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Monday Night Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon May 02, 2011 at 07:33:36 PM EST
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The accounts by unnamed administration officials on the strike against the Osama bin Laden compound diverge on so many key points, I'm not spending any more time reading them right now. Everytime I start to write something up, another news story pops up with contrary information.

Whether it's Osama bin Laden, his courier, the bloody bedroom scene where he was killed, what happened to the other bodies, whether the helicopter crashed or was shot down, the blatantly false claim by Republicans that torturing detainees at secret overseas prisons led to the courier who led them to Osama's hideout, or other news of the day, here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Monday Night Open Thread | 38 comments (38 topical)

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    i think (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by cpinva on Mon May 02, 2011 at 08:31:38 PM EST
    it was that guy from "24" who squeezed out the intel on OBL's whereabouts. that's why the show got cancelled; it was all a CIA front, and when they got the info they wanted, there was no reason to continue it.

    prove me wrong! :)

    It became too much junk (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Mon May 02, 2011 at 09:26:12 PM EST
    So I went to my daughter's for the afternoon to see the grandbabes and have fun.  My daughter was upset though about her facebook.  She has a much different facebook experience than I do.  Mine is all selected adults and hers is her whole high school here.  She said that some of the people on her facebook feed had written things like, "We got Osama, now we just need to get Obama"

    I asked if any of them realized that the reason why we got Osama was because of Obama but she said they didn't care, you can't speak facts to the racist hate down here.  I realized though that as much as I don't like living here, because I've been able to be very selective about what I am exposed to down here I live sheltered from a lot of the hate out there.  She was upset though.  I suppose if my peers were expressing such things I would be upset too.

    I am happy (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon May 02, 2011 at 10:02:43 PM EST
    That there are people standing up for what's right. For obvious reasons I don't have many acquaintances willing to say that kind of stuff to me but I know it is out there floating just beyond my earshot.

    Sad but good to know that some kids have been raised the right way.

    Parent

    It's sad, these kids are 21 (none / 0) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Mon May 02, 2011 at 10:55:46 PM EST
    If you can't talk to them about facts and facts don't matter...then it is impossible for them to be reflecting original thought on this matter.  They are just using their lack of frontal lobe development to say the things that their parents believe but won't say because they fear being fully exposed.

    Miss Laura at Dkos and many other Southerners insist that the South isn't a haven for racism anymore like it used to be.  All I can say to that is what a load of BS.  We have a new generation out there coming up, and they are exposing their parents and I'm glad for that.  It all needs a great deal of sunlight applied to it.  The secret clubs need to be revealed, and apparently if I pay attention to my daughter's facebook feed I stand a chance of discovering who has parents in those secret clubs.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#35)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 03, 2011 at 05:49:41 AM EST
    when you see this behavior in the younger generation it really is disheartening. I've seen it in my own family. The attitudes of the adults passed down to the children. Fortunately, though a lot of them do reject this way of thinking.

    Parent
    It's (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 03, 2011 at 05:47:14 AM EST
    everywhere MT. I have friends from HS on FB who started crap right the next morning. They didn't say racist stuff but they bought into conspiracy theories regarding being buried at sea and some were shopping the Obama was able to do this because of Bush.

    Parent
    Like I said time and again (2.00 / 2) (#2)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 02, 2011 at 08:09:44 PM EST
    waterboarding works.

    The revelation that intelligence gleaned from the CIA's so-called black sites helped kill bin Laden was seen as vindication for many intelligence officials who have been repeatedly investigated and criticized for their involvement in a program that involved the harshest interrogation methods in U.S. history.

    "We got beat up for it, but those efforts led to this great day," said Marty Martin, a retired CIA officer who for years led the hunt for bin Laden

    .

    Link

    Ah, how great waterboarding is. Might have (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by tigercourse on Mon May 02, 2011 at 08:23:58 PM EST
    helped us find Bin Laden in just 10 short years. What a miracle process.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#29)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:02:51 AM EST


    Parent
    Survey says.... (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by Tony on Mon May 02, 2011 at 09:11:44 PM EST
    Nope.

    Hilarious/sad that the Tennesseean left this paragraph out of the AP story.  It immediately follows Marty Martin's quote:

    Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.



    Parent
    Thanks, Beat me to it. (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Romberry on Mon May 02, 2011 at 09:19:51 PM EST
    The facts are inconvenient for people who want to find reasons to torture.

    Parent
    Read the whole thing. (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by Romberry on Mon May 02, 2011 at 09:22:55 PM EST
    The article doesn't say what you think it does.

    Why are you so damned determined to see us torture people? Why do you think you know better than the long experience of history which shows unequivocally that torture does not produce reliable information so much as it produces what the torturers want to hear? Try paying attention to some of the things that US POW's were tortured into saying during that awful war. Try paying attention to what those who were tortured say about torture. Hell, just try paying attention.

    Parent

    Jim it's totally a false meme (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Jeralyn on Mon May 02, 2011 at 10:32:59 PM EST
    Read Marcy.

    And then the wikileaks documents including the report on al Libi. It's dated September 2008 and consists of changes in his account.

     

    (S//NF) Summary of Changes: The following outlines changes to detainee's assessment since the last JTF-GTMO assessment. (Changes in this assessment will be annotated next to the footnote.

    The changes pertain to his account of events and reporting of his activities.

    Note the following has footnotes, and is not from his first statments provided while waterboarding was occurring.

     

    In July 2003, detainee received a letter from UBL's designated courier, Maulawi Abd al-Khaliq Jan, requesting detainee take on the responsibility of collecting donations, organizing travel, and distributing funds to families in Pakistan. UBL stated detainee would be the official messenger between UBL and others in Pakistan.12 In mid-2003, detainee moved his family to Abbottabad, PK and worked between Abbottabad and Peshawar.

    I don't expect you to be convinced, but you can't post false information here. You may state your opinion (up to four times) but don't present it as fact. Your links provide no support except the self-serving statements of others to support your claim.

    al Libi is but one example of how the waterboarding didn't help. There are numerous articles out there with greater detail and I hope you all read them rather than take Jim's word for it.

    Parent

    I have finally achieved the appropriate zen-like (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by ruffian on Tue May 03, 2011 at 08:44:16 AM EST
    detachment from your comments! Now I just smile.

    Parent
    Jim, link doesn't go to the (none / 0) (#3)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon May 02, 2011 at 08:13:04 PM EST
    story you quoted from.


    Parent
    Thanks, Jeff (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 02, 2011 at 08:45:24 PM EST
    Link


    Parent
    I don't think (none / 0) (#5)
    by lilburro on Mon May 02, 2011 at 08:20:11 PM EST
    that necessarily means anything.  If Martin thinks waterboarding produced the intelligence, just say it.  

    Parent
    In fact Rumsfeld himself says (none / 0) (#9)
    by lilburro on Mon May 02, 2011 at 09:04:06 PM EST
    from newsmax

    "The United States Department of Defense did not do waterboarding for interrogation purposes to anyone. It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding."

    There's simply no conclusive information about how any tip was received at all.

    Parent

    I'm pretty sure that the DOD's (none / 0) (#13)
    by Anne on Mon May 02, 2011 at 09:23:19 PM EST
    definition of "normal" and "harsh" are not mine, and I don't think we have any reason to believe them when they say it wasn't waterboarding.

    And parsing the statement a little more, if the DOD did not do waterboarding for interrogation purposes, what did it do waterboarding for?  Entertainment?

    I'm not sure I will ever believe whatever story they finally settle on...as it is, I keep hearing Jon Lovitz's "Liar" character saying things like, "yeah...the courier...that's the ticket."

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#27)
    by lilburro on Mon May 02, 2011 at 11:26:00 PM EST
    I don't take anything Rumsfeld says at face value.  I am just tweaking jim.  But I think it's telling that he won't even crow about some of Bush's policies working.  If they wanted to make their case they could.  The only people vaguely trying to justify everything done in the darkest of dark days of the Bush Admin are the same CIA folk who have been trying to make that case for years.  And it still doesn't work.

    Parent
    And based on (none / 0) (#28)
    by lilburro on Mon May 02, 2011 at 11:33:43 PM EST
    more detailed reporting coming out now, the reason we caught bin Laden seems somewhat straightforward - we put people on the ground, we used our brains instead of torture.  Capable Americans did the job that "ticking time bomb" torture theory couldn't do.

    Parent
    What's really fascinating (none / 0) (#30)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:07:41 AM EST
    is that they never did have anything resembling confirmation that he was actually there.  Nobody ever saw him.  They just made a lot of fairly reasonable assumptions that added up to UBL, but they didn't know until they burst into the room and found him there.

    Parent
    liburro (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 03, 2011 at 10:48:08 AM EST
    Sorry I didn't get back to you but we've been having at bit of weather problem around here. Sometimes the real world gets in the way of blogging.

    I guess since this is an open thread I could tout Bush's "accomplishments" but for his fans they speak and it would be a waste of bandwidth for the Democrats. As for me, I'll just remind you that I am neither and have long noted I am liberal on social issues while for a strong defense. That should tell you what I think of Bush.

    That seems to annoy many on the Left as well as the Right. (I wouldn't want to miss anyone.)

    Now, as to the question at hand. Was waterboarding used in questioning some prisoners? Yes. There is no doubt.

    Do most of the CIA folks who did it want to deny it? Yes. As I said, they remain concerned that Holder will convince Obama and they will wake up one day being charged with something or other.

    Now, did waterboarding obtain information that was helpful? I gave a quote and a link. The first link was in error (haste makes waste)the second was to my source. The second one was to the source.

    Do you agree? Obviously not. Do I agree? Yes. And I just heard/saw Rep Peter King say so. Does he know? Well, I would say he knows more than you, I or any of the sources we both read with avid interest.

    So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    'Nuff said. Time to see if I can work in the yard without miring up to my knees.

    Parent

    Perhaps (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by lilburro on Tue May 03, 2011 at 10:50:15 AM EST
    you will have time to catch up on your reading today, as your source was updated with more accurate information.

    Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.



    Parent
    Re Bush (none / 0) (#42)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:00:36 PM EST

    I could tout Bush's "accomplishments" but for his fans they speak

    That would be an interesting thing to watch.

    (CBS)  

    President Bush will leave office as one of the most unpopular departing presidents in history, according to a new CBS News/New York Times poll showing Mr. Bush's final approval rating at 22 percent.

    Seventy-three percent say they disapprove of the way Mr. Bush has handled his job as president over the last eight years.

    Mr. Bush's final approval rating is the lowest final rating for an outgoing president since Gallup began asking about presidential approval more than 70 years ago.

    The rating is far below the final ratings of recent two-term presidents Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan, who both ended their terms with a 68 percent approval rating, according to CBS News polling.

    But of course, his approval rating has soared since then............

    CBS News Link

    Parent

    Peter King (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:41:16 PM EST
    doesn't know his a** from his elbow. He's not a source. Documents are sources. Try the Wikileaks documents on Guantanamo.

    Parent
    i understand (none / 0) (#31)
    by cpinva on Tue May 03, 2011 at 12:55:07 AM EST
    that he also revealed the location of the holy grail, under waterboarding, as well. dr. jones appreciated that bit of information.

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon May 02, 2011 at 07:38:25 PM EST
    you are going to have to wait a few days to a week to get most of the story. We'll probably never know the whole story but as bits and pieces come out, we'll be able to get a bigger picture.

    We don't know whether it was (none / 0) (#4)
    by Harry Saxon on Mon May 02, 2011 at 08:18:45 PM EST
    waterboarding that gave us the info in the first place, but thanks for demonstrating what jumping to a conclusion looks like.

    et al (none / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 02, 2011 at 09:50:42 PM EST
    Of course DOD will deny.. They're all scared of Obama and Holder.

    ;-)

    Of course you're rigjht, PPJ (none / 0) (#32)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue May 03, 2011 at 01:40:11 AM EST
    Which is why Jeralyn asked you to quit writing about your false assertion.............

    Parent
    The bottom line for me (none / 0) (#19)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon May 02, 2011 at 10:04:19 PM EST
    Is that a very bad man is gone and a democrat made it so. Our team, despite it's faults, does good stuff.

    Regardless of who was in the (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Anne on Tue May 03, 2011 at 07:00:27 AM EST
    catbird seat - Democrat or Republican - making the decision to execute the plan, there are countless people who played a role, and I suspect that not all of them were Democrats.

    I say this not to take away from Obama making the decision, which is to his credit that he did, and that he stuck with and allowed this operation to play out, but to make sure we don't forget that the many people involved in this operation were probably not functioning from a political point of view, nor was the securing of anyone's political fortune the driving force behind their performance.

    Parent

    Obama said he was willing (none / 0) (#26)
    by lilburro on Mon May 02, 2011 at 11:20:31 PM EST
    to do this in 2007.  And he did it.  He deserves a ton of kudos for that.

    Parent
    Every November (none / 0) (#20)
    by andgarden on Mon May 02, 2011 at 10:09:57 PM EST
    local radio stations switch to all Christmas music. Likewise, local TV news has switched to all Bin Laden. You would be forgiven for thinking that it was September of 2001.

    I liked them better when they gave me the weather and supermarket medical cures.

    Oops, turns out they're going to do (none / 0) (#21)
    by andgarden on Mon May 02, 2011 at 10:13:44 PM EST
    a "toxic milk!" story after all.

    Parent
    Ah, a return to normalcy! And so soon! (none / 0) (#37)
    by ruffian on Tue May 03, 2011 at 08:42:28 AM EST


    Parent
    And yet (none / 0) (#41)
    by sj on Tue May 03, 2011 at 10:56:47 AM EST
    At work still have not heard even one conversation about it.

    Parent
    Monday Night Open Thread | 38 comments (38 topical)

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