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Monday Open Thread

I'll be busy at work the rest of the day. Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Paul Krugman seeks to call ... (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 03:26:52 PM EST
    ... the eastern seaboard's attention to the seismic shift that's ocurred in California politics over the course of almost two decades, resulting in the near-complete marginalization of that state's radical Republicans, and he further argues that the trend is now playing out nationally. But is anybody back there in the Beltway really listening?

    "But is anybody ... (none / 0) (#7)
    by unitron on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 04:33:17 PM EST
    ...back there in the Beltway really listening?"

    Gee, I hope not.

    Much better to sneak up on them.


    Parent

    But (none / 0) (#10)
    by lentinel on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 05:59:48 PM EST
     
    is anybody back there in the Beltway really listening?

    I don't think so.

    Parent

    Why would we wish for CA (none / 0) (#71)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 02:11:22 PM EST
    Government?

    Is a complete mess.

    Parent

    Wrong......again......sigh (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by NYShooter on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 02:59:43 PM EST
    California, or "the mess," as you call it, was, overwhelmingly,  due to the Republican's jamming their "no taxes" religion down the citizen's throats. Now, that Californians see what devastation that fairy tale has wraith, they wised up, and started bringing the Democrats back in charge.

    As always, the R's screw it up, the D's have to clean it up.
    --------------------------------------------

     "Again, however, reports of the state's demise proved premature. Unemployment in California remains high, but it's coming down -- and there's a projected budget surplus, in part because the implosion of the state's Republican Party finally gave Democrats a big enough political advantage to push through some desperately needed tax increases. Far from presiding over a Greek-style crisis, Gov. Jerry Brown is proclaiming a comeback."
    -----------------------------------------------

    Link

    Parent

    Not enough taxes in the world (none / 0) (#78)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 03:41:16 PM EST
    To pay off the promises of CA politicians.

    You do realize most of the country looks at California as an example of liberalism run amuck?

    Bankruptcy

    Parent

    "Most of the country"? (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:20:03 PM EST
    By "most of the country", do you mean those people in the low-tax, conservative states that live off the federal taxes of those of us living in the "donor" states?

    Strange that those "47%"ers would be complaining ...

    BTW - Up until the recession, California was a huge "donor" state for at least the past two decades.

    Parent

    Look, Slado, the voters THEMSELVES ... (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 08:41:05 PM EST
    ... authorized the increase in state income and sales taxes when they passed Proposition 30 by a very decisive margin last November. That's called majority rule. In a real democracy, the selfish intansigence of an ignorant 34% minority should not be able to pereptually trump the needs and desires of 60% of residents.

    Yet that's precisely how Republicans managed to turn state finances into a royal mess, because prior to just a few short years ago, state budgets and tax increases required either a two-thirds majority affirmation of the members of both the Assembly and the Senate, or a two-thirds majority vote of the electorate if accomplished through the initiative process.

    Thus for years, all it took was 14 GOP state senators in the 40-member California Senate -- one more than one-third of its members -- to bring the entire state budgetary process into a standstill.

    That's why this last 2012 statewide election was decisive, because the Republicans' numbers were whittled down to only 11 in the Senate, and only 25 in the 80-member State Assembly, and Democrats hold all eight of the statewide elective offices, from governor down to state superintendent of education. Having been thus maginalized, the GOP no longer enjoys the capacity to block the passage of state budgets and tax increases with a one-third-plus-one minority voting bloc.

    Contrast that to January 1995, when Republicans enjoyed a 23-17 advantage in the Senate and a 44-36 edge in the Assembly, Pete Wilson was re-inaugurated as governor, and Republicans held seven of the eight statewide offices. That was on the heels of the '94 election where the hatemongering Prop. 187 was on the ballot.

    And how did the Republican majority follow that success at the ballot box in the 1995 legislative year? Why, they first passed a workers comp "reform" measure that served to nearly triple premiums on employers in an 18-month period, and then an energy deregulation bill which soon caused no end of grief for Grandma Millie.

    And that in a nutshell, Slado, is what's wrong with the Republicans in California. They've long desired to rule, but then disdain to actually govern responsibly when given the opportunity to do so -- and further, they treat the state's electorate like a bunch of chumps.

    And so eventually, in accordance with Abraham Lincoln's observation about not being able to fool all the people all the time, it was inevitable that Golden State voters would wise up to their schtick and reduce the GOP's numbers accordingly, once the power to redistrict and gerrymander was taken away from state legislators by voters via the initiative process, and given to an independent citizens commission.

    (Thank you, Arnold Schwarzenegger. Seriously. The repeal and transfer of the legislature's redistricting authority was his baby, and as governor, he managed to get it on the ballot and convince voters to approve the measure. 20 years from now, that may prove his one substantive political legacy -- and in my opinion, it's proved a game changer in California.)

    Aloha.

    Parent

    well written (none / 0) (#135)
    by P3P3P3P3 on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 01:39:20 AM EST
    I wish California well on their transformation, not from Republican to Democratic, but from Classical European to Majority Minority, as is Hawaii, New Mexico and Texas

    as TalkLeft (is about) Politics of Crime, I tend to flip it to Criminal Politics in posts, virtue in Government is essential for legitimacy as in the quote of John Adams, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the Government of any other"

    neither political party has a "corner on the market", as I mentioned, Illinois was the only State to have both Republican and Democratic ex-Governors in Jail at the same time

    not sure if the timing is right for an upbeat article about California, as another city; Stockton approaches bankruptcy

    I wouldn't consider "evil Republicans" as the cause of the corruption, financial demise and probable bankruptcy of the city of Detroit

    California took a step forward in establishing Drug Courts/Rehab, it still has to deal with the problem of Mexican Gangs

    Parent

    You misread my intent (none / 0) (#154)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 07:31:02 PM EST
    I'm only pointing out the oddity of saying things in CA are good while the state builds trains to nowhere and is headed toward fiscal calamity.

    Are the Republicans losing politically?  Of course.

    Keep that in mind as more cities declare bankruptcy and the state starts slashing the budget to pay off all the promises its made.

    Parent

    Really? That's how Alabama got (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 12:08:12 PM EST
    This busted....all those liberal philosophies that have been applied :)

    Parent
    Oy (none / 0) (#82)
    by sj on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 03:54:31 PM EST
    That's the conclusion of you and your "ilk"?

    Parent
    My ilk marvels (none / 0) (#86)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 03:58:19 PM EST
    As yours spends other people's money to no affect.

    Nothing to see here, move along.  Well just pass another tax increase.

    Parent

    Oh my dear (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by sj on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:07:40 PM EST
    I can spend your money with plenty of affect.  Not that your personal contribution could do much.  Neither would mine and I also pay a LOT in taxes.  But combined with lots of others?  Oh yes, I can spend your money with plenty of affect.

    Alas, it's not my personal choice where it goes.  I would rather, however, that some of my "personal" tax dollars be "wasted" in order to help a few, than withhold help from all because someone "undeserving" might also get some benefit.

    But I thought you were the one who was all about the Church and "its true purpose which is to help our fellow man and teach forgiveness, understanding and hope."  Or do you think it's up to the "Church" and not its members?

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#95)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:10:36 PM EST
    So your ok that Stockton uses tax payer money to garuntee health care for life after one month on the job?

    I'm not.

    Does that make me mean?  Did you even read the link?  

    That is the politics of CA.   Take care of the few in the name of the many.

    Quite fair indeed.

    Parent

    Care to explain ... (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:34:27 PM EST
    .... how the financial mismanagement in one city (assuming it's true) is representative of an entire state?

    What state do you live in?  Give me a few minutes and we'll see how "most of the country" views your state, shall we?

    Parent

    Maybe you need to review (5.00 / 4) (#114)
    by Zorba on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 05:24:57 PM EST
    the Roman Catholic Corporal Works of Mercy, Slado.

    Not to mention the New Testament.  Look up Matthew 25:31-46, and decide if you think you will be counted among the sheep or the goats.

    "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for Me."

    Parent

    You have very small (none / 0) (#98)
    by sj on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:24:56 PM EST
    definitions.  By your comments here today it appears that you think small with low aspirations.  

    So I'll object to your comment in segments.

    So your [sic] ok that Stockton uses tax payer money to garuntee [sic] health care for life after one month on the job?
    I think that tax payer money should "garuntee" health care for life to all from birth.  In fact, pre-natally.  I do concede, however, that one city cannot accomplish that.

    Then there is this.  You take a small sample and than paint with a broad brush.

    That is the politics of CA.   Take care of the few in the name of the many.
    That is the logical fallacy (bad logic on your part) knows as the Hasty Generalization.

    And I really hate dealing with poor logic, so I'm done.

    Parent

    You are done (none / 0) (#99)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:26:18 PM EST
    Faulty logic to you means you're wrong to me.

    Fair enough.

    Parent

    Addressing faulty logic (none / 0) (#100)
    by sj on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:28:30 PM EST
    means going down irrelevant paths.  I try very hard not to do that.  Sometimes I do anyway, but this time I caught myself.  Eventually.

    Parent
    It's not the logic you find faulty (none / 0) (#104)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:37:59 PM EST
    but my core beliefs.

    That's what makes it fun.   You can use good logic and still be wrong.

    Look, you're doing it!

    My general point is that bloated government leads to abuse.   See Stockton California.

    My general point is that man is flawed and in my opinion he is more flawed when he has no skin in the game as many politicians don't when they're spending other people's money.

    It is my opinion that a flawed man with good intentions will often do more harm then good when he uses other peoples money to create policies that make things worse.

    We need government because a totally free system is chaos.   Government in some shape or form has been with us since the beginning of time.  Not everyone is capable of going it alone.

    We're arguing about how much we need and I'd say evidence says we have plenty if not too much.

    You disagree.   Let the fun begin.

    Parent

    To quote Horton (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by sj on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 05:04:11 PM EST
    "I meant what I said, and I said what I meant."

    It's bad logic that I object to.  Oh, don't get me wrong.  I disagree with many of your core beliefs as well.  But if you would defend them with good logic, I could ponder them seriously, and, as has happened before, maybe even reconsider or modify some of my own core beliefs.  But you are defending them with bad logic.

    And you keep talking about "other people's" money as if I were tax exempt.  While I may grumble a little on April 15th every year, I believe in taxes and I don't mind paying my own quite substantial tax liability.  Taxes are the cost of living in a civilized society.  I happen to like roads, and an educated populace and healthy citizens and caring for those that aren't healthy, and infrastructure that can support what it's supposed to support, and.. and.. and...

    I think those things are important.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#108)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:54:25 PM EST
    So your ok that Stockton uses tax payer money to garuntee health care for life after one month on the job?

    When I hear conservatives make incredible charges, they usually earn the adjective.  You make it sound like this is a big part of Stockton's financial issues.  How many employees were covered for life?  What type of benefits?  Under what circumstances (i.e. cops receiving disability for on-the-job injuries)?  Were these employees who had more years of service but were rehired or hired from another government body?  Link to a source other than some winger blog?

    Parent

    What further proof do you (none / 0) (#164)
    by Slado on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 07:23:27 AM EST
    Need other then they're being forced to declare bankruptcy?


    Parent
    Facts, figures, data ... (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by Yman on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 12:35:12 PM EST
    .... anything that would show that the reason Stockton is declaring bankruptcy is due to them offering lifetime health benefits to (how many?) employees after only a month of service.  How many employees?  What level of benefits?  What percentage of their budget did they spend on these employees?

    Alas, you provide nothing but conjecture.

    Parent

    My ilk marvels at those (5.00 / 4) (#113)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 05:22:58 PM EST
    who support taking money away from health care, education, emergency heating assistance, Social Security and feeding babies and small children and using it to support wars of choice, corporate welfare and tax giveaways to the very wealthy.

    In the past year the deficit hawks took money away from WIC and gave it to Goldman Sachs (just one example).

     

    Parent

    MO blue: (none / 0) (#151)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 03:55:37 PM EST
    Comment please:

    NYT's Jackie Calmes re SS and Medicare

    Ps. Googling reveals the author is married to Peter Orzsag.

    Parent

    These figures completely ignore (5.00 / 3) (#153)
    by MO Blue on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 05:02:28 PM EST
    two important aspects 1.) Medicare is an insurance program and like any other insurance program some people get less than they paid for participation and some people get more and 2.)the government borrowed the funds paid into Medicare since the inception of the program. In the case quoted in the article, the funds were paid by individual for approximately 45 years. Compound interest for 45 years would make the participants investment worth more than $61,000.  

    For example, Mr. Steuerle's October update showed that a single male who earned the average wage ($44,600 in 2012 dollars) and turned 65 in 2010 had paid about $61,000 in Medicare taxes and could expect $180,000 in benefits.

    If the single male used as an example died 1 week before he turned 65 in 2010, he would have paid about $61,000, not including 45 years of compound interest, and would have received 0 in benefits.

    Social Security is a different story these days. That same single male, Mr. Steuerle calculated, paid about $300,000 in payroll taxes and could expect $277,000 in retirement benefits. (Many analysts note, however, that Americans also get survivor and disability insurance for their Social Security taxes, should they become disabled or die prematurely.

    What exactly does this individual and her so called experts not understand about how insurance works. If you pay for car insurance, you may pay premiums and drive for 45 years and never get one penny back. OTOH you may make one 6 month payment and receive the current value of your car if you total it 3 days after you paid the premium. If I had car that had a value of $50,000 and I paid one premium of $500 or $600, if I totaled that car I get the value of the car not what I paid into the system. I get that amount because I paid for it by purchasing the INSURANCE.  

    Premiums paid are borrowed and invested by the insurance company (this case the government) so that the collected premiums have a current value far in excess of the amount that each individual paid into the pool.  

    Then we get to the fact that we heavily subsidize the generous health care and pensions of all of the current and past presidents and Congresscritters and it is getting worse. They, not the average working poor, are experiencing the longer life expectancy that they love to quote, and we the taxpayers are on the hook for their more than generous benefits.  Yet to date I have not once heard anyone including Alan Simpson of the "a milk cow with 310 million t!ts" fame once suggest that we eliminate or reduce the benefits for these "do nothing robber barons" so that they have "skin in the game."

    Parent

    There really is no misconception (5.00 / 3) (#163)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 12:46:11 AM EST
    by older Americans when they claim that they paid for the benefits. They paid the insurance premiums for these benefits for decades. In the one example, the government had use of the individual's money (Medicare) for yr 1 total premium x 45 yrs, yr 1 total premium + yr 2 total premium x 44 yrs., yr 1 total premium + yr 2 total premium + yr 3 total premium x 43 yrs. etc.

    In the same example, if the individual started working at 16 (many people did) the government had use of the individual's money (Social Security) for 49 years.

    I would like for the people in the article to tell me how after paying INSURANCE premiums for 45 - 50+ years seniors are all of a sudden deemed welfare recipients when we expect to collect the benefits of those insurance premiums.

    Parent

    Some more thoughts on the article (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:19:06 AM EST
    This story follows a common practice among the Washington elite. They continually highlight and exaggerate costs associated with an aging population. Of course as a practical matter there is little that we can do about these costs, although we can redistribute the burden. The implicit and explicit intent behind much of this discussion is that the elderly and their children should bear more of these costs, as opposed to the government. link

    The above quote was part of an article on the erroneous reporting of the future cost of dementia but it applies equally as well to the serious errors of omission that were contained in your linked article and the real intent behind the article.

    Why should the elderly and their children bear more of these costs?

    Obama proposes cutting corporate tax rate to 28% from 35% The corporate tax 'shell game'  

    On January 2, 2013, the President signed the American Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012 (the "Act") into law. ....

    The Act continues the estate tax exemption of $5 million, indexed for inflation (from 2011).  With the inflation adjustment, the 2013 exemption is $5.25 million.  At this level, a married couple may shield up to $10.5 miliion from federal estate tax.  The Act also provides for a maximum estate tax rate of 40%.

    If we had fallen over the fiscal cliff, the estate tax exemption was scheduled to decrease to $1 million, and the maximum estate tax rate was scheduled to increase to 55%.

    On January 2, 2013, the President signed the American Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012

    The "fiscal cliff" legislation passed this week included $76 billion in special-interest tax credits for the likes of General Electric, Hollywood and even Captain Morgan. But these subsidies weren't the fruit of eleventh-hour lobbying conducted on the cliff's edge -- they were crafted back in August in a Senate committee, and they sat dormant until the White House reportedly insisted on them this week...

    General Electric and Citigroup, for instance, hired Breaux and Lott to extend a tax provision that allows multinational corporations to defer U.S. taxes by moving profits into offshore financial subsidiaries. This provision -- known as the "active financing exception" -- is the main tool GE uses to avoid nearly all U.S. corporate income tax. link

    Bandwidth prohibits me from listing all of the giveaways that require reduction of benefits for the sick, the poor and the elderly.  Listing the welfare provided to military contractors and Homeland Security entities could by themselves fill a book.  

    Parent

    "Other" people's money? (none / 0) (#91)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:04:56 PM EST
    Heyyyy, ... congrats on being tax-exempt, SJ!

    Parent
    I know, right ? (none / 0) (#94)
    by sj on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:08:31 PM EST
    "Other" people's money? (none / 0) (#91)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:04:56 PM EST

    Heyyyy, ... congrats on being tax-exempt, SJ!



    Parent
    Talking points blather, Slado (none / 0) (#107)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:47:16 PM EST
    Or specifics??  If some fact-based specifics to support this latest foray, what would they be?  Otherwise....

    Parent
    most of the country (none / 0) (#122)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 10:02:46 PM EST
    are morons. most of the country can't point out the US on a blank globe. most of the country can't recognize irony in a written sentence. most of the country cannot write or read at a high school level. And therefore?  Any argument based on the  "most of the country" starting point, also must accept the complete intellectual incompetence of that crowd.

    Parent
    Fair enough (none / 0) (#155)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 07:32:52 PM EST
    Good thing their are smart liberals around to tell them what to do.

    Parent
    Death by a thousand cuts (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 04:20:13 PM EST
    WASHINGTON -- Unable to meet tight deadlines in the new health care law, the Obama administration is delaying parts of a program intended to provide affordable health insurance to small businesses and their employees -- a major selling point for the health care legislation.
    Related

    The law calls for a new insurance marketplace specifically for small businesses, starting next year. But in most states, employers will not be able to get what Congress intended: the option to provide workers with a choice of health plans. They will instead be limited to a single plan.

    This choice option, already available to many big businesses, was supposed to become available to small employers in January. But administration officials said they would delay it to 2015 in the 33 states where the federal government will be running insurance markets known as exchanges. And they will delay the requirement for other states as well.

    The promise of affordable health insurance for small businesses was portrayed as a major advantage of the new health care law, mentioned often by White House officials and Democratic leaders in Congress as they fought opponents of the legislation.
    ...
    The delay will "prolong and exacerbate health care costs that are crippling 29 million small businesses," said Senator Mary L. Landrieu, Democrat of Louisiana and chairwoman of the Senate Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship. link

    More ammunition for the Republicans to use in the 2014 elections. Democratic cuts to the safety net programs and only premium increases for too, too many as the result of Obamacare will not be a winning formula for the Democratic politicians in 2014.

    And the question that isn't even being asked (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 06:07:57 PM EST
    is what will the premiums be???

    And what will be the break points for individual subsidies from Uncle Sugar?

    Parent

    Premiums are easy to figure out. They'll use (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 07:59:19 PM EST
    our old tax forms.  How much money do you have?  Send it in.

    Parent
    I'd rather take (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by sj on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 05:09:07 PM EST
    the large amount I am paying in premiums to Blue Cross and redirect them to Uncle Sugar so that Medicare for all could be funded.  Too bad it's not an option.

    Just saying.

    Parent

    Not sure why you would expect (none / 0) (#32)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 09:49:46 PM EST
    good results from a plan that was originally developed by the Heritage Foundation for Republicans.

    Parent
    Is that the plan? (none / 0) (#105)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:41:05 PM EST
    When this thing blows up and drags democratic politicians down with it you're going to blame republicans?

    Parent
    It was a 1990s plan (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 05:38:53 PM EST
    designed by the Heritage Foundation for Republicans.  

    Never was in favor of Obama pushing through this flawed insurance legislation. If it blows up, I plan to be very bipartisan in assigning blame. The Democratic politicians should be held responsible for agreeing to pass a Republican plan that is more geared to propping up the insurance industry than in providing affordable health care and for allowing most of what was worthwhile to be stripped from the legislation. Republicans politicians should be held responsible not addressing the problem when they were in power and for spending the last 4 years (and the next 4 years) in designing ways to hinder implementation and eliminate any and all benefits that people desperately need.

    I believe there will be more than enough blame to go around for this missed opportunity.

    Parent

    The truth hurts (none / 0) (#110)
    by sj on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 05:05:25 PM EST
    doesn't it?  You're pretty good at denying it though.

    Parent
    NYT Editorial Board says "NO" (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 05:31:59 PM EST
    to chained CPI.

    The question now is whether Mr. Obama will again propose to cut the COLA when he unveils his budget next week. We think he should not do so. The president might want to seem like he is willing to compromise by renewing his call for a COLA cut. But Republicans already spurned his offer and are unlikely to take him up on it now. They are more likely to paint him as a foe of Social Security, which would be reinforced by Democrats' opposition to the cut.

    Even if Mr. Obama avoided those pitfalls, a COLA cut is a bad idea, as we will explain in this editorial. It also is a distraction from the real problems of Social Security.
    ...
     Meanwhile, the nation is having a retirement crisis. Even before the recession, people had not saved enough to make up for the loss of traditional pensions. The downturn and slow recovery have made things worse. Less than half of households ages 55 to 64 have retirement savings, and of those, half have less than $120,000. Many near-retirees also have lost home equity or a job.

    All that will leave most retirees heavily reliant on Social Security, which currently pays a modest benefit, on average, of $1,265 a month. Already, the majority of retirees -- with annual incomes up to $32,600 -- get two-thirds to all of their income from Social Security.

    Even at higher incomes, up to $57,960, Social Security is the single biggest source, accounting for almost half. Only the top fifth of seniors, with incomes above $57,960, do not rely on Social Security as their largest source of income; most of them are still working.

    Going forward, there is no escaping the reality that Social Security will be more vital than ever. link



    Perhaps wrong word choice? (none / 0) (#11)
    by unitron on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 06:00:02 PM EST
    "Going forward, there is no escaping the reality that Social Security will be more vital than ever."

    More necessary than ever, but it seems that its vitality is in the crosshairs of many, including, unfortunately, a lot of people who supposedly are not Republicans.

    Parent

    Your comment regarding, (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by NYShooter on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 06:34:09 PM EST
    ".....people who supposedly are not Republicans."

    needs a little explanation. You're, of course referring to people who vote like Republicans but have a "d" after their name.

    Over the past several decades (I would pin-point 1981) Reagan's election, the moral barrier between doing what is right just because it's the moral thing to do, and "every man for him/herself," came down. Using Reagan's battle cry, "Government Is The Problem," politicians stopped thinking of Government as an instrument that helps our citizens, and began thinking of government as a way to line their own pockets, and increase their own power.

    Of course, some corruption has always been with us, but, due to Reagan's enormous popularity, Democrats found that "cooperating" with the President provided convenient cover to claw their way to a spot at the Federal money trough. So, they tasted it, and it tasted gooood.

    The "r's" said to the "d's" "dig in, there's plenty here for all of us." And, thus, the era of "Post-Partisan co-operation" was born.

    Parent

    The Republicans... (none / 0) (#25)
    by unitron on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 08:08:48 PM EST
    ...have been a little more "upfront" about their hatred of SS.

    Although they like to talk about "saving" it when what they really mean is letting Wall Street plunder it one way or another, it's not that hard to tell that's what they really mean.

    We know that just because they're smiling at us is no guarantee they aren't pulling out the knife intended for our backs, but we don't always notice that the others smiling at us are holding their cloaks for them.

    Parent

    Say NYShooter (none / 0) (#52)
    by P3P3P3P3 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:11:51 AM EST
    speaking of "people that vote like Republicans but have a "D" after their name"

    New York City mayoral election activity has State Senator Malcolm Smith "a Democrat, wanting to add a "R" to his "D"" (think of the bribe, money wise, as an R&D tax credit)

    this comes into play for the March Madness-Madness March brackets, though in order to officially qualify, there should to be a conviction, with the FBI taking the lead, we'll call it a rap

    gives new meaning to the phrase "triple double",
    "Smith needed the support of 3 boroughs to get the Republican nod without having to change party affiliation"

    Parent

    Town in Georgia passes an (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 08:04:51 AM EST
    ordinance requiring gun ownership:

    The city council in a small north Georgia town voted Monday night to make gun ownership mandatory - unless you object.

    Council members in Nelson, a city of about 1,300 residents that's located 50 miles north of Atlanta, voted unanimously to approve the Family Protection Ordinance. The measure requires every head of household to own a gun and ammunition to "provide for the emergency management of the city" and to "provide for and protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants."

    Not that every household must go out and purchase a firearm.

    The ordinance exempts convicted felons and those who suffer from certain physical or mental disabilities, as well as anyone who objects to gun ownership. The ordinance also doesn't include any penalty for those who don't comply.

    But backers said they wanted to make a statement about gun rights at a time when President Barack Obama and some states are pushing for more restrictions in the wake of the Connecticut elementary school massacre in December that left 20 children and six educators dead.

    As my Dad used to say..."Jesus Christ on a crutch..."

    If AAA isn't working on an app to advise travelers which cities and towns to steer clear of because of the heavy presence and worship of guns, I'd be very surprised.

    Entire city council... (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 09:31:12 AM EST
    should be fired.  Not for their gun-nuttery, but for wasting time on an ineffectual total waste of time ordinance.  Legislative masturbation.

    Parent
    How about the Colorado legislature? (none / 0) (#44)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 09:48:27 AM EST
    I might not think... (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 10:16:51 AM EST
    the CO bill will do much to reduce bloodshed, but at least it is a legitimate legislative act adressing a societal concern.  Ya know, what we pay for.  That GA city council thing is just jerkin' off...which is fine as long as it's off the taxpayer clock.  

    Why not pass a city ordinance that everybody must own a samurai sword, or even a unicorn?  A small government conservative should be appalled...c'mon bro.

    Parent

    More (none / 0) (#64)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 01:10:07 PM EST

    More lost Colorado taxes and lost income for the Colorado hospitality industry.  

    If as we both suspect it will do precious little to reduce bloodshed, then a "feel good" act that reduces real jobs and reduces real tax revenue seems foolish at best.  Perhaps a legislative tantrum would be most accurate.

    Parent

    That's a shame ... (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 01:37:58 PM EST
    ... but you don't make laws based on whether some group (or an employer) might have a tantrum and take their ball home.

    Parent
    Disagreeing With a Law... (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 01:40:43 PM EST
    ...is entirely different than writing a law with absolutely no purpose.  More of a non-binding resolution.  

    One actually changes the law, whether you agree with it or not, it serves a purpose.  The other is stupidity that doesn't change a thing and I find it odd that anyone is reporting on something that isn't legally binding, but calling it a law.

    From the link:

    The ordinance exempts convicted felons and those who suffer from certain physical or mental disabilities, as well as anyone who objects to gun ownership. The ordinance also doesn't include any penalty for those who don't comply.

    But backers said they wanted to make a statement about gun rights...

    What irritates me the most about this kind of non-sense is this city of 1300 probably has no real crime to speak of, certainly not the kind that requires a gun to stop from happening.  It's like they live in delusionalville and the rest of us who live in areas where guns are a problem get stuck dealing with the collateral of their idiotic beliefs about arming all the citizens.  It might work for a city of 1300, but not cities with actual criminals who actually harm people and actually use guns to do so.

    I would be shocked if this city has a felony a year or if there actually had a murder in it's entire existence.  But arm them all to make a statement, grand idea.


    Parent

    Definitely no crime rate to speak of (none / 0) (#74)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 02:41:49 PM EST
    But the chief - the town's sole police officer - acknowledged the crime rate is very low. He mostly sees minor property thefts and a burglary every few months. The most recent homicide was more than five years ago, he said.


    Parent
    The GA city council version... (none / 0) (#66)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 01:38:07 PM EST
    "We do declare our citizens can henceforth turn water into bullets! Meeting adjourned, bang gavel." lol

    Not for nothin', jobs and tax revenue ain't the be all end all..repealing some federal laws to allows lay-offs of the entire DEA would be a positive for America, if a negative for the unemployment reports and tax revenues.  Some jobs and revenue we don't want bro, the costs are too damn high.

    Parent

    say what you like (none / 0) (#70)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 02:05:56 PM EST
    But it seems pretty clear that neither the GA bill nor the CO bill will do diddly about violent crime.  The GA bill might generate a tiny amount of tax revenue and a smidge of local business. The CO bill OTOH will reduce tax revenue, and reduce direct and indirect jobs in the state, all for no measurable benefit.

    Parent
    Good riddance (none / 0) (#45)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 10:05:15 AM EST
    reminds me of Kennesaw (none / 0) (#132)
    by Amiss on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 01:08:17 AM EST
    a few years b@ck.Another small town north of Atlanta. Also voted for and passed the same.type of fir3arms law.

    Parent
    Two GOP Senators (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by CoralGables on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:20:05 AM EST
    now in favor of gay marriage. Sen. Mark Kirk (R-IL) joins Rob Portman (R-OH). That makes 50.

    Also today Sen. Tom Carper (D-DE) joined the fold.


    US Energy Independence (none / 0) (#1)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 03:02:35 PM EST
    WTF, see the highlighted portion in this article about the US energy boom:
    ...the United States is reaping the benefits of an energy boom created by new drilling technologies that have unlocked vast domestic oil and natural gas reserves. Coupled with decreasing demand due to energy efficiency and continued cultivation of alternative energy sources, an increasing number of experts believe the U.S. could achieve energy independence by the end of the decade - realizing a dream born during the gas crisis of 1973.
    LINK

    Anyone else reading anything like this ?

    Exxon Pipeline Dumps 84K Gallons of Tar Sands Oil (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 03:41:43 PM EST
    Mayflower, Arkansas is definitely reaping the benefits of this new technology this week.

    The Exxon Pegasus tar sands pipeline, which was shut down on March 29 after a rupture was detected in Arkansas, will need to be excavated as the company looks to determine what caused the breach, a spokeswoman said.

    There is still no specific estimate of how much crude oil had spilled, but Exxon said on Sunday that 12,000 barrels of oil and water had been recovered - up from 4,500 barrels on Saturday. Inside Climate News reports that the Environmental Protection Agency has estimated the spill at 84,000 gallons. link

    Watch the video.

    From "Stop Killing our World" on Tumblr, this is said to be a photo of the backyard of one of the homes in that Arkansas subdivision.

    Parent

    Acccidents happen (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 06:05:07 PM EST
    That it was tar sands oil has nothing to do with anything....

    Of course if you believe our economy runs on unicorn gaseous emissions.....

    ;-)

    Parent

    That is the whole point (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by MKS on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 06:22:01 PM EST
    Accidents always happen.  Oil drilling is inherenlty dangerous and always damages the environment.

    There are lots of "little" spills that do not get much press.

    Every decade or so we suffer a catastrophic spill.  For example, Santa Barbara, Exxon Valdez, the BP spill.

    So, the assertion you can drill safely without hurting the environment is false.

    Just one more reason to move off of fossil fuels as soon as possible.....Time to immediately stop the oil subsidies.

    Parent

    That it was tar sands oil has quite a bit to do (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 10:12:42 PM EST
    with it.

    Tar sands oil is the most toxic fossil fuel on the planet, that leaves in its wake scarred landscapes, a web of pipelines,and polluting refineries

    Nope, I think it is you who believe in unicorns.

    Keystone XL will not lessen U.S. dependence on foreign oil, but rather transport Canadian oil to American refineries for export to overseas markets.
    ...
    Keystone XL is an export pipeline. The Port Arthur, Texas, refiners at the end of its route are focused on expanding exports to Europe, and Latin America. Much of the fuel refined from the pipeline's heavy crude oil will never reach U.S. drivers' tanks.

    Valero, the key customer for crude oil from Keystone XL, has explicitly detailed an export strategy to its investors. Because Valero's Port Arthur refinery is in a Foreign Trade Zone, the company can carry out its strategy tax-free.

    We get the toxic chemicals dumped in our backyards, we get the damage to our environment, other countries get the oil and Valero gets to do business tax free. No wonder you like tar sands oil.

    Parent

    BTW U.S. taxpayers get to foot the bill (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 10:47:12 PM EST
    due to "a tax loophole that allows oil companies to forgo paying money into an oil spill cleanup fund when importing tar sands oil." Another reason why the fact that it was tar sands oil is very relevant.

    "This latest pipeline incident is a troubling reminder that oil companies still have not proven that they can safely transport Canadian tar sands oil across the United States without creating risks to our citizens and our environment," said Rep. Markey, the top Democrat on the Natural Resources Committee. "Adding insult to injury, oil companies don't even have to pay a cleanup fee on imported tar sands oil to pay for costs of spills. So homeowners are left with a mess and the taxpayers foot the bill. Exxon should be forced to pay for all cleanup costs and assist affected Arkansas homeowners in whatever way they need. link



    Parent
    Tar Sands oil is the supposedly (none / 0) (#15)
    by MKS on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 06:24:20 PM EST
    safe product that is the subject of the new pipeline everyone is all up in arms about, no?

    Parent
    The irony is that the 84K Gal. spill is nothing (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 08:06:20 PM EST
    Heh, Jed Clampett would love it (none / 0) (#16)
    by MKS on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 06:26:16 PM EST
    CaseyOR (none / 0) (#4)
    by CoralGables on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 03:47:20 PM EST
    Sad news for liberal fans of the Cubbies.

    Turns out the Cubs donated more to politics last year than all other major league baseball teams combined. Who did Cubs owner Joe Ricketts give most of his money to:

    $12 million to the conservative "Ending Spending Action Fund". (Sheldon Addelson gave a measly $1.1 million to that group)

    $!00,000 to the Romney SuperPAC "Restore Our Future".

    and $100,000 to Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker.

    If you need a silver lining, Joe's daughter Laura  Ricketts (also a Cubs co-owner) contributed $575,000 to Democratic candidates and liberal leaning PACs.

    We already knew Joe Ricketts was a wingnut (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by caseyOR on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 05:31:00 PM EST
    billionaire. As a Cubs fan I am more concerned about 2nd baseman Darwin Barney starting the season on the DL, and pitcher Carlos Marmol having a meltdown on the first day.

    As you pointed out, his daughter Laura donates to liberal PACS and Dems. And Laura will most likely be around much longer than her dad.

    Laura, who is a lesbian, is also a founder of the liberal lesbian L-PAC. Her co-founders include Jane Lynch and Billie Jean King.

    She is the first openly LGBT owner of a MLB team.

    I wonder what it's like at the Ricketts' family Thanksgiving table.

    Parent

    Carlos Marmol (none / 0) (#27)
    by CoralGables on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 08:29:37 PM EST
    is a day to day meltdwn waiting to happen. It's his modus operandi for his entire career. 6 walks per 9 innings. He'd make managers take up smoking from the grave.

    Parent
    Since all my Cubs support is emotional (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 07:27:11 PM EST
    rather than financial, I won't worry too much about it. Hard to boycott when I only go to games every 5 years or so. I'll just consider my share as going to Laura rather than her dad.

    Jane Lynch went to my alma mater, Illinois State.

    Go Cubbies! Undefeated!

    Parent

    ruffian, how goes the job situation? (none / 0) (#31)
    by caseyOR on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 09:44:43 PM EST
    Got one? Looking for one?

    Parent
    Another way to look at it... (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 07:31:15 PM EST
    maybe his political causes will inherit the curse of his baseball team.

    Parent
    No wonder they'll never win... (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 03:56:12 PM EST
    with an owner spending 12 million on an outfit called "ending spending".  You're doing it wrong Joe! lol

    In NYC Opening Day news, all is right in the universe for one day.  Bob Murphy givin' a Happy Recap in heaven as the Mets smoke Oculus' Pods, 11-2.  And the Evil Empire drops their opener on the other side of the bridges, 8-2 to the Sox.  

    Parent

    Wondering if I could even give away my home (none / 0) (#17)
    by oculus on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 06:32:18 PM EST
    opener ticket. Pathetic.

    I read NYT opening day blog. Did you know the Mets can adjust ticket prices depending on how the tickets are selling re a specific game?

    Parent

    Maybe you can talk Padres' ownership ... (none / 0) (#26)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 08:20:08 PM EST
    ... into moving the team to Las Vegas, which serves the two-fold purpose of ridding San Diego the "pathetic" embarrassment that's the Padres, and providing an opening for Angels owner Art Moreno to move his the team to Petco Park from Anaheim, where he's thus far been unsuccessful in shaking down city officials for a new stadium, even though Angels Stadium was completely overhauled by the city in the mid-1990s.

    However, for his marketing purposes, I'm afraid that Moreno will probably insist that you call the team "The Los Angeles Angels of San Diego."

    Parent

    Great idea re the Angels. Anything (none / 0) (#29)
    by oculus on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 09:03:57 PM EST
    for Pujois.

    Parent
    Cubs won their opener. They beat the Pirates (none / 0) (#19)
    by caseyOR on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 06:38:16 PM EST
    3-1. I know it's only day 1 of a long season, but any Cubs win is a good Cubs win. And it's the nicer way to start the season than losing.

    Parent
    Unwritten Understanding (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by P3P3P3P3 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 08:31:00 PM EST
    is that the Cubs are allowed to win the early games so that they sell out their tickets and promise to lose the rest of the season

    Parent
    watch out kdog... (none / 0) (#20)
    by fishcamp on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 07:19:07 PM EST
    the ghost of Phill Rizzuto  will come and gitchoo...

    Parent
    Dodgers win their opener, 4-0. (none / 0) (#39)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 02:27:21 AM EST
    Clayton Kershaw continued his mastery of the defending world champion Giants, tossing a four-hit, conplete game shutout and breaking a scoreless tie himself in the bottom of the 8th inning with the very first home run of his career.

    It capped a very memorable day in which Dodger Hall of Famer Sandy Koufax made an almost unheard-of public appearance, coming out of the bullpen to "relieve" Dodgers' co-owner Magic Johnson on the mound and throw the ceremonial first pitch of the season at Dodger Stadium, to the delight of over 56,000 cheering fans -- 51 years after he started the very first game ever played at Chavez Ravine.

    Parent

    Magic touch (none / 0) (#125)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:17:39 PM EST
    After years being unable to cheer for my childhood team because of their owners, I can now care a little bit again. Thanks, Ervin.

    Parent
    Owners starting with Ruper Murdoch, that is (none / 0) (#126)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:18:21 PM EST
    n/t

    Parent
    Johnson and his fellow owners ... (none / 0) (#134)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 01:33:25 AM EST
    ... have been a godsend for the franchise. They just completed a long-overdue $100 million overhaul of Dodger Stadium. The good news is that the ballpark looks refreshed and renewed. The bad news is that the friggin' concession lines are still as long and as slow as ever. Some things never change.

    Parent
    Rumors about tearing down Dodger Stadium... (none / 0) (#157)
    by shoephone on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 07:41:39 PM EST
    to create a new football stadium at Chavez Ravine. I'm not convinced! But one of my cousins at our seder was touting this as a rumor to be feared...

    Parent
    A bad April Fool's joke gone awry: (none / 0) (#30)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 09:29:09 PM EST
    Big Island police were deluged with calls from the public today after a local radio station falsely reported that the main highway between Hilo and Kona, aka "The Saddle Road," had been inundated by a lava flow.

    While there has long been substantial volcanic activity on the Big Island since the fall of 1983, that activity is presently restricted to the southeastern side of the island at two of Kilauea's craters, Halema'uma'u and Pu'u O'o. The Saddle Road is 80 miles away to the north, and runs directly through the center of the island between Mauna Kea, which hasn't erupted in more than 1,000 years, and Mauna Loa, which last erupted in 1984.

    I can understand why tourists would be concerned at hearing such reports, since they obviously aren't from here, but you'd really like to think local residents would know better than to fall for that silly prank. I mean, I know where the vocanic activity is currently taking place, and I'm 200 miles away.

    As for the radio station that broadcast this false report, I'd certainly expect some reprimands for the personnel who schemed this up, because deliberately seeking to sow panic and create chaos with a false report about an ongoing matter of public safety is certainly no laughing matter.

    Aloha.

    Think Orson Welles. (none / 0) (#33)
    by oculus on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 10:11:53 PM EST
    That was Halloween (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Peter G on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 12:14:43 AM EST
    not April Fools.  My father had a small part in that "War of the Worlds" production, less than a year after he graduated from college.

    Parent
    Interesting factoid b (none / 0) (#38)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 02:03:32 AM EST
    The (none / 0) (#40)
    by lentinel on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:52:51 AM EST
    broadcast still holds up.

    I listened to it again recently.

    Orson spoke of the use of silence - "is anybody there?........

    Silence on the radio was a no no. Still is.

    But he used it so effectively.

    What part did your father play?

    Parent

    His job with the Mercury Theatre on the Air (5.00 / 6) (#42)
    by Peter G on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 09:18:34 AM EST
    was Assistant to the Publicity Manager ... basically, office boy.  What we might call an "intern" today, although he was paid ($5/wk or something).  He and all other staff helped do crowd noises, miscellaneous interjected voices, and other sound effects. There is a cute novelization, later made into a  film, imagining and describing the Mercury Theatre in those days.

    Parent
    That (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by lentinel on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 01:51:18 PM EST
    must have been so exciting.

    What an era!

    Parent

    Another type (none / 0) (#35)
    by P3P3P3P3 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 10:41:27 PM EST
    of Volcanic activity over flowed the Magnificent Mile

    ahh, Spring is in the air, what a refreshing breeze, surfs up, catch the wave

    No Foolin'

    Parent

    Elizabeth Warren and Barney Frank? (none / 0) (#47)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 10:32:16 AM EST
    Steve Alford (none / 0) (#48)
    by CoralGables on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 10:51:58 AM EST
    received some trash talking here the other day for skipping out on New Mexico after 6 seasons. Will Andy Enfield be trashed for skipping out on Dunk City after just 2 seasons?

    I thought Alford was getting grief not (none / 0) (#51)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:09:48 AM EST
    because he left NM after 6 seasons, but because he bailed on them less than 2 weeks after agreeing to a 10-year contract extension.

    Parent
    That's why (none / 0) (#53)
    by CoralGables on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:16:24 AM EST
    schools attach buyout clauses in the contract. It's usually the bigger the contract, the bigger the buyout.

    The new Alford contract (signed or just agreed to depending on who you read) wasn't in effect yet though, so his buyout was much smaller than it would have been under his new pending contract.

    Parent

    After watching... (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:37:23 AM EST
    that poor kid on Lousville writhing on the floor with a bone sticking out of his leg, I'm f8ckin' done with big-time NCAA sports until the serfs start getting paid.  I just can't stomach hearing about another NCAA coach making multi-millions while the real marketable talent gets a measley scholarship that gets taken away if somebody so much as takes 'em out to dinner.

    I can't look past how sick this NBA & NFL minor-league system is anymore...we should all be ashamed of ourselves for feeding this beast for as long as we have.

    Parent

    They can go overseas and get paid (none / 0) (#56)
    by CoralGables on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:39:37 AM EST
    if they want. No one forces anyone to go to college to play sports.

    Parent
    True enough... (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:47:08 AM EST
    but you're not seriously defending the NCAA business model are ya?  It doesn't bother you at all how these "students" are being exploited?

    I'm not saying pass a law or anything, but I just can't ignore that big pink elephant on the floor.

    Parent

    Are you going to pay (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by CoralGables on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:54:54 AM EST
    the basketball players at George Mason the same as the kids at Kentucky? How about the football players at North Dakota State the same as at Michigan?

    And if you are going to pay the major sports, are you going to drop all the non-revenue producing sports that are paid for by the revenue earning sports?

    Parent

    I'm not thinking... (none / 0) (#61)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 12:03:36 PM EST
    true market value...just a bone in light of the obscene amounts of cashish generated.

    Say a flat rate stipend for all Div I football and basketball players, with maybe a bonus for a bowl or NCAA tourney appearance.  Should be plenty left over to fund non-revenue generating sports.

    Parent

    I played a major college sport (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 02:29:46 PM EST
    Athletes are already paid.

    Free food, free school and free room and board.  Plus even free clothes and swag.  I still have a gold watch from the 1996 SEC tourney.

    Now there is no arguing that they do not earn a fair market wage (I was overpaid) but that is not the NCAA's fault for all their problems.

    Blame the NBA and NFL who use the NCAA as a free minor league farm system.   Ever wonder why we don't have these issues in hockey and baseball?

    You can't even blame the NCAA for the bowl system.  That is the fault of the major university presidents.  But I digress.

    The deal has not changed in 100 years.  Free education, free room and board plus incidentals.   We are not talking about Lebron or Kobe here.   We are talking about players who don't get any rea money for their troubles because they aren't good enough to turn pro.   Well if the good players went to the minors there wouldn't be any millions of revenue to split up so why should they get more then he girls or minor sports athletes who work just as hard?

    I would have loved to get some cash but they weren't there to see me or anyone on my team.    Why should i get money for being the 12th  man on the roster?  Because you're not going to be able to not pay me.  So then what happens to the athletes in minor sports when we start only paying basketball and football players.   Why should they play?   You open that box and you won't like what comes out.

    We got a pretty good deal.  It's not the NCAA's fault lots of players squander their opportunity.

    Parent

    Like you said... (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 02:48:51 PM EST
    not even close to fair & free market value...it's glorified indentured servitude.

    We don't look back at indentured servants during colonial times and say they got paid in free passage to the new world...we say they got done dirty and put a stop to such practices.  

    I would think a free market guy like you would be appalled by these business practices.  

    Parent

    I'd be appalled if the kids were (none / 0) (#79)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 03:45:57 PM EST
    Getting nothing.

    In fact 99% are overpaid.  

    The only ones getting underpaid are the one and doners.

    The rest get an education and all the perks of being a major athlete when they'd get little to nothing in a minor league system.

    The schools use the kids and the good kids use the schools to make it big.   The rest get a chance to go to college for free.

    Win, win, win.

    Parent

    I don't get your "overpaid" argument... (none / 0) (#84)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 03:57:23 PM EST
    no players, no game...every player is critical to the business.  The NCAA tournament generates 1 billion in advertising revenue alone.  Billion with a B.  4 year ride plus room and board is getting off cheap for even the benchwarmers.

    Though I suppose if the NCAA really got crafty they could cut scholarships to 5 for basketball and 22-25 for football, make tuition paying walk-ons fill the benches, we'd still lap it up, and they'd really clean up!

    Parent

    If the system were a free market (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:16:37 PM EST
    System you wouldn't like it.

    Most wouldn't be paid enough to pay of their college debt.   Think there would be women's sports in college if they had to earn their way?

    You open Pandora's box on paying players and the whole system comes down.  

    Parent

    What of major industries & govt subsidies? (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 05:08:11 PM EST
    At the start, the transportation (see Airlines) and energy (see oil & Exxon) and Agribusiness see Monsanto & GM foods) come to mind.  And,  that doen't touch the designed tax breaks.  In fact, one could easily argue that a sustainable "free market" economy does not exist nor could not exist in a large, complex society.  That's because, like the word "efficiency" the definition varies by belief & ideology.  After all, is theory based on a presumption that a large, complex society is merely a reflection of an assembly line operation ... Or might there not be some ethical considerations that could/should and will nudge into the so-called "free market" universe?  Ah yes, the "free" hand of supply & demand and all the robot critters that presupposes.

    Parent
    That is NOT the free market you reference (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:28:06 PM EST
    Not in any way. Because no free market, as the true definition of it rests, has ever existed. Nor has pure democracy. America is a corporate kleptocracy and has been for more than half a century. Go back and listen to Eisenhower, and then look up what a free market REALLY means.

    Parent
    Not to Mention... (none / 0) (#80)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 03:52:21 PM EST
    ...all the used up athletes that have no collegiate skills/degree because their programs decided education wasn't as important as a winning season.

    Imagine if athletics was a free market, some of these kids could pay for their education 1000 times over.

    Parent

    Did you play college sports? (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 03:57:01 PM EST
    Because if you did you'd know what your saying makes no sense.

    Kids choose to not go class.

    Every athlete has access to free tutors and help if they want it.

    Their'sthe rub.   Do they want it.   Schools can't make them want it and believe me they try.

    The good ones get paid.  

     The others need to take advantage of their opportunities.  There are millions more that don't get these chances.

    Parent

    I'm confused (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by sj on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 03:59:13 PM EST
    Did you play for every school?  Is that how you know that what you are claiming for all players is actually true for all players?

    Parent
    Of course not (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:08:20 PM EST
    But the NCAA has compliance rules and all the schools follow them.

    Especially in the big major sports.

    Kids have to stay current to keep playing.   If they choose to stop when the games are over that is their choice.

    Do you really think there are schools that won't help these kids if they ask?  

    What I've seen happen is a kid comes in totally unprepared for what college requires on an academic level.   They do just enough to get by to keep playing and once the final season is over they drop out because they hate the school part of it.   It sucks but it happens to non athletes as well and they don't get all the extra help.

    I'm sorry but unless you've been in the system like I have you simply are uninformed.

    Yes the schools "use" the kids but don't "use" them anymore then IBM or Google "uses" their employees.   It's a fair deal but the deal is dependent on one party making the most of their opportunity.

    Often the one party, the kids, doesn't hold up their end of the deal.

    Parent

    Pleaze... (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:37:52 PM EST
    ...I guess all those actual kids athletes who get hurt and are forced to drop out without an education are myths because all schools care about people's lives because yours did, or at least you believe they did.

    One does not need to be an athlete to understand this concept, that is beyond ridiculous.

    Why not treat them like professional sports and make the schools pay them, for certain kids that would cover 1000 semesters of school.

    Parent

    Why? (none / 0) (#156)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 07:36:07 PM EST
    Because most schools lose money already.

    Reason

    You make these schools start paying players and schools will start dropping the programs.

    If that's the goal by all means.  

    That will be great for all the kids who don't get to go to college.

    Parent

    I played baseball at Washington ... (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 09:01:37 PM EST
    sj: "Did you play for every school?  Is that how you know that what you are claiming for all players is actually true for all players?"

    ... in the early 1980s, I can only respond with what I experienced personally, but how Slado described it is also how it worked at UW.

    We were given every opportunity to succeed academically in college, including tutorial assistance if needed and desired, which was a perc that most of my peers did not receive. Further, as the current parent of a college athlete, it's also been my observation that my daughter has also been given the same opportunities for success I enjoyed as a Huasky baseball player. (And, might I add as a proud daddy, she's graduating from Albany with a B.A. in physical education and sports medicine next month!)

    But you make a very valid point, because it's not like that every place. At more than a few major institutions across the country, the overall graduation rate of its athletes has long been a source of public embarrassment -- and if it isn't, it certainly should be.

    But the answer to me is not to pay the college athletes at those schools, but rather, to sanction those schools and programs for not making the effort to keep their athletes on track for graduation. That's why the UConn men's basketball team was ruled ineligible for this year's NCAA tourney, because their academic standing is historically just this side of bankrupt.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Here's a Concerned... (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 09:05:51 AM EST
    ...coach at Rutgers showing how much he cares about athletes.  LINK

    Parent
    If he isn't fired by the end of the day (none / 0) (#137)
    by CoralGables on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 09:08:33 AM EST
    I'll be surprised.

    Parent
    He should have been fired months ago; (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Anne on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 09:20:31 AM EST
    once again, it seems like there are only consequences when whatever happened becomes known to more than the select few who always seem to circle the wagons to avoid having to do anything about it.

    There's not only no excuse for coaches to behave this way, there's also no excuse for university officials trying to keep it quiet.  These people are supposed to be looking out for the students, and it seems like, once again, that has failed to happen.

    It's disgusting.

    Parent

    Guess I should have said by lunch (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by CoralGables on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 09:41:04 AM EST
    Rutgers just fired him.

    Parent
    What's the ETA... (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 10:25:36 AM EST
    ...on Rutgers Director of Intercollegiate Athletics Tim Pernetti who was defending not firing him up to yesterday ?

    The NJ legislature is looking at this and even Chris Christie said he was "deeply disturbed".

    I say he is unemployed by the weekend and that Eric Murdock is getting a call from an wrongful termination lawyer about every 7 minutes.

    All of it for a coach who never deserved the job to begin with.
    -------------------

    But my point was that some athletic departments don't give a damn about athletes more than what they can do for the program.  Who in their right mind would put up with this from a superior, people with no other options, kids who are being leveraged with a scholarship.  

    The people who were suppose to help these athletes, failed them miserably and one doesn't have had to play collegiate sports to understand that.

    Parent

    Rice is fired (none / 0) (#148)
    by Zorba on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 11:37:53 AM EST
    Yep (none / 0) (#140)
    by sj on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 09:48:43 AM EST
    But only because it was made public.
    Pernetti was shown hours of video in late November by a former employee.
    .
    .
    .
    Murdock told ESPN he went to Pernetti as early as last summer to inform him of Rice's coaching tactics.
    And the response?  "Rehabilitation" for Rice and termination for Murdock.  Whistleblowers are now the bad guys.  Jeebus.

    Parent
    Not defending him and he should be gone (none / 0) (#142)
    by CoralGables on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 10:10:54 AM EST
    but ESPN acknowledges it was actually hundreds of hours of video turned over to them to cull the 90 second video released.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#143)
    by sj on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 10:19:47 AM EST
    ESPN acknowledges it was actually hundreds of hours of video turned over to them to cull the 90 second video released.
    But Pernetti was provided hours of video as well.  And chose "rehabilitation" for Rice and dismissal for Murdock.  (Oh wait, he was dismissed because he attended a basketball camp.)

    Anyway, I didn't think you were defending him but I'm not sure what your point is here.

    Parent

    No real point (none / 0) (#145)
    by CoralGables on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 10:26:33 AM EST
    (just playing both sides a little, although in this case it's a difficult task)

    The "rehabilitation" included a 3 game suspension and a $50,000 fine. I don't know the details of the assistant's firing but that's pretty standard fare when you try to undercut your superior.

    I suspect both will have a difficult time finding their next job in college basketball.

    Parent

    Probably true (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by sj on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 10:35:43 AM EST
    that's pretty standard fare when you try to undercut your superior
    And is why poison manages to rise to the top so often instead of cream.  Again, whistleblowers have become the bad guy.  And ignoring -- even rewarding -- bad behavior has become the accepted SOP.  Affordable fines (The 41-year old Rice received a five-year contract with an average salary of $650,000 annually) and time off to give anyone watching something else to look at for a while.

    Parent
    I've found a small positive (none / 0) (#147)
    by CoralGables on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 11:01:38 AM EST
    btw, why? (none / 0) (#149)
    by sj on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 11:58:49 AM EST
    just playing both sides a little...


    Parent
    Unrelated (none / 0) (#150)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 12:17:55 PM EST
    But here is a story about a male professor that body slammed a female student and had to pulled off of her by students.

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#158)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 07:41:47 PM EST
    I would only state that poor graduation rates typically coincide with the types of kids recruited in the first place.

    Simply put some athletes in the major sports have little chance to graduate but are often the most talented.   Mix that with the reality that these same kids "know" they're going pro and there you have it.

    However I'm quite sure if a kid really wanted to graduate at almost any NCAA school they could find the resources to do so.   Not all schools are equal obviously but some of this has to be put back on the players.

    The idea that these kids are helpless pawns frankly is degrading to them.


    Parent

    One more thing (none / 0) (#73)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 02:36:08 PM EST
    Think Mr. Ware paid for his medical care?

    University of Louisville picked that up just like they've picked up his insurance and all care since he showed up on campus.  

    I was just at IU medical center.   I can assure you that surgery wasn't cheap.

    Guy on my team at Vandy had never seen a Dentist.  First year on campus he got fillings, braces and the whole shebang.  Didn't pay a nickel.  

    Parent

    That's no prize... (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 02:54:29 PM EST
    get hurt on the job, bossman better pick up the doctor tab!  

    And after Lousiville is done with him, what if there are residual effects of the injury that require long-term care?  afaik Mr. Ware is on his own, correct?  

    And what about all the football players who may require long-term care for post-concussion syndrome and/or other sports injuries incurred while working for university.

    Parent

    It's a free country (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 03:53:47 PM EST
    He could have suffered the same injury playing in his back yard.

    Instead he is world famous.

    I'm trying real hard to see the injustice here.  

    He is making $100k a year when you add up tuition, housing, food and incidentals.  Incidentals include free tutors, medical care, swag, travel.

    When he's done he could have a degree from a university most of his classmates will be indebted to for years to come.

    I can tell you first hand that players that do not graduate do so because they choose too.   Every University will help these kids as much as possible to get a degree, they just have to want too.

    I'm tired of the whoa is me criticism of NCAA athletics.  These kids get a chance to make something of their lives by playing a sport.

    These are the last kids we should be worrying about.   Millions more get no chance to do anything with their lives.

    Parent

    Yeah... (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:00:35 PM EST
    I could blow my knee out any given week playing rec league and I pay for the priveledge...but our league doesn't generate billions and billions of dollars.

    It's exploitive...I'm with ya on free will, but that doesn't make the business practices any less exploitive.  At the very least we can acknowledge that.


    Parent

    Personally (none / 0) (#85)
    by sj on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 03:57:29 PM EST
    These are the last kids we should be worrying about.   Millions more get no chance to do anything with their lives.
    I don't think we should be choosing which kids "we should be worrying about."  We should be worrying about all of them.  Granted not all for the same reasons, but that's true outside of the sports arena also.

    Parent
    You can worry about them if you want (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:01:03 PM EST
    Butt I'll spend my time and money on the ones that don't get a free college education if they want it for bouncing a ball.

    Parent
    The same kids have the same (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:33:19 PM EST
    effects from playing in High School.

    The football thing is trickier because the science is new but now that the risks are known the risks are known.

    Are these kids slaves?   Do they have no say in the matter?

    I've been with these kids, I've lived with them, eaten with them and "gone to war" with them.   They would break both legs and each arm to play college ball because it's a chance to get out from where they've come from and they simply love to play the game.

    I wish the colleges could make them graduate, make them understand what an opportunity they've been given but we don't live in that kind of country.

    They are given the opportunity of a lifetime in exchange for them playing the game they love.  

    Most dream of going pro and not enough dream of using their opportunity to get a degree and get the life that many of their peers have no chance of having.

    Some do, but not enough.   That is not the fault of the NCAA but the fault of society failing them before they get to college.

    Parent

    Ware is a big name athlete (none / 0) (#90)
    by brodie on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:03:04 PM EST
    Louisville would be too embarrassed not to take care of him fully this year and next.

    It's the non-star athletes who are vulnerable -- exploitation of their services while playing, big medical bills to pay if they incur serious long term injuries.

    Parent

    since money is an inanimate object... (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:34:15 PM EST
    ...of no intrinsic value, created by a corrupt government anytime it wants it for its masters, your notion that a human being is somehow at fault for being valued above it, well, you have a lot of sentient humanity to find in yourself. You cannot separate any of these arguments about college sports, the economy, jobs, the NCAA, the size of basketballs, ANYthing, from the reality that we all live in a nation in which we have been brainwashed since birth, as you obviously have been too, to consider human beings as worth less than inanimate non objects of our own creation. The problem with modern humans in general is this: we hold money more important than people. Always.  

    And if Vandy chose to use your dentally deficient teammate, then they have the moral duty to pay for his are. When you want to exploit kids you KNOW are not able to handle the total reality of their experience, it's on YOU to make it right. Or, I guess, we simply live in an anarchy.

    Parent

    who is society? (none / 0) (#130)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:36:58 PM EST
    it is us. so say that we, you and i, have failed them. and please don't put go to war, in quotes or not, it has nothing to do with sports. Also, how is the NCAA not part of society? explain.

    Parent
    In Slado's defense, I think he meant ... (none / 0) (#133)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 01:22:41 AM EST
    ... the term "gone to war" as a euphemism for athletic competition. I've heard it used by coaches that way, as a means to encourage teammates to bond with one another, because you're "going to war" with these guys.

    Parent
    The modern athlete (none / 0) (#159)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 07:43:53 PM EST
    Uses this all the time.

    That's why I put it in quotes.

    Parent

    GREAT hire by USC (none / 0) (#127)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:24:50 PM EST
    I couldn't care less about Alford, he's a Bobby Knight product and a ho-hum hire by UCLA. The guy does not have the personality for that job, period. Enfield, I am sorry, will take USC where they have never been in B-Ball. He has a better town and school to recruit to, Hollywood to recruit to, and he is a coach with a rare ability, it seems, to connect with his players on levels both sporting and emotional/personal. When a team that unlikely makes it that far and the players are chanting their coach's name, and his FIRST name no less, it's no fluke, believe me. Maybe I'm wrong and he flames out at the previously empty Galen Center, but IMO UCLA bricked and USC hit nothing but net. That I will now be more interested in watching USC next year, rather than UCLA, whom I have loved since childhood, wow.  I am completely amazed.

    Parent
    Yeah, he and his team had a great high-profile run in the NCAA tournament. So did Bobby Dye with Cal State Fullerton in 1978, when his Titans took out 4th-ranked New Mexico and 5th-ranked San Francisco, and then came agonizingly close to beating 8th-ranked Arkansas and crashing the Final Four. Not surprisingly, Dye was offered the USC job in 1979, after the great Bob Boyd burned out and left after 13 seasons -- and he still says that's one job he's never regretted turning down.

    USC is taking a chance with Enfield, and honestly, they've got nothing to lose, because he can't do any worse than the last two coaches they've ha-- scratch that, because Tim Floyd was an ethical disaster who got the Trojans in all kinds of hot water with the NCAA during his short 2005-09 tenure there.

    Honestly, I give Andy Enfield three seasons, four tops, before he's either fired or simply leaves of his own volition. Ever since the aforementioned Bob Boyd left in 1979, a basketball head coach's shelf life at USC has been even less than those who've been toiling down the freeway in Westwood after John Wooden's 1975 retirement, with nine coming and going over 34 seasons.

    Parent

    You're out to lunch on this one, my friend (none / 0) (#160)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 10:59:43 PM EST
    No offense intended, and with all due respect, but you just don't seem to get it. What you speak of with Dye is a different era and a different coach with a different team. No logical comparison at all. And Dye never even took the job. The game itself, the players, and the way it is coached is changing rapidly (the average age of a D1 head coach is now 44 and falling by the minute). This is a GREAT hire. This is a guy players LOVE to play for, far beyond anything Dye could've managed in twenty lifetimes on that level, and Enfield has shown the ability to take a NOBODY to the sweet 16, a bigger nobody than has EVER been there. Sorry, there are no flukes at the major levels of sports, except fluke moments, there are no fluke runs like that. Did you hear ANY expert say it was a fluke? They saw the team, they saw how it played, they saw how it reacted to their coach. And they knew it was real. To get a group from that low a conference, to play that well, in the biggest games of their lives, with that much confidence, requires a coach with something terribly special.

    I repeat, a team chanting their coach's FIRST name like that is not just rare at that level, it is kind of stunning, and it represents something pretty special in the world of sports.  

    BTW, you wanna talk bad hire?  Steve Alford is an awful hire. Go read up on his behavior at Iowa regarding a sexual assault by one of his players. It was disgraceful, and at the UCLA press conference he essentially blamed the administration at Iowa FOR HIS OWN BEHAVIOR. He sounded like a robot. He sounded like the opposite of everything Enfield used to get his team to new heights.

    You and I were coached in a different era by a style of coaching that thankfully is dying (though forgive me if I assume too much about the coaches you had.) But if I'm wrong, which I am very good at, feel free to rub it in later.

    Parent

    You're out to lunch on this one, my friend (none / 0) (#161)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 11:04:15 PM EST
    No offense intended, and with all due respect, but you just don't seem to get it. What you speak of with Dye is a different era and a different coach with a different team. No logical comparison at all. And Dye never even took the job. The game itself, the players, and the way it is coached is changing rapidly (the average age of a D1 head coach is now 44 and falling by the minute). This is a GREAT hire. This is a guy players LOVE to play for, far beyond anything Dye could've managed in twenty lifetimes on that level, and Enfield has shown the ability to take a NOBODY to the sweet 16, a bigger nobody than has EVER been there. Sorry, there are no flukes at the major levels of sports, except fluke moments, there are no fluke runs like that. Did you hear ANY expert say it was a fluke? They saw the team, they saw how it played, they saw how it reacted to their coach. And they knew it was real. To get a group from that low a conference, to play that well, in the biggest games of their lives, with that much confidence, requires a coach with something terribly special.

    I repeat, a team chanting their coach's FIRST name like that is not just rare at that level, it is kind of stunning, and it represents something pretty special in the world of sports.  

    BTW, you wanna talk bad hire?  Steve Alford is an awful hire. Go read up on his behavior at Iowa regarding a sexual assault by one of his players. It was disgraceful, and at the UCLA press conference he essentially blamed the administration at Iowa FOR HIS OWN BEHAVIOR. He sounded like a robot. He sounded like the opposite of everything Enfield used to get his team to new heights.

    You and I were coached in a different era by a style of coaching that thankfully is dying (though forgive me if I assume too much about the coaches you had.) But if I'm wrong, which I am very good at, feel free to rub it in later.

    Parent

    double post alert (none / 0) (#162)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 11:06:05 PM EST
    sorry, j, wish i could delete it myself

    Parent
    The startling rise of disability in America (none / 0) (#49)
    by jbindc on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 10:54:02 AM EST
    A serious problem that gets more serious every year. (Emphasis mine)

    In the past three decades, the number of Americans who are on disability has skyrocketed. The rise has come even as medical advances have allowed many more people to remain on the job, and new laws have banned workplace discrimination against the disabled. Every month, 14 million people now get a disability check from the government.

    The federal government spends more money each year on cash payments for disabled former workers than it spends on food stamps and welfare combined. Yet people relying on disability payments are often overlooked in discussions of the social safety net. The vast majority of people on federal disability do not work. Yet because they are not technically part of the labor force, they are not counted among the unemployed.

    In other words, people on disability don't show up in any of the places we usually look to see how the economy is doing. But the story of these programs -- who goes on them, and why, and what happens after that -- is, to a large extent, the story of the U.S. economy. It's the story not only of an aging workforce, but also of a hidden, increasingly expensive safety net.




    Counterargument (none / 0) (#62)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 12:42:45 PM EST
    The kind of conclusions the writer for NPR arrives at are specious at best, and malignant at worst. The implicit assumptions are that many abled persons are applying for and receiving disability insurance benefits and that this is due to loss of jobs in a recessionary economy. The paper's analysis is argued through and in the presented charts. Applications for disability have risen from 1.5 to 2.0 persons/ per 100 people since the Crash of 2008 and unemployment has doubled. So the implication is that disability has functioned to support those with less education for whom there are now fewer jobs.

    While those assumptions have "face validity" and seem emotionally firm, they lack accuracy.

    In a response to the NPR report, The Consortium for Citizens With Disabilities has written a rebuttal to the NPR report. They found the NPR report to be incomplete, misleading, and perpetuating dangerous myths about the disabled.
    .....

    According to Social Security's Chief Actuary Steve Goss, the growth in SSDI was expected and is mostly the result of two factors: baby boomers entering their high-disability years, and women entering the workforce in large numbers in the 1970s and 1980s so that more are now "insured" for SSDI based on their own prior contributions."

    ...
    The increase in the number of children receiving SSI benefits in the past decade is similarly explained by demographic factors, namely the increase in the number of poor and low-income children. From 2000 to 2011, the number of poor children skyrocketed from about 11 million to over 16 million, and more than 1 in 5 U.S. children live in poverty today. 44 percent of U.S. children now live in low-income households. Since SSI is a means-tested program, more poor and low-income children means more children with disabilities are financially eligible for benefits. Importantly, the share of low-income children who receive SSI benefits has remained constant at about 3 to 4 percent.7
    link



    Parent
    What I found most interesting (none / 0) (#63)
    by jbindc on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 12:48:27 PM EST
    And that I knew, but is never really highlighted (which I think is what the NPR writer's argument is)is that all the people on disability (whether they can work or not) are not counted in unemployment numbers, so when we talk about the economy and when policy is made about unemployment, this issue is not addressed.

    Probably the Consortium for Citizens With Disabilities sees things differently than I do, but I did not take the NPR piece as a disparagement on people having disability claims.

    Parent

    Why should people on disability be counted (5.00 / 4) (#116)
    by caseyOR on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 06:00:23 PM EST
    in unemployment numbers? If I understand correctly, the unemployment figure we see every month measures people who are out of work and looking for work. That would not be people on disability, just as it does not include people who are out of work and want to work but have given up hope and stopped looking for a job.

    The case could perhaps be made that all people who are out of work should be counted in the unemployment numbers. Of course, this would include not just the disabled but stay-at-home parents and others who are not employed for various reasons. Or we could count those who don't have a job and want a job.

    Also, it is very hard to get Social Security Disability. SSA routinely denies most claims for disability. People can then choose to appeal that denial. The appeals process is arduous and long. The backlog for getting an appeals hearing is years long. Some very sick people die waiting for their appeals hearing to be scheduled. And there is no guarantee that the appeal will succeed.

    Of course this does not mean that no one has ever scammed SSDI. It does mean that the problem of scamming is small.

    Moralizing and hyperventilating about the growing ranks of SSDI recipients is just the latest front in the "those people are lazy and living off my dime" hysteria.

    Don't fall for it, fergawdsake.

    Parent

    You assume (none / 0) (#169)
    by jbindc on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:27:36 AM EST
    That everyone on disability can't or doesn't want to work.  Most can't, but there are those who can't find work that accommodates their disability, so taking disability payments are the only way for them to survive.  For anyone to suggest  that all people on disability just don't want to work otherwise is not only silly, but offensive.

    And they should be counted when talking about the economy because they are ignored in the equations - resources in vs. resources out. Why shouldn't there be another category in the unemployment numbers - disabled but seeking work?  It would certainly give a truer number of the unemployment situation in this country and maybe it would actually force politicians to shape policy to address these problems and maybe work harder to focus on getting more people to work.

    I'm not sure what imaginary planet you live on to assume I am "hyperventilating" about the number if people on SSDI, but I hope there are unicorns there.  I merely posted an article about a problem that I think is clearly ignored in this country - namely helping those people who WANT to work find something.

    Parent

    I didn't see that suggestion at all. (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by sj on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:02:34 PM EST
    For anyone to suggest  that all people on disability just don't want to work otherwise is not only silly, but offensive.
    So you're getting offended at the wrong person.  And anyway, I don't know, I agree that there should be some sort of metric for them when talking about the economy, but I'm not sure unemployment numbers are the place to do it.  Especially as there is no count for those who are out of work and have given up.  I suspect there is more than a little overlap there, though.

    I must say, however, that I have high anxiety whenever I hear about those who have given up looking for a job.  How do they survive?  Where do they go?  What kind of a society are we, anyway?

    And yes, there should be a great deal more focus on getting people of all abilities back to work.

    Parent

    You assume (none / 0) (#170)
    by jbindc on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:27:38 AM EST
    That everyone on disability can't or doesn't want to work.  Most can't, but there are those who can't find work that accommodates their disability, so taking disability payments are the only way for them to survive.  For anyone to suggest  that all people on disability just don't want to work otherwise is not only silly, but offensive.

    And they should be counted when talking about the economy because they are ignored in the equations - resources in vs. resources out. Why shouldn't there be another category in the unemployment numbers - disabled but seeking work?  It would certainly give a truer number of the unemployment situation in this country and maybe it would actually force politicians to shape policy to address these problems and maybe work harder to focus on getting more people to work.

    I'm not sure what imaginary planet you live on to assume I am "hyperventilating" about the number if people on SSDI, but I hope there are unicorns there.  I merely posted an article about a problem that I think is clearly ignored in this country - namely helping those people who WANT to work find something.

    Parent

    I didn't say you were hyperventilating. (5.00 / 3) (#177)
    by caseyOR on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 02:49:56 PM EST
    I was discussing the NPR story you had referenced. I believe that NPR, like many media outlets, is guilty of either hyperventilating themselves on this issue or of treating the hyperventilating of others as if it is fact-filled truth.

    Parent
    I'll say it... (none / 0) (#69)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 01:51:59 PM EST
    there is no shortage of people on disability who can work.  Like every system/program meant to help those who can't help themselves, the scammers will inevitably crash the party.  

    That doesn't mean we should scrap the entire system/program, we can only hope to minimize the scamming while making sure those with real disabilities are not shut out or unduly hassled/burdened.  

    Parent

    We agree!!! (none / 0) (#106)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 04:45:34 PM EST
    Show me a bloated government program and I'll show you a program filling up with scammers.

    It's natural.  Ying/Yang.   That's what our liberal friends never seem to see.   If you build it, they will come.

    Why do you rob banks?  Cause that's where the money is.

    It's not rocket science.

    The point of the NPR story if they wouldn't just come out and say it is this economy is not going anywhere with more people joining government programs then are getting jobs.

    The math simply doesn't work.   Make it a little harder to get on the dole and maybe we'll get this thing going again.

    Parent

    one of the more disgusting (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by NYShooter on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 06:56:12 PM EST
    things you've said today:

    "Make it a little harder to get on the dole and maybe we'll get this thing going again."


    Parent

    So much easier ... (5.00 / 4) (#118)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 07:12:51 PM EST
    ... to lament the "bloated government program filling up with scammers" for those born with a silver spoon/safety net.

    Economic Libertarianism at it's finest.

    Parent

    It's called reality (none / 0) (#178)
    by Slado on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 03:32:16 PM EST
    There's a reason Clinton reformed welfare.   It needed it.

    I have never said we don't need a safety net.  In fact I believe it is an essential role of government.   However it should be monitored with at least as much supervision as the tax code is.   Which IMHO is not the case these days.

    Any wonder that disability rolls are growing exponentially as are food stamps?

    We are now in year 5 of Obamanomics and quite frankly I don't think it's going so well.

    Parent

    One other thing (none / 0) (#179)
    by Slado on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 03:34:49 PM EST
    There will always be rich people.

    The choice is which system do we choose to create them.

    A free market system which can result in more rich people, a communist/socialist system that results in very few or somewhere in between.

    All systems result in there being rich people who have it better then the rest.   I choose the free market system as it is proven over time to make life better for the masses.    

    One can lament reality and strive for the impossible but I choose to make the most of it.

    To each his own.

    Parent

    There is always more than "either-or" (none / 0) (#188)
    by christinep on Sun Apr 07, 2013 at 10:45:56 PM EST
    Fella, I'm sure that you must realize there are no "pure" systems...at least, these days.  Because life & society is a wee bit more complicated than an agrarian or an early industrial society.  Just like people, systems gravitate toward a mix.

    My impression: Your overall take in many of your comments tends toward the simplistic "either-or."  In that way, one creates false choices and ignores the more historical US trend of growing incrementalism.  A bit at a time, my friend, a bit at a time.

    Parent

    Heat vs Knicks tonight (none / 0) (#50)
    by CoralGables on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:07:23 AM EST
    kdog, you're going to get the Spurs treatment tonight. Wade, James, and Chalmers are going to sit it out.

    Bummer... (none / 0) (#57)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:40:03 AM EST
    I don't wanna keep the longest current NBA win streak alive against the B-Team;)

    Parent
    I believe the B Team (none / 0) (#59)
    by CoralGables on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 11:50:09 AM EST
    which Battier nicknamed the "Fighting Clowns" on Sunday, have now been re-nicknamed by Battier to "The Expendables".

    Parent
    LOL! "The Fighting Clowns." (none / 0) (#124)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 10:36:32 PM EST
    That's like a blast from the past, because that's what my late high school baseball coach used to call us, especially after a lousy practice. And if he saw any of us hanging out together in any grouping over three outside of practice or a game, we were a designated "Clown Posse."

    He always used the term with affection, and also moonlighted as a Catholic priest. I actually preferred "Fightin' Clowns" to our school's milquetoast nickname, the Lancers.

    Parent

    Battier... (none / 0) (#141)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 09:59:10 AM EST
    may want to rethink "Expendables". The way Melo shat on him last night for Fiddy, Pat Riley might take him up on that offer! ;)  

    What a difference not having Lebron guard you makes!

    Parent

    Mark Sanford (none / 0) (#119)
    by CoralGables on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 07:45:47 PM EST
    wins the GOP primary in Charleston, SC tonight. Next up he'll take on Elizabeth Colbert Busch in the general for the open House seat in SC-1

    From our "Shiny New Object" file: (none / 0) (#123)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 10:23:00 PM EST
    Dadler, you had the right city, but the wrong school. USC Athletic Director Pat Haden has confirmed that Andy Enfield has been hired as the new Trojan men's basketball coach.

    Interesting NYT obit: (none / 0) (#152)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 04:21:19 PM EST
    One less thing to worry about (none / 0) (#165)
    by Slado on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 07:26:58 AM EST
    Maybe for David Rose, ... (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by Yman on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:13:24 PM EST
    ... or an ostrich.

    I wish I had a dollar for every time David Rose was shown to be wrong.

    Parent

    I wish I had a dollar for (2.00 / 1) (#180)
    by Slado on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 03:38:25 PM EST
    everytime GW enthusiasts move the goal posts.

    Now we're claiming its in the oceans since the land temperature data doesn't back up their claims or models.

    It's really 4th grade science were you learn that a scientific theory must stand up to criticism before you consider it fact.

    This "theroy" doesn't stand up to almost any criticism yet it is responsible for billions of dollars being used for zero purpose.   Those dollars could be spent on real problems but I forget I'm the meanie.

    Parent

    Move the goal posts? (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by sj on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 04:01:05 PM EST
    As in integrate new data?  If "goal posts" weren't moved occasionally we would still be operating under Turtles all the way down.

    Parent
    Here's my response with another link (2.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Slado on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 03:45:14 PM EST
    What do they call this in the legal world?  A battle of experts?

    No Warming

    I marvel at the assumptions one must make about the universe when one chooses to believe with 100% certainty that we can control the weather.

    Interesting indeed.

    Parent

    If we could ... (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by sj on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 03:57:49 PM EST
    ... actually control the weather, it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that we pollute our world and that has consequences.  Or do you think that polluted water and dead fish are coincidences? I marvel that anyone would think that what we are doing to this planet would have no effect.  

    By the way, you know you linked to another opinion piece, right?  And if you follow his links, you need to spin your head around a couple of times and then redact heavily in order to conclude that they are saying what he says they are saying.

    Parent

    You know, Slado, (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by NYShooter on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 06:16:35 PM EST
    I feel nothing but pity for you. I think you're a nice guy, and, as you say, your heart's in the right place, but..............

    I've spoken here before about a friend of mine, a guy I've known for 50 some years, and he might just be your, or PPJ's clone. We remain best friends because, well, let's face it, how many people can you say you've been close to for 50+ years? And, in all that time, no matter what new science, evidence, or revelations have been discovered, he hasn't changed a position he's held for all those years, not even an inch. No matter what research has unveiled, his Right Wing Masters have a response all prepared. As consensus has come around....."Slavery was a horrible institution." But, like Bjon Borg`s backhand......swish,....."Well, you know, many slaves were better off on the plantation than if they had remained in Africa."

    That's why I can only shake my head, and laugh, watching when Yman (and others) debunks your RW ricochet talking points, one after another, after another, after another.........all, to no avail. Talking with you is like talking with the Roach Motel.....reason and logic go in, and........they just die there.

    What a pity.


    Parent

    That's not what they call it (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by Yman on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:05:39 PM EST
    Since the piece you're citing is an opinion piece written by Barry Brill, a New Zealand politician.  A "battle of the experts" would be one in which actual experts (i.e. climatologists) present their data and conclusions in the form of a scientific study and make it available for peer review to be critiqued.  It's happened thousands of times on this issue.

    Guess what the actual experts have concluded ...

    BTW - Do you actually have any idea about the guys you're citing as "experts"?  David Rose (who has been debunked and embarrassed on this issue numerous times) .... seriously???

    Parent

    BTW - Here's a good piece ... (none / 0) (#187)
    by Yman on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:16:15 PM EST
    ... summarizing just some of David Rose's errors on global warming to get you started.

    Parent
    No goal posts moving here (none / 0) (#185)
    by Yman on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:54:55 PM EST
    It's about the science and what the scientific studies show.

    Those actual climatologists trump your 4th grade science.

    Parent

    Big time college sports (none / 0) (#166)
    by Slado on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:14:06 AM EST
    I still maintain they shouldn't be paid but that doesn't mean the schools aren't without their issues.

    Auburn

    Breaking Thursday News... (none / 0) (#168)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:19:57 AM EST
    everybody boycott fast food today...big walk-out planned for better pay and working conditions.

    That's been the theme of Doonesbury (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:34:06 AM EST
    since March 25; check it out here.

    Zonker - soon to be "Kevin Colorado Springs" - is currently cramming info on working conditions.

    Parent

    Holy sh*t! (none / 0) (#172)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:45:11 AM EST
    I didn't put two and two together, I've been reading Doonesbury...I guess Kevin's plan for a new career caught all my attention;)

    Parent