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Wednesday Morning Open Thread

I'll be back today flying solo on Daily Kos Radio from 11 to noon Eastern today. Discussing the debate.

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Open Thread.

< The Moment | The Moment: With Video Annotation >
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    Sometimes it is nice to be wrong (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 09:02:31 AM EST
    I thought that the military would swing Romney but NOPE, Obama has received twice the campaign donations.  I was wrong wrong wrong.

    Looks like my guy (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by brodie on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 09:20:23 AM EST
    finally showed up last night, threw some sharp jabs, actually took it to his opponent.  Now if he can repeat this performance, go after Willard some more for trying to politicize FP tragedies and for wanting to get the US into another ME war or two, we may be able again to put this one out of stealable reach.

    And I was impressed enough with Obama's performance to actually send him some of my hard earned cash, first time this campaign season.  

    For Monday, superstitiously, I intend to repeat most of my personal routine of yesterday -- early morning crude oil scalp massage and shampoo, late afternoon pre-debate workout, avoid all media pre-game blather.  Linguine with tomato sauce for dinner.

    Lance Armstrong (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by CoralGables on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 09:31:15 AM EST
    dropped by Nike, and steps down as Chairman of Livestrong today. The PR backlash to both has obviously been devastating. Nike usually stands by their athletes in the worst of times.

    "Due to the seemingly insurmountable evidence that Lance Armstrong participated in doping and misled Nike for more than a decade, it is with great sadness that we have terminated our contract with him. Nike does not condone the use of illegal performance enhancing drugs in any manner."


    Kind of a bummer what is going to (none / 0) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 10:30:55 AM EST
    happen to the Livestrong "brand".  I've gone to their website more than once reading about nutrition and even legal supplements, healthfood store items.  I have enjoy the input, seems factual and honest.  I even use the FRS chews, not because I like Lance but because they work.  If I have a busy day I chew two of those and I don't feel like I need a nap in the afternoon.

    Parent
    Loving BTDs recount of The Moment (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 10:20:44 AM EST


    Great point BTD about how the right wing (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by magster on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 10:34:09 AM EST
    noise machine led Romney into the biggest debate gaffe last night by creating their own reality that Mitt relied on as actual reality. It's really a surreal event ...

    Mitt's pretty good at creating his own reality; (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 10:41:26 AM EST
    what he's not used to is the temerity of others exposing it, tearing it down and leaving him more or less naked to the world.

    Mitt without his reality to rely on is about as scary as anything I've seen lately.

    Parent

    Yup - I need a transcript of BTDs (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by ruffian on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 10:48:27 AM EST
    talk about this. Perfectly states the real meaning of this.

    Parent
    I wish there were a transcript of each (none / 0) (#18)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 01:34:51 PM EST
    day's program.  

    Parent
    Surprised by Crowley being the one to factcheck (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by magster on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 10:39:21 AM EST
    as I considered her sympathetic to the right-wing and part of the media problem. I guess the lie was so blatant, she felt her credibility was threatened had she let it slide.

    If you haven't read Charlie Pierce (5.00 / 6) (#12)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 10:57:20 AM EST
    today, you're really missing out.

    Here's a sample:

    Those of us who lived under the barely distinguishable leadership of Willard Romney in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts (God save it!) know very well that the emotional membrane separating Lofty Willard from Snippy Willard is thin indeed, and that the membrane separating Snippy Willard from Dickhead Willard is well-nigh translucent. Both of those membranes were tested fully here on Tuesday night by the president, by Candy Crowley -- who has clearly had enough of your bullshit, thank you very much -- and by the simple fact that certain members of The Help tested the challenger's ideas and found them wanting and, my dear young man, that simply is not done. And both of those membranes failed like rotting levees in a storm.

    [snip]

    But not even I expected Romney to let his entitled, Lord-of-the-Manor freak flag fly as proudly as he did on Tuesday night. He got in the president's face. He got in Crowley's face. That moment when he was hectoring the president about the president's pension made him look like someone to whom the valet has brought the wrong Mercedes.

    "You'll get your chance in a moment. I'm still speaking."

    Wow. To me, this was a revelatory, epochal moment. It was a look at the real Willard Romney, the Bain cutthroat who could get rich ruining lives and not lose a moment's sleep. But those people are merely the anonymous Help. The guy he was speaking to on Tuesday night is a man of considerable international influence. Outside of street protestors, and that Iraqi guy who threw a shoe at George W. Bush, I have never seen a more lucid example of manifest public disrespect for a sitting president than the hair-curling contempt with which Romney invested those words. (I've certainly never seen one from another candidate.) He's lucky Barack Obama prizes cool over everything else. LBJ would have taken out his heart with a pair of salad tongs and Harry Truman would have bitten off his nose.

    Read it all - you won't be sorry.

    I liked Chris Hayes' point last night... (5.00 / 6) (#13)
    by magster on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 11:05:48 AM EST
    ... that the debate rules explicitly say (section 5 (e) of the agreement) that neither party is allowed to ask the other party a question, and that Romney came storming out of the gate with that tactic, and that it was emblematic of the 1%'s view that rules just don't apply to them.

    Probably to convuluted a point to make much hay out of politically, but it really is revelatory of Mitt the rich a-hole that we all saw in the fundraiser event video.

    You just know that Romney is one of (5.00 / 6) (#16)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 11:16:21 AM EST
    those people who drive on the shoulder to an exit ramp instead of waiting in his lane, who gets into express lanes because he's in a hurry and doesn't care that the 47 items in his cart will be holding someone else up, who straddles two parking spaces so no one parks too close to his precious vehicle.

    Charlie Pierce perfectly summed up Romney's entitlement:

    And Romney bitched endlessly -- endlessly -- about the rules, and why this uppity fellow on the other stool was allowed to speak before he was spoken to, and why he didn't get to speak at length on whatever he wanted to speak on because, after all, he is the CEO of the stage. Jesus Christ, I'd hate to play golf with the man. He's the guy who counts to make sure you don't have too many wedges in your bag. He knows every cheap subsection of every cheap ground rule, and he'll call you on every one of them. You couldn't get a free drop out of him with thumbscrews, and forget about conceding any putt outside two inches. And then, on the 18th hole, with all the money on the line, he kicks his ball out of the rough and denies up and down to the rules committee that he did it. Then he goes into the clubhouse bar and nobody sits with him.

    Mitt: he's just so...special, you know?

    Parent

    *too (none / 0) (#14)
    by magster on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 11:06:12 AM EST
    still listening to KOS radio (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by DFLer on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 11:30:33 AM EST
    they're discussing how the CNN wired audience flat-lined when Romney said to the President...shut up and wait your turn etc. Now the guys on the radio think it's because "authoritarian men" are offended by this disrespect of the office etc.

    I think they have it wrong. I think those wired men responded negatively because they may have seen that kind of behavior in a boss or supervisor and they resented the bullying and disrespect often shown in the real world to the hard working staff or line stiffs.

    I just played perfect poker... (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 02:02:49 PM EST
    ...and got my ass handed to me by a 60 year-old Ukranian lady who caught AK and AA every phucking hand. It was truly unreal. Everyone at the table said sorry to me, that it was freakish, never happens.  I hope Olga the CardShark wins the whole tourney today.  And I hope I stop screaming sometime in the next three hours.  I love cards!!!

    Sometimes it rolls that way, brah... (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by jeffinalabama on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 02:10:12 PM EST
    like getting aces cracked 4 times in a row. Still love cards here, too.


    Parent
    The two joys of gambling... (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 02:18:03 PM EST
    the joy of winning, and the joy of losing.  It's the action that counts.

    Run better next time D-Rock...good to see you on a weekday Jeffrey, I was starting to think you only came around on Saturdays to be ducking me;)

    Parent

    "I have never gotten so lucky... (none / 0) (#24)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 02:29:31 PM EST
    "...too bad for you, handsome young man."

    I kid you not. She was too much. I almost said to her: "Wait a second. Say moose and squirrel. I dare you."

    Parent

    Ha! (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 02:34:31 PM EST
    Clearly, Helmuth is not your role model.

    Parent
    I like Huck Seed (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 02:43:00 PM EST
    A giant CalTech dropout who drops a lot of something else, I think.  Ahem.


    Parent
    I like Huck too... (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 02:53:47 PM EST
    great name, great table manners, great player.

    What really endeared me to him was the Chris Moneymaker story...Chris and a buncha people went to the strip club to party after his historic WSOP win.  Chris was ten grand short for the ginormous tab, and the club owner demanded cash only on the spot.  At 5 am.  One of the revelers called Huck Seed, who drove down immediately and gave Chris the ten grand in exchange for a check.

    That's a f8ckin' cool dude right there.  

    Parent

    Class all the way (none / 0) (#29)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 02:58:00 PM EST
    Dude never seems to be anything but chill.

    But I do love the story about him making a prop bet with somebody, maybe Hellmuth, that he, Seed, could stand chest deep in the ocean for 24 hours. I think they had 25k on it. Huck lasted about two hours. CalTech ain't all that. Lol.

    Parent

    Those dudes will bet on anything (none / 0) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:08:53 PM EST
    (looks in mirror as he realizes he has been betting NASCAR.)

    Parent
    NASCAR? (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:19:22 PM EST
    That is bad...there's an 800 number for that BTD;)

    Parent
    I've got an excuse (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:32:13 PM EST
    Had a great Vegas trip with some old buddies, one of who is great friends with Jimmie Johnson, the NASCAR driver. There was a NASCAR race in Vegas that weekend.

    I know what you are thinking, cuz I was thinking it too - effing NASCAr race?

    But it was great. We got the royal treatment, got to be right there on pit row, luxury boxes to go get good food and drink, hung with Johnson before the race, the whole works.

    So I bet Johnson a lot (mostly for a Top 3 finish.) And actually am up a little.

    Parent

    Say no more... (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:38:30 PM EST
    having a connection to the driver, makes perfect sense now...I'd do the same.

    Parent
    Makes no sense financially (none / 0) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:40:51 PM EST
    But I'm lucky it was Johnson, cuz he runs good most every week.

    Parent
    Believe me, I know (none / 0) (#36)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:14:11 PM EST
    And it was brought home to me when I played in that WPT even last year in Jacksonville.  It was at a dog track, and between every hand, it seemed, the poker pros were running to the monitors to watch the latest dog race they had a grand on.  Dogs!  I'd almost (sarcasm alert) rather bet on bumfights.

    Parent
    Too funny (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:39:34 PM EST
    Reminds me of when I was in college and we would go to Foxboro for the trotters.

    At the time, there was a dominant jockey/rider (whatever you call them) named Hogan, and the odds would be completely dependent on what horse Hogan had (sort of like Cordero used to be in New York, but that was because Cordero was just a really popular guy as well as a great great jockey).

    Anyway, the trick was to try and figure out what Hogan was supposed to do in the race (we were sure the races were fixed), so we would try and figure out what result was best for the house and then figure the bet.

    Never could figure it out. But we kept blowing our money anyway.

    Parent

    now you're talking clairvoyance (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:50:12 PM EST
    i can touch that game.  ;-)

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:55:25 PM EST
    Hell, KDog nailed it, we just loved the action.

    There was nothing we did that did not involve betting.

    Golf, bowling, quarters, you name it.

    Parent

    Damn (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:56:26 PM EST
    I just remembered, we used to gamble on f*cking Pac Man.

    Parent
    Quarters, holy phuck (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:10:55 PM EST
    When I was the ClubWPT qualifier at the Jacksonville Main Event last year, my liaison was Freddy Deeb's daughter. After I busted out, on my birthday no less, she and Tony Dunst (20-somthing poker pro and WPT TV "Raw Deal" commentator) took me out for drinks with all the other young players who had busted out. They were really keen on me playing beer pong with them.  But I had too many memories of quarters and puking in the laundry room the next morning, when washing the previous night's vomit out of my sheets, and I just couldn't do it. Trying to picture my mid-40s ass playing beer pong with a bunch of 23 yo degens, please, what am I thinking, I should've done it. Damn!  Lol.  

    Parent
    Damn straight! (none / 0) (#69)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:15:28 PM EST
    "Action" is fine, (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 10:29:39 AM EST
    Knowing the winner is finer.

    My buddy, a jockey apprentice whose father was a trainer, ran at old Monticello race track, upstate NY. They needed a shill in the stands to place their bets for them. (yeah, they were all fixed.")

    Never had so much fun cashing tickets, and laughing at all the suckers ripping up theirs.  

    How far up did the racket go? Not sure, but they gave me Dust Commander @18-1 (Kentucky Derby winner, 1970)

    Yup, good times.


    Parent

    Drivers (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Zorba on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:59:00 PM EST
    They're called drivers.       ;-)

    Parent
    Be careful (none / 0) (#47)
    by CoralGables on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:23:31 PM EST
    greyhound racing has always been big in Florida. There were three racetracks in the Jacksonville area until they consolidated them to race at one venue and simulcast to the other two. I believe they then opened card rooms at all three (circumventing the laws of the state but you expect law changes like that from state politicians after they get their palms greased)

    Parent
    Those degens... (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:12:43 PM EST
    and their prop bets.  I like this Ted Forrest classic...he bet somebody he could finish a marathon on the scorching UNLV track.  Ted won...his sneakers melted, and he went straight from the finish to the hospital for foot injuries...7 grand richer.

    Parent
    7 lousy grand!!! (none / 0) (#39)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:15:46 PM EST
    Good lord.  Maybe 7 mil and I do it.

    Parent
    The money doesn't mean sh*t... (none / 0) (#42)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:18:44 PM EST
    to those guys...if it did, they wouldn't be any good at poker.  

    Parent
    Ha! (none / 0) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:35:34 PM EST
    I guess I shouldn't laugh but damn that's funny.

    Parent
    University of California all the way, baby!! (none / 0) (#65)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:06:27 PM EST
    N/T

    Parent
    Have you ever played (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:14:35 PM EST
    with Mike Baxter (a/k/a Silent Mike?) One of my best friends.

    Parent
    Here's his most famous moment (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:16:45 PM EST
    link.

    Classic Helmuth tirade ensued.

    Parent

    Great clip (none / 0) (#48)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:27:44 PM EST
    Hellmuth, to me, can never live down wrecking that UB stock car in the parking lot during his belated WSOP entrace, driving into a phucking pylon with no one within a mile of him. What a jakeoff.

    Parent
    He is a jerk (none / 0) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:33:41 PM EST
    At least so I am told.

    Parent
    He doesn't exactly do anything... (none / 0) (#53)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:36:50 PM EST
    ...to dispel the rumors.

    Parent
    For a fleeting second I thought (none / 0) (#58)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:44:53 PM EST
    maybe the guy in the Yankees cap was Armando.  

    Parent
    Those dudes are waaay out of my league (none / 0) (#59)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:47:41 PM EST
    I would not play dollar poker with Dadler or KDog.

    I like to gamble, not give my money away.

    Parent

    Have you tallied your lifetime record? (none / 0) (#61)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:50:14 PM EST
    In poker? (none / 0) (#62)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:52:44 PM EST
    Oh I am definitely down thousands at least.

    In college football, my rosy memory puts me up pretty significantly over 30 years.

    In every other betting endeavor, definitely down.

    I only win consistently at college football.

    I lose over time at everything else.

    Parent

    Not sure (none / 0) (#41)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:17:20 PM EST
    The name sounds familiar.  All's I remember is I had Andy Frankenberger, reigning WPT player of the year, to my left for two hours.  And he was getting a massage the entire time. I felt like such a greenhorn.

    Parent
    Whereas Mr. Adams is the perfect (none / 0) (#44)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:19:34 PM EST
    illustration of "poker face."  Isn't there some kind of rule the players can't be talking during the game?  How irritating.  

    Parent
    I hear ya... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 02:35:13 PM EST
    bad form to say anything...just sympathetically shrug your shoulders and ride the horseshoe stuck up your arse, thats my motto.

    Parent
    Poker language is soooo colorful. (none / 0) (#46)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:22:17 PM EST
    had quads the other day (none / 0) (#22)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 02:12:24 PM EST
    that got busted by str8 flush hit on the river.

    sh*t happens.  only 52 of those bastards.

    how's the health, my friend?

    Parent

    Please explain the meaning of (none / 0) (#30)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:06:32 PM EST
    "on the river."  (Does CA have riverboat gambling?)  CO?  Term of art in poker?

    Parent
    Texas Holdem (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:11:29 PM EST
    each player gets 2 cards.

    Then  5 community cards (cards that can be used by all players to make a 5 card hand) are dealt in the following order -

    (1) 3 cards are dealth (the flop)

    (2) 1 card is dealt (the turn)

    (3) 1 card is dealt (the river).

    There is betting before the flop, before the turn, before the river and after the river. (4 betting opportunities.

    In no limit hold em, you can bet it all at any time.

    Parent

    Thank you (none / 0) (#49)
    by sj on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:31:40 PM EST
    Much like the Sat. morning (none / 0) (#55)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:39:14 PM EST
    college football post, not sure I will (or need to) remember this, although the video clip does illustrate "the river."  

    Parent
    Doing better. Still trying to build (none / 0) (#77)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 08:57:14 AM EST
    some strength, but it's a slow process. Hoping to get some energy to go grind in November... I want some Christmas money! Thinking of hitting the Philadelphia, MS tables. Some lower buying mini tourneys and maybe a 5-10 table.

    Parent
    Hey Jeff (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:12:53 PM EST
    Have you been playing at Bovada lately? Play is spectacularly bad again.

    Easy money, particularly in Omaha and Omaha H/L. So easy that even I am killing it.

    Hold em play has been reasonable.

    Parent

    Have you cashed there yet? (none / 0) (#67)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:14:38 PM EST
    I am dying to play online, but am wary of everything. Do you think it's worth a small deposit?

    Parent
    cashed OUT, I mean (none / 0) (#68)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:14:58 PM EST
    Yep (none / 0) (#70)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:44:32 PM EST
    very efficient.

    Get in within a week.

    Parent

    Hmm...thanks (none / 0) (#71)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 04:59:04 PM EST
    How'd you deposit, btw? (none / 0) (#73)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:10:03 PM EST
    If that's not too personal.

    Parent
    I have an internet only (none / 0) (#74)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:14:53 PM EST
    bank account. I put money in it and deposited through that account.  

    DO NOT use your own cards or bank account, Wells Fargo has a service that let's you set up a separate acct for internet transaction use only.

    Parent

    thanks again (none / 0) (#76)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 06:22:03 PM EST
    Haven't been playing lately, (none / 0) (#78)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 08:59:30 AM EST
    BTD... but I might have to play some Omaha tonight. Thanks for the tip!

    I've cashed a few times--3 or 4-- from bovada, no problems at all, Dadler.

    Let's hope for a 2 hour energy burst and some wide open omaha tables today :)

    Parent

    After the arranging of the chairs (none / 0) (#1)
    by CoralGables on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 08:53:57 AM EST
    at the pre-funeral yesterday, today's show should have the feeling of the second coming of Lazarus.

    Mitt Romney got a walk on all his lying (none / 0) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 10:55:05 AM EST
    During the first debate.  The press ignored it until complainers made them address it, which they did briefly.

    On behalf of the "undecided voters" (none / 0) (#15)
    by KeysDan on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 11:11:42 AM EST
    in the swing states, I am mounting a campaign to persuade  the several secretaries of state to propose "late voting."  A suggestion to provide two parking places for each voter at the polling place was vetoed by a member of this campaign owing to the mass confusion that would be caused in the parking lot.

    Glenn Greenwald re current (none / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 02:07:20 PM EST
    debate framework and who pays the bills:

    Presidential debate issues

    But (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by CoralGables on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:14:25 PM EST
    Greenwald's article ultimately shows why a "journalist" shouldn't try to wrote the story before the event takes place. He phones it in, took the night off, and looks a little foolish today because his story went up in smoke thirty seconds after the debate started.

    Parent
    He's a really busy guy these days! (none / 0) (#45)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:21:01 PM EST
    But I didn't see the piece as a view of this particular debate, but a look at the sham-ness of the present system.  

    Parent
    Proof-reading? We don't need no (none / 0) (#31)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 03:08:43 PM EST
    Shoot. They caught it. "sox" changed (none / 0) (#72)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 05:09:04 PM EST
    to "Stock."  

    Parent