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Israel-Gaza Day 6

By Jeralyn, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 02:25:44 PM EST
Tags: Israel, Gaza (all tags)
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The fighting continues as do truce talks. According to Israel Defense Forces:

Today 67 rockets fired from #Gaza hit #Israel. Overall, more than 650 rockets hit Israel in the last six days.

Israel says Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields. (Video here and here.)They are prepared to move to ground attacks if the rocket attacks don't stop.

The Iron Dome has stopped about 90% of the rockets fired into Israel. Here's how the Iron Dome works. [More...]

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    Israel-Gaza Day 6 | 39 comments (39 topical)

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    Death and destruction (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by koshembos on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:54:18 PM EST
    This is not the first deadly and destructive skirmish between Hamas and Israel. These skirmishes do solve any problem. Worse, while Israel becomes economically and technically more advanced, the Palestinians in Gaza fall further behind. That's bad.

    Instead of taking sides, quite common, all countries and parties will help if they emphasize solutions instead of assessing blame.

    Hamas using weapons acquired in Libya. (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Tamta on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 11:41:34 PM EST
    LAT

    snipped//

    After observing a self-imposed cease-fire for most of the last four years, militants in recent months increased their attacks on Israel, using new types of weaponry acquired in Libya last year after the chaotic fall of Moammar Kadafi, such as antitank and antiaircraft missiles.

    Impossible (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:41:05 AM EST
    With Gaza an area only twice the size of Washington, D.C., with a population of 1.5 million people, how exactly are Hamas supposed to avoid using Palestinians as human shields?
    This is not a defense of Hamas, it is a call of BS on that heartless talking point to excuse killing innocents. It's old.
    For starters (none / 0) (#18)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:17:51 AM EST

    ...  how exactly are Hamas supposed to avoid using Palestinians as human shields?

    Avoid rather than choose locations adjacent to schools and hospitals to place rocket launchers and magazines.

    Colocation of military assets with civilians is a war crime and Hamas should be held accountable rather than excused.

    Parent

    You mean like torture (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Yman on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 07:25:12 AM EST
    Colocation of military assets with civilians is a war crime and Hamas should be held accountable rather than excused.

    Sorry - when you defend war crimes being committed by the U.S., demands for accountability ring a little hollow.

    Parent

    I think you missed the point (none / 0) (#25)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:31:07 PM EST
    on purpose.

    Parent
    If the point (none / 0) (#33)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 02:14:59 PM EST

    If the point is that Gaza is so packed with civilian occupied structures that every possible rocket site is close by, then whoever is making that BS point has not bothered to check Google maps satellite view.  

    Link

    Parent

    Who started this? (2.00 / 1) (#3)
    by diogenes on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:15:45 PM EST
    HAMAS started firing rockets at Israeli civilians.  This led to the Israeli counterattack in self-defense.  How exactly does Hamas get off scot-free in this?
    If Castro shot missiles at Miami, would we feel great pangs of conscience if our bombing of Havana killed some civilians?  Come on, already.
    Maybe if Gaza civilians associate Hamas shooting of rockets with their own streets being leveled in response then they will rein in Hamas a wee bit.

    So largely unarmed civilians... (5.00 / 5) (#7)
    by Dadler on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:56:05 PM EST
    ...are supposed to rise up and defeat heavily armed militants supported by many foreign interests?

    And since totalitarian governments oppress their people greatly, thus rendering their people powerless in the face of overwhelming force, I would hope that I, as a sentient human being, indeed DID have huge pangs of conscience over those Cuban civilians being blown to smoldering pieces. No matter the perceived "power" of the civilian dead, when you stop having those pangs, you've lost a very essential part of your humanity.  

    Parent

    The press is talking about Hamas (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 10:10:49 PM EST
    Having rockets from Libya.  Guess it's confirmed now.  The fears that caused 4 brave Americans to risk everything are realized.  This is why we are in Libya, and why the CIA was attempting to be so ghostlike and buying securing arms that are leaving Libya now.  Can I get a couple more screaming and howling Republicans who then don't show up to the briefings please?

    Parent
    If this is true, then I don't understand (none / 0) (#11)
    by caseyOR on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 10:18:37 PM EST
    why Obama, or a high-ranking administration official, doesn't lambaste McCain and Graham and King and the other blowhards over this.

    Make the case loudly and publicly that this is the secret work CIA was trying to protect.

    Pretend McCain's a DFH if that helps get the dander up, but go after him. McCain is a fool, and it is long past time we stopped taking anything he says seriously.

    Parent

    Same reason the Petraeus briefings (none / 0) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:43:34 AM EST
    Aren't public.  When we evacuated some of our CIA we were worried about after the attack, when some of our spooks came out of hiding, one Libyan official said we had so much CIA there that he didn't know about that he said it was a threat to Libyan sovereignty.  Most of the people who were removed from the Consul the day of the attack were also CIA.  We are still trying to quietly destroy weapons caches and buy weapons probably undercover.  Having a public fight with John McCain about what a worthless scumbag he is only makes success undercover in Libya more difficult and that is more important than that old dumb jerk.

    Parent
    Wrong missiles (none / 0) (#14)
    by BTAL on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:35:03 AM EST
    The "missing" Libyan missiles were short range, mobile/shoulder launched SAMs previously part of Gadhafi's arsenel.  The search for those missiles started in 2011.

    Link

    The missiles in Gaza are the long range Iranian build & supplied Fajr-5 which were smuggled in via Sudan and Egypt.

    Link

    Parent

    Wrong! (none / 0) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:33:20 AM EST
    Those are the worst of the worst, but we are terrified what ALL of the weapons that hit the streets of Libya are going to end up doing.  And Gaddafi had more sophisticated weapons than say Saddam or what Afghanistan had left laying around.

    Parent
    Follow the links in the google search results (none / 0) (#21)
    by BTAL on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:07:27 AM EST
    and pay particular notice of the dates.  The Libyan missiles are an issue but, not in relation to what is happening in Gaza.  The Libyan missiles missing circa 2011 are not the type being launched from Gaza into Tel Aviv.

    Parent
    I know this conversation bothers you (none / 0) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:33:55 AM EST
    Because Your Guys are phucking up giant again.  Since when has the only factor in starting a war between Israel and Hamas been the ability of Hamas to have rockets that can reach Tel Aviv?

    Sounds like they may not have anymore of those and that's a good thing, but they have plenty of other stuff now, much of it from Libya. And that is where John McCain is losing it and he is making Republicans look like blazing idiots and also more like the destroyers of national security and not the bringers of national security.

    McCain literally has intelligent members of his party having nightmares about what Hamas has from Libya and whether or not it will end up inflicting some real damage on Israel. You guys can spin your stories every way you want too, but I would have thought that you'd have noticed after this last election that nobody is buying your B.S.  

    Parent

    The point (none / 0) (#26)
    by BTAL on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:44:30 PM EST
    is that the missiles you referenced in the original comment are not the same or even relevant to what is happening in Gaza.  Nor, is there a connection to Amb. Stevens.  The McCain rant is a deflecting strawman.

    Parent
    Wrong again (none / 0) (#34)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 02:30:35 PM EST
    YOU are referencing those "specific" missiles, not me.  And you are only attempting to deflect from a factual discussion about the new and improved weapons Hamas now has that have arrived from Libya that we do know about.

    The CIA working in Libya isn't making your grand distinction either because what is on the line is more important than Fox News talking points.  They are attempting to secure all arms and caches because the proliferation is extremely dangerous.

    And if anyone knows where the missing heat seeking surface to air missiles are that can knock any airliner out of the air with no aim needed, that seems to be something not shared with you or I. That is all rumor and speculation right now for us, but the rest of it isn't and there have been many small reports made making it very clear to Americans who care about Libya issues specifically that we have a quiet mission taking place on the ground right now. For most of us who understand the worst that can happen, this is an important and needed mission.  One that John McCain just can't seem to stop placing in jeopardy and making himself look like some blithering national security destroying fool over.

    Parent

    which is why (none / 0) (#23)
    by Slayersrezo on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:08:29 PM EST
    Obama's "brilliant" decision to support the Libyan rebels has obviously worked out so well.

    Love or hate him, Gaddaffi (with less bloodshed than Saddam) had brought stability to that region and kept those missles out of the hands of terrorists.

    Parent

    Imagine if George Bush (none / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:29:11 PM EST
    Ran it like he did Iraq.  We would have WW3 on our hands by now.  How delightful!

    Nobody could have handled any of this better, but every Republican since my birth would have handled it a whole lot worse.

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#29)
    by Slayersrezo on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 01:03:04 PM EST
    We could have either stayed out of it, or directly helped the Libyan regime retain power.

    That we did neither is all on Obama and no one else. It was his call, and it was on his watch.
    Republican bashing doesn't even apply.

    I hope you continue to be "proud" of this joke of a Commander in Chief.

    Parent

    Because of the arms proliferation (none / 0) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 01:14:53 PM EST
    problems, no CIC could have "stayed out of it".  Our President continues to do the right thing.

    Parent
    And he will be CIC until (none / 0) (#38)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:24:06 PM EST
    forever!

    Or at least for more than 4 years from now.  

    Parent

    I do not think that is accurate. (none / 0) (#36)
    by Tamta on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 05:10:42 PM EST
    I think it is quite fair to say, looking at election history in Israel alongside eruptions of violence, that Palestinian extremists tend to increase their violence right before election time. So nothing new here, in that sense. (Although what is new is that there is new destabilization and new unknowns surrounding Israel: Syria, Egypt, etc.)

    1996,2001,2008 terror rose, and shifted many voters to the right. See Israeli Elections.

    The truth of the matter seems that a hard right Israeli government is really good for  Hamas, and also offers legitimization for anti-Israel agenda held by other Arab regimes-nothing new there either.

    Hamas does not want to negotiate with Israel- ever.
    They want to destroy Israel, and unequivocally.
    They will never accept Israel.

    The hard right  Israeli coalitions also do not want to concede and their heavy handiness inevitably makes Hamas look like it 'won'.
    They have nothing to lose by provoking Israel.

    It is a cycle of insanity- nothing new.

    Bringing down Hamas I don't think is feasible- and looking at recent US attempts at democracy 'building' as you pointed out, maybe not a good idea either.

    Can Abbas or a figure like Abbas, be enabled to deliver improved circumstances that could underscore,  for the average Palestinian,the masochistic tactics of Hamas, long enough to turn the tide away from extremism and start negotiations?

    Could that in turn allow for a more stable election environment that would in turn allow Israeli's to vote in, a peace seeking leadership?

    It is really hard to not sound either naive or machiavellian on this issue.


    Parent

    Courtesy of (none / 0) (#27)
    by Tamta on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:50:22 PM EST
    Iran.

    Parent
    Track Hamas' recent order of (none / 0) (#28)
    by Tamta on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:57:01 PM EST
    Fajr 5s.

    Parent
    debates over which side started "this" (none / 0) (#17)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:54:49 AM EST
    when it comes to I/P, are totally useless, pointless and divisive.  So all I am going to say is "really"?  This is where it all started in your mind?

    Parent
    Who started it? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Tamta on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 04:32:53 PM EST
    Hamas.

    Parent
    Ariel Sharon's kid ain't helping any (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:46:24 PM EST
    "We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza." (link)

    Wow, the apple really doesn't fall (none / 0) (#2)
    by caseyOR on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:52:29 PM EST
    far from the tree.

    At what point are the actions of Israel a bridge too far for the U.S.? No, i don't support the shelling of Israel. But, seriously, calling for the destruction of Gaza? Shouldn't support of that be a line the U.S. refuses to cross?

    Parent

    The right wing... (none / 0) (#5)
    by Dadler on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:50:13 PM EST
    ...runs Israel, and it's getting rightier by the minute it seems.  Netanyahu, it seems, is an alternate translation of Dick Cheney.

    Parent
    Netanyahu is terrible for Israel (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by shoephone on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 09:47:05 PM EST
    That was true of his prime ministership in the late 90's, and it's true now. One wonders why the people keep regurgitating the same failed leaders into power again and again.

    Full discolsure: I am no fan of Hamas. I don't care that they won an elecion, I do not consider them to be legitimate governmental leaders. Hamas is still a terrorist organization, and still uses civilians as human shields. However, if Tzipi Livni had been allowed to form the new Israeli government in 2009 instead of Natanyahu (her Kadima party won one more seat in the elections than the Likud) we might have seen a very different approach to the plight of the Palestinians. She opposed Netanyahu's "land reform" project, and has long favored a two-state solution. Netanyahu, on the other hand, has been unduly provocative by continuing to build Israeli settlements in disputed areas. And he is cynical and unmoved by the apartheid conditions suffered by the Palestinian people. He's a chauvinist. He just doesn't care. And frankly, I don't think Hamas cares either. They need to have Israel as their foil in order to get support, and they are committed to the martydom syndrome.  

    There's a lot of blame to go around. Too bad neither side has thoughtful leaders who are genuine in attempts to forge a peaceful solution to this long, ongoing crisis. The whole thing really makes me sick.

    Parent

    yup (none / 0) (#16)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:48:55 AM EST
    a pox on both their houses.

    Parent
    It will take artists (none / 0) (#31)
    by Dadler on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 01:08:31 PM EST
    Of whatever stripe, on both sides, to bring this family together.  And they are a family, both consider themselves Semitic.

    Parent
    Sounds a whole lot like (none / 0) (#8)
    by Zorba on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 07:03:59 PM EST
    "The only good Indians I ever saw were dead."
    General Philip Sheridan.
    I sure as he!! hate to say this, but I see no solution to this whole very tragic mess.

    Parent
    No, and neither are American Islamists (none / 0) (#13)
    by Tamta on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:21:13 AM EST
    who routinely  seek justice and mutual understanding, in failing to acknowledge Hamas' rockets and their apparent lack of concern in keeping the people of Palestine out of harms way. Hamas Rockets?Where?

    Parent
    I agree, with one caveat (none / 0) (#30)
    by Dadler on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    We, as the more free and secular and "enlightened" folks, are supposed to strive to be better. I don't get that from either side in this conflict, much less the more free and secular side.

    Parent
    Agreed. (none / 0) (#37)
    by Tamta on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 05:17:07 PM EST
    However, the secular voice is not the voice of the hard right coalition slated to win in January. That is the voice (Israeli right), that Hamas likes the best it seems.

    Parent
    Does Castro have missiles? (none / 0) (#4)
    by fishcamp on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:46:48 PM EST
    You should see all the firepower we have down in Key West at the Boca Chica Naval Air Station.  Jets rip through the sky all the time scaring the bone fishermen.  I don't think anything is getting through our stuff and I doubt we would bomb Havana.  

    Israel-Gaza Day 6 | 39 comments (39 topical)

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