Thoughts on the Killing of Osama bin Laden

By Jeralyn, Section War on Terror
Posted on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:15:35 PM EST
Tags: Osama bin Laden (all tags)

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Update: The State Department just issued an increased terror threat alert for Americans worldwide.

My thoughts on Obama's speech and killing Osama bin Laden:

Justice is done when someone is apprehended and brought to trial, and convicted or acquitted. Murdering a suspect is not bringing him to justice.

What changes Osama's death will bring: Heightened security measures, retributive attacks, and years more of the Government's war on terror and war in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

I can understand that people are relieved Osama bin Laden is dead. I cannot understand cheering his murder. Murder is not a cause for jubilation. [More...]

Politically, this will be a welcome boost for Obama. It's kind of interesting that he had time for the White House Correspondents' dinner last night, while considering whether to launch this operation today. He certainly didn't seem like someone with serious decisions to be made imminently. I would imagine the details of such an operation are pretty complex. It makes me wonder whether Obama even knew yesterday this was in the works for today, or whether it was planned by others and today he put his stamp of approval on it. [Update 5/2: CBS reports Obama gave the strike order on Friday.][Update 5/2: Apologies to Obama: John Brennan said there was dissension at the table and Obama made the call, calling it extremely gutsy. Since Obama would have gotten the blame if it went wrong, we need to at least give him the credit for it going as intended.]

I'm watching a really sick scene on TV right now of people gathering outside in Washington waving flags and cheering.

Bottom line: This is a symbolic victory. One terrorist is dead. There are thousands more waiting to take his place. We've done little to address the reasons they hate America. We've been attack free since 9/11. That's probably going to come to an end.

Update: Jim Davis, former FBI Afghanistan Commander (2004-2005), on my local news:

Killing Osama is important for the national psyche but not all that important for impacting the way al Qaida does business. We had pretty much marginalized Osama's opportunity to do direct operations through our intelligence and military operations over there.

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Thoughts on the Killing of Osama bin Laden | 71 comments (71 topical)

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Are there enough facts known (5.00 / 2) (#4)
by Rojas on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:31:34 PM EST

to characterize the death as murder? I believe they said there was a fire fight. Seems that is all that is known at this time.

Obama said he authorized a (5.00 / 3) (#9)
by Jeralyn on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:35:03 PM EST

strike on the compound where Osama was believed to be hiding. He was shot in the head. He said we killed Osama. He's been on the kill or capture list. Premeditated taking of life is murder last time I looked.


I'm totally comfortable with the view (5.00 / 4) (#17)
by andgarden on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:46:07 PM EST

that he was killed will resisting capture. I'm not celebrating his death, but I am not unhappy that we found him and took care of him.

I'd much rather we'd captured him alive, though.


: I am also of the view that he was (5.00 / 2) (#58)
by MO Blue on Mon May 02, 2011 at 08:35:17 AM EST

killed while resisting capture and glad that he is gone.
I just wished that I thought that this would mark a change in our policy on Afghanistan, and other aspects of our "WOT" both here and abroad.

Do you think we would have (none / 0) (#19)
by Rojas on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:46:32 PM EST

not taken him alive if possible. Seems improbable to me unless the powers that be believed he was so out of touch as to have no intelligence value.
just speculating.


Tapper said that his sources (none / 0) (#22)
by ruffian on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:49:31 PM EST

told him that the Seal team took hard drives, etc. From the compound, so apparently they think he had some intelligence value. Being in a house in the middle of the city with communication not an issue therenis no reason to think he was cut off from operations.


: That could be a big deal (none / 0) (#25)
by andgarden on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:54:24 PM EST

Information about secret bank accounts they can freeze?

Whether killing OBL was murder (none / 0) (#24)
by Peter G on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:53:23 PM EST

depends on whether you accept or dispute that he was a (or even the) commander of an unconventional military force at war with the United States.


killed or murdered (5.00 / 1) (#26)
by Jeralyn on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:55:23 PM EST

is semantics at this point. He was killed, he wasn't captured and brought to stand before a court where justice could be delivered after a fair trial.


As a criminal lawyer and civil libertarian (5.00 / 3) (#64)
by Peter G on Mon May 02, 2011 at 09:21:58 AM EST

I cannot agree that "killed" vs. "murdered" is a matter of semantics. Saying "killed" passes no legal or moral judgment. In law-talk, the term "murdered," consistent with its connotation in conventional speech I think, means killed by another person without lawful justification or excuse. A wanted fugitive from a federal indictment (which bin Laden was - for the 1998 Africa bombings, and probably on the KSM indictment for 9/11 also, though I haven't re-checked that) can be arrested and brought to justice in court. It violates international law to arrest him in a foreign country rather than extradite him, but even if kidnapped abroad, he could be lawfully tried in the U.S., so far as U.S. law is concerned. Deadly force cannot be used in arresting him unless he resists arrest by using or threatening serious physical harm to another. But I don't think the U.S. is even making a claim here that the special forces intended to arrest OBL or take him into custody. As far as I've heard and read, the intent was to assassinate him. As a matter of criminal law, that cannot be justified -- deserved, perhaps, but not justified. Only under the law of war might it be lawful ("excused"). I think this does matter.


Capturing him alive would (none / 0) (#29)
by brodie on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:02:20 AM EST

have been preferable but almost certainly extremely unlikely given his security and his determination, like Hitler, not to be captured alive. According to the BBC reporter I heard, OBL had ordered his guards to kill him if he risked being captured.


Agreed, it is semantics. (none / 0) (#30)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:04:33 AM EST

obl masterminded the 9/11 attacks. He has now been killed.

End of story.


: End of story? (5.00 / 2) (#52)
by Warren Terrer on Mon May 02, 2011 at 07:44:20 AM EST

Then US troops will be leaving Afghanistan and Iraq now? I don't think so.

I'm reading that this was a fire fight (none / 0) (#31)
by txpolitico67 on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:06:45 AM EST

Isn't this a result, sometimes, of resisting? After all the misery that this ONE person has wrought upon the planet, I don't have sympathy for him. I stand with the families of 9/11, the families of the attacks in London and in Spain, and our military. OBL had no regard about spilling the blood of innocent people.

So, I for one am quite happy that he met his demise. OBL was a casualty of his own war. I dont see it as murder, he died for his own cause.


Disagree (none / 0) (#57)
by Yman on Mon May 02, 2011 at 08:26:41 AM EST

There is a huge difference between "killed" and "murdered", the latter of which (as you know) indicates an unlawful killing.


Sounds like basically a raid on the compound (none / 0) (#10)
by ruffian on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:35:51 PM EST

that met some resistance. One of the helicopters was damaged and had to be destroyed lest it fall into enemy hands. Murder vs act of war is part of the debate that has been ongoing since 911. Do we treat it as war or a criminal act?


Definitely an enemy combatant. (none / 0) (#12)
by oculus on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:37:03 PM EST

: Please don't use that term from the GWB (5.00 / 1) (#55)
by Harry Saxon on Mon May 02, 2011 at 07:56:40 AM EST

administration, some of us haven't had our breakfast yet.

Ruffian (none / 0) (#70)
by Politalkix on Sat May 07, 2011 at 04:44:03 PM EST

Cruise missile strikes were also launched against Al Qaeda terrorists By President Clinton before the WTC attacks. Cruise missile strikes are kill missions. Was President Clinton treating the action of Islamic terrorists as war or criminal action?


: But, but, BUT ... (none / 0) (#71)
by Yman on Mon May 09, 2011 at 07:22:07 AM EST

... CLINTON !!!

Seems people think this is the end of something (5.00 / 4) (#5)
by ruffian on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:31:54 PM EST

other than one man's life. I seriously doubt it.

That's my reaction (5.00 / 3) (#7)
by andgarden on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:33:44 PM EST

I wish it were more.


Definitely not an end (none / 0) (#32)
by txpolitico67 on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:07:39 AM EST

but, like someone said, it cuts the head off the dragon.


: Except (none / 0) (#53)
by Warren Terrer on Mon May 02, 2011 at 07:46:44 AM EST

that bin laden long ago structured al qaeda so that it could go on functioning without him. And it will.

: Doubt it (none / 0) (#66)
by sj on Mon May 02, 2011 at 10:24:31 AM EST

It's a hydra, not a dragon.

Yes, it may be the beginning (none / 0) (#60)
by BackFromOhio on Mon May 02, 2011 at 08:50:05 AM EST

of more internal political struggles in Pakistan that may well have their effects on US; just heard on MSNBC that UBL was living in an upper class section of Pakistan along with several Pakastani military leaders, and that only certain Pakastanis knew of the raid for fear that others were sympathetic and would tip off UBL.


His death makes me feel nothing (5.00 / 8) (#15)
by Dadler on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:41:32 PM EST

Not elation, not relief, nothing really. And I know why. Because OBL long ago became much smaller than the chaos he helped start, and which we have only made worse. And which will, of course, continue long after he's gone.

There's just nothing about The War on Terror that engenders positive emotion in me. Zero.

I've stopped looking under my bed for (5.00 / 1) (#21)
by Harry Saxon on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:49:08 PM EST

jihadis, and I recommend everyone else do the same.

I'll bet the CIA and FBI aren't (5.00 / 1) (#33)
by Jeralyn on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:09:51 AM EST

going to get any sleep for days as they have to spend even more time monitoring the internet chatter and wiretaps for threats.

I think Davis' comment (5.00 / 1) (#44)
by cal1942 on Mon May 02, 2011 at 01:04:07 AM EST

is short sighted.

bin Laden's wealth started al qaida, but, it's continued operation was funded by money from many sources. IMO, some of that money went to al qaida because of bin Laden. His death may very well reduce al qaida's financial support.

bin Laden's leadership in that regard is probably irreplaceable.

IMO, al qaida has been badly damaged and the political benefit to Obama directly will be significant. This event may also benefit Democrats in general. For decades the GOP has blustered that they were better suited to protect the American people. bin Laden's death during a Democratic administration may help dispel that ridiculous notion. The GOP can't attack Democrats regarding national security and if they try, it will, IMO, backfire very badly.

We can hope that this event may even give Democrats enough street cred to make significant cuts in military spending, the category we should be cutting.

Remember, after Korea, Eisenhower, a retired General and GOP president cut defense spending as did GHW Bush after the Berlin Wall fell. Clinton was then able to make further cuts.

At one point (5.00 / 1) (#46)
by AlkalineDave on Mon May 02, 2011 at 01:18:25 AM EST

at another

Premeditated taking of life is murder last time I looked.

then another

killed or murdered is semantics at this point. He was killed, he wasn't captured and brought to stand before a court where justice could be delivered after a fair trial

Sorry, but which is it. And your statements are giving strong inductive reasoning to believing that a trial (wherever under what auspices I'm not sure) is the only place that justice can be dispensed. Really? Do you think we could arrest him easily. I can tell you as MI we wanted him alive for interrogation if possible. The fact that he resisted means we had to defend U.S. life. You make no mention of the fact that no U.S. life or civilian life was lost -- an exceptional feat. Osama is known to travel with wife(s) and kids and there are none reported dead...

Bin Laden (5.00 / 2) (#49)
by lentinel on Mon May 02, 2011 at 04:42:40 AM EST

Obama's speech made me very uneasy.

even though I know our "justice" (5.00 / 1) (#54)
by seabos84 on Mon May 02, 2011 at 07:48:22 AM EST

$y$tem i$ a joke,

we should have put the guy on trial.

they put the nazis on trial.

EVERYONE should have a freaking trial.

oh yeah - and when EVERYONE has the same mouthpiece acce$$, then we'll have justice, instead of ju$tice.

rmm.

: We put some Nazis (none / 0) (#63)
by brodie on Mon May 02, 2011 at 09:07:06 AM EST

on trial. Some of the big fish -- Hitler, Bohrmann, Eichmann, Mengele, etc -- either took their own lives* or escaped.
Nice, ideal even, if we could have captured OBL alive, but very unlikely to have occurred given his fierce armed resistance. (And the notion of a military tribunal -- which the Obama admin would have been heavily pressured into undertaking -- rendering "justice" doesn't quite measure up to the sort of justice our regular system is capable of producing.)
Though it will be interesting as always to see more details about this raid. Usually the initial reports are a little rosier and favorable to the raiding party than those which are revealed later.
* some questions remain whether Herr Hitler and Bohrmann actually died in Berlin; the physical evidence brought to Moscow after the war seems not to fully check out

Well said. However my visceral response is (4.40 / 5) (#3)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:31:14 PM EST

fu obl and the horse you rode in on.

Really well said (none / 0) (#1)
by bordenl on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:25:58 PM EST

If Bin Laden had been captured alive, the United States would be faced with the humiliation of having sabotaged themselves out of giving him a real trial.

Had the U.S. captured Bin Laden (none / 0) (#6)
by oculus on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:32:33 PM EST

alive, he would soon be indefinitely detained at Guantanamo.


: Yeah, I thought about that (none / 0) (#65)
by sj on Mon May 02, 2011 at 10:18:01 AM EST

last night when I said I would have preferred that he be apprehended rather than killed outright.
Then I thought of the Bradley Manning treatment and decided to just to keep quiet. There is no good response for me to make at this point. No point in condemning "what if" scenarios when the "here we are" scenarios are bad enough.

Definitely true (none / 0) (#2)
by lilburro on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:28:24 PM EST

One terrorist is dead. There are thousands more waiting to take his place

My question is, is OBL's charisma and value the same as it was in 2001 in 2011? Certainly charisma had something to do with it. IMO anyway. One terrorist is not the same as another.

Oh, and, JM, you might note that (none / 0) (#8)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:33:50 PM EST

they've done little to address the reasons so many hate them.

I did (none / 0) (#11)
by Jeralyn on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:35:59 PM EST

I said "We've done little to address the reasons they hate America."


You have no idea how much I respect you. (none / 0) (#14)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:40:16 PM EST

You really misread my comment.

"They," the obl acolytes,have done little to address the reasons so many hate them.


sorry, (none / 0) (#23)
by Jeralyn on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:50:52 PM EST

I didn't get your comment. I just looked up the word acolyte and it means someone who lights candles or a religious companion, attendant, or helper. So you are saying terrorists should address why people hate them? How would that abate attacks? I don't think that makes much sense.


: OK, I'll make it clear (I hope) (none / 0) (#28)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:02:16 AM EST

There are two sides to every conflict.
imo, obl's "advocates/sympathisers/supporters/acolytes" have done little to address the reasons why so many hate them.

Do any of you feel safer (none / 0) (#13)
by Jeralyn on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:38:33 PM EST

tonight? I don't. I feel less safe, like we're now going to be waiting for the other shoe to drop as groups vie to take revenge for Osama's killing. I'm glad I don't have to fly anywhere soon. I don't think stadiums are going to be safe either.

: I was asking myself that (5.00 / 2) (#16)
by ruffian on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:45:26 PM EST

And no, not really. Short term , most definitely not. Maybe very long term it will help, but I think it is impossible to predict.

: I (personally) only feel safer (5.00 / 2) (#34)
by nycstray on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:21:27 AM EST

against terror attacks because I no longer live in NYC/area. Now earthquakes . . . ? 'nother story ;)

: Also another good reason not to be in that (none / 0) (#18)
by ruffian on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:46:29 PM EST

crowd at the WH.

: If anything, a little less safe (none / 0) (#20)
by andgarden on Sun May 01, 2011 at 11:46:34 PM EST

: Since 911,if you live, work or go to school in NYC (none / 0) (#27)
by byteb on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:00:56 AM EST

there's always that awareness that at any moment another attack could happen. Whether OBL is dead or alive, murdered, held for trial or not, there is no safe or safer from a terrorist attack in NY.

2 things that help Obama's re-election: (none / 0) (#35)
by thereyougo on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:22:46 AM EST

This and the birth certificate.

Now the freepers, tea baggers and GOP who have tried to paint the president into a corner have 2 less distractions to blame on Obama even the bad economy, or joblessness, you know the important things in the country.

They'll see that Obama got the enemy and he's proven himself to be the real deal. You know, in their typically simplistic view of up is down and down is up life.

: thanks but let's leave the (none / 0) (#36)
by Jeralyn on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:31:13 AM EST

birthers and econcomy out of thisparticular discussion and stick to Osama and terrorism and how killing Osama may help Obama politically.

Does "world wide terror alert" include (none / 0) (#37)
by oculus on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:35:47 AM EST

Philadelphia? Hope not. Enroute tomorrow.

I would bet money (none / 0) (#38)
by andgarden on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:43:44 AM EST

that Osama never so much as said the word "Philadelphia." If you're spending any amount of time there, go to Sang Kee. Best wonton noodle soup in the world IMO. Get it with roast pork.

(Sorry, off topic, I know. . .)


Cheesesteak recommend? (none / 0) (#40)
by oculus on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:51:56 AM EST

: Dalessandros in Roxborough (none / 0) (#43)
by andgarden on Mon May 02, 2011 at 01:01:33 AM EST

link. You probably need a car to get there from Center City, though.

Mi Mi Mi Miii (none / 0) (#51)
by Rojas on Mon May 02, 2011 at 07:37:46 AM EST

do i feel safer tonite? hmmmmmmmmmmmm, (none / 0) (#39)
by cpinva on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:44:24 AM EST

tough question. let's put it this way, i feel a lot safer tonite, than i did during the cuban missile crisis. by comparison, OBL was small change.

sure, it would have been nice if OBL had been captured, given a fair trial, and then put away in a deep, dark hole for all eternity. two things:

that was, more likely than not, never going to happen. he wasn't going to allow himself to be taken alive, our desires notwithstanding. and,
were he taken alive, tried, convicted, etc., the end result, vis a vis his cohorts would be exactly the same, with the added possibility of them attempting to get him free from whatever hole he was put in, if he wasn't executed.

i don't know about his charm & charisma, but i do know about his cash, which is why he was in afghanistan to begin with: he paid the taliban to let him and his adoring fan club stay there. basically, it was a business proposition for the taliban, ideology had little or nothing to do with it.

given that OBL's cash was the primary financing source for his group, the bigger question becomes: without that source of cash, what holds them together, and provides the resources to carry on in his absence?

What makes you think the U.S. gov't, (none / 0) (#41)
by oculus on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:54:23 AM EST

would bring OBL to trial? Wouldn't the GOP and NYC object?

they could have (none / 0) (#42)
by Jeralyn on Mon May 02, 2011 at 12:58:34 AM EST

given him a military commissions trial and sought the death penalty. Not the fairest, but fairer than killing him and claiming justice was done.


: Agree. (none / 0) (#45)
by oculus on Mon May 02, 2011 at 01:08:04 AM EST

to fear reprisals (none / 0) (#47)
by observed on Mon May 02, 2011 at 02:32:24 AM EST

For a just act is cowardice. The US has fomented terrorism through manifold transgressions, but this act was just. It will also be respected, in my opinion.

one man's terrorist, (none / 0) (#56)
by cpinva on Mon May 02, 2011 at 08:25:39 AM EST

is another's freedom fighter. just ask the british, during our very own revolution.

i would say the continued efficacy of al quada is, to a large extent, dependent on how critical to their infrastructure, planning & management OBL was. he was not a stupid man. vile yes (depending on your perspective), stupid no.

if he had decentralized his organization's command & control structure, his death simply creates a martyr for the cause, it doesn't markedly weaken the entity itself. look at the drug cartels: their leadership is constantly being captured/killed, and someone rises up to fill that vacuum.


: Sure. I guess what I'm saying is that (none / 0) (#68)
by observed on Mon May 02, 2011 at 02:44:05 PM EST

there's no reason to fear reprisals more if OBL was killed rather than captured alive.
Perhaps we should fear reprisals, but this is a separate issue from whether he should (or could) have been captured alive.

Orders were given Friday April 29 (none / 0) (#48)
by standingup on Mon May 02, 2011 at 02:33:36 AM EST

to execute the mission so it was already a done deal prior to the Correspondent's dinner. Multiple sources including Jake Tapper, Politico and New York Times.

And President's attendance at correspondents (none / 0) (#62)
by BackFromOhio on Mon May 02, 2011 at 08:57:14 AM EST

dinner part of keeping the action under raps. Recall JFK's going to Chicago to meet Daley at a crucial time in the planning of response to Cuban Missile Crisis. I have serious issues with the celebration of the action, but the President's attendance at the dinner is not one of them.


: I am not entirely (none / 0) (#67)
by standingup on Mon May 02, 2011 at 10:36:50 AM EST

comfortable with celebrating a death myself. However, I can't begrudge victims of September 11 or other victims of the numerous acts violence and terrorism committed at Bin Laden's behest for feeling a sense of celebration at his demise.

Brilliantly said (none / 0) (#50)
by Nemi on Mon May 02, 2011 at 06:18:36 AM EST

and I (fwiw) agree with everything you said, Jeralyn.

I cannot understand cheering his murder. Murder is not a cause for jubilation.

No it's not. It also made me quite uneasy to hear people, gathered at Ground Zero, victoriously chant "U.S.A., U.S.A., U.S.A. ..."

It wasn't justice (none / 0) (#59)
by Chuck0 on Mon May 02, 2011 at 08:44:56 AM EST

it was revenge. Americans are a vengeful people and we relish our bloodlust. After all, that's really all the death penalty is, revenge. It's not justice. Just feel good revenge.

Agree with Jeralyn (none / 0) (#61)
by BackFromOhio on Mon May 02, 2011 at 08:53:39 AM EST

Celebrating the killing of human life bespeaks an eye for an eye attitude. If indeed, UBL was killed because of resistance, why was this not communicated as part of the initial announcement? So we could look more macho?

Yup (none / 0) (#69)
by DancingOpossum on Tue May 03, 2011 at 07:17:50 AM EST

I am horrified by the "USA!"-chanting hordes, as if we've accomplished something really great and awesome when what we've committed -- and not just in this case, but all over the ME -- is simply cold-blooded murder. The slaughter of those Libyan children in Gaddafi's house is ignored, Obama's ongoing slaughter of civilians is ignored, the very fact that Obama proudly proclaimed that he ordered a kill -- in what sane country does all of this state-sanctioned murder merit cheering? But we are not a sane country any longer, it seems.