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Progressives And The Battle For The Political Future

Last Night's primary results highlighted the strength of the Tea Party in the Republican Party. Will this be a positive development for the Republican Party and/or the ideals, such as they are, of the Tea Party? Most folks think not. We'll see. But to me it highlights the state of flux of the political debate. The old order of Beltway politics seems to be in some danger.

Many thought the ascension of Barack Obama to the Presidency was a transforming change (and in terms of race, obviously it was) in our politics. Nearly two years later, this obviously is not true. And this fact creates an interesting and possibly dynamic opportunity for progressives to change the course of the political debate. I'll explain why I think so on the flip.

I have long espoused a progressive movement working within the Democratic Party. And I still do. But working within the Democratic Party is not the equivalent of being enslaved to it.

Electorally, a key component is the primary. I've long believed that every candidate needs a challenger. The reason for this is campaigns are where issues HAVE to be debated (however poorly.) It is where votes on legislation are challenged. It's where accountability can be had. Any challenge, even a long shot one, is better than no challenge.

The Democratic Party Establishment, like any entrenched group, does not like to be challenged. But progressives' interests are not those of the Establishment. Their interest is in getting the Establishment to adopt their views on the issues and then vote and fight for those views.

But primaries is not where the choices end. Deciding which Democrat to fight for in the general election is also a choice for progressives.

There are many races where progressives (at least national progressives) are basically irrelevant. Think Ben Nelson. Fighting for or against Ben Nelson is a fool's errand for national progressives. Similarly, I believe fighting for Dems like Jack Conway of Kentucky is wasted progressive resources. Many in the Dem blogs have adopted the Kentucky Senate race. There are a few reasons for this. Perhaps the most important is that making fun of Rand Paul is easy and draws viewers. But does throwing national progressive support behind Jack Conway make sense? I think not. Conway is not espousing progressive view now and will not fight for progressive issues in the future. His fight is a Kentucky fight, and statewide, Kentucky is not progressive.

By contrast, Barbara Boxer has been fighting for progressive issues her entire career and she is currently in a tough race, much tougher than expected. Losing Boxer would be disastrous for progressives. In my opinion, Boxer's race should be the number one race on the progressive radar.

The Democrats are going to lose the November elections handily. Indeed, I think they lose the House and the Senate. But for progressives, there is more to lose than the House and Senate -- they can lose the political debate in the Democratic Party.

If Jack Conway or Joe Sestak or even Harry Reid lose, that's a bad thing. I hope they all win. But none of these defeats will be a defeat for progressives in the political debate. But if Barbabra Boxer loses, that is a progressive defeat.

What I am suggesting is that progressives need to prioritize their electoral activism in the same way they prioritize their issue activism - fight hard for the issues they care about by fighting hard for the pols who have fought for those issues.

Many thought the ascension of Obama was a progressive win. Obviously it wasn't on issues. The needle moved to the Center after 8 years of incompetence. But progressives have won very little and need to concentrate on winning fights for their pols and worry less about winning fights for the Establishment Dems.

As I said, I can think of no contest where a GOP win is preferable to a Dem win. But I can think of many races where a Dem loss is much more consequential to progressives than your standard issue Blue dog race.

Heath Shuler, Travis Childers, Gene Taylor, Jim Marshall, John Barrow, Allen Boyd, etc. I hope they all win. But their losses will not effect progressivism in the political debate. The progressive movement will suffer 10 times the loss if Boxer loses than if all the people I mention above lose.

These are just examples and you can do this analysis for just about every race in the country. And that is what progressives need to do. I once wrote a post called Relativity, Uncertainty, Big Tent and Political Space Time Curvature. This was my thesis:

I want to introduce my own concept of political space time curvature to help us better understand the Politics of Contrast (or Definition, as Texeira and Halpin call it) and the need for a Big Tent Democratic Party. Earlier, I wrote:

[. . .] I would like to expand on this idea, incorporating "political space-time curvature." Let's recall T&H's 5 postulates:

(1) The starting point for all political organizing and campaigns should be: "What are my core beliefs and principles and how do I best explain them to supporters and skeptics alike?"

(2) Every political battle, both proactive and defensive, should represent a basic statement of progressive character and present a clear, concise contrast with conservatives. Do not blur lines.

(3) All issue campaigns and agenda items are not equal. Progressives should focus their efforts on issues that can simultaneously strengthen the base and appeal to centrist voters. Progressives must be willing to make sacrifices and tradeoffs -- in terms of coalition building and budgetary concerns -- to achieve their most important agenda items.

(4) Escalate battles that expose the extremism of the right or splinter their coalition. [Follow-up: When confronted with the right's social, cultural, or national security agenda, the absolute worst response is to fail to combat these caricatures or to explain one's position directly to voters, regardless of the popularity of the position.]

(5) Every political action should highlight three essential progressive attributes: a clear stand on the side of those who lack power, wealth or influence; a deep commitment to the common good; and a strong belief in fairness and opportunity for all.

As general themes and principles, these postulates can be applied in every region of the nation. But they will not lead to uniform specific issue positions for Democrats everywhere. The political gravity or, "political space time curvature" in Nebraska or Mississippi is different from that in say, Rhode Island. But the progressive or Democratic position in each of these locations can clearly be discerned and is the position for Democrats to follow in each of them.

So how do we determine what the political gravity is in the locales and how do we determine the "progressive position?" How do we determine how far progressives can push? What is the velocity of progressivism and where does it stand across the Nation?

I want to expand this idea, which I earlier applied to the Democratic Party, to national progressives. National progressives need to keep their eye on what they care about - advancing their agenda in the political debate, electorally, legislatively and in terms of the political debate.

In terms of the upcoming election, it is clear that the Dems are going to get trounced in November. Progressives need to try and avoid their fate. How best to present the progressive brand and to forward progressive issues should be the thought process for progressives. The DNC has a different job.

The rejection of Dems in November need not be a rejection of progressivism. But in order to avoid that fate, progressives must decouple their priorities from those of the Democratic Party. They must fight for progressives (and should vote for all Dems) and make clear why they are fighting for progressives.

When the Blue Dogs get wiped out, when the Beltway Dems get rejected, progressives, if successful in helping progressive candidates win, can point to their successes and truthfully say that it was the Blue Dog/Beltway Democratic Party that was rejected, not the Progressive Dem Party. That would be an important achievement by the progressive movement.

For the political fight for progressivism does not end with the 2010 election or the 2012 election or the 2014 and 2016 elections. It is a long hard slog.

Speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    Hear, hear! (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 10:55:42 AM EST


    +1 (none / 0) (#6)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:20:40 AM EST
    Barbara has been in pretty tough races before.  we were a little worried in 98 as I remember but she pulled it out.
    I think she will this time as well.  but its a crazy year.

    Parent
    Harry or Boxer: whom to help? (none / 0) (#59)
    by MKS on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:32:19 PM EST
    I think Californians should stay home and help out Boxer.

    Too many Californians fell asleep at the wheel in 2008 and helped out the efforts in Nevada.....thus letting Prop 8 sneak out a win.....

    Parent

    I will probably (none / 0) (#71)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:59:37 PM EST
    help them both.  

    Parent
    Ambivalent about Boxer (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:09:06 AM EST
    I voted for Boxer twice ('92 and '98) and certainly don't regret those votes.  But her leadership in further incribing second class citizenship for women in the health insurance bill shows that she's too tied to Democratic party leadership's movement to the right to be trusted anymore, I think.

    I can't really see the reasoning in voting for any Democrat that I don't believe would openly fight and rebel, with their votes, against the rightward trend.  

    Hard to do better than her (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:26:41 AM EST
    in the Senate. No pol is perfect, of course.

    Parent
    IOW (2.33 / 3) (#7)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:23:42 AM EST
    She voted for Obama... not Clinton.... lol

    Parent
    I thought she voted for Clinton. (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:31:47 AM EST
    But maybe I'm wrong.  I thought she was going to vote for whomever won the CA primary.  But if you say she voted for Obama I believe you.  You seem pretty stuck in 2008 so I defer to your knowledge of the subject.

    Not sure what any of that has to do with the price of milk, though?

    Parent

    Clinton released her delegates (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:33:40 AM EST
    Yes (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:36:09 AM EST
    She said that she would vote for whoever won the CA primary, but, at least according to this list, she cast her superdelegate vote for Obama..

    Parent
    Clinton released her delegates (none / 0) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:45:20 AM EST
    Why ruin a good fairy tale with facts? (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:08:02 PM EST
    actually no lol about it (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by hookfan on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:46:00 AM EST
    That split still exists since the primaries, and the so called progressive votes against women's issues,and against a progressive health CARE bill,etc. has only widened the gap. Those votes, that gap is going to be a big factor in why Democrats are going to get flushed. It will be very interesting to see the percentage of the toilet bowled Clintonites, and the laughed at dfh's that don't show up.

    Parent
    Show up and vote third party... (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by lambertstrether on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:11:03 PM EST
    or spoil your ballot with a "None of the Above" write in (depending on jurisdiction).

    Votes get counted and become part of the narrative. (And what we don't want is the "voter apathy" narrative). Show up, vote, and vote affirmatively for an alternative to the legacy parties.

    Boxer, whoever. Getting to a place where we have some alternative is more important than any one pol.

    Parent

    That's not the issue for Boxer (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:47:59 AM EST
    Are you sure (none / 0) (#47)
    by hookfan on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:11:48 PM EST
    that Boxer isn't getting tarred by the same brush? Heck, the economy and that split (not either/or but both/and) deserved/undeserved will be the cause of incumbents getting flushed. The Democratic brand is tainted. You can be 100% correct and I doubt the angry voters will see it that way.

    Parent
    I'm positive (none / 0) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:23:15 PM EST
    Positive can be 51/49 (none / 0) (#62)
    by hookfan on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:47:40 PM EST
    and I think you are playing too much inside baseball that wont matter in the least to the voters. "Making the bill less bad". . .? Who the eff cares. She (and the Democratric Party to which she belongs) were not elected to produce the krap they've produced nor to vote for bills that exclude at minimum an effective public option or reduce access to abortion services. The outcome, for the voters, far outweighs any rationale for the process. If Boxer didn't want to be struggling she could have voted differently. She's earned the struggle, and so has the Democratic party.

    Parent
    IOW ... (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Yman on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:13:11 PM EST
    ... if you criticize Obama, I'll just make up words and put them in your mouth.....

    ... uhhhhmmm ...

    ... lol?!?

    Parent

    No she didn't. (none / 0) (#49)
    by rennies on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:13:15 PM EST
    Link? (none / 0) (#50)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:15:03 PM EST
    Not that it is the issue here, as dk has pointed out.  

    Parent
    for me it comes down to this (none / 0) (#4)
    by CST on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:14:22 AM EST
    on these important issues, are they fighting for you, or fighting against you during the decision making process.  There are a couple senators who were clearly fighting against progressive goals.  The public option/medicare expansion opponents, for example.  Or those who were intent and succesfull at watering down the financial bill.

    If they were working for you in that process to make the bill stronger rather than weaker (Bernie Sanders comes to mind), whether they ultimately went for the eventual compromise, you know they are at least pushing that compromise to the left.

    But to each his/her own.

    Parent

    I guess the hard part is (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:26:21 AM EST
    defining what "fighting" is.  I mean, she is a relatively senior member of the senate, and was responsible for the portion of the bill that sets back civil rights for women.  To her credit, she did own up to her role in the betrayal.

    Sure, she is not as odious as some, but IMO longer can carry the mantle as a progressive after that.  For some, being less odious than others is enough reason to vote for her.   As you say, to each his/her own.  I just don't think calling her a progressive at this point is accurate anymore.

    Parent

    She was not responsible for it (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:34:37 AM EST
    I think you are not being factual.

    She was responsible for it not being worse.

    Parent

    She took the lead (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:37:03 AM EST
    in crafting a portion of the bill that further inscribed second class citizenship for women into federal law, and then she voted for the bill.  That the law could have been worse doesn't invalidate my previous sentence.

    Parent
    She took the lead (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:46:48 AM EST
    in making it less bad.

    Perhaps she should have just voted No. That is an argument. But that is NOT the argument you are making.

    Your argument is false in that it states that restricting women's choice was Boxer's idea. It clearly was not.

    Parent

    Nowhere did I (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:53:55 AM EST
    state that restricting women's choice was Boxer's idea.  

    What I wrote is factual.  She took the lead in crafting the portion of the bill.  That portion restricted women's choice.  She voted for the bill.  

    IMO, someone who does that is not a progressive. I'm sure we all have different definitions of what it means to be a progressive, so obviously I'm only giving my own opinion.  I'm sure she had all sorts of reasons for doing it, many of which were with good intentions.  But in the end she helped craft and voted for something that is, IMO, reprehensively unprogressive.

    Parent

    Yep (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:06:09 PM EST
    Just say no was the only progressive strategy on such an issue. With anything else, while you can argue that maybe what she did made a horrible law a tiny bit less horrible, it doesn't make what she did progressive in any way, shape or form.  She felt that our rights could be negotiated away, bottom line, end of story.  

    Screwing women is now perfectly acceptable in Democratic circles though, so many people even when they think they're feminist, have lost all sense of perspective.  As Democrats move right on women's issues, so do that purported feminists, because they have to, to defend these unquestionably non-progressive moves.

    Parent

    someone (none / 0) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:07:55 PM EST
    has certainly lost all perspective

    Parent
    Right, by all means (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by brodie on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:15:52 PM EST
    "true" progressives should punish the merely "partial" progressive Boxer by sitting on their hands in CA this Nov, so that anti-choice Carly Fiorina, the Gooper who wants to overturn Roe, can sneak into the senate.

    Great idea.  Reminds me of the cherry-picking purist Nadirites in 2000 who couldn't figger out the difference betw Gore and Shrub and who wanted to punish the partial progressive Gore for not pushing hard enough on the environment, etc.

     

    Parent

    Roe has been stripped (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:24:10 PM EST
    of most of its effectiveness over the years.  The latest law restricting women's right to terminate their pregancies was the health insurance bill, which was passed by Democrats in Congress and signed by a Democratic President.

    Not disputing that Republicans would do the same thing, but no longer can we say that Democrats will advance women's rights on this issue.  They have shown through their votes that is not the case.

    Parent

    She didn't take the lead (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:00:00 PM EST
    That simply is not factual.

    Obviously BEN NELSON did.

     

    Parent

    Semantics (none / 0) (#36)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:05:08 PM EST
    She was a senior member of the senate who was given responsibility to go out there and negotiate with Nelson and be the face of "progressive" capitulation to a non-progressive policy.  To me, that put her in a leadership role in contrast to, say, more junior members of the senate who played no role in crafting the bill, compromise or not.  

    Parent
    Whatever (none / 0) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:09:53 PM EST
    I think what you REALLY mean is what TeresainSnow said - voting No was the only way to go.

    That's a reasonable opinion. I'm not sure I  agree.

    But your "semantics" was really misleading imo.

    Parent

    I agree with TeresainSnow (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:12:47 PM EST
    Heck, I stayed home in the MA GE because Coakley announced she would vote for the healthcare bill. I certainly believe that anyone who voted for the bill is not a progressive.

    But I also think that Boxer's leadership position is significant.  She wasn't a back bencher.

    Parent

    She worked on the Senate "compromise" (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:39:44 AM EST
    with Ben Nelson. The language that most people agree was superior to Stupak-Pitts.

    I can see seeing either version as a betrayal, but it's clear to me that she was trying to make the best of a bad situation.

    Parent

    So, as "partial progressive" (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 06:11:47 PM EST
    is pooh-poohed here as a term to describe those who declare themselves Progressives but do not always act as Progressives -- much like the Blue Dogs who declare themselves Dems but do not always vote as Dems -- I'll toss out a new term.

    These are not Progressives.

    These are Blue Puppies.

    Parent

    Post Progressive (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by hookfan on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 06:33:44 PM EST
    Blue Puppies. . . Yeah! Them's really fightin'animals--especially when compared to Republican Pit Bulls. . . seems about right.

    Parent
    sorry (none / 0) (#10)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:28:18 AM EST
    thats just nuts

    Parent
    So a partial progressive (none / 0) (#13)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:32:32 AM EST
    is a true progressive?

    Sorry, although that's not nuts, it's a sorry commentary on so-called progressives.

    Parent

    I am not following you here (none / 0) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:35:35 AM EST
    Where did Capt Howdy say a "partial progressive" is a "true progressive"? And what the hell does that mean any way?

    Parent
    A progressive on some issues (none / 0) (#29)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:57:21 AM EST
    and for some people but not on all issues nor for all people = a partial progressive.

    So I coined the term to clarify the discussion; so what?  It was implied in saying that it is "nuts" to expect a purported progressive to be a progressive on all issues and for all people . . . such as the majority of the people.

    Parent

    Another way of saying (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by brodie on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:07:27 PM EST
    "partial progressive" is "not perfect".

    I get it.  BFD.  These are pols, designed to be less than perfect and to occasionally disappoint, especially when they're trying to put together something as dicey as health care reform that was as awful an example of compromise-driven sausage making as any bill ever.

    Btw, which left-leaning pol in history, by your definition, would escape your tarnish of mere "partial progressive"?

    Parent

    An occasional fault (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by hookfan on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:13:13 PM EST
    is not the same as voting against bedrock principle. And yeah, I see the results of voting for those who wimp out on principles-- look at the rightward "progress" for the last 30 years or so. Couple that with the overt lack of respect for so called "progressives" openly expressed by the Obama Administration. Then tell me how much progress we've made.

    Parent
    oh and btw (none / 0) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:08:50 PM EST
    have we noticed she, in spite of her "betrayal", is still fighting for her political life?

    Parent
    How do you know (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:01:18 PM EST
    "that nutz" refers to that?

    I took it to be about the issue I am discussing with dk now regarding Boxer's role on the Nelson Amendment.

    Parent

    Boxer has fought (5.00 / 0) (#38)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:06:31 PM EST
    for progressive issues her entire career.

    Parent
    When a constantly cryptic commenter (none / 0) (#34)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:04:32 PM EST
    continues to be so, that is a problem, yes -- more for the commenter, of course, but that's his call.

    So I take the comment to be replying to its "parent" comment.

    Parent

    this (none / 0) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:04:57 PM EST
    I just don't think calling her a progressive at this point is accurate anymore.


    Parent
    Exactly. (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:07:57 PM EST
    IMO, equality for women (for all people, really) under the law is non-negotiable position for progressives.  When you capitulate on that issue, I don't think you can be accurately be described as a progressive.  You can be better than the guy next to you, but not a progressive.

    You may disagree, and you may think I'm nuts.  That's fine.

    Parent

    Then there are no progressives anymore (5.00 / 0) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:11:35 PM EST
    You are a party of 1.

    Parent
    In the Democratic party-- seems so (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by hookfan on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:22:49 PM EST
    That's the perception because of the party's votes. And they're going to get creamed for it. Because that's not what they were elected to do.

    Parent
    Your comment is not comprehensible (none / 0) (#58)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:25:22 PM EST
    to me.

    In that I do not understand what you are trying to say.

    Parent

    "Progressives" are not (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by hookfan on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 03:02:03 PM EST
    progressive if they vote against core "Progressive" principles-- no matter how good a theatre play they put on "fighting" for something. I'm sick of the theatre and the constant caving on (now) core principles. The results are clear: the only "progress" we're getting is a further march in the rightward direction. The "center" is now right when it used to be moderate, imo. GW is now mainstream. So "Progressive" is now regressive.
     It's time for a line in the sand. Either the "Progressive" Democratic Party members stand for core principles as shown by their votes, or they're welcome to go the way of the dodo. My vote must be earned. I refuse any longer to be a cheap date.

     

    Parent

    Oh (none / 0) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:11:03 PM EST
    Yeah, that's nuts to me.

    The definition of progressive becomes an imaginary number.

    Parent

    Meh. (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:15:33 PM EST
    That's just the purist argument.  Heard it all before.

    Doesn't seem like pragmatism has been working out all too well either.

    Parent

    Horsesh*t (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:24:41 PM EST
    Name me one person in politics that qualifies as "progressive" by your definition?

    Parent
    Certainly no Democrat (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:55:05 PM EST
    who has voted for the health insurance bill, TARP, etc.

    All of these folks can call themselves loyal Democrats, but certainly not progressives.  

    There are still arguments to be made for voting for them over others (lesser of two evils is the only one that comes to mind right now), but trying to justify vote/support by calling people progressive who do not vote progressive doesn't make sense to me.

    Parent

    You just invent your own definition (none / 0) (#69)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:56:21 PM EST
    As I said, you are a party of 1.

    I hope you succeed in expanding your group, as  a Centrist, I need a good left flank.

    Parent

    Everyone invents their (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    own definition.  Yours is just a tautology, because you just pick a group of existing politicians and call them progressive because they are who they are.

    I base my definition on issues, and then categorize politicians on how they vote on issues.  Again, no problem for me if you don't agree with it.  

    Parent

    I have I think (none / 0) (#81)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:36:53 PM EST
    the better argument that Boxer is a progressive than you have that Boxer is not a progressive.

    BTW, tautologies are not involved in this discussion. I think you meant some other word.

    Parent

    Your definition, in my (none / 0) (#102)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:35:51 PM EST
    opinion, is a rhetorical tautology because it comprises an argument, whereby the statements are constructed in such a way that the truth of the propositions is guaranteed or that the truth of the propositions cannot be disputed by defining a term in terms of another self-referentially.

    You are not defining progressivism by any objective measure, only by what Barbara Boxer does.  I just happen to believe that writing a bill, and voting for a bill, that reduces women's rights is the mark of a progressive.

    Of course you think you have the better argument.  Doesn't mean that it is.

    Parent

    That's ridiculous (none / 0) (#103)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:44:38 PM EST
    Boxer has done what she has done, and by any reasonable measure, she has been a force for progressivism throughout her public life.

    By your definition of tautology, every discussion boils down to tautology. In one sense, this is true. But it is not consistent with its modern usage.

    Boxer has a record we can all see.

    This is not a case of me adulating Boxer then defining progressivism as those things Boxer is for.

    Your arguments are simply ridiculous.
     

    Parent

    Arguing that (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:49:55 PM EST
    a progressive would vote for decidedly non-progressive bills such as TARP and the anti-choice health insurance bills are progressive (i.e., your argument) is simply ridiculous.

    So there we go.

    Parent

    If you want to (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:53:25 PM EST
    argue that Boxer, at one point, was a progressive, that's a different matter.  But you are talking about an election in the future.  Looking at her voting and leadership record over the last few years it is, my an objective measure at least, ridiculous to state that she is one.

    Let's see her oppose some of the current Democratic leadership's current rightward leaning policies  (not just with a stump speech, but with some votes).  Then get back to those of us who want to advocate for progessives in the federal government.  

    Parent

    Ok, so what do we who live in CA (none / 0) (#108)
    by nycstray on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 03:18:32 PM EST
    do? Vote for someone who will champion progressive issues when they can and try to lessen the impact on sh*t legislation, vote for Carly, or vote third party (possible vote for Carly with that action  . . . ) or stay home (see vote third party . . . )

    Are you comfortable with Sen Carly? Are you comfortable that with more Rep in Congress Obama could go even farther right? Is that the "progressive" stance these days?

    Parent

    To be honest, I don't think it (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 03:42:24 PM EST
    much matters what the outcome of the election is.  The policy outcomes will be the same.  As for Obama moving farther right, he has already been successful in passing anti-choice legislation and getting Barbara Boxer to back it.  Seems like the train has already left the station on moving right.

    The "Progessive" stance, in my opinion, is to vote for a progressive when I see one.  

    Parent

    You don't live here do you? (none / 0) (#115)
    by nycstray on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 03:53:55 PM EST
    The thought of Carly advocating for our state just scares the crap out of me. We have enough problems without her (or Meg!)

    And do you REALLY believe ALL the policy outcomes will be the same? REALLY? At least with Boxer we have some record of progressiveness and you can hope for more in the future (especially if O goes totally lame duck), Carly, well . . . .

    So you would just let Carly walk on in in order to preserve your progressive creds?

    Parent

    No, I don't believe (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 04:08:12 PM EST
    every outcome would be exactly the same.  But essentially the same?  Yes.  And I did live in CA for quite a long time and still have family and friends there, so I know.

    Sure, the rhetoric of the two candidates is very different, and surely I prefer Boxer's rhetoric (until she caves, which is what she has been doing quite a lot of in throughout the Obama administration thus far).  But Boxer, who is a relatively senior member of the senate and, IMO, has a lot more power than you seem to give her credit for, helped to craft and voted for reprehensibly anti-progressive bills over the past few years.  

    It is not MY progressive creds I am preserving.  There is little to no progressivism going on at the national level, and that includes the bills I have been referencing.  That is the reality.  I know you don't like it; I don't like it either.  But it is what it is.  Both choices are bad.  I just hope that someday enough people realize this and things change.  Both parties are leading us over a cliff at this point.

    Parent

    I'm hoping Boxer (none / 0) (#118)
    by nycstray on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 05:55:43 PM EST
    gives up on Obama, as do a few others. Carly is just plain wrong though. I'm registered 3rd party (Green), so I feel no need/commitment to support Dems in name only. My main issue right now is how many more scary republicans are going to end up in Congress. They dun gone plain mad. And Carly is nothing short of a disaster. I honestly didn't think I was going to have to vote, lol!~ Oh, to be back in NY for this election . . . .  Boxer isn't always bad, but Carly will be guaranteed. {sigh}

    Parent
    Once a "Progressive" (none / 0) (#110)
    by hookfan on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 03:22:28 PM EST
    always a "Progressive". . .

    Parent
    This is just being nihilistic (none / 0) (#64)
    by MKS on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:52:00 PM EST
    All the Dems in the Senate voted for the reconciliation HCR--except for who--just Nelson and Landrieu?  And they didn't bolt because of choice....

    So, all those Dems on the ballot who voted for the reconciliation HCR are not worth supporting?

    That, if that is what you are saying, is just nuts.....

    Just replace all the Dems with Republicans to punish the Dems for not being true progressives?  Good gawd, that is among the more nihilistic things I can think of.

    Parent

    Well, to be more precise, (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    what I'm saying is that none of the Dems who voted for the reconciliation HCR are not progressive.  

    There could be other arguments for supporting them.  But this post was claiming we should support the progressive ones.  I don't see any.

    Parent

    Oops, double negatives. Grr. (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by dk on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:12:18 PM EST
    I mean, none of the Dems who voted for the reconciliation HCR are progressive.

    Parent
    "is just nuts" (none / 0) (#68)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:55:14 PM EST
    um, YEAH!

    Parent
    Off topic (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by MKS on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:04:15 PM EST
    The first openly gay guy I knew was a librarian at College.

    He was very urbane, cultured....But having grown up in a community that did not have anyone who was gay (the closet door was quite shut), I asked him all my "gay" questions--when did you know? is it a choice? etc?

    He was quite witty so I liked to kid him about stuff.  So, one Monday I thought I would give him grief about not liking sports, so I asked him if he saw the "ball game" on Sunday.  His response, "There's only one kind ball game I'm interested in."

    Parent

    lol (none / 0) (#104)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:44:44 PM EST
    I deal with a lot of gays in my part-time antiques and collectibles scam and that out-of-left-field sense of humor is often truly a thing to behold..

    Parent
    Seems to me (none / 0) (#121)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 06:37:02 PM EST
    however, that repeating this line here from your friend, gives credence to the wrong-headed notion that all gays are perverts.  I don't think having odd-ball sense of humor or being disinterested in sports is a gay trait, but imputing same perpetuates a stereotype.  Sorry to pour cold water on your story, but I find it offensive.  And no, I am not gay.

    Parent
    no offense (none / 0) (#123)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 06:48:27 PM EST
    but that is probably why you find it offensive.

    I can tell you with some credibility that a perverse sense of humor is a very common gay trait as is a disinterest in most sports.  other than for the sightseeing aspect

    Parent

    Hmmmm (none / 0) (#124)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 06:55:29 PM EST
    gives credence to the wrong-headed notion that all gays are perverts

    because perverts do not like sports? Or is it that perverts like sex?

    Not following your logic here....

    Parent

    nor I (none / 0) (#125)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 07:08:39 PM EST
    the "ball game" comment an indication of being a pervert?

    wow.  if so they need to get out more.

    Parent

    I for one (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 07:16:34 PM EST
    object to sullying the reputation of our national pastime by associating it with baseball..

    Parent
    Maybe (none / 0) (#126)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 07:11:26 PM EST
    Witty and urbane.... urbane sounds sort of dirty... no?

    Parent
    Yes, (none / 0) (#128)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 07:17:06 PM EST
    the focus on/preference for sex

    Parent
    Oh (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 07:24:39 PM EST
    Guess I am a pervert too... lol.

    But on a more serious note, it appears that you are trying to pervert the commonly understood notion of a pervert.

    Parent

    Maybe they're (none / 0) (#114)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 03:48:02 PM EST
    things-have-to-get-horrible-before-they-get-better Trotskyites.

    Of course, the Russians invented nihilism too.

    Parent

    You have a point (none / 0) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:39:46 AM EST
    As a woman, and with what has gone down how do you want to play this?  In the past, before the recent "bipartisan" push, she used to be someone I felt I could count on.  Do I want to reward bad behavior?  No I don't, so it is a risk.  Things also in play for me at this time, I have Crist near me making some profound vetos that have me sitting up straight in my chair trying to see what he's going to do next.  I'm having a hard time taking my eyes off of him.  When I see that happening, it makes me feel like Boxer has felt the heat.  She has a history of being more of a committed progressive than anything else I have out there.

    Parent
    sure (5.00 / 0) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:51:28 AM EST
    not fighting for Boxer would have a definite nose/face aspect.

    Parent
    From my perspective perhaps (none / 0) (#99)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:31:37 PM EST
    A lot of women were very hurt by what was done though with women's rights.  Damage has been done, and even if Boxer was weighing in to avoid an even worse situation for women it was still all pretty hush hush.  To go strongly on the record as defending what was left of women's reproductive rights meant taking a stab at Obama, particularly considering how all that finally ended.

    How many of us were thrown under the bus?  Women and gays....we are all piled up under there.  I think we are going to have to gently coax each other out from under there with battle plans that establish our ability to keep ourselves safe by being able to actually comtemplate "to hell with all of them" when needed.

    It is going to be tough to get some people back in the fight.  A good way to do it though IMO is to outline a fight for them/us and support each other in that.

    Some women would argue that if Boxer had stayed out of it they would have come up with some sort of truly horrible legislation that would have allowed a final burning it all down confrontation on women's reproductive rights.  What she did do keeps the struggle ongoing with our rights being carved away more and more.  I can easily fall into that category at times.

    I like to win wars with the fewest battles fought so it makes sense to me to internalize what BTD wrote up.  Others may have to take other paths getting to that place though.  But the best goal in my mind is to get as many of us to that place as we can.

    Parent

    Speaking of those thrown under the bus (none / 0) (#122)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 06:40:52 PM EST
    this is why I think Simpson should be publicly rebuked for his comments and forced to leave the commission.  Our thinking that his continued presence will weaken the commission is something one concludes only when communicating with other like-minded progressives or liberals.

    Parent
    I agree (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 07:35:37 PM EST
    And IMO he is a heinous and often dangerous piece of work.  And nobody hires him that is a Democrat unless they want to make use of the fact that he can be a dangerous piece of work. He isn't anybody politically anymore either, he is accountable to no voter....he's just a guy with a history in politics that can be sold to the unwashed masses while he takes up an extremely dangerous position when it comes to upholding New Deal economics.  Obama doesn't like New Deal economics and never before have we needed them more.  It is no mystery though what the hell he is doing in the position he is in.

    Parent
    Fiorina is hard line pro-life (none / 0) (#61)
    by MKS on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:38:39 PM EST
    Boxer voted for both of Obama's nominees for the Supreme Court.  Fiorina wouldn't have.

    "Pro-choice" Brown of Massachusettes voted against Kagan.....

    Beware of too much purity here.

    Boxer is as progressive as it gets.....

    Boxer is great on the environment....

    Parent

    Beware of throwing the "purity" word (none / 0) (#101)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:34:46 PM EST
    around I would say :)  It is good though to remind women who have been harmed by what the healthcare legislation did of who Boxer will give us and has given us on the court and who Fiorina will give us.

    Parent
    Agreed on the importance of primaries (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Mimir on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:14:57 AM EST
    To paraphrase Lincoln to McClellan:

    "Dear Mr. President - If you don't want to use the Presidency, I should like to borrow it for a while."

    signed,
    Progressive challenger in 2012

    Nobody knows what the word 'progressive' means (5.00 / 4) (#92)
    by lambertstrether on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:07:42 PM EST
    As is all-too-evident from this thread, and as Atrios pointed out:

    Maybe Because It Doesn't Really Mean Anything?
    One of the truly stupid things that the organized and funded left spent years doing was to rebrand themselves as "progressive."

    And the career "progressives" acting as shills for D factions didn't help any. "Progressive" as a term is a dead parrot.

    Good writing (none / 0) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 10:58:35 AM EST
    I've been so frustrated and I know I'm not alone.  I have closed my wallet too.  If I really mean to win though, and I do, there are probably some investments worth making.  God knows the stock market isn't :)

    If Obama is faced with a Republican (none / 0) (#12)
    by Buckeye on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:32:09 AM EST
    legislature in 2011 and 2012, I wonder what will happen?  They were unified in opposition to all the centrist pro-corporate policies he passed (or tried to pass).  The only way the country does not get even less progressive after 2010 is if Obama finds his inner political genuis (which I do not believe we have seen yet).  Obama is going to have to out-manuever/triangulate around the republican majority with the American people and figure out a way to force/trick Republicans to vote for progressive legislation.  All this while fighting two wars and in the middle of the worst economy since the Great Depression.

    And my Doctor thinks I can now sleep at night without my medication????

    what proof is there (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by hookfan on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:02:32 PM EST
    that Obama even wants progressive legislation? His framing of health insurance legislation using Republican ideas? His establishing HAMP as a service to the banks rather than homeowners? His prioritizing of the financial industry's stability over main street? His deal with the Pharmaceutical industry to disallow prescription drug imports? His executive order making it more difficult to access abortion services? His deriding the left on their desire for decriminalization of marijuana? His willingness to pursue the assassination of an american citizen without due process? His willingness to allow mock trials in the Military Commissions?

    Parent
    Yeah...but other than those few nits (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Buckeye on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:20:22 PM EST
    he has been pretty good.  Don't be such a perfectionist.

    Parent
    Sorry (none / 0) (#60)
    by hookfan on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:32:43 PM EST
    I forgot the perfect must not be the enemy of the good. . .

    Parent
    I'd put Feingold and Murray right after Boxer (none / 0) (#21)
    by steviez314 on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:40:55 AM EST
    in terms of effort needed to be made.

    And I still think that Lincoln/Halter was wasted resources.  I don't see any Democrats chastened by the close primary, and it was entirely a difference of losing by 20 or by 30.

    Fair point on Halter (none / 0) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 11:44:49 AM EST
    Perhaps the race was unwinnable and truly no one has been chastened.

    She needed to be beaten for that.

    Parent

    Possibly a fair point on Feingold (none / 0) (#32)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:02:17 PM EST
    who told me, to my face and in public, that he would not vote for a health insurance bill (aka "health care reform") that included . . . well, all that it eventually included.

    It's the downside of being a proud maverick.  He ends up being left out of some discussions, I think.

    And yet, of course, he is being solidly attacked in his opponent's ads for being responsible, as a Dem, for all that Obama and all of the Dems have done.

    I prefer his fighting stance, though, to the below-the-radar, what-has-he-done-anyway record of the senior Senator from Wisconsin.

    Parent

    Does Lincoln's loss in the general (none / 0) (#66)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:54:59 PM EST
    wise up any Democrats to the folly of behaving liek Republicans?

    Parent
    I wish it were so (none / 0) (#70)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:57:24 PM EST
    but I do not think so.

    Parent
    Arkansas was always the wrong state to try this (none / 0) (#79)
    by steviez314 on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:29:48 PM EST
    strategy.  Going left would never have helped Lincoln there.

    Look at how the Tea Party pushes the Republicans right effectively in only the very red states.  It could easily backfire in NV, FL, and even KY.

    The only example of progressive pressure working was just an amorphous threat of a primary in NY to help push Gillebrand left.

    Parent

    which strategy do you mean (none / 0) (#87)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:52:42 PM EST
    tacking to the right or challenging her for doing it?
    I think it would have been a perfect place, since any democrat will likely lose, to stand up for our principles and nominate the guy who was at least closer to being a real democrat.


    Parent
    The millions labor spent would come in handy now (none / 0) (#89)
    by steviez314 on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:00:29 PM EST
    in IL, MO, CA, NV--close races all.

    I don't think the primary challenge in Arkansas sent any message to any Democrat.

    Parent

    I (none / 0) (#90)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:05:04 PM EST
    would disagree

    Parent
    You can (none / 0) (#63)
    by lilburro on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:48:36 PM EST
    help us defeat this guy...Illario Pantano.

    In April 2004, Pantano killed two unarmed Iraqi detainees, twice unloading his gun into their bodies and firing between 50 and 60 shots in total. Afterward, he placed a sign over the corpses featuring the Marines' slogan "No Better Friend, No Worse Enemy" as a message to the local population.

    His opponent is a blue dog, but still, it would be shameful to see him voted in.

    Good post (none / 0) (#65)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 12:53:10 PM EST
    and you nailed Kentucky.

    I guess we got to go through Hell before we get to Heaven.  If the GOP takes over by routing Blue Dogs that may, in the longer run, be a good thing.

    Let's face it, a GOP controlled Congress offers nothing in the way of slutions for the economy. That will become obvious to th emost casual of observers.  What we will see will be a two year freak show of investigations and right wing insanity that will set the stage for a Democratic comeback in 2012, by a Democratic Party that has been purged of its self-defeating Blue Dogs.  

    Unless, like Clinton, Obama plays ball with and treats the GOP Congress with more respect than it deserves (and gets nothing but articles of impeachment for his efforts).  By this I mean co-opting GOP positions.  Which is, what I fear, will be his inclination heading into 2012.  Obama should be prepared for political warfare and vetoing whatever the nutjobs pass.

    I will hold my nose and vote for Conway.  But I don't care if he wins.  A Democratic Party dependent on the likes of COnway, Nelson and Lieberman cannot deliver anyhow.  At most they keep the GOP nuts from delivering on their insane policies.

    What kills me is (none / 0) (#74)
    by CST on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:05:07 PM EST
    the stakes on this are so high.  And there is a lot more going on in the senate or house than just one bill.  This extends to simple things like extending unemployment benefits.  If the republicans had control of things, these would have run out months ago.  That's bread and butter for a lot of people.

    For a little perspective, here is the "RINO" Scott Brown's voting record.  Do we really think we couldn't have done better with Coakley?  That race, and all the others, could end up mattering a lot more in a few months.  Some key exerpts:

    07/29/2010 Establishing Small Business Lending Fund and Amending Tax Laws Amdt 4519 - Voted No

    07/21/2010 - Unemployment Benefits Extension
    HR 4213 - Voted No

    04/15/2010 Unemployment Benefits Extension
    HR 4851 - Voted No

    03/03/2010 Payment to Social Security Recipients
    S Amdt 3353 - Voted No (this one failed by 3 votes)

    05/19/2010 Allowing States to Limit Credit Card Interest Rates S Amdt 3746  - Voted No

    Some of these passed anyway, some of them didn't.  All of them have a measurable effect on the economy and daily lives of real people.

    Which is why even though Jack Conway is not a (none / 0) (#80)
    by steviez314 on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:33:37 PM EST
    progressive, since KY is close and do-able, there should be some effort made there too.

    You just don't know when that vote might be needed and available.

    Parent

    the problem with blue dogs (none / 0) (#82)
    by CST on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:42:20 PM EST
    is i don't see that their voting record would be much different from that.

    With someone like Boxer, or Coakley, or even Reid - the difference is clear.

    That being said, sure, go out and vote for Conway.  I'm sure he's better than the alternative, and as you said, in the next term we might need every vote whenever we can get it.

    Parent

    It's also for the narrative... (none / 0) (#84)
    by steviez314 on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:45:02 PM EST
    the more Democrats that win (even if not progressive), the fewer days I'll have to hear "center-right country" on TV after the elections.

    Parent
    true (none / 0) (#86)
    by CST on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:51:51 PM EST
    although I think the gist of BTDs point in this post is that it is even better for the narrative, that if Dems do end up losing, the ones who are safe are the ones on the left.  In other words, that it's not politically advantageous to tack right, but it is politically advantageous to tack left.

    That doesn't mean you don't vote for whomever you can, but if you're going to prioritize funding/support, prioritize on those Dems first.

    Parent

    If the progressive Dems win and the Blue Dogs lose (none / 0) (#88)
    by steviez314 on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:57:34 PM EST
    do you think there's going to be a single newspaper or TY show that points that out?

    Every Blue Dog could lose, and they'd still say we are a "center-right" country.

    While there are a few progressives who are in danger, most are totally safe.  And some seats are lost no matter what (I'm thinking Halter/Lincoln). After that, it comes down to supporting some Dogs or not in the close ones.

    Parent

    Does not matter (none / 0) (#96)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:13:11 PM EST
    in the sense that they have to name who lost.

    But I do think it would be noticed.

    Parent

    Center right country.. (none / 0) (#97)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:13:38 PM EST
    In some ways, watching the Charlie Rose show on the "liberal" PBS perfectly illustrates the problem and how "the money" sets the agenda in this country. The two quests with the most appearances on the show since the early nineties? Kissinger (who can't even travel in some parts of the world for fear of arrest), and Tom Friedman.

    But, I still say the lack of populist-left fire and thunder and clearly defined, unwavering stances on the major issues stems from the absence of the pressure-from-the-bottom that used to come from organized labor -- before the Republican and Democratic boys from "the club" began their mutual post-WWII defanging project.  

    Parent

    Not doable (none / 0) (#95)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:12:14 PM EST
    and not worth doing.

    Parent
    Does anyone here (none / 0) (#83)
    by NYShooter on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:44:48 PM EST
    See any significance in McCain's decisive win over Hayworth? Does it mean the voters are taking a step back from the truly crazy Right, or was it simply a victory of money over matter?


    I think it was more the huckster label that stuck (none / 0) (#85)
    by steviez314 on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 01:46:46 PM EST
    after the infomercial stuff came out about JD.

    McCain went pretty right-crazy (for him) after all.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#93)
    by Slado on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:10:24 PM EST
    Don't play the media game of trying to discredit a whole movement because the election doesn't fallow it's all to predictable narrative.

    Remember Connecticut?   Even though there was massive movement in the progressive ranks for true progressive candidates we still have a Senator from Connecticut named Liberman.   It didn't mean that the whole movement wasn't real and the election of Obama bears that out.

    Similar thing is happening here.   The up swell is real but not invincible and old school politics and money will still win the day in some races.

    Parent

    The Tea Party "movement" is here to stay (none / 0) (#91)
    by Slado on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:07:10 PM EST
    In some form or another.

    What I mean is a certain large group say 15 to 25% of the electorate, if not more, is completely fed up with government.

    I count myself in that category.  I can no longer stomach to call myself a republican.   I have gone through a transformation from Clinton voting college student to Bush supporter to complete Ron Paul libertarian if I had to choose a title.

    The Tea Party movement is just how the media and the political class are classifying the large group of people who are tired of taking orders from Washington and don't trust either party to run the federal bureaucracy properly.   We can see with our own eyes that Washington keeps getting bigger no matter who is in charge and our problems get no better.

    The media all too predictably wants to raise up the movement too quickly then tear it down when it doesn't meet it's unrealistic expectations.   Sound familiar?  

    However the simple fact remains that a lot of people are completely tired of fighting for the attention of two parties that are quite frankly too similar and only try to divide us on social issues that really don't affect my daily life.

    As My Man Mitch said with great courage the other day I'm tired of wasting time fighting over abortion and immigration when our economy is in shambles.   Whichever party and or candidate starts to do that will get my vote.

    It's why I think a real independent candidate for president in 2012 might just have a shot.

    we agree on 2012 (none / 0) (#98)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:15:56 PM EST
    very interesting Maddow segment last night on the Tea Party astro turfing and the men responsible.
    the Koch brothers whos father was a founder of the John Birch society.

    Parent
    The Koch brothers (none / 0) (#100)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 02:34:11 PM EST
    figure prominently in the book What's Wrong With Kansas?

    Why can't these f*ckers do something humane with their money like help the work on over-population and alternative energy, rather than funding "Arkansas Projects" and Ayn Rand Studies programs at universities?

    Unfortunately, being grotesquely wealthy doesn't automatically make you sane. Would that it did.

    Parent

    Like giving 20 million dollars to the ACLU (none / 0) (#109)
    by me only on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 03:18:50 PM EST
    to litigate the Patriot Act?  Like giving $20 million to the American Museum of Natural History?

    Parent
    yeah (none / 0) (#111)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 03:24:54 PM EST
    that was actually addressed in the piece.  they do a lot of "good stuff" to get their names in the paper and paper over all the absolutely horrible stuff they do.

    they share the 9th richest man in the world slot.
    so they can afford it.


    Parent

    I'm reading that it (none / 0) (#112)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 03:41:31 PM EST
    was 10 million to the ACLU (though I agree that 20 million reads better). And I can almost guarantee it wasn't an "on principal" 10 million either. It wouldn't fit their m.o of being hyper-libertarian, what's-good-for-the-Koch-brothers business-is-good-for-the-USA types.

    The Museum of Natural History donation was, more than likely, to fund a Koch Brothers Memorial "philanthropists as the end point of evolution" wing..  

    Parent

    I am fairly certain that it (none / 0) (#117)
    by me only on Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 05:21:53 PM EST
    was $10 million per.  Soros and Rockefeller also each put $10 million additionally.

    It would fit their MO.  The Patriot Act is reviled much more by Libertarians than any other group.

    Parent