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Thursday News and Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:10:46 PM EST
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The defense is making closing arguments in the trial of former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich.

The jury in the Tahawwur Rana trial is still deliberating. Yesterday they had two questions, one about Ilyas Kashmiri, who is still either dead or alive. They wanted to know if "Pasha" was affiliated with ISI or LET and if Kashmiri was affiliated with LET. (The third count against Rana charges him with providing material support to LeT.)

Rep. Anthony Wiener said again today he won't resign. While I don't care about this story at all, I think he's toast.

Newt Gingrich aides resigned en masse today, including Rob Johnson, Sam Dawson, Dave Carney, Katon Dawson and Craig Schoenfeld.

On a more important topic, Radley Balko at Reason examines how many innocent Americans are imprisoned.

BTD and I are busy at our respective day jobs, here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Carolyn Goodman Elected Mayor of Las Vegas | Verdict: Tahawwur Rana Guilty on Two Counts >

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    Thursday News and Open Thread | 155 comments (155 topical)

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    Ultimately we all are (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:45:24 PM EST
    I anticipate that he will serve out his term and retire to something else at the end. That will be out of necessity, because he likely won't have a district to run in.

    But he has done nothing resignation worthy.

    it seems that (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:03:20 PM EST
    more and more of his Democratic colleagues in the House and the Senate disagree with you

    Parent
    I do not expect them to have any principles (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:08:46 PM EST


    Parent
    agree w/you on that (none / 0) (#27)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:10:49 PM EST
    but of course they could take their lack of principles & go either way

    Parent
    If I may, (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by lentinel on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:04:10 PM EST
    I disagree.

    Apparently he replied to some women who contacted him wanting to discuss politics by trying to turn the conversation into sex talk.
    The photos he sent were also unsolicited.
    Can you imagine how disgusting and unsettling it must have been to receive one of those creepy photos?

    I think his behavior represents an unbalanced mind.

    I think his lying about it represents an unbalanced mind.

    He should resign.

    Parent

    yes (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:07:31 PM EST
    I think his behavior represents an unbalanced mind.

    I think his lying about it represents an unbalanced mind.

    this is not about sex, any more than rape is about sex -  in both cases, sex is the vector or medium for pathology

    Parent

    I've avoided watching the coverage (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:08:14 PM EST
    for the past few days, but I have not seen anything that I would characterize as you have. And frankly, my impulse is to tell you that you may not characterize the "mind" of individuals you don't know.

    Parent
    fair enough (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:11:34 PM EST
    i do reserve the right to characterize his behavior

    Parent
    How (none / 0) (#30)
    by lentinel on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:18:29 PM EST
    would you have felt had it been you who contacted the man to speak about political issues and in turn had been sent a disgusting obscene photo?

    I would have felt a sense of violation.
    It is, to say what I really feel, a sort of rape.

    As to my characterization of his mind...
    I feel entitled to do so. His behavior betrays the state of his mind.
    This guy is, to be charitable, screaming for help.

    I'm all for his receiving psychiatric counseling, but on his own time as a private citizen.

    Parent

    i really disagree with this (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by CST on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:34:23 PM EST
    disgusted, yes.  Violated, not really.

    I dunno, maybe it's that growing up in the internet age unsolicited p*rn is quasi-expected online.  Click on the wrong website and "whoops".  It's pretty much impossible to live in a co-ed dorm in college without some unsolicited p*rn being thrown your way - by whomever.  I've never felt violated by it though.

    And it's not like he was standing in a room with these women where he would have been threatening in any kind of way.  It's pretty easy to shut down an online conversation.  Just hit the "x" button.

    Really, I just also don't think nudity is that big of a deal.  But then, I lived in Europe for a while, where unsolicited p*rn takes place on network tv or in locker rooms.  It's just a picture.

    Parent

    this is not about sex or nudity or porn (5.00 / 4) (#50)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:47:46 PM EST
    i haven't heard of any men who received crotch shots from Rep. Weiner after engaging him on the political issues of the day

    have you?

    this is about someone using a position of power to impose at least some amount of unsolicited/unwanted quasi-sexual contact on others (women) who would likely not even have been tweeting with him except for his position of power - & frankly even a single instance of this would be enough

    as far back as the fall of 1991 our society was put on notice about what that kind of behavior is called & what it means

    Parent

    Enough with the Catharine Mckinnon/ (3.00 / 2) (#71)
    by observed on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:35:52 PM EST
    Andrea Dworkin viewpoint. He did not commit a crime. Calls for him to resign are ridiculous, and yes, what Clarence Thomas did was worse.
    The difference is the credible threat of actual sexual contact.

    Parent
    again (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:45:50 PM EST
    where did i say Rep. Weiner committed a crime?

    where did i invoke Andrea Dworkin, for godsake?

    i am talking about an individual in a position of power who took advantage of his position of power to impose uninvited sexualized contact on others, contact that used sex as its medium but had little or nothing to do with actual sex

    i am talking about a form of sexual harassment, a concept that all Americans should be familiar with now that the concept's glory days, during Clarence Thomas's SC nomination hearings, are 20 years in our collective past

    i did not say that any crime has been committed

    Parent

    Not at all uninvited (none / 0) (#130)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 01:53:44 AM EST
    Read up on the exchanges.  Several of them are on the Web.  He's apparently entirely right when he says they were "consensual."

    Parent
    of course i am only talking (4.67 / 3) (#131)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 02:00:50 AM EST
    about the ones that were uninvited

    otherwise, who cares?

    Parent

    Addams Stop Already (1.00 / 1) (#67)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:28:17 PM EST
    An welcomed wiener pic is an welcomed wiener pic.

    Unwarranted pics do not equal rape either by definition or in the legal system.  He didn't commit a crime, quit classifying it as a felony to make your lame brain point.

    The only scandal here is the lying.

    Parent

    excuse me (5.00 / 4) (#73)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:38:10 PM EST
    i used the word "rape" in precisely one place & precisely one context:

    this is not about sex, any more than rape is about sex -  in both cases, sex is the vector or medium for pathology

    maybe you meant to respond to someone else's comment?

    as for "stop already" - why? because i'm making you uncomfortable?

    tough

    Parent

    This reads like a preview of Maureen Dowd's (3.00 / 2) (#42)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:36:51 PM EST
    column. Blech.

    Parent
    Stawman (none / 0) (#129)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 01:51:56 AM EST
    He doesn't appear to have done that-- at all.  He appears to have flirted, gradually escalated the sexy content of the communications, and when the women responded with enthusiasm and further sexy talk, he sent one or two of them a photo.

    Very different.  From everything I've read, he never once did what you describe, sent off a raunchy photo out of the blue to some unsuspecting female who was simply trying to talk politics.

    The exchanges with a couple of the women in question have been printed in full on the Web.  I suggest you look them up and read them.


    Parent

    sounds like you (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 02:02:19 AM EST
    are the one who needs to "read up"

    no one is talking about the consensual contacts

    not all were consensual

    Parent

    Still... (5.00 / 3) (#148)
    by lentinel on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 10:02:04 AM EST
    He appears to have flirted, gradually escalated the sexy content of the communications, and when the women responded with enthusiasm and further sexy talk, he sent one or two of them a photo.

    To me, this is enough.
    He is the one to have altered a serious communication from a woman into sex talk. Whether it was gradual or rapid doesn't change my opinion. Even calling her "honey" or "sweetie" would be enough to turn my stomach.

    That's just my reaction.


    Parent

    Obama lied (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Warren Terrer on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 05:03:13 PM EST
    when he said he was going to close Gitmo, when he said he would end the wars in the middle east, when he said he would make government more accountable, when he said he would do everything possible for working families in resolving the economic crisis.

    Can you imagine how disgusting and unsettling it must have been to be on the receiving end of all those lies? I think it represents an unbalanced mind. He should resign.

    See how ridiculous you sound by claiming that lying about a sex pic is the greatest offence a politician can ever commit? He lied because the truth was of no real consequence to his job or the country, but very embarrassing to him personally, not because he has an unbalanced mind.

    Ok now I can't believe I finally posted a comment about this but I am just so sick and tired of this ridiculous 'gotcha' standard of when a politician should resign.

    Parent

    Agreement... (none / 0) (#157)
    by lentinel on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 08:34:16 PM EST
    Obama lied when he said he was going to close Gitmo, when he said he would end the wars in the middle east, when he said he would make government more accountable, when he said he would do everything possible for working families in resolving the economic crisis.

    Yes.
    He should resign.
    I wish he would.

    Parent

    A man (5.00 / 4) (#81)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 05:07:42 PM EST
    in a position of power to make laws in our country sends unsolicited inappropriate pictures to women.  There is no implication of consent between the two parties at the onset of the "relationship".  If these women had objected, would they have been ensured recourse without retaliation?  Is there a potential intimidation factor here?  I would say yes.

    I would consider that sexual harassment, nearly sexual assault, similar to internet bullying.  It should be illegal.

    This is definitely different from Vitter.  

    Parent

    I'm not up on the facts of (none / 0) (#140)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 06:03:46 AM EST
    whether there were or were not unsolicited photos sent.

    If there were, then I agree this becomes something a bit more problematic. Sending unsolicited photos of your crotch seems akin to exposing yourself to a woman in public or other unwanted sexual advances. And the pathology of that behavior is pretty well understood by now.

    Still, I do not know all the facts yet about the exchanges between Wiener and these women.

    Parent

    "Ilyas Kashmiri . . . (5.00 / 5) (#43)
    by Towanda on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:37:39 PM EST
    . . . who is still either dead or alive."

    Yep, that about covers the possibilities.

    I am reminded of a marvelous running joke on SNL, when it used to be funny.

    Franco! LOL (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by christinep on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 08:18:56 PM EST


    Parent
    Excellent; someone else (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Towanda on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 09:29:33 PM EST
    is soooo old as to remember that from SNL.:-)

    Parent
    Speaking of political meltdowns, (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:44:51 PM EST
    looks like the Newtster's campaign has just gone through an historic mass resignation, both his national campaign top advisers, and all his IA staff apparently.

    Couldn't happen to a more unlikable, grinchier guy, who never had a chance anyway, but who, incredibly, decided to go on vacation to Greece and Turkey just a few weeks after declaring his candidacy.  Strange dude.  Almost acting in ways deliberately intended to remove any possible chance he had of getting the nom.

    Are there psychologists out there who specialize in politically abnormal behavior?  If so, I've got at least two potential clients for you ...

    I knew (none / 0) (#87)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 05:31:44 PM EST
    he wasn't going to last. If there's anybody who's more full of hot air than Newt in politics, i have no idea who that might be.

    I had predicted he wouldn't last until the end of the year. Now I'm guessing he won't last through the summer.

    Parent

    A shame -- he's colorful, usually (none / 0) (#106)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 07:28:53 PM EST
    good for a juicy if wacky quote, and then there were all those references to Breakfast at Tiffany's and Newt "Holly Golightly" Gingrich I looked forward to posting.

    Of course, if he's going to step aside sooner rather than later to be replaced, essentially, by that Gov Goodhair of TX, then we won't have lost much by way of entertainment value.

    I will miss seeing Fallista -- Callista? -- a.k.a. The Third Mrs Newt Gingrich, those bulging big eyes and the unnaturally stretched skin.

    Parent

    I don't know why Wiener is driven to (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:47:45 PM EST
    have sexual "conversations" with women he doesn't know except through Twitter or Facebook, but whatever that is, it becomes my problem - and his constituents' problem - when he cannot effectively do his job.  And while I appreciate that he thought this was "personal" and not "professional" it should be obvious to most people at this point that Weiner's thought processes may be somewhat dysfunctional; the question, "what were you thinking?" that has been asked so often is more or less an indication of that, in my opinion.

    His wife being pregnant?  That's being used to magnify the "ick" factor, to add to the voyeuristic element the media always likes to inject into these kinds of stories.  We already know how much fun the media has bringing people down, and she's now being dragged into this to hurry the takedown; with public sentiment headed into "he obviously doesn't care enough about his pregnant wife and unborn child enough to step down and out of the spotlight" territory, I would be very surprised if he lasts past 11:00 pm EDT tomorrow (he'll want to resign after the east coast news cycle).

    Neither Weiner nor the media have comported themselves with grace, maturity or dignity; it is too bad that the media aren't going to STFU until Weiner gives them what they want, but if he had been thinking with the big head instead of the little one all along, he might not have had to subject the entire free world to this entire mess.

    I have little tolerance for stupid to begin with, but I have less of it for people whose stupidity hurts others, and even if he hasn't hurt me personally, he's done some damage to the already weakened liberal brand, and that ticks me off no end.

    And just for the record, this has nothing to do with puritanism; it has to do with the judgment of a sitting United States Representative, who, truth be told, had no idea if the women who contacted him were who they represented themselves to be before he decided to have sexually explicit conversations and send them sexually explicit pictures of himself.  

    If I eliminate all other issues but the (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:22:14 PM EST
    'he's stupid', I still come back to the fact that even with this example of his stupidity, he is smarter than 90% of the rest of the members of Congress.

    Parent
    Which isn't saying much, I don't think. (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 05:50:35 PM EST
    About Weiner or the rest of the Congress.

    The reality is that he is a member of a group that isn't "just like everyone else," and I find it hard to understand how, after seeing one member of that class after another be dragged through the mud because they thought they really had the same kind of private life as "everyone else," and could lie their way out of it, he could have thought that this little indulgence on his part wouldn't ever come to light.  

    But it did.  And now, sadly, the consequences are no longer his to control - something else that should have be burned into the brains of these guys by now.

    Whether Weiner is smarter than 90% of the rest of the Congress or not has been rendered completely irrelevant now; he's given the national and state Democratic party honchos who weren't all that thrilled with him in the first place permission to abandon him, to possibly re-district him out of a seat, and in the meantime, see to it that the most effective thing he will be able to do between now and November, 2012 - if he lasts that long - is warm a seat.

    And that's what ticks me off.

    I would personally prefer it if people's private lives would stay private, if the media would stop digging for salacious dirt and start holding the government accountable for the wars and the economy and all the other things that affect the lives of real people every single day.

    But that, apparently, is not the world we live in, and I have no idea why Anthony Weiner thought he would be the exception to the rule.

    Parent

    Um... (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Tony on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:19:08 PM EST
    Reuters is reporting that Hillary Clinton is going to leave the White House to seek the presidency of the World Bank.

    Wow.

    yes . . . wow (none / 0) (#63)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:24:10 PM EST


    Parent
    wow is right (none / 0) (#70)
    by CST on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:35:29 PM EST
    If she wants it, go for it.

    "If Clinton were to leave State, John Kerry, a close Obama ally who is chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, is among those who could be considered as a possible replacement for her."

    Mixed feelings about this.  He's not really my first choice of who I would want there.  But he's also not really someone I want as senator of my state...  and the state department isn't the worst place he could be.  So I'm a little torn.

    Parent

    Denials (none / 0) (#100)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 06:24:55 PM EST
    are coming from the State Dept

    Parent
    Been wondering what (none / 0) (#128)
    by Amiss on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 01:36:07 AM EST
    she was gonna be up to when she announced that she would not return as SoS for Obama a while back.

    WOW!just WOW ON THE wORLD bANK THO.

    Parent

    Again I say.. HUH????? (4.00 / 4) (#6)
    by observed on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:32:23 PM EST
    What is it with people?
    Are we handing out scarlet letters now?

    Yeah, I don't get it (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:40:20 PM EST
    I have no idea what the fetus has to do with anything. But then I have been accused of being hyper-rational. These kinds of peccadilloes don't even register on the scandal scale to me.

    Edwards is accused of using campaign donations to cover his tracks, which makes that in a whole other league to me.

    Parent

    Conservative viewpoint (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 06:15:16 PM EST
    The infantilization of women especially while pregnant is the conservative position.  Bring out the fainting couch OMG 'how could he do this (yawn) while she's pregnant'!!!!! because we all know women are no longer competent when under the influence of pregnancy hormones and must be protected (from making decisions) at all costs.

    If Weiner should be fired under the guise that this is too much stress for her tender sensibilities, why aren't they arguing (I'm sure Tweety would if he thought of it) that she should be fired because this is too much stress for her delicate condition.

    Parent

    Well, Edwards actually had sex, which (none / 0) (#11)
    by observed on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:44:24 PM EST
    puts him two leagues from what Weiner did.

    Parent
    I see our true colors... (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:57:06 PM EST
    shining through.

    We are still a buncha self-righteous puritans who can't handle the complexity of sexuality.

    I really wish he had come clean from the beginning, just to have a clearer picture of how much our puritan roots still plague us...the lying clouds the issue.  I still don't care, but the lying is more relevant, I can at least understand people being upset by that.

    Parent

    can't disagree w/much of your comment (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:20:39 PM EST
    i feel that Rep. Weiner's relationship w/his wife is between them

    as are Rep. Weiner's online sexual relationships w/consenting adults

    i also feel that Andrew Breitbart & the GOP are scum & that their sole interest is in derailing the career of possibly the most liberal member of Congress

    the issue for me is that at least some of the photos Rep. Weinver sent were unsolicited & apparently not altogether welcome

    that's just creepy & shows a serious lack of judgment

    not to mention all the lying that came after

    this, at least for me, is not about Puritanism, though i can't disagree w/your general remarks on that topic

    Parent

    I hear ya... (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:40:26 PM EST
    Maybe its me, I get a personal plumbing pic in my inbox I think I would chuckle, delete, and get on with my life.  I wouldn't feel victimized...I mean we all got junk, whats the big deal?

    Kids are another story, but that is just pure speculation at this point...I'm not going there absent some evidence.

    Parent

    & by the way (none / 0) (#62)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:22:47 PM EST
    thanks a whole lot for the Phil Collins earworm ;)

    Parent
    Trade ya... (none / 0) (#104)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 06:55:18 PM EST
    I have Cyndi:)

    Parent
    Agreed, the lying gives a sheen (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:24:16 PM EST
    of enlightenment and  a layer of reason to calls for Weiner's resignation. However, in most scandals when claims are made that it isn't the sex, it the sex. Given the mess,  Weiner certainly would have been well-advised to have told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but at first bounce, although it is unclear that if he did so he would find himself in a much different place today--especially when Breitbart continued displaying the products of his political dumpster diving.

    As with President Clinton, the concern it was said,  was not the sex (which created a novel dispute on definitions of sex) but the perjury.  Congressman Weiner did not lie under oath, but he did lie to Wolf Blitzer--not a crime but surely a grave sin.  And, the lying permits Weiner's Democratic party colleagues to shriek with moralist fervor in hope that they will ameliorate the Republicans, maybe even get them to vote to raise the debt ceiling in gratitude.    

    Parent

    Breitbart is the one with the screw loose, (none / 0) (#135)
    by Amiss on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 02:27:50 AM EST
    ateast to me, he is the one that likes to go "dumpster diving" for things with questionable moral proclivities. Just sayin.

    "Weiner certainly would have been well-advised to have told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but at first bounce, although it is unclear that if he did so he would find himself in a much different place today--especially when Breitbart continued displaying the products of his political dumpster diving."

    Parent

    A very nasty fellow. (none / 0) (#146)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 09:16:47 AM EST
    Saw Breitbart on Bill Maher's show a while back (pre-Weiner) and he was beyond disgusting.

    Parent
    Couldn't really get a cleaner picture. (none / 0) (#31)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:19:41 PM EST


    Parent
    As a Weiner constituent (5.00 / 4) (#97)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 06:15:50 PM EST
    I am horrified that the likes of Breitbart et al. and all of the scared-y-cat Dems who are turning on Weiner are being allowed to tell me who my representative in Congress should be.  As will WJC, I do not condone the behavior, but I want this unbelievably clear-thinking, talented, always looking out for the little guy individual representing me in Congress.  For gosh sakes, Geithner didn't pay his taxes, and he's still running the $ show, but Weiner can't make a mistake like this?

    Please..... can we get back to the real problems we face in this country?  And can we find it in our power to remember that Weiner was one of the very few who stuck his neck out on national TV to say that the health care bill was lacking, that we need a true public option, that the "Deal" was wrong, and that we needed to raise taxes and think about shared sacrifice?

    I cannot believe the amount of time and energy that is being spent building a coffin for a talented public servant while Rome burns.

    Parent

    well sure (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 07:45:22 PM EST
    i remember Weiner on the public option too

    which is one reason why people, including me, are so mad at him

    fair or not, you can't be a congressman & tweet your d!ck shot to unknown parties & continue to do so when you know you are being stalked by GOP zealots (read up) and then not expect consequences of the kind we are probably looking at now

    with his lying, Weiner has lost all credibility with his colleagues, who want this yucky story with its graphic illustrations to just go away

    Weiner did this to himself & i am sorry for you & all of us that you are probably going to lose your representative one way or another

    Parent

    At abc blog (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 08:40:04 PM EST
    just saw post indicating that majority of New Yorkers do NOT want Weiner to resign.  I have just written him an email of support, and written to Senator Gillibrand urging her to continue sticking by him.  

    Parent
    Makes sense... (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 08:48:51 PM EST
    I'd dare to say most that do want a resignation do so on strictly political grounds.  Breitbart has no moral objection, to be sure, how could he?

    Parent
    The Repubs have been (none / 0) (#123)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 10:40:52 PM EST
    laying in wait to play gotcha, and when they pounce, the fool Dems are glad to play along.  At least when Bill Clinton was impeached, the Dems criticized his personal behavior but supported his staying in office.

    The Dems seem to have forgotten the party that got them elected.  UGH

    Why is it so difficult to say: "I do not condone the behavior, but I believe it is largely a personal matter between X and his family, and I believe he's served his constituents admirably and should remain in office.  If the Dems would adopt this as a party line and refuse to participate in the Weiner bashing conversation, the so-called conversation would die.

    Let's all get back to the business of solving real problems of real people. We've become the soap opera nation.
     

    Parent

    Apparently, Weiner is not liked (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Towanda on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 11:35:56 PM EST
    by his Dem colleagues, according to several sources.  He is considered arrogant.

    I guess now we can see that for ourselves.

    Parent

    Interesting (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 12:23:33 AM EST
    perhaps he is not liked because he has called them on the carpet over health insurance legislation, the "Deal", and other things.

    Schumer and Gillibrand -- from what I've read, have given public statements of support - at least as of a day or two ago.

    Parent

    those things, yes (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 02:23:20 AM EST
    they have earned him dislike from spineless Dems

    but apparently so have things like this:

    Last year, some members of the New York delegation had carefully managed legislation to provide health coverage to rescue workers and others who had become sick by breathing in toxic dust and fumes at ground zero after the Sept. 11, 2001, attack. The delegation had hoped to attract broader Republican support for the bill.

    But then, as the bill reached the floor, Mr. Weiner not only seized the spotlight, but he also turned the moment into something of a spectacle, loudly denouncing Republicans and guaranteeing that the footage of his appearance would become the video clip that the news media played over and over.

    no love lost on either side it seems

    Parent
    Thanks for the link (none / 0) (#142)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 07:33:30 AM EST
    but the passages you quote seem to be telling 1/2 a story, and the article you linked to, one the one hand, seems to support the growing swell of groupthink that Weiner is not worthy of loyalty and support, and on the other, compliments his very quick grasp of the issues, etc.  He and Kristin Gillibrand recently co-sponsored legislation I think on Social Security; so he is not a total loner; she also voted against the "Deal" and is super-smart (IMO).  

    THe only thing I conclude is that Weiner is a complex fella, perhaps scrappy -- kinda NY -- but he is one of the few truly liberal voices left in Congress.  

    Parent

    I don't think this is a foregone conclusion (none / 0) (#110)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 07:58:21 PM EST
    especially in NY.  Yes, Weiner should face consequences, but they are more appropriately personal, IMO.  And, yes, it was dumb of him to do this, but remember WJC -- still a highly talented public servant we need in times like these.

    Parent
    true nuff (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 10:55:33 PM EST
    on a slightly different note, there are many kinds of betrayal

    today at The Daily Beast we have "Anthony Weiner's Ex: He Lied to Me"

    some relevant background:

    I briefly dated Anthony almost a decade ago . . . . The relationship didn't last, but we stayed friends. . . . He was a strong support when my father died suddenly from a heart attack seven years ago. When a relationship I had been hopeful about ended in 2006, he cleared his calendar to spend a Saturday with me . . . when my husband's parents were recently trapped in Egypt during the revolution, he helped to connect me to his wife, Huma, an aide to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, to facilitate their getting out.

    & then, long story short, her good friend asked her to defend him on TV, which she did, but without knowing he was lying to her, which prompted her "tell all"-cum-speculation fest at The Daily Beast ending more or less like this:

    Despite my disappointment in his behavior and my concerns about his capacity to be in a leadership position, my heart still aches for him and his family. We are all flawed human beings, and this is not about meting out judgment.

    oh really?

    he was a mensch to you, lady

    too bad he made you look foolish on the teebee, but maybe you could for just one moment forget about your career and STFU in view of your friend's true acts of friendship for you - unless your own "narcissism" is blinding you

    Parent

    She told this story (none / 0) (#126)
    by lilburro on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 12:05:52 AM EST
    to Fox News as well.  I believe Powers' story for what it is, but I also think there is some political point scoring going on here.  

    In terms of the transcripts, I wouldn't draw a conclusion unless I had read them all.  And I don't know if we are owed that.
     

    Parent

    It's situations like this (none / 0) (#136)
    by Amiss on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 02:35:35 AM EST
    that make me wish we were more European. They dont give a crap about a pol's sex life, its "what will you do for me and our country You serve us well and we will ignore what should be your private life."

    Parent
    I would assume (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 06:16:00 AM EST
    (but not sure) Saul is speaking of the pain and humiliation his wife is enduring at the moment, and then perhaps adding in the stress of facing parenthood with a betraying sleazebag of a husband?

    I know that if I found out my partner was sending crotch shots to young women online, I'd probably be be out the door. But they are recently married and now expecting a child, so she must be going through some seriously painful ruminating right now...

    It's not mutually exclusive to think that private lives are private, but to also feel empathy for what the families of these jerks are going through...

    Parent

    Weiner's wife is evidently (none / 0) (#143)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 07:37:11 AM EST
    strongly encouraging him not to resign, according to today's NY Times.  Are we supposed to tell her what to feel, especially when we in all probability have yet to know the whole story?  

    Parent
    I do not believe that I told her how to feel. (none / 0) (#145)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 09:07:22 AM EST
    I expressed empathy for what I imagine is a very painful situation for her. It's not hard to gamble on the idea that this would be painful for a spouse. But thanks.

    Parent
    understood (none / 0) (#149)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 10:14:48 AM EST


    Parent
    It's not the public's business!!! (none / 0) (#153)
    by observed on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 01:43:10 PM EST
    How hard is this to understand???

    Parent
    Well, you're entitled to that opinion. (1.00 / 0) (#154)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 02:32:44 PM EST
    Apparently, others feel that they have the right to have opinions about others' behaviors.

    Parent
    Apparently your reading skills are poor, and (2.00 / 1) (#155)
    by observed on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 02:42:41 PM EST
    to boot, you are displaying obnoxious puritan tendencies yourself. I said it's not the public's business, which really is indisputable---it's between himself and his wife. Of course you may have an opinion.

    Parent
    Oooh, you got me! (none / 0) (#156)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 02:51:43 PM EST
    I'm obnoxious, and a puritan -- PURITAN PURITAN, I hate sex, lol. AND I have poor reading skills to boot. And by the way, EVERYONE'S A PURITAN!

    Lordy....

    Parent

    You are rapidly becoming the (none / 0) (#158)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 09:38:36 PM EST
    punch line to a very bad joke...

    Unless I missed the memo, I don't believe anyone put you in charge of deciding what constitutes "the public's business," or what is "indisputable."

    The moment Weiner decided to have sexually loaded exchanges with women he couldn't even be sure were who they represented themselves to be, he lost the right to control the consequences or how people would react.  His stupid mistake put this in the public's face, so he - and you - are going to have to deal with that.

    But how gracious of you to allow anyone else to have an opinion...


    Parent

    I read this in (none / 0) (#33)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:22:19 PM EST
    Salon about why it matters. Still not convinced. He acted like an immature idiot. Whether his wife was 'looking at sonograms and having morning sickness' or just doing her normal life activities, his behavior was juvenile at best, harassing at worst.

    Parent
    Yuck, that article made me want to (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by observed on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:27:46 PM EST
    take a bath---and not because of Wiener.
    Tawdry sensationalism at its worst.

    Parent
    yes, but (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:28:25 PM EST
    yes

    Whether his wife was 'looking at sonograms and having morning sickness' or just doing her normal life activities,

    his wife & her pregnancy & their marriage are none of my business

    but

    his behavior was juvenile at best, harassing at worst

    there is at least some evidence for harassment & that is not a minor failing in a politician

    apart from the fact that he belongs to the party that likes to see itself as the last great hope of women

    Parent

    If I hear credibly that the worst of the (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:41:28 PM EST
    harassment stories are true, I may change my opinion about him resigning. I really have not been following it much beyond this blog.

    In general I tend to want to let the next election cycle handle these guys if there is no criminal activity.

    Parent

    Question... (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:44:58 PM EST
    does anyone consider one unsolicited pic harassment?  Or must one persist beyond one pic and/or sexually suggestive flirt to approach harassment status?

    Is it harassment if sent accidentally, like a keypunch error in someone's email address, and the sender apologizes?

    Is saying "Hi, you're beautiful, can I buy you breakfast?" harassment?  


    Parent

    love ya dog (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:52:16 PM EST
    i'm sure you're a lovely man & that the Special Lady is truly very lucky

    i love your free spirit & your way with words

    but i just have to throw up my hands on this one & say (the phrase gained major currency in the fall of 1991) "you just don't get it"

    i'll leave it to others, if they so choose, to do the edumacatin' here

    peace

    Parent

    Fair enough... (none / 0) (#52)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:58:20 PM EST
    certainly no shortage of things I don't get...Planet Earth, for starters:)

    Parent
    I had (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:37:07 PM EST
    an episode with someone in our apartment building (when Mr.Z and I were first married) who kept shoving pornographic pictures (ripped from magazines, and I don't mean Playboy) under my door.  It happened whenever I was home alone, so we conjectured that it must have been the guy downstairs (who could tell by footsteps who was home) or the guy next door or one of the two room-mates across the hall (who could all peek at our comings and goings).  It seriously freaked me out to the extent that I would leave the shotgun, loaded, in the hallway by the door whenever the hubby wasn't home.  Eventually, I wound up going to my husband's workplace every day after my work, and waiting for him to finish so that I was never home by myself.  Neither the police nor the landlord could do anything about it.  We wound up moving.  Now, obviously this was different than the Weiner tweets, since it had to have been someone in the building.  But then, Twitter didn't exist then.  As I said, I was totally freaked out and felt, yes, violated.

    Parent
    That is terrible, Zorba (none / 0) (#75)
    by lilburro on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:50:02 PM EST
    but...which of the reported conversations Weiner engaged in reflects that?  Flirting online often involves pictures.

    Parent
    There's flirting (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 05:31:30 PM EST
    and then there's flirting.  I haven't seen yet what the young women's exchanges were with Weiner.  A little banter, even sexually-tinged, in Twitter, however, does not mean they want a picture of his junk.  Unless they requested it.

    Parent
    There are some snippets (none / 0) (#90)
    by lilburro on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 05:41:39 PM EST
    of conversation out there, one woman sent "sexy pics" in return, etc.  ABC News has an interview with one woman.  She made over $10,000 from ABC for the materials she provided.  Gawker has some of the pics she sent.

    I don't really know what to say other than that Weiner's an idiot and possibly a creep.  It's unlikely we'll ever get to see all the conversations and pictures sent between parties, and it's probably unnecessary.  If no-one is willing to press charges there's not much more I can say.  Maybe the House Ethics Committee will reveal him to be a lot creepier and more predatory than I think he is now.  

    Parent

    From the viewpoint of an old crone-- (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by the capstan on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 06:22:05 PM EST
    my first reaction was "Who wants a nude picture of Weiner, who is no prize in the looks department?"  In the bad, old days, he'd have qualified as a geek (which had nothing to do with computers or brains).  What I really want to know is why some guys (internet flashers?) think their physical equipment is so impressive that everyone wants to get a look.  I think I have gotten old and jaded.

    Parent
    Damn.... (none / 0) (#94)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 06:07:09 PM EST
    that is stalking...how awful, what a sc*mbag.

    I would have acquitted you or Mr. Z for taking aggressive counter-measures, fwiw.

    Parent

    What prompted me (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 06:18:32 PM EST
    to finally call the police was when he wrote on one of the pictures, on the man, the word "me" and on the woman, the word "you."  Yes, it was stalking.  And had he tried to break into the apartment, we would indeed have taken "aggressive counter-measures."  I'm almost glad, in retrospect, that we never found out who it actually was, because I'm pretty sure that Mr. Z would have wound up beating the bejesus out of him, and then he would have ended up in jail, not the perpetrator.  

    Parent
    I would expect nothing less... (none / 0) (#102)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 06:29:44 PM EST
    from Mr. Z, you are better off.  A guy like that runs into the wrong guy/gal inevitably.  Karma kid, gotta believe:)

    Parent
    Score for Mr. Zorba ... (none / 0) (#144)
    by Nemi on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 07:43:25 AM EST
    ... again! ;)

    Parent
    I think your first question is good (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:17:52 PM EST
    and I'm thinking about it. I don't think I would consider it harassment if it was only once, I said 'hey, stop it!, and it stopped.

    Accident, or 'hey beautiful...', no, of course not. To me, anyway.

    Parent

    Thanks ruff... (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 06:04:01 PM EST
    I've seen many guys who are too overbearing and aggressive coming on to somebody out and about...I get it, some guys are real creeps who need to be slapped.  And if they persist after "no, leave me alone", they are stalkers, and that is a crime. But creepy dudes have to meet creepy ladies too.  There is a line and I don't think Weiner crossed it.  And if all the various types of creeps and liars have to leave the House, there will never be a quorum.

    Sexual predators is a whole 'nother ballgame.  If DSK done what he is accused of, thats a sexual predator rapist right there.

       

    Parent

    Given Rep. Weiner seems to be a (none / 0) (#103)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 06:32:09 PM EST
    virtual flasher, I wonder how he got that idea.  

    Parent
    No one (none / 0) (#69)
    by lilburro on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:32:33 PM EST
    has stepped up to claim harassment (as andgarden has pointed out) and the one seemingly truly unsolicited picture was a joke.  Apparently.

    It seems all the pics were sent in the context of already flirtatious conversations, so that's not terrible to me.  It's online, you can shut down the conversation if you want to.  As a lesbian I have a different perspective though, M/F dynamics are different than F/F.  And obviously I would not enjoy receiving a c*ck shot from someone.  All that aside what Weiner did seems relatively harmless to me.  If someone contacted him to say "hey, I loved your appearance on MSNBC" and he responded, "hey, check out my c*ck!" and sent a pic, I think that would be a problem.  But it doesn't seem to have happened that way.

    This reminds me of that Seinfeld episode in which Elaine is dating the "whip it out" guy.  That, btw, seems way way creepier to me.  I can almost imagine the Seinfeld episode based on this incident.

    Parent

    maybe like andgarden (none / 0) (#78)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 05:00:42 PM EST
    you are not following the news:

    the one seemingly truly unsolicited picture was a joke . . .

    that's according to Rep. Weiner, who as we now know lied aboout this for days

    The Seattle woman who was sent a lewd photo from Rep. Anthony Weiner tells The New York Times she didn't even get the joke.

    "I still didn't get the joke part of it," Western Washington University student Gennette Cordova told The NYT.

    [ . . . ]

    Cordova told The NYT she hadn't sent Weiner any suggestive messages, and the photo was out of context with their previous correspondence.

    as for this:

    If someone contacted him to say "hey, I loved your appearance on MSNBC" and he responded, "hey, check out my c*ck!" and sent a pic, I think that would be a problem.  But it doesn't seem to have happened that way.

    in some cases, it appears to have happened more or less the way you describe here, with women recipients at best "startled" by the unsolicited pictures

    Parent

    Fair enough (none / 0) (#88)
    by lilburro on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 05:31:49 PM EST
    I was basing my assessment of the Cordova situation over remarks she had said here and the fact that it made so little sense to her.  What Weiner was actually doing by sending her a picture is still unclear to me, in part because I think he is still intentionally obscuring aspects of this whole thing.  If he intended to send her an unsolicited c*ck shot I think he was definitely over the line.  (And if that was what he was doing, WTF is wrong with him?)

    Parent
    question..... (none / 0) (#152)
    by ZtoA on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 11:43:14 AM EST
    re Kdog's question at #47

    What does a political leader expect people to do who receive genital pics? CAN someone have ANY expectations? Maybe the recipient is expected to giggle, blush, and file the photo away in a secret protected file to take it out from time to time for a little stimulation. Maybe the recipient can sell the photo for as much money as possible. Maybe sell it to the sender's political enemies. Maybe they could publish it to the sender's families' websites. Seems to me the sender does not have much control over what happens to the image and how it will be used. (remember this sender had never even met these internet people)

    I suppose some of this comes into the area of copyright law. Who owns an image of their genitals? And what can be done with the images? Does one give up any rights to an image of their body if one releases it to internet acquaintances?

    Parent

    They lost any cred to that (3.00 / 2) (#139)
    by Amiss on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 02:45:07 AM EST
    when they pulled every shenanigan in the book to remove Hillary from the Presidential race so they could get "the chosen one elected. We all know how that turned out, too, dont we?

    "apart from the fact that he belongs to the party that likes to see itself as the last great hope of women"


    Parent

    absolutely NONE of my business (none / 0) (#137)
    by Amiss on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 02:37:48 AM EST
     "his wife & her pregnancy & their marriage are none of my business"

    Parent
    I'm just wondering if it would have been (none / 0) (#2)
    by observed on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:22:00 PM EST
    equally scandalous if Wiener's wife weren't pregnant. Probably.

    Political sex scandals (none / 0) (#3)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:26:13 PM EST
    of late have gotten more tawdry.  Like they are trying to be sleazier than the last guy.

    Parent
    Yes, but this one is NOT (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by observed on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:27:54 PM EST
    sleazy. It's the most softcore scandal imaginable.

    Parent
    Exactly... (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:48:31 PM EST
    it is a sexless sex scandal.

    Parent
    it is not free of sexual (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:09:33 PM EST
    harassment and/or virtual sexual assault if you are one of the women (or perhaps even underage girls, because the Internets don't know how old you really are) who received an unsolicited crotch/d*ck shot from Rep. Weiner

    Parent
    Is there any evidence... (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:26:27 PM EST
    any of these pice were unwanted or unwelcome?  I haven't heard.

    The blackjack dealer is spilling the most beans...she seemed to enjoy the show.

    I don't know what a virtual sexual assault even is...what kinda new age fantasy non-crime is that?  Computers have an off button, social network sites a logout button, email gives you the option to delete without reading.  Maybe if someone makes clear they ain't down to fool around and the other party persists you could call it stalking...but not an assault...thats crazy imo.
     

    Parent

    trouble is (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:33:04 PM EST
    you can't hit the OFF button till after your eyes have taken in the unwelcome visual

    the student in WA state has professed being less than thrilled about being the surprise recipient of Rep. Weiner's clothed crotch shot

    we'll see if there's more to come about what Rep. Weiner's handlers have called the "explicit" shots

    Parent

    I see sh*t on the street... (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:46:54 PM EST
    all the time that ain't easy on the eyes...isn't that life?  Seeing, smelling, hearing, feeling thuings that ya don't like on occassion?

    Parent
    just so, kdog (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by sj on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:01:06 PM EST
    Frankly I'm more offended when I walk into a deli and see Fox "news" on the tv.  I don't know that I'll never go there again until I've been "assaulted" by nonsense the first time.  

    It's just part of life.  

    Parent

    Seems to me that if you can handle Facebook, (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:03:32 PM EST
    you can handle R rated experiences. And that's basically all this is.

    If any of these women genuinely felt harassed, they have grounds for complaint. But I haven't seen anything like that.

    I don't understand why people expect the politicians to live in a PG-13 sex world. Nobody else does.

    Parent

    you said yourself (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:19:06 PM EST
    that you have not been following the coverage

    so maybe you don't know that l'affaire Weiner is not entirely an R-rated production

    but let me simplify by invoking Sigmund Freud's famously baffled question:

    What does a woman want?

    & let me answer:

    a woman wants to have grown up as a girl in the safety of a loving family & to go to school & to apply for jobs & to ride the subway or walk to work & to do her job & maybe on her lunch hour to discuss politics online with a congressman - a woman wants to be able to do all these things and more - without the threat or the reality of everywhere & forever having some guy's d!ck literally or metaphorically or virtually shoved in her face

    & now i will busy myself tidying up this little comment of mine & submitting it to NPR's "This I Believe"

    Parent

    "these women"? (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by ZtoA on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:59:06 PM EST
    The question is not so much if the recipients were offended but the sender opens himself up to serious attack. He did not know who he was sending photos of his erect genitals to. Could have been Breitbart himself. Weiner just did not know. And as a very powerful public person it was like waving a red flag - look at me! Is he TRYING to be attacked by the likes of Breitbart? He has to know the internet is used as a political weapon. These people may or may not be who they say they are, they may not really be "fans" of his or allies, they may want to disgrace him. They might want to pass the images along to as many others as possible - who knows? He didn't have any idea. He exposed himself to attack and to an extent he seems to have invited it. Then he let friends come to his defense while lying and then he exposed them as fools and exposed his own lying.  

    Parent
    That's the part that gets me (5.00 / 4) (#91)
    by sj on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 05:43:40 PM EST
    He has to know the internet is used as a political weapon.

    He's part of the body that has pretty much eliminated personal privacy.  How could he not see this coming.

    As for the calls for his resignation, I find myself wondering if those calls would be quite as loud were he a blue dog.  He handed his liberal self over on a silver platter -- "one gadfly neutralized:  check!"

    And we had so few voices as it was.  That part makes me so mad I could spit.

    Parent

    Uh-oh (4.00 / 3) (#82)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 05:11:30 PM EST
    is this a confession you're making?  So you send unsolicited sex photos to strangers on the internet?  Cuz, from what you say it happens all the time in your world.

    It has never happened in mine.

    And if it had, and it was Weiner, I'd have been afraid to report him....he's in a position of authority, after all...at least for a few more days.

    Parent

    completely uncalled for (none / 0) (#83)
    by CST on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 05:24:41 PM EST
    and frankly, none of your business either way.

    He's a congressperson, not a dictator - what would you possibly be afraid of?  And it's the INTERNET - home to all sorts of weird $hit - which I think was the point andgarden was making - not your "confession" of any kind.  But it's not a place where anyone has any kind of actual power over someone.

    Parent

    My understanding (none / 0) (#76)
    by lilburro on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:55:06 PM EST
    is that the student in WA did not actually think the pictures were intended for her and were instead intended for someone else on his Twitter list.

    The blackjack dealer makes him sound the creepiest, but it doesn't seem clear to me that he harassed her.

    Parent

    blackjack dealer (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 05:05:35 PM EST
    if she consented, then i agree - no harassment

    but that still does not change the truth of Zorba's very astute comment at #77, which gets to the other part of the heart of the matter

    Parent

    Yes.... (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 06:27:02 PM EST
    what Zorba was enduring is definitely over the line, a crime.  Weiner I don't think so.

    If ya can stand wallowing in the muck for a few minutes, peep some of the Facebook transcripts.  I don't think this is the internet version of the guy who used to hang out in his car outside my high-school doing inappropriate things.  I think this is how people who like to internet freak meet imo.

    But what do I know, I'm with The Dude...

    Jackie Treehorn: Interactive erotic software. The wave of the future, Dude. One hundred percent electronic!
    The Dude: Yeah well, I still j*rk-0ff manually.


    Parent
    Unless you're referring to Breitbart, who (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by observed on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:34:43 PM EST
    certainly seems to be much sleazier than Drudge.

    Parent
    Clarence Thomas was sleazy. (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by observed on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:47:40 PM EST
    Weiner has acted like a junior high school boy.

    Parent
    except (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:13:18 PM EST
    Weiner is a 46-year-old adult male, not a junior high school boy

    Weiner has acted like a flasher

    Parent

    Seems to me (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:28:21 PM EST
    if every flasher sticks to Facebook, and stays off the subway in a raincaot, society is ahead in the game.

    Not that I think Weiner is a flasher or anything.

    Parent

    that would be an improvement (none / 0) (#38)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:29:32 PM EST
    hell on a segment of the raincoat industry though

    Parent
    Yep -- as I said the other day, (none / 0) (#55)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:03:47 PM EST
    it's not so much the lying on this story -- how many people are shocked that a pol would lie about his sex life or anything else? -- as the weinerosity, the weirdness and creepiness of this story.

    And I have to be consistent in denouncing those fairly rare genitals-obsessed-exhibitionist pols who come along every once in a while.  If I found something strange and crude and kinda sicko about LBJ and his tendency to unzip and show his privates to people (including one foreign pressman who'd merely asked him why the US was in VN?) and who insisted they watch him attend to his bodily functions, particularly a mixed-gender press corps in the WH, then I have to come down on Rep Weiner as well.  

    At least Lyndon had the smarts not to make Polaroids of his "private ventures" and pass them out to people he didn't know.  Closest he got to doing that -- iirc -- was on that presser walk on the WH grounds when he lifted up his shirt to show them the surgical scar from his recent medical procedure.  Rather unpresidential behavior, but nothing much beyond that.  The other stuff though, as with Weiner -- that's outside the bounds of normal behavior.  

    Those two LBJ top aides who quietly sought outside psychological advice about their boss -- they reacted appropriately, though ultimately they could do nothing about a boss gone mad.  Weiner may not be quite in LBJ's league in the borderline mental case category, but he's roughly in the same ballpark and probably on the same team.

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    I don't see what (none / 0) (#56)
    by sj on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:10:26 PM EST
    he has to do with Rep. Weiner who was only 8 years old when Johson died.  But I don't think there really needs to be connection for you to bring him up.  You have a serious wild hair about Johnson and how he isn't castigated enough by history.

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    AFAIC, (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:25:14 PM EST
    I think that Reagan is the one who should be more castigated by history.  Heck, even (nominal) Democrat Obama admires Reagan, and Obama should know better.  (Although it does say volumes about his economic policies, which we should have been alerted to at the time Obama said it.)   ;-)

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    PS (none / 0) (#66)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:26:48 PM EST
    I'm not trying to imply that Reagan (or Obama) had/has any exhibitionist qualities.

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    I don't disagree -- both (none / 0) (#68)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:32:31 PM EST
    presidencies (reagan and the guy I mentioned) greatly impacted our country in negative ways, imo, and yet both have somehow met with revisionist favor in recent polls of historians.

    But I meant only to draw only a very strict, narrow historical parallel  as to overt bizarre behavior and the possibility that both were actually showing signs of having serious mental issues.

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    Listen, you don't have to explain to me (none / 0) (#85)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 05:27:56 PM EST
    about LBJ.  I really don't give a flying rat's @ss about his crude behavior, and I do appreciate all he did for civil rights, voting rights, and medicare/medicaid.  But I will never, ever forgive him for escalating the Vietnam War and for the lies about the Gulf of Tonkin that gave Congress the excuse to vote to allow him to escalate.  I know guys who were killed and also mentally and/or physically ruined by that war.  And, yes, I was one of those kids out there marching and shouting "Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?"  People are complicated- the good and the evil.  I just wish he had not listened to the evil.  It would have saved a lot of lives- American and Vietnamese.

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    Oh yeah (none / 0) (#89)
    by sj on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 05:35:12 PM EST
    In my little rant I failed to mention that actual harm -- especially harmful public policy -- is a absolutely fair game.  

    Private behavior is another matter to me entirely.  

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    I agree, sj (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 06:09:06 PM EST
    The main thought I had about the Weiner-wiener kerfuffle is that he was so incredibly stupid to think that his tweets would never become public.  Stupid, and incredibly filled with hubris.  I feel sorry for his wife, Huma, but that's between them.  (Personally, if my husband ever did anything like this, which I seriously doubt he ever would, he would rue the day I found out.)  And I feel sorry for any of the recipients who received unwanted pictures (for reasons I wrote about on a previous comment), if they were, indeed, unwanted.  The other thing I worry about is what this says about his judgment, and his ego.  Having said that, I recognize that this does not necessarily have any bearing on his abilities to fulfill his duties as a congressman.  If every elected official who ever did something stupid, sexually inappropriate, had an affair, etc, etc, were to resign, we would have very few elected officials.  (Although, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing........)  

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    Again, Z, we disagree -- (none / 0) (#109)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 07:52:41 PM EST
    LBJ was far far more than merely the rather normal-sounding portrait of the usual mix of human good-evil who just happened to "listen" to his bad side at one point.  My point there was to note the distinction between normal imperfect people and those who appear to others, objectively, as over the line consistently in their behavior in private.  In that case, we had two very highly placed aides who both independently thought it was getting so bad, that they both sought outside psychological expertise.  

    One, the speechwriter Richard Goodwin, later asked in print whether he shouldn't have done more with what he knew, and somehow gone to others to build up some further support or gone public -- what horrors Johnson was cooking up in 1965, like the VN War, might have been averted?  In the end though, he rightly concluded that it wouldn't have worked, that it would have been his word against that of the prez -- and LBJ with all his power and well-known propensity to seek revenge would have gone after him such that Goodwin himself would have ended up in a straightjacket, not Lyndon.

    So, I do care about his crude behavior and the type of people who would act like that who manage to get great power in our country.  Funny how these borderline types often will act out in bizarre ways with the public policy if they're given the opportunity.

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    Harold D. Lasswell (none / 0) (#120)
    by christinep on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 09:21:24 PM EST
    You might be interested in reading "The Psychopathology of Politics" (Lasswell.) Many years ago, via my husband's political science PhD program, I read Lasswell's early thesis...and,laughed (at early 20-something, I thought that it was surely overstated.)

    Mr. Lasswell is oft referred to as the "father" of modern political science. Watching the passing scene over the years, I find his work quite prescient now.

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    I miss the good ole days (none / 0) (#133)
    by Amiss on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 02:13:52 AM EST
    when wars were actually televised and we could see for ourselves what the hell our troops were going through on the nightly news.

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    Couldn't resist -- plus it's the only (none / 0) (#57)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 04:16:52 PM EST
    other case of a major American pol I could think of in the genitals-exhibitionist category.  

    Perhaps you could enlighten me about some others I'm not familiar with or have forgotten about -- not just back-bencher ex US congressmen for a day types, but major-impact pols who had peculiar private inclinations along the lines of a Rep Weiner -- so I can avoid bringing up Lyndon a little less often.

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    Why bring up anyone else at all? (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by sj on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 05:27:00 PM EST
    That's my real question.  That's no different than catching a colleague in a pecadillo and then listing off all the other colleagues you've known that have had indiscretions.  It's pure gossip and an invasion of privacy.  Even for public figures.  

    There's nothing to be learned there.  Human nature --virtuous or base -- isn't going to be changed by what someone else did.  Today's circumstances aren't going to affected by what went on in the past.  

    Life goes on.  How would you like to have people remember you based on the ugly things you've done?  All of us have skeletons.  Some bigger and uglier than others.  But none of us are defined by our skeletons and (assuming that the behavior is not currently ongoing, or pose a danger to someone else) the past should be allowed to be the past.  And I'm pretty sure Johnson's behavior hasn't continued to the present.

    It's like saying, "that brodie, man, he just couldn't stop talking about people's sex life" when Breitbart is acting all sanctimonious and malicious.  That doesn't describe the multi-dimensional person that comes through on the rest of your comments.  Moreover, it would have nothing to do with what Breitbart (for example) is doing.

    Just sayin'.

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    Human nature perhaps can't (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 07:22:59 PM EST
    be changed, but perhaps we as citizens can become a little more sophisticated and careful -- within reason -- about the type of people we elevate to high office.  Granted, Rep Weiner was just a congressman, but he was a rising star in the party, and often was sent out to speak boldly on an important issue before that body.  Fortunately -- a silver lining to this story -- he was "found out" before he could rise higher and do even more damage to himself, his family, and his party.

    As with, say the Edwards situation.

    No one here is trying to say we can only have saints running for public office.  As a huge JFK fan, as well as a fierce defender of Bill Clinton during the MonicaMadness, it would be hypocritical of me to suggest we can only have purer than the driven snow types running for office.

    But in the case of some pols, there were what I would call "tells" there for anyone to see, early on -- that's just on the gross and disgusting stuff I noted above -- which a reasonable person might have interpreted as someone showing signs of ongoing mental disorder whom we might normally consider maybe shouldn't have so much power.  When it's the president of the US we're talking about, obviously we've got a problem with someone who's possibly off his rocker, and so imo it's proper to be interested in some of these private conduct areas should they come to our attention.

    Just as I'd want to know whether a pol seeking high position is also highly abusive, in private, with his staff, or tends to think things like paying $2k in parking tickets isn't important unless he's caught (Weiner on both counts).  Is that too mere irrelevant gossip?  Or should some of these matters, in the aggregate, be a relevant matter for voters to consider if they should become aware of it because it tends to suggest the pol has some issues with abuse of power and of people?

    With some people who go into politics, it's more than a benign simple matter of being "complex individuals" with some "skeletons" and "pecadillos".  Their consistent, peculiar and perhaps abusive conduct takes them out of that garden variety large category we would call "normal" and into a different realm I would call at least borderline behavior and personality.

    I suggest we need to pay more careful attention to the non-benign "tells", the curious repeated instances of behavior in some people who make it to public office, the ones their friends and close associates later describe as "apparent/obvious issues".  LBJ, Edwards (to a slight extent), and Weiner all had them prior to each doing something truly stupid.  I do not want these people making their way up the chain of power to where they could do real damage to everyone some day, although, admittedly, spotting them early on and keeping them away from power is easier said than done.

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    Anyone who seeks public office... (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 07:41:46 PM EST
    has a mental disorder, Vonnegut called it the fundamental flaw of our republic.

    Whaddya gonna do brodie, ya know?  Your well-reasoned comment begs the question...if we will demand resignation over such things of little to no consequence, unrelated to the work of a legislator, why would we elect such an individual in the first place?  

    For the good of the party?  What party?  I don't see no party I wanna party with.

    If it is the degree of the mental defect, I think there is a line ahead of Weiner for submitting resignations.

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    Yeah, I always thought Vonnegut (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 07:59:24 PM EST
    could be a little silly with some of his hyperbole.

    Plenty of liars and crooks and even crazies tend to be attracted to public office, for sure.  But that doesn't mean they all are.  It's just too laughably cynical.

    As for AW, actually I haven't decided whether he should resign, though I might lean in that direction today.  Let's see what happens, what other shoes might drop.

    But knowing what I know today about this guy's character and proclivities, if I lived in his district I'd be actively seeking a good replacement.  New York usually doesn't lack for qualified and dynamic up-and-coming pols.  And they all aren't mentally disturbed, sorry Kurt ...

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    Wouldn't be so quick to dismiss... (none / 0) (#113)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 08:07:07 PM EST
    is there not something inherently off with wanting to be in a position of authority over others?  Or am I crazy?

    I once had to conduct interviews to fill a receptionist position for an old gig...I almost puked from the anxiety.  Pols sign papers that put chains on people, send people to die...I'd have heart failure.

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    If that's the only way you look (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 08:17:31 PM EST
    at public office -- as "authority" over others and related -- then, well let's say that's a seriously distorted and narrow view of what they do.

    Of course me, I came along as just a small yet aware youngster about the time when the top office holder in the land was inspiring people all over the country to go into public service for all the good they could do for others, rather than to exert authority over them or to enrich themselves, etc.  I never detected much mentally awry with JFK -- to the contrary in fact.  

    His successor and his successor -- two in a row whack jobs both of them.  Both belonged either in a full-scale mental treatment center or in prison.  I think prison for Nixon, actually.

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    Criminalization... (none / 0) (#118)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 08:46:15 PM EST
    will do that I guess:)

    When I was born all those cats I read about in history books were long since murdered.  Prison Nation was born.

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    Human nature surely will not change (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by christinep on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 09:34:29 PM EST
    ...but, sj, people can & do learn from the consequences of behavior. If that is so, then comparisons (depending upon how they are used) can be instructive to an individual or to the society involved. How the behavior of public officials affect society, while definitely complicated, is useful from a number of perspectives.

    Clarification: While I consider part of the implicit bargain in our society to be that public lives are open books, the situation involving Wiener has so many aspects that a chapter could be written on each. IMO, one of the more significant is the role of the media in pouring gasoline on this fire. For example, the story by AP today on the supposedly difficult dilemma faced by Democratic women in office demonstrates the attempt to feed-the-flames...wherein, even tho the women interviewed declined any quotable comments, AP crafted something to pass for a news report. The interaction of so many interests inherent in these types of stories is not very far from the surface.

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    Not a pol... (none / 0) (#111)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 07:58:27 PM EST
    but an appointed power...J. Edgar Hoover.

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    I guess you're just playing the (none / 0) (#7)
    by observed on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:33:13 PM EST
    apparatchik

    Mitt Romney (none / 0) (#9)
    by CST on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:39:36 PM EST
    faced with protesters in Michigan due to his opposition of the auto bailout.

    "Romney - whose father, George, ran American Motors before serving as the state's governor - outlined his position a New York Times opinion column in November 2008 with the headline, "Let Detroit go Bankrupt." "

    Air Strikes (none / 0) (#15)
    by republicratitarian on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:49:49 PM EST
    Yemen?(who knew?), Pakistan, Libya.

    How many countries are we dropping bombs on that we aren't at war with?

    Just seems to be a lot of that in the news lately.

    I'd say that deserves a Nobel (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by observed on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:51:41 PM EST
    prize, for best peacetime use of explosives.

    Parent
    He can put that one on one end (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 08:38:30 PM EST
    of the mantel-with his Peace Prize in the middle and the trophy for most deaths attributable to a Peace Prize winner on the other end.

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    Times like this... (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 02:59:09 PM EST
    I wish Brand R was in charge...at least our warlike nature would get more press and more scorn, even if the end result is the same...perpetual war.

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    We (none / 0) (#22)
    by lentinel on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:08:08 PM EST
    might have had a better chance with McCain.

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    UN forces (none / 0) (#138)
    by Amiss on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 02:39:45 AM EST
    are out to eliminate Khadafi finally. According to the teevee at least.

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    The Radley Balko article linked to above is (none / 0) (#26)
    by republicratitarian on Thu Jun 09, 2011 at 03:10:43 PM EST
    excellent. His website theagitator.com is worth checking out also.

    Structural factors driving high unemployment (none / 0) (#147)
    by Politalkix on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 09:31:54 AM EST
    link

    During this economic recovery, automation is replacing human capital. Demand for goods and services have reached pre-recession levels. The supply is being met with fewer workers and more machines. Unemployed real estate and home construction workers may be equivalents of unemployed farmers from an earlier era during which the United States transitioned from an agrarian to an industrial and manufacturing economy. It is ridiculuous to argue as some do that only demand and not structural factors in unemployment are playing a big role in the unemployment crisis that we are facing.
    Focussing on real estate to lead us to economic growth as some would like to do would be a folly, IMO. We got burnt by putting all our eggs in the same home sales basket for decades; we should now focus on distributing eggs in various baskets.    

    Distribute eggs (none / 0) (#150)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 10:31:23 AM EST
    You know how you do this? You create demand and create the jobs that it requires.

    And we're back to demand...for jobs, so that ultimately eggs can be had.

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    Distribute the eggs (none / 0) (#151)
    by Politalkix on Fri Jun 10, 2011 at 10:48:33 AM EST
    From the article:
    "The economy is producing as much as it was before the downturn, but with seven million fewer jobs. Since the recovery began, businesses' spending on employees has grown 2 percent as equipment and software spending has swelled 26 percent, according to the Commerce Department. A capital rebound that sharp and a labor rebound that slow have been recorded only once before -- after the 1982 recession."

    If the economy is producing as much as it was before the downturn, it means that the demand has mostly returned because the goods and services produced are getting consumed.
    The problem is that it requires fewer workers (because of automation) to supply the same demand.

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