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    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 206 (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Dadler on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 12:33:06 PM EST
    FYI (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:15:25 PM EST
    When the site is down, there is a backup site where messages are posted.  
    talkleftbackup.blogspot.com

    It's a good way to see, like me, if work has finally blocked leftie sites, or the servers at TL are officially down.  

    Work will never block leftie sites ... (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 04:37:55 PM EST
    ... as long as I'm the guy wearing the big sombrero and in charge.
    ;-D

    Parent
    Sigh (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:31:02 PM EST
    New Obamacare Headache: Is Your Enrollment Real?

    Obama administration officials acknowledged today that some of the roughly 126,000 Americans who completed the torturous online enrollment process in October and November might not be officially signed up with their selected issuer, even if the website has told them they are.

    Technical problems surrounding the transfer of an applicant's personal information from the federal marketplace to the selected insurance company have plagued the system since its launch, making it difficult for insurers to finalize some enrollments. The 834 forms that issuers receive from the system have been riddled with errors, including often duplicate or incomplete information.

    While the front-end of the website has been vastly improved, the back-end glitches remain a serious concern, IT experts and industry officials say.



    Add insult to possible injury... (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:40:25 PM EST
    sounds like more public assistance for highly profitable insurance companies is in the works.

    Parent
    I seriously (none / 0) (#31)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:43:21 PM EST
    hate every single person involved with this endeavor.

    Parent
    Hate is a strong word... (none / 0) (#35)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:59:54 PM EST
    is what it is kid...the trick is expecting no better from elected representation.  Hate the game, not the players.

    I tend to think it's not as simple as a bad batch of big money fellators in DC.  We've got systemic f*ckin' problems bigger than any one presidential administration and/or session of Congress and/or federal judiciary.

    Parent

    Oh, I don't mean (none / 0) (#39)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:14:06 PM EST
    just the politicians and their mouthpieces who sold us this bill-o-crap.

    I mean the insurance companies too.

    Parent

    They didn't "sell" us... (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:18:59 PM EST
    customers have some choice in the matter...this kinda sh&t is, has been, and always will be dictated.  Not sold.

    The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting.

    - Charles Bukowski



    Parent
    I Don't Blame You... (none / 0) (#36)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:05:08 PM EST
    ...but can't they call to confirm.  I know, but at least they will know before they they need a doctor whether they have insurance.

    And kdog in this case, when you are messing with people's health and wealth, hate is probably too soft of a word.

    Parent

    We're talking about insurance... (none / 0) (#38)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:13:32 PM EST
    which I view as a different animal than actual health and health care.  Related of course, but different.  

    Believe you me bro, I'm as down on how we roll as a society as anybody.  But to quote Colonel Tanner, "All that hate's gonna burn you up kid."

    Parent

    For Many Folks... (none / 0) (#50)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:55:41 PM EST
    ...there is no health care without insurance, it's the gatekeeper to health, aka longevity.

    So few people receive adequate health care without insurance, including Medicaid, it's not even worth discussing IMO.

    Parent

    Medicaid is not (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by the capstan on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 05:30:54 PM EST
    all THAT lacking.  My Downs daughter, almost 57, has it where she lives.  And I am constantly battling to stop the medicaid doctor from carrying out tests and 'cures' that she does not need.  I finally sent the caretakers a 'manifesto' warning that I (as parent) would block certain procedures that may be routine for a normal woman her age but are pointless or would be unnecessarily invasive for her: a  colonoscopy (the prep would be horrendous), continued pap smears, shots for osteoporosis, etc.)

    Some things she fights (pap smears), others she does not need (the shots), and a colonoscopy is far beyond her ability to comprehend.  I added that end-of-life care for her does not mean keeping her alive when life would prolong pain or unhappiness.  She has had a good life with all her deficits (kayaking, snorkeling, hiking, traveling across country and abroad, being 'included')--and I will not pile burdensome and painful treatments on her just because they are 'usual' for normal women of her age.  She was never normal and they cannot apply their standards willy-nilly while her siblings and I are around.

    I can only assume that since medicaid doctors get paid for treatments for the severely handicapped, they would likewise collect for their normal patients.  Apparently, medicaid payments to the doctors are nothing to sneeze at and the doctors do not mind 'collecting.'

    Parent

    On what do you base this claim? (none / 0) (#68)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 05:47:06 PM EST
    So few people receive adequate health care without insurance


    Parent
    Some info on this claim: (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 05:57:23 PM EST
    Link

    8. 45,000 annual deaths are associated with lack of health insurance (1). That figure is about two and a half times higher than an estimate from the Institute of Medicine (IOM) in 2002. The uninsured do not receive all the medical care they need -- one-third of uninsured adults have chronic illness and don't receive needed care (2). Those most in need of preventive services are least likely to receive them.

    1. Wilper, et al "Health Insurance and Mortality in U.S. Adults," American Journal of Public Health; Vol. 99, Issue 12, Dec 2009
    2. Wilper, et al "A National Study of Chronic Disease Prevalence and Access to Care in Uninsured U.S. Adults" Ann Intern Med, Aug 2008; 149: 170 - 176.

    There are some additional facts related to health insurance and health care at the main link.

    Parent

    That does not define "so few." (none / 0) (#73)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 06:09:27 PM EST
    In actual fact, there are many "people who receive adequate health care without insurance."

    Namely the young and healthy, of which I used to be one.

    Would I consider it at my age now? No, of course not.

    Parent

    When presented with facts that quantify (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 06:25:08 PM EST
    the effects of not having insurance, you want to make the argument about how to define "few," so perhaps you could share with us how many deaths from lack of insurance would be acceptable to you?  How many people suffering with untreated chronic health conditions because they lack insurance would be okay?  

    Parent
    like this:

     On what do you base this claim?

        "So few people receive adequate health care without insurance"

    You are arguing something/many things I did not say, and nothing that I did.

    Parent

    Based on My Opinion... (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 11:08:17 AM EST
    ...from years of reading, discussion, and whatever else has shaped my opinion.

    I think the point word/phrase you have issue with isn't "so few", but rather 'adequate'.  Which to me means a yearly physical from birth, to not seeing a doctor when sick/hurt because of the costs.

    Things easily overlooked when young, but even in college, when we had some sort of basic care at the health center it was too costly for myself to get regular care and/or care when I was very sick.  I was in no way the brokest d1ck in college, but my budget had no room for medical care.  I only visited the health center for the free condoms, never once in 5 years did I see a doctor.  That is not adequate care and it was entirely due to cost.  

    I should note that I am very lucky in that I am a healthy person.  But since the day I had insurance I do go in for the yearly examine, yearly dental, and bi-annual eye examine.  But plenty of sickly people, most of whom I seem to work with, who see the doctor fairly regularly because they are not lucky in regards to their health.

    I was once hit on my bike by a car, knocked off and knocked out, I awoke in an ambulance and when we arrived at the hospital, I refused service.  Never mind it wasn't my fault, that $350 ambulance bill in 1988 was more than all my other monthly bills and then some.  Although I was not seriously injured, I took some lumps and antiquate care would have allowed me to be examined before leaving.  Surely others in that situation are not as lucky as me to go home without a check-up and not have any further injuries.  I got lucky many times in regards to my idiotic younger years and my health and well being before I received insurance.

    The driver never stopped.  So I was stuck with the BS bill and my main mode of transportation looked like a very expensive pretzel.  I know it's only $350, but my others are dealing with thee same sort of choice and not having insurance almost guarantees not having adequate care unless one is independently wealthy, or at least pretty well-off, which isn't most people.

    So I will say it again, so few people receive adequate health care without insurance, including Medicaid, it's not even worth discussing IMO.

    the capstan.  
    The 'including Medicaid' was meant to include them in the insured group, not that Medicaid was a bad program in any way.

    Parent

    That does not define "many" (none / 0) (#74)
    by Yman on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 06:14:23 PM EST
    In actual fact, there are many "people who receive adequate health care without insurance."


    Parent
    Uh, yeah, exactly the point. (none / 0) (#75)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 06:20:42 PM EST
    "So few" and "many" are similarly meaningless.

    Parent
    I once deposed a geotech engineer as an expert (none / 0) (#79)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 06:39:09 PM EST
    witness. He was born in Turkey but had lived in the U.S. For many years. No indication he needed an interpreter. Every indication he resented being questioned by a female attorney. I asked him to estimate the number of times he had been deposed as an expert witness.   He said "several."  Much later, he said this meant "about 50."  

    Parent
    How many years is "many?" ;-) (none / 0) (#83)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 07:27:43 PM EST
    had lived in the U.S. For many years.


    Parent
    Good catch! (none / 0) (#84)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 07:45:55 PM EST
    Few and many, context is everything! (none / 0) (#87)
    by Politalkix on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 09:32:15 PM EST
    Question: How many years have you been married?
    Twenty five? You have had just a few years of married life. You have another fifty to go!

    Question: How many medicines are you on?
    One? That is one too many!

    Parent

    Definition of many (none / 0) (#86)
    by ragebot on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 09:04:54 PM EST
    is very dependent on culture.  Some very primitive tribes count one, two, many.  This is not to say the concept of many is not understood.  Eskimos have dozens of words to describe snow, kinda like we modify the word snow as wet snow, or dry snow, or power snow.  Tribes living in the South Pacific make similar distinctions about blue water.

    Bottom line is arguing over the definition of many seems kinda silly to me.

    Parent

    Ya. I was watching some show on Discovery (none / 0) (#93)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 11:35:50 PM EST
    or something, about a remote tribe in the Amazon that didn't have numbers. iirc, they understood "a" object, and "numerous" objects but nothing in between.

    This allowed other tribes to take advantage of them in trading. But even after outsiders who, ostensibly, had their best interests in mind and tried to teach them numbers, they simply were not able to get it.

    Parent

    I am Still trying to Locate that Show (none / 0) (#129)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 10:33:40 AM EST
    Here's "a" tribe, (none / 0) (#130)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 11:36:59 AM EST
    not sure if it's the same one I saw the show on:

    The Piraha.

    More.

    Oh yeah, and I forgot that they also didn't have time or calendars.

    Parent

    All this time people were under the (5.00 / 4) (#44)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:24:17 PM EST
    impression that "the problem" was just with the website experience, and no one was addressing, or discussing, that the website is only part of the equation.  Yes, it's certainly important that people can get in, get registered and start shopping, but the most important part of this process is getting the correct enrollment information to the insurance companies - the 834 forms - so that, come January 1, or whatever the effective date is supposed to be, people have insurance, and that the policy they have is what they think they signed up for.

    From lambert at Corrente:

    An 834 is an electronic form that healthcare.gov (or any of the state sites) sends to your insurance company with all the information they need to issue you a policy; it summarizes the information you filled out on the site, but in a format that computers can understand. If the 834s are screwed up, your policy is screwed up. ...

    And what seems to be happening are problems with these 834 forms.

    I don't know what the next level worse than "clusterfk" is - FUBAR? - but it's clear that there is still a long way to go to making this operation work and not enough time to get it done.

    Parent

    Well, (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:35:01 PM EST
    The media missed the story big time.

    And then you had the folks who insisted on rah-rah-ing, instead of looking at the facts.  (You know who they are).

    So, it's not surprising that some people were so misled.

    Parent

    The initial stories about the website problems (none / 0) (#62)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 04:59:30 PM EST
    discussed the problem that people who thought they had successfully maneuvered through the site to signing up, were not, in signed up according to the insurers.

    Parent
    I like this guy more and more (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:24:12 PM EST
    On (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by lentinel on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 04:57:56 PM EST
    the other hand...

    The Vatican has refused to provide information requested by the United Nations on the alleged sexual abuse of children by priests, nuns or monks.

    The Vatican said the cases were the responsibility of the judicial systems of countries where abuse took place.

    So - is he is, or is he ain't...

    Parent

    Why should the UN be involved? (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 05:13:44 PM EST
    The Vatican is right on this one. The UN can't enforce the law, and has no legal jurisdiction. And honestly, it really can't highlight the problem any further than what's been done so far.

    Parent
    Everyone should be involved. (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by lentinel on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 07:05:14 PM EST
    The Vatican, the Holy See, the Pope -whatever - all should welcome the opportunity to provide information to the United Nations about child abuse.

    This isn't about enforcing laws.
    It is about providing information.

    And the Vatican isn't interested in doing so.


    Parent

    Lentinel (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by jbindc on Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 06:44:26 AM EST
    A first step.

    VATICAN CITY -- In his first concrete step to address the clerical sexual-abuse problem in the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Francis will establish a commission to advise him on protecting children from pedophile priests and on how to counsel victims, the Vatican said Thursday.

    The announcement was a forthright acknowledgment by the Vatican of the enduring problem of abusive priests, and fit with Francis' pattern of willingness to set a new tone in the governance of the church nine months into his tenure.

    Whether the new commission portends a significant change in how the Vatican deals with abusive priests and their protectors remains to be seen, experts on the church said. Yet the timing of the announcement, two days after a United Nations panel criticized the Vatican over its handling of abuse cases, suggested that the pope and his closest advisers wanted to at least be seen as tackling the issue with greater firmness.

    Soon after he became pope, Francis directed the Vatican last April to act decisively on abuse cases and punish pedophile priests, in a meeting with subordinates at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the church's enforcement arm. But he had said little about the sexual abuse problem since.

    SNIP

    Precisely who will serve on the advisory commission and what authority it will have remained unclear. But Cardinal Sean P. O'Malley, the only American among the eight cardinals advising the pope, said it would include priests, men and women from religious orders and laypeople with expertise in safeguarding children, and that it would offer advice on pastoral care rather than judicial functions. That seemed to signal that it would not make proposals for exposing or punishing abusive clerics.

    The commission will have a broad mandate including the development of "norms, procedures and strategies for the protection of children and the prevention of abuse of minors," the Vatican said in a statement.

    It could also develop guidelines for cooperating with civil authorities, reporting of crimes and compliance with civil law, the Vatican said. Procedures for "screening and checking of previous offenses" and "the state of action of requests for psychiatric evaluation" could also be examined.

    And the NYT Editorial Board had this to say:

    With the world now fascinated by the new pope, Francis has placed his reputation on the line in choosing to confront the problem more openly, rather than burying it once more in one of the maws of the Vatican bureaucracy.


    Parent
    I am skeptical. Setting up a commission? (none / 0) (#141)
    by oculus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 07:35:39 AM EST
    Stay tuned.

    Parent
    How long has he been Pope? (none / 0) (#88)
    by NYShooter on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 10:03:03 PM EST
    "Pope Francis is staunchly opposed to the "stupid" practice of reassigning priests who are accused of pedophilia, preferring to drum them out of the priesthood instead.

    The former archbishop of Buenos Aires -- then known as Jorge Cardinal Bergoglio -- favors "zero tolerance" for priestly sexual abuse and criticized previous cases in the U.S. where accused clerics were simply moved to other parishes, according to a book of conversations he had with Rabbi Abraham Skorka.

    During his 14 years as archbishop, Bergoglio ordered church officials to report all allegations to the police rather than simply moving them to avoid damaging the church." (emphasis mine)

    Solving one of the most entrenched and endemic problems ever within the Catholic Church will take a little more time than shouting baseless charges from the sidelines against a man who has been Pope a few short months.

    Try reading a little first. That's what I intend to do.

    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by lentinel on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 08:48:56 AM EST
    with you about Pope Francis.

    I have read with interest about his statements since becoming Pope and his actions as archbishop.

    I have great hopes for him - as I had lost all faith in his predecessor.

    However, reading about the Vatican's refusal to cooperate with the UN's request gave me an uneasy feeling. Not necessarily about Francis, but about the nature of the bureaucracy that he is said to want to reform.

    Bureaucracies have a way of destroying those who wish to confront it - and the Vatican is one of the most entrenched bureaucracies in the world.

    So, I am on the side of the new Pope, but the Vatican's response makes me somewhat apprehensive about what he can actually achieve - and - worry somewhat about the longevity of his tenure if he seriously threatens the corporate machinery that is in place.

    Parent

    When our guide in Burma told us young girls (none / 0) (#63)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 05:04:14 PM EST
    sometimes did not want to attend schools taught by Buddhist monks, I thought the problem must be fear of molestation. Wrong. They did not want to be physically punished for incorrect answers.

    Parent
    Oh, merciful heavens! (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 05:08:52 PM EST
    Their monks were obviously trained by our nuns.
    ;-D

    Parent
    Yep...the nun boppers. (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by fishcamp on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 09:18:19 AM EST
    I got bopped in school for being left handed among other infractions.  Had to do way too many stations of the cross.

    Parent
    Good. I can think of a few people ... (none / 0) (#56)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 04:43:13 PM EST
    ... presently taking up space in the Holy Mother Church who are in dire need of some serious bouncing.

    Parent
    British government (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by shoephone on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 05:57:58 PM EST
    goes after the Guardian newspaper, and pretty much acts like a new Stasi-in-the-making.

    The top editor of the British newspaper The Guardian told Parliament on Tuesday that since it obtained explosive documents on government surveillance from a former National Security Agency contractor, Edward J. Snowden, it has met with government agencies in Britain and the United States more than 100 times and been subjected to measures "designed to intimidate."

    The editor, Alan Rusbridger, said the measures "include prior restraint," as well as visits by officials to his office, the destruction of Guardian computer disks using power tools and repeated calls from lawmakers "asking police to prosecute" The Guardian for disclosing the classified material in news articles.

    Mr. Rusbridger was testifying before a Parliamentary committee looking into national security matters. He faced aggressive questioning from lawmakers, particularly those of the ruling Conservative party. Some asserted that The Guardian had handled the material irresponsibly, putting it at risk of interception by hostile governments and others. Others said that the paper had jeopardized national security.

    At one point during the hearing, to his evident surprise, Mr. Rusbridger was asked whether he loved his country. He answered in the affirmative, noting that he valued its democracy and free press.

    He also said The Guardian would "not be put off by intimidation" but would also not act recklessly.



    Eff you (3.67 / 3) (#89)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 10:07:52 PM EST
    J and I have been very busy and don;t  always have time for this.

    What an effing a**hole.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but (4.57 / 7) (#101)
    by Anne on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 10:22:40 AM EST
    I read Edger's comment as being directed not at you or Jeralyn, but at the commenting community.  In fact, I had considered posting a comment along the lines of, "don't assume that no comments means no one cares - sometimes it just means that people are discouraged, disheartened and generally tired of speaking out and speaking up and it changing nothing."

    But everybody seems to be on a hair-trigger, ready to explode in anger at the drop of a hat, or looking to pick a fight with someone; your comments to Peter looked like fight-picking to me, since he is unfailingly one of the most thoughtful, reasoned, rational commenters here, and his presence almost always elevates the discussion.  And I have no idea why you would tell someone to eff off for wanting so-called progressives to have some response or reaction to the Obama DOJ defending members of the previous administration from a lawsuit.

    But, whatever...

    Parent

    Yeah well (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 10:50:28 AM EST
    Everyone sees it there own way I guess.

    I'm tired of it all to be frank.

    I haven't be posting much here, because of no time (I post very little anywhere.)

    But I guess I don't have the patience for the sniping anymore that seems to be the staple here (including by Peter in that comment, imo of course.)

    It's simply not enjoyable to me anymore.

    YMMV.

    Parent

    I agree that the sniping has become (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by Anne on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 11:56:56 AM EST
    really bad, but telling someone to "eff off" is just adding to the toxic atmosphere.

    And I have to disagree with your perception that Peter was sniping; while I'm sure he can do it, I don't think it was present in his initial comment to you - although your response to him was sufficiently dismissive that it prompted what was, for Peter, about as close as I've ever seen him come to taking a tone.

    But even then, he managed to apologize for his words being taken in way he didn't intend.

    The good (?) news is that no one's likely to take  "eff you" in any way other than how it was intended.

    Parent

    Oh I meant the eff you (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 11:58:58 AM EST
    I suspended myself because it violated the site rules.

    In my opinion, the eff you was entirely merited.

    The comment it was directed to was insulting and ridiculous.

    Imo of course.

    Parent

    Priceless: (none / 0) (#115)
    by oculus on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 12:04:43 PM EST
    Oh I meant the eff you.


    Parent
    Your interest seems to be radio now. (none / 0) (#106)
    by oculus on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 11:30:36 AM EST
    Not even (none / 0) (#107)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 11:51:44 AM EST
    I do the sports show once a week.

    I twitter some.

    But I really do think the commentariat here has gotten pretty ridiculous with the sniping.

    And yes, I think that infected Peter, who as everyone noted, is our most courteous commenter.

    I have little standing on this given my virtual nonparticipation at the site for the pat months, but I'm just expressing my view of how it felt for me to post and react to the comments engendered.

    It was incredibly offputting and, just as commenters in the past have said about me, made me not want to post here.

    Which means, given my recent output, very little I realize.
     

    Parent

    It seems to me Peter (none / 0) (#110)
    by oculus on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 11:58:00 AM EST
    is entitled to disagree. The only alternative is a la Greenwald's, post but don't permit comments. Must your devoted readers resort to Twitter and/or sports radio?  Hope not. Who will so perceptively analyze and moderate the next presidential primaries/election?

    Parent
    Everyone is entitled to disagree (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 12:02:44 PM EST
    I found Peter's disagreement to be quite churlish, uncharacterically for him of course.

    It's nice that everyone rushed to Peter's defense from my horribly churlish comment (and to Edger's defense as well).

    I just found it ironic given the toxicity of these threads.

    I will write sometimes of course, not here though I don't think.

    Not enjoyable.

    If I want Daily Kos level toxicity, I can;t just post there and not think about it.

    thought this site would be better.

    It isn't.

    Parent

    DK has it's own level of (5.00 / 4) (#117)
    by oculus on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 12:08:26 PM EST
    toxicity and a huge amount of commenters who just ignore the subject of the post.

    Here, the faithful remain, even in the absence of a host, but await fresh meat--you.

    Parent

    Good God oculus (2.75 / 4) (#139)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 07:46:14 PM EST
    I am not for any blogger showing up to be fresh meat.  That's just stupid.  Why why why would someone waste hours writing and researching a solution based posting just to have everyone show up to write lengthy paragraphs of how impure the solution is?  People who have never put their arse or reputation on line coming up with any political solution and exposing it to such scrutiny.

    BTD is becoming affiliated with a pack of anti-Obama psychos.  Other left bloggers on facebook characterize this place like that now.  Other people who put real time, research, and energy into political writing would never expose this place to their writings at this time either because we aren't healthy here and we aren't worth wasting your reputation on.

    It's really friggin simple.  

    Parent

    (1) Who are these leftie bloggers on FB? (none / 0) (#140)
    by oculus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 07:30:43 AM EST
    [Is providing a link do-able?]

    (2) Where would you suggest an aurthor of "left blogs" post his/her writing?

    (3). Where should a reader who seeks intelligent, thoughtful, responsive-to-the posts comments direct his/her attention?  [I do not think DK fills that bill. It is very time-consuming to filter to the on-point comments there.

    [Note:  the author stated he spent maybe 15 minutes writing the Hobby Lobby post.  I do not think Peter's comments merited the author's vitriol and/or that Peter's comment in general are at all typical for this site, which would be vastly more interesting as to comments if it had more frequesnt comments of the caliber of his. I say this as a commenter he challenged to set forth my credentials to comment on criminal law/procedure issues; I declined.  I have no strong opinion on the merits of the Hobby Lobby post.]

    Parent

    Why would I do that? (3.67 / 6) (#144)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 09:03:22 AM EST
    I have written some items.  Put my arse on the line, and developed some friendships with others who take the same calculated risks at times.  I'm not placing those earned friendships at risk for the sake of appeasing the curiosity of a group of commenters who really belong at No Quarter.

    It is one thing to be appropriately critical, it is quite another to be consumed by hatred for our current Democratic President.  And I have to say, Obamacare isn't perfect but nothing ever is.  Once upon a time I had Hillarycare, and year after year changes were made to it to the point that it looks nothing like what Hillary Clinton designed for the military.  And it will always be that way.  If anyone here ever thought that a perfect legislation could be written and passed that would never have to be altered or fought for, what a bunch of fools.

    Obamacare is headed for successes and this site is so crazed most commenters here can't even stand the idea of that.  And when a couple of rebels decide to take the crazy on here and thump everyone with 1 ratings like others have so easily done here to things they disagree with......oh goodness the sniveling.

    Most commenters here show up everyday to make and take the same stand over and over and over again, President Obama sucks therefore they do not consider themselves invested in any of this.  They live daily to gather more proof of why that is their truth.  Fine, sour grapes forever, take your ball and go home.

    It is a blazing arrogance to think that BTD should spend any time AT ALL feeding such a box of troll dolls.  And just because one post took him 15 minutes to write that is a troll license?

    Some people here took BTDs policy of lively debate as an invitation to turn this place into a No Quarter clone.  And that is someone who unfriended me on facebook....Susan Hu.  That's probably a good thing.

    Parent

    Susan Hu (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by MKS on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:44:18 PM EST
    went off the deep end with the Obama hate.  All this non-sense of the Whitey tape....

    Parent
    It was sad (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:56:19 PM EST
    I liked her a lot.  Everyone is capable of the deep end.  The trick is, can you make it back?  Can you live in the now, take honest inventories, and argue for better tomorrows or get really good at it and get everyone working for the better tomorrow, or will we remain stuck and flogging?

    Parent
    Hey Mo Blue (2.29 / 7) (#145)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 09:32:43 AM EST
    Put your ass on the line.  You write some stuff instead of spending all day every day hoping to criticize the work of others always through the lens of "Obama Sucks".

    Parent
    All these solutions you TALK about (4.00 / 6) (#146)
    by MO Blue on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:00:41 AM EST
    that you say you propose just add up to nothing more than calling people names. You post no solutions what so ever on this blog. You can't even debate an issue in a civilized manner using facts to support your position. What you post here are nothing but rants calling people haters and psychos. Solutions - you don't do solutions. Links - you don't do links. Facts you don't do facts all you do is spew insults and the hatred that you are always projecting on everyone else.

    But I guess if you call people names it is O.K. because that is all you are capable of doing.

    Have at it. I'm done dealing with you. You have the rest of the day to continue your rant and your insults.

    Parent

    And this is what really gets me (3.13 / 8) (#148)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:58:27 AM EST
    You guys all go dig up the links you post, and to do that proficiently...that means you are purposefully ignoring some other links you come across.  You are sifting only for the best crap to be found, and then you all show up here with it and congratulate each other.  It's comical and it's sad, but rock on, it's a free country and all.

    Parent
    The TL Kaffee Klatch (1.00 / 3) (#169)
    by squeaky on Mon Dec 09, 2013 at 10:57:29 AM EST
    Knee jerk Obama hate club..  it is tiresome and not going to change.

    You are right on the money MT...

    Parent

    Not true (2.80 / 5) (#147)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:42:26 AM EST
    I could bring loads of facts, tons of links, but I will not spend my life and time arguing with professional trolls. What does that accomplish other than wasting my life in stupid arguments that matter naught? My God, you must think my time and my life is worth nothing.  Have better things to do with my time and Obamacare success marches on. And when it comes time to lobby for and fight for improvements, I'll be there too and not stuck in 2008 booing and hissing through the rest of my political awareness life.

    Parent
    So, let me see if I have this right: (3.83 / 6) (#154)
    by Anne on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 03:32:23 PM EST
    You don 't have time to "waste " on "professional trolls " - and even though you "could" bring facts and links and information - tons of it, according to you - your preference is just to show up here to name-call.

    That's why you're getting the troll ratings: you contribute nothing to the conversation.

    Nothing.

    Parent

    Go ahead and double down Anne (3.67 / 3) (#155)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 05:10:01 PM EST
    Nobody cares at this point.  You may as well.

    Parent
    Tracy, I have nothing but sympathy (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by Zorba on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 05:44:41 PM EST
    for the struggles you have gone through with getting your son the proper health care, and I am glad that he has gotten, and is getting it, thanks in large part to your unflagging efforts.
    And I understand that you are very grateful for the positive aspects of the ACA, which I will also acknowledge.
    But you should also understand that there are also hurting people who have still not been able to access the level of care that you have been able to.
    The ACA is far from perfect.  I did not expect that it would be perfect.  Is it better than what we had before?  Yes, it is.  Does it have a long, long way to go?  Yes, it does.
    When Obama won the Presidency, even though I had reservations about him (I am from the St. Louis and Illinois area, and have been following Chicago politics for many, many years, and I do not entirely trust any Chicago politicians), I cried, especially when I saw Jesse Jackson shed tears at that moment.  It was a profoundly moving time, and I had high hopes that this country was finally moving forward.
    Obama is not the Golden Man.  No politician is, or ever has been.  They are are all human.
    So I must say that you are incorrect when you say that "Nobody cares."  Many, many people do.
    Be well, my sister.
    Namaste.

    Parent
    Lady Z (3.25 / 4) (#161)
    by sj on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 09:25:25 PM EST
    When she is in this mode, as soon as you express compassion and understanding to MT you will soon be on the receiving end of one of her "Obama Sux" rants. And I know that "Obama Sux" because MT says so all the time, and she should know.

    As for that break, the blog that MO Blue recommended has some good stuff and they need to build their commenting community. The site is a little slow on my XP computer but it should be fine on the others.

    Parent

    Lordy Lordy Lordy (3.00 / 4) (#162)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 09:37:25 PM EST
    What a pack of mean girls many of you have become.  And if you guys only seem to like me a little tiny bit, care a smidge, then my past legitimate beefs with attacking others for disagreeing with you guys will magically disappear.  I am included thank God.  I have once again been magically made whole by the distribution of mean girl crumbs :)

    Parent
    But it happened, didn't it MT? (3.00 / 4) (#163)
    by sj on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 09:56:42 PM EST
    You followed up with one of your accusatory rants, not two comments later. You do it anytime someone tries to express understanding. It never takes long. I've been on the receiving end often enough to sit up and take notice of the pattern.

    And while I still think your Josh is a wonder, I'm leaving this place to the trolls who can only dish out viciousness and venom and who valiantly fight strawmen of their own creation. You've always had cojones, it used to be in a good way. But you have got some huge ones accusing others of being "mean girls". You have become the bitterest, meanest girl of them all. Or at least right up in the top three.

    Parent

    The "understanding" that (4.20 / 5) (#164)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:09:14 PM EST
    Is expressed is condescending given the gravity and reality that ACA addresses.

    Parent
    Would that you ever expressed any (3.17 / 6) (#165)
    by Anne on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:37:24 PM EST
    interest or compassion or understanding of anyone else's situations, though.

    Probably something else you don't want to waste any time on, right?

    But rejecting those who reach out to you because you've decided they're condescending just makes you more of a victim.  Gotta wonder sometimes why you need to work that so hard; my guess is some other aspect of your life is falling apart and this is as good a place as any to release some anger and tension by ripping people who, over the years, have reached out to you over and over and over.

    So utterly dishonest.  

    Parent

    ACA is going to kill who again? (3.00 / 4) (#166)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 11:32:20 PM EST
    I mean before Obamacare they were trying to kill Josh and other suffering children that cut into bonuses for profit.  And sending the poor and uninsured to emergency rooms has been killing plenty of them too.  And ACA fully implemented is going to kill who again Anne?

    Feeling inconvenienced by ACA does not equal dying without it for me Anne.  This is just one example of the bubble the down rating mean girl crew lives in here at Talkleft.

    Parent

    Deliberately poking a mother who almost lost her child to murder by spreadsheet in all of her very real, not strawman, wounds.  It's almost as if Jeralyn is monitoring and you all are setting me up hoping for my removal.

    Parent
    Zorba, it is not just ACA (3.00 / 2) (#157)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 06:02:25 PM EST
    This place has been vitriolic NoBama for a long time, on occasion someone could post something Obama supportive but a point came where that wouldn't even be tolerated.

    There is a front page story at DK outlining that almost every single story of being ACA "hurt" in the media has been debunked.  Most of the hurt and harm that is making it to the columns of this blog are speculating hurt....not hurt yet, just planning on being hurt.  The truth though is that where ACA hurts it then becomes a voting issue to fix at the very least.  There is going to be a panel to appeal problems to.  Where does anyone have that at this point that is effective?

    I have no stomach for the crap that goes on here these days, and it is shameless.  Reading the comments here is equal to reading Red State.  You guys very often have the exact same anti-Obama links up and the same anti-Obama arguments...except you guys make them better.  That's the only difference that can be seen anymore.

    Parent

    And I am very sorry that (4.00 / 3) (#158)
    by Zorba on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 06:36:39 PM EST
    you and others on this blog cannot seem to understand or condone any criticisms of Obama whatsoever.  To me, it has become very much like DailyKos  after it began to flame anyone who did not adhere to the Divinely Inspired Words of Wisdom from the current Democratic Party.
    This is not what I had come to expect from Talk Left.  
    I think that I need to take a break here.
    Be well, my sister.

    Parent
    And that's just bull$hit Zorba (3.40 / 5) (#159)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 06:44:25 PM EST
    Anyone questioning you "measured and honest" critics is attacked.  See you can question (and in fact consider yourselves virtuous for doing so), but you can't be questioned.  Even more bull$hit is that concern and criticism of Obama has gone on for a long time here by commenters, and whenever that concern and criticism has proven to have been unfounded, no retraction is necessary.  Just move onto your "concern" about Obama and the next and then the next.  Obama is a scapegoat here now, nothing more.

    Parent
    See attacked! (3.60 / 5) (#160)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 06:46:18 PM EST
    And it's funny how you guys gang up and downrate but when it happens to you you whine and whine.

    Parent
    You talkin' to me? (none / 0) (#151)
    by oculus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:44:50 PM EST
    No, talking to Mo Blue (3.67 / 3) (#153)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:31:19 PM EST
    Who gave a nice big phat uno.  Something that happens around here all the time when people simply disagree.  I invite Mo Blue to attempt what BTD does, put the shoes on, walk a mile or so.  Get back to me.

    Parent
    Our focus (none / 0) (#149)
    by Politalkix on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 11:11:25 AM EST
    should be geared towards promoting a blogging atmosphere through our comments whereby BTD feels motivated to post his thoughtful and educative writings.

    If BTD does not post here, it is our loss!

    Parent

    I haven't read the comments here (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 04:20:39 PM EST
    in weeks. Or longer. I will try to go through this weekend and clean them.

    I hope BTD reconsiders. The site will go back to being insult free as soon as I return to blogging regularly.

    Parent

    Is Greenwald posting again? (none / 0) (#121)
    by sj on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 01:58:05 PM EST
    When he was with the Guardian the commenting was extensive. The only blogger that I can think of (off the top of my head) who doesn't permit commenting is Digby.

    Parent
    I Don't Get How... (none / 0) (#126)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 04:27:26 PM EST
    ...one complains about toxicity and sniping in a same thread they used FU towards one of the site legal statesmen.  As far as I can tell, you get the toxic award in this thread, which should negate complaining about toxicity, in this thread.

    That being said, I seriously miss your toxicity, but more importantly I miss your general dismissive and snotty attitude when anyone asks for clarification and/or disagrees with you.  You will not have it.

    And I am not kidding, I really do miss it, it happens everyday amongst us lower life forms, but there is something about the author laying down the hammer that make me laugh.  When you do, it's much sharper and deeper, and often infinitely funnier.

    I mean seriously, who around her has the balls to slap Peter down when they feel like it, NO.BOD.E   And if there is one thing we have been missing around here, its originality and the balls to call it like they see it.  And the power to do it.

    Parent

    I agree wholeheartedly. (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by vml68 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 11:07:47 AM EST
    he is unfailingly one of the most thoughtful, reasoned, rational commenters here, and his presence almost always elevates the discussion

    Was surprised by BTD's reaction.

    Parent

    Thank you very much for that, (5.00 / 4) (#111)
    by Peter G on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 11:58:26 AM EST
    Anne.

    Parent
    I did find Edgar's comment (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 04:17:51 PM EST
    insulting and absurd. I haven't blogged about anything for almost two months (until yesterday) and to suggest that I'm ignoring any topic for political reasons is just ludicrous. As it is to suggest that BTD would.

    I deleted Edger's comments.

    I have not read the rest of the thread or figured out what the sniping has been about. I'll try to do that tonight.

    Parent

    I was about to say some things here (none / 0) (#131)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 05:05:05 PM EST
    that are better left unsaid, on reflection.

    Instead I'll note that Anne saw and noted the reality of my earlier comment that you deleted, while you and BTD chose to interpret it in a way that enabled you both to use that interpretation as a way of avoiding altogether the issue I raised here. That's sad.

    There are many good people here. I'll miss them, and wish them and you well.

    There was a reason I left the country. When it collapses I'd rather it not be around my ears, although I should add that many people in Canada view Canada as "the dingy tied to the Titanic", so there probably is no avoiding that collapse. At least as long as the majority of people avoid facing the causes.

    Best wishes. Merry Christmas. You can go ahead and delete my user account, and this comment too, if you wish.

    Parent

    Please don't go, Edger (5.00 / 4) (#132)
    by jbindc on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 05:10:13 PM EST
    Ditto that. (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by shoephone on Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 06:11:11 PM EST
    I, too, hope you'll stay (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by sj on Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 09:56:27 PM EST
    Or choose to come back later.

    Parent
    Hope you reconsider (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by MO Blue on Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 12:39:09 AM EST
    Need more voices in the wilderness until they become voices echoed throughout the land.

    Parent
    What was your assessment of Peter's comments? (none / 0) (#143)
    by oculus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 07:43:50 AM EST
    I'm a firm believer (4.00 / 3) (#94)
    by CoralGables on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 06:22:39 AM EST
    that there are times when people that live in a whiny bubble need a well worded put down. And for that I say well played sir.

    Parent
    There are all kinds of bubbles (5.00 / 4) (#96)
    by MO Blue on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 08:16:42 AM EST
    including the one containing those who chooses to condone, discount or ignore the fact that the current administration is seeking immunity for individuals accused of war crimes.

     

    Parent

    I'm suspended (none / 0) (#90)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 10:10:19 PM EST
    And frankly, sick of this crap anyway.

    I don't think I'm coming back.

    Parent

    Did I miss something (none / 0) (#105)
    by ragebot on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 11:27:09 AM EST
    Who was/is suspended and is BTD say he is not coming back.

    Parent
    Nothing formal (none / 0) (#108)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 11:53:11 AM EST
    Probably more of the same in actuality.

    The experience has left me with little desire to participate here as a poster or commenter.

    I engaged yesterday and did not enjoy it.


    Parent

    I hope you decide only (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Peter G on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 12:01:45 PM EST
    to take a time out, Armando, if you're not enjoying it.  Your comments and insights are far too valuable to me (and many others, I'm sure) -- when you're not in a cranky mood ;) -- for me, at least, to accept the idea of you quitting this site entirely.

    Parent
    I've been scanning comnments (none / 0) (#116)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 12:05:22 PM EST
    and really it is a reaction to that more than anything else.

    Probably my fault because I have not provided anything to discuss for months and months.

    I put up a quick polemic post that I prepared for Daily Kos in 15 minutes (not anything deep) at the request of a reader here and well, did not really care for the reaction to it.

    Everyone has a right to react as they wish.

    But so do I.

    Parent

    Thank you. (none / 0) (#118)
    by oculus on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 12:11:16 PM EST
    I deleted that comment (none / 0) (#123)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 04:14:12 PM EST
    Absurd allegation.

    Parent
    Did (none / 0) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 12:12:10 PM EST
    the site go down earlier today?

    It's been down since late last night for me. (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by vml68 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:14:49 PM EST
    n/t

    Parent
    Yeah - (none / 0) (#2)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 12:15:23 PM EST
    I couldn't get on until about 20 minutes ago.

    Parent
    Just in time... (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 12:46:41 PM EST
    I was getting the shakes, needed a fix.

    Parent
    I was thinking maybe it provided a (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:01:48 PM EST
    kind of time-out from what has become a place where someone is always locked, loaded and ready to blast even the most innocuous comments, and conversations are more like knock-down, drag-out brawls.

    [and yes, I'm aware that I've participated in some of those, but more and more, I'm not seeing the benefit of engaging]

    Parent

    I'm guessing... (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:37:11 PM EST
    it will take more than a few hours to cool the over-heated engines around here.  Or some of my stash.

    Parent
    You must have a silo-full, which is what (none / 0) (#18)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:53:26 PM EST
    it might take to bring the mellow back.

    Parent
    Ha!... (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:00:09 PM EST
    A silo-full, only in my sweet dreams Anne.

    In fact I've been on an austerity-measures half-ration for several weeks now...saving for Christmas amd my Christmas present for myself y la mujer especial...Baja Sur en Enero amigos! Tickets are procured, Yip-Yippity-Yeah!!!

    Parent

    Serenity now (none / 0) (#10)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:08:47 PM EST
    David Brooks returned from a 3 month hiatus from writing and addressed this very point.

    Parent
    Me (none / 0) (#16)
    by lentinel on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:50:44 PM EST
    too.

    Dependence.

    Parent

    Like John Lennon once sang... (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:54:58 PM EST
    "Whatever gets you through the night, it's allright, it's allright".

    The same goes for the work day;)

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 12:50:24 PM EST
    I never know if it's the site or my computer.

    Parent
    Site Violator (none / 0) (#3)
    by sj on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 12:16:03 PM EST
    Posting on this old post.I'm almost sorry to mention it because I missed that post first time around and I was glad to see it now.

    Judge rules (none / 0) (#4)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 12:17:25 PM EST
    Detroit is eligible for Chapter 9 bankruptcy.

    The judge will also allow pension cuts to city retirees.

    Can the (none / 0) (#15)
    by lentinel on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:49:45 PM EST
    entire US of A be far behind?

    Parent
    What court (none / 0) (#69)
    by ragebot on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 05:52:57 PM EST
    would have jurisdiction over a bankruptcy filing.  And perhaps more to the point what debts would be dischargeable and what non-dischargeable?  Does anyone think China would accept their debt as dischargeable.

    Parent
    Of course the right wing is outraged... (none / 0) (#70)
    by unitron on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 05:56:12 PM EST
    ...that they'll get to keep any fraction of their pensions.

    Parent
    Disagree (none / 0) (#98)
    by ragebot on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 08:33:35 AM EST
    The idea that conservatives don't want anyone to get a pension is just wrong.  The conservative position is that pensions should be paid from a sound financial system.  The problem in Detroit is that there is not enough money to pay the pensions and a lot of other stuff as well.

    There are multiple reasons for the shortfall.  Even in good economic times revenue was not sufficient to provide a sound financial basis for the costs associated with running Detroit.  Once bad times hit and the tax base for the city almost vanished there simply was not enough money.

    Some local and state governments by law can not run a deficit.  Florida is an example of a state that has what most folks view as a retirement system with very limited benefits.  Illinois is at the opposite end of the spectrum.  There are some folks who have speculated on what would happen if Illinois got in a situation as bad a Detroit.  Current bankruptcy law allows cities to go bankrupt, but there is no provision for a state to go bankrupt.  But states like Illinois and California have massive unfunded liabilities and realistically lack the ability to raise taxes enough to cover them.  There is a real question if the federal government has the ability to deal with it's unfunded liabilities.

    The conservative position is that it is better to have a very limited retirement system like Florida that is on sound financial footing than a system like Detroit that is subject to failure.  It has nothing to do with not wanting folks to get a pension.

    Parent

    But these are union members... (none / 0) (#128)
    by unitron on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 07:05:22 PM EST
    ...so it's okay with the right if they get screwed.

    Parent
    Do you not know (none / 0) (#136)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 12:11:14 AM EST
    the first rule:  the lowly always get screwed first to preserve the lifestyle of the rich and famous.

    Parent
    PRNewswire: San Francisco, Dec. 2, 2013 (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:03:06 PM EST
    A federal court will hear argument next April from an Iraqi woman who claims the Iraq War was illegal under international law.

    Plaintiff Sundus Shaker Saleh, an Iraqi single mother and refugee now living in Jordan, filed a complaint in March 2013 in San Francisco federal court alleging that the planning and waging of the Iraq War was a "crime of aggression" against Iraqi civilians, a legal theory used at the Nuremberg Trials to convict Nazi leaders for planning and waging wars in Europe during World War II.

    Saleh served the complaint in June 2013 against six Bush-era officials, including George W. Bush, Richard Cheney, Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Her complaint seeks damages for herself as well as for other Iraqi civilian victims of the war.

    Saleh alleges that Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz openly planned the Iraq War beginning in 1998 through a neoconservative think-tank called "The Project for the New American Century." She further alleges that once in power, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz convinced other Bush officials to invade Iraq and to use 9/11 as an excuse to scare and mislead the American public into supporting a war.

    Federal Court to Examine Legality of Iraq War Based on Lawsuit Filed by Comar Law

    Of course...

    President Obama's Department of Justice (DOJ) is representing the defendants and has filed court papers seeking to immunize them from civil proceedings, arguing that these former officials were acting within the scope of their employment in planning and waging the Iraq War. The Obama DOJ has also argued that Saleh's lawsuit is a political question and should be dismissed.
    Look forward, not back, except when it's CYA time.


    He, (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by lentinel on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:49:14 PM EST
    or his spiritual counterpart, would have argued against the necessity of the Nuremberg trials.

    Parent
    Apparently that would be a good thing (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:00:41 PM EST
    It would be horrible if a republican did it of course, but if obama does it that would make it a good thing, apparently.

    Apparently.

    Parent

    If a (5.00 / 4) (#53)
    by lentinel on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 04:28:35 PM EST
    republican were to also ignore the crimes of the Bush administration, no one would notice.

    The democrats shut up during the entire Bush tenure.
    They let him and his honchos run rampant.
    They let him torture.
    They said nothing.

    Obama, as is obvious to everyone, is a republican.
    He belongs to the democratic party, which is the same thing.

    Letting the horrors of the Bush administrations go unpunished - as if nothing happened - no mass murder - no torture - no black holes - no Gitmo - keeps us in the same mindset. It is still with us.

    There is no possible way we can "move on" - as with the Nazis - if we do not acknowledge the crimes committed by our government - and the acquiescence of the people of this country to those crimes - and the willingness to "not know"...

    We got away with Vietnam. A major stain on our country and on the world. No one is held to account. Johnson is given the "he made the trains run on time" cop out. All the people he killed. All the American lives sacrificed. All the lies.

    And he was never held to account.

    So Bush repeated his scenario.
    And Obama says nothing, sees nothing, hears nothing and knows nothing.

    Parent

    The Democrats did not shut (none / 0) (#91)
    by MKS on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 11:09:20 PM EST
    up during the Bush Administration.

    And, there has been plenty of discussion of drone strikes under Obama.

    War crimes trial for Bush II?  A complete and foolish fantasy.

    Parent

    Why is the DOJ... (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:09:25 PM EST
    ...representing them, at the very least they should make that whole crew dig up the crack team of lawyers they used to for advise to get in that mess, like Yoo, Myers, and Gonzalez.  And let Roberts sit in on the mess to add his two cents.

    Parent
    Well if they did that (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:14:18 PM EST
    then obama and his doj would have to prosecute them.

    And that would be horrible. Apparently.

    Parent

    There was also (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:08:59 PM EST
    another well known song by The Band.

    Save your neck or save your brother
    Looks like it's one or the other
    Oh, you don't know the shape I'm in


    Parent
    Well I guess (none / 0) (#127)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 06:32:30 PM EST
    we shouldn't really talk about it.

    Wouldn't want to jeopardize bush and cheney's chances, after all...

    Parent

    Wonder why Armando didn't cross-post (none / 0) (#12)
    by magster on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:25:57 PM EST
    here his Kos post about how Hobby Lobby, warrior of the sanctity of accidental pregnancies, gleans almost all of its profits from China, the country of mandatory birth control and forced abortions.

    The hypocrisy highlighted in that post was nauseating. Can't believe their lawsuit has made it this far with that glaring hole in Hobby Lobby's character.

    The owners of Hobby Lobby (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Peter G on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:08:45 PM EST
    say it would violate the corporation's religion to pay for health insurance for its employees, if the insurance coverage doesn't exclude birth control.  They also say it does not violate the corporation's religion to contract with outside suppliers, which are not Chinese government agencies, located in a country that promotes birth control aggressively. (BTD's piece is here.) The whole idea of a for-profit corporation, as such, having religious faith and practicing a religion is rather hard to fathom.  (Whether the Constitution or the Religious Freedom Restoration Act contemplates for-profit corporations having and exercising a religion will be decided by the Supreme Court this spring.) If you grant for a moment that a business can have a religion, why couldn't it have a religion that held both of those beliefs?  I doesn't make any less sense than most of what people say and do in the name of, or notwithstanding, their religious beliefs.

    Parent
    Thanks for the link, Peter. (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:18:10 PM EST
    It seems like it is contrary to the owners' religious beliefs to spend money on something they are opposed to, but not a problem to make money off the labor of those who may be forced to use birth control and/or have abortions.

    Parent
    Hard to fathom... (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:21:23 PM EST
    is an understatement Peter, it's downright unfathomable.

    Boy did the Supreme Court open up a can worms with that "corporations are people" sh*t or what?  What's next...corporation marriage equality for more tax breaks?

    Parent

    Independent contractors in China? (none / 0) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:06:13 PM EST
    That's rich.

    Parent
    Please explain how doing business (none / 0) (#48)
    by Peter G on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:38:09 PM EST
    with a manufacturing firm in China is the same as supporting any and all policies of the Chinese government. Apple -- and virtually all other US corporations -- supports suppression of the Tibetan national identity?  Forced abortion?  The maintenance of a pervasive and violent secret police force?  The denial of even rudimentary due process in criminal trials?  A one-party political system?  I usually find your arguments provocative and compelling, BTD.  But frankly this one doesn't grab me at all.  I'd love to catch the Hobby Lobbyists out with evidence to prove their insincerity, but I don't think this proves a thing.

    Parent
    Isn't That the Entire Basis... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 04:20:44 PM EST
    ...of sanctions, to stop governments and private enterprise from engaging, and supporting, 'rogue' nations.  The thought being anyone that does business with them in in a sense supporting their policies, at least economically.

    Granted, Company XYZ doesn't have much to do with setting Chinese policy, but if there religious convictions are so deep, shouldn't they avoid any company in a country that has policies that are in direct conflict with their beliefs.  After all, every state they do business with, good or bad, is generating revenue from Hobby Lobby.

    That's arguably as direct connection as the relationship between Hobby Lobby, their insurance carrier, and the treatment their employees receive.  The only difference is one would cost the company so dearly they could not last, and the other is actually profitable.  No secret as to why they are only on-board with jesus on one side of the coin.

    Parent

    Peter.

    Of course they aren't responsible for China's policies.

    Nor are they responsible for ACA's policies.

    I'm disappointed that I need to explain this to you.

    As for China's "independent contractors," China's capitalism is run by the Chinese government, in many case, by the Chinese Army.

    Giving "Christian" money to them, given the fungibility argument Hobby Lobby has embraced vis a vis ACA, means they are violating their "Christian values" by doing business with China.

    I hope it is now clear to you.


    Parent

    The supercilious tone (5.00 / 4) (#51)
    by Peter G on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 04:09:19 PM EST
    was unnecessary, it seems to me.  Of course, I could be wrong about that.

    Parent
    Check the mirror (none / 0) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 04:34:33 PM EST
    I engage in the manner in which I am engaged.

    Parent
    I just don't detect any such tone, (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by Peter G on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 04:59:11 PM EST
    and intended none, in my comment #22. But you did, so for that I'm sorry.

    Parent
    Armando, I don't detect (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Zorba on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 07:12:30 PM EST
    any "supercilious tone" in Peter G's comment.  Of course, YMMV.
    Namaste.

    Parent
    BTD hopefully you will stick around (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by fishcamp on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 02:41:35 PM EST
    to post your football predictions.  Many I fear might get lost in the sports pages if you stop.  I'd hate to go back to my Aspen bookie since he owes me money which can often be worse than the other way around.

    Parent
    Isn't that Hobby Lobby's (none / 0) (#92)
    by MKS on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 11:12:19 PM EST
    own standard?  

    If they are going to stick their nose in their employees' own business because they are morally offended, then why does not that same standard apply to its suppliers?

    Parent

    Do you have a link to his post? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 01:52:01 PM EST
    I'm almost afraid to read it, because I already have a headache, and I'm sure the Hobby Lobby hypocrisy is only going to make it worse.

    Parent
    fyi (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:56:14 PM EST
    I just never got around to it.

    If people want, I could do it today.

    I wrote in like 15 minutes.

    Parent

    Please cross post (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by MO Blue on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:59:24 PM EST
    thanks

    Parent
    Great post! (none / 0) (#58)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 04:50:13 PM EST
    It's too bad that the people who need to read it, won't.

    Parent
    For kdog (none / 0) (#32)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 02:43:45 PM EST
    Classic! (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:15:00 PM EST
    Sh*t jb it would be nice to get a kiss instead of the usual stop & frisk jump right to 2nd and 3rd base.  Maybe dinner and a movie even.

    Parent
    Only if (none / 0) (#42)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:21:51 PM EST
    they look like this.

    :)

    Parent

    I woulda never guessed... (none / 0) (#45)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:25:05 PM EST
    you fancying roid-heads;)

    Parent
    Not usually (none / 0) (#46)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 03, 2013 at 03:31:17 PM EST
    But there are plenty of other pictures on that link that have really pretty boys to look at.

    And some hot women for the guys too!

    Parent

    Excerpt from Wiki re DK: (none / 0) (#119)
    by oculus on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 12:37:23 PM EST
    On March 17, 2008, Moulitsas stated that Senator Hillary Clinton did not stand for the principles behind Daily Kos and said Clinton "doesn't deserve fairness on this site." He equated the Democratic primary to a "civil war." His statement was precipitated by a 'strike' conducted by several prominent pro-Clinton bloggers, even though none of these posters were paid or in any way officially linked to the site. Moulitsas noted that if bloggers were dissatisfied, there were plenty of other websites at which to blog.[69][70]


    Which is why (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 04, 2013 at 01:17:47 PM EST
    He equated the Democratic primary to a "civil war."

    It amazes me that there are Very Important People who consider him and his site as Very Important.

    Parent