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The Moment: With Video Annotation

Jed Lewison does a great job of laying it out:

Romney demonstrated that he is a puppet of the extreme Fauxlsification of reality that the Extreme Right wing of the GOP demands.

It lead him to a monumental blunder. Like W and Iraq.

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    From Tim Dickinson's (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by KeysDan on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 12:01:29 PM EST
    Five Nuttiest Comments by Romney, the tweet of the night (Mary Pols):  " I'm a single mother and I just can't stop my 8-year old from running around with his AK-47.  I really need a husband."

    And get that dinner on the table, woman! (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Angel on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 02:36:15 PM EST
    I Don't Know About... (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 12:06:13 PM EST
    ...all this:
    Romney demonstrated that he is a puppet of the extreme Fauxlsification of reality that the Extreme Right wing of the GOP demands.

    I would say just say another victim of Fox News, either by himself or his staff.

    Where's the wingers on this one, as mentioned weeks back, I went to the doctors twice, and both times, about 10 days apart, they were beating the same drum.  The President lied about Libya.

    And now that it has been exposed as a lie, you would think a winger or two would fess up to their information hot line being nothing more than GOP fantasy.  Nope, crickets.  And I am sure this will not make any highlight real over at Fox.

    ... the false meme that CNN has walked back Candy Crowley's live fact check, and that she has apologized for getting it wrong. Never happened.

    Parent
    Based on comments here (none / 0) (#9)
    by sj on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 02:37:48 PM EST
    My guess is that Fox is using the Big Lie strategy.

    Parent
    Meanwhile... (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 01:27:55 PM EST
    The NYTimes reports:

    WASHINGTON -- Income inequality has soared to the highest levels since the Great Depression, and the recession has done little to reverse the trend, with the top 1 percent of earners taking 93 percent of the income gains in the first full year of the recovery.

    What I regret most about this election is that Obama was not challenged by someone on the left.

    So we're stuck with being jubilant about Romney being revealed as a right-wing twit.

    Jill Stein is trying... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 01:49:37 PM EST
    trying so hard she crashed the debate, leading to her arrest.

    Parent
    "Like W and Iraq" (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by MKS on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:19:25 PM EST
    That is exactly right.
    W and Cheney were still spouting their WMD mantra in early 2003 in spite of at least two separate reports by Hans Blix that they could not find any WMD or even weapons programs in Iraq.  Blix also said that his inspections at that time were unfettered by the usual Saddam Hussein runaround.  Blix also said they could complete their inspection regimen within a few short months.

    No one in W's world listened.

    So, W did not wait for all the intel.

    And, now W's Neocon advisers and Romney are similarly not waiting for all the intel.  Going off half cocked.  Losing their heads....

    And, so how will Romney--advised by W's Neocons--duplicate W's Iraq blunder?  By bombing Iran.

    Such moderate language from the centrist (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by shoephone on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:07:09 PM EST
    The only people I've ever heard use the perjorative "moonbat" are right wing wackos. (Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter come to mind.) "Shrill moonbat" sorta takes the cake, for a so-called centrist.

    And Scott made a legitimate point with his comment.

    FYI.

    Oy, "moonbat" was in response to (none / 0) (#92)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:14:52 PM EST
    You're a winger, but in these times of wingnutz gone mad
    are you unable to read?

    We'll have to agree to disagree regarding whether Scott's point was legitimate.

    FYI.

    Parent

    We all got a little testy (none / 0) (#93)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:15:56 PM EST
    Let's call it a thread and all be nice to each other again.

    Parent
    I immed. thought of "Jesus Wants Me (none / 0) (#95)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:18:43 PM EST
    for a Sunbeam," but, it turns out, there are now alternative lyrics to the Sunday School song.  

    Then there's our Gov. Moonbeam.  

    Parent

    I'll have to look that one up, (none / 0) (#97)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:21:40 PM EST
    it makes me think of Archie Bunker. And makes me chuckle, too.

    Parent
    The Vaselines and, later, Nirvana. (none / 0) (#99)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:24:15 PM EST
    You referencing Nirvana makes me smile. (none / 0) (#100)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:29:55 PM EST
    me too (none / 0) (#101)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:33:24 PM EST
    If you plan to be a constant (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:38:09 PM EST
    contrarian, you may have to change your screen name!

    I'm not a contrarian. (none / 0) (#104)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 06:01:49 PM EST
    Well, not usually. (none / 0) (#106)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 06:10:57 PM EST
    I disagree. ;-) (none / 0) (#107)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 06:27:10 PM EST
    See you all tomorrow!

    Parent
    Never lose your sense of humor. (none / 0) (#108)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 06:28:07 PM EST
    Jed Lewison is a Daily Kos treasure... (none / 0) (#1)
    by magster on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 11:20:20 AM EST
    I love his posts, and apparently he's responsible for many of the graphics like this one.

    I was (none / 0) (#2)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 11:23:57 AM EST
    thinking the same thing> ROmeny sounded just like so many posters who repeat right wing talking points as they are some sort of absolute truth and have no IDEA that they are not based in reality in the least. I guess this is what happens when you what you ascribe to is no longer a political party but apocalyptic cult.

    And here on TL, we can relive the (none / 0) (#3)
    by observed on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 11:33:02 AM EST
    moment in live replay in the comments, over and over again, with a certain commenter. It's amazing! "Just look at the transcript, Jack!"

    here on TL, I think the claims of both sides are a little, er, muddy:

    President Obama claimed during last night's debate that he cried terrorism immediately after the Libya attack, but in doing so, he contradicted his own spokesman.

    Nine days after the assault, a reporter asked White House Press Secretary Jay Carney if they had called the Libya assault a terrorist attack.

    "I haven't," Carney replied on September 20th. And he was speaking for the White House, not just himself, as was made clear when he cautioned reporters against thinking it was significant that "we hadn't" called it a terrorist attack yet.

    Mitt Romney had a back-and-forth last night about whether Obama treated the assault on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya, as a terrorist attack or a spontaneous protest gone bad. Obama wriggled off the hook when CNN's Candy Crowley confirmed that Obama had used the words "act of terror" during his September 12 Rose Garden speech.

    Obama opened that Rose Garden speech by blaming the attack on an anti-Islam Youtube video, even though he referred generically to "acts of terror" towards the end of the speech after mentioning the September 11, 2001 attack on the World Trade Center.

    The president now claims that phrase referred to the September 11, 2012 attack as well, but it took another week for the U.S. government to refer specifically to the murder of four Americans as a terrorist attack.

    "I would say yes, they were killed in the course of a terrorist attack on our embassy," NCTC director Matt Olsen told Congress on September 19th.

    The next day, Carney confirmed to reporters that this was the first time they had called the attack "a terrorist attack."



    Does it occur to you (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Towanda on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:54:12 PM EST
    that within hours of the attack -- while the State Dept. was only beginning an investigation to determine not only its cause but also whether other Americans at other embassies or consulates or whoknowswhat were endangered -- was not the time for the President to do more than generalize, as revealing more of what was known or not known possibly could imperil others?  

    No?  Huh.  

    Maybe it's just me who is glad to see grown-ups in charge -- and to not see a headlong rush to judgment to appease the impatient press and public.  I suppose Obama could have turned it into a photo-op by posing with braggadaccio in a battle jacket and impetuously declaring untruths about our overseas missions?  

    Parent

    Please refer to (none / 0) (#37)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:06:28 PM EST
    Did. Nope, I stand by what I said (none / 0) (#98)
    by Towanda on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:23:04 PM EST
    and see the reply to you there.

    Parent
    Two things: (none / 0) (#11)
    by sj on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:30:26 PM EST
    1.  If you're a "centrist" then the right is even more radical that than I thought.

    2.  "... perhaps.  the only one here on TL".  

    ::stunned silence::  

    bwaaaa-haaa-haaa-haaa!

    Parent

    Ya, kind of an all in good fun jab at BTD (none / 0) (#14)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:36:33 PM EST
    who often claims to be centrist. Although, a few weeks ago when several "where you you stand politically" questionaires were posted here on TL, I got - by far - the most centrist results of anyone on TL who took them. Obviously, I don't take some random intertoob questionnaire seriously, hence the all in good fun-ness of the comment...

    Parent
    You are a RWer (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:45:49 PM EST
    I am a Centrist.

    KDog, Dadler, Lentinel, etc, are Leftists.

    Parent

    I'm a realist (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:57:25 PM EST
    With skin in the game, and it isnt that hard to get information on the Benghazi attack that walks everyone forward to more understanding.  The real problem at this point for some posters out there is that some people really don't want to know what happened and don't want to acknowledge that more information really does now exist out there for them to ingest.

    I am so sick of this crap, swear to Jesus and Buddha and Satan too.

    Parent

    kdog bills himself as libertarian. (none / 0) (#23)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:48:20 PM EST
    Quasi-Libertarian... (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 08:22:34 AM EST
    if you please;)  I just Got To Be Free.

    A Confusionist more than anything else.  Wouldn't mind being a liberal Democrat, but they don't want me unless it is to arrest me...hence the libertarianism in the stew.  Libertarians might leave me to starve or die if I needed help, but at least they leave ya alone;)

    Parent

    LOL! (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by Zorba on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:03:30 AM EST
    I just call myself a "dirty f*cking hippie."  That pretty much covers it, since the Democrats don't seem to want me, either.
    I have some sympathy for many of the libertarian stances, but I could never see leaving people to starve or die on their own. (Among other things.)

    Parent
    anarcho-syndicalist sounds better (none / 0) (#116)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 08:54:26 AM EST
    and there's no confusion with the rapacious side of libertarianism, either.

    Parent
    Good call Brother Jeff... (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:12:15 AM EST
    an anarchist with a sense of and belief in community.

    Anarchy is the ultimate of all the political philosophies, imo...on paper.  I'm ready when the rest of the human race is...no Tsar, no President, no King! ;)  Till then, I think I like a stew...dash of socialism, dash of libertarianism, even a dab of conservatism.  

    Zorba's dirty f8ckin' hippie works too;)

    Parent

    I met a friend's cousin (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by Zorba on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:37:58 AM EST
    a few years back (this was when G.W. was still president) and we got to talking politics, with my friend, who knew my political views.  Her cousin wound up saying "You're still a hippie from the 60's, aren't you?"  And I laughed and answered "Yep, pretty much."

    Parent
    And don't you ever change!...n/t (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 10:09:19 AM EST
    Which--as we know from father & son Paul-- (none / 0) (#91)
    by christinep on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:13:16 PM EST
    Is not exactly liberal.  Libertarians do seem to exhibit a conservative fiscal approach.

    Parent
    Ha! (none / 0) (#24)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:48:56 PM EST
    The value of having (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:50:18 PM EST
    some real "Commies" on the site to triangulate against. ( I kid.)

    Parent
    I know you are, ... (none / 0) (#54)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:28:05 PM EST
    Ah, I see (none / 0) (#15)
    by sj on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:38:42 PM EST
    sense of humor restored.

    Parent
    The Rose Garden transcript (none / 0) (#12)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:31:33 PM EST
    is here:

    After reading it, I agree that the weight of the evidence is on Obama's side, though it's certainly not a slam dunk.

    Parent

    That Would Put Romney... (none / 0) (#79)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:46:57 PM EST
    ...where, exactly ?

    A centrist would have not neglect to mention that if the evidence was on Obama's side, then that must mean Mitt...

    You're a winger, but in these times of wingnutz gone mad, thinking you are centrist seems pretty reasonable.

    I guess it depends how you slice it I guess, is a centrist the average or the median ?

    Parent

    Ok (none / 0) (#13)
    by lilburro on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:33:56 PM EST
    that source is definitely right leaning, for the record.  Here are some quotes from Jay Carney's WH transcript on Sept 20:

    [MR. CARNEY] It is, I think, self-evident that what happened in Benghazi was a terrorist attack.  Our embassy was attacked violently, and the result was four deaths of American officials.  So, again, that's self-evident.  I would point you to a couple of things that Mr. Olsen said, which is that at this point it appears that a number of different elements were involved in the attack, including individuals connected to militant groups that are prevalent in Eastern Libya.

    Q    I want to go back to something you said, the self-evident part of that.  Just help me understand that.  It was a self-evident terrorist attack because acts of terror were committed?  Or it was self-evident because you've -- because it actually happened on 9/11?

    MR. CARNEY:  No, no, no.  I'm sorry.  I meant it was self -- that had this happened on any day of the week in any month, this would have been a terrorist attack.

    Q    Can you -- have you called it a terrorist attack before?  Have you said that?

    MR. CARNEY:  I haven't, but -- I mean, people attacked our embassy.  It's an act of terror by definition.

    And here is President Obama on the 13th:

    So what I want all of you to know is that we are going to bring those who killed our fellow Americans to justice.  I want people around the world to hear me:  To all those who would do us harm, no act of terror will go unpunished. It will not dim the light of the values that we proudly present to the rest of the world.  No act of violence shakes the resolve of the United States of America.

    If guess we can argue about the difference between an "act of terror" and a "terrorist attack," the former being the specific phrase Romney used in the debate.

    Parent

    I was thinking to myself at the time that (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:42:17 PM EST
    the use of the term "terrorist attack" tends to invoke calls for an immediate war-like response; if calling it an "act of terror" was about holding the usual war-slavering dogs at bay for a couple days, I don't have any problem with that.

    What's more important in my mind is that Romney's response was intemperate, political and decidedly un-presidential.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I seriously do not want the president reacting to such events in that fashionm - or getting advice from his advisors to react in that fashion.

    Parent

    Yeah I mean (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by lilburro on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:53:27 PM EST
    if you want to complain about the Administration not putting the pieces together immediately, that's one thing (I take them at their word, more or less, that they are still investigating and I think that's appropriate).  

    Romney's trying to make them look incompetent but it isn't as though we weren't aware that an attack on the American embassy wasn't an act of terror.  Romney's wording was a bridge too far.  No, Obama did not say it was an organized terror attack when he was in the Rose Garden that day.  But Romney didn't use those words in the debate.  He was exaggerating and fear-mongering a bit.  He deserved to get slapped down for it.

    Parent

    Of course, yesterday was already a painful day for our nation as we marked the solemn memory of the 9/11 attacks.  We mourned with the families who were lost on that day.  I visited the graves of troops who made the ultimate sacrifice in Iraq and Afghanistan at the hallowed grounds of Arlington Cemetery, and had the opportunity to say thank you and visit some of our wounded warriors at Walter Reed.  And then last night, we learned the news of this attack in Benghazi.

    As Americans, let us never, ever forget that our freedom is only sustained because there are people who are willing to fight for it, to stand up for it, and in some cases, lay down their lives for it.  Our country is only as strong as the character of our people and the service of those both civilian and military who represent us around the globe.

    No acts of terror
    will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for.  Today we mourn four more Americans who represent the very best of the United States of America.  We will not waver in our commitment to see that justice is done for this terrible act.  And make no mistake, justice will be done.

    If he had said something like:

    No acts of terror, like that which occurred in Benghazi yesterday, will ever shake the resolve of this great nation
    what he was saying would have been a whole lot more specific. However, like I said above, I'll have to give this one to Obama.

    Parent
    Well I'm not going to really argue (none / 0) (#33)
    by lilburro on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:00:32 PM EST
    since you are giving this one to Obama :P but what I quoted above was at a separate event in Colorado 2 days later, to support the "act of terror as a Benghazi reference" language.

    Parent
    I'm an Obama fan - a big one (none / 0) (#16)
    by Mr Tuxedo on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:40:31 PM EST
    No one hopes more than I do for an Obama victory in three weeks. I detest the right-wing lunacy over Benghazi.

    But I have to agree that Obama's using the generic phrase "no acts of terror" on September 12 does not equate to his having described the Benghazi attack as an act of terror in his Rose Garden statement. The transcript just doesn't unequivocally support that assertion.

    As others have pointed out, Candy Crowley has already acknowledged that she was wrong. I will also say that if George W. Bush were still president, and if a debate moderator had "fact-checked" a key presidential debate in such as way as to favor Bush's talking points while introducing an error of relevant fact, then TL and every other left blog would be screaming foul.

    Our guy happened to win the point this time, and good for him. We needed this win! But that doesn't mean the wingnut Benghazi lunatics don't have a legitimate gripe in this instance. I'm disappointed that intellectual dishonesty among people on our side is pouring more fuel on this nasty fire.

    Parent

    That's just wrong (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:44:20 PM EST
    It simply is.

    One particular attack could he have been possible referring to in a speech about the attack on the Benghazi consulate?

    Your comment defies logic and common sense.


    Parent

    Without question (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:53:09 PM EST
    So you say (2.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Mr Tuxedo on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:02:50 PM EST
    But your comment, and this entire post, are defying the reality of the words in the Rose Garden transcript. And doing Obama no favors.

    Parent
    So everybody (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:05:45 PM EST
    with any sense says.

    I am curious, what acts of terror do you think the President was referring to in the Rose Garden remarks about the attack on Benghazi? The anthrax attacks?

    As for whose doing Obama favors, when you are regurgitating Fox News talking points, I think you need to check yourself on who is doing Obama favors.

    But it does not matter who is doing who favors, your argument makes absolutely no sense. None. Zero. Zilch.

    Parent

    Your blog (sort of), your rules (none / 0) (#38)
    by Mr Tuxedo on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:07:35 PM EST
    And I don't watch Fox "news."

    Parent
    So what (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:09:22 PM EST
    terrorist attack was the President referring to when he said "acts of terror?"

    Come one "Obama supporter?"  Give it a thought.

    Parent

    BTW (4.00 / 4) (#48)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:25:56 PM EST
    You are getting from me because you wrote "I'm disappointed that intellectual dishonesty among people on our side is pouring more fuel on this nasty fire. "

    Intellectual dishonesty was what you wrote.

    At this point, calling you stupid seems fair game to me.

    Parent

    Of COURSE he was ... (none / 0) (#88)
    by Yman on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:58:43 PM EST
    ... just as he did when he referred to it in his Las Vegas speech that same night.

    "For the record", you think he wasn't?

    Parent

    Are you unfamiliar with the meaning of (5.00 / 6) (#103)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:57:55 PM EST
    the word "initially?"  Because your failure to ackknowledge that qualifier is what allows you to make the arguments you have.

    Answer me this: did President Obama just go out into the Rose Garden with Secretary of State Clinton and just randomly make a generic statement?  Or did he go out there in response to the attack, and speak with reference to it - albeit in a rather broad fashion?

    And do you think, in the immediacy of the aftermath, when information was still being gathered, that it would have been responsible of the president to speak as if he had more information than he actually had?

    I realize there is a tendency to believe we are entitled to know whatever everyone else knows almost as soon as they know it, but the reality is that we don't.

    It never struck me that Obama and members of the administration were trying to hide anything, as much as they were trying to walk a fine line between going off half-cocked - like Romney did, without regard for the reaction and responses his comments might generate in the wake of what happened - and erring on the side of discretion in light of the possibility that what started as one attack could quickly blow up into more.

    Perhaps, in the wake of 9/11, and the constant and deliberate manipulation of intelligence and the facts that led us to war in Iraq, we are all a little jaded about what we are being told and why; it is equally true that some of this administration's decisions have left me less than thrilled.  But the powder keg that is much of the Middle East cannot be managed with the kinds of intemperate and irresponsible comments and reactions to the attack that we saw from Mitt Romney.

    I literally shudder to think where we might be had it been Romney in charge when the attack at Benghazi happened.

    Parent

    Thanks; I said just this upthread (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by Towanda on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 06:05:01 PM EST
    about a President having to be cautious in the aftermath of such an incident, while intelligence still is to determine possible attacks aimed at other sites -- but I was told it didn't pertain.

    Oh, it does.  And I'm amazed at how few of even Obama's supporters see this obvious point as to the role and responsibilities of the President to protect his people, our people, all over the globe.

    Parent

    So you're hanging your hat ... (5.00 / 4) (#110)
    by Yman on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 08:28:24 PM EST
    ... on the fact that you believe Obama was using the phrase "act of terror" is synonymous with the legal definition of terrorism under Title 22 of the USC, which categorizes acts for the purposes of the SOS's reporting requirements?

    Heh.  Desperate much?

    If you want to use legal definitions, why not choose 18 USC 2331(1), which defines "terrorism" for purposes of criminal law and procedure (as opposed to State Department reporting requirements):


    "[T]he term 'international terrorism' means activities that . . . involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; [and] appear to be intended . . . to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; . . . to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or . . . to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and [which] occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum

    See?  No premeditation required for "terrorism", let alone an "act of terror".

    BTW - Nice cropping of Rice's quotes.  Perhaps if you quoted them in full, you would recognize all of the qualifiers she attached to her statements:

    RICE:  They are not on the ground yet, but they have already begun looking at all sorts of evidence of -- of various sorts already available to them and to us. And they will get on the ground and continue the investigation. So we'll want to see the results of that investigation to draw any definitive conclusions. But based on the best information we have to date, what our assessment is as of the present is in fact what began spontaneously in Benghazi as a reaction to what had transpired some hours earlier in Cairo where, of course, as you know, there was a violent protest outside of our embassy--

    SCHIEFFER: Mm-Hm.

    RICE: -- sparked by this hateful video. But soon after that spontaneous protest began outside of our consulate in Benghazi, we believe that it looks like extremist elements, individuals, joined in that -- in that effort with heavy weapons of the sort that are, unfortunately, readily now available in Libya post-revolution. And that it spun from there into something much, much more violent.

    and

    MS. RICE: Well, let us-- let me tell you the-- the best information we have at present. First of all, there's an FBI investigation which is ongoing. And we look to that investigation to give us the definitive word as to what transpired. But putting together the best information that we have available to us today our current assessment is that what happened in Benghazi was in fact initially a spontaneous reaction to what had just transpired hours before in Cairo, almost a copycat of-- of the demonstrations against our facility in Cairo, which were prompted, of course, by the video. What we think then transpired in Benghazi is that opportunistic extremist elements came to the consulate as this was unfolding. They came with heavy weapons which unfortunately are readily available in post revolutionary Libya. And it escalated into a much more violent episode. Obviously, that's-- that's our best judgment now. We'll await the results of the investigation. And the president has been very clear--we'll work with the Libyan authorities to bring those responsible to justice.

    An "act of terror" (as opposed to the crime of "Terrorism") does not need to be premeditated

    Parent

    BTW - Several other definitions ... (5.00 / 3) (#111)
    by Yman on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 08:34:07 PM EST
    ... of terrorism, all of which do not require premeditation for the acts to qualify as "terrorism", including:

    US Code of Federal Regulations

    US Department of Defense

    USA Patriot Act

    Parent

    You couldn't possibly be more wrong either (none / 0) (#122)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 09:23:55 AM EST
    This attack was IMO premediated as far as Ahmed Abu Khattala is concerned.  He led it.  But he couldn't get enough of the fractured militias in Ansar al-Sharia to join together until the stupid video enraged all of them.

    So you are wrong.  It could easily be premeditated for one man and very spontaneous for all the rest of them that joined him in attacking the consulate that day.

    Which at this time is exactly what it looks like happened.

    Parent

    Also, "premeditation" ... (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Yman on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 10:08:33 AM EST
    ... as a legal term does not require something to be planned long in advance.  Not sure if there's case law regarding terrorism, but "premeditation" for murder purposes can occur within hours, minutes or even seconds.

    It is quite possible for the attack to be a reaction to the video and premeditated.

    Parent

    Really, guy? (5.00 / 4) (#44)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:20:00 PM EST
    Are you actually serious, trying to parse the difference between "terrorist act" and "acts of terror"?

    Wow. Talk about not your seeing the forest for the trees ...

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#52)
    by Mr Tuxedo on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:27:46 PM EST
    That is not what I'm doing.

    Parent
    Just being (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:28:32 PM EST
    intellectually dishonest.

    Parent
    One final word to Mr. Tuxedo (3.67 / 3) (#84)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:52:27 PM EST
    We strive for civility at this blog and we failed in this thread in many quarters.

    the proper thing for me to do was to delete your comment accusing us of intellectual dishonesty.

    I did not do that. Instead I went after you as I would do  in the old days.

    I hope you choose to express your opinions again at Talk Left, but do so with civility.

    Do not accuse people of intellectual dishonesty because they disagree with you.

    I would delete the entire exchange, but I think it would not be fair to other commenters at this time.

    Parent

    Not even close: (none / 0) (#86)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:55:20 PM EST
    as I would do  in the old days


    Parent
    See my comment below (none / 0) (#19)
    by Yman on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:43:37 PM EST
    If you think his Rose Garden comment wasn't clear enough, what about the comment from his Las Vegas speech (made the same day)?

    Parent
    I read your comment (none / 0) (#30)
    by Mr Tuxedo on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:55:44 PM EST
    In the Las Vegas statement, Obama is using the same carefully crafted phrase, and I understand all the good reasons why he would do that (in the Rose Garden, too). I support the President and the Secretary of State and am not criticizing their conduct in the Benghazi incident.

    But the point of my comment is that in last night's debate, Romney said that Obama did not explicitly call the Benghazi attack an act of terrorism in his Rose Garden statement, and Obama said that he did.

    I think Romney wins that point. And I don't think Candy Crowley did Obama any favors by trotting out her opinion as fact and then using it to "fact check" Romney. Sorry, but the transcript doesn't provide clear, unequivocal support for Crowley's opinion, and neither does the transcript of the Las Vegas statement, though I wish that both did.

    Parent

    Ridiculous (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Yman on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:09:26 PM EST
    In the Las Vegas statement, Obama is using the same carefully crafted phrase, and I understand all the good reasons why he would do that (in the Rose Garden, too). I support the President and the Secretary of State and am not criticizing their conduct in the Benghazi incident.

    What "same carefully crafted phrase"?  You mean the phrase "act of terror"? ... the very phrase Romney said he didn't use?  Or is your interpretation based on a belief that it somehow doesn't count because it didn't appear in the same sentence, ignoring the fact that he was clearly referring to the Benghazi attack?

    ... Thank you.  So I wanted to begin tonight by just saying a few words about a tough day that we had today.  We lost four Americans last night, who were killed when they were attacked at a diplomatic post in Libya.  And they were serving overseas on our behalf, despite the dangers, despite the risks, to help one of the world's youngest democracies get on its feet.  They were working to advance the interests and the values that we hold dear as Americans.  And as Americans, we stand united -- all of us -- in gratitude for their service, and we are mindful of their sacrifice, and we want to send out heartfelt prayers to their loved ones who grieve today.  (Applause.)

    It's a reminder that the freedoms we enjoy -- sometimes even the freedoms we take for granted -- they're only sustained because there are people like those who were killed, who are willing to stand up for those freedoms; who are willing to fight for those freedoms; in some cases, to lay down their lives for those freedoms.  So tonight, let's think of them and thank them.  As for the ones we lost last night:  I want to assure you, we will bring their killers to justice.  (Applause.)  And we want to send a message all around the world -- anybody who would do us harm:  No act of terror will dim the light of the values that we proudly shine on the rest of the world, and no act of violence will shake the resolve of the United States of America.

    Are you seriously trying to claim that his "act of terror" statement was completely independent of all the sentences immediately preceding it?  If so, ...

    ... have another drink.

    Parent

    That's not what Romney said (none / 0) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:59:47 PM EST
    You simply have your facts wrong.

    Parent
    OK (none / 0) (#42)
    by Mr Tuxedo on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:15:26 PM EST
    Here is the transcript from last night:

     

    ROMNEY: I -- I think interesting the president just said something which -- which is that on the day after the attack he went into the Rose Garden and said that this was an act of terror.

    OBAMA: That's what I said.

    ROMNEY: You said in the Rose Garden the day after the attack, it was an act of terror.

    It was not a spontaneous demonstration, is that what you're saying?

    OBAMA: Please proceed governor.

    ROMNEY: I want to make sure we get that for the record because it took the president 14 days before he called the attack in Benghazi an act of terror.

    You want lots of leeway to interpret the Rose Garden statement, but you also want to be a strict literalist with the transcript from last night's debate.

    I think the debate transcript can be interpreted as showing that Ronmey is calling Obama out for not describing the Benghazi attack as terrorism in his Rose Garden statement.

    And I think the Rose Garden statement can be interpreted either as showing that Obama is describing the Benghazi attack as terrorism OR that he is hedging his bets, since the situation was fluid (remember what was also going on in Egypt)and they were still trying to figure out what was going on. I think Obama's words were wise and carefully crafted. I do not think they were unequivocal, or meant to be.

    So you can accuse me of parroting points from Fox news, which I don't watch. And I can watch you defend the unseemly conduct of Candy Crowley because it favored Obama.

    Parent

    I accuse you of saying what Fox News said (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:24:25 PM EST
    Literally that is what you are doing.

    But I am glad you checked the transcript of the debate:

    "ROMNEY: I -- I think interesting the president just said something which -- which is that on the day after the attack he went into the Rose Garden and said that this was an act of terror.

    OBAMA: That's what I said."

    That is what the President said to any person conversant with the English language. Let's continue:

    "ROMNEY: You said in the Rose Garden the day after the attack, it was an act of terror."

    That is what the President said. Unless of course, you thought the President was referring to some other "acts of terror" in remarks about the Benghazi attack. I asked you before and I ask you again, if not Benghazi, what "act of terror" do you believe the President was referring to in those remarks?

    You had no answer before and I am positive you will have no answer again because the answer is the one that, for some reason, you wish to avoid - that in fact the President was referring to the Benghazi attacks.

    This of course is buttressed by the President's remarks in Las Vegas that evening and in Colorado on September 13. Either you know this and want to ignore it or simply have chosen not to find this out.

    Then Romney said "It was not a spontaneous demonstration, is that what you're saying?"

    Do you agree with Romney that the PResident said the Benghazi attack was the result of a "spontaneous demonstration" in his Rose Garden remarks? If so, could you quote from the remarks where you believe the President said this?

    Finally:

    "ROMNEY: I want to make sure we get that for the record because it took the president 14 days before he called the attack in Benghazi an act of terror."

    Do you agree with this statement from Romney, in the face of the Rose Garden  remarks, the Las Vegas remarks and the Colorado remarks on September 13?

    Because only Fox News and Republican sycophants agree with that.

    I'm not saying you are any of those things. I'm saying that's who you are aligned with on this.

    Parent

    For your alternative intrepretation of (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by MKS on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:29:21 PM EST
    Obama's Rose Garden comments about "acts of terror" to not apply to Benghazi, then:

        1.  Obama would have had to be referring only to all the acts of protest at other embassies where no deaths occurred, and

       2.  Obama was not referring to the actual killing of four U.S. citizens and our Embassador as "Acts of Terror."

    So, you are saying that Obama was not referring to the klling of four people as an act of terror, but meant that phrase to only apply to the other protests?

    Thus, in this alternative view, protesting by throwing rocks and burning our flag is an act of terror, but killing our people is not?

    Again, what acts of terror could Obama be talking about during a discussion of the death of four U.S. citizens?


    Parent

    Intellectual honesty (1.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:32:31 PM EST
    is not to be found from Mr. Tuxedo.

    Parent
    One last point (3.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:27:15 PM EST
    If you have ever seen me defend Candy Crowley about anything EVER, you might have a point.

    I have called her an imbecile and a rule breaker and I did in my live blog.

    You are simply an intellectually dishonest and stupid person.

    Parent

    So....apropos of nothing.... (none / 0) (#49)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:26:08 PM EST
    he talks about acts of terror in rose garden remarks specially arranged to commemorate the deaths in Benghazi.

    Come on.

    Parent

    Maybe was talking rose bush pests. (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:28:02 PM EST
    Mosquito bit him and compelled him to (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:41:54 PM EST
    speak out.

    Parent
    Mr. Tuxedo (1.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:28:10 PM EST
    is intellectually dishonest.

    Parent
    I'm glad Obama won the point (none / 0) (#62)
    by Mr Tuxedo on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:31:17 PM EST
    when the referee interfered.

    Parent
    That's even worse (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:34:15 PM EST
    You should be upset that "intellectual dishonesty"
    won the day.

    For the umpteenth time, what act of terror" do you think the President was referring to in his Rose Garden remarks?

    Parent

    about to happen during the debate, I don't know what to tell you, hell I honestly don't know how Romney didn't hold back, it was clear from the president's reaction that he knew had Mitt but Mitt just kept right on walking into the bear trap.

    Parent
    I think my other comments (none / 0) (#56)
    by Mr Tuxedo on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:28:32 PM EST
    sum up what I have to say about this. If you care to read them.

    Parent
    None of your comments (1.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:29:23 PM EST
    identify which "acts of terror" you believe the President was referring to in his Rose Garden remarks.

    Your intellectual dishonesty is showing.

    Parent

    Nonsense (none / 0) (#64)
    by Mr Tuxedo on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:32:19 PM EST
    I've said Obama was wisely hedging his remarks. So have others here.

    Parent
    Again (none / 0) (#73)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:39:51 PM EST
    you fail to state what "acts of terror" the President was referring to in his remarks.

    I could interpret your comment to mean the President
    was implicitly referring to the Benghazi remarks to "hedge" but then you would be conceding the point.

    If your argument is Romney SHOULD have said "Obama should have pointedly and expressly by name said the Benghazi attacks were acts of terror in his Rose Garden remarks," that would be a an argument about what  Romney SHOULD HAVE SAID, not whether what Romney DID SAY was true.

    Try a little intellectual honesty Mr. Tuxedo.

    Parent

    Big Tent, you're relying on a false premise (3.50 / 2) (#124)
    by citizenjeff on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 04:56:51 PM EST
    "you fail to state what 'acts of terror' the President was referring to in his remarks."

    Obama wasn't referring to any particular incident; he made a general statement about "acts of terror."

    Romney was distinguishing between a premeditated and spontaneous killing. It's Obama and his supporters - not Romney - who decided to quibble over semantics. Romney made it clear what he meant, and he asked the president to clarify what he meant, and Obama refused to do so:

    Romney: "It was not a spontaneous demonstration, is that what you're saying?"

    Obama: "Please proceed, Governor."

    Parent

    The only centrist on TL ... (none / 0) (#17)
    by Yman on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:41:33 PM EST
    ... citing an opinion piece from Phillip Anschutz's Washington Examiner.

    Double "heh".

    BTW - If the Rose Garden quote wasn't good enough for you (or the op-ed writer), here's a quote from a speech Obama made the same day in Las Vegas:

    (Referring to the Libya attacks)
    ... As for the ones we lost last night:  I want to assure you, we will bring their killers to justice.  (Applause.)  And we want to send a message all around the world -- anybody who would do us harm:  No act of terror will dim the light of the values that we proudly shine on the rest of the world, and no act of violence will shake the resolve of the United States of America.


    Parent
    But LV doesn't count per Mr. (none / 0) (#25)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:49:32 PM EST
    Romney as it was a fund raiser trip.  

    Parent
    Jesus Christ (none / 0) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:54:05 PM EST
    What makes you think ANYBODY knew immediately who was responsible?  What makes you think any of that information was immediately available?  What makes you think a sitting President should jeopardize his ability to bring those accountable to justice by feeding you every detail once he knows who, what, when, where, and why?

    By the way, the current intel now points to THE FACT, that the video triggered this attack.  Ansar al-Sharia is very fractured and factious, but the video united the clans and the attack was led by Abu Khattala.  Ansar al-Sharia has no single leader, but it did for a moment after that stupid effing video.....duh!

    And whatever you do please don't investigate anything, just argue the talking points you get fed by campaigns and soundbite media all day over and over again.

    Parent

    sad (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Philly on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:26:59 PM EST
    The repeated references to "the offensive movie" in the first two weeks appears in hindsight to have been a fiction, typical government propoganda to distract/minimize the severity of what happened.

    That being said, Romney looked like a a fool last night for being caught up in the minutia of what/when Obama did or didn't say.  Even giving Romney some benefit of the doubt, does any American really care whether Obama immediately called this incident an "act of terror" or not?  A bunch of our guys died, and likely in horrible ways I don't want to even think about.

    Worse, by nitpicking over the exact expression Obama used the day after their murder, Romney fed right into the accusation that he was trying to exploit this for political purposes.

    The moment Obama stated that he accepted all responsibility, it was completely inappropriate for Romney to continue pressing him.

    The only things really worth focusing on IMO are the beaurocratic failures that caused the requests for additional security to be ignored, and how we can minimize the chance of this happening in the future.

    Call me cynical, but I don't really even care that much about "bringing the killers to justice."  These sorts of revenge missions almost always end in massive losses of innocent lives, and don't seem to deter future attacks.


    Parent

    No, it is not a fiction (5.00 / 0) (#63)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:32:07 PM EST
    Go read recent news reports.  The State Department was correct, the movie united factions of Ansar al-Sharia.  But keep spinning in your spittle.

    Parent
    No, the movie (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by MKS on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:32:43 PM EST
    was the motivation for many of the protests worldwide.

    And, the latest from the New York Times is that the attackers at Benghazi said they were motivated by the movie.   Not so simple as you state.

    Parent

    Hear Hear MKS (none / 0) (#69)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:34:51 PM EST
    Someone else cares to know what really happened!

    Parent
    Additional security (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by MKS on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:37:33 PM EST
    The testimony at the House hearing is that even if the request for additionl security had been granted, it would not have made a difference.

    The additional security requested was not enough given the magnitude of the attack.  Some of the requests were pretty small ball, e.g., a higher wall around the consulate.

    It would have taken a company, or at least a platoon, of Marines to defend against the attack that occurred.  No one requested that kind of support.

    Parent

    And the military suit who admitted this (none / 0) (#74)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:40:55 PM EST
    Was also someone who asked for additional forces and was upset about not getting them.  It was an honest assessment.

    Parent
    The request was for Tripoli (none / 0) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:41:22 PM EST
    Not Benghazi.

    That is a matter of record.

    Parent

    Yep, that's what I thought (none / 0) (#77)
    by MKS on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:45:14 PM EST
    but wasn't totally clear so did not want to overstate.

    Issa is my rep.....Redistricting....totally whacked guy....Why Maher likes him is beyond me.

    Parent

    Reference, then, to "consulate" (none / 0) (#81)
    by MKS on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:48:41 PM EST
    in my earlier post would be incorrect.

    Parent
    No that would be correct (none / 0) (#83)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:49:59 PM EST
    The embassy is in Tripoli.

    Parent
    Sorry for you - he is horrible (none / 0) (#82)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:48:53 PM EST
    I hate it when he shows up on Maher. Almost as bad as Coulter.

    Parent
    I feel (none / 0) (#109)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 08:22:22 PM EST
    your pain. So sorry about your rep. He's as bad as what we have here in GA.

    Parent
    I am also sorry Obama had to (5.00 / 5) (#72)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:38:18 PM EST
    argue on the right's terms. I don't care to visit their world long enough to find out what would be so terrible about not calling the attackers terrorists. It makes no difference at all to me. I think it is a very murky definition at this point.

    There is no way to Romney not to feed into the accusation that he is exploiting it for political purposes....he is very explicitly doing just that. Not even trying to deny it.

    Parent

    As a matter of fact, every word Romney says (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:47:47 PM EST
    in public is exploiting something for political purposes, since he has no public job at the moment and no reason to comment on anything except to make a political point. If he is not exploiting things for political purposes he should just pick a house to go home to and shut up.

    Parent
    I don;t completely agree with this comment (none / 0) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:31:10 PM EST
    but this is an intelligent argument against the Obama Administration's handling of the Benghazi events and aftermath.

    Mr. Tuxedo, there are lessons for you in this comment.

    Parent

    I think you are confusing (none / 0) (#35)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:05:30 PM EST
    my discussion of the topic that BTD posted with a different topic that you wish to discuss.

    Parent
    Your argument is about whether or not (none / 0) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:14:42 PM EST
    Obama called Benghazi a terrorist attack or an act of terror or some such $hit in the rose garden, or the garden of roses, or the house of white's garden of roses....right?

    Fact....he wasn't sure who did it and chose his wording carefully.  Did a good job as usual.  The extremists in the area are very factious.....go read up about it if you care to, it has always been out there to read.  He knows now though who led it.  You can know now too if you choose to know now.  You can move yourself forward in understanding or spin in circles chasing your tail.  I really don't give a phuck.  Just pointing out that you are standing their spinning in your own spittle.  

    The whole Benghazi talking points faux issues is craptacular.

    Parent

    How may one parse this? (none / 0) (#45)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:21:41 PM EST
    [Y]ou are standing their spinning in your own spittle.  



    Parent
    I told you I don't know the difference (none / 0) (#60)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:30:36 PM EST
    between they're their and there :)  I don't understand all this discussion about what the President called the attack in the house of White's garden of roses.  We were attacked, our amabassador was killed along with three others.  Because the extremists are so factious we couldn't know for certain who did it.  And when we do know we will double and triple check that before we release that info, if the release of that info is okay'd.

    I don't understand how some people can't get beyond the President's "wording" after horrible tragedy, what was used as a noun and what was used as an adjective and what sort of discriptor it was :)  I feel like TSA is demanding to look up a whazoo, something not called for and not needed in this instance :)  I just wanna get on the plane and go home, the day sucked horrible.

    Parent

    I absolutely agree. Made Romney (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:36:17 PM EST
    look extremely petty, and I kind of wonder about the "uncommitted voter" from Long Island who posed the question about Libya to start with.  

    Parent
    There, there, MT (5.00 / 4) (#112)
    by Peter G on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 11:32:02 PM EST
    They're trying to get you to argue on their terms over there.

    Parent
    Nicely done, Peter. (none / 0) (#113)
    by caseyOR on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 11:40:39 PM EST
    I applaud you.

    Parent
    YOU don't understand? (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:54:12 AM EST
    I've been away for a few days, didn't see the "act of terror" news conference, nor the "Women Binder" portion of the debate.

    Now, if you ever wondered how screwed up our country is, try coming in, back from the wild like I did, and get caught up by only reading all the comments about these events.

    Are we nuts???

    Try to pretend you don't know anything about the Libyan attack, then read this thread. You won't believe your eyes. It's like a conversation among Groucho Marx, the Three Stooges, Monte Python, Laurel & Hardy, and Abbot & Costello.........and moderated by Prof. Irwin Corey.

    We truly have gone over the edge.  


    Parent

    Well it is a hell of a lot more (none / 0) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:33:40 PM EST
    Informative than watching you gaze at your navel.