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Tuesday Open Thread

There was a hearing in the George Zimmerman case today. Zimmerman and his lawyers confirmed they are not seeking to have the case dismissed prior to trial based on immunity. However, Mark O'Mara said the defense may still raise immunity at trial, after all the evidence is in. More here.

I'll be at the jail the rest of the day. Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    CERN has reposted the very first Web Page (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 04:40:45 PM EST
    The story.  The 1992 html document.

    Much has changed in the ensuing twenty years.  More has not.

    Not sure that is a good link (1.67 / 6) (#3)
    by Slado on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 05:03:04 PM EST
    It doesn't mention Al Gore anywhere?

    Parent
    Perhaps if you understood... (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by unitron on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 05:51:16 PM EST
    ...that the World Wide Web is only a subset of somewhat older Internet, your confusion would be alleviated.

    Parent
    Always with the straw arguments (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Yman on Wed May 01, 2013 at 08:47:14 AM EST
    So much easier to knock down than the real ones.

    Parent
    Was that snarky insult really necessary? (4.20 / 5) (#6)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 07:24:01 PM EST
    No, I don't think it was.

    Suffice to say that former Vice President Al Gore has made for more significant contributions to the betterment of mankind and this planet than you or I ever will.

    He has a Nobel Peace Prize to show for his efforts, not to mention an Academy Award for his documentary An Inconvenient Truth. What do you have to show for yours - that is, aside from a plethora of low troll ratings?

    Now, THAT'S snark.

    Parent

    To which of us... (none / 0) (#11)
    by unitron on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 10:36:13 PM EST
    ...were you replying?

    Parent
    It sure wasn't you. (none / 0) (#13)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 10:39:14 PM EST
    ;-D

    Parent
    Betterment of mankind? (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Wed May 01, 2013 at 10:30:38 AM EST
    Now that's funny;)

    I thought Slayer's joke was funny too...may I humbly suggest lightening up in defense of dear St. Al?

    Parent

    I know you meant Slado's joke (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 11:40:42 AM EST
    I didn't tell the Gore joke.
    I actually have respect for Gore's political championing of science over the years, though I know he didn't in any way, shape, or form 'invent' the internet - but as far as I remember he never claimed to have invented it anyway.

    Parent
    Oops... (none / 0) (#39)
    by kdog on Wed May 01, 2013 at 11:55:09 AM EST
    confused my TL whipping boys, my bad;)

    I got no beef with post 2000 Al, that guy seems pretty cool if maybe a little self-righteous and alarmist.  Vice President Al and Sen. Al and Rep. Al I have major beefs with...just another moderate centrist Republican posing as a liberal till he left a postion of power...funny how common an occurence the post-power enlightenment is.
     

    Parent

    Well, I hope somebody looked at (none / 0) (#43)
    by Mr Natural on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:00:40 PM EST
    that web page.  Kinda primitive.  Hypertext was only a dream when I was a kid.

    Parent
    That was awesome Mr Natural (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:29:53 PM EST
    Yes, I looked at it, read the linked news article and even clicked on some of the links at the original page like the FAQ.

    I've seen the first .jpg on the web several times:

    First pic

    Parent

    It's wild Natural... (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:12:55 PM EST
    don't mind me, I still don't know what HTML stands for ow what to do if ctrl-Alt-Delete doesn't work, but I have as much fun with the creation as the next guy...kudos to the founders of the internet age!

    Parent
    It Reminded Me... (none / 0) (#104)
    by ScottW714 on Wed May 01, 2013 at 06:22:27 PM EST
    ...of..  was it called GeoCities, it was one of the first places you could build a web page, but you have to do it in html or have a program to convert it to html.

    I thought I was mister tech with my GeoCities page with the scrolling text across the top.  Can't remember what was on it, but I guarantee it was really stupid.  I would kill to see the page, even just a glance.

    I also remember a teaching assistant showing us the web for the first time a couple years prior to that.  It was an Urban Planning class and he was acting like it was huge revolutionary thing because he search for property values anywhere in Milwaukee.  I remember thinking, big deal.

    Then my friend, who was a programmer in the schools IT department, came over and showed me how to dial in from home to the school's server to get connected to the news groups.  I remember looking at my friend Jeff and saying something about how much was out there, that it would be impossible to every make a dent in all the data available.  There were news groups for everything, and it was hard for my brain to grasp the concept that it was nearly infinite.  I was blown away, no graphical interface, no mouse, everything was command driven.  You could download images, but you couldn't view them until they were downloaded and I believe that was at 9600 bps.  So even a low resolution picture took like 2 mins and you never really knew what you were getting until you opened it.

    Then he showed me the porn, that when it started sinking in, this is fricken revolutionary.  And not because of the porn, but because I had access to anything I wanted right there in my home, including porn, and the fact that it didn't cost a damn thing was crazy.

    Parent

    nadercrap (none / 0) (#87)
    by TeresaInPa on Wed May 01, 2013 at 04:44:51 PM EST
    Ha! (none / 0) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:32:52 PM EST
    Politicization of Science Bill by Wackjob L. Smith (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 07:21:45 PM EST
    A disgraceful anti-science bill from Lamar Smith. He has followed up with a letter to the Director of the National Science Foundation, demanding copies of peer review analyses of submitted grants. What incredible hubris from an anti-science eejit.  An excellent response from the ranking member of the Committee on Science, Space, and Technology Eddie Bernice Johnson.

    That's an excellent retort ... (none / 0) (#7)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 08:18:43 PM EST
    ... from the ranking member of the committee. Unfortunately, its multiple pages and paragraphs full of multisyllabic words will fly right over the heads of 90% of all GOP congresscritters and the kitty litter they've employed as staff.

    Now, this would probably work. At least, I know that I would feel a lot better after responding that way.

    But in all seriousness, and speaking as someone who's both written and managed many federal grants over the years, I can assure everyone here -- save for Jim and Zero and the usual suspects -- that in addition to a rather involved and detailed application process, the federal government has a built-in system of accountability which requires the submission of regular reports (at least quarterly or semiannually) from the grantee, which detail both the work completed thus far and the amount of funds spent to that point.

    Further, in most all instances, funds are reimbursed to the grantee for allowable expenses. I know of very few if any government grant programs that allow for prospective funding, i.e., cash advances prior to the commencement of the program or project.

    Lately, it's been the established policy of most federal agencies that they not be the sole source of funding for any given program or project. Therefore, most (but not all) federal grants will also require the applicant to provide matching funds from another source(s), anywhere from 10% to 50% of the projected program or project budget. Thus, if you have a $100,000 project, and the feds require a 20% match, that means you will tender a grant application request for $80,000. All matching funds must be both documented and confirmed by the expending agency, prior to the approval of any application and subsequent release of award funding.

    Finally, the feds don't simply send you a six-figure check and say, "Hey, have fun and knock yourself out." Rather, they'll set up an in-house account within the administering agency's contracting or financial division, which allows you as the applicant to draw on the awarded funds as desired and / or needed. Each report to the agency triggers a drawdown of funding, so if you fail to file a report, you don't get any money until you do.

    You must spend these funds within a three-year period from the date of the award or contract, with an option to apply for a two-year extension as necessary, the approval of which is solely at the pleasure of the administering agency. Thus, if you've lollygagged and didn't start drawing down the grant funds until Month No. 29 in a 36-month award period, it is highly unlikely that you'll be granted an extension. Any monies left over at the conclusion of the award period will lapse into the federal treasury.

    Hope that helps to clarify things a bit regarding the federal grants process. Aloha.

    Parent

    Let's see (none / 0) (#14)
    by Slayersrezo on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:39:14 PM EST
    1. I am convinced of the reality of "Global Warming", and I believe most of it is human-caused.
    2. I believe 100 percent in the fact of evolution
    3. I think the right tends to hate AGW and evolution and that most of the uneducated science-bashing clowns are on their side of the ledger, though the left has a few on its end too including those who don't want to apply evolution to human beings or who think nurture trumps nature.

    I hope you get tired of slaying that Slayer Scarecrow in your mind, Mr. Democrat All-The-Way.

    I'd like to know one thing: What's your take on NASA? C'mon, surprise me.

    Parent

    Global warming is dead. (1.67 / 6) (#19)
    by redwolf on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:25:55 AM EST
    People like Al Gore made their money off the scam and given the lack of warming I doubt there's much left to scam out of a gullible public.  In few years people will try to forget about ever supporting it.  Mark my words.

    Parent
    Your words - heh (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Yman on Wed May 01, 2013 at 08:51:04 AM EST
    No thanks - think I'll stick with the actual climatologists and their thousands of studies rather than your words.

    Parent
    But, but, but... (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by shoephone on Wed May 01, 2013 at 10:56:10 AM EST
    redwolf seems so certain. How can thousands of credentialed scientists know more on this subject than... redwolf??

    Parent
    Your words (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by lentinel on Thu May 02, 2013 at 04:46:35 AM EST
    are marked.

    Now please tell those dumb glaciers to stop their idiotic melting.

    Parent

    Nonsense. (none / 0) (#22)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed May 01, 2013 at 04:40:40 AM EST
    Dogs bark; the caravan passes.

    Parent
    You Are Correct... (none / 0) (#32)
    by ScottW714 on Wed May 01, 2013 at 10:45:53 AM EST
    ...in the sense that polluters have purchased enough politicians to ensure there is no meaningful debate & they have purchased the media to ensure we don't get the whole truth.  Also, the lunatics created such a nightmare with Iraq and the economy, to mention a few, that we actually got bigger problems than the Earth warming to the point of no return.  Yeah, Bush started started the fires, and Obama put some out, let some of them burn, and threw gas on a few.

    The good news is we can't kill the Earth, we will just disappear like dinosaurs.  De-evolution is happening, because we are so 'civilized' idiots like Lamar aren't being removed from the gene pool, like the Buffalo in Yellowstone, which is only making the entire herd week.  If only we could re-introduce the wolves to ensure the sick and weak minded genes would be removed from the population, the herd could come back stronger than ever.

    FYI, Al Gore at least made money trying to help people, and even if you don't buy it, at least he's not raping people by amassing massive fortunes from wars, pollution, exploiting dirt poor labor, and raiding the stock market.  IOW, causing people insurmountable pain for for their own personal gain.  You know those clowns Fox News thinks are shiny examples of capitalism.  

    That is why people like you don't buy it, he plays by the rules, and in this day and age, that will get you what it got Al Gore, scorn by the fools who actually believe Corporations care and Fox News isn't the press wing of the republican party.

    Parent

    what is the opposite of Nadercrap? (none / 0) (#89)
    by TeresaInPa on Wed May 01, 2013 at 04:46:56 PM EST
    you have a bad case of it.

    Parent
    I wasn't talking about global warming and climate change.

    But as long as you've raised the topic, Zero, let's see you start casting your votes in a manner that actually reflects your professed beliefs about this critical and pressing problem, rather than continue to support the very people who are retarding the scene by blocking any and all efforts in both Washington and your state capitol to address it in a meaningful way.

    Because otherwise, your statements above about global warming and climate change will continue to be rendered inherently meaningless on a near-daily basis by the Republicans for whom you've voted, and your completed ballot becomes a biennial self-mocking parody.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Donald (1.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:43:58 AM EST
    You mean the Republicans I've voted for in your deluded mind?
    The last time I voted Republican for anything was 2004 and I did so holding my nose. I voted for neither of the two corrupt oligarchic parties this year.

    Sometimes I think you must drink before you talk to me because you seem to be talking to someone else entirely.

    It's either that or the following goes on in your head: "Er, derp, derp, I don't know Slayer from a hole-in-my-head but what would it be most convenient for me to say he does or believes?"

    Parent

    Whatever, Zero. (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 02, 2013 at 04:36:35 PM EST
    Personally, I subscribe to the time-honored observation that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, etc.

    But hey, keep knocking yourself out with your ridiculous pretentions that (a) you're some ruggedly independent voter and open-minded thinker, and (b) it's all merely a coincidence that your posts on this site often read like a transcript from an AM talk-radio show.

    I'm through arguing with you. People here try to engage you on the basis of rationality and facts, and all too frequently you respond with condescension and personal insults -- that is, whenever you're not channeling Clint Eastwood debating an empty chair.

    Aloha, as in "Adios, dude."

    Parent

    Since Zimmerman was inappropriately (none / 0) (#1)
    by Juanita Moreno on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 03:56:36 PM EST
    charged with murder, and given that the evidence seems to support his claim of self defense, it makes sense to go through with the trial. If they use the Stand Your Ground law to get the case dismissed prior to trial, it would just infuriate many people who still believe the early media/public relations meme that demanded his head.

    Except of course... (none / 0) (#10)
    by unitron on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 10:34:42 PM EST
    ...SYG (more accurately the SYG provision of Florida's Justifiable Use of Force law) has nothing to do with it.

    Getting the case dismissed before trial would have involved the same thing that the Sanford PD thought kept them from arresting him on the spot, the entirely separate immunity provision of Florida's Justifiable Use of Force law.

    He might have been better off without it, if they'd arrested on the spot and he'd lawyered up immediately.

    Parent

    You guys keep missing something (none / 0) (#15)
    by Slayersrezo on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:44:23 PM EST
    He could be innocent as the day is long (meaning it really was self-defense OR that he really THOUGHT it was self-defense) and if the public isn't convinced of that than he is in trouble no matter the outcome of the trial. This way(going to trial) is as much about public relations as anything else, though its also about consolidating things to save money.
    He's financially ruined as it is, and some people will never give him a fair shake. If he wins at a trial but doesn't go for SYG (or loses SYG) that will open him up for any settlement he gets from the various news organizations to be attacked by Crump and Company. Even if they don't get a penny in the civil suit (which, surprisingly I don't think they will ) the legal fees would also hurt him and drag this horrid affair out more.

    Parent
    Don't think defendant Zimmerman (none / 0) (#16)
    by oculus on Wed May 01, 2013 at 12:30:38 AM EST
    would prefer bankruptcy to prison?

    Parent
    Oculus (none / 0) (#17)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:06:21 AM EST
    While I think it is so extremely unlikely for Zimmerman to be convicted I almost hesitate to include it as the worst case scenerio, I will say the worst outcomes for Zimmerman are in order:
    A. Murdered in prison or in public assuming he doesn't get convicted
    B. Conviction of manslaughter or second degree.
    C. Much more likely but almost as bad -this relies on not trying for SYG or losing SYG-
    Acquitted of murder, released into a hostile world where his life will be in danger for years to come and sued into poverty. If his wife goes to jail it will be even worse for him.

    Due to all the ridiculous propaganda from Trump and Co as well as some irresponsible or even corrupt reporting Zimmerman is one of the most hated criminal defendants in modern American history. He's more hated by some than the Boston Bomber defendant is, and I'd certainly say he's up there with Timothy McVeigh. The fact that quite a few people (including some good people and some bad people like racists) support him doesn't help him as much as you'd think - this case is highly polarizing and many will continue to hate him no matter what.

    The best outcome for him is a win at trial, a win at a SYG hearing and a 5 million or more settlement with some of the news orgs, because he may very well need security for years to come and its going to be hard for him to find a job, though I suspect he might find one somewhere if he is willing to change his name.


    Parent

    George Zimmerman's chance of gaining ... (none / 0) (#21)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed May 01, 2013 at 04:25:01 AM EST
    ... a judgment or settlement in any civil action filed against the media was probably rendered problematic the very moment he alighted from his vehicle with a gun in his physical possession. Once he starting pursuing Trayvon Martin on foot, he assumed some significant measure of culpability for the tragic confrontation that followed.

    By most all accounts, the deceased had really done nothing wrong to merit the defendant's suspicions and pursuit that night. That'll the elephant in the courtroom in any civil case filed by Zimmerman alleging slander or character assassination on the part of the media. Okay, the media coverage has often been excessive, speculative, dubious and over the top. So what? The media behaves like that all the time, and Zimmerman became a public figure by virtue of his notoriety, which was derived in no small part by his own actions.

    I believe that the State's Attorney overcharged in this case, because the defendant's reckless behavior that night doesn't necessarily rise to the standards required to convict him of second degree murder. Certainly, it's pretty apparent that Zimmerman didn't get out of his car with the obvious intention to shoot and kill Martin. He did, however, set in motion a rapidly cascading series of events that ultimately resulted in the shooting death of a teenager. Had he simply stayed in his car while talking to the 9-1-1 operator, none of this would've happened.

    Therefore, I think if the criminal trial runs full term, and the presiding judge grants the jury the option to consider a conviction on a lesser charge (provided that Florida criminal law allows the judge such discretion), George Zimmerman should consider himself lucky if he gains full acquittal in his criminal trial. But were I on that jury, and given my present understanding of the case, I could not in good conscience vote to convict him of murder.

    Parent

    Whether or not any of what did happen (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Anne on Wed May 01, 2013 at 09:02:28 AM EST
    would have happened if any of the actions and circumstances had been different, doesn't change what did happen - and what did happen is what would form the basis for any civil action against the media.

    Trust me when I tell you that I am no fan of George Zimmerman, and I also  believe that none of the tragic events of that night would have happened if people had made different decisions, but that doesn't absolve the media from once again manipulating and distorting the facts in order to manufacture the story they wanted to report.  

    This is not an isolated incident - we see this happening all the time; maybe if they'd get their asses dragged into court on a regular basis to answer for it, they'd make some effort to stop.


    Parent

    Agreed, Anne. (none / 0) (#111)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed May 01, 2013 at 07:34:57 PM EST
    George Zimmerman's just not the guy to do it.

    Parent
    lol (none / 0) (#24)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 08:37:16 AM EST
    What happened when Zimmerman stepped out of the truck has nothing to do with what happened when some studio decided to edit tape and play said tape on national tv.

    In short Donald you just spent lots of time saying basically nothing legally.

    However , as demonstrated by the fact that Jeralyn has repeatedly had to delete comments of yours on this case where you 'confused' your opinions with facts, you did say alot if one looks at your post as an example of political propaganda.

    Parent

    Donald you are letting your personal (none / 0) (#90)
    by TeresaInPa on Wed May 01, 2013 at 05:08:00 PM EST
    feelings get in the way of your reason.  "The death of a teenager"..... It would be nice if violence was only ever committed by adults, wouldn't it.
    If in fact TM got violent to the extent claimed by Zimmerman, there is nothing Zimmerman did up to that point that makes him in any way responsible for it.  

    Parent
    There's nothing at all emotional about it. (5.00 / 4) (#107)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed May 01, 2013 at 07:06:56 PM EST
    Were I being emotional, I'd have called for George Zimmerman to be taken down to the nearest harbor and hung from a yardarm by his genitalia.

    Instead, I said that given what I knew about the case thus far, were I on the trial jury, I could not in good conscience vote to convict him of second degree murder. How is that being unreasonable? Let me explain my rationale again.

    As far as Zimmerman's personal actions that night are concerned, it is an established fact that he alighted from his vehicle with a gun in his possession to follow Trayvon Martin. In very short order, and regardless of whether or not he realized it at the time, the defendant created the conditions by which he probably came to be perceived by the deceased as an aggressor. Thus, he instigated a tragic and unnecessary chain of events which ultimately resulted in the boy's death.

    Therefore, the primary question before us pertains to Zimmerman's personal intentions that night, i.e., did he follow Martin with malicious intent to do him personal harm. And as I said, I'm very hard pressed to see that to be the case here.

    Now, did George Zimmerman take it upon himself to act like something he obviously was not, i.e., law enforcement? Yes, he did. Did subsequent events quickly spiral out of his control? Yes, they did. During the course of those events, did he shoot and kill Trayvon Martin? Yes, he did.

    Is it reasonable to conclude that the circumstances of Martin's death constitutes second degree murder? No, it is not, because while the defendant's actions may have been reckless and irresponsible, Zimmerman did not leave his car with the idea of causing the boy harm. Self-bravado is neither motive nor intent.

    But that said, I also think it's entirely reasonable to conclude that had Zimmerman simply stayed in his car and not pursued Trayvon Martin into the condominium complex, he would not have provoked a hostile reaction from the boy for being followed without due cause (save perhaps for walking unidentified while black).

    Now, that in no way excuses what Martin did to Zimmerman, if in fact the altercation went down exactly per Zimmerman's account. But it certainly does go a long way toward explaining how the fatal confrontation ever came about in the first place.

    Trayvon Martin was simply heading back to his father's fiancée's condo that night to watch the NBA All-Star Game with his family, after going to the nearby 7-11 to buy candy and a drink. By most all accounts, there was nothing he was doing on that journey which could be reasonably construed as just cause for compelling Zimmerman to get out of his car and follow him with a gun. That the defendant apparently allowed his own worst instincts about unidentified black teenagers to dictate his initial actions was entirely by his own choice and volition.

    That's why I say Zimmerman bears no small measure of responsibility for what transpired that night, and further, that's probably why he was ultimately indicted.

    Whether or not his actions that night rise to the level of capital murder -- and as I think I've once again just demonstrated here, I don't think they do -- will now be up to both judge and jury at his trial.

    Nuf ced. Aloha.

    Parent

    The opposite may be true (1.00 / 3) (#116)
    by Isabela Hernandez on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:12:15 AM EST
    "Thus, he instigated a tragic and unnecessary chain of events which ultimately resulted in the boy's death."

    Thank god he had the gun on him. It probably saved his life.

    "... I also think it's entirely reasonable to conclude that had Zimmerman simply stayed in his car and not pursued Trayvon Martin into the condominium complex, he would not have provoked a hostile reaction from the boy for being followed without due cause (save perhaps for walking unidentified while black)."

    There are plenty of African Americans who would NEVER beat the cr@p out of someone for perceived profiling. If that's what Trayvon Martin did (go back and attack Zimmerman), if that's the kind of person that Trayvon is, then it's entirely possible that he was also up to no good that night, not just "walking while black" as you claim.

    Zimmerman could have stayed in his car, he probably wishes he had done so, but that doesn't mean he did something wrong in trying to see where Trayvon Martin had run off to. We don't know yet what Martin's behavior was that triggered Zimmerman's suspicions. If he was peering around someone's yard or into windows, I'd think he was planning to burglarize later. I might have followed him myself to tell the police where he went, especially given the number of break-ins in the neighborhood, and the high percentage of African Americans caught burglarizing that location in the prior year.

    Parent

    Isabela Hernandez, it was not ... (5.00 / 3) (#157)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 02, 2013 at 05:31:05 PM EST
    ... George Zimmerman's place to get out of his vehicle with a gun in his possession to follow Trayvon Martin on foot. He is not a law enforcement officer. That's why when the 9-1-1 operator asked Zimmerman if he were following Martin, Zimmerman was told upon answering in the affirmative that "[w]e don't need you to do that."

    Further, you are rendering a remarkably callous judgment that's based almost entirely upon a series of your own presumptions, and not established fact.

    You've presumed that Martin "[went] back and attacked Zimmerman," even though that's never been conclusively established, and we have only the defendant's word on that. As for Martin, he's dead, and conveniently for your opinions, he is no longer able to tell us his version of the story.

    You then further presume, solely on the basis of that initial presumption, that:

    "[I]f that's the kind of person that Trayvon is, then it's entirely possible that he was also up to no good that night, not just 'walking while black' as you claim."

    And thus, it's really no surprise that you opened your comment with:

    "Thank god [George Zimmerman] had the gun on him. It probably saved his life."

    Now, that may well be the case. But my argument still stands. Had Zimmerman not gotten out of his car, he would probably have never found himself in the subsequent confrontation with the deceased, and placed in a position where he felt he had to use it -- and further, he wouldn't be facing trial for capital murder.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Zimmerman did nothing that (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by TeresaInPa on Thu May 02, 2013 at 07:43:31 PM EST
    caused him to deserve to be beaten.  Being racist, if he is which is doubtful, is not illegal or threatening to TM.  Following someone at a distance is not violence.  There was no confrontation that we know of.  GZ was under no legal obligation to follow the orders of the dispatcher.  Being too eager about his role as neighborhood watch is not illegal or threatening to the point of calling for TM to feel the need to defend himself.  
    GZ did nothing to instigate getting himself beat up.  Carrying a gun is not illegal. You can't make it so because you are offended by what you see as his "racism".  

    Parent
    Hold the goal posts steady (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by Yman on Thu May 02, 2013 at 09:26:26 PM EST
    Is it whether his conduct is "threatening", "violence" or "illegal"? - because you keep switching to whichever is most convenient.

    Carrying a gun (with a permit) is not violence or illegal.  Following or pursuing someone is not, per se, violence or illegal.  But if a stranger is watching me at night while I'm walking home, then leaves his car and follows me into a pathway when I start to run away,  I sure as he// would feel threatened.  If I found out he was armed, I would feel d@mn threatened.

    Parent

    Teresa, (5.00 / 3) (#180)
    by NYShooter on Thu May 02, 2013 at 10:49:33 PM EST
    "Zimmerman did nothing that caused him to deserve to be beaten." and "GZ did nothing to instigate getting himself beat up."..........Why, because he said so? or, is that why we're having a trial?

    "There was no confrontation that we know of."..........A fight, ending with a fatal shooting isn't considered a "confrontation?"

    "Being racist, if he is which is doubtful, is not illegal..........True

    "Being racist, if he is..is not threatening to TM [?].......... Just so I have this straight, A wanna be cop, or as you call it, "Being too eager about his role as neighborhood watch," frustrated at losing sight of an "a$$hole that always gets away," gets out of his car, against the express wishes of a trained PD dispatcher, with a loaded gun in his holster, and, without explanation or announcement, follows a black young man walking home at night, and you don't consider that threatening?

    Finally, nobody here I know of called Zimmerman a "racist," or is that just your assumption?

    Teresa, this post is not up to your normally lucid and factual standards. Help me out here.

    Parent

    I must nitpick... (none / 0) (#132)
    by unitron on Thu May 02, 2013 at 02:09:58 PM EST
    "But that said, I also think it's entirely reasonable to conclude that had Zimmerman simply stayed in his car and not pursued Trayvon Martin into the condominium complex..."

    He may have "pursued" Martin within the neighborhood, but not "into", as both were already within its boundaries.

    If any evidence were to come out now that either was outside of the neighborhood when the watching and/or following and/or awareness of each other began, it would change things considerably.

    And I don't think the dwellings in that neighborhood are officially referred to as condominiums, but rather as townhomes or townhouses.

    Parent

    I'd go farther than that. (none / 0) (#133)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 02, 2013 at 02:28:03 PM EST
    pur·sue  
    pərˈso͞o
    Verb

    Follow (someone or something) to catch or attack them

    I don't think that describes GZ's action at all, I think they're better described by:

    mon·i·tor  
    ˈmänətər

    Verb

    Observe and check the progress or quality of (something) over a period of time



    Parent
    If I'm sitting in my car, watching to see (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by Anne on Thu May 02, 2013 at 02:56:50 PM EST
    where you're going, or what you're doing, I'd consider that "monitoring."

    If I have to get out of my car to do that, I'd consider that "following" - more of an active observational activity.

    Zimmerman didn't, as I recall, express any intent to pursue Martin for any purpose other than to report Martin's location, but I still think what he was doing was active enough that it departs from what I would consider to be "monitoring."

    Fun with words.

    Parent

    I'd say (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by CoralGables on Thu May 02, 2013 at 03:06:57 PM EST
    monitoring is what you might do from the confines of your house through a window. Following is what you do from your car. Chasing is what happens immediately after uttering, "these a$$holes, they always get away".

    Parent
    Yeah, well, there is that... (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by Anne on Thu May 02, 2013 at 03:18:26 PM EST
    I don't know why I kind of forgot about that little utterance.

    Maybe because I usually end up wanting to stick needles in my eyes after wading into the Zimmerman swamp.

    Parent

    And you are not (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by Zorba on Thu May 02, 2013 at 05:52:33 PM EST
    the only one who feels that way, Anne.  Needles in the eye, an acid eye-wash, whatever.   :-(

    Parent
    Ya, sort of a following that morphed into (none / 0) (#142)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 02, 2013 at 03:25:00 PM EST
    a more active chasing. Challowing?

    Parent
    nah (none / 0) (#167)
    by TeresaInPa on Thu May 02, 2013 at 07:47:01 PM EST
    chasing implies running.  This was more like "keeping an eye on".

    Parent
    One definition (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by Yman on Thu May 02, 2013 at 03:43:11 PM EST
    But the word "pursue" has several definitions, including many which do not suggest a plan to attack someone or something, including:

    • to follow
    • to chase after someone or something; to follow in pursuit.

    By Zimmerman's own account, he was not "monitoring" TM.

    Parent
    The first definition from your own link: (none / 0) (#148)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 02, 2013 at 03:57:02 PM EST
    1. to follow in order to overtake, capture, kill, etc.; chase.

    The definition I posted was the first hit on google, yours is the 4th, here are the two in between.

    #2: Free Online Dictionary:

    1. To follow in an effort to overtake or capture; chase: a fox that was pursued by hounds.

    #3: Merriam-Webster:


    1 : to follow in order to overtake, capture, kill, or defeat


    Parent
    And? (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Yman on Thu May 02, 2013 at 04:59:43 PM EST
    The order of the definition is supposed to make it more relevant?

    That's funny.

    BTW - Zimmerman never said he was "monitoring" TM.  He did acknowledge he was following him (one of the exact definitions of "pursue") and then he was looking for a street sign.  But maybe he was "monitoring the progress or quality of the street signs over a period of time"?

    Parent

    is clearly more relevant:
    2. Seek to form a sexual relationship with (someone) in a persistent way.


    Parent
    Not MY point (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by Yman on Thu May 02, 2013 at 06:33:42 PM EST
    No idea what your's was supposed to be ...

    Pursue = "to follow", either with or without attempting to capture or kill.

    Gotta run .... gotta "monitor" my street signs to see if they change over time ...

    Parent

    Good idea. (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:10:04 PM EST
    Yman: "Gotta run .... gotta 'monitor' my street signs to see if they change over time ..."

    Just be sure to take a gun with you, in case they decide to backtrack and surprise you when you're not looking.
    ;-D

    Parent

    Oops, you forgot the words "in order to" (2.00 / 1) (#163)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 02, 2013 at 07:00:41 PM EST
    between "to follow" and "capture or kill" in the definitions.

    But your attempt to rewrite the definition of the word is entertaining, and par for the Yman course...

    Parent

    Oops? (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by Yman on Thu May 02, 2013 at 09:15:52 PM EST
    I'm "rewriting" nothing - it's abbreviating.  The entire definition is there in case you're confused.  But I would attempt to deflect, too, rather than acknowledge the obvious - Zimmerman himself acknowledged following TM - a specific definition of "pursue".

    Par for the SOU course ...

    Let me know when you figure out why a definition is better simply because it occurs first in the dictionary.  I'd love to hear the "logic" behind that one ...

    Heh.

    Parent

    Fun with words, Yman style: (none / 0) (#182)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 03, 2013 at 08:01:43 PM EST
    fol·low  
    ˈfälō
    Verb

     1.   Go or come after (a person or thing proceeding ahead); move or travel behind: "she went back into the house, and Ben followed her".
     2.   Go after (someone) in order to observe or monitor.

    Yup, monitor - a specific definition of "follow".


    Parent
    Not MY style (none / 0) (#183)
    by Yman on Fri May 03, 2013 at 08:49:16 PM EST
    I gave you a definition of "pursue" which was "to follow".  You gave a definition of "follow" which was not "to monitor", but either "go or come after (a person or thing proceeding ahead); move or travel behind", or "go after (someone) in order to observe or monitor".  Now we know George followed TM because he said he did.  We don't know why he followed him.  But since a definition of "pursue" is simply "to follow" - regardless of reason - it is entirely accurate to say he pursued TM.  Not sure if he was "monitoring" the street signs.

    BTW - Still waiting to hear why the first definition in a list is more relevant.

    Nothing?

    Parent

    I'm surprised you didn't remind him, (none / 0) (#184)
    by NYShooter on Fri May 03, 2013 at 09:07:37 PM EST
    "If the facts are on your side, pound the facts into the table. If the law is on your side, pound the law into the table. If neither the facts nor the law are on your side, pound the table."

    Parent
    I concede. (none / 0) (#185)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat May 04, 2013 at 08:29:37 AM EST
    Though I still maintain that Don's use of the word is misleading.

    Pursue is commonly used to convey that capture, getting, attainment or accomplishment of something in the first person is the goal of the pursuer.

    For example, the first headlines using the word "pursue" under google news are:

    EU's Barnier calls on France to pursue economic reforms

    BHSU graduate and professional snowboarder to pursue career in snowboarding industry

    Could the Red Sox pursue a trade for Cliff Lee?

    If France pursues economic reforms, France's goal is to accomplish them.

    The BHSU grad's goal is to make living for himself in the snowboarding industry.

    If the Red Sox are pursuing a trade for Lee, their Red Sox's goal is to get Lee.

    While we all can speculate and give our personal opinions about what GZ's goal was, it has not been proven that GZ's goal was to personally, himself, capture TM.

    Did he want the police to capture TM? I would speculate yes, but imo that is stretching the definition of GZ pursuing.

    Parent

    Of course it hasn't (none / 0) (#186)
    by Yman on Sat May 04, 2013 at 09:08:00 AM EST
    While we all can speculate and give our personal opinions about what GZ's goal was, it has not been proven that GZ's goal was to personally, himself, capture TM.

    But that's the point.  "Pursue" can mean (among other things):

    1.  to follow
    2.  to follow in order to accomplish an objective
    3.  to follow in order to capture or kill.

    I don't think Donald (or anyone else) is suggesting that Zimmerman was trying to capture or kill TM when he began to follow him.  Presumably, he did have a goal or purpose after the NEN dispatcher suggested he not follow Martin, but we don't know what that was - unless one accepts the "street sign" explanation.

    Either way, the first two definitions are entirely accurate.  The third may or may not be, although I would suggest that Zimmerman's own actions and statements suggest (IMO) that - while he may not have wanted to personally capture TM - it's likely that he wanted to help the police do so.

    Parent

    Ya, I'm not saying Don's use of a word (none / 0) (#187)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat May 04, 2013 at 08:40:40 PM EST
    that commonly involves the goal of getting, achieving, capturing, etc., that very thing which is being pursued was intentionally misleading.

    Just that the common usage of that word does not accurately describe what we know of GZ's actions and intentions.

    Parent

    "Pursue" (none / 0) (#188)
    by Yman on Sat May 04, 2013 at 09:00:37 PM EST
    Commonly used to mean "follow" or "to chase after someone or something", both of which are entirely accurate and independent of GZ's intentions, whatever they were.

    Parent
    Seems more like... (none / 0) (#134)
    by kdog on Thu May 02, 2013 at 02:42:13 PM EST
    "monsue" or "puritor".  He was looking to make a collar, or more perhaps more accurately assist the authorities in making a collar since he had no authority to collar anybody.  


    Parent
    Assist-tor? (none / 0) (#135)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 02, 2013 at 02:52:17 PM EST
    Pur-moni-sist....n/t (none / 0) (#137)
    by kdog on Thu May 02, 2013 at 03:00:32 PM EST
    My bad. (none / 0) (#156)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 02, 2013 at 05:04:47 PM EST
    Chalk it up to local colloquialisms. In Hawaii, townhouses are classified as condominiums in both law and local parlance.

    For example, I'm a member of my condo board in Hawaii, even though our home is actually a 3 bdrm. / 2.5 bath, two-story townhouse, and our boards activities are governed by the Hawaii Condominium Regime Act of 1988, as amended.

    I rarely if ever hear people in the islands referring to their homes as townhouses.

    Parent

    Raise your kids right (none / 0) (#8)
    by CoralGables on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 08:50:50 PM EST
    Per the Cumberland County Coroner: (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 08:58:18 PM EST
    "Just one of those crazy accidents," White said.

    .

    Parent

    "Crazy" - heh (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Yman on Wed May 01, 2013 at 09:05:03 AM EST
    When it happens 851 times in a year - not to mention 23,000+ non-fatal accidental shootings - it makes you wonder why he considers it "crazy".

    Parent
    Not to belittle 851 accidental deaths... (none / 0) (#29)
    by kdog on Wed May 01, 2013 at 10:22:18 AM EST
    but in a nation of 311 million people that's hardly an alarming number...I woulda guessed ten times that in this gun crazy joint.

    As for armed 5 year olds...whatever happened to playing with matches?

    Parent

    How alarmed would you be if it was (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Anne on Wed May 01, 2013 at 11:57:52 AM EST
    your child or other relative who was either killed by another of your children, or by someone else's child?  

    How many more times will we have to hear that someone "just stepped out of the room for a minute" before we decide that it only takes a couple seconds to kill or seriously injure someone?  Sometimes it's a shooting, sometimes it's a drowning, or a fall, or stepping out into a busy street.  

    We can't outlaw stupid, or careless.  But that doesn't mean we can't have laws or regulations that better protect against it.  Not being a gun aficionado, I can't speak to things like trigger locks and other safety measures that, had they been required and in place, might have protected this child from harm, but I don't see how having them interferes with anyone's right to own, right to use or right to enjoy.

    What I really don't get are the parents.  I don't get how you can leave a gun around where a child can get to it, why it would have been loaded, how you can leave your child for one second with a gun nearby.  I know the gun lovers will pillory me for this, but I don't even get why you'd put a gun in the hands of a 5-year old.  "Education starts early!"  Well, yes it does, but I don't get why the education for that age group isn't, "guns are off-limits to you.  Period."

    Yes, accidents happen, but as a parent, it's your freakin' job to prevent the ones that are foreseeable.

    This family will never be the same; too many of their thoughts and conversations are going to start with "if only" for a long, long time.


    Parent

    I think it could be debated (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by CoralGables on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:14:48 PM EST
    as to whether it's appropriate to charge the parents. If I give my 16 year old a drink and he gets behind the wheel and has an accident where someone is killed, the odds are good I'm going to jail. This should be no different.

    Parent
    Sh*t... (none / 0) (#49)
    by kdog on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:21:29 PM EST
    it's not unheard of for child services to be called just for having reefer in the house...never mind deadly weapons.

    But I think the parents have already punished themselves for their negligence better than the state ever could...not a fan of piling misery on misery.

    Parent

    Alarmed ain't the word... (none / 0) (#42)
    by kdog on Wed May 01, 2013 at 12:50:34 PM EST
    I'd be devastated and blame myself forever for being so careless.  Though it can happen to the best of them...accidents will happen no matter how careful you are, it's part of life.

    If it only it were feasible to require background checks and licenses to procreate...but it ain't, nor would I trust any person or persons to make such determinations, too scary.

    Parent

    Not to procreate (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Yman on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:26:07 PM EST
    But to own a gun?  Absolutely.  It's not like leaving a loaded gun around the house is an isolated instance of a few people being stupid.  In household with guns and children, 21.7 percent stored a gun loaded, 31.5 percent stored one unlocked, and 8.3 percent stored at least one gun unlocked and loaded - and that's the number that will actually admit to doing it.

    You'll never eliminate this number entirely, but you can reduce it by requiring mandatory gun safety courses and licensing, along with criminal/civil punishments for those who refuse to follow safe gun procedures.

    Parent

    Not necessarily opposed... (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:49:19 PM EST
    as long as we take it easy on the civil/criminal penalties, thats another epidemic alltogether;)...and not make so many hoops to jump through that people just say "f*ck it" and buy a gun in an alley, defeating the whole purpose.  Still insist with enough guns and ammo already in circulation to kill every man woman child and household pet in the country, and our cultural love affair with the gun, it's gonna make a dent in the violence, but we can try it.

    As far as issues go it's not near the top of my list Yman.  I wish half this gun control effort was going towards closing Gitmo, getting the f8ck outta Afghanistan, de-rigging the economy, surrendering the war on drugs, pardoning prisoners and closing prisons, slowing the police state, ending the big-bank crime spree (see Taibbi's latest?) and numerous other issues where we can make a much bigger difference in our quality of life and/or reduce the stain on our collective soul than worrying about a gun ship that already set sail.  It's tilting at windmills to me.  All imo of course, reasonable people can disagree at what our biggest problems are and whether this is an argument worth having.

    Parent

    "Careless" has a benign quality to it (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Anne on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:59:06 PM EST
    that does a disservice to what happened.

    "Careless" is trying to carry too many things at once and dropping a glass on the floor.  "Careless" is not putting the seat down on the toilet after using it.  "Careless" is losing the ticket from the parking garage and having to pay full price.

    "Negligent" is leaving your child alone in the house with a loaded gun - even if it was "only for a minute."  "Negligent" is leaving the gun out and available even if you are in the house.

    I'm not suggesting we lock up the parents; there are ways other than incarceration for people to atone for their stupidity.  Perhaps these parents should be required to take gun safety classes and have to prove any weapons they own have safety features appropriate for a home with young children.  Maybe their license to own weapons should be suspended for some period of time.  It would be both appropriate and instructive to require them to speak to community groups about their experience and help others learn from their negligence.

    As for the whole no-one-has-to-get-a-permit-to-procreate argument, talk to me when there isn't such a strong effort to effectively force women to get permits not to procreate.


    Parent

    No argument here... (none / 0) (#60)
    by kdog on Wed May 01, 2013 at 02:05:30 PM EST
    on the last point...the default position should always be not to f8ck with people and their individual liberty, especially bodily sovereignty.

    As for these parents, they've already been handed a life sentence of unimagineable guilt.  No piling on required.

    Parent

    And speaking of the right not to procreate, (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Anne on Wed May 01, 2013 at 02:19:51 PM EST
       The Obama administration on Tuesday approved over-the-counter sales of the morning-after pill for age 15 and above, a move that contradicts a court order requiring the pill to be made available to women of all ages.

        While it fell short of that order, the administration's move represents a historic liberalization of contraception rules -- perhaps the most significant since the morning-after drug was approved 14 years ago. Today, Plan B is available to teenagers younger than 17 only with a prescription. Older women must request it from a pharmacist.

    Link.

    Sorry, WaPo - the president doesn't deserve kudos or credit for an "historic" move when his actions are not only in defiance of a court order, but represent a stingy accommodation of his own narrow, judgmental opinions about female reproductive choices.


    Parent

    Preaching to the choir again Sister... (none / 0) (#63)
    by kdog on Wed May 01, 2013 at 02:27:07 PM EST
    If it was up to me I'd scrap the entire permission slip prescription system...free people have an inalienable right to self-medicate as they see fit.  

    Certain drugs with greater potential for harm or abuse should be 18 and up...the morning after pill, akaik, has little risk of negative side effects or abuse.  Some poor 13 year old girl who gets raped shouldn't need anybody's permission to go get one, though of course it is best if there is an adult to help and turn to, but unfortunately thats not always the case.

    Parent

    hilarious (none / 0) (#65)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 02:43:41 PM EST
    I wasn't aware that 13 to 15 year olds were 'women'.

    Indeed, men (as young as 18) have went to jail for years for having consensual sex with these 'women'.

    But don't worry, I know how it works: they are women when it suits those at the Huffington Post -when it comes to aborting - and children,minors -unable to consent to sexual pleasure - when it does not.

    The younger the kid, the more the parents should have a say.

    And if someone was actually raped - as opposed to statuatory rape of a teen by a teen- then the police should be called, and nothing should be done that would hinder the investigation until said investigation is over.

    Parent

    You have a point... (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by kdog on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:05:02 PM EST
    about being mature enough to self-medicate but not being mature enough to put yourself in the position to need to self-medicate with the morning after pill.  Mother Nature and her curveballs.

    But in regards to rape, there are plenty of reasons not to call the police...such as not wanting to be victimized twice, or being raped by a cop. I don't think we should question how a person chooses to react to being a victim of a crime.  If a young women needs to ask permission to get the pill, that could well be another example of piling misery on misery.  Of course it should be strongly encouraged to seek parental or adult guidance, but not required.

    Parent

    I disagree , Kdog (none / 0) (#67)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:17:38 PM EST
    And it's not just about the ridiculousness and overbreadth of the stat rape laws.

    If you don't want to an overbearing government you have to empower the family.

    The morning after pill isn't 100 percent safe or effective. We already have child abuse laws. Why the parents shouldn't need to give their informed consent in this case, I have no clue.

    Please remember that I can cite code that puts a twelve year old boy (or more actually his parents at least at first) for child support when he was statuatorily raped. I think its an abomination; no one here cares about it.

    But I'm supposed to think a young 'woman' of 13 should be able to totally control her reproduction (which she can't even legally consent to in most states) without even having to inform her parents ? Parents are STILL RESPONSIBLE for her choices, and have responsibility to protect and provide for her?

    No.

    It's ridiculous and shows a bad kind of special pleading.

    Parent

    Gotta be careful... (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by kdog on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:28:55 PM EST
    not to play the "don't tread on me, tread on them!" game though Slayer.  Just because some rights are denied and infringed doesn't mean we shouls deny and infringe others out of little more than spite.

    I'm as creeped out and saddened by the thought of a 13 year old girl going to CVS to pop a morning after pill, but that's not a good enough reason to stop it, and there are good reasons to tolerate it reluctantly.

    Like father notification of an abortion, which I think is the right and decent thing to do absent rape or abuse..it should be encouraged but not required.  There are other better ways to discourage certain behavior than the tired ban, forbid, prohibit, punish, and/or excessively regulate.  More carrot, less stick.

    Parent

    I'm not arguing out of spite (none / 0) (#80)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 04:02:11 PM EST
    I'm arguing out of legal realities and the good of the family.

    If the parents have some responsibility they have to have some say. There's no doubt they are responsible for that girls health.

    I don't see anyone proposing to change that, and this kind of 'compassion' comes directly at the cost of family formation and coherence.

    And what I mean by that is that the more the state takes power from the family the less reason there is to have children or form a family in the first place.

    The women here should be happy with this:

    http://monogamygame.wordpress.com/2013/04/28/catastrophic-decline-of-marriage/

    Of course it starts that the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder and spreads upwards...

    Parent

    I see your point... (none / 0) (#93)
    by kdog on Wed May 01, 2013 at 05:14:54 PM EST
    I'm big on parental rights, but I may be bigger on bodily sovereignty, even for minors.  I think a 13 year old child of one of those "holy roller don't let their kids see a doctor let's pray instead" parents should have the right to get sneak off to a doctor too, nor do I think we should lock up those parents absent serious abuse/neglect.

    No easy answers man, no easy lines...maybe we should consider less legal intrusion into families...less legal intrusion period.  For lesser grotesqueries there is public shaming, education, encouragement, setting a good example.  

    As for marriage, I'm content to contribute to it's catastrophic decline...debate that with somebody else;)      

    Parent

    Resting your arguments on semantics (5.00 / 4) (#69)
    by Anne on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:23:31 PM EST
    is a distraction; the point isn't whether someone is a "woman" or not, it is whether her reproductive system has matured to where a pregnancy can occur.

    I can only imagine, based on your comment here and others you have made on this subject, what you would choose to call them.  

    As for the parents having a say, are you implying that they should have the right to refuse to allow their female child to take a medication to prevent a pregnancy?  In other words, possibly force her to have a baby?  I'm trying to come up with any scenario where that makes any kind of sense, and I can't.

    In cases of rape, of course the police should be called - but delaying the use of Plan B until an investigation is over makes no sense, either.  All that does is put the victim in a position to suffer even more.  

    I don't know what happened to you that made you so angry and anti-female, but if you're still carrying that anger around, and it is this easily triggered, I'd suggest you get some therapy; the women in your life - of there are any - would probably appreciate that.


    Parent

    After all (1.00 / 4) (#72)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:34:12 PM EST
    I could as easily retort that your anger at men (as proven via your illogical arguments when one of your feminist shibboleths is even questioned, let alone criticized)means that any men in your life would probably appreciate it if you would get mental health.

    Since we are both playing armchair psychoanalyst.

    Parent

    Now, that's hilarious... (none / 0) (#76)
    by Anne on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:43:02 PM EST
    really, that's probably the most amusing thing you've ever said here...

    Parent
    Attempting to argue (none / 0) (#71)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:30:46 PM EST
    that logical and legal consistency is 'anti-women' is hilarious. And yes, since this involves MEDICATING oneself the parents should have final say INCLUDING making her take the pregnancy to term via disallowing the risky medication.

    They are ultimately (at that age) responsible for her and any infant that might result, SHE is not.

    Do you want to change that?

    Go on, make an actual argument that doesn't rely on that doesn't rely on anti-woman self-serving slurs.

    Parent

    The parents do not own their (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by Anne on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:41:10 PM EST
    daughter's reproductive system, and that is why the parents don't have to give permission for their daughter to get a prescription for Plan B.

    Can a 12 yr old go into the pharmacy and buy aspirin?  Ibuprofen?  Acetaminophen?  Without parental consent?  Why, yes, she can.  Care to weigh in on the safety and dangers of these medications?  I'm guessing not.

    I'm not responsible for the fact that our reproductive systems mature so early, and there certainly is a disconnect between a body that's mature enough to bear a child and a brain/mind that won't be mature for a number of years, but we have to deal with what is.  

    I don't think parents should be able to force their daughter to have a baby any more than I think they should be able to force her not to.

    Parent

    I also love how (1.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 04:10:43 PM EST
    That same brain which you deem not 'developed' enough for sexual consent is developed enough to make a wise choice about pregnancy and taking potentially risky drugs.

    It's laughable.

    Parent

    You keep going on and on about (5.00 / 4) (#127)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:43:07 AM EST
    Plan B being a "potentially risky drug."

    You are just flat out making that up. Let me repeat this for you once again so that you cannot continue to plead ignorance about the risks involved in taking this medication.

    Plan B is safer than many other current OTC medicines, such as aspirin and other painkillers. While an overdose of any of these medications can have dangerous consequences, it is actually impossible to overdose on the morning-after pill.

    the FDA, after extensive review, concluded that Plan B should be sold over the counter.

    The morning after pill is not a new experimental drug. It has been available and widely used in Europe for well over a decade.

    We consistently are #1 in teen births. Our birth rate percentage is almost twice as high as the second place Poland and 5% higher than France where Plan B has been available for over a decade.

    1). United States:

    The country with the highest number of birth rate is US with 494,357 teenage births per year and with the highest birth rate percentage, i.e. 7.6%.

    Parent

    And, right on cue, the Obama administration (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by Anne on Thu May 02, 2013 at 12:04:04 PM EST
    ...filed notice late Wednesday that it will challenge a federal court decision requiring the government to make emergency contraceptives available over the counter to women of all ages.

    The move came hours after the Food and Drug Administration approved over-the-counter sales of emergency contraceptives to women 15 and older. Previously, Plan B was available to teenagers younger than 17 only with a prescription. Older women had to request it from a pharmacist.

    The Obama administration also asked the U.S. District Court of the Eastern District of New York to stay Judge Edward Korman's early-April ruling, which is set to take effect Sunday.

    [snip]

    "We are deeply disappointed that just days after President Obama proclaimed his commitment to women's reproductive rights, his administration has decided once again to deprive women of their right to obtain emergency contraception without unjustified and burdensome restrictions," Center for Reproductive Rights President Nancy Northup, whose organization represents the defendants, said in a statement.

     Link

    That's some commitment he has, isn't it?

    I especially liked this:

    The new legal challenge does not affect the FDA's decision Tuesday to make Plan B available to females 15 and older. That decision became effective as soon as it was issued.

    The Justice Department, in fact, relied on that new decision to argue that none of the federal case's plaintiffs -- who are 15 or older -- would be harmed by a court decision to delay Korman's ruling from taking effect.

    "The approval has the effect of ensuring that all of the plaintiffs in this case (including the youngest of them) now have access without a prescription and without significant point-of-sale restrictions to at least one form of emergency contraceptive containing levonorgestrel," the Justice Department argued, referring to the active ingredient in Plan B.

    I guess the harm that might result to those under 15 who are not plaintiffs is of no consequence.

    Parent

    In a Steve Colber "The Word" segment (none / 0) (#129)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 02, 2013 at 12:18:52 PM EST
    the WORD would be "sleazy" to describe Obama's tactic of changing the age to under 15.

    "The approval has the effect of ensuring that all of the plaintiffs in this case (including the youngest of them) now have access without a prescription and without significant point-of-sale restrictions to at least one form of emergency contraceptive containing levonorgestrel," the Justice Department argued, referring to the active ingredient in Plan B.


    Parent
    Apologies to Steve Colbert (none / 0) (#130)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 02, 2013 at 12:25:12 PM EST
    for dropping the "t" at the end of his name.

    Parent
    You will be happy to hear that (none / 0) (#160)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 02, 2013 at 06:06:33 PM EST
    Obama is "comfortable" with his administrations decision.

    MEXICO CITY (AP) -- President Barack Obama says he's comfortable with his administration's decision to allow over-the-counter purchases of a morning-after pill for anyone 15 and older.
    ...
    Obama, speaking at a news conference while in Mexico City, says the FDA's decision was based on "solid scientific evidence." link

    The actual "solid scientific evidence." stated

    The FDA wanted to remove any Plan B age restrictions, based on research showing that access to the morning-after pill does not increase a woman's likelihood to have unprotected sex, and that this drug is safe for use by girls as young as 11. Two studies reported that, when provided with Plan B, girls ages 11 to 17 were able to understand the package directions, and demonstrated that they could use emergency contraception safely and appropriately without the help of a physician.


    Parent
    Letting it run its course (none / 0) (#162)
    by CoralGables on Thu May 02, 2013 at 06:38:17 PM EST
    through the court system is an excellent approach. That way the final decision will be etched in stone be it all ages, 11, or 15 and removes a political hot potato from the political debate arena. While it doesn't settle things right now. it will certainly settle it for the longterm.

    The good thng from this is it's now available over the counter which is a huge step in the right direction.

    Parent

    A excellent approach would have been (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 02, 2013 at 07:31:56 PM EST
    for Obama to make policy decisions based on the science and not overrule the original decision of the FDA. Let's go over the science one more time:

    The FDA wanted to remove any Plan B age restrictions, based on research showing that access to the morning-after pill does not increase a woman's likelihood to have unprotected sex, and that this drug is safe for use by girls as young as 11. Two studies reported that, when provided with Plan B, girls ages 11 to 17 were able to understand the package directions, and demonstrated that they could use emergency contraception safely and appropriately without the help of a physician.

    IOW, there is no scientific reason to age restrict access to Plan B to 17 or 15 or to add requirements that will increase the cost of the product.

    The product will now be labeled "not for sale to those under 15 years of age proof of age required not for sale where age cannot be verified." Plan B One-Step will be packaged with a product code prompting a cashier to request and verify the customer's age. A customer who cannot provide age verification will not be able to purchase the product. In addition, Teva has arranged to have a security tag placed on all product cartons to prevent theft.

    In addition, Teva will make the product available in retail outlets with an on site pharmacy, where it generally, will be available in the family planning or female health aisles. The product will be available for sale during the retailer's normal operating hours whether the pharmacy is open or not.

    There is no reason, but disrespect and fundamental misunderstanding of what it's like to be a young teen at puberty, to keep Plan B from being made widely available without having to identify yourself and your age. What this means for teen girls 15 and 16 or those who don't have an ID is obvious.

    RHReality Check:

    ...it still requires a prescription for a subset of the population potentially in need of EC, and therefore creates a significant barrier, especially for low-income teens under 15 years of age or those without ID who "look" younger and are denied access. Emergency contraception is for emergencies. It prevents unintended pregnancy by preventing ovulation, and is therefore most effective when taken within 72 hours of unprotected intercourse (including in cases when another contraceptive method may have failed). The need to see a physician to obtain a prescription that the public health and medical communities have deemed unnecessary is both time-consuming and expensive, and will entail additional indirect costs in terms of loss of time at school and work, likely on the part of both teens and their parents.... link


    Parent
    A science decision could be overidden (none / 0) (#165)
    by CoralGables on Thu May 02, 2013 at 07:37:44 PM EST
    by the next administration. The court system won't be. It will be settled by then.

    Parent
    It would have been settled (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 02, 2013 at 07:52:45 PM EST
    if Obama had chosen not to appeal the court decision and just complied with the ruling.

    Parent
    Also it seems that you have (none / 0) (#171)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:06:14 PM EST
    ignored the fact that the Obama administration intentionally reduced the age to 15 to make it more difficult to pursue the original court case.

    The Justice Department, in fact, relied on that new decision to argue that none of the federal case's plaintiffs -- who are 15 or older -- would be harmed by a court decision to delay Korman's ruling from taking effect.

    "The approval has the effect of ensuring that all of the plaintiffs in this case (including the youngest of them) now have access without a prescription and without significant point-of-sale restrictions to at least one form of emergency contraceptive containing levonorgestrel," the Justice Department argued, referring to the active ingredient in Plan B.



    Parent
    Last week it was 17 and thru a pharmacist (none / 0) (#173)
    by CoralGables on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:25:13 PM EST
    Teva originally asked to be approved for 16. It's now at 15 and over the counter, and the court system may ultimately side with the original judge and make it available to everyone. Either way it's been great progress.

    If you want to argue for something more immediate where the court system can't be involved, argue that Plan B shouldn't cost $50.

    Parent

    Last week it was 17 and next week it would (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:58:01 PM EST
    have been over the counter without age restrictions had the Obama administration chosen to rely on the science and complied with the court order.

    Now it is 15 for those who can prove their age. So many girls 15 or older will not be able to purchase Plan B and those under 15 are just mainly out of luck. Those girls who have unwanted pregnancies between now and ultimately might disagree with you that imposing unnecessary and unscientific restrictions equals great progress.

    You mention the current cost of $50.00. Have you considered that the additional labeling, addition of a product code prompting a cashier to request and verify the customer's age and the security tag might add additional cost to the product. Getting proof of age is also extremely time consuming and adds significant cost.

     

    Parent

    No the cost won't go up (none / 0) (#177)
    by CoralGables on Thu May 02, 2013 at 09:16:47 PM EST
    Teva Pharmaceutical is more than happy to have it available OTC, and probably thrilled that it's 15 rather than the 16 they requested.

    To ease your fears here's a gift for you

    Print them out and save everyone you know ten dollars.

    Parent

    Do you have a link that backs up (5.00 / 2) (#179)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 02, 2013 at 10:25:48 PM EST
    your statement that Teva will not raise their price as a result of the additional requirements or is that just your opinion?

    BTW, if they Teva is giving away coupons worth $10 and per their website the average cost without the coupon is $45 (total ave. price with coupon $35.00) your recommendation that Plan B shouldn't cost $50. is rather unnecessary since on average it doesn't cost $50.

    Now back to the subject at hand.  

    Why Limiting Over-The-Counter Plan B To Girls Over 15 Is Still An Ineffective Policy

    But, even though the age has been lowered, maintaining an unnecessary age restriction on over-the-counter sales is still a policy that ultimately undermines women's health. Here's why the FDA's new policy is still problematic:


    • It still isn't based in science. There's no scientific reason to impose age restrictions on Plan B....
    • It imposes an additional burden on women of every age who will have to provide proof of age. When the old FDA guidelines restricted emergency contraception for those under 17, it created issues even for those who were well above the age limit.....
    • It leaves out undocumented women and potentially younger teens. Undocumented immigrant women do not necessarily have the proof of age that the FDA stipulates is required under its policy, like a driver's license, a passport, or a birth certificate.....
    ....

    The American College of Obstrecians and Gynecologists has released a statement in response to the FDA's new policy. The group of medical experts commends the FDA's attempt to expand access to emergency contraception for teens, but reiterates that "the medical evidence demonstrates that EC is safe and effective in preventing pregnancy for all reproductive-age females" and "the College strongly encourages the FDA to reaffirm its earlier decision to approve EC for unrestricted over-the-counter access."

    Also, the Obama administration intentionally reduced the age to 15 to make it more difficult to pursue the original court case.

    The Justice Department, in fact, relied on that new decision to argue that none of the federal case's plaintiffs -- who are 15 or older -- would be harmed by a court decision to delay Korman's ruling from taking effect.

    "The approval has the effect of ensuring that all of the plaintiffs in this case (including the youngest of them) now have access without a prescription and without significant point-of-sale restrictions to at least one form of emergency contraceptive containing levonorgestrel," the Justice Department argued, referring to the active ingredient in Plan B.



    Parent
    Imposes access barriers as well as cost barriers. (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 02, 2013 at 07:50:56 PM EST
    Plan B will be available to 15-year-olds, but they might need a passport to get it

    Sixteen states do not allow 15-year-olds to obtain learner's permits. A passport requires assistance from both parents.
    ...
    DA spokeswoman Stephanie Yao  said in an interview that other forms of identification would also be acceptable for obtaining the contraceptive. "A 15-year-old can use an alternative form of ID to verify their age, for example, a passport or birth certificate," Yao said. "If a 15-year-old is unable to verify their age, they will not be able to purchase Plan B One-Step."

    Now what would be your educated guess on the percentage of inter-city teens who have passports?

    Even getting a copy of your birth certificate can be time consuming (well over 72 hrs) as well as costly. Once again this has been structured so that those who could least afford to have a child will be the most likely to be denied access.

    Parent

    Well at least you tried a (none / 0) (#79)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:50:48 PM EST
    response without personal slurs.
    I wouldn't call it an argument, but it was a genuine response and for that I thank you.

    And while the girl is not 'property' of the parents (nor the State for that matter) she is a 'ward' and not an adult so no, she doesn't get to make all the decisions an adult would.

    Regardless, supposing I decide that as a matter of morality her parents don't effectively have any control whatsoever (which is NOT the same as 'own') over her reproductive tract:

    Now you just need to figure out who is responsible for that baby should the girl take it to term, who is responsible if the drug fails and causes deformaties to the infant, and who is responsible if the girl takes the drug and dies.

    Once you can answer those questions, you might have an argument.

    Parent

    I think you need to do a little more (5.00 / 6) (#92)
    by Anne on Wed May 01, 2013 at 05:13:59 PM EST
    research on emergency contraceptives, because I'm not sure you understand how they work, or how safe they are.  Plan B won't end a pregnancy and not only have there not been any reported deaths from its use, there haven't been any reported serious side effects.

    If the girl decides to have the baby, responsibility for it does not default to the grandparents; I'm sure the procedures vary from state-to-state - there may be supervision involved, but unless the mother signs away her parental rights, she is still the child's mother.

    It may well be that the female in question isn't mature enough to be out getting Plan B prescriptions, but it is her right to do so, just as, while not everyone has the maturity to own or use a weapon, it is their right to do that, too.

    I don't see how you can argue against a female's right to dominion over her reproductive life and at the same time, argue for someone else's incontrovertible right to own a firearm.


    Parent

    You didn't answer my questions (1.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 05:40:07 PM EST
    though you might have thought you were trying.

    No drug is 100 percent safe for everyone. Eventually there will be death linked to Plan B.
    This drug also works by preventing implantation. I'll leave arguments about whether that makes it an abortofacent (stopping the fertilized egg from going it's 'normal' way)or not to philosophers and merely point out that no drugs are 100 percent effective at stopping pregnancies.

    Now that we've got that out of the way, you say that 'state law' varies on this.

    Oh? Are the parents still responsible for the teen girl (unless they adopt her out or the state takes her from them) or not?

    After all, I don't think they can force adoption of her (and the unknown fathers) baby.

    If the baby is somehow born but born deformed via this drug
    and
    if the young lady involved dies who is responsible?

    Parent

    You're not getting it. (5.00 / 4) (#102)
    by Anne on Wed May 01, 2013 at 06:20:45 PM EST
    Can emergency contraceptive pills cause birth defects?

    No, emergency contraceptive pills ("morning after pills" or "day after pills") do not appear to cause any birth defects. Although no reliable studies have looked specifically at women who gave birth after using emergency contraception, strong reasons exist for concluding that emergency contraceptive pills will not harm a developing fetus.

    In the case of progestin-only pills (like Plan B One-Step, Next Choice One Dose, Next Choice or Levonorgestrel Tablets), these pills contain the same hormones as many daily birth control pills, which a number of studies have found cause no increased risk of birth defects in children born to women who continued to take them because they didn't realize they were pregnant. As a result, the United States Food and Drug Administration removed warnings about the possibility that oral contraceptives could harm a fetus several years ago. In addition, even if you don't realize you are pregnant, you would take emergency contraceptive pills long before the organs would start to develop (a process called "organogenesis"), making it extremely unlikely that emergency contraception would lead to birth defects.

    In the case of ulipristal acetate (ella), data are very limited, but suggest that the drug would not harm an existing pregnancy.

    Link

    Is emergency contraception safe?

    Yes, almost all women can use at least one type of emergency contraception. No deaths have been linked to using emergency contraceptive pills, and medical experts agree there are no situations where the risks outweigh the benefits of being able to prevent pregnancy after sex.

    You can safely use emergency contraceptive pills (the "morning after pill" or "day after pills") even if your health care provider recommends against using the birth control pill (usually that's because you are at risk of stroke, heart disease, blood clots, or other cardiovascular problems). Medical experts agree that using estrogen and progestin - the hormones found in these pills - on an emergency basis does not carry the same risks as taking oral contraceptives every day. And if your health care provider has said you should absolutely avoid estrogen, you can probably still use one of the three other types of emergency contraception: progestin-only pills (like Plan B One-Step, Next Choice One Dose, Next Choice or Levonorgestrel Tablets), ulipristal acetate (ella) or the Copper-T IUD.

    Emergency contraceptive pills ("morning after pills") have no long term or serious side effects, although you might experience some minor side effects.

    The only time all emergency contraception is "contraindicated" - meaning you should not use it - is when you know you are pregnant. Emergency contraceptive pills won't work then, and using an IUD as emergency contraception could increase your risk of infection during pregnancy. In addition, the label for ella states that breastfeeding women should not use ella, as the effects are unknown.

    While parents are responsible for their underage daughter, your comments implied that the parents would also have to take responsibility for their grandchild - the "state-to-state" reference had to do with how responsibility for the baby would be managed.

    Finally, I made no representations that morning-after contraception was 100% effective, so I'm not sure why you raise that.

    Parent

    Do you see me arguing that (none / 0) (#95)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 05:30:42 PM EST
    13 year olds should have the same rights to firearms ownership as adults?

    Much as I support "shall issue" concealed carry, have I ever recommended this for 15 year olds or younger?

    More to the point I'm mostly against new laws at this point because as far as I'm concerned :
    A. We have more than enough
    B. They haven't been shown to work for various reasons -sometimes because they aren't enforced.


    Parent

    Who is responsible if the girl is (5.00 / 6) (#103)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 01, 2013 at 06:21:36 PM EST
    denied Plan B and she dies from complications of pregnancy.

    That means each year in the U.S., about 700 women die of pregnancy-related complications and 52,000 experience emergencies such as acute renal failure, shock, respiratory distress, aneurysms and heart surgery. An additional 34,000 barely avoid death.

    Please provide me with a link to how many deaths occurred from taking Plan B. Also, please provided me with a link that plan B caused or causes deformities to an infant. Can you document any occurrences at all?

    The FDA wanted to remove any Plan B age restrictions, based on research showing that access to the morning-after pill does not increase a woman's likelihood to have unprotected sex, and that this drug is safe for use by girls as young as 11. Two studies reported that, when provided with Plan B, girls ages 11 to 17 were able to understand the package directions, and demonstrated that they could use emergency contraception safely and appropriately without the help of a physician. In fact, Plan B is safer than many other current OTC medicines, such as aspirin and other painkillers. While an overdose of any of these medications can have dangerous consequences, it is actually impossible to overdose on the morning-after pill. And any theoretical risk is far outweighed by the risk of an unplanned pregnancy in girls and young women.


    Parent
    Slayersrezo, if any woman (5.00 / 4) (#118)
    by Isabela Hernandez on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:26:42 AM EST
    or girl child is forced to carry a baby, especially if she's raped, then her parents or society has just turned her into a breeding animal. Each and every woman and girl should have the right to make the decision to keep or terminate her pregnancy. No man, no parent, no husband, no boyfriend, no one else should be the decision maker in the case of any female's pregnancy. Period.

    As a man, you're welcome to have an opinion about someone else's pregnancy. You can try to sway that person's mind. But the final decision should belong to the person who is actually pregnant. Always.

    Parent

    Playing devil's advocate (none / 0) (#101)
    by jbindc on Wed May 01, 2013 at 06:07:47 PM EST
    Can a 12 yr old go into the pharmacy and buy aspirin?  Ibuprofen?  Acetaminophen?  Without parental consent?  Why, yes, she can.

    A 12 year-old cannot go into the mall and get her ears pierced without her parents' permission.  Isn't that her body too?

    (BTW - I agree with your response, just that it's not really that black and white).

    Parent

    I think my point was that for all the (none / 0) (#105)
    by Anne on Wed May 01, 2013 at 06:24:56 PM EST
    alarm at teenagers getting Plan B over the counter, there doesn't seem to be any concern at young people getting other medications over the counter.

    I don't claim that all of our laws make sense, just trying to show that there's a lot of stuff available to kids that no one bats an eye over.

    Parent

    An interesting conundrum (none / 0) (#170)
    by coast on Thu May 02, 2013 at 07:53:12 PM EST
    The discussion around consent raises an interesting issue.  Most states have established the age of consent between 14 to 18, believing those younger than the established age are not legally competent to make decisions related to sexual activity.  However, it appears you would argue that while the woman/child isn't legally competent (according to the state) to make the decision to have sex, that person is competent to make a decision about the effects of that action.  Shouldn't the age at least agree the consent laws?

    Parent
    Right. (5.00 / 5) (#110)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 01, 2013 at 07:13:39 PM EST
    Attempting to argue (none / 0) (#71)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:30:46 PM EST
    that logical and legal consistency is 'anti-women' is hilarious. It should be obvious that logical and legal consistency are not necessarily consistently pro-women.

    As if the history of logical and legal consistency has always been pro-women.

    And yes, since this involves MEDICATING oneself the parents should have final say INCLUDING making her take the pregnancy to term via disallowing the risky medication.

    What RISKY medication? Evidence for that? And how about considering the risks of an adolescent girl taking a pregnancy to term?

    Parent

    This here is some creepy sh!t (5.00 / 7) (#109)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 01, 2013 at 07:08:49 PM EST
    I wasn't aware that 13 to 15 year olds were 'women'.

    Indeed, men (as young as 18) have went to jail for years for having consensual sex with these 'women'.

    But don't worry, I know how it works: they are women when it suits those at the Huffington Post -when it comes to aborting - and children,minors -unable to consent to sexual pleasure - when it does not.



    Parent
    I think these particular parents should (none / 0) (#68)
    by oculus on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:19:59 PM EST
    be charged with child endangerment.

    Parent
    Well, Anne (none / 0) (#45)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:13:16 PM EST
    I will state that I agree with you about the gun.
    5 year olds and such should only know one thing about guns and that is that they are dangerous and should be avoided until they are older.

    Even in the colonial days the youngest I've ever head of kids being asked to learn to hunt via shooting was 8 or thereabouts, and I honestly think that's too soon but it was probably partly necessary. Most parents who do shoot my let a kid have a b.b gun sometime in the 8 to 11 year range(depending on the parents assesment of their maturity) but the only shooting of a real firearm they'd do would be at a range strictly under parental supervision.
    Indeed, I haven't been to lots of ranges ( I've been to all of ONE in Maryland and a private range on private property in the WVA wilds) countrywide but I'm willing to bet most have age limits for kids and younger teens.

    Parent

    At that age (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by nycstray on Wed May 01, 2013 at 02:00:32 PM EST
    (also the younger 4yrs when the kid first was intro to real guns) a gun is a popular play/make believe item. From fingers to plastic replica toy guns, everything and anything they can find becomes a gun (or sword) prop for these games they make up as they go. When my nephew was a bit over 2.5yo, he was already doing make believe with guns, swords and whatever it is that Spidey does with his webby hand thing :) Saw him join in a purely make believe game in the park with various age youngins (oldest maybe 6-7yo). They were having a blast hiding behind trees, running and 'shooting', whipping out the occasional sword and rayguns (by the sounds they were making) . . .

    Not sure if any of them were really old enough to grasp the total reality of a real gun . . . or sword for that matter.


    Parent

    Sigh (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Yman on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:14:09 PM EST
    Kdog, Kdog, Kdog

    When will you ever learn?

    1.  It doesn't matter that 851 die due to accidental firearms deaths and 23,000+ are wounded (yearly) - because it's such a small number.

    2.  It doesn't matter that there are 19,000+ suicides and 11,000+ homicides (2010) every year in the Unites States.  It doesn't matter that every day in the United States, 18 children and young adults between the ages of 1 and 24 die from gun-related injuries. It doesn't matter that gun violence is the second leading cause of death in young people -- twice the number of deaths from cancer, five times the deaths from heart disease and 15 times the deaths from infections.

    3.  It doesn't matter that - among American children ages 5 to 14 - firearm suicide rates were six times higher, and death rates from unintentional firearm injuries 10 times higher, than in other high-income countries.

    The fact that many believe (including the Supreme Court) that the Second Amendment is not unconditional - that reasonable restrictions on gun ownership are one way to reduce the level of gun violence and deaths - means that these people hate America and apple pie, and they must not have ever owned or even fired a gun.  They just want to take away our God-given right to defend ourselves in whatever way we see fit!

    At least that's how some here see it.

    BTW - To be clear, that last paragraph was not directed at you, Kdog. :)

    Parent

    Y, the Last Man on Earth strikes again! (none / 0) (#50)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:23:49 PM EST
    2.It doesn't matter that there are 19,000+ suicides and 11,000+ homicides (2010) every year in the Unites States.  It doesn't matter that every day in the United States, 18 children and young adults between the ages of 1 and 24 die from gun-related injuries. It doesn't matter that gun violence is the second leading cause of death in young people -- twice the number of deaths from cancer, five times the deaths from heart disease and 15 times the deaths from infections.

    Change the subject much? Criminality has nothing to do with accidental deaths.

    3.It doesn't matter that - among American children ages 5 to 14 - firearm suicide rates were six times higher, and death rates from unintentional firearm injuries 10 times higher, than in other high-income countries.

    Which doesn't change the fact that such injuries are still extremely rare given the amount of firearms in society.

    This is like shooting fish out of a barrel.

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Yman on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:38:13 PM EST
    Change the subject much? Criminality has nothing to do with accidental deaths.

    Of course it does - they're all gun deaths/injuries.  Guns are used every day to unintentionally and intentionally kill/injure thousands every year.  Those children and people are just as injured or dead whether the shooting was accidental or intentional.

    But I understand why you'd like to pretend otherwise.

    Which doesn't change the fact that such injuries are still extremely rare given the amount of firearms in society.

    Not as "rare" as it is in other countries with stronger gun control laws - which is, of course, the point.  But I guess having 85 deaths as opposed to 851 deaths probably isn't that significant - except to the other 766 people, and (of course)  their families, friends, etc.  Not to mention the many additional thousands that are injured every year but survive their injuries.

    This is like shooting fish out (sic) of a barrel.

    Heh, heh, heh ...

    Not what you were trying to say, ...

    ... yet appropriate on so many levels ...

    Parent

    No dear Y (1.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:53:59 PM EST
    I don't know what YOU want to discuss but I was discussing the accidental death of a child and accidental gun deaths in general.

    Do try to keep on topic. If that's possible for you.

    Parent

    What I want to discuss ... (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Yman on Wed May 01, 2013 at 02:43:21 PM EST
    ... is what I addressed in my post, to which you responded.  When it comes to gun violence, injured is injured, dead is dead - whether it's intentional or unintentional.

    But when your logic is as accurate as your idioms, well ...

    Parent

    SNORT (none / 0) (#78)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:45:40 PM EST
    I responded to you because you responded to ME first(I know you are, but what am I?, and that old 'rubber glue' saying).
    And MY post was about accidental deaths by firearm.

    However, I DO thank you for admitting you wanted to change the subject.

    Parent

    Don't you get tired of ALWAYS ... (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Yman on Wed May 01, 2013 at 04:11:24 PM EST
    ... being wrong?

    My post was #28, responding to Oculus.  Kdog responded to me (#29), and then you responded to Kdog (#31).  I also responded to Kdog (#46) and then you responded to my post (#50).

    Seriously, ... being wrong all the time is no way to go through life.

    Parent

    Ok, THIS is hilarious (none / 0) (#85)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 04:33:56 PM EST
    And for the first time in literally months you made me laugh.

    So I will be uber super kind and declare you winner of this thread and Official Haver Of a Point For Once.

    Parent

    Sigh (1.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 10:44:45 AM EST
    Kdog,Kdog,Kdog:
    When will you ever learn?
    1.It doesn't matter that 851 is .0000027 percent of the population, and since there are almost as many guns as people in this country (some say there is more but I'm going with the regular numbers)which means that .0000027 percent or thereabouts of firearms are involved in an accidental death.

    2. It doesn't matter that these are accidental deaths and not deliberate deaths by bad governmental or private actors.

    The fact that this 'issue' isn't a number one priority for you , nor do you think in terms of heavily regulating guns means that you hate babies and unicorns and probably never grew up either.

    At least that's how some here see it.

    Parent

    So little room... (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Wed May 01, 2013 at 10:59:00 AM EST
    for doubt and questions and prudence and reason in so many areas Slayer. Gotta make that hay.  Like Vonnegut was on about, albeit talking about the other side of the PP coin...

    "What has allowed so many PPs to rise so high in corporations, and now in government, is that they are so decisive. They are going to do something every f*ckin' day and they are not afraid. Unlike normal people, they are never filled with doubts, for the simple reasons that they don't give a f*ck what happens next. Simply can't. Do this! Do that! Mobilize the reserves! Privatize the public schools! Attack Iraq! Cut health care! Tap everybody's telephone! Cut taxes on the rich! Build a trillion-dollar missile shield! Fuck habeas corpus and the Sierra Club and In These Times, and kiss my a$$!"

    "You're either with us or against us" isn't just a G-Dub Brand R thang.

    Parent

    Coral (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by ScottW714 on Wed May 01, 2013 at 11:15:11 AM EST
    They gave him the gun a year ago, so make it 4.  

    Four GD years old and they he him a gun, I won't even let my nephew have the Nerf bullets for his crossbow because 4 year old boys don't have a lick of sense and love doing what they aren't suppose to.

    To me, anyone that not only gives a 4 year old a gun, but then proceeds to leave it in a corner, should have his guns take ways until he understand guns aren't "Crickets for little kids".  Not only did his daughter die, his boy is certainly damaged for life.

    Parent

    They don't call it... (none / 0) (#38)
    by kdog on Wed May 01, 2013 at 11:43:22 AM EST
    the birth lottery for nuthin'...poor kids rolled crap in that game.

    Parent
    Very sad (none / 0) (#23)
    by Cylinder on Wed May 01, 2013 at 06:02:46 AM EST
    The Cricket .22 is a very good first rifle. Single shot (no magazine), bolt action, manual cocking and the right size for youth shooters. Many models have an integrated key lock.  There's no excuse for storing a firearm in an area accessible to a 5-year-old. This was my daughter's first rifle.

    The firearm should have been stored in a manner that made it inaccessible to the child, it should have been cleared before it was stored and it should have had a trigger/breach/cable lock installed before storage. A the average 5-year-old just doesn't have the maturity to rely on their own judgement and that also should be a prime consideration in the decision to teach a child firearm safety, hunting and marksmanship.

    Many gun clubs and police departments have cable or trigger locks that they will supply free-of-charge to owners with children. In a pinch, you can also easily remove the bolt itself and lock it up.

    Parent

    Kids Do Not Need Guns, Period (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by ScottW714 on Wed May 01, 2013 at 04:14:26 PM EST
    WTF, you have to be 16 to drive a car on the road because kids have no business operating machines that can kill people.

    All those safety features are nice, but it's like marketing cigarettes to kids that are thinner, and because they have less tobacco, they are somehow safer.  Seriously, kids do not need to own guns.  

    It's illegal to sell candy that resembles cigarettes, pill bottles have to have childproof tops, the rules for child seats are ridiculous, and god forbid we see a nipp1e at the Super Bowl half time show.  In Wisconsin you have to be 12, I believe, to purchase a hunting license or own a fire arm.  Yet no one has a problem with a gun companies marketing to kids with brightly colored guns.  It is not a crime to purchase a child a gun, leave it loaded where a child can get it, even when that kind of stupidity ends up killing someone.

    That is the definition of insanity.  Here kids, this will kill you in a second, so it's legal because the lunatics will not stand for common sense restriction on gun.  But those other things that may kill you or or not, an if they do, some will take years and years, so they are illegal.  A hit of marijuana and we will throw you in the slammer, but leave 50 loaded guns out before a childs bday party and we are cool even if someone dies.

    There is no legitimate reason to purchase a kid a gun.  They can't hunt, they shouldn't have access to it in case of an intruder, and they simply aren't developed enough mentally for that responsibility.  Target practice isn't a legitimate reason for a kid to own a machine designed to kill efficiently.  Guns are toys for grown-up, kids get the plastic versions that won't kill anyone.

    This guy should be punished in some way, not jail, make him take some sort of intense gun ownership class, like the class they make the DUI people take, and big fat fine, one that really hurts.  I know his daughter died, but she would not have had he thought about the decision to buy a 4 year old a gun for a mila second, or that maybe that it should not be stored in the corner with kids in the house, and there really is just no excuse for not ensure guns are not loaded in a house hold with kids.

    Parent

    Guns are not toys (1.00 / 3) (#86)
    by Slayersrezo on Wed May 01, 2013 at 04:44:05 PM EST
    They are tools.

    Learning to use a tool is part of growing up.
    Learning how to intelligently assess and take reasonable risks is also part of growing up.

    Since your basic premise was that guns are toys not tools your basic premise fails.

    You also seem to have a very modernistic conception of acceptable childhood (and teen) risks as well as a blindness to countries outside the US.

    Parent

    Chainsaws are tools too (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by nycstray on Wed May 01, 2013 at 05:08:35 PM EST
    just sayin'  :)

    Parent
    Would you buy your 5-year-old child ... (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed May 01, 2013 at 05:29:07 PM EST
    ... a hammer, jigsaw and staplegun as gifts? I should hope not.

    Scott's point about guns as "toys" was clearly a euphemism, similar to the way we often refer to a Ferrari or Harley-Davidson as a "toy" -- none of which should ever be given to minor children as gifts.

    I would categorize this very sorry story not unlike the one about that mother who hired a stripper to give her teenaged son a lap dance for his 16th birthday party -- under "WTFRUTHKNG?"

    The human brain's frontal lobes and prefrontal cortex -- where most of our cognitive functions such as complex thinking, reasoning, perception and the process of thought take place -- don't develop fully into maturity until a person reaches age 20 at least. Therefore, any expectation that your child or teenager can "intelligently assess and take reasonable risks" on his or her own is at best oftentimes problematic.

    If you as a parent want to teach your child about the proper handling of firearms and marksmanship, that's your right. But it's also entirely your responsibility to properly assess your child's maturity and emotional capacity before doing so.

    In that regard, I'd no more buy my child a rifle as a present, than I would have simply handed over to my 16-year-old daughter the keys to my car and tell her take a spin, because I felt it was high time she learned to calculate acceptable levels of personal risk.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    They're not "toys"? (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Yman on Fri May 03, 2013 at 10:13:31 AM EST
    I certainly don't think they're toys, but you may want to let the new NRA President know, so he can stop referring to them as "toys".

    Parent
    Alot of ground to cover (none / 0) (#96)
    by Cylinder on Wed May 01, 2013 at 05:38:21 PM EST
    It is not a crime to purchase a child a gun, leave it loaded where a child can get it, even when that kind of stupidity ends up killing someone.

    I'd suggest that it is potentially a crime to leave a loaded firearm accessible to a child - according to how accessible it actually is.

    A hit of marijuana and we will throw you in the slammer, but leave 50 loaded guns out before a childs bday party and we are cool even if someone dies.

    I'd also suggest that a person who leaves 50 loaded firearms out before a child's birthday party where someone is killed as a result is going to spend time in prison.

    Some of the other claims are over-broad assertions. For instance, you can't own a firearm in Wisconsin at 12 in any meaningful sense. You can't purchase one until 18, you can't possess one unattended until 14 and then only with a hunter's ed certificate and hunting license in season to and from a hunting trip or safety class.

    My daughter has grown up around firearms and will be around them for her adolescent life. After that, she will have choices. I just don't hold any confidence in the school of thought that thinks it wise to hide firearms from children. It's different is semi-rural areas where everyone has a firearm than it is in urban areas where they are relatively rare in households. That's a recipie for disaster, IMHO. Leaving your child with access to unattended firearms is as well. I also have to be confident that as she begins to go places alone that if she finds a firearm unattended or being used negligently, she'll be able to identify that and know what to do.

    I taught my daughter to shoot to teach her safety, responsibility, disclipine, self-reliance and respect for the enviornment.

    Parent

    That requires a rea; RESPECT... (none / 0) (#73)
    by Dadler on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:35:03 PM EST
    ...both for firearms and their danger AND for human beings and their mortal nature. Too many gun fanatics seems to have little of either. Most do, but, still, far too many do not.

    Parent
    REAL respect that subject should've read (none / 0) (#74)
    by Dadler on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:35:23 PM EST
    Out of all the people I know who own guns (none / 0) (#77)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:44:28 PM EST
    I would characterize only one as a "gun fanatic" and he, most definitely, respects "firearms and their danger AND for human beings and their mortal nature."

    Parent
    Most Are... (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by ScottW714 on Wed May 01, 2013 at 04:22:49 PM EST
    ...but the problem is they fight to not restrict idiots like this guy.  If someone suggested a law that would remove guns from a house in which a kid died because the owner didn't secure the gun or the ammo, the right would go ballistic.  making mad claims that the constitutions gives them the right to put other people lives in danger because of their stupidity

    I have no problem fanatics, but should their wares someone disappear, even through theft, they lose the right to own as many as they want.  A couple for home defense and over time allow more.  Like a bad driver who is forced to pay exorbitant insurance rates, sometimes it's just not their fault, but they are still responsible.

    Parent

    really means, but I would suggest that there are fanatics on both sides of this issue.

    Parent
    But... (none / 0) (#189)
    by ScottW714 on Mon May 06, 2013 at 10:18:56 AM EST
    ...they are in no way equal, one side is responsible for a lot of fricken dead people, the other side is irritating and more so to the first group.

    I can hardly translate what I wrote, but basically I could care less about fanatics so long as their guns don't disappear.  And if they do, they are held accountable by restricting future sales.

    Nothing to do with this thread, but a friend of mine had two collectable pistols kept in a safety depot box.  Like 2 years ago he got a letter asking a lot of very invasive questions about those pistols.  IMO, it was written in a way that they wanted him to prove that they weren't used in a crime.  He ignored the letter.  My point is the government is going through safety deposit boxes and taking action when they find something they don't approve of.

    Parent

    No minor child should ever ... (none / 0) (#88)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed May 01, 2013 at 04:45:16 PM EST
    ... "own" a gun. Further, a child should only be allowed to handle firearms under strict adult supervision, which is how I learned to shoot and hunt.

    My late uncle -- who was an avid hunter and sportsman -- was absolutely adamant about that. And while he was actually very liberal in many respects, political and otherwise, he took his personal responsibilities as a gun owner very seriously, and he was very strict in enforcing his rules about handling his firearms. (To the point of paranoia, I used to think back then. Ah, the folly of youth ...)

    When my uncle took us to the range or out hunting, my cousins and I were never allowed to handle or carry weapons outside the immediate presence of adults in our party, lest we forfeit the privilege to do so for the foreseeable future. (And let's face it, when you're a minor it IS a privilege to handle and shoot a gun, and not a 2nd Amendment right.) And to his infinite credit, he never left his weapons lying about so that it could potentially become an issue with any of us.

    I respect the fact that you're teaching your daughter about firearms, and you are to be commended for doing so properly. I wish more gun-owning parents would follow your example. But honestly, I hope that you also consider that .22 rifle you bought for her to be yours legally and not hers, until the day she attains the age of majority and is liable for the consequences of her own decision making.

    Parents should be wholly responsible at all times for the manner in which all firearms in their household are managed and stored. At no time should any issues involving the use or safekeeping of guns ever be left to the sole discretion of their minor children. And if that's not the law in your state as it is in ours, well, it should be.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#100)
    by Cylinder on Wed May 01, 2013 at 05:49:14 PM EST
    But honestly, I hope that you also consider that .22 rifle you bought for her to be yours legally and not hers, until the day she attains the age of majority and is liable for the consequences of her own decision making.

    Yea - an 11-year-old doesn't have any property, IMO. My daughter has been shooting for ~5 years. She has a hunter ed cert and a range saftey cert with a semi-auto endorsement. Only this year has she started drawing her own weapon (I have the key) and she know the very first time she has a violation, she loses that priviledge.

    Parent

    Cricket Firearms has taken down (none / 0) (#131)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 02, 2013 at 01:15:56 PM EST
    Jonah Goldberg, movie critic. (none / 0) (#12)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 10:38:15 PM EST
    One of the more truly moronic offerings from the Big Boy:

    Los Angeles Times | April 30, 2013
    Goldberg: Sci-fi worthy of Malthus - "In the new sci-fi movie 'Oblivion,' Earth's most precious resource is Tom Cruise. But running a close second (spoiler alert) is water. Aliens want it. All of it. [...] The first problem with this plot device is that it's pretty dumb. Hydrogen and oxygen are two of the most common elements in the universe. An alien race is savvy enough to master interstellar travel but too clueless to combine two Hs with one O to form H2O? C'mon. [...] In 'To Serve Man,' the famous 'Twilight Zone' episode, the motivation was far more plausible: They wanted to eat us ("To Serve Man" -- it's a cookbook!). And who knows -- maybe we're delicious."

    I bet Jonah Goldberg tastes like chickenhawk.

    Three more in custody in Boston Bomber case (none / 0) (#36)
    by Mr Natural on Wed May 01, 2013 at 11:20:19 AM EST
    Police in the US city of Boston have taken three additional suspects into custody in connection with the Boston Marathon bomb attacks on 15 April.

    More (none / 0) (#41)
    by Mr Natural on Wed May 01, 2013 at 12:42:35 PM EST
    Azamat Tazhayakov and Dias Kadyrbayev (none / 0) (#48)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:19:18 PM EST
    Azamat Tazhayakov (AHZ'-maht tuh-ZAYE'-uh-kov) and Dias Kadyrbayev (DYE'-us kad-uhr-BYE-ev) are charged with conspiring to obstruct justice. A third man, Robel Phillipos, is charged with making false statements to federal investigators.

    An FBI affidavit says the three men removed bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's (joh-HAHR' tsahr-NEYE'-ehv) backpack from his dorm room at the University of Massachusetts at Dartmouth three days after the bombing.

    The affidavit says Tazhayakov and Kadyrbayev agreed to get rid of it after concluding from news reports that Tsarnaev was one of the bombers.



    Parent
    (Sigh!) What a foolish move. (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed May 01, 2013 at 02:21:34 PM EST
    I can appreciate loyalty to one's friend, which can be intense in college when young students are from out of state / out of country and all they basically have is each other. But there are very serious consequences to inserting one's self so recklessly into the cascading storyline of a criminal investigation.

    Parent
    For once we are in complete agreement. (none / 0) (#106)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 01, 2013 at 06:50:23 PM EST
    I think we need a good laugh: (none / 0) (#55)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed May 01, 2013 at 01:48:40 PM EST
    Ted Cruz 2016: Low Bars Have Consequences.

    Congrats to those (none / 0) (#115)
    by jbindc on Thu May 02, 2013 at 07:31:55 AM EST
    around here (Anne, MO Blue, and some others)who predicted this 4 years ago... Penny Pritzker will be nominated for Commerce Secretary position:


    "Penny Pritzker is one of the most accomplished and highly respected women in business today," said White House official, praising the selection. "With more than 25 years of experience in the real estate, hospitality, senior living, financial services and other industries, Penny knows what it takes to build, grow, and invest in a business, and will be a strong advocate for policies that help grow the economy and create jobs."

    Pritzker made her fortune through the Hyatt Hotels company and has also served on the president's jobs council and Economic Recovery Advisory Board.



    Now about those overseas bank accounts... (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by shoephone on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:24:36 AM EST
    How many millions of dollars does she have stashed away in them, anyhow?

    Obama's very own Mitt Romney. Democrats=suckers!

    Parent

    Clarification: Penny Pritzker did NOT ... (none / 0) (#149)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 02, 2013 at 04:09:09 PM EST
    ... exactly "[make] her fortune through the Hyatt Hotels company[.]"

    Rather, Ms. Pritzker got her money the old fashioned way -- by inheriting it from her father Donald Pritzker, who had made HIS fortune as co-founder of the Hyatt Hotels chain.

    She presently serves on Hyatt's board, a post which one could be forgiven for easily assuming that she had also inherited from her father. Obviously, she will have to step down to take the job at the Commerce Dept.

    And let's be fair here. While Ms. Pritzker obviously got a leg up on the competition by virtue of her family wealth and connections, she holds a B.A. in economics from Harvard and an M.B.A. and J.D. from Stanford, is an accomplished businesswoman in her own right, and is very well known in the greater Chicago non-profit community for her generous philanthropy.

    And Pritzker has been a forceful advocate for retooling and retraining American workers to meet the needs of our 21st century economy, rather than simply laying people off in order to chase cheap labor markets overseas.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    More on Penny's career (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 02, 2013 at 04:32:52 PM EST
    o Pritzker helped run and oversee Superior Bank, which she and other investors took over in 1988. Think of it as a prequel to the financial crisis. The Times reports:

    In 1993, the bank began a strategy of concentrating on packaging subprime mortgages into securities. At first, the bank flourished. But regulators later discovered accounting irregularities that overstated the value of its assets. The bank was forced to write down huge losses, leaving it without adequate capital in the spring of 2001.

    In May 2001, Pritzker assured employees her family's wealth would be used to saved the bank, but just two months later, the bank was closed. link

    Parent
    And (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by jbindc on Thu May 02, 2013 at 04:43:02 PM EST
    More

    Pritzker's appointment shows that the administration is abandoning even a fig leaf of a relationship with labor unions -- Hyatt has had many run-ins with its work force, and Pritzker herself was deeply unpopular with the Chicago Teachers Union during her tenure on the Chicago Board of Education.

    The appointment also suggests the administration is betting that people don't care much anymore about the subprime meltdown that succeeded in bringing the world to the brink of financial ruin. Her role in the banking business may startle those not familiar with the history of the subprime meltdown.

    SNIP

    Meanwhile, in the world of  labor unions, Pritzker's enemies are legion.  

    "Penny Pritzker has a long and storied history as being an anti-labor, anti-worker kind of boss," Chicago Teachers Union president Karen Lewis said in March when Pritzker resigned her seat on the Chicago school board. "She has supported policies that have had an adverse impact on working-class families and their children. As a member of the Board of Education, she has worked to close schools, destabilize neighborhoods and disrupt the economic lives of thousands of public school employees."

    The teachers union and other critics have also taken aim at Pritzker for challenging the tax assessment on her family's mansion in Lincoln Park area of Chicago, criticizing her for trying to save 200,000 on property taxes, money that helps fund public schools.

    While on the board of Hyatt, the company was the target of attacks by the AFL-CIO for everything from worker safety to discouraging union membership to laying off workers and replacing them with more cheaply paid employees. But perhaps for fear of alienating an administration that has offered them very very little, officials from the AFL-CIO and other unions did not return calls seeking comment.

    She sounds like a real peach.

    Parent

    Thank you for the links. (none / 0) (#154)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 02, 2013 at 04:50:35 PM EST
    This is definitely worth further discussion. I am aware that she's been heavily vested in the real estate market, particularly in the Chicagoland area, but I wasn't aware before now that she was also working both sides of the fence.

    That Superior Bank's subprime mortgage activities were actually a common practice 10-15 years ago shouldn't be offered as an excuse to exempt her business activities from further public scrutiny.

    Working in the public arena as I have, I've always been a big proponent of full disclosure. However one might be criticized for certain business / financial activities, justly or otherwise, that criticism can only become louder and more intense if it's subsequently discovered that one also may have attempted to shield those activities from public view and oversight.

    This is a big deal, and Penny Pritzker needs to disclose fully her business activities to this point, and further expound on her service on the board of Superior Bank.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    The NRA Convention (none / 0) (#117)
    by CoralGables on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:15:36 AM EST
    is this Friday and Saturday.

    How much has that intelligent gathering of minds learned recently? From all appearances they are doubling down on stupid. The opening speaker is Sarah Palin and the closer is Glenn Beck.

    What's the over-under... (5.00 / 3) (#119)
    by kdog on Thu May 02, 2013 at 09:10:12 AM EST
    on accidental discharges?

    Parent
    Ha! I was wondering the same thing this (none / 0) (#120)
    by Angel on Thu May 02, 2013 at 09:47:39 AM EST
    morning.  I'll be in Las Vegas while they're convening, wonder if they're taking any bets on this.  :)

    Parent
    MGM, Wynn, Etc... (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by kdog on Thu May 02, 2013 at 10:09:28 AM EST
    are probably as scared of the NRA as our elected representation...but I'll set the lines and book your action Angel.

    Accidental Discharges Over/Under 3.5
    Accidental Shootings (Non-Fatal) Over/Under 1.5
    Accidental Shootings (Fatal) Over/Under 0.5

    Place Your Bets! Place Your Bets!

    Parent

    What's the pint spread... (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by Dadler on Thu May 02, 2013 at 10:20:14 AM EST
    ...on blood spillage?

    Parent
    Classic play Dadler! (none / 0) (#145)
    by CoralGables on Thu May 02, 2013 at 03:38:48 PM EST
    I'm game! (none / 0) (#124)
    by Angel on Thu May 02, 2013 at 10:46:06 AM EST
    As I expected he would, (5.00 / 4) (#123)
    by Anne on Thu May 02, 2013 at 10:42:09 AM EST
    Charlie Pierce weighed in on the Kentucky shooting, particularly the comments of Joe Phelps, Cumberland County Judge Executive (bolded part is mine):

    ...If your "way of life" involves handing deadly weapons to five-year olds, your way of life is completely screwed up and you should change it immediately because it is stupid and wrong. (And, again, also, too: goddammit, "learning to use and respect a gun" means at least knowing that the fking thing is loaded when it's sitting in the corner of the parlor like it's a damn umbrella stand or something, and we should talk about that part, too.) It is not in any way "normal" to hand a kindergartner a firearm. If a mother from the inner-city of, say, Philadelphia did that, and the kid subsequently shot his sister to death, Fox News never would stop yelling about the crisis in African American communities and the Culture Of Death, and rap music, too. If your culture is telling you that children who have only recently emerged from toddlerhood should have their own guns, then your culture is deadly and dangerous and that should concern you, too. If your culture demands that, in the face of a general national outrage over the killing of other children, your politics work to loosen the gun laws you have, as they apparently did in Kentucky, then your culture is making your politics stupid and wrong and you should change them, too. I do not have to understand these people any more, and it is way too early in the day to be drinking this much.

    Amen.

    Parent

    Way too sensible of an argument for some to (none / 0) (#125)
    by Angel on Thu May 02, 2013 at 10:48:30 AM EST
    comprehend.  Second Amendment, Dogdammit!

    Parent
    And in news that will make you smile, ... (none / 0) (#139)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 02, 2013 at 03:14:55 PM EST
    ... The Daily Beast (aka Newsweek) has officially fired Washington Bureau chief Howard Kurtz, after Kurtz erroneously accused the now out and proud Jason Collins in his Sports Illustrated cover story of having "downplayed one detail. He was engaged. To be married. To a woman."

    Kurtz then went on to recount how Collins' former fiancée Carolyn Moos told the online gossip site TMZ that "[it's] very emotional for me as a woman to have invested 8 years in my dream to have a husband, soul mate, and best friend in him[,]" as though that in and of itself was evidence of Collins' sin of omission.

    But unfortunately for Kurtz, he just couldn't leave it there, and had to instead conclude with a nasty personal comment which ultimately proved to only compound his initial error:

    "I'm sure it wasn't easy becoming the first male athlete in a major sports league to come out as gay. But I have to assess a foul for the incomplete nature of the disclosure. Did Collins think his longtime squeeze was just going to stay silent? Perhaps in his next interview, as he tries to get another basketball team to pick him up, Collins can tell us the rest of the story."

    Except there was one small problem with Kurtz's snarky "gotcha" post. It turns out that Collins didn't downplay the fact that he had once been engaged to a woman, a fact that was painfully obvious to anyone who read his very moving first-person SI account:

    "When I was younger I dated women. I even got engaged. I thought I had to live a certain way. I thought I needed to marry a woman and raise kids with her. I kept telling myself the sky was red, but I always knew it was blue." (Emphasis is mine.)

    The Daily Beast quickly issued a retraction and apology for Kurtz's post, and today editor Tina Brown clarified Kurtz's tenure and status at The Daily Beast with this terse nine-word sentence:

    "The Daily Beast and Howard Kurtz have parted company."

    Live by the Beltway snark, die by the Beltway snark. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

    Aloha.

    Good riddance. I can think of a lot more (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Anne on Thu May 02, 2013 at 03:23:37 PM EST
    like him who deserve to get the heave-ho.

    What a jerk.

    Parent

    I actually thought of you, Anne, and ... (none / 0) (#150)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 02, 2013 at 04:12:19 PM EST
    ... your earlier comment upthread about the need to hold a reckless media to account for their misinformation, when I composed and posted this. I knew you'd be quite pleased.

    Parent
    AR-15 at Bush International Airport in Houston... (none / 0) (#143)
    by Angel on Thu May 02, 2013 at 03:31:01 PM EST
    We'll have to wait (none / 0) (#144)
    by CoralGables on Thu May 02, 2013 at 03:36:30 PM EST
    to see if this counts towards the NRA over/under. Hard to believe you could make it inside the terminal carrying one. It is Texas though.

    Parent
    Welcome NRA Conventioneers! (1.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Angel on Thu May 02, 2013 at 03:45:40 PM EST
    That's one of the comments on the story page.  Ha!

    Parent