been the thing to do.

    Sanctions get imposed by judges.

    What's 911 going to do?

    Parent

    Hostility was from opposing counsel-- (none / 0) (#22)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 02:59:22 PM EST
    but what else is new?  Poor judgment.  

    Parent
    Call the judge (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:57:37 PM EST
    Not 911.

    Parent
    The Defense? (none / 0) (#24)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 03:02:27 PM EST
    Must have been plaintiff's counsel. I (none / 0) (#30)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 03:10:56 PM EST
    wasn't there.

    Parent
    Hostile meaning words, but including (none / 0) (#31)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 03:12:18 PM EST
    threats of bodily harm, at least that's how I remember it from third-hand info.  The 911 caller is a fairly sturdy man, who was subsequently razzed by everyone.

    Parent
    Maybe the responding officer was (none / 0) (#2)
    by republicratitarian on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 12:41:49 PM EST
    Fat and ugly too?

    more likely (none / 0) (#161)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 09:14:02 AM EST
    a relative

    Parent
    and (none / 0) (#162)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 09:14:22 AM EST
    fat and ugly

    Parent
    Rude or Disorderly: Where's the Line? (none / 0) (#3)
    by lostinwisconsin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 12:55:24 PM EST
    To be fair, she wasn't all that fat or all that ugly. It was the best i could do in the heat of the moment. I was astonished, jaw dropped open when she pulled out her cell and dialed 911.  .  I called the manager over and he said 'we have a problem enforcing that 10 items or less.  I waited for the cop to come.
    Was I stupid?  Probably. Wrong i.e. warrant 911 ? No way.

    Obviously (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 01:14:50 PM EST
    If you had to do it over again . . .

    But I have a question, why hire a lawyer? If I understood the issue correctly, you were facing a $423 fine if you lost.

    You seem to have a pretty good grasp of the issues.

    Maybe a call to the DA to ask if they are serious about this? Tell them you are going to plead not guilty and defend yourself in a trial?

    I can't imagine they are going to expend office resources for this.

    But I do not know what Wisconsin is like so maybe I am all wet in what I am saying.

    Parent

    because it's a crime and it goes on (none / 0) (#56)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:05:58 PM EST
    his criminal record. I highly recommend using a lawyer.

    Parent
    How do you know this? (none / 0) (#73)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:56:55 PM EST
    I'm no expert on Wisconsin law, but I imagine there is some type of deferred prosecution process where the entire thing gets dropped and you just pay the fine.

    If money is no object, then fine, hire a lawyer. But if money IS an object, then I think a phone call may have been the better first step.

    Parent

    Yes. (none / 0) (#102)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:38:01 PM EST
    This is not, not, not legal advice, but it is based on experience here, by a certain family member who got just such treatment from a smart judge.

    However, he was young, with no record.  And so the warning was to keep his record clear and his nose clean until he turned 21, and if he did so, there would be no penalty, fine, etc.  But if he did not do all of the above, the charge would come back to haunt him like a bad meal.  (I believe that was the judge's phrase.:-)

    It worked.  I have been grateful to that judge ever since.

    Btw, the young 'un was prepared for this possibility, prepared to be abjectly apologetic, etc., based on advice from a local lawyer there, who knew the local judge and his ways.  But the advice was free -- as the advice also was not to get all lawyered up in that town, unlike in the big city, unquote.

    Again, this is not advice, just experience -- as again, it can change from town to town to town.

    Parent

    What is this (none / 0) (#108)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:43:15 PM EST
    HYPOTHETICAL $423 ticket business about?

    Parent
    I'm trying to find out more about that (none / 0) (#131)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 06:09:07 PM EST
    with a bit of time with the online court records.  But all I have is a bit of time before getting back to work, and I'm not getting far. . . .

    Parent
    Okay, here's what I'm finding (none / 0) (#134)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 06:16:28 PM EST
    And looking back at the email, i.e., "I'm looking at a $423 ticket," there are different ways to construe that.  

    Could it mean, "I'm looking at a ticket, and I've looked up -- elsewhere -- how high the fine can be for disorderly conduct," but without differentiating as the law does as to types of disorderly conduct?

    That is, the records are turning up far lower fines for disorderly conduct at the level as described here -- that is, just words (rude as they were).

    The $423 fine is turning up for aggravated disorderly conduct (damage to property, even assault, etc.) and for domestic violence-disorderly conduct.

    That's what I've found.  Back to work I go.

    Parent

    reply (none / 0) (#143)
    by lostinwisconsin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 07:10:28 PM EST
    you are right, i was rude.

    but this was a $423 citation.  no scuffle.

    Parent

    The cost of rudeness (none / 0) (#146)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 07:52:32 PM EST
    is incalculable, of course.  So, yes, $423 (not $420 or $425; where do our legislators and their ilk get these numbers?) seems too much, based on the report of no physical contact -- and no rudeness to the police, I presume.  (Never but never be rude to police in Milwaukee, believe me.)

    So, you can address the question that has come up here a couple of times:  Does the ticket specify $423, or does it specify a range with $423 at the high end, or did you find this dollar figure not on the ticket but by some other means, a website, etc.?

    Parent

    range (none / 0) (#147)
    by lostinwisconsin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 07:59:13 PM EST
    not a range, on the ticket. specific.

    Parent
    silly question time (none / 0) (#75)
    by nyjets on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:57:41 PM EST
    What level is the charge.
    Is it a violation, misdemeanor or felony.
    If it is only a violation, is it worth fighting the charge?


    Parent
    Misdemeanor (none / 0) (#119)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:51:29 PM EST
    in Wisconsin -- this sort of disorderly conduct charge.  There are two types.  If it was a domestic violence/disorderly conduct call, the jail time, fines, etc., are more severe.

    Still, this is a state where court records are public records online, and it is common for employers, landlords, etc., to check the records.

    But the online records often are not detailed, so that they can be misconstrued.  A kid's friend could not get a landlord to rent to her, and I finally found out from one that it was because she had a hit-and-run on her record.

    The kid had hit a garbage can, when the kid was 16.

    Parent

    yes it's worth fighting (none / 0) (#124)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:55:45 PM EST
    because even a petty offense leaves a criminal record in most places.

    Parent
    Agreed, it certainly is worth fighting (none / 0) (#129)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 06:06:25 PM EST
    but I am not, not, not weighing in on whether to hire a lawyer.  Not enough is known here.

    Parent
    even a violation (none / 0) (#140)
    by nyjets on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 06:50:27 PM EST
    Is that true for even a violation?
    (And I agree that if this charge will be a misdomeaner, it is proable worth fighting)

    Parent
    It's worth fighting (none / 0) (#212)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 11:01:43 AM EST
    because the charge is stupid and ridiculous. The cop who issued the citation, even more so. I'd go to court just for the opportunity to question the cop on the record and make him look like the fool he is. I enjoyed doing the same thing to a cop in Haltom City, Texas. I had every opportunity to have a bogus ticket dismissed. I chose not to just to have the opportunity to hand the cop a copy of the law I had supposedly broken and have him read it aloud. I won and got my satisfaction.

    Parent
    Not a crime. (none / 0) (#180)
    by Ben Masel on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 10:33:03 AM EST
    If there's only a fine, it was charged as Municipal or County Ordinance.

    Parent
    Not a crime, but... (none / 0) (#188)
    by Jack E Lope on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 12:40:49 PM EST
    ...what sort of public record is there, and how accessible is it, and for how long?

    There is a huge difference between a spotless record and a record with a single spot.  One's next encounter with an officer may be colored by the information on one's record.  That single seemingly-minor item could be the tipping point in an employer's decision, a lender's decision, a landlord's decision, a judge's decision, et cetera.  

    Parent

    To be really fair, your opening (none / 0) (#15)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 01:39:22 PM EST
    line was one that would provoke most people.

    What if she had responded that she can't read because she's legally blind from glaucoma? Would you have gone on to look for bigger insults?

    The exchange probably didn't deserve the 9-1-1 call, but since you didn't open with a civil request for her to honor the express line limits maybe she felt you were more likely to escalate it to physical.

    BTW - did she have 60 items really? Or, 15?

    Next time you encounter a violator of the grocery store express line, try taking a deep breath and putting it in perspective, if that doesn't work, ask if you might go ahead of them since you only have a few items. That's what people used to do before the express lane days...I rarely saw anyone refuse a polite request.


    Parent

    15 or 60 (none / 0) (#21)
    by lostinwisconsin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 02:34:22 PM EST
    perhaps 55 items. provoking or not, does this warrant a 911 call?


    Parent
    I wish the guy my daughter gave the (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 03:02:10 PM EST
    finger to in a parking lot had called 911.  He didn't.  He chased my car with his huge p/u truck.  Very frightening.

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#81)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:16:42 PM EST
    Rage is not restricted to the roads, and people are reacting in OTT ways to things far too often.

    The stores will find solutions to the express line violations when it becomes a problem for them. Several solutions:

    1. Request loudly that another line be opened to handle the surge at checkout

    2. Stop shopping there and make sure management knows why

    3. Learn patience

    I've seen more instances of people with under 10 items destroy the element of "express" by not having enough cash and having to wait for their kid to run to the car to get more money from dad, have a credit card declined, decide they need to start removing items one by one, etc. BUT, they followed the 10 item rule. From now on I'll have to ask myself, "what would J do"?


    Parent
    I also was thinking about tensions (none / 0) (#87)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:26:50 PM EST
    these days here in Wisconsin, truly in dismal economic straits.  It's the topic of conversation from many of us seeing it in our emails from and encounters with very stressed folks, and it is causing warnings to teachers, employers, etc., to be very careful about pushing people past the edge.

    Some of the towns here are actually exceeding their unemployment rates in the 1930s, owing to closings of GM plants and other factories -- towns where half of the workers work for one company, and the other half rely on those workers' paychecks at their stores, such as grocery stores.

    Stressed as are we all, we may not have it as bad as the next person in line -- or the person before us in line.  And heck, who doesn't notice such a hefty load of groceries ahead of them in line, any line, not just the express line?  Am I the only who always scouts out all the lines?

    Parent

    I always scout unless (none / 0) (#96)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:34:53 PM EST
    the store has self-checkout. Shop at Costco enough and patience at checkout is mandatory to learn.

    I have a hard time imagining the citation if other people in the store didn't attest to the disturbance part.

    Parent

    Ahem! (none / 0) (#39)
    by hairspray on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 03:35:44 PM EST
    I have!

    Parent
    OMG! I usually volunteer. (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:07:27 PM EST
    Here in Wisconsin, I can only hope (none / 0) (#38)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 03:34:35 PM EST
    that you're somewhere else in Wisconsin -- as if ever you tried that on me, you would find yourself at a disadvantage when it comes to ripostes.

    After all, there may be ugly here, but there is no "fat" here.  You ought to know by now that's just what we -- in the state of deep-fried food on a stick -- call one healthy woman dere, ain'a hey.

    Of course, I do agree that such people in the grocery stores are obnoxious.  But so are people who cannot figure out what is correct to do about it.


    Parent

    the issue is not whether you could have (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:14:31 PM EST
    come back with a more clever retort but whether this is a proper, fair or appropriate use of 911 and our criminal justice system.

    Parent
    Ah. I was answering the question (none / 0) (#82)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:20:45 PM EST
    as to whether it was rude.  

    It was.

    Not that I understand why something must be either rude or disorderly, and not both, but I'll give the other a try.

    As for whether it was an appropriate use of 911, not in my town.  It well could get a hefty ticket here for misusing 911.  Then again, that would require the cops showing up within an hour for this call, amid all the major calls they get here.  That's a clue to me that this well may be small-town stuff.

    And I am always amazed by stories of the 911 calls in some towns around here -- and that it doesn't seem to bother local police.  Of course, the number of 911 calls is a stat always cited to support their demands to town and village boards for budget increases, so -- there 'tis.  

    There's big-city Wisconsin, and then, there's Wisconsin.  Also, to my knowledge, Piggly Wiggly is only in small-town Wisconsin.

    And all I know from experiences in small-town Wisconsin is to behave and get out of town fast.  The woman you call fat and ugly could be the village board chair.  Or the police chief's wife.  Or the police chief.

    Parent

    Actually, two in Milwaukee (none / 0) (#210)
    by huzzlewhat on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 11:53:18 AM EST
    One's on 54th, and they just opened one on Capitol. :-)

    Parent
    I'm thinking a day picking up trash (none / 0) (#40)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 03:35:54 PM EST
    on the side of the freeway in lieu of fine.  

    Parent
    What is the phrase? (none / 0) (#138)
    by christinep on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 06:47:41 PM EST
    To lostinwisconsin: "Chill out" "lighten up." My goodness...there are so many things in life. Where is the perspective? Is this all about number one--two number ones, as it were? If someone gets this upset over minor infractions at a counter, what the heck does one do in the intensive care unit or when there is a dissolution of marriage or when there is a question about life's purpose? Frankly, I hope that this is all a joke; because, if it isn't, there is a joke in society. Where's the line? Well...figure it out.

    Parent
    What is the world coming to? (none / 0) (#150)
    by Lora on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 09:46:17 PM EST
    Step out of line, the man come and take you away...

    Rights don't seem to exist much any more.

    OTOH at least you weren't the one calling 911 because the lady in question had smacked you upside the head or in other parts for calling her fat and ugly!

    There used to be a public service commercial about driving defensively that ended like this:

    "That driver was right.  Dead right."

    The message being that it's better sometimes NOT to insist on your rights.

    Sometimes it's best to take the practical over the principle.  Win more flies with honey, etc etc.

    That said, I do NOT think that a single insult should equal "disorderly."  But more and more, this country wants good little automatons. And people, including cops, seem so afraid that a strong emotion or strong words will suddenly lead to berserk, terroristic behavior, and therefore will allow all sorts of rights to be trampled on to quell the expression of such troubling behavior.

    Parent

    Coming in late, and NOT GIVING LEGAL (none / 0) (#152)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 10:20:52 PM EST
    ADVICE, but there is an important aspect that has been overlooked so far, it seems to me.  This has now turned into a criminal case.  No matter how informal the in-court procedure is in Wisconsin for this sort of thing, the process in front of the judge is a kind of criminal trial. The state has the burden of proof.  THE COP DID NOT WITNESS THE OFFENSE OCCUR; his knowledge of it is hearsay and probably not admissible in court. I think the prosecutor or the cop (if it works in WI as it does in PA for minor offenses) has to subpoena the lady who called 911. Otherwise, there is no evidence against J/Lost.  (Unless J/Lost already made a statement to the cop at the scene that admitted a crime -- remember folks, it is YOUR RIGHT to REMAIN SILENT, and this is why -- and even then, the uncorroborated statement of the accused may not be enough to prove the crime [this is called the "corpus delicti" rule, for crim law nerds].)  FOLLOW YOUR LAWYER'S ADVICE, J/Lost.  But theoretically, if the cop shows up and 911-Lady doesn't, there is insufficient evidence against you, and you never have to (and therefore shouldn't) volunteer to tell your side of the story in court.  That would/should only happen after the state proves a prima facie case against you, with non-hearsay evidence.  Of course, I agree with many others who have commented that if the facts are as you say -- and you did not, for example, act toward 911-Lady in a way that she reasonably perceived as threatening -- then the charges may very well be declined by the DA (or cop, if it's his call, as it would be in PA) or dismissed by the judge.  

    Parent
    Focusing on the actions of the person, and not (none / 0) (#4)
    by jawbone on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 12:57:44 PM EST
    appearance would have kept the situation from escalating perhaps, imho.  But I would simply not try to achieve points by using personal insults.

    Then, again, had she continued to stay in the 10 items or less line, I might have questioned her ability to understand the unspoken rules of society. But I don't think she could have used that as an excuse to callo 911. Heh.

    people that abuse that line (none / 0) (#5)
    by pitachips on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 01:00:27 PM EST
    should be tased.

    ok maybe not a fully powered taser. maybe just a slight jolt :)

    1 more reason (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by The Addams Family on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:46:06 PM EST
    to regret the invention of the taser: all the people who like to declare that others "should be tased" for whatever reason

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 01:11:49 PM EST
    Sorry, how stupid can life be? Apparently this stupid.

    Heartless!! (none / 0) (#8)
    by observed on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 01:12:49 PM EST
    Maybe I was not clear (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 01:16:42 PM EST
    But my point was did no one have anything better to do on this? The cop, the complainer, the DA.

    Also, if we want to get REALLY litigious, how about a lawsuit against the supermarket for not enforcing the 10 items or less policy?

    I mean, if we all have time and energy to waste, why the hell not?

    Parent

    File a suit (none / 0) (#14)
    by lostinwisconsin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 01:38:45 PM EST
    I've actually thought about filing suit against the chain for not enforcing the rule and essentially allowing this to happen.

    Brilliant (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 01:52:16 PM EST
    You have a personal encounter that finds you on the receiving end of karma and you will shut down the express lines across the country to show everyone who's boss.

    Find a store near you with self-checkout. Those stations don't have enough room in bagging to allow more than 10-15 items per customer. If someone tries, there are usually 4-8 registers to keep you from focusing on just one person.

    Parent

    And then you would get a judge (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 03:45:45 PM EST
    among the many here who would tack on nuisance fees for filling up the court calendar as well as paying the other side's fees when you lose.

    And keep in mind that a store chain has lawyers, a lot of lawyers, already paid and just champing at the chance to exercise the time-honored act of perpetuating their positions by taking their own darn time on this, dragging you and your lawyer into depositions and into court for delays -- all increasing your fees while they just get to show that they are needed in their jobs.  (Believe me on this; I work for such an institution with in-house counsel and have seen even the most justified of cases collapse against the staying power of self-perpetuation.)

    Oh, and you would lose, I'm betting.  Store policies are not statutory laws, for pity's sake.  Any institution can bend its policies as needed -- and for the most part, we all can be glad that they do, as many policies are @##$!~!.

    Parent

    That's pretty inaccurate I think (none / 0) (#72)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:52:57 PM EST
    But I am not from Wisconsin.

    In my experience your description is not accurate at all.

    Parent

    The state (not Wisconsin) institutions (none / 0) (#77)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:01:10 PM EST
    of "higher learning" I used to represent did not take this approach.  Pretty reasonable, IMO.  

    Parent
    Really? It's the way that a lot of suits (none / 0) (#92)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:31:20 PM EST
    and such get discouraged here, by lawyers.  I've been told exactly this, myself, by lawyers here.  For decades now; I well remember my parents being told that when they wanted to act on medical malpractice in my treatment as a child.  The lawyers in my own family have said this since. . .

    But then, we have some weird judges.

    And some very powerful institutions.

    Parent

    Eisconsin is different than (none / 0) (#98)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:35:38 PM EST
    other jurisdictions then.

    Parent
    Huh. Which part? (none / 0) (#115)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:48:00 PM EST
    Weird judges?  Wise lawyers?  Powerful institutions?

    Parent
    It's not easy (none / 0) (#118)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:50:20 PM EST
    to discourage suits by sanctions unless the caes are really frivolous.

    There are no "loser pays" jurisdictions that I know of.

    Parent

    There is a "loser pays" provision (none / 0) (#128)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 06:03:50 PM EST
    in the 42 U.S.C. section 1983 series, but I never persuaded a trial judge to make the loser plaintiff pay!

    Parent
    Ah, I think I see the distinction (none / 0) (#141)
    by Cream City on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 06:51:48 PM EST
    and think that what I am recalling as having happened here is paying of court costs.

    Parent
    How are they to enforce it? (none / 0) (#43)
    by BrassTacks on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 03:43:39 PM EST
    I've seen cashiers tell people that they are in an express line when they begin to empty their carts of 40+ items.  Some shrug and continue.  I heard one woman say, ''yeah, I know it's express, but I'm in a hurry''.  What can the cashier do, other than cause a scene and worry that the customer will get angry, cause a bigger scene, etc?  For business, it's best to get the over sized order through the line asap.  

    Parent
    Oh no (none / 0) (#145)
    by me only on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 07:47:07 PM EST
    It is best to take forever.  To run out of bags, to have to turn money in and to change money, to double scan and take forever.  I never had a person do what lost did, but the normal offender gets 20 long looks and feels like an idiot.

    The one person who complained got "The express lane is for people who follow the rules."

    Parent

    Overheard (none / 0) (#149)
    by Lora on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 09:18:43 PM EST
    I have heard a cashier I know say that he got written up for asking a person in the express line with way more groceries to go to another line.

    Parent
    Good Point (none / 0) (#151)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 09:47:33 PM EST
    The fat customer who buys 60 items is going to be backed up by the store management/owner waaaaay before the customer who buys less than 10 items.

    Parent
    Lost in Wisconsin (none / 0) (#59)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:11:10 PM EST
    First,please listen only to your lawyer as to any legal aspects of the case and keep in mind TalkLeft does not give legal advice.

    You were smart to get a lawyer.

    The moral/social issue is another matter and everyone can freely opine on that.

    Parent

    I agree not to takelegal advice (none / 0) (#71)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:51:46 PM EST
    from a blog.

    But I strongly disagree with the "get a lawyer" advice if the facts are as stated in the post.

    No lawyer is going to cost less than $423.

    So I disagree with Jeralyn's statement that your were smart to get a lawyer. I think you weren't, based on the facts presented.

    It is a matter of simple mathematics.

    Then again, if money is no object, I suggest filing a civil  suit against everyone.

    That will go a long way towards making this go away.

    Parent

    Hmmmm. Prosecuting witness (none / 0) (#76)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:58:54 PM EST
    (now a defendant in a civil suit) says--oh, just drop it.  But--prosecuting agency may disagree.  Shouldn't file it to begin with though. Could also sue the county and the officer I suppose.  Full employment for lawyers.

    Parent
    As I said (none / 0) (#78)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:04:19 PM EST
    if money is no object, then there seems to be a prima facie Section 1983 action for violation of First Amendment rights.

    Give me a little time to review Wisconsin law, and I can come up with some causes of action against the store and the complaining witness.

    Now all of this would strikes me as ridiculous. I would not take any of these cases - it would be unconscionable imo because the cost and trouble would not be worth an hour of anyone's time.

    Maybe I am just ignorant, but I can't think that a DA's office would want to spend a minute on this nonsense. It might get resolved with a phone call.

    Parent

    Here's what I think will happen. (none / 0) (#84)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:24:34 PM EST
    Retained attorney will make an appointment with prosecuting agency, which will either dismiss the case if already issued, or not issue it.  Cost to defendant:  attorney's fees.  Expensive!  Alternative would have been to show up for court date w/o attorney, probably get public defender (if misdemeanor) appointed (unless defendant has adequate resources and doesn't qualify). at that appearance date defendant may find out DA's office didn't issue case.  Or appointed attorney will meet w/prosecutor and get case dismissed as nonsense. Cost to defendant:  zero.  

    Parent
    No chance of just calling the DA on this? (none / 0) (#85)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:25:35 PM EST
    I am sceptical the call would (none / 0) (#101)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:37:44 PM EST
    make it through to an attorney if the caller is pro per and first court date has come up yet.

    Parent
    Then J is (none / 0) (#106)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:41:39 PM EST
    HYPOTHETICALLY, probably right and an attorney is needed.

    That stinks BTW.

    Parent

    What if he isn't telling the whole (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:44:31 PM EST
    truth and the citation was written because the clerk, manager, and other shoppers told what they witnessed?

    Parent
    Exactly. Hypothetically, we don't (none / 0) (#113)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:47:32 PM EST
    have all the facts in the hypo.

    Parent
    reply (none / 0) (#127)
    by lostinwisconsin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 06:00:29 PM EST
    he wrote the citation without talking to the manager, clerk, others in store. it's anybody's guess what she told the cop.

    Parent
    You're probably lucky... (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by desertswine on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 06:29:13 PM EST
    that you didn't get tazed.

    Parent
    I would add that (none / 0) (#83)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:22:45 PM EST
    it may be that hiring a lawyer is the only way to go. But if money is a concern, I'm not sure that exploring some other options first can be the wrong way to go.

    Money is tight everywhere and I think looking for a way to save some is not inherently bad.

    Parent

    please don't recommend filing (none / 0) (#86)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:26:08 PM EST
    lawsuits. TalkLeft cannot give legal advice and you are a lawyer. See our sidebar:

    Nothing on this site should be construed as legal advice. TalkLeft does not give legal advice.

    As for getting a lawyer, you can't put a pricetag on avoiding having a criminal record. It's not about the fine. If a lawyer could get it dismissed (and again, I say if without opining), it would be well worth it whatever the cost.

    Parent

    I was being facetious obviously (none / 0) (#97)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:35:03 PM EST
    Frankly, I think this entire discussion should have been kept hypothetical.

    As for the benefits of a lawyer, of course they are important. In theory, they could help you fight traffic tickets.

    But the cost/benefit is not always clear on that.

    I think the murkiness of the facts here are such that we can't really know what makes sense here, even as a hypothetical.

    Perhaps it comes from my having to present cost/benefit analysis to clients on commercial dispute when deciding how to proceed (litigation/settlements, etc.), and understanding how hard the economy is right now, as a hypothetical matter, I think that exploring ways to maybe save money are not inappropriate.

    OF course if you are charged with a serious offense, you can't save money.

    I just am not sure, HYPOTHETICALLY, what is going on here.

    For example, HYPOTHETICALLY, what is a $423 ticket" for disorderly conduct? What does that ticket say?

    IS the entire story, HYPOTHETICALLY, that you pay $423 and there is no record? I need more info on the hypothetical.

    Parent

    I'd do initial appearance pro se, (none / 0) (#182)
    by Ben Masel on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 10:41:31 AM EST
    find out if the Prosecution really going to go ahead, and only then retain counsel.

    Parent
    But you did select the line (none / 0) (#200)
    by Untold Story on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 06:43:57 PM EST
    knowing someone was ahead of you with 55 items - so what's the problem?

    Parent
    Ridiculous (none / 0) (#17)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 01:52:50 PM EST
    But not an uncommon problem with disorderly conduct statutes which, as in Wisconsin, tend to be very vague.  The police are given very broad discretion in determining what constitutes "disorderly" conduct, and will often cite one or both parties to attempt to diffuse a confrontation (even a non-violent one), or even a situation they believe will turn in to a confrontation after they leave.

    I'd take BTD's suggestion and call the prosecutor's office before hiring an attorney - although it sounds like it may be too late for that.  It's hard to believe they would waste resources on this kind of thing.

    As I recall, Professor Gates was (none / 0) (#27)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 03:08:20 PM EST
    arrested for disorderly conduct under Massachusett's law.  But the prosecutor's office declined to prosecute and Professor Gates got to have a beer on the WH lawn!

    Parent
    Looks like they're vague in Illinois (none / 0) (#205)
    by Cream City on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 12:24:04 AM EST
    too -- look at the story just a few days ago from a burb near the border there, with the headline asking whether rudeness is disorderly conduct.

    The answer in Illinois?  Yes.  Not free speech.  (If for a lesser fine -- and headlines that I would bet this business does not need.)

    Parent

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 07:43:43 AM EST
    Clearly the question was obnoxious, rude, etc., but IMO also free speech.  I'm guessing the trial court relies on the fact that very, very few people would bother to appeal a $75 summons, but it would be nice if the ACLU would help him out ...

    Parent
    summons (none / 0) (#211)
    by lostinwisconsin on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 04:04:02 PM EST
    $423 dollar summons

    Parent
    I was talking about ... (none / 0) (#213)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 09:05:56 AM EST
    ... the case in Illinois.

    Parent
    Wonder if the Tea Party people will (none / 0) (#28)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 03:08:54 PM EST
    take a stance on this.  Or the Pres.

    you are stuck! (none / 0) (#32)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 03:14:10 PM EST
    J,

    while I commisserate with you on the woman having had some bad behavior to cheat the line,

    it still doesn't work to call someone in public fat and ugly--whether or not they are fat and ugly, whether or not they are in the wrong line.

    I think you have lost; it is disorderly conduct on your part to make a very large insult to someone who might react badly, and who, in more violent times, might have become more aggressive.

    You might get the judge or the prosecutor to do a deferred prosecution, or to reduce the fine, or let you make payments, or whatever.  Including the willingness to make an apology might help . . .

    Wow (5.00 / 5) (#64)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:38:26 PM EST
    It's disorderly conduct to say something non-threatening, just insulting, to someone else who might become disorderly?

    That's stretching it quite a bit, seems to me.

    Parent

    My question is (none / 0) (#165)
    by Untold Story on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 09:25:13 AM EST
    why did 911 respond?  

    What part of this situation constitutes an emergency?

    When one hears recorded 911 calls it seems the 911 operator asks everything down to the color nail polish someone might be wearing.

    Parent

    Which is why I think the reporting party (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 10:39:33 AM EST
    embellished or there is more to this than we have been told so far.

    Parent
    Im tellin ya (none / 0) (#183)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 10:55:30 AM EST
    having relatives in law enforcement, I would bet she was either related to law enforcement or knew them very well.

    Parent
    Yup (none / 0) (#186)
    by nycstray on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 11:39:07 AM EST
    I called 911 once because a man was passed out on the sidewalk in a position that could have happened from a fall. was worried about head injury.  they asked me all kinds of questions and then phoned back my number to verify the call/legitimacy.

    Parent
    Hmmm (none / 0) (#70)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:48:50 PM EST
    Is this supposed to be legal analysis?

    I wonder. In any event, this was not Jeralyn as a cursory reading of the post makes clear.

    This was from an e-mail she received.

    Parent

    I should have used another first initial (none / 0) (#88)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:27:38 PM EST
    to make that clearer....

    Parent
    Thread cleaned (none / 0) (#62)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:21:47 PM EST
    of insults between commenters and comments about tables at coffee houses. Please stay on topic, and keep unrelated comments on open threads.

    For coffee houses and hogging computer users, there's a thread here.

    Am I the only one (none / 0) (#63)
    by Jen M on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:25:40 PM EST
    who has been in a grocery store with 20 items or more and been pointed to the express lane by an employee directing traffic?

    I try to object but they usually say 'its ok'

    No, I have, too (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:41:50 PM EST
    But far more often, I've found myself behind someone who nominated themselves to get in the express line with 20 or more items.  The ones I love are the people with half a dozen each of 10 items who consider themselves perfectly within the rules.

    Parent
    It's very annoying (none / 0) (#169)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 09:41:30 AM EST
    And for people with small children in tow dropping in for a gallon of milk at the end of a long day........bleh

    Parent
    Not the type... (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 09:58:25 AM EST
    to let a one item person cut the line either...which I allow religously when I've got a full cart...it's what seperates us from the animals:)

    Parent
    Ditto (none / 0) (#172)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 10:02:59 AM EST
    If I have a basket full and someone behind me has one item, I offer my spot.  Common sense and common courtesy, but many many people could care less about anyone but themselves.

    Parent
    And when called out on it... (none / 0) (#174)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 10:09:46 AM EST
    dial 911!

    I swear some people should have the number blocked to prevent such abuse of the "emergency" system....never mind a prosecution, just block it.  And if a real emergency ever arises, they can remember what happened to the boy who cried wolf.

    Parent

    Thank you, I do too (none / 0) (#189)
    by Untold Story on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 12:58:07 PM EST
    Not worth getting annoyed over - just try to think of some reason they might do what they do, sickness, mental illness, finance problems, someone they love dying  - and it sets one in a different mood entirely.

    Never really blow my car horn - but one day a car crossed two lanes on an avenue, blocking both lanes.  We waited (I was about third car in one lane) and waited, thinking the car had problems.  Then it moved slightly to further cut off the left lane as someone did go around it.

    People started blowing their horns - and I did as well.

    A young, baby-faced, perhaps Marine, got out of the car and walked toward us.  I did notice something purple.  At about the same time motor police arrived with lights, and then the hearse and cars followed from a side street.  This car was blocking us so they could enter.

    Will never ever blow my car horn again.  There may be reasons we don't know or understand why some people act the way they do.  We can stand and wait and be thankful we don't fall into that category.

    Parent

    Yes, and it (none / 0) (#122)
    by ding7777 on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:54:54 PM EST
    happens frequently.  

    With scanners and baggers, the time difference between 20 vs 50 items is really not that great.

    Parent

    Depends entirely (none / 0) (#166)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 09:26:00 AM EST
    on the skill of the cashier and the availability of a bagger.  Sometimes the express line whizzes through.  More often, the people waiting line say sarcastic things to each other like, "Got whiplash yet?"

    Parent
    Indeed (none / 0) (#201)
    by Untold Story on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 08:48:15 PM EST
    If there had been three people with five items each it would have taken the same time as the customer with 55!

    So, if you choose (and, it is one's own choice) to get in line after someone with 55 items, whether it be in a 10, 20 or 100 item line, then it is a decision made by ourselves.

    To expect to be able to blow that customer out of one's way by trying to intimidate them as to where they are supposed to be is nothing more than being a bully.

    Then to assume they have violated some rule or regulation without any knowledged whatsoever and verbally attack them on that assumption is wrong.

    I would also 'assume' that perhaps some banging of the cart, the counter, or, perhaps even the hitting (even accidentally) of candy or whatever off a shelf may well have contributed to 911 actually responding to the call while the sale person or manager did not intervene.

    Just my opinion.  Anger and impatience brings problems to everyone's life and is clearly a negative not to ever engage in.

    Parent

    if J (none / 0) (#66)
    by The Addams Family on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:43:16 PM EST
    spoke that way to another person - no matter how obnoxious that person's behavior - then it seems to me that J was looking for a fight, & got one

    that said, the 911 call was frivolous & the caller, not J, should have received the citation

    J has a 1st Amendment right to say what he did even tho his 2 remarks were evidently ill advised

    But (none / 0) (#68)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 04:46:25 PM EST
    Loading up 60 items in the 10 items line is looking to make friends?  

    sheesh

    Parent

    obviously not (none / 0) (#153)
    by The Addams Family on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 10:34:36 PM EST
    & if i saw that someone had done that i would probably spare my blood pressure & get in another line - i do not excuse or condone the actions of this @$$hole - but what can you really say to such a person - even to engage w/them is to ask for a fight - just comes w/@$$hole territory

    Parent
    Maybe (none / 0) (#154)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 11:06:44 PM EST
    Unless the other lines all had 10 people all with full shopping carts...  then a well placed snide remark might come out of the most saintly of lips..

    Parent
    with predictable effects n/t (none / 0) (#158)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 02:43:07 AM EST
    Calling 911? (none / 0) (#159)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 02:53:48 AM EST
    You must be joking.

    Parent
    come on squeaky (none / 0) (#192)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 01:23:48 PM EST
    you are stuck on contrary today

    well that was yesterday - hope today is bright & cheerful for you

    Parent

    By the way, for those (none / 0) (#110)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:45:19 PM EST
    looking for free legal advice, you can submit a question on any topic here. For the past 12 years, every week I have picked one to answer on criminal law. They now appear on Thursdays. Here's the archive of the past year's questions I've answered.

    (Note: I don't get paid by the number of questions asked or number of clicks or visitors, this is not intended as an ad. )

    You should do a post on that (none / 0) (#114)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 05:47:33 PM EST
    Thanks for the reminder . . . (none / 0) (#144)
    by nycstray on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 07:29:54 PM EST
    I need to add the local precinct to my cell phone here :) I needed cops once while in a park in NYC, and did not want to call 911. It was urgent, but NOT 911 urgent. I called 311 and they patched me through (after making sure I was right and it wasn't 911 urgent). I really think there needs to be some PSA's on when to use 911 and when to call the cops, and to add the cops to your cell so 911 doesn't become a knee jerk reaction.

    Me thinks shopper should also get a violation. Her complaint should not have gone past store manager. But, perhaps because she knew she was wrong . . .

    My general rule with the public at large, be grateful if they have manners {grin} and be prepared to be patient . . . .

    While there is no one who has not (none / 0) (#184)
    by Anne on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 11:20:03 AM EST
    suffered the annoyance and irritation at being in line behind someone who sees the "15 Items or Less" sign as merely a suggestion, the lesson here is, I think, that how we react and respond to such a situation can engender unintended and unpleasant consequences - for us.

    How different would this have turned out if, instead of a belligerent "Can't you read?" J had said, "excuse me, I don't know if you realize it - because it's happened to me, too - but this is supposed to be an express line; I only have three items - would you mind terribly if I went ahead of you?"  I mean, who knows?  The response could easily have been "Yeah, I know, and yes, I mind, so just deal with it" - OR - it could have been, "Oh, I'm sorry - yes, please go ahead."

    I have been in a line for regular orders, and had a store asst manager direct me to an express line that was empty - and I've made a point to keep an eye behind me, and say to someone who got in line behind me, after I had my items on the belt, "I know this is an express line, but the manager sent me here when it was empty, so my apologies for holding you up."

    And, seriously, in this day and age, why would anyone risk provoking someone whose reaction we have no way of anticipating will be rational?  

    Was the lady right to do what she did?  No, but the approach to righting that wrong wasn't right, either.  Should the woman have called 911?  Maybe not - but maybe she thought that anyone who would be so belligerent, and follow that up with insults, wasn't rational, and she didn't feel safe.  Maybe her reaction was out of fear (what if this guy comes after me in the parking lot?  Or follows me home?) - you just don't know.

    We all make choices about how to deal with people, but we don't control what happens next.


    Parent

    Exactly (none / 0) (#197)
    by Slado on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 02:19:42 PM EST
    Kill them with kindness.

    If the point is to make someone feel foolish for incorrect actions then killing them with kindness always works better then a frontal assault or rude comment.

    Once you cross that line you've entered into an emotional danger zone where reason is out the window.

    Making someone realize the error of their ways while appearing to be asking an basic question is a skill and something we should all try to teach our children.

    It should also be noted that this is not the simplest thing to pull off so if you can't do it without sounding condescending then you should just keep your mouth shut and wait the extra two minuets that it will take.  

    Parent

    this is one freakin hilarious thread (none / 0) (#163)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 09:15:24 AM EST
    its wonderful how predictable people are.

    wonderful in a completely sad and ridiculous way

     

    Yeah...unfortunately (none / 0) (#178)
    by DancingOpossum on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 10:26:47 AM EST
    ...supermarkets cannot actually "enforce" the express line limits, they just rely on other peoples' honesty and courtesy. But I've been told by several cashiers and store managers that they really can't do anything about it if someone breaks the rule. It's not as if it's state law or anything. As an example, my supermarket has special lanes "for expectant women or families with toddlers." T

    hese annoy me for a whole host of reasons, but the point here is that the rule can't really be legally enforced; they're a store courtesty, not the law, and if a non-pregnant woman or a family without kids parks there, there really isn't anything they can do. But if a non-disabled person parks in a disabled spot--that's breaking the law and they can and will enforce it, and the person doing so will face hefty fines.

    But that's state law, it's not "store policy."

    This was really a lose-lose situation except for the jerk who dialed 911, who seems to be getting everything she wanted.


    Here's one way (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by RonK Seattle on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    Ring up 10 items, bag the 10 items, announce the total, request payment, and invite the customer to return to the end of the line with her remaining 50 items.

    Parent
    you all have failed to consider (none / 0) (#191)
    by cpinva on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 01:20:23 PM EST
    the possibility of further, injurious litigation, on the "lady's" part. to whit, expect a civil suit, for damages: "pain and mental anguish"

    should you fail to pursue all legal remedies, and have this citation quashed, or tossed. continued legal troubles await you, trust me on this.

    take the harsh road: aggressively pursue this issue in court, dig up everything negative, about both the lady in question, and the idiot responding officer. alert the media (personally, i love talking with reporters, they're so..............eager), name names. if possible, include the idiot store manager, as well as contacting the the hq (big corps hate negative publicity).

    in short, make yourself the biggest pain in the ass that part of WI, and those involved, have or ever will see. if you are found guilty, make sure the idiot judge's name is exposed for all the world to see, especially his law school classmates. give them a good laugh at his expense.

    file a civil suit yourself (heck, a couple of them), against both the woman, and the locality, for violating your constitutional freedom of speech. make sure you sue the cop, police force, city, prosecutor and judge individually. none of them are entitled to protection, for knowingly violating the law. make it hurt personally.

    consider contacting the WI ACLU, since this is a free speech issue.

    the big thing is, make it as painful, for all parties concerned, as you possibly can, both publicly and privately. be sure to name names, in public, to the media. embarrass the hell out of them.

    it's the only way to be sure.

    The American Way. (none / 0) (#193)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 01:30:49 PM EST
    LOL... (none / 0) (#194)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 01:35:21 PM EST
    that's what I was thinking...and its not a pretty way.

    Might be easier just to transfer all your worldly wealth into somebody elses name...that sounds like alotta work.

    Parent

    sadly true. (none / 0) (#202)
    by cpinva on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 10:38:47 PM EST
    but, we live in litigious times, aided and abetted by poorly trained police, DA's seeking higher office, judges who just want to quickly clear their dockets, insurance company ceo's looking for bigger bonuses, politicians in thrall to big corporate bucks, etc.

    justice, like health care, is a bought and sold commodity. the winner is the one who can make the other guy pay more. sue till it hurts!

    Parent

    It sounds as if it fits WI law, (none / 0) (#195)
    by Jack E Lope on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 01:37:38 PM EST
    if my non-attorney brain interprets this WI attorney website properly.  

    Although this bit refers specifically to electronic communications, I can't imagine that the same message delivered in person and in front of other people would be any less of an offense:

    If the intent was to do something ... such as to harass, annoy or offend another person, then the sending of a message via email or any other communication system is a Class B forfeiture.

    Browsing a couple of police blotters, I find Disorderly Conduct is very commonly cited, and any heated words seem to be enough to cite.

    Yep. The range of behaviors (none / 0) (#199)
    by Cream City on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 03:21:01 PM EST
    that I have heard charged here as disorderly conduct is huge.  It's quite the catch-all.

    And heated words are not "Midwestern nice," the code of behavior in many small to midsize towns.  I always have to remember that when heading out of the city, as in a trip "up North" recently.  My big-city ways will not go over well there. . . .

    Parent

    which causes me to believe (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by cpinva on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 10:43:25 PM EST
    It's quite the catch-all.

    that the statute itself can't withstand judicial scrutiny, as it clearly makes constitutionally protected speech a violation of law, based solely on some police officer's discretion.

    last time i checked, rude speech is as protected as any political speech is. hurt feelings don't normally qualify as a criminal offense.

    Parent

    Yes, one would hope. (none / 0) (#204)
    by Cream City on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 12:15:52 AM EST
    Of course (none / 0) (#207)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 08:09:00 AM EST
    We only have one side of the story here and don't know what was really said or how it was said.  If the rude woman with 60 items felt initimidated or threatened by what the guy said (and we don't know how she felt - maybe she's just a jerk), then no, he DOESN'T have a First Amendment right here.

    I'd love to know the whole story.

    Parent

    That explains the behavior of my (none / 0) (#208)
    by Jack E Lope on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 08:10:24 AM EST
    Midwestern relatives - never direct in their often-judgemental comments, often passive-agressive.

    It's weird to think that "PC" speech (in the sense that we must not say anything that might offend) is firmly rooted in Middle America.

    Parent

    Oh, yes. There are interesting essays (none / 0) (#209)
    by Cream City on Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 11:00:55 AM EST
    on the historical reasons for "Midwestern nice," here at the crossroads of the country, in a book called Heartland, edited by J. Madison.  

    You would see your relatives in it, and have some good laughs at some of the very clever essays.  Of course, the question is whether your relatives would see themselves in it?

    And I find discussions with my many friends from New York fascinating, as they tell of their years of trying to "tone it down" to get along here -- where getting along has historically been a basic survival skill.  So we talk about the weather and sports.  Never about politics, religion, etc.

    Parent

    Why was the questioner in such a hurry? (none / 0) (#196)
    by Slado on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 02:14:17 PM EST
    While it is rude for someone to use the express lane incorrectly it is not a crime and the responsibility of enforcing the rules is at the discretion of the store that is providing the express lane as a convenience to their customers.

    Basically as I see it the complain-tent in this matter was in such a hurry that they couldn't wait 5 minutes for such a terribly injustice to be carried out before their eyes.

    Rather then walk over and point this out to the manager said person decided to become a grocery store vigilante and take matters into their own hands.  Not saying for a moment that the 60 item person isn't at fault one has to wonder what other issues the complain-tent in this mater has that they feel the need to step in.

    Then they got theirs when the obviously rude person over reacted to an insult in the form of a question that I'm sure was said loud enough and for effect so that everyone in the area knew that this person had been called out for their rudeness.

    Point being that any form of sympathy I would have for the victim went out the window when they responded to rudeness with rudeness.

    Moms all over the world have told their children that two wrongs don't make a right and that simple life lesson applies in this case.


    Slightly OT (none / 0) (#198)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 02:33:48 PM EST
    This is a extraordinary story about standing in line, bad behavior, and what someone heroically did to thwart the line jumper...

    If you ever want to see British queuing at its best, go to Victoria Station in London during the rush hour and watch the people filter out of the station and queue for the buses - long snaking queues stretching patiently across the concourse, some with gaps in to allow buses (and people) to go through.

    Except, that is, when the Underground Train drivers are on strike. When that happens, every single Tube commuter tries to use the buses instead, and a significant portion seem to decide that the queues obviously don't apply to them because their journey is far more important and must be completed RIGHT NOW!!!11ONEONE.

    In other words, they become queue jumpers.

    Queue jumpers are generally a weasily and cowardly lot who like to pick on the weak. In contrast, I'm a big stocky bloke with a shaven head. It doesn't matter that on the inside I'm a nerdy bloke who generally wouldn't hurt a fly, when John McQueuejump skulks into view he generally scurries quickly past me avoiding my gaze and looks for better prey.

    This was exactly what happened one day, when I found myself part of the aforementioned queuing at Victoria during a Tube Strike......