home

When You Elect Fools For Governor

As Florida did last year, This happens:

Gov. Rick Scott announced Wednesday that he's rejecting federal funding for high-speed rail. "I'm not comfortable this is a project we should be doing," Scott said at a hastily called news conference in Tallahassee after a phone conversation with U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. [. . .] Scott said he was not sure high-speed rail would bring taxpayers a return on their investment and he felt money would be better spent on state highway and seaport improvements.

The problem for Scott is the money is not his to decide how to use. It is the federal government's money and they will use it elsewhere. Florida Republicans and Democrats are not happy:

U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., was called by Scott in the morning, and offered "vigorous" argument against the governor's decision. "This is eating our seed corn," Nelson said after the call. "It's turning down 24,000 jobs, when we badly need them."

U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, chairs the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee. In a statement he said, "This is a huge setback for the state of Florida, our transportation, economic development, and important tourism industry. I have urged the governor to reconsider going forward and allow the private sector to assume the risk and any future costs for the project. I made this appeal to the governor this morning. With the federal government assuming 90 percent of the cost of the project, I am disappointed the private sector will not have an opportunity to even offer innovative proposals to help finance the balance of the costs and to construct and operate this system."

This new phenomenon of turning down federal money seems to be the latest fad for Republican governors. Really weird. Anyway, the money has been appropriated already and I assume will go to states where they will take it gladly.

The price for electing fools as governor seems higher than for other offices.

Speaking for me only

< Feingold Forms "Progressives United" | Young Somali Pirate Sentenced to 34 Years >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    OH gov is also a fool and has done both of the (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by sallywally on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 05:54:34 PM EST
    things done by FL and WI governors. Kasich turned down the high-speed rail and has threatened the state workers, university faculty, firefighters, police, etc. regarding negotiating salaries and getting the pensions we worked for - 25 years with my whatever to the grindstone at Ohio State Univ. and my pension is quite low.

    Kasich is an unspeakable jerk.

    Spend the money instead on the bullet train (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 06:56:49 PM EST
    between Disneyland and Las Vegas....

    Bobby Jindal showed himself to be a complete moron when he tried to make fun of Las Vegas and Disneyland, and a train linking the two.....Such a train would be a huge boost.

    Does Jindal not understand how much money Las Vegas and Disneyland make?  How many people they employ?.....  

    Another fool whose ideology blinds them to basic economic facts....(And I never knew that Republicans held a grudge against Vegas and Disneyland.)

    Getting to Vegas is a pain now.  If you drive, (which I used to do in 3 hours assuming no cops), it can take a long, long time.  You can end up in a traffic jam, in a dead stop for long periods of time, in the middle of the desert.

    A bullet train to Vegas would make round trips the same night a snap....What a boon to Vegas.  

    heh (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:00:35 AM EST
    on the subject of fools for governors I present a cleaned up version of a comment found on another blog especially for the dems=republicans chorus line:

    I find myself strangely bereft of sympathy for family and friends in Texas who are suddenly freaking out because they're eliminating art/foreign language departments at schools; closing down the trendy elementary schools in Austin; cutting six weeks off the school calendars and going to four day a week classes. Oh, and they haven't repaved IH-35 in years.

    WHAT THE %&$# DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN IF YOU KEPT VOTING FOR THE REPUBLICANS YOU %$#&ING IDIOTS!!!

    Even my Dem friends - many of whom are involved in politics and campaigns - traditionally have viewed the GOPers' rhetoric as a joke or not serious.

    THEY'RE SERIOUS!

    Sorry, I just really can't gnash my teeth over the fact that friend's kids are going to get sh!ttier educations and/or that family members are losing their teaching jobs. Maybe you should have gotten off your fat a$$ and bothered to vote!

    /get off my lawn



    Well (none / 0) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 01:43:50 PM EST
    I could say the same thing about GA too. Maybe GA & FL can join forces and call themselves the "we elect fools states". Well, maybe SC could join too.

    Florida's Loss=New york's Gain (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by daring grace on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 01:45:34 PM EST
    I don't know if "gain"... (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 02:13:37 PM EST
    is exactly accurate...just getting more of our NY cashish back from the laundry in DC.

    Parent
    same with CA (none / 0) (#23)
    by nycstray on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 03:41:31 PM EST
    these fool govs are helping send our funds back to us  ;)

    Parent
    Bout time... (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 03:52:56 PM EST
    they got off our blue state teets:)

    Parent
    Did you see the "citizen filibuster"? (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 05:16:12 PM EST
    Such a great term, coined (I think) by one of those crazy Wisconsin GOP legislators yesterday when he tried to cut off people's testimony on the bill.  (He failed that time but succeeded later -- for the official hearing, although Dem legislators set up an unofficial hearing and are taking turns at still listening to testimony today, I read.)

    I love the term "citizen filibuster."  I think it ought to become a movement seen nationwide!

    Parent

    That is cool... (none / 0) (#58)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 05:35:13 PM EST
    though if citizen filibusters caught on tasers might come out.

    Parent
    isnt Barbour mississippi? (none / 0) (#2)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 01:45:21 PM EST
    you have a trifecta

    Parent
    Ah, but Rodgers is the union rep (none / 0) (#49)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 05:12:28 PM EST
    for the Packers and is speaking out strongly in support of unions.  So are several current and former Packers.  Sorry, I can't find the link; it was in the Chicago Tribune, I think.  I looked for it in some Wisconsin media online and didn't find it.  Now, why would that be so?

    Such fun to see cognitive dissonance theories in real life.  Or else Wisconsin heads would explode.  (And exploding cheeseheads must be really messy.)

    Parent

    Ah, missed that -- thanks. But (none / 0) (#57)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 05:32:34 PM EST
    have you looked at the 150 comments?  I can imagine.

    Parent
    Yes. I am resisting the lure (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 06:25:06 PM EST
    of wallowing in the muck of online media comments and came here for my fix instead.  Much less messy; no exploding cheese to scrape off the screen here.

    Parent
    Alabama cannot join (none / 0) (#87)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 07:51:50 PM EST
    Because we are unaware that we elect fools.

    Parent
    Fyi, Obama speaks "On Wisconsin" (none / 0) (#92)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 08:33:01 PM EST
    and I think that this is waffling too much on the front line there of the fool GOP governors:

    President Obama spoke to WTMJ in Milwaukee Feb. 16. Here's a portion of his comments as they aired on the 5pm local newscast. More of the interview should air this evening and be on the station's website at some point soon:

    "I would say as a general proposition that everybody has got to make some adjustments to new fiscal realities. And I think if we want to avoid layoffs, which I want to avoid -- I don't want to see layoffs of hard-working federal workers. We had to impose, for example, a freeze on pay increases for federal workers for the next two years as part of my overall budget freeze. I think those kinds of adjustments are the right thing to do.

    On the other hand, some of what I've heard coming out of Wisconsin, where you're just making it harder for public employees to collectively bargain generally seems like more of an assault on unions. And I think it's very important for us to understand that public employees, they're our neighbors, they're our friends. These are folks who are teachers and they're firefighters and they're social workers and they're police officers. They make a lot of sacrifices and make a big contribution. And I think it's important not to vilify them or to suggest that somehow all these budget problems are due to public employees.

    On the other hand, some of what I've heard coming out of Wisconsin, where you're just making it harder for public employees to collectively bargain generally seems like more of an assault on unions. And I think it's very important for us to understand that public employees, they're our neighbors, they're our friends. These are folks who are teachers and they're firefighters and they're social workers and they're police officers. They make a lot of sacrifices and make a big contribution. And I think it's important not to vilify them or to suggest that somehow all these budget problems are due to public employees."

    "On the other hand"?  "Seems" like an assault?  

    Seems to me that he doesn't see that this is GOP war.

    Parent

    In the language of politics (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by christinep on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 10:08:27 PM EST
    "I welcome" President Obama's comments on the Wisconsin situation.  In fact, I would have thought that top-drawer Democratic Senators and well-known liberals would have spoken publicly by now as well.

    That Wisconsin's new Republican Governor Walker saw fit to seek this confrontation--and seek it he did with his quick move to talking about calling in the Guard--must be met with public resistance from Democrats and others who profess to support public employees and their right to bargain via labor unionization.  More power to Obama for adding his supportive words.

    BTW, I think that the challenge posed in Wisconsin is the test case for broader erosion of public employees unions. It has to be met head on.

    Parent

    We "had to impose" a freeze on federal (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:18:35 AM EST
    worker pay?  "Had to?"  Because the budget freeze was a done deal, and one "has to" follow the other?  

    As I recall, Obama's budget freeze was all about him showing how "serious" he is about government spending, so he started with the easiest thing he could do: freeze federal worker pay - "non-essential" federal worker pay, that is.

    As for "everybody's got to make some adjustments to new fiscal realities," I sure would like a definition of "everybody," because I think his definition and mine are miles apart.

    And I would also like a definition of these "new fiscal realities," because it seems to me like, at least on the federal side, they are creating the reality that works for their agenda.

    Here's something I found (h/t Corrente) that shows just how badly we are being served these days:

    There is no visible harm from current deficits. Yields on U.S. Treasurys are up a tick but still near historic lows. Core inflation in the U.S. is still so far below the 2% annual rate deemed desirable by the Federal Reserve that deflation continues to be more worrying. There is no crowding out of private borrowers in the debt markets.

    [snip]

    There is cause for alarm. There is the possibility that the government, held under the sway of misguided and obsolete economic theories and driven by a not-so-hidden corporate agenda, will make genuinely harmful cuts in both discretionary spending and entitlement programs - cuts that will cause real and needless misery to millions.

    [snip]

    When the U.S. was bound by the gold standard, it also faced constraints. Most of the thinking and language about budgets and deficits actually goes back to this time, when the U.S. genuinely had to "finance" its deficit.

    Since abandonment of the gold standard and the de facto adoption of a fiat currency, however, these constraints no longer apply. The U.S. is free to print as much money as it likes; the U.S. government is free to spend money without financing it.

    How crazy, you say. What about inflation? Inflation occurs when there is more demand than supply and this simply isn't going to happen when there is 8-10% unemployment. Treasury and the Fed have ample tools - selling debt securities and raising interest rates - to deal with inflation when it does threaten.

    Modern monetary theory - which is espoused by a growing number of economists and investment managers because it explains the observable facts better than the obsolete theories driving most of the public discussion - deals with the world as it is without a gold standard.

    [snip]

    The federal government is also not comparable to a household. It does not have a checkbook to balance or a credit card to max out, even though our folksy politicians like to use these metaphors. It does not have to "live within its means" like a family or individual. Our grandchildren will never have to repay all that debt. No one will, ever. It will continue to grow as our economy grows.

    All this flies in the face of all the groupthink going on in Congress, in the press and on cable TV. So if you want to reject modern monetary theory as hogwash and cling to theories that worked a century ago, you're in good company. But think about it, look around you, and decide for yourself what best describes the world you live in

    This "new reality" is applying the reality of the gold-standard years to the present in order to justify the shrinking of government, and rendering powerless one more group of workers: public employees.

    Obama's comments amounted to little more than a mealy-mouthed lecture that any teacher employed by the State of Wisconsin would be embarrassed to deliver to his or her students.

    Parent

    Donald, Donald, Donald... (none / 0) (#145)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:21:56 PM EST
    first - happy birthday!  If there's cake, I hope it's your favorite!

    My problem with Obama with respect to his comments about the Wisconsin situation was about how he has contstructed this framework where we are no longer discussing whether cuts and freezes and what-not are in order, but that we need to impose them.

    I honestly believe that if Obama would use his teaching skills to educate the American people about the rudiments of governmental fiscal and economic policy, and the nuts-and-bolts of monetary theory, that we would not be accepting as inevitable the necessity of cuts - much less cuts that will hurt people.

    And I don't think Chris Christie would fare well once enough people were educated on these issues; in fact, he would look even more like the Snidely Whiplash he is, thus elevating Obama - and Democrats - and the overall standard of living.

    I think I know who Obama is, and that, too, is a big part of the problem.  Because I think Obama is a believer in the Grover Norquist School, and so, it serves that agenda quite well for us not to be discussing the merits of cuts, only the inevitability of them, and arguing only over what is going under the knife.

    I have no doubt that the purity of my beliefs would undergo a reality check were I to get involved - as you have done - in local politics, but I still believe there is a place for purity and idealism, if only to remind people what we should be aiming for, instead of constantly lowering our sights - as we have done with respect to the quality of the candidates we have to choose from - and giving in to what does end up being mush-mouthed mediocrity.

    So...enjoy your birthday, and I will raise a glass in your honor tonight with best wishes for a wonderful year.

    Parent

    Yes, there are many talents (none / 0) (#153)
    by christinep on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 08:06:59 PM EST
    ...and, I believe as you do that "there is a place for purity and idealism...."  I respect your adherence to your philosophy.  

    Yet, there are many parts and many talents. (St. Paul--if memory serves--emphasized that everyone has a role in accordance with his/her talents and needs.) We could all benefit by giving each other some slack along the lines that Donald describes. Mutual respect is important for all of us...especially in the throes of disagreement about tactics and different pathways to the same goal.

    As for attitudes about the President: Your evaluation and my take definitely differ. I started off very skeptical; and, as time goes on, find myself increasingly impressed with the step-by-step movement in the direction that I would like to see. Quite practical; quite effective. Someday, perhaps, we will find a point of agreement on a particular policy. It wouldn't surprise me at all.

    Parent

    Oh, my goodness (none / 0) (#157)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:21:22 PM EST
    I do hope there's somebody around to catch you when you finally fall off the cliff of delusional adoration and face reality.

    Parent
    No adoration at all (none / 0) (#162)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:23:45 PM EST
    There is a middle ground between extreme antipathy and hatred. My approach--personally & professionally (lots of negotiation background)--has typically been to move step-by-step via the central area. I am reminded of the would-be leader who got so far out front that the citizens couldn't see, let alone follow, him/her.  

    Look, I support very much the philosophy expressed by a number of progressive individuals here. My approach to strategy & tactics, tho, often differs. As I've said, it is about mutual respect...not just from an altruistic perspective, but from a practical view. It takes compromise to move forward to avoid the "herding cats" outcome and to be able to realize even partial attainment of what we dream.

    Parent

    Excuse the slip (none / 0) (#163)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:27:04 PM EST
    In trying to avoid the use of the word "hatred," I actually used it.  My response to the comment to me suggesting my un-reality should read: "a middle ground between extreme antipathy and adoration." Sorry for the slip.

    Parent
    You are aware, right (none / 0) (#156)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:20:10 PM EST
    that states by law have to balance their budgets, unlike the federal government?

    I don't actually think it's entirely unreasonable to ask state employees to cough up a little more towards pensions and health insurance.  They do, after all, have jobs.  What's beyond the pale is using the economic/budget crisis as an excuse to abolish collective bargaining essentially by ukase, and I'm very pleased to see that tens of thousands of employees and their supporters have come out to protest it.

    Parent

    Budgets can be balanced in different ways (none / 0) (#164)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 12:34:08 PM EST
    The biggest issue concerns the distribution of the burden. That appears to be what is pressing so many of the protesters in Wisconsin.

    Compare the reportedly different approach budgetary cuts in the nearby state of Minnesota. I understand that Governor Dayton (D)--in view of the economic travails of the past years and the recession's effects on the middle class--chose another path. Towit: He would increase by a fraction (I think it is .3%) the state taxes paid by millionaires.  I understand that the Minnesota approach would bring in about 10 times the amount of the approach pushed by Wisconsin's Governor Walker (R).

    Parent

    god (none / 0) (#146)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:33:20 PM EST
    I wish I could rate this a 10

    Parent
    Happy Birthday, Hawaii writer! (none / 0) (#152)
    by christinep on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 07:50:37 PM EST
    So many people that I know would consider being in Hawaii for a birthday a perfect present...only we would have to plan, book a flight, spend one day going and another day returning, etc. You get the point, and I'm guessing you do count your blessings.  Happy Birthday, Donald!

    Also: Thank you for the very helpful, perceptive comment. I second almost every paragraph.

    Parent

    Too late. The war is about to be lost (none / 0) (#102)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 11:53:13 PM EST
    tonight, with the crucial legislative budget committee meeting.  I'm livestreaming it.

    Too late.  This is moving faster than Egypt, and Obama and the Dems don't have weeks to figure it out.  They were warned that they had only a couple of days, and they blew it.

    And this is just the "repair" bill for the current biennium.  The governor unleashed his budget for the next biennium today, and what comes next will continue the devastation, because he and his Repubs could see in the last couple of days that there is no real political resistance from the other party.

    Next up?  His next budget is about to sever the Madison campus from the rest of the UW.  So glad that my young family members who went there are out of there.

    Parent

    Wisconsin Dems (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:35:46 PM EST
    I put this in the open (none / 0) (#148)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:51:37 PM EST
    Just saw it -thanks (none / 0) (#150)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:51:22 PM EST
    Florida (none / 0) (#4)
    by CoralGables on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 01:46:01 PM EST
    gets the fool and, you're right, some other state will reap the many benefits going forward.

    We have to worry what the folks in (none / 0) (#5)
    by Harry Saxon on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 01:49:29 PM EST
    lower Alabama would think of this project.

    Uhhhh...if he isn't going take the money (none / 0) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 02:32:14 PM EST
    can I get it to put a shoulder on the road?  Cripes, I could end up with bike jogging lane, something else healthier on the road other than an orange General Lee with a big 01 painted on the side :)

    Parent
    Didn't the House (none / 0) (#6)
    by andgarden on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 02:03:10 PM EST
    put a special provision in the stimulus to prevent Mark Sanford from doing this (i.e., allowing the state legislature to take the money)?

    High speed rail is nuts (none / 0) (#7)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 02:11:08 PM EST

    The feds will help the state build a perpetual money loser.  That's insane!  Its not like the states are flush with spare cash.

    The army is a "perpetual money loser" (5.00 / 7) (#9)
    by andgarden on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 02:15:22 PM EST
    and so is the highway system.

    LALALA don't tell me they have external benefits LALALA!

    Parent

    There are a smattering of external benefits (none / 0) (#16)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 02:45:06 PM EST

    But the that is also true of projects that create more wealth than they consume.  

    Heck, having the Feds hire gang members to fire bomb ugly houses has some external benefits.  That still does not mean it would be a good thing to do.

    Parent

    So when do you propose (none / 0) (#158)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:23:59 PM EST
    we begin to get serious about what to do when the internal combustion engine mode of individual transportation is no longer financially supportable?

    Gonna be a lot of woulda-shoulda-couldas when the day comes, and it's going to be in our lifetimes.

    Parent

    High speed rail is nuts? (none / 0) (#18)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 03:04:08 PM EST
    that must be why its happening all over the world.

    for amusement purposes, why is it nuts?

    Parent

    It's nuts (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by CoralGables on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 03:20:45 PM EST
    to those that can't see past today and see no benefit in infrastructure planning for the future.

    Parent
    wait (none / 0) (#21)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 03:36:58 PM EST
    you call that an aero-plane?!?

    bahahahahahha

    Parent

    One of my favorite stories (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by CoralGables on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 03:52:50 PM EST
    was driving my grandfather back and forth to work in Miami when he was getting older. We'd be stuck in gridlock on I-95 at 5pm and he'd say..."You know, when they talked about building this road everyone said it would be too expensive, it's too hilly, and no one will drive on it".

    Parent
    Tell you what though... (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 03:44:00 PM EST
    unless its a helluva lot cheaper than buying a plane ticket as well as a heckuva lot more convenient than driving people ain't gonna ride the thing.

    I've actually looked into selling my car and taking public transport to and from work...I'd lose money, as well as time.  And I've looked at Amtrak alternatives to flying for trips...also more time/money costly.

    I'd like to think high speed rail could work, lord knows we all hate what flying has become...but its all about the retail ticket price vs. flying or driving or bus when all is said and done...especially considering the stagnant wages and ever rising cost of living everywhere.  If we think gas will be ten bucks a gallon within 20 years its a great idea, if not I don't know.

    And if high speed rail isn't feasible, we'd be better off investing the cash in jobs picking up litter on the beaches of FLA or on a more viable project...lord also knows there is lots of infrastructure falling apart.  

    Shorter version...A central planner's utopian wet dream of everybody zipping around on high speed rail alone is not enough...the million dollar question is what is a round trip ticket gonna cost vs the travel alternatives?  

    Parent

    It's going to take a change in American culture. (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:37:34 AM EST
    I spent 3 + years in Japan growing up. Took the train EVERYWHERE. Took the Bullet train to Osaka from Yokohama. Train went 115 mph. IN 1970! The United States is barely a 3rd world country when it comes to accessible intercity transportation.

    You can travel nearly anywhere in the world by rail affordably except in the US. What a freaking joke we are. And it's mostly because we have a long history of morons like the governor of Florida.

    Parent

    Denver is a good example of (2.00 / 1) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 06:21:59 PM EST
    hi speed train.

    And I'm all for them.

    But right now we're broke. Maybe we'd better pay for what we've already bought before we spend more.

    Parent

    Are we now? (none / 0) (#82)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 07:20:41 PM EST
    Do tell how local commuter light rail system is a great example of a "high speed train".

    39.4 miles of track?  Powered by engines operating on overhead electric with a top speed of 50 miles per hour?  

    Fail.


    Parent

    When I was commuting by car from Littleton to (2.00 / 1) (#139)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 02:28:18 PM EST
    down town 50 would have been super fast.

    But you're right. I should have spec'd intra city trains are great but inter city doesn't work out.

    Parent

    You sold me brother... (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 05:27:30 PM EST
    I hust hope they don't pull an MTA with the project.  I got no love for buying gas, and owning stuff is a pain in the arse...if there was a financial incentive thrown in to walk the 1/2 mile in the cold and give up an hour a day on the LIRR I'd be all in.

    And I'd love to high-speed rail it someplace cool for the weekend...but ya gotta be able to afford it.  

    Parent

    Um, yes (none / 0) (#159)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:29:04 PM EST
    actually.  We're either at or very close to peak oil right now, and the only thing temporarily keeping prices from going stratospheric is the lingering worldwide recession suppressing demand.

    There are a billion people in China alone yearning to buy cars and get on the road, and their booming economy means they're going to be able to afford it in the next few years.

    Alternatives like high-speed rail take years and years and years from initial planning to completion.  And in the meantime, please remember those huge projects create thousands of jobs and put lots of cash into the economy while they're being built.

    Parent

    infrastructure planning for the future. (none / 0) (#41)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 04:42:10 PM EST
    This is the 21st century not the 19th!  Intercity passenger rail, yikes!  That is planning for the past not the future.  

    It makes about as much sense as horse drawn stage coaches.  Except of course for the crony capitalists and the rent seekers.

    Parent

    honest to god (none / 0) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 04:44:43 PM EST
    are you at all aware of what is happening in the rest of the world?

    Parent
    If you can get me to Miami... (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 05:03:59 PM EST
    for 2 hundo round trip without somebody grabbing my junk I'm in.

    Parent
    saying high speed rail (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 05:05:25 PM EST
    is the past not the future is absolutely mind blowing.

    Parent
    Check out the CA (5.00 / 0) (#65)
    by nycstray on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 06:13:52 PM EST
    proposal check out the routes link for the interactive map. NoCal has very good PT systems that would hook up with. From where I'm sitting, it would prob be easier to get to than an airport and I wouldn't have to get there 2hrs early (or more!), get groped, treated like cattle on an over packed plain, get charged for breathing . . . . etc. I could do face time in LA w/clients, or better yet, hop down to SD and the border  ;)

    Parent
    Stray, wow unreal how short the travel (none / 0) (#74)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 06:36:46 PM EST
    times are....

    A lover of BART and a veteran of the I-5 route to S.F., I would love such a train.....Up and back the same day....

    Parent

    Yup! (none / 0) (#83)
    by nycstray on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 07:25:10 PM EST
    I think folks that don't have a rapid transit system just don't quite get it. If you look at the interactive link for the SF station, you can see all the connectors in the Bay Area. I'd hop a train to LA long before a plane. Just settle in and work or read instead of going through lines and hassles at the airport. And to not have to do I5 again . . . ahhhhhhh!

    Parent
    High speed rail from Vancouver, B.C. (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by caseyOR on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 10:30:50 PM EST
    to San Diego. That's the plan I wish was in the works. Imagine that kind of system linking the west coast. Businesspeople, vacationers, students, everyone zipping up and down the I-5 corridor on trains.

    I hate to fly, especially these days. And I would love it if I never had to drive from Portland to San Francisco again, especially if I could make the trip on a speedy train that kept to its schedule.

    Parent

    I'd so love it up to BC! (none / 0) (#103)
    by nycstray on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:00:54 AM EST
    the only thing is, they need to make 'contained' pet friendly sections ;)

    I'm all for linking cities with HSR, 'cause once you get to the cities (and other areas), you hit local transport. So freakin' easy.

    For me to go to SoCal, I would have to get to an airport (2hrs early) at least an hour away, and go through all the BS on both ends etc. Ask me to hop on rapid transit, I'm there.

    Parent

    Here's a question (none / 0) (#112)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 10:50:49 AM EST
    As high speed rail gets built and becomes more popular, what makes you think they won't change things to be like flying?  There definitely will be more people standing in line - why do you think they won't add security checkpoints and hassles?  They started random bag checks here in DC for the Metro for daily commuters - why on earth wouldn't they have more security on long haul high speed rail?

    Parent
    because trains do not (none / 0) (#113)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 10:54:59 AM EST
    travel at 35,000 ft?

    Parent
    So they can't blow up? (none / 0) (#117)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:13:51 AM EST
    high speed rail (none / 0) (#116)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:02:47 AM EST
    Is not very different from other rail, which has already been built and become popular in parts of the country.  And is extremely common in other parts of the world.

    They treat it like the train, possible random bag checks.

    Can you really picture airport security at Penn Station?  If they wanted it, they'd have it by now.  There are more than enough people who go through those types of stations on a daily basis to justify it.  High speed rail goes through the same terminals as other rail.

    I guess my point is, rail is already popular on the east coast, in foreign countries, etc...  And it didn't happen in any of those cases.

    Plus, trains aren't like planes, you can't drive them on any vector you want.  They will never be as big of a threat.

    Parent

    Like I said (none / 0) (#118)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:14:59 AM EST
    I can picture random bag checks on Metro - because it's happening, so yes, I can envision an airport security checkpoint eventually being put in big train stations.

    Parent
    pointless to put it in big stations (none / 0) (#119)
    by nycstray on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:18:06 AM EST
    it's like only having security at some airports . . .

    Parent
    So my genuine question remains (none / 0) (#120)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:19:51 AM EST
    You think, at some point in the future, if all this high speed rail gets built, you will still get to enjoy your train ride to LA without going through airport-like secuirty?

    Parent
    sure, why not? (none / 0) (#131)
    by nycstray on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:22:31 PM EST
    Nyers can still ride the subway without hands on body security. I can take amtrack to LA or a bus without it right now. Don't get harassed on BART either . . .

    I think our Gov might actually be riding the train. And don't forget, Bloomberg takes the subway . . .

    Parent

    of course (none / 0) (#132)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:26:14 PM EST
    planes will always be special because in the wrong situation they can not only kill all the passengers but then turn carpet bomb.

    no one will ever drive a train into building other than a train station.

    Parent

    trains do sometimes go under buildings (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:31:30 PM EST
    but I agree, they will never be the same threat as a plane.  Because they have a set path.

    For example, 9/11 killed about 3000 people - using nothing more than box cutters.

    The Madrid train bombings killed about 200 people - and they had 13 hidden bombs.

    Parent

    random bag checks (none / 0) (#122)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:42:13 AM EST
    are happening at big train stations.

    My point about big train stations (at least on the east coast) is that they are already hugely popular and have high speed rail.  What are they waiting for?

    Parent

    Would these be from big city to big city? (none / 0) (#123)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:48:53 AM EST
    Or is this a system that they think will farm out from big cities into their suburbs and beyond?  If so, that doesn't seem feasible.  Between cities seem like a good idea, though.

    Parent
    the only one i know of (none / 0) (#125)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:54:44 AM EST
    Is the acela train from boston to dc.

    It goes through Providence, a couple "cities" in CT, NYC, and on to DC.

    It stops in some of the bigger suburbs/small cities, but not nearly as many as the regular Amtrak that runs from Boston to DC.

    Parent

    Capt, your comment was best laugh today (none / 0) (#72)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 06:31:34 PM EST
    ....some of these arguments.....

    All abstract theory and no grounding in real facts or people....

    Remember:  As the GOP says, trains are for socialists.....

    Parent

    Ok lets hear it. (none / 0) (#105)
    by Wile ECoyote on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 05:28:54 AM EST
    What are the facts?  How much?  How much for the Eminent domain lawsuits?  Modern freight rails top out at 97 MPH.  How much to build the new high speed rails?  How much do the states put up?  If the feds pay for it all, do they fund it forever?  How many times does it stop?  If it does not make money, then what?  If it goes through my community and it does not stop, what compensation for that community?  Once a congressman sees a film of a high speed train derailing or a test train being blown up with an IED, there will be fences the entire length of the rails.  How do wildlife cross the tracks?  Money for security for the searches of passengers after a congressman sees a test train blowing up at high speed.  I lived in Europe.  High speed rail is nice, but as I recall it does not pay for itself.  If highspeed rail is a homerun, how come evil, souless corporations are not lined up to build and run it.  The only company I see is seimans, who wants to sell the gov't on their engines.  
    Even you have to admit this entire thread has been re-markedly fact free.  BTD's entire shtick has been "free money" for all and no hangover.  The only thing you have added to this conversation is letting people know you don't like anyone who disagrees with you.  
    Throw some of that reality based world you talk about.  Throw some facts.  Please.

    Parent
    All good questions no doubt (none / 0) (#107)
    by Rojas on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 07:06:52 AM EST
    But since the question of why aren't private corporations lining up to do this a couple of times I'd refer you to the Trans-Texas Corridor

    With usual bond financing there is a 3:1 ratio between total fees collected and value of capital infrastructure built. With TTC-35 the ratio is in the order of magnitude of 13:1. So while TTC-35 commits to construct $8 billion in infrastructure Cintra-Zachry expects to collect $114 billion in toll revenues as shown in the preliminary plan. A report by the Texas State Auditor estimated the toll to be collected for TTC-35 to be $104 Billion or more, confirming the order of magnitude of tolls collected.


    Parent
    Facts? Details? (none / 0) (#140)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 02:30:44 PM EST
    You want facts? Details?

    Gosh.

    ;-)

    Parent

    Yes, it was so nuts (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 03:40:14 PM EST
    to create roads.  Road maintenance is so costly!

    It was nuts to create railroads, even the "low-speed" ones.  Track maintenance is costly!  And omigod, the cost of that coast-to-coast line across the country in 1869.  And why was there such waste with that stupid golden spike, I ask you?

    It was nuts to create harbors.  It is too costly to keep dredging out that sand and silt, and maintain docks and piers and more.  I mean, the water is  there already, so what's with all the fancy addons?

    It was nuts to create airports, too.  Why all the costly maintenance of those runways, when the barnburners just landed in the fields?

    This insane investment in infrastructure just has to stop.  Let businesses that need to move their products build and maintain their own d*mn roads, railroads, harbors, airports, and more.  

    Parent

    Fools elected this tool. (none / 0) (#10)
    by KeysDan on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 02:16:23 PM EST
    In Florida, a state with probably the largest proportion of elderly residents, Scott was elected with a record of being booted out of the hospital chain, Columbia/HCA, he headed in 1997.  The El Paso office was raided by  the FBI, IRS and DHHS, and, in a fraud settlement that included fraudulently billing Medicare, including all civil suits, cost $2 billion.

    In a subsequent life, Scott became involved in Solantic, an urgency care facility chain, but, once again, ran into trouble this time with discrimination suits that involved a policy to not hire elderly or overweight applicants. Scott is not so much a fool as he is overdosed on tea causing loss of vision and functional impairment. And, it goes way back to when he was a partner of George W. Bush in ownership of the Texas Rangers.

    Really mind-blowing (none / 0) (#160)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:34:37 PM EST
    that this corrupt, immoral, not very bright jerk actually got elected, even in Florida.

    Parent
    This money would be wasted (none / 0) (#11)
    by jaycaruso on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 02:25:52 PM EST
    As somebody that lives in Florida, I can say for sure that this money would have been a total waste of time. Governor Scott's reasoning for turning down this money is very sound.

    1. Any cost overruns (which is inevitable) could leave Florida taxpayers with a $3 billion tab.

    2. The numbers the supporters are floating in terms of ridership and revenues  must have dreamed them up at an overnight stay in Fantasyland. There is no way that many will utilize it. One study showed over 3 million would utilize it which is crazy. They don't even get those numbers some areas of the Northeast corridor on Amtrak.

    3. The distance is a mere 84 miles. With the construction of the additional lanes between Tampa and Orlando completed, the car ride is a little over an hour.

    4. Local mass transit is nowhere to be found. Neither Tampa or Orlando have the kind of public transportation found in cities like Chicago, Boston or New York.

    The citizens of Florida cannot even decide what it is they want. In 2000, we approved a constitutional amendment mandating a rail line that would have linked Tampa, Orlando and Miami. In 2004, the amendment was repealed. There is finally going to be a commuter rail line built between Orlando and DeBary but that took nearly 15 years to get done with all of the local fighting that went on.

    And don't let Congressman Mica's comments fool anybody. He is my congressman and for the most part, I support his stances on issues and policies, but on this one he is flat at wrong and he should understand that considering he knows all too well the fight that went on regarding the link between DeBary and Orlando.

    I grew up in Florida (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 02:37:02 PM EST
    And am there all the time.

    If you really do not believe that there would be usage, I suggest you have no idea how the character of Central Florida has changed. Indeed, look at TriRail usage to see what I mean.

    Indeed, what will REALLY make it work is extending it down to Miami.

    Parent

    More importantly though (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 02:38:09 PM EST
    Right now, Florida needs the economic boost.

    It is simply insane to toss away free money (from the  state's perspective) no matter what you think of the project.

    Parent

    Can you even imagine the reaction if, (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Farmboy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 04:45:14 PM EST
    back in the 50s, a state governor would have told Ike, "Hell no, we ain't letting you feds send money, jobs, and infrastructure to our state! No way, no how!" That would've been a full stop for his political career. People understood back then that federal projects meant federal tax dollars coming home.

    Parent
    "free money" (none / 0) (#25)
    by DaveCal on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 03:48:11 PM EST
    And that right there, ladies and gentlemen, highlights the problem.  

    The feds throw money at the states (my money and your money) and the states think its "insane" to pass it up.  So they take it, and build a rail system that won't be finished on time or on budget (with the state picking up the overrun costs), and that once finished will bleed money in perpetuity.  

    Here's a little primer on the pipe dream that is high speed rail:

    http://tinyurl.com/4e22cwm

    I urge you to read it.  

    Parent

    Because we all know (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by Radix on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 03:50:46 PM EST
    gas prices will all always going down.

    Parent
    why dont you and Robert just say what you mean? (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 03:55:06 PM EST
    we are idiots.  we are incompetent.  we are to stupid to pound sand in a rathole.
    we are to weak and passive to do what virtually every other 1st world country has been doing for decades.

    not us.  we drive cars. we are amurkans!

    Parent

    You might look at the distances (none / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 06:26:14 PM EST
    involved and compare Europe with the US.

    Parent
    High speed trains (none / 0) (#104)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 02:57:30 AM EST
    are good for all distances, compare Japan to Europe.

    Parent
    Distance is important (none / 0) (#138)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 02:25:28 PM EST
    because that is a big factor in first cost and longer distances increases time spent which increases the advantage of auto travel for mid distances and increase the advantage of air for long distances.

    Plus, you still need transportation when you get there. That's called a "car" in almost all cases.

    Intra city trains, as in Denver, work well. I don't see them for inter city.

    Parent

    not just distance (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 02:35:40 PM EST
    but density.  Suburban lifestyles make it harder.  You wouldn't need a car when you get there if you live and stay in the city (and that city has adequate transit).

    I think inter-city could certainly work vs. air travel, esp with all the hassles associated with air travel.  Maybe not coast-to-coast, but certainly regionally.  It just has to be fast and regular enough.  That takes investment.  Right now, the only "high speed" train I know of is only about 25% faster than the regular train because they don't have the track to go faster.

    If it went as fast as the train itself could actually go, it would be a lot more appealing.

    The train is unappealing because the system is inadequate.  But if you have the right infrastructure in place, it can be great, even for slightly longer distances.

    Parent

    Uh Huh (none / 0) (#155)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 10:16:30 PM EST
    You wouldn't need a car when you get there if you live and stay in the city (and that city has adequate transit).

    But the problem is that the city does not have that and neither is there a way to get 100 miles out to Grandma's house outside of a car.

    We have a decent inter city transportation system.

    We have a disaster for intra city transportation.

    Obama was just pushing words trying to look good. We should fix problems and quit worrying about out doing Japan and Europe for inter city travel via train.

    Parent

    I would love (none / 0) (#161)
    by CST on Fri Feb 18, 2011 at 10:37:04 AM EST
    for cities around the country to improve their transit.  I'm lucky enough to already live in a city that does that.

    That being said, most cities do have some form of public transportation, whether it's light rail, the subway, or buses.

    And even if you rent a car once you get there, that still saves you most of the driving time between cities.

    Inter city transportation is really not that decent.  There is no need to fly if you are going to a regional city, and driving stinks, especially if you are trying to leave someplace at 5pm on a Friday like everyone else in the country.

    It would be worth it in reduced road-rage alone :)

    Long train rides are great.  You can walk around, get a beer, stretch out.  You're not trapped in a cabin with your ears popping in a tiny seat with no where to go if someone decides to start acting crazy.  You don't have to go through all the hassles of security, and it's generally a fairly pleasant experience.

    Train is my favorite way to travel by far, it's just not fast enough right now to justify the cost.  That's something that can be fixed.

    Parent

    In the case of Florida (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:03:43 PM EST
    The first trains would be between tourist/convention/leisure locations and transportation centers. No one needs a car to get from the airport to Disneyworld and then down to Tampa for a ballgame, or from a convention center/hotel in Tampa up to Disneyworld and then out to the Space Coast if the stops are placed correctly.  Transportation lines to other locations will fill in as needed.

    Parent
    I would love... (none / 0) (#151)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 07:02:12 PM EST
    ...to be able to fly in to Orlando and take a high speed train to Cocoa Beach and not have to take one of those expensive and hard to schedule vans or have to rent a car.  

    Parent
    Re: Transportation (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 08:53:24 PM EST

    Plus, you still need transportation when you get there. That's called a "car" in almost all cases.

    There aren't such things as buses, taxis, light rail, etc, when you get to large cities in America?

    Color me surprised.

    :-)

    Parent

    Okay (none / 0) (#33)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 03:59:55 PM EST
    So according ot conservatives we might as well accept that we are going to be funding the major funders of terrorism into perpetuity, we are going to have to spend hours in traffic jams everyday and our quality of life is just going to have to go down because it's hard weerk. (cue the conservative whine now)

    Parent
    Author: Robert Samuelson (none / 0) (#40)
    by seabe on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 04:40:39 PM EST
    All I need to know. Kthx.

    Parent
    Usage, yes. That much usage, no. (none / 0) (#17)
    by jaycaruso on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 02:52:23 PM EST
    I didn't say there wouldn't be usage so your accusation that I have "no idea how the character of Central Florida has changed" is off base. I said the suggested usage by proponents is way too optimistic. The drive from the areas where designated stops are to be located is an easy drive especially since the construction of additional lanes. I drove that route every weekend for nearly 4 months when my mother was getting cancer treatments. Even at the height of commuter traffic in the middle of Orlando, the drive from Kissimmee to Tampa was an easy one.

    Your example of TriRail doesn't hold up in the Tampa to Orlando example. Yes, people use TriRail because of the absurd amount of congestion along the I-95 corridor in that area.

    As somebody that has been a resident of Florida for nearly 14 years and before that a resident of New Jersey that commuted to NYC every day for work, I can say that I appreciate the value of public transportation. The problem with this project is there is no necessity for it and it's too much of a risk to take in the long term to merely trade off for short term gains.

    Parent

    Driving is THE PROBLEM (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by andgarden on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 04:06:36 PM EST
    the problem rail has (none / 0) (#36)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 04:15:27 PM EST
    is that it doesnt have a lobby.  like the interstate highways did with the oil companies.  read the history of LA.  they dismantled public transportation to control the future.  

    they have sort of a reverse lobby.


    Parent

    Not just L.A. though (none / 0) (#47)
    by brodie on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 05:06:42 PM EST
    that was the most dramatic and tragic example of TPTB surreptitiously re-organizing a city for their own financial benefit, focusing on a well-run and popular mass transit line and seeking to undermine and destroy it.  It was a concerted corporate conspiracy happening in major and mid-sized cities all over the country back in the first half of the 20th C.

    No question the pro-public sphere quarter hasn't been adequately heard from, nor have they been adequately organized.  For 30 yrs since Reagan -- or 35 since the de-regulating Jimmy -- the dominant rhetoric has been about letting private enterprise loose to do what it does so well.  That and, until the Great Recession sobered people up, Americans' obsession with cars.

    Parent

    Rail does have a lobby (none / 0) (#53)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 05:25:30 PM EST

    General Electric is an effective lobbyist.

    The problem with intercity passenger rail is the value of goods and services (wealth) it takes to build and operate it is greater than the value of the service it provides.  Were it otherwise, those profit crazed corporations we hear so much about would be building them left and right.

    When no one wants to put up their own money to build it and the people wanting to build it want other people's money to do so, that should give you a clue.  

    Parent

    Hey AAA, which private for profit (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 06:43:41 PM EST
    company built the Interstate Highway system?

    Parent
    Or, any International Airport (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 06:45:03 PM EST
    Good grief....the infrastructure for transportation is a public good....

    Why is this so hard?

    Parent

    Because the cost far out weighs the benefit (none / 0) (#95)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 10:11:01 PM EST
    Trains are a socialist conspiracy (none / 0) (#75)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 06:42:28 PM EST
    It is an effort to make people ride together.  It is a communal experience.  

    It is not based on individual decision making during the trip.

    It is one step to full blown socialism.....

    Parent

    Except now, as a result of change in (none / 0) (#86)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 07:51:44 PM EST
    federal law, you can take your gun along--in the baggage car.  

    Parent
    OMG (none / 0) (#89)
    by Rojas on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 08:04:00 PM EST
    don't look in the cargo hold of that 747

    Parent
    There are a lot of snowbirds (none / 0) (#19)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 03:09:20 PM EST
    that pump money into the Florida economy and a whole bunch of those people take the auto train down.  Assuming that everyone North of Florida decides to get linked into a high speed rail system, South Carolina and Georgia may just be in a position to poach some snowbirds off the state of Florida.

    Parent
    Uh, climate is the reason (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 06:29:05 PM EST
    snow birds go FL instead of GA and SC,

    Parent
    Uh, Charleston and Savannah (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 07:05:05 PM EST
    have pretty mild winters.  

    Parent
    Yes they do (none / 0) (#137)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 02:21:03 PM EST
    But Orlando and Miami are milder.

    Parent
    I take the auto train up (none / 0) (#100)
    by Madeline on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 11:30:34 PM EST
    to visit home, Pittsburgh. Get a sleeper, read, watch TV, have dinner, sleep and wake up in Lorton.
    Take a beautiful drive thru Maryland, WVA and Pa to home. It's one of my favorite trips.

    Another is taking the auto train to Lorton; leave Union Station in DC and take the speed train to NYC.
    Just visiting Union Station is an experience.

    It may end though.  The Republican budget proposes cutting the Auto Train subsidy,one of the most lucrative Amtrak routes.

    BTW, it is affordable if you get reservations early.

    Parent

    You are overlooking the tourists in the equation (none / 0) (#62)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 05:49:35 PM EST
    Wouldn't Tampa like to get some of the Disney tourists down there for a day? Most of those don't rent cars anymore. They take the Disney bus right to from the airport to the resort. They are not going to rent a car to go to Tampa, but they might take a train. Heck, I've only been to Tampa 3 times in the 5 years i've lived in Orlando. It is 90 minutes on a good day, and a boring unpleasant 90 minutes to boot.

    Same with the drive to Miami as BTD says, I'd go once in a while if I could hop on a train and read all the way there.

    Parent

    I can see taking the train from Orlandp to (none / 0) (#66)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 06:18:05 PM EST
    Miami.  Not sure about Orlando to Tampa, as the only reason I've ever been to Tampa was to fly there to get to Sarasota.

    Parent
    I would take it to go to a baseball game (none / 0) (#73)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 06:34:53 PM EST
    in that stadium they can't barely keep half full.

    Parent
    I think it (none / 0) (#101)
    by Madeline on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 11:32:05 PM EST
    would be great.  Ever been in that traffic between those two cities?

    Parent
    Disney I am sure would like (none / 0) (#81)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 07:06:46 PM EST
    Tampa area tourists as well.  They were supposed to have their own station apparently.  And I found out that they gave $25,000 to Scott's inaugural celebration - must not have been enough money to persuade him to work in their best interests.

    Parent
    Can't fight the stupid (none / 0) (#84)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 07:27:57 PM EST
    Scott is going to create 600k new jobs by gutting the school system, turning away money, and generally taking away any incentive to relocate here other than low taxes.  That's why I said a couple of months ago that Florida is going to be the pure tea party experiment. It ain't gonna be pretty.


    Parent
    Hey, we're happy in Illinois (none / 0) (#12)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 02:27:46 PM EST
    that Wisconsin led the way when its fool of a governor refused the federal transit funds -- more than $800 million, since Wisconsin was the only state to receive the full funding previously requested.  So the funds got sent to other states, especially Illinois.  And now we're remapping the route for high-speed rail to get from Chicago to the Twin Cities another way, skipping Wisconsin.

    Who will want to live in Wisconsin, anyway, with all else that its fool of a governor is doing?  (Watch Ed Schultz on MSNBC this week; he is doing great work every night on the debacle there, as he correctly sees that the Kochs' Club for Growth is moving fastest and first there, for other states to follow.)

    Out of curiosity, how are you getting to the (none / 0) (#31)
    by Farmboy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 03:55:50 PM EST
    Twin Cities, if not via Wisconsin? Iowa's zombie governor doesn't want the federal money for rail either.

    Heck, he and the neoGOP in Iowa are all about rejecting federal funds for areas like DHS, education, and transportation. Just yesterday he fired over a fourth of Iowa's care center inspectors, the salaries for whom came mostly funded from the feds.

    Parent

    Well Iowa to Ill is the alternative route. (none / 0) (#37)
    by DFLer on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 04:23:43 PM EST
    to WI, for now.

    Parent
    Washington, too (none / 0) (#38)
    by denise k on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 04:24:04 PM EST
    We can use some of that money out here, too.  And Gov. Gregoire won't turn her nose up at it!  We need the jobs and the transportation system!

    Parent
    Yes, per DFLer: Iowa is the route (none / 0) (#48)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 05:08:38 PM EST
    being planned now.  Interesting about the latest from Iowa, though, reported here -- but your source?  Latest in Chicago media is that Iowa has no problem taking federal funds for high-speed rail infrastructure.

    No doubt Iowa's governor, like so many Americans, doesn't consider social infrastructure worthwhile, though.  Building children's lives?  Bah.

    Parent

    Last spring we allocated $10m for planning, and (none / 0) (#55)
    by Farmboy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 05:29:13 PM EST
    in December the state received a promise from the feds for $300m out of the redirected Ohio/Wisc funds. Then on Jan. 26 zombie governor released his budget. "Gvernor Branstad proposes to eliminate the state's matching funds for high-speed rail development for passengers and freight." As the Iowa house is giving him everything he wants, I expect he'll get this too.

    source bleedingheartland.com scroll down to item 7.

    PS. At this moment the Iowa house is debating a 20% cut in state taxes, to spur job growth.

    Parent

    Omigod, I knew Iowa was (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 05:35:46 PM EST
    odd -- but nuts, too?

    Btw, I read that Wisconsin had invested something like 15 years of planning and $100 million in the federal funds for high-speed rail -- and now has to pay back those federal funds, too.  Nuts, nuts, nuts.

    Parent

    We're not all nuts - but the folks in the capitol (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by Farmboy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 05:52:09 PM EST
    are certainly acting that way. The neoGOP rolled into power on a externally funded platform of hate: hate the gays, hate the brown folks, hate the federal government. They've spent the last six weeks trying to pass legislation against being gay, against being non-christian, and against educating children. As part of their federal government hate, they've even talked about refusing disaster recovery funds for the major floods we've suffered two of the last three years. That's some weapons-grade nuts right there.

    Parent
    What happened to Iowa -- (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 06:22:26 PM EST
    always so proud to be one of the major welfare states, i.e., federal subsidies for farmers?  Iowa always was one of the leaders on that list.

    So the farmers are refusing subsidies, too?

    Ah.  No.  I thought not.

    Parent

    Farm subsidies are part of the disconnect (none / 0) (#114)
    by Farmboy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:00:02 AM EST
    in folks' minds around here. I asked one of my neighbors (a farmer) after he went off on a "socialized medicine is evil / keep the gummint out of my medicare" rant last fall if he was going to refuse all future farm subsidies. He looked at me like I was the crazy one, then tried to convince that he was "owed" that money.

    Parent
    "For passengers... (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 07:40:26 PM EST
    ...and freight."  That's the part that's being overlooked.  

    Passenger rail has never, ever ran at a profit in this country.  It originated as a loss-leader for promoting freight service.  That's were the money has always been--freight.  

    Trains provide a cost effective means of moving goods from one place to other.  Fuel efficient as well.  They also reduce congestion on the roads, etc.  Gawd forbid we invest in/improve upon the system to amplify these benefits.

    The current anti high speed rail attitude in this country is penny wise and pound foolish.


    Parent

    What is Honolulu's (none / 0) (#78)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 06:47:16 PM EST
    plan for trains?

    We will (whether you like it or not) be your full time neighbors in the (hopefully) not too distant future.

    Parent

    And the Teabaggers Cheer On (none / 0) (#42)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 04:43:58 PM EST
    No one knows why, not even them, but their guy managed to tick off both parties, and that's gotta mean something good.

    I think (none / 0) (#88)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 07:59:41 PM EST
    I think Light Rail has given all rail a bad name.

    Just look at the "progress" report on the new Seattle Light rail at the link I supplied below..Make sure and read the second to the last paragraph.  If I were the governor, I wouldn't commit to any rail system that required state funds.  There's a reason we've gotten AWAY from rail....going back is just a boondoggle for somebody...

    Link

    Building roads is a much better idea....If you don't believe me, can we Seattle-ites send you the bill for our rail system?

    Yes, by all means... (none / 0) (#90)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 08:15:08 PM EST
    ...lets make a judgment based on a city that can't make up its mind on anything (like replacing the viaduct) and spends years/decades studying, arguing, studying, arguing while the capital costs escalate each and every year.  

    Where are you going to build these roads--in the Sound, Lake Union, Lake Washington?  

    And gawd knows there's nothing quite like sitting in bumper to bumper traffic on I-5 at all hours of the day.  

    We're quite happy with our light rail system thank you very much--it has surpassed every expectation.  

    Parent

    Exactly right, MileHi. (none / 0) (#96)
    by caseyOR on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 10:24:19 PM EST
    If Seattleites want to experience a successful light rail system all they have to do is drive south about 150 miles to Portland. We are expanding our already extensive light rail system. Oh, and we are also expanding our street car lines.

    Portland started planning and developing our expanding mass transit system back in the 1970s. Sure, there have been bumps along the way, but all in all it is a good system.

    I shudder to think what Portland would be like had people not had the foresight to plan and develop our mass transit.

    Parent

    And if things haven't (none / 0) (#111)
    by CoralGables on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:25:29 AM EST
    changed over the years, you can ride the MAX for free in the downtown Portland area to get around. My first time there, I was daydreaming and over the river we went. Whew, popped off at the Rose Garden to make my escape as the transit guys started looking at tickets. I was also impressed with the electric car hookups downtown. Portland (other than losing the AAA Beavers) is way ahead of the curve.

    Parent
    It is called "Fareless Square". (none / 0) (#128)
    by caseyOR on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:05:13 PM EST
    Within the downtown area and across the river to Lloyd Center, the MAX trains and the streetcars are free. Makes zipping around very easy.

    Good mass transit solves a lot of problems, but could not stop the sad departure of the Beavers. The loss of baseball is a black mark on our municipal soul.

    Parent

    Another benefit (none / 0) (#144)
    by CoralGables on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:16:44 PM EST
    of my trip to Portland was it happened to fall during the Brew Festival. I did some hunting after the trip and found some craft brew based out of Portland on the stock exchange, and have made a tidy profit. So I guess I liked the Max and the brew.

    Parent
    No,but you can have dedicated bus (none / 0) (#106)
    by observed on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 05:33:19 AM EST
    lanes---a solution which was seen to be effe ctive while the downtown bus tunnel was built. Want a real 21st century solution? Live in the city.

    Parent
    of course! (none / 0) (#108)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 08:11:02 AM EST
    why didnt I think of that!  all we have to do is all move to a city.

    brilliant.

    Parent

    Thanks for the feedback, Capt Teresa. (none / 0) (#109)
    by observed on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 08:45:32 AM EST
    You shouldn't laugh though: suburbs ARE the problem. And in fact, the city of Seattle has seen  an increase in population within the city limits in recent years, after decades of staying roughly the same, with growth in the suburbs and satellites. But of course you knew that, because you must live in Seattle, given that I was discussing transit issues there.

    Parent
    Ever been to San Diego? (none / 0) (#124)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:52:06 AM EST
    I think the Trolley there is an overwhelming success. It's only downfall, IMO, is that it doesn't serve the beaches (where parking is horrendous).

    I think rail, intercity, intracity, you name it, is the way of the future, if this country had any leaders with foresight and half a brain. Unfortunately we don't. The US is doomed and will cease to exist as we know it over the next 50 years. I expect even less.

    Parent

    I am starting to agree with that. (none / 0) (#126)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 11:58:49 AM EST
    if things do not change and at this point if any change happens I more or less expect it to be for the worse.  see texas.

    Parent
    to wit (none / 0) (#127)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:02:21 PM EST
    Mike Beard, a Republican state representative from Minnesota, recently argued that coal mining should resume in the Land of 10,000 Lakes, in part because he believes God has created an earth that will provide unlimited natural resources.

    "God is not capricious. He's given us a creation that is dynamically stable," Beard told MinnPost. "We are not going to run out of anything."



    Parent
    Ummm.... (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:14:44 PM EST
    I guess he's never heard of Noah's Ark.

    Gotta love the people who pick and choose which God to believe in.  Although honestly, I can't blame them.  If you really believed every single thing in the bible your mind would explode.

    Parent

    one thing is clear (none / 0) (#130)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:19:25 PM EST
    we will never run out of f*cktards

    Parent
    Only in my rear view mirror. (none / 0) (#136)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:36:21 PM EST
    I left Texas '05. Return only to visit my mom. Other than that, you couldn't pay me to live there again.

    Parent
    Are you certain the money will be spent? (none / 0) (#93)
    by me only on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 09:46:40 PM EST
    USA Today a few weeks ago had a story about "lost earmark" money.  That money has never been spent.

    cost overruns (none / 0) (#134)
    by diogenes on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:06:18 PM EST
    If this is such a good, federally funded investment then why should Florida have to pay anything for it?  Let the feds invest in it and rake in the profits to help pay down the national debt.

    roads (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:10:36 PM EST
    this isn't rocket science.

    Who do you think pays for roads?  Or storm drains?  Or sewer lines?  Or any other infrastructure related project.

    Apparently only trains are held to the standard of paying for themselves.

    Parent

    A fool who's been pretty successful... (none / 0) (#165)
    by Scarabus on Sat Feb 19, 2011 at 11:10:26 AM EST
    After all, when the company of which he was CEO was nailed for massive Medicare fraud, he wasn't jailed. Instead he walked away with $50 million. To do that he had to plead the 5th on @50 times.

    Granted, the credit should probably go to his legal team. But Scott did get away with it and go on to be elected governor of Florida by a slim margin. And now, like so many other Tea Partiers, he's claiming that "the people" have spoken and given him a strong, crystal clear mandate.

    Disclaimer: I live in Florida, I might be feeling a smidge bitter.