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Blaming the gun lobby and Sarah Palin for a guy who's likely been planning an assasination since 2007? Bad strategy, IMHO, since I'm not sure who Democrats are more afraid of -- Sarah Palin or the gun lobby. Either way, both of these factions will be incited by blaming them, and THEY, not the Democrats, will win in the end. They always do.
What have we racked up in the past couple of years? A shooting spree at a military base in Alabama; a plane flown into a federal building in Arizona; vandalism at Congressional offices across the country; this shooting spree at a political event that took a freakn' nine year old girl's life - and I think there's more that I am forgetting. Meanwhile, the Republican political strategy for the 2010 election was to support candidates across the country many of whom were calling for violent overthrow of government - and they claim they have no part in any of this rising violence? Sorry - I'm not cutting them a break.
The GOP knows that the powder keg is ready to blow and they've been tossing matches towards it for months if not years now. NOT OK. Parent
From Salon -
The high-capacity magazine of the semiautomatic pistol used in the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and more than a dozen other people on Saturday would have been illegal to manufacture and difficult to purchase under the Clinton-era assault weapons ban, which expired in 2004.
According to police and media reports, the alleged shooter, Jared Lee Loughner, legally purchased a semiautomatic Glock 19 with a high-capacity magazine in November at a gun store in Tucson. Under the assault weapons ban, it was illegal to manufacture or sell new high-capacity magazines, defined as those that hold more than 10 rounds. The magazines used by Loughner had 31 rounds each, according to police.
If Loughner had been using a traditional magazine, "it would have drastically reduced the number of shots he got off before he had to pause, unload and reload -- and he could have been stopped," Daniel Vice, senior attorney at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, tells Salon Parent
We can argue that the right does it more than the left or what the right does is more pernicious than the left, but it has gone go both ways to some extent and the right will have plenty of rebuttals if you go down this path. Parent
Palin talking about "reloading" is a LOADED statement.
But the reality is that this is not about isolated idiotic commentary from two-bit forgettable politicians - this is about a Republican communications strategy - one that they fully embraced in this campaign cycle - and I believe that they bear responsibility for throwing matches at the gasoline - they knew exactly what they were doing - a people like Palin who are calculating, mean and basically pretty insane, too probably aren't too worried about the consequences of their political games - even when people get shot. We are all - regardless of political affiliation - just fodder to them - pawns in their political games.
The Republican Party that I knew and never really loved, has completely lost its soul - I hope that the Republicans that I know and do love will start to take back their party. They've got a lot of work to do, but our democracy depends on their commitment and persistence at this juncture. Parent
I completely agree with the well written/thoughful last paragraph. But that does not give us the right to blame innocent people for murder. Parent
I really don't care what a person's party affiliation is when they go down that road, unless, as in this case, the person's party seems to approve of their statements - then I believe the party has to share in the responsibility for the consequences of their rhetoric.
I believe that you, I and everyone else in this country has the right to say whatever they want, but we also assume responsibility for the responses to our statements when we make them - whether we like it or not - we are a part of the story if we provoke. Parent
we also assume responsibility for the responses to our statements when we make them - whether we like it or not - we are a part of the story if we provoke
You have no idea what had influence on this guy. From what we are hearing, he is a far left wing nut who was a 9/11 conspiracy theorist that has been planning this since 2007. If that is the case, then you are wrong to point the finger at those you are blaming. Before we accuse first Loughner, second that other people (i.e. Palin) are responsible, then you need to back it up. I do not think they are responsible at all, and you have no proof they are. We will see as we learn more. Parent
Public grounds are hallowed land for me. I grew up in the political realm and have spent plenty of time with people of the opposing party to my own - but we never threatened each other's lives or suggested that someone else take each other's lives. NEVER. That would have been viewed as wholly undemocratic until recently. I am absolutely certain that the GOP Senator for whom I worked one summer would NEVER have engaged in such rhetoric. The Republican Party of the early 21st Century has gone off the rails and they are doing damage to our society, culture and our government. You can pretend that all this stuff they offer up about reloading and Second Amendment remedies is just harmless fluff, but that doesn't make it so. Ignore it at your own peril. Whacking this beehive may seem like a cool trick for the GOP to pull right now, but if they continue without pulling WAY back, none of us will be able to control it - and worst - ALL of us will be at risk. Playing to crazy people will always get everyone into trouble.
And as for this crazy kid who allegedly perpetrated this attack, he's almost irrelevant. He's a pawn in a political game. He's screwed up and crazy enough to act on screwed up and crazy rhetoric put forth by people WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER.
That sheriff had it right and you know why he's probably thought a lot about this issue? Because he's on the front lines everyday trying to clean up the messes that these careless and reckless political operatives are creating with their systematic rollout of this violent rhetoric. Parent
And as for this crazy kid who allegedly perpetrated this attack, he's almost irrelevant. He's a pawn in a political game.
shows you far off the deep end you are going. Parent
SIX people are DEAD. A nine year old girl is counted amongst the bodies, no less. 14 are wounded. REAL PEOPLE have been hurt.
Even if we find out down the road that this crazy kid got his dates wrong and was there to attack people rolling out a new cereal at that Safeway, I still believe that the political leaders who promote violent imagery and actions through their rhetoric will bear responsibility for that kind of act - and here's why: Because they are leaders - they are people that the public looks to - they are people that some nine year olds look up to - and they should set an example for the rest of us that is far, far above this bullying and threatening rhetoric that the GOP of this era has tolerated, supported and apparently condoned. Parent
I have stated that the facts show that the GOP has taken a strategy of hate-mongering and violence inciting rhetoric to such a point that I believe that they bear some responsibility in this tragedy. These people are not "innocent". They are deliberate, clever and determined in their strategy. Parent
Didn't you learn any of this basic stuff about the responsibility that goes along with free speech in elementary school like the rest of us did? Parent
As Jane Hamsher wrote very recently,
It's the kind of Lieberman-esque thinking that brought us the culture wars, the scapegoating of video games and a decade's worth of Ice-T demonization. As someone who did not emerge unscathed from that ignoble period in our history, I instinctively feel that the people who trade in those kinds of arguments are demagogues and hustlers.
If you think that is the same thing as yelling fire in a crowded theater where people run fearing for their life, you do not know what the hell you are talking about. Parent
You use the term "held responsible". I have consistently used the term "bear some responsibility". May seem to be a difference without a distinction to you, but all I've called for is an acknowledgement that the over-the-top rhetoric is probably il-conceived and that they dial it WAY back as we go forward. I am not sure why that's so objectionable to you.
The fact is that the strongest and most honorable statement about the out of control rhetoric from the GOP side, thus far, came from an anonymous Republican Senator. Clearly, a person too afraid of party leadership to allow anyone to attach a name to that quotation...
People - everyone - needs to condemn this rhetoric and delegitimize violence as a means to political ends in our society. Parent
Now you are saying:
You use the term "held responsible". I have consistently used the term "bear some responsibility". May seem to be a difference without a distinction to you,
If you are saying the GOP is so responsible Loughner (you remember him, the actual shooter)is irrelevant, then it is a distinction without a difference.
You cannot both say that the GOP bears only some responsibility, but say they are SO responsible that Loughner is essentially irrelevant and a pawn in their scheme. I agree with BTD's post above, rhetoric does not kill people. The right attack from Dems that is both honest and a better political strategy is to try and use this atrocity to get some gun regulations. Parent
If what people are saying that Loughner is a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, do you know what that means? Everything that everyone has said about 9/11 over the last 10 years (all media outlets, both political parties, bloggers, statements from Al Jazeera and Al Queda, two wars, etc.) had no effect on him. Other than Rosie and maybe one small organization pushing that myth, no one and I mean NO ONE is pushing the idea that 9/11 was an inside job. And it had no effect on him. Do you really think that considering everything that has been said and written about 9/11 over a ten year period had no effect on him, that Palin and the republicans over the last 2 years set him off? You are being silly. Parent
Of course, many anti-government types have issues with the flag, and he also includes many other books on his list (Ayn Rand's "We The Living, Animal Farm, 1984, Mein Kampf, etc.). He also was angry about people speaking languages other than English, the failure to use a gold-based currency standard, and ascribes to the "Patriot" conspiracy theory whereby the government uses language and grammar to control us. Yet Buckeye only suggests he's a "far left conspiracy theorist".
Strange. Parent
Zeitgeist is a documentary which asserts among other things 9-11 Truther theories. Parent
Good advice. Of course, the 9/11 Truth Movement is not a "far left conspiracy":
Adherents of the 9/11 Truth movement come from diverse social backgrounds. The movement draws adherents from people of diverse political beliefs including liberals, conservatives, and libertarians.
People like Bob Novak and Fox News's Andrew Napolitano would probably be shocked to hear themselves identified as "far leftists".
OTOH, Laughner's initial interaction with(and resulting anger towards) Giffords dealt with his fascination with the government's use of grammar and words as a means of controlling people. This is a theory pushed by David Wynn Miller, a far right activist from Milwaukee who the ADL has identified as part of the far-right "Redemption/Sovereign Citizen Movement". Parent
Violent eliminationist rhetoric is overwhelmingly from the right.
Peter Daou has a good post on this http://peterdaou.com/2011/01/gabrielle-giffords-and-the-rightwing-hate-machine/ Parent
'A dead Palin is more dangerous than a live one', isn't that quote promoting her life ? It's certainly not putting anyone in the 'cross-hairs'.
Certainly no one of the left of any influence is making any threats, not true on the right, if you want to use blog quotes, at least have the decently to find some on the right, you compared leaders to anonymous comments and then argued they are more of less equal.
Did anyone think this person was a liberal when the news broke, did anyone think the Congresswoman was a conservative before hearing party affiliation ?
Hardly, one camp is getting armed to the tee, calling for revolution and making claims that their way of life is in danger. This is all we heard from the right during the election. Sorry, but this isn't even close to balanced or equal hatred.
Name the last liberal, progressive, or democrat to commit an political atrocity post-Vietnam. Can't do it because we simply do not use guns, bombs, or poisons to make political statements.
Now do the same on the right, too many too mention, so please stop with the equality of hated non-sense.
What you are saying is basically we shouldn't point the fingers at the Klan when a black man ends up in a noose. It's the one or two unstable individuals who actual did the hanging that are too blame. All the N... talk was just talk, the violence isn't their fault, they have zero culpability, none. Ditto for the right hero brigade, no culpability what-so-ever.
Please, anyone with 5 brain cells knows where this hatred is coming from and add it the fact that the right believes every man, woman, and child has a right to own 20 assault rifles and you end up with death, imagine that.
Why do the nutz always end up in the rights camp as well ? If you are unstable, paranoid, or just plain crazy, it is easy to blend in with people who have near zero reasoning skills, who operate on gut instinct rather than logic, who let hate feed their already warped view of the world. It's a breeding palace for violence. Parent
The right, last year I would put the number around 50, add in OKC, and in the past 40 years the right can claim about 1000 dead from political causes.
The left, I can't think of one instance, not they haven't happeded, but I can't think of one. Keep in mind I am speaking of political acts, not the Kinkley kind of act that wasn't political.
Quotes, don't bother, I can out quote you by a factor of 100 using Rush alone, add in Fox, and any quote you find will be out done by a factor of 1000. These are predominate voices in the R party, not guest hosts on MSNBC.
Never mind the fact the left doesn't hoard guns, making any lunatic on the left hell bend on murder pretty much impotent. Parent
Consider that if most of the righties are brought in line, the lefties who are out of line will be more visible. And again, recall (or read about) the backlash that can set back a country, a party, for a long time. Parent
This era would be one where we would have to look to historical examples of extreme rightist movements - and to be more accurate we'd have to look to those historical examples of what happens when there was a flourishing and organized extreme militant rightist movement. Parent
Timothy Horrigan who had to resign over this one. He did apologize and resign to his credit.
Progressive site OEN wishing Limbaugh would die and compared it to predator drones in Pakistan.
Olberman last Saturday night even criticized himself along side his criticism of the right.
Dylan Ratigan with cartoonist Ted Rall. I like the way this post from the Columbia Journalism Review put this:
If this were on Fox News, the media would be blowing a fuse. It better get working on this one. If it's suspension-worthy for an obiously left-wing host to give campaign donations to politicians, what is it when one quasi-endorses considering overthrowing the government via the gun?... Fox News's insane Glenn Bleck, while he's gone way, way overboard with violent imagery and rhetoric, at least hasn't gotten quite that explicit. Leaving aside the dubious wisdom of even inviting on your program somebody advocating considering violence, if you're going to do so, you at least need to go adversarial with them (I'm thinking old-school Phil Donahue show-how-they're-nuts style). But this [was} as friendly as interviews get...
Fox News's insane Glenn Bleck, while he's gone way, way overboard with violent imagery and rhetoric, at least hasn't gotten quite that explicit.
Leaving aside the dubious wisdom of even inviting on your program somebody advocating considering violence, if you're going to do so, you at least need to go adversarial with them (I'm thinking old-school Phil Donahue show-how-they're-nuts style). But this [was} as friendly as interviews get...
The NH Democratic candidate and the NH state rep. who made the comments about Palin were roundly criticized for their comments - both apologized and the state rep resigned. Compare that to the reaction from the right, where Palin - a national party leader - was defended and even lauded by the right for her comments.
As for Ratigan, I have no idea why anyone would think he's a liberal (or even a Democrat).
Comments from websites are just silly. It would take about 10 seconds on Google to find faaaaaar more offensive/threatening comments on right-wing websites - even those widely considered mainstream conservative leaders (Malkin, Coulter, Limbaugh, etc.). Parent
Who are you kidding besides yourself? You've dredged up two people nobody ever heard of and an obscure blog as a counterweight to Sarah Palin and a whole mess of GOP politicians and candidates?
Do you really believe this yourself? You can't possibly. Parent
Palin?
Not so much. Vitriolic rhetoric on the right is accepted as mainstream and, in fact, is often rewarded.
No idea why Ratigan is thrown in there. Parent
Krugman and Rep. Chris Van Hollengetting called out for for the same thing.
The rhetoric has been used on both sides. Bad for everyone and the country. Parent
Again, the rhetoric has been growing more and more nasty and it is not good. The vulgar attacks against GWB are just as vile as anything ever seen.
I despise it from both sides. So, don't put words into my mouth or attribute any such nonsense to me. Parent
As for one "side" being capable of orchestrating and the other not capable of organizing a d*mn thing, well, that has been said about Democrats/the Left before here. So those few, several, many, whichever, are individually guilty of contributing to the vitriolic culture. Being disorganized does not excuse other behaviors nor persuade me to think any better of them. Parent
And it's doubtful "we" would be censored, because "they" would still want to be able to run their mouths. Parent
And if, as I suspect, they are links to blogs then Big Woo. They neither have a megaphone into the US (ala Glen Beck or R Limbaugh), nor hold public office.
If they're legit links then post them yourself. Parent
The right has been doing this eliminationist rhetoric since the 90's. Do you remember the '92 GOP convention and how full of "they" it was and how "evil" "they" are. The two Pats speaking? And then we have the conservative militia movement in the 90's and now the tea party who by the way in a poll showed that many, many of them believe that violence and murder is the only way to go.
This is what happens when movements collapse. They turn to terrorism as a means and the collapse of the current conservative movement has just devolved into terrorism. Parent
she is so full of spitting rage that she even outspat Tweety on his own shown & he called her out for her rageaholic stupidity on the air
even the righties had to concede that MM was not ready for prime time
but let's all listen respectfully to what Michelle Malkin has to say about "the left" Parent
As for posting private information on a website for political agendas, she is not alone as it has been done on the left.
The "we are innocent" mantra from the left is ringing hollow.
Again, neither side has the high ground on the rhetoric and it is hurting the country. Parent
can't be dismissed based on a dislike of the source
i dismiss MM because she is a vicious rightwing rageaholic tool
& for that i dislike her, yes - very much indeed
but i dismiss her because she has made herself a highly impeachable "source"
you are quick to lecture us that we are commenting on a lefty legal blog - why are you attempting to bolster your arguments with rabid rightwing sources?
perhaps because you are making what are fundamentally rabid rightwing arguments?
yes i think so
if what you are trying to say is that there are people on the left whose rhetoric goes somewhat over the top, sure - it's a banal enough argument scarcely requiring multiple heated exchanges on this blog
but there is not an INSTITUTIONALIZED sanctioning of antigovernmental violence on the left, unlike what we have with extremist rightwing elements that have successfully made deep inroads into the GOP
imo, you are becoming a troll on this thread Parent
I don't care if "it has been done on the left". And I don't need your examples -- phony OR legit. It's wrong no matter who does it.
As for "dislike of a source", I know you know the difference between a Democratic leader and some random website. I know you know the difference between any national figure (such as Beck or Limbaugh) and some random website.
It is also apparent that you want to hide behind your pretended ignorance so that you can continue to make your sanctimonious "both sides do it" BS.
By drawing such false equivalences, you, BTAL -- you specifically -- are one of the many, many individuals that give political leaders and national figures permission to continue spewing hate. Parent
Do as I say and not as I do there for all to see in those two examples. No false equivalences drawn. Parent
I will agree with Thiessen that Moulitsas should not have used targeting terminology. And I will also agree with Thiessen that Moulitsas' actions were as irresponsible as those of Palin-just as soon as he shows me that Moulitsas also said something as provocative as "Don't retreat-reload", that he gets his jollies shooting defenseless animals from a helicopter and that he has provided a videotaped message of support for a lunatic fringe group that advocates violence and secession. The sickness in Washington that would try to paint equivalence between Moulitsas and Palin in terms of provocation to violence is a big reason why our political landscape has become completely devoid of consequences for action. As long as hacks like Thiesssen are out there painting false equivalences between people as diametrically opposite as Markos Moulitsas and Sarah Palin, Palin will be able to get away with fomenting violence and Thiessen's former associates will never face prosecution for torture.
Click Me Parent
And all commenters should avoid insults to other commenters and name-calling and personal attacks on anyone. Parent
Sorry, you cannot even be serious that there is some gigantic war between left and right in this country. There is no left in this country, period, nothing even remotely close to the organied anger on the right.
That you cannot even be honest and say, yes, it's pretty obvious that the far right engages in this rhetoric far more than anything that could be identified with the left, but instead you, in effect, lie like a rug.
Can't respect it, can't buy it, take it and shove it. Parent
Remember when you had to provide equal time for opposing political views?
Those were the good old days... Parent
There is simply no comparison between the Republicans and Democrats when it comes to the vitriol and violent undertone of rhetoric.
If you think it's even remotely comparable you've fallen down a rabbit hole.
This allusion to violence comes from the political right and the GOP has done little to nothing to rein in their sick supporters. They get back to the veiled suggestions of violence again after this terrible tragedy fades from public memory.
A few decades ago I remember my family doctor (a Republican as most doctors were at the time) suggesting that violent acts should have been used to stop FDR. Parent
Not much there, and that was 40 yrs ago.
What else?
The Far Left today is mighty small, and most aren't running for office calling for Second Amendment "remedies" against gov't officials who disagree with their extremist views. Parent
"The movement against the Vietnam War reveals the double standard of government...It was a remarkably nonviolent movement. There was one instance, so rare that it must be noted, where antiwar protesters in Madison, Wisconsin, planted a bomb in a military research building, timed to go off in the middle of the night, when no one would be in the building. But one man was working there, and he was killed." - pg. 143 of Declarations of Independence
Hardly comparable. Parent
There were many bombings, not all leading to deaths, but there also were other deaths.
And the children of Robert Fassnacht, adults now, grew up without a father, their mother without a husband, in Madison if we want to tally victims by the numbers. Parent
This is nonsense and really quite absurd revisionist history. Parent
BTW - See how big you can make the list! "Dog grew up without a master, neighbors without a neighbor, colleagues without a co-worker ..."
BBTW - Just so you're clear - not trivializing the death of Robert Fassnacht at all. Just trying to clarify to make apple-to-apple comparisons. If we're going to include family members of right-wing extremists (i.e. Oklahoma bombing victims, murdered abortion providers, homophobic murders, etc.), I'm gonna need a calculator. Parent
I am aware only of a few small bombs set by a tiny handful of people in a faction of the Weather Underground-- who were roundly and thoroughly condemned for it by the entire rest of the left and the anti-war movement. A bomb at a police station did kill one officer and blind another, but it was never clear whether that was a WU action or not. Then that handful of people cidentally blew themselves up while they were making a bomb, and that was the end of it. Parent
You do know, right, that "revolution" is a term used quite commonly in this country, as in, oh, for instance, the "Republican revolution."
I've certainly seen zippo to the effect that Ratigan (who's hardly a lefty, btw, or probably even a Democrat) has advocated violence of any sort. Parent
But whatever. Parent
Who to primary? Well, I'd argue that we can narrow the target list by looking at those Democrats who sold out the Constitution last week. I've bolded members of the Blue Dogs for added emphasis [Giffords is bolded] Not all of these people will get or even deserve primaries, but this vote certainly puts a bulls eye on their district.
Not all of these people will get or even deserve primaries, but this vote certainly puts a bulls eye on their district.
Markos has also said recently Gifford was "Dead to him" for voting against Pelosi for speaker. How different is that? Markos is no more responsible for what happened as I am. We have had Democrats talk about wishing Palin was dead, wishing she was on the Alaskan plane that killed Senator Stephens, wishing Limbaugh would die. On MSNBC, Dylan Ratigan spoke approvingly of violent revolution stating "Are things in our country so bad that it might actually be time for a revolution? The answer is obviously yes. The only question is how to do it." I stongly dislike most of what the right stands for and how they say it, but we could play this game both ways.
I agree we need to learn more about Loughner, but from what I am hearing, he had been targeting Gifford since 2007, that if anything sent him over the brink to act out on it would have been getting expelled from Pima Community college more than anything else, that every kid that described Loughner said he is a far-left liberal, he was a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, etc.
I do not know if any of this about Loughner is true or not, we need to learn more. But we should not be rushing to judge anyone responsible for this other than Loughner. Parent
Quantity and tone matters. On those measurements, you cannot make any comparison between the madness on the the right and anything on the imaginary left.
Crazy.
Why are you so afraid to call out the right here? There IS a war on in this country, it is a class war, and it is raging, and it's not going to stop as long as good people stay silent. Parent
= Violence? "Both sides do it" Parent
Sometimes it happens. Someone tried to kill Reagan to impress Jodie Foster for crying out loud. Parent
There have been a number of incidents since Obama's taken office. (Washington Monthly) A guy who is a 9/11 conspiracy theorist is distrustful of the government. Who's saying that we should distrust the government, and in fact, maybe even, nudge nudge, take them out? The GOP. They encourage this behavior. Parent
What we have here is an attempted assassination of a politician by an insane crank at a political event, in a state where the political discourse has been an unrelenting howl of eliminationist rhetoric and characterization of anyone to the left of Genghis Khan as a traitor and enemy of the state...and now, when six (including a nine year old girl) lie dead and another fourteen are wounded, now suddenly we're concerned that it is rude and politicizing a tragedy to point out that the right wing has produced a toxic atmosphere that pollutes our politics with hatred and the rhetoric of violence?
[PZ] Parent
The idea to kill a Democratic Congressperson did not come from the right.
And yet the right talks about this a LOT. (Beck, Bachmann, Palin...) Parent
Look Ohio, I don't think what they are doing is illegal and I don't think the Constitution should be changed.
I am saying they bear some responsibility with their speech, that's it. You know it, I know it, they know, but no one will admit it because when you really think about it, that's all they have, without it they are ordinary, and no pays for ordinary.
If I tell a suicidal person they are right and they have nothing to live for am I legally responsible for their death, no, but morally there is some responsibility.
Telling people lies about death panels, internment camps, socialism, and on and on is going to make people angry, damn angry. Telling them D's are at fault gives them an enemy, it is really that far fetched to think some unstable people might take it a step further, after all their very being is at stake, according to some.
Why can't they just turn it down a notch and quit telling the masses we want to end grannies life early or that we are going to round them into internment camps, or that we are doing what the Nazis did ? All lies made-up for one purpose to anger people into hating them. Parent
Markos has also said recently Gifford was "Dead to him" for voting against Pelosi for speaker. How different is that?
The remark "dead to me" is not a threat or suggestion of violence.
It means that the person in question is no longer considered part of your life. Parent
It's a matter of scale. The GOP has been ginning up the hate since Obama's been in office. Parent
This is pure non-sense, name a lefty who has committed political murder in the last 40 years, then name the righties. I would be surprised if you could name one lefty, and the righties, well that list is going to be long and the dead people, many. Parent
BTW, in case you forgot, someone tried to assassinate Ronald Reagan. Did the uber lunatic Hinkley get pushed over the edge from the hate spewed at Reagan by the left? Were they responsible? Was Jodie Foster responsible because he was trying to impress her? She played a child prostitute in a film where De Niro plots to assassinate a President. Let's not let her or Deniro act anymore or make any more movies about Presidential assissination. What nonsense. Parent
Let's not let her or Deniro act anymore or make any more movies about Presidential assissination.
assissination - isn't that when an assissin shoots a magic lavender laser beam & turns an elected official gay? Parent
Attacking govt for 'grammar' is faaaaaar-right conspiracy. Parent
And you also have not been reading anywhere that Loughner had been "targeting" Giffords since 2007. You've read that he conceived a dislike for her in 2007, but that's hardly equivalent to plotting an assassination.
Secondly, please provide a link to the "Democrats" who have said publicly they wished Palin was dead. (I won't even require it be Democrats with as gigantic a public platform as Palin.) Please also provide a link or two to Democrats who publicly wished she'd been on the Stevens plane. Ditto Democrats publicly proclaiming they wished Limbaugh would die.
Thank you. Parent
Furthermore, I have no idea who Jay Newton-Small is. Parent
the knee-jerk reaction among many "progressives" to blame Sarah Palin is unattractive, tainted as it is w/"progressive" misogyny - but that does not mean that these "progressives" are wrong in this case about the influence that Sarah Palin clearly & deliberately wields Parent
How big a lunatic do you have to be to watch two giant airliners packed with jet fuel slam into buildings on live TV, igniting a massive inferno that burned for two hours, and then think 'well, if you believe that was the cause...
If he believed that, and has been planning this since 2007, then the newfangled "culture of hate" you are wringing your hands about had nothing to do with this. Parent
i pointed to a very recent example of a rightwing politician - in this case a Tea Party candidate for political office who happened to be Giffords' opponent - using the language & imagery of gun violence & contributing to a particular atmosphere
he has a 1st amendment right to do that, & many would say that the alleged shooter has a 2nd amendment right to carry a gun
so be it
now if you want to argue that there is ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION between these 2 individuals exercising their 1st & 2nd amendment rights, don't let anyone stop you
if you want to argue that Kelly's ad had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do w/an individual gun nut choosing to take an automatic weapon to a place where he knew that a particular elected official would be present, it's still a free country (sort of)
i guess you can only assume that it's just a TOTAL coincidence that this particular gun nut unloaded on a CONGRESSWOMAN he has held a grudge against for several years
because as we all know, gun nuts are always coincidentally attempting to assassinate elected officials - it's the darnednest thing
& of course nothing in the poisonous rhetorical atmosphere fomented by the rightwing could possibly have anything to do with that Parent
i guess you can only assume that it's just a TOTAL coincidence that this particular gun nut unloaded on a CONGRESSWOMAN he has held a grudge against for several years because as we all know, gun nuts are always coincidentally attempting to assassinate elected officials - it's the darnednest thing
prove my point? Parent
Duh. Parent
If you want to keep score it's a blowout. Parent
"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun! Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl!"
Barack Obama, Philadelphia, June 2008 Parent
Not as far as I'm concerned. Parent
no comparison
nice try though Parent
And dismissing the quote leads you back to the argument that Dems are wimpy, which is not a winner, either.
Nice try, though. Parent
to address the point you were making earlier, Rush has already tried the gambit of using this quote against Obama - pathetic
moreover, note that Obama said this in Philadelphia, in June 2008 - before the traditional start of the presidential campaigns but after the PA primary, which you will recall Obama lost, big time
one reason why Obama lost in PA is that the residents of that state correctly perceived him to be an elitist candidate in the mold of John Kerry
Obama knew this
Obama had heard the criticisms of Kerry in 2004 & of Dems in general for "bringing a knife to a gunfight"
that is the context of Obama's remark
but go ahead & join Rush Limbaugh in twisting it around
pretty soon you'll be able to make the shooting of Cong. Giffords all Obama's fault Parent
And ridiculous if you think that the winning argument for a pol is that it had to be done to pander, to attempt to win. I had forgotten that Obama lost that primary, but thanks for reminding me how futile were his too-obvious attempts to sound non-elitist.
By the way, I had that quote from the Facebook page of a friend, a liberal and an African American who is encouraging a much better discussion than this one. When Facebook beats TalkLeft at intelligent discourse, that's just sad for this blog. Parent
By the way, I had that quote from the Facebook page of a friend, a liberal and an African American
i guess this proves that at least one liberal African American is no more knowledgeable than you are about the context of Obama's remark
so? Parent
The terrorist attack on Congresswoman Giffords and her entourage raises some interesting questions of culpability since the laws governing terrorism have been made so elastic that almost anyone can be charged for almost anything. Ali Hamza Ahmad Suliman al Bahlul, a citizen of Yemen currently held in the United States Guantanamo Bay detention camps, was convicted in November 2008 of performing media relations (making videos) for Osama bin Laden and sentenced to life imprisonment after a commission of 9 military officers deliberated for less than an hour. One also recalls that bin Laden;'s driver was also imprisoned at Guantanamo. Both men were charged with providing material support to a terrorist. Based on that precedent, it is clear that Sarah Palin and the others that advocated terroristic acts in the guise of exercising their 2nd Amendment rights and who have used gun metaphors in their campaigning have likewise provided Material Support for Terrorism. Sarahpac website features a map of the United States with enemies listed and shown geographically, with a seen-through-a-gunsite symbol highlighting their location on the US map. Giffords is one of the targets. Palin or her handlers appear to be aware of the problem they have created as she is reported to be erasing all references to guns, gunsights, targeting, and shooting from her website as well as expressions like "no retreat-reload". Will Mrs. Palin be charged under the Military Commissions Act or is it restricted only to brown people originating somewhere east of Suez?
Based on that precedent, it is clear that Sarah Palin and the others that advocated terroristic acts in the guise of exercising their 2nd Amendment rights and who have used gun metaphors in their campaigning have likewise provided Material Support for Terrorism. Sarahpac website features a map of the United States with enemies listed and shown geographically, with a seen-through-a-gunsite symbol highlighting their location on the US map. Giffords is one of the targets. Palin or her handlers appear to be aware of the problem they have created as she is reported to be erasing all references to guns, gunsights, targeting, and shooting from her website as well as expressions like "no retreat-reload".
Will Mrs. Palin be charged under the Military Commissions Act or is it restricted only to brown people originating somewhere east of Suez?
Good question for those who support military commissions but only for the Muslims and the brown people.
But I can't get down with blaming anybody but the homicidal maniac...that's going too far.
But you gotta believe change and redemption is possible...the phonies getting paid mad bank to spread hate will probably not change, but I would hope beyond hope, if nothing else, the 9 year old girl murdered would pull someone on the fringe off the violent edge and make them see the evil error in it. It can happen. Parent
Yeah I hope change is possible....but honestly if we couldn't get serious change after Columbine then I kind of despair it is coming now. Violent rhetoric has become so normalized since then...
I'm in Pittsburgh and we've had a couple of these in recent years - Rishard Poplowski who was afraid Obama would take away his AK47, and killed 3 cops outside his house after his Mom called 911...
Anothe nutcase who hated women walked in to a fitness club and killed 3 women before killing himself...
There was a lot of solidarity in Pgh after both of these incidents. People standing along the highway to salute the cops' funeral processions and candlelight vigils for the women and so on...
It always seems we feel most like a supportive community 'after' tragedies. Not day to day as the norm.
Sigh. Parent
Of course, that would take reflection, empathy, shame, and other related emotions.... Parent
I don't know man...I don't worry about the hate mongers, who has time...but I do get worried when people getting to talking about "doing something about it" beyond spreading a better message, that's bad news for free speech, free expression, and freedom in general imo. Particularly before we know/learn more of the murderer and his motivations. Nature of today's media I guess...but it turns me off. The victims aren't even buried yet for goodness sake. Parent
Definitely sounds like a screw loose here, and I don't feel good about blaming others because a guy with a screw loose took their ball and ran with it...but I would hope they are questioning themselves and why their message is so palatable to violent loons.
Maybe I give the conscience of others too much credit because mine has a loud speaking voice...I don't know.
Parent
Just guessin'... Parent
Yet CNN brings on an "expert" who declaims that the schools and campuses are to blame, the teachers and instructors and profs are to blame, for not pushing such students into mental health treatment. And this expert is a psychiatrist. He clearly knows nothing about commitment laws, nor about the realities of litigious life in education (and much else) today.
And yes, only when a Youtube video endangered the egos of administrators at the community college did they do anything. What else could have been the reason? Some fool making a video that says that campuses are unconstitutional is a problem, but students and instructors and others in danger is not. Got it. Parent
I posed the question above, name a political homicidal maniac post-Vietnam from the left, then from the right.
Is no one to blame that their philosophies attract, cultivate, and arm these lunatics giving them validation to their already warped views ? Parent
Some of the hardcore right-wing ideology and teaching sure ain't helping...I get it. And we should condemn violent rhetoric at every turn...but at the end of the day it is just rhetoric, and I can't blame somebody who writes an op-ed or appears as a talking head on the boob-tube or hosts a radio show for mass murder, nor do I support limiting the free speech rights of those who peddle in the violent rhetoric or other legislative "remedies".
All we can do is spread a message of love farther and wider and cross our fingers that love conquers hate more often than hate conquers love...what else can ya do that won't make things worse? More laws, more rules, more prison time will only harden hearts further. Parent
That being said I don't believe what they do is illegal. Shameful, definitely. And I certainly don't want any reworking of the Constitution.
My point was more that they have to take some responsibility. They use lies and over-the-top rhetoric to incite anger, is it really a leap to imagine that some of those angry people might not know when to stop.
What they are doing is wrong, but not illegal and I wouldn't want to it to be. Ideally I wish that they would tone it down in hopes that they next deranged lunatic doesn't decide we (liberals) are all the enemy who are going turn the USA into communist Russia or Nazi Germany. Parent
I just don't think that is how you try to prevent these awful senseless killings...you bring a better message and hope our better nature wins out, imko. Parent
Plus a lot of people on the left in 1970 (southern democrats) are now on the right, so it seemed like a good cut-off date. Parent
Too much hate out there. Although discrimination has been controlled by the civil rights bills that does not take the hate out of those that want to discriminate. The civil rights law just make discrimination illegal but it does not erase it out of peoples minds or thinking.
Ironically, in many ways, Obama's inability to stand and fight for ANYthing, his inability to hold corporate crime accountable for the economic destruction is has wrought, his complete cowardice in the face of actual politics, he legitimizes the radical right.
He doesn't even want the job, IMO, he just wanted to title. It was about getting there for him, not doing something when he did. Parent
And, what do we expect, really, from a society where people pay money to go sit in arenas or stadiums and watch people go after each other, where we cheer the hard hit, clap for the sack that slams the QB to the ground, roar for the right cross to the jaw? What do we expect from a society where, if you can't actually fight a real war, you can engage in a virtual one? Or, where upstanding citizens while away their free time playing shoot-`em-up on their game systems?
We speed on the highways, slalom around the slow cars, scream at those who don't get out of our way, and never know if the person enraged at being cut-off will retaliate.
We scream at "customer service" reps on the phone, we think whatever we want we have to have RIGHT NOW or we'll have to start kicking us some ass. Hurry, hurry, hurry. Rush, rush, rush. Try to be in six places at once and doing four things at a time, we are all closer to the edge of implosion and explosion than most of us realize.
We come to accept that it's okay for people to live like dogs on the street, and then clutch our pearls when they don't seem to be able to treat others humanely.
Lose a job, lose a house, lose a spouse, lose your mind. Find out "the system" isn't interested in helping you? Play by the rules and still get the short end of the stick? We're all on simmer, and it doesn't take much to reach "boil."
Throw in some mental illness and all bets are off.
It isn't just that we live in a violent society, we live in one that seems increasingly unfeeling and uncaring and blind to those who need help.
More gun laws will be about as helpful as more band-aids on a hemorrhage. How about making sure people have enough to eat, clean clothes to wear, a safe place to call home, an education, job training, mental and physical health care - not insurance, but actual care?
Oh, wait, that would be just too, too radical to even consider, because in this United States, if you can't do it on your own, you don't deserve it.
More gun laws will be about as helpful as more band-aids on a hemorrhage.
How about making sure people have enough to eat, clean clothes to wear, a safe place to call home, an education, job training, mental and physical health care - not insurance, but actual care?
This is not mutually exclusive with stricter gun laws. Parent
State laws, federal laws, local laws - we're all over the place, aren't we?
And I agree that taking better care of people does not have to exclude laws that better protect them from others, but it just seems to me that we don't do a very good job of enforcing the laws we already have, where we have them; passing new ones always makes people feel better, like they're doing something - until the next major incident, and then it starts all over again. Parent
I was totally out of the loop on the Arizona shootings in real time, and in trying to get up to speed, feel like I'm reacting to the reactions more than I am reacting to the incident itself. All this talk about who said what and which rhetoric is worse and who's condoning it and who's inciting it seems, in some ways, just so pointless to me.
Like I said, people are killing each other, hurting each other, every day, and it gets reported so matter-of-factly that it takes something bigger, with more "important" people involved, for it to make an impression on people.
I live north of Baltimore, and spend every workday in the downtown area - the nice part of town where the tourists go. The local news generally leads with the latest killing/stabbing/shooting/incident of child or domestic abuse/drug raid/house fire/carbon monoxide poisoning - unless there is snow in the forecast, of course, in which case, they go into full Doomsday mode.
It's probably the same everywhere, to some extent, but I guess that's why I'm sort of annoyed at how important it is to people to blame this latest tragedy on a particular flavor of politics, as if being able to do so actually solves anything.
It doesn't.
Oh, here I go again...maybe I will pop a Hall's and a couple Advil and spare you the rant... Parent
There's no lack of good writing on this. Parent
i see 2 kinds of misunderstanding on this thread
1, that this was simply the act of a "lone gunman" & should not be "politicized"
2, that it was a political act but "the left does it too"
there is also a small subset of commments correctly, imo, pointing out that the shooter is entitled to presumption of innocence & that we do not know enough about the shooter's motives for anyone, least of all a court of law, to determine yet why Cong. Giffords was a target Parent
Answer: it isn't, really.
Why is it more important or more meaningful that a political figure was possibly targeted than that ordinary people take other ordinary people's lives into their hands every single day?
And let's say, for the sake of argument, that if it is far more meaningful to try to kill political figures, what, exactly, does pointing the finger at one end of the political spectrum do for the whole thing?
Nothing. Or at least nothing constructive. Are you going to stop people from saying stupid things? I kind of doubt it. Can you guarantee that something that sounds innocuous to 99% of people won't sound incendiary to someone with mental problems or anger issues, or some such thing? No, you can't.
Of course people should be more responsible in what they say, what they do, how they act, and be willing to be accountable for themselves. I'm frankly sick of the constant goading that goes on, in the media especially, by people who do it for one reason and one reason only: ratings, which means money. Which is why I don't watch a lot of media anymore, because it sickens me to see how brazenly they try to manipulate people.
And it's why, once I heard about the incident, I chose not to tune in to see a parade of serious-faced talking heads trying their hardest not to look too thrilled that they had a major tragedy to report on, because that's what these things always become.
Here's the thing, though: if this man is as troubled as it appears he may be, the most rational political discussion you could have would be about the politics of mental health; the rest of it is just noise. Parent
So what? Why is a possible attempt (none / 0) (#175) by Anne on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 03:10:26 PM EST at political assassination more important or more deserving of attention than the killing and injuring of ordinary people by other ordinary people that takes place every day, day after day, often at the hands of people they know?
If you want to discuss the media angle of all this, fine, but there is a lot more to this than the media angle. If I have to explain to you why political assassinations are deserving of attention, well, I can't, because...I'm speechless. Parent
It may well be meant to be an attack on the nation - please don't think I don't get that, I do - but my point was that maybe if we spent more time addressing the problems down here at the ordinary people level, others would not feel compelled to try to take out political figures to draw attention to whatever their cause is.
I think you've likely been reading my comments long enough to know that I am neither unintelligent nor ignorant nor cavalier; I found it jarring to see the attention the Arizona shootings are getting juxtaposed against the ho-hum way in which we pretty much treat the day-after-day-after-day violence that takes place all across this nation, triggered by a long list of things, with rhetoric being pretty far down the list behind poverty, lack of education, poor mental health, homelessness, drug use, physical and/or mental abuse, domestic problems, job loss, home loss and so on.
Sure, what some politician said might trigger someone to action, but if every politician immediately became a disciple of Miss Manners, I doubt there would be a noticeable decline in day-to-day violence, even if their own hides might be more secure.
We are looking at this from different angles, and while I understand why you think this is so important, I'm not sure you understand that I also think it's important, but for different reasons. We're not improving people's lives anymore, and until we realize that we should be, there isn't going to be much lessening of anger in this country. Parent
There is in fact good reason to draw attention to this issue. You seem to be arguing the average person is frustrated, so we need to fix that to prevent this kind of thing happening. I agree with that (it is a sociological argument, as are the arguments that this is related to right wing violence, directly or indirectly). Still, I think that's a far more abstract stretch than saying "I bet if we toned down rhetoric against Democrats/liberals [like the late Dr. Tiller] right-wingers won't kill Democrats/liberals." There is so much documentation out there about right wing extremism in the age of Obama (list here). I just think you can't dismiss it out of hand. Parent
It is the context. Political assassination threatens society's stability...our government and ourselves. That is the perception historically in this country and in other countries. A merger of reality and symbolism, perhaps. In many ways, it may be the most pronounced version of what has beome known as a hate crime.
Why does the threat reverberate and cut so deep? I don't know. Maybe it is the harshest chilling effect to realize that those who are elected to represent us, to be our government, can so easily be killed or shot. Maybe it reaches back to tribes, clans, the gathering together for protection. It may be something as fundamental as Maslow's scale (overall physical security need.) I do know this: The repercussions are quick, personal, and may even be longlasting. As always, its the "longlasting" possibility thats up-in-the-air. Parent
This poor Congresswoman Giffords and the other victims could have been easily been the cool kids at school, the school board, the government, the other...whoever is the font of rage for the violent madmen this society/modern world helps produce...I don't know. Parent
"I have concerns about some of the language that is being used because i saw this myself in the late 70s in San Francisco, this kind of rhetoric. ... It created a climate in which violence took place. ... I wish we would all curb our enthusiasm in some of the statements and understand that some of the ears that it is falling on are not a balanced as the person making the statements may assume."
Hate becomes a latent trait with hidden symbols and codes so as to gain and maintain power. The trait may begin as a part but unchecked can capture the whole. Inflammatory rhetoric is spewed not apart from the movement, but as a part of it. And, not by isolated intemperate statements of individual adherents, but as an accumulated polemic and culture where there are no political opponents, just enemies.
Such demagoguery is accepted and legitimized. And, it is not unfathomable for the emotionally labile to latch onto fragments of the hate manifesto and transfer them into behavior they believe was being called for and just needed a hero to carry them out. Parent
My image is of a powerful segment (the political structure) snared in an eddy into Dante's inferno. (Maybe over-the-top in terms of my personal reaction.) To explore a bit how this happens and useful steps to de-escalate growing political threats would be helpful. Where do you think the system entered that "institutionalization of hate" level or has it?
Sidenote: Two de-escalation type items from today include (1) TPM's list of "refrain from" phrasing suggestions & (2) David Sirota's repeated apology on behalf of himself and the media industry for the provocative push of recent years. (While Sirota certainly has never urged nor condoned violence, when he took a step on his morning radio program to say that responsibility for provocation can be deeper than the obvious, I gulped and stopped and listened. He didn't need to apologize for any particular provocation of which I am aware; yet, he took a simple and powerful deescalation step.) Parent
The institutionalization of hate can be noted, in my view, when there is no internal correctives or controls. No responsible counter voices, either out of fear or because of agreement.
While not in the same category, an illustration is the condemnation of the liberal Move On.org by not only Republicans (as you would expect), but many Democrats, including its leadership, for the full page NYT ad referring to "General Petraeus or General Betray Us." Or, the near censure and tearful apology of Congressman Pete Stark for his remark that President Bush enjoys troop deaths. The point being that such remarks may be made by individuals, but they are not acceptable or legitimized.
By contrast, Sharron Angle's curious, at the least, "Second Amendment" comment was not even questioned as to what she meant by it. Indeed, she received support from leaders of her party. The golden rule, subsequently, gets turned on its head and the followers feel acceptance do unto others what we would not want done to ourselves. Parent
We have no idea why this maniac did what he did and far too many on this site, in the media and in the blogoshpere appear all to ready to use this tragic event to justify their political feelings.
It could be a complex conspiracy theory or as simple as a public event he could take advantage of.
I do find it ironic that the rush to judgement on this shooting is a complete if not perfect 180 from the reaction to the Ft. Hood shootings.
In that case the "left" bent over backwards to deny an obvious motive. In this case they seem to be doing the same to force one onto the shooter.
He will wake up, he will go to jail and we will one day learn his motives.
Till then chill out.
It is a tragedy. Just like the guy who shot up the TLC building was a tragedy, just like Ft. Hood was a tragedy and just like Columbine and a whole host of school shootings where tragedies.
Sometimes tragedies are just that, tragedies. If we really want them to stop we will have to do a whole lot more then muzzle right wing talking heads.
But you already knew that.