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Sunday George Zimmerman Thread

Eric Zorn at the Chicago Tribune, who has been following the George Zimmerman case since its inception and carefully reviewed the discovery as it became available, has a new article today, Zimmerman Trial Has All the Ingredients for a Miscarriage of Justice.

It builds upon his article about Rachel Jeantel's testimony written earlier this week, The State's Star Witness Testifies Against George Zimmerman, which is a must-read. ( In re-reading it just now, I see he has added a quote from TalkLeft, but I recommend reading it for his words, not mine.)

Once you read his article on Jeantel, you will understand why he concludes in today's article:

...if they [the presumed-guilty crowd]can just take a few steps back for perspective, my friends will see in themselves here the very police and prosecutors whom they've justly criticized in so many other instances. They will see a rush to judgment, tunnel vision and an almost desperate attempt to sidestep accumulating reasonable doubts. They will see that skepticism about the legal process is not something to be set aside when a prosecution suits your politics.

[More...]

As Eric writes in the Jeantel article, there's a pattern in the Zimmerman case that in any other case, "liberally inclined" persons would recognize as a recipe for a wrongful conviction:

  • High profile crime
  • Sympathetic victim
  • Unsympathetic defendant
  • Evidence suggesting innocence or doubt minimized or explained away with farfetched theories.
  • Evidence suggesting guilt magnified and then stitched together with conjecture, surmise and supposition.

What the state is selling contravenes the most basic principles of our criminal justice system and the Bill of Rights. As Eric writes, it boils down to this:

This was a strange, sad and confrontation that had a tragic outcome. Since you can't be sure what happened because these evolving, contradictory stories don't resolve into a clear narrative and are sometimes at odds with the known facts, you can't be sure that Zimmerman acted in self defense therefore you should find him guilty.

After a week of trial, I think the state has yet to produce reliable testimony to rebut Zimmerman's claim of self-defense. The testimony of several of its witnesses support Zimmerman's claim, as is evident from the state's attempt to impeach its own witnesses. All it seems to have is its theory, which is not proof, let alone proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Criminal trials are not designed to get to the truth of what happened. The purpose of a criminal trial is to test the state's evidence: Has the prosecution proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt. Since this is a self-defense case, the state must disprove Zimmerman's claim of self-defense by proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

No doubt next week the state will introduce George Zimmerman's statements and claim that minor variations are not only differences, but intentional lies. That's a theory, not proof. And it is a theory that is unlikely to carry the day for the state once the defense presents its evidence, or even if it chooses to forego presenting evidence and merely argue in closing, that minor variations are to be expected when recounting a traumatic experience, and it would be suspect if a person's recounts the experience exactly the same way each time.

Politics and personal views on social injustice drawn from other cases have no place in this trial. For any verdict in the Zimmerman trial to be viewed with integrity, it must be one based only on the testimony and evidence presented in court.

At least the jury is sequestered and unable to read, watch and listen to those who succumbed to the Martin family lawyers' public relations campaign early on and who continue to view the case through guilt-infused lenses.

I am not expecting a guilty verdict. I think the defense did an excellent job in choosing at least five of the six jurors, and that they will make a decision based on the evidence and the court's instructions on the law. I have doubts as to whether the second degree murder charge will even make it to the jury, despite the judge's pro-prosecution rulings to date. So far, the evidence seems woefully lacking to me.

In related case-news, I have spent the day reading new discovery the state made available to the media this week. It includes FBI transcripts of the 911 calls and Zimmerman's call, color versions with clear photos of the lab reports, gunshot wound and clothing, videos from Sam's Club, the Lakes Edge Apartments and Kohls, and revised versions of various items previously provided. I may not have much more to say before Monday.

Please read our comment rules for the site, and our comment policy for the Zimmerman case. While all points of view are allowed, comments that violate our rules are deleted when called to my attention. I've tried to delete the recent objectionable comments with personal attacks on anyone in the case and those with demonstrably incorrect statements on the facts of the case, but it's been slow going. There are a lot of comments and only so many hours in the day.

Complaints that TalkLeft allows only one point of view are misguided. The limits are in terms of how those views are expressed. Comments must be on topic. Opinions must be expressed as such, and not as undisputed truth. Racial and other personal attacks against anyone are not allowed, including those involved in the case, witnesses, family members, lawyers, other commenters here, me or Talkleft. Profanity is not allowed (use an asterisk as a substitute for some letters) and urls must be in html format because long ones skew the site. We have narrow margins.

Comment with long urls will be deleted. If you can't figure out how to do that, at least get a short url at tinyurl.com. Preview your comment to make sure you did it right. If you spent a lot of time on your comment, save it on your own computer in case it gets deleted. My intention is not to deprive you of your work, only to ensure objectionable comments and those that falsely portray the facts are not associated with this site through search engines or quotes on other sites.

Also making news this weekend, the re-emergence of Trayvon Martin's stepmother, Alicia Martin, who doesn't want to be kept in the shadows any longer. (She complained about this over a year ago, but was back on Anderson Cooper this weekend. See Ann Althouse for a recap. Here is the video of part 2 of her interview, which is by far the most dramatic and compelling. I don't think she is either acting or hamming it up. It's how she feels, justified or not. There are plenty of other sites discussing the Martin family dynamics. Even though I think the shutting out of Alicia Martin was an intentional strategy of the public relations campaign, I don't intend to write much if anything about it, unless the state calls witnesses who put the dynamics in play.

This thread is open to all facets of the George Zimmerman legal proceedings, which includes media coverage and the role of public relations campaigns. Like this one (start at 30 seconds in.) Or this one, in which Benjamin Crump is quoted as saying "We believe Trayvon Martin is dead today because he was racially profiled." (Article here.)

< Friday Open Thread | Sunday Open Thread: Non-Zimmerman Topics >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Worried (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by friendofinnocence on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:31:08 AM EST
    Although I have never thought the State could prove any crime was committed by George Zimmerman beyond a reasonable doubt, I am very concerned the jury could come back with a guilty verdict.  I know what I'm seeing in the trial, but I have no way of knowing how they are responding.  We can't even see them and guess.


    FDLE interviewing one of GZ friends (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by lily on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:46:49 AM EST
    George's friend speaks about his alleged violent history

    The rush to judgement came with a heavy dose of social pressure to demonize GZ without question.

    What were the circumstances when GZ was arrested by ABC agents? Was GZ a fighter ? Did he have a bad temper? What is the back story behind the party bouncer incident?


    Florida attorney define political railroad of GZ (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by lily on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:40:33 AM EST
    Reasonable doubt (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:07:03 AM EST
    I saw a medical person who is in charge of some kind of hospital forensics on TV Friday night, I think. According to the ME's autopsy, which he has, he said the bullet went straight through, with no angle up or down.

    I think it would be pure luck if TM was on the ground and GZ aimed at him and no angle resulted. I would think TM would be jumping up or moving since he wasn't otherwise injured.

    This Dr says the angle of the shot seems to back up GZ's claim of TM being on top of him at the time of the shot and he says there should be a reenactment of some kind to show this. Sadly, he said if the shot had been a few inches right, TM would be alive today.

    I think the two most credible witnesses, the lady on the end who heard John Good go outside and yell, and John Good, both back up what GZ said immediately to the police. The rest of the witnesses were after the fact.

    We can hate the law, but that's reasonable doubt right there I would think. I'm not sure the jury will find him not guilty for the same reasons John Good tried to stay anonymous as long as possible according to the lawyer (not to the police, to the rest of the world).

    It will be hard to find any evidence more credible than John Good. I wish someone had seen if TM really was near home (as Rachel said) and turned and went up that long walkway to the T toward GZ's truck to find GZ. We'll never know the truth for ourselves about that part.

    My summary thought, is with kdog, though. I live with CC permits here, I was married to one who had one. I don't like them, at all. But it's legal in FL and here.

    Any word on whether GZ will testify? (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:23:12 AM EST
    We do have his walk thru with Serino for his side of the story, so maybe he will not.  I frankly do not believe his 'one punch and I fell down' story.

    I'm not yet convinced that killing Martin was the only way out of his predicament.  Maybe that is not the legal standard for self defense, but much like kdog, it is my moral standard.

    I think the jury will sort it out and I will accept their decision.

    Once again I make my plea for people to stop predictimagining race riots over this case. It is a huge leap from a few people venting on twitter to riots in the streets.

    Ruffian, (none / 0) (#34)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:37:41 AM EST
    the legal TH's from "both" sides said that John Good's testimony will prevent, whatever tiny chance there was, of GZ having to testify to get a self defense instruction to the jury.

    (I think I'm one that worried in a post about bad stuff happening. I'm sorry and you're right, I saw it on Twitter, and I don't even follow anyone at the trial or related in any way. I think you're most likely right.)

    Parent

    I believe John Good's testimony (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:52:20 AM EST
    He was the closest eye witness, and it seems believable to me that   GZ was on the bottom and was the one screaming. I suspect there is a huge divergence in my personal standard of justifiable homicide and the legal standard of self-defense, and I will even say that is probably a good thing.

    The riots thing is a pet peeve of mine - I did not mean to single you out. Dave Wiegel describes what I am seeing (not at TL, but elsewhere)

    This is truly a case with no winners.

    Parent

    it's not a contest (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:05:05 PM EST
    This is not a contest, there are no winners and losers. Surely the State of Florida comes out a winner when one of its citizens avoids a wrongful conviction.


    Parent
    The people of the state of (5.00 / 2) (#161)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:56:03 PM EST
    Florida will be well-served by a fair trial, no matter what the verdict.

    Parent
    State of Florida Winner (3.25 / 4) (#135)
    by cboldt on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:36:32 PM EST
    Heh.  Bring an unjustified prosecution, put an innocent through the legal wringer, and as long as he is acquitted against the state's best arguments, the state is a winner.

    Puke.  The state is a loser, no matter the outcome of this trail.

    Parent

    Synecdoche (none / 0) (#137)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:49:24 PM EST
    I believe that Jeralyn was not referring State meaning a part that stands for the whole, but the whole meaning the people of Florida. I believe that jailing a member of the innocent person is a big loss for the state and should an innocent person be acquitted, the State (people) wins big time.

    Parent
    Either way ... (3.50 / 2) (#143)
    by cboldt on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:05:11 PM EST
    My point is that the state is a loser, no matter the outcome, if the extent of view is the outcome of the trial.  The people lost, the prosecutor lost, the courts lost.  Zimmerman should not have been subjected to this ordeal.  It is worse than waste.

    If Zimmerman is acquitted, it is a smaller loss, but it is still a loss.

    Parent

    true, very poor choice of words on my part (none / 0) (#134)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:33:01 PM EST
    Very much so Ruffian (none / 0) (#46)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:08:29 AM EST
    No winners at all.

    Ugh, I didn't read Twitter at all the two days Rachel testified. I can only imagine how bad it was.


    Parent

    Again, look into the FL real estate (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:16:25 PM EST
    marked in 2012. I know I could not sell my house now for what I owe on it, even now that the market has improved. I don't blame GZ at all for staying and trying to make it a safer community. If he had stayed in the bounds of what his neighborhood watch advisor told him to do, we would not be here.

    If I remember correctly (none / 0) (#75)
    by Aunt Polgara on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:30:53 PM EST
    I believe that the Zimmermans were renters.

    Parent
    OK, my bad! (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:45:21 PM EST
    Still I don't blame him for not moving over a few break-ins.

    Parent
    Maybe (none / 0) (#88)
    by Aunt Polgara on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:08:04 PM EST
    It was all he could afford.

    Parent
    I believe (none / 0) (#80)
    by John Shaft on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:45:34 PM EST
    G.Z. moved out of the complex shortly after the incident. And, neither G.Z. or his wife returned to their home that night but stayed w/ his friend the air marshal - who actually wrote a book about G.Z.

    Parent
    So "the problem" is NOT ... (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Yman on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:45:30 PM EST
    ... "multiculturalism" - it's simply that he was living in (according to you) a "crime riddled gated community".  Personally, I haven't seen any crime stats for Twin Lakes so I don't know if your premise is true.  But I'm glad to see you weren't blaming this on "multiculturalism" - people of different cultural backgrounds living in the same community.

    Just out of curiosity - who would perform the "very, very very careful" handpicking in your hypothetical gated community and what criteria would you use?  Would they be permitted to discriminate on the basis of, say ...

    ... race?

    Multiculturalism (5.00 / 0) (#117)
    by rob411 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:31:19 PM EST
    "The problem is NOT multiculturalism".

    I think you're missing the point. Studies apparently show that one of the tradeoffs or challenges of multiculturalism is that it tends to reduce civic participation.

    That doesn't make multiculturalism itself the problem. But you can't tackle challenges if you pretend they don't exist.

    I think McGrath is essentially mocking Zimmerman for being naive enough to believe that there were no such tradeoffs. You report suspicious characters, irrespective of race, right? Surely, nobody will call you a racist because you described a character as "he looks black" or "black male". And if you mistakenly identify a neighbor's kid as suspicious based on behavior, not race, nobody would see it as racist, right? And that kid may be annoyed but your race surely will play no part in it, right?

    It is a little depressing, I must admit, to watch how this unfolded.

    Parent

    What challenges? (5.00 / 5) (#122)
    by vicndabx on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:37:43 PM EST
    assuming someone is a criminal?  Do you walk thru the supermarket and view everyone as a shoplifter if they're not on the line to pay?

    This entire thread is a bunch of posters justifying behavior that, were it directed at them, would have a entirely different view.

    Parent

    Re: What challenges? (none / 0) (#146)
    by rob411 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:37:41 PM EST
    "What challenges? assuming someone is a criminal?  Do you walk thru the supermarket and view everyone as a shoplifter if they're not on the line to pay?"

    Did you reply to the wrong post, by any chance? Or maybe it's performance art, a brilliant illustration of the communication challenges between people.

    If so, it's a little over the top. ;-)

    Parent

    Well, I disagree (4.50 / 8) (#127)
    by vicndabx on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:58:30 PM EST
    The depraved indifference is the irresponsibility coupled w/the overzealousness of GZ.  Hence the opening statement about effin' punks that always get away.  Hence the judge allowing 911 calls that demonstrate his prior acts of profiling.

    If I'm living in FL, and I have a CC permit, that does not make me a police officer w/the right to pursue people I believe to be criminals.  That I'm a neighborhood watch person is irrelevant.  I am not law enforcement.  Indeed, as a CC permit owner, I should take care to avoid situations where I have to use my gun in the first place.  GZ, for some reason only he knows, chose not to withdraw and wait to let the police sort the matter out.

    IMO, all the arguments here presume the starting point the jury will consider will be the fight itself.  As the trial has made clear, were that the case, we would not be here debating.  Indeed, there would be no trial.  What TM did, whether he ran, confronted, whatever, is irrelevant if, as the state has argued, the indifference started long before.  The issue is whether GZ set out to catch a "criminal" - his safety be damned, consequences be damned.

    I don't have a CC permit, (none / 0) (#144)
    by Char Char Binks on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:20:47 PM EST
    and don't have a gun, so I should take even MORE care to avoid situations where I would have to use a gun.

    Parent
    I have a permit (none / 0) (#191)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:24:08 PM EST
    .

    Whenever I carry, I try ultra double plus hard to avoid situations where dropping the hammer would be required.

    .

    Parent

    vic (none / 0) (#169)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:11:55 PM EST
    IMO, all the arguments here presume the starting point the jury will consider will be the fight itself.  As the trial has made clear, were that the case, we would not be here debating.  Indeed, there would be no trial.  What TM did, whether he ran, confronted, whatever, is irrelevant if, as the state has argued, the indifference started long before

    While I agree morally with what you wrote, isn't the stuff that happened beforehand not what the jury must consider by law? Unless there is evidence GZ started the altercation, he had no requirement to retreat according to FL law, right?

    Maybe I don't understand stand your ground and duty to retreat. I thought from all I've read that they can't consider that GZ had no right to be there, because legally he did.

    That's why I couldn't be on the jury or if I were, I'd be tormented by what you said. I'd have issues getting past the prior stuff that you wrote about. But, I don't think that's the law, is it? Am I wrong? I'm asking legally, not morally.

    Parent

    Beforehand (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:20:19 PM EST
    The State must prove that Zimmerman hated criminals so much that if made him depraved with no regard for human life. That is why the profiling Martin as a criminal is so important for the State's case.

    the parts in the charge that relate to penalties for Zimmerman being the aggressor have been left out of the Jury instructions because Zimmerman is claiming self-defense.

    Pretty heavy burden on the State, imo.

    Parent

    That's right Squeaky (none / 0) (#177)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:26:03 PM EST
    I forgot about the depraved mind stuff.

    So it's left out for self-defense. It seems like most people would claim self-defense. I guess that's why the judge decides whether or not to include that.

    Parent

    Also (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:36:50 PM EST
    This exchange may explain why the State chose 2nd degree instead of manslaughter.

    Parent
    When unsympathetics collide... (3.67 / 3) (#8)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:49:32 AM EST
    George Zimmerman and the prosecutors office.

    I agree if the jury limits themselves to the evidence presented at trial, so far at least, enough reasonable doubt exists to acquit.  The victim is dead so we only have one side of the story, plus the eye/ear witnesses which are quite often flawed.

    Legal/illegal, guilty/not guilty, and morally right/wrong are all very different things.  My take on this case is legal based on FL law, therefore not guilty, but oh so morally wrong on so many levels.  

    Zimmerman's moral wrongness (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by rob411 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:13:47 PM EST
    "oh so morally wrong on so many levels."

    I feel strongly that people who believe this have a responsibility to flesh it out in some detail, WITHOUT working back from the outcome.

    Condemning Zimmerman's actions as "morally wrong" or "stupid" is likely to be the fallback position of those who were initially sure he was legally guilty (e.g. Charles Blow of NYT) and a lot of other people are liable to go along just so they can find some areas of agreement.

    For example, here's a description of Zimmerman's actions and motivations which is consistent with the evidence. Tell me which part is morally wrong. For this discussion, the correctness of my description matters only if it affects the judgement of moral wrongness.

    1. Zimmerman is going to the store with a concealed carry. From everything we know (pit-bull, gun unknown to most acquaintances etc.), he never showed any history or intention of bringing it into play.

    2. He decides to report suspicious activity as he's done many times in the past. The Neighborhood Watch guidelines take to portray reporting suspicious activity as a proactive measure, irrespective of criminal intent.

    3. From his previous phone calls, Zimmerman has repeatedly shown that he's generally very cautious and is generally afraid to even venture out or even be overheard. He's not eager for a confrontation.

    4. When Trayvon runs, Zimmerman follows from a distance, probably to tell the cops which direction he went. In previous phone calls, he's tried to direct the cops to the location the suspects were headed so the cops could get there ahead of time, so this interpretation is consistent with that. Trayvon's conversation with Dee Dee shows that Trayvon did not think Zimmerman was trying to chase him down.

    5. When Trayvon confronts Zimmerman, Zimmerman tries to de-escalate by saying "I have no problem" or "What're you talking about?". Both versions make the intent to not engage clear.

    6. Once the fight starts, Zimmerman is screaming his head off which should again have de-escalated the situation. An assailant has nothing left to prove to an opponent who's "screaming like a little girl" and the possibility of others getting involved should have triggered a flight response.

    7. Zimmerman keeps screaming for nearly a minute before using his weapon, giving plenty of opportunity for outside intervention. John Good's limited response indicated that raising the alarm wasn't going to save Zimmerman because a) John Good didn't stop Trayvon, and b) Trayvon didn't stop when John Good shouted at him to stop.

    Trayvon had to run multiple red lights for his encounter to end so tragically. Zimmerman didn't in any way create a situation such that Trayvon would pay a high price for one or two false moves.

    Parent
    Your expectations are unreasonable (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by cboldt on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:21:08 PM EST
    Even Serino succumbed to the temptation to fabricate a new rule of social conduct, in hindsight.  "Could have prevented the outcome" plays at several places.  Don't get out of the car, don't be armed, announce your concern, don't call the cops just move on, etc. etc. etc.  The permutations are numerous.

    The common thread is avoiding critical review of the victim's actions.  Armed Zimmerman is on trial, unarmed Martin is dead, how dare you question the unarmed dead child's conduct.

    Persuasion by reason is out the window.  Just roll with it, and have fun!

    Parent

    "Fun"? (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:41:06 PM EST
    How dare anyone question the (4.00 / 4) (#106)
    by MyLeftMind on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:58:36 PM EST
    dead child's actions? What if the "child" was an angry young man with a racist chip on his shoulder who deliberately returned to teach Zimmerman a lesson for "profiling" him? If that's what happened, then it is absolutely ESSENTIAL to identify, analyze, discuss and learn from Martin's mistakes so that we can teach our children not to be so foolish in the future.

    The meme promoted by the parents, the attorneys and many public figures is one that promotes even more racial animosity: small black child hunted down and murdered by big, bad white (later, White Hispanic) man. What does that potentially false scenario tell other angry, young black men?

    The fact that you refer to Martin's decisions and behaviors as the "unarmed dead child's conduct" indicates you still believe the original media meme promoted by the little boy pictures of Trayvon Martin. Personally, I accept that we might not know exactly what went down that night, but I'll teach the African American children in my family to resist being a hot-head in this kind of situation.


    Parent

    My bad - throwing generalities (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by cboldt on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:11:02 PM EST
    That post was referring to the general anti-Zimmerman tenor.  It does not take a critical look at Martin.  Martin is presumed innocent, and Zimmerman is presumed guilty (at least to the extent that killers have to justify killin').

    That's emphatically not my point of view.  I think Martin initiated use of force of violence, and that he is both morally and legally responsible for the consequences.

    Parent

    on 5., how is lying to someone that (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:32:15 PM EST
    knows you are lying an attempt to de-escalate a situation? It has never worked that way in my experience.  GZ admits Martin looked right at him and saw him following, and attempted to run away, so how is lying to him supposed to reassure him that nothing is amiss?

    IMO that is the key to the confrontation and who initiated hostilities.

    Parent

    De-escalation (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by rob411 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:06:25 PM EST
    It's not "supposed to reassure him that nothing is amiss". It does, however, convey that your opponent is backing down or not willing to press the point. It gives you plenty of room to maneuver where you want to take it next.

    Parent
    Lying (2.67 / 3) (#125)
    by Char Char Binks on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:46:18 PM EST
    Is it morally wrong to lie and tell someone who is threatening you that you don't have a problem with him?  That's thug mentality.  "You got a problem with me?" is isn't a question, it's a challenge and and threat.

    Parent
    Adopt the state's scenario (none / 0) (#96)
    by cboldt on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:33:09 PM EST
    The state has Martin screaming for aid.  Zimmerman has Martin at gunpoint or something.  He's depraved, beyond frustration, and acts without regard for human life.

    Just saying, your argument presupposes Zimmerman's narrative, and the state say that narrative is false, and the state will prove it is false, beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Zimmerman wasn't eager for a confrontation before, but he's frustrated, and ready for one on Feb 26.  He's not cautious, really, that's an act.  He's a hothead, having two run-ins with the law, once assaulting a law enforcement officer.

    I think the state signed itself up for a task that it knew was impossible, and I find this to be a improvident prosecution.  The only element that keeps it from being malicious is that Corey, like a hit man, has no personal animus against Zimmerman.

    Parent

    Adopting the state's scenario (none / 0) (#105)
    by rob411 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:56:50 PM EST
    "Your argument presupposes Zimmerman's narrative".

    cboldt, I'm not saying Zimmerman's scenario is the correct one. I'm just asking people to lay down their cards - do you think Zimmerman is "morally wrong" EVEN IF his version of events is proved to be correct?

    Unfortunately, I don't think people are making their moral judgement contingent on any particular facts, other than "Zimmerman killed a kid and, therefore, he's morally wrong".

    Parent

    Hindsight - play another outcome (3.29 / 7) (#131)
    by cboldt on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:23:13 PM EST
    A poster known as "analyst" provoked a few long winded discussion on the point of Zimmerman's moral culpability.  The issue was never resolved, but ...

    If Martin had not struck Zimmerman in the nose, and straddled him, and whatever else went on, would Zimmerman still be morally in the wrong?  If Zimmerman went back to his truck without confrontation, but still armed, was he morally in the wrong?

    What I see going on is a blatant and obnoxious blame shift.  Zimmerman being blamed for Martin's criminal action.  Any arguable minor error in Zimmerman judgment (and I don't see any) is blown up, in hindsight, to manslaughter; and anything Martin did is blown off as a reasonable reaction.

    I think Martin defenders are nuts, in a nutshell.

    Parent

    opening arg (none / 0) (#181)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:34:36 PM EST
    The state did not claim in opening statement, so far as I can recall, that it was TM who was screaming . .. .  They seem to be leaving that ambiguous, and the defense says squarely that Z was screaming.

    Parent
    kdog, we are here to discuss the legal case (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:45:08 PM EST
    not views of personal morality. Please stick to legal and illegal, not right or wrong. This is not a free for all. It is an open thread for the legal aspects of the case.

    Parent
    I am struggling to find what GZ did that (3.67 / 3) (#17)
    by leftwig on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:11:09 AM EST
    was morally wrong.  I know there are things we can surmise that he might have done that would be considered morally wrong, but just strictly speaking from evidence available, I don't see any action that I object to on a moral basis.

    Parent
    Put yourself in Trayvon's shoes... (3.25 / 4) (#20)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:41:01 AM EST
    for a second, if you will.  Walking home from the store, you see this dude hawking and tailing you acting strange.  And if the police arrived before the altercation, you would have to deal with the police all up in your business, which is no fun for anybody much less black male youths.  It's wishing and providing ill will on your neighbor.

    Still struggling to see how uncool and wrong that is to do to somebody?  

    And that's not even getting into bringing your gun to run errands, neighborhood dogs or no dogs.  Do you do that?  I mean I can live with that provided you don't shoot people and know how to handle it, and I know it's legal in FL, but it still creeps me the f*ck out.

    Parent

    Put yourself in Zimmerman's shoes (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by cboldt on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:22:29 AM EST
    What's up with coldcocking somebody?  Is that all peace, peaches and cream in your neighborhood?  The evidence is that the busybody was frustrated, and Martin had time to make himself invisible to any police presence that may have arrived on scene.

    From your posts, I gather that you think beating a person for being "a jerk" is a-ok, IOW, is not providing ill will.

    Where I come from, people who choose to use force of violence are dealt with, with force of violence.  No need for police, we'd rather they not become involved.

    Parent

    While I can understand how TM may (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by leftwig on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:09:49 PM EST
    have felt about a person he didn't know following him in a car, that doesn't change the point that I don't see that GZ did anything morally wrong.  He saw someone walking in the rain, in the dark, with a concealed identity and next to a house he knew wasn't his.  That looked suspicious to him and the police encouraged citizens in the area to call in if they noticed something suspicious (the officer on the stand made the point that this was an example of something that they encouraged to  call in).  I see nothing morally wrong with that and have called in suspicious people myself, once leading to an arrest of people stealing building supplies.  

    I currently do not take my gun to the store with me, but will be soon, once I have my CCW.  Its an entirely lawful activity and I see nothing morally wrong with it.  

    I think its possible GZ did something morally wrong after hanging up with police and once meeting face to face with TM.  I just haven't seen any evidence that would confirm it.  

    Parent

    A more concise version. (none / 0) (#92)
    by rob411 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:20:04 PM EST
    of what I was trying to say. :-)

    Parent
    Uncool and wrong? (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by rob411 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:47:20 PM EST
    "Still struggling to see how uncool and wrong that is to do to somebody?"

    Neighborhood Watch tries hard to prevent your "uncool and wrong" situation.

    1. The volunteer meets his neighbors so that he wouldn't target an innocent neighbor in such an "uncool and wrong" way.

    2. It's done on private property where it's at least reasonable for a stranger to expect some scrutiny.

    3. Getting to know your neighbors should also minimize the chance that you'll unknowingly target as suspicious activities which are normal for your neighbor or his friends.

    If you insist that none of this context matters in judging whether an action is "uncool and wrong", fine. But you've effectively made "keep your head down and don't get involved" the only sensible option.


    Parent
    I've been in those shoes before. (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by cazinger on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:32:42 PM EST
    I can remember when I was young, I was to meet up with a friend at their parents place - a neighborhood I had never been to before.  I did not know my way around, so I kind of wandered a little bit, trying to find my way.  

    A resident of the area approached me and asked me what I was doing there.  He told me he had watched me for some time, and that he had already called the police and they were on their way.  

    I explained that I was trying to find my friend's home (actually I was in high school at the time, so it was technically his parent's place), and that I was a little lost.  The resident said he didn't want to hear it and I could tell it to the police.  I said "fine".  

    I waited for the police, explained the situation to them.  They asked me what the address was I was looking for.  I gave them the address and they helped me find the place.  They talked briefly with my friend's parents to make sure everything was okay, and then they left.

    The thought of physically attacking the resident never occurred to me - even after he had told me that he had called the police.

    This resident:

    • watched me,
    • left his home to follow me,
    • approached me,
    • confronted me,
    • called the police on me.

    Though I never bothered to ask, for all I know, the man was armed.

    Remind me again, what exactly did GZ do that was so wrong that he deserved to be physically attacked?

    Parent

    Sounds like you were clear about the (3.67 / 3) (#151)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:08:24 PM EST
    resident's intent from the time you noticed him, correct?  So it is not exactly the same situation.  What that resident did is exactly what I wish GZ had done from the start, from the safety of his truck if he preferred.  

    Parent
    What was clear to me (5.00 / 3) (#176)
    by cazinger on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:25:55 PM EST
    What was clear to me was that what I was doing COULD be perceived as suspicious by some.  So instead of getting all upset by it, simply explaining my presence completely defused the situation.  I didn't HAVE to.  I had every RIGHT to be where I was.  I had every RIGHT to be looking around like I was.  But I also recognized that the gentleman who had been watching me also had every RIGHT to be concerned.  He had every RIGHT to call the police.

    I never felt the need to physically assault and beat the heck out of the guy who had watched me.

    I repeat, I NEVER felt the need to PHYSICALLY ASSAULT and BEAT THE HECK out of the guy who simply watched me.

    Parent

    How do you know (none / 0) (#21)
    by jbindc on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:48:39 AM EST
    Walking home from the store, you see this dude hawking and tailing you acting strange.

    Any of this?

    Parent

    Isn't that what... (5.00 / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:54:02 AM EST
    George has himself admitted to? And we know from Jenteal that Trayvon saw George hawking and tailing him.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#55)
    by jbindc on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:44:23 AM EST
    But you were "putting yourself in Trayvon's shoes"?

    Walking home from the store, you see this dude hawking and tailing you acting strange.

    WAS GZ "acting strange"?

    Parent

    Yes - if most of the people you encounter (5.00 / 4) (#66)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:14:02 PM EST
    on a walk home from the store do not look like the are following you, the GZ was acting strange.

    Parent
    You cannot be that obtuse (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by vicndabx on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:09:13 PM EST
    Let me follow a few women home a night and see what happens.

    Parent
    follow a woman (1.00 / 2) (#116)
    by Char Char Binks on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:19:29 PM EST
    Does that make a difference?  If so, then it's irrelevant, because I'm pretty sure TM wasn't a woman.

    Parent
    The $25,000 Challenge (none / 0) (#27)
    by RickyJim on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:21:30 AM EST
    In May, someone using the handle analyst1961 gave the challenge:
    "If anyone would like to present an argument, or arguments, that changes my conclusion regarding GZ's moral sine qua non in the current legal case, I'll gladly contribute $25,000 to his defense fund before the end of this week."  Diwataman had a nice thread on it.

    Parent
    So the problem is multiculturalism? (3.50 / 2) (#19)
    by Yman on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:24:30 AM EST
    Better to move to Copenhagen or Des Moines?  This is "a nasty preview of what the near future holds for the US"?

    Wow.

    Just ... "wow".

    Parent

    moral quagmire (3.00 / 2) (#22)
    by woodchuck64 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:49:49 AM EST
    If you have a clear way to show Zimmerman's actions were immoral without invoking the outcome, I'd like to see it.  It seems to me many NW act similarly and become heroes to their communities when their actions result in arrests.  Outcome alone doesn't seem to provide a moral guide here.

    As for Zimmerman carrying a gun, I do personally blame this incident entirely on gun laws since I believe the ability to effortlessly deal death should only be the right of highly trained, psychologically trained individuals.  

    But Zimmerman was clearly not trained properly for this particular risk of carrying a gun: a temporary panic turns into a false fear for your life which leads you kill an innocent person; so it seems hard to hold him morally culpable.


    Parent

    Innocent person? (5.00 / 4) (#41)
    by labrat on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:50:29 AM EST
    Once you choose to double back and attack that "creepy a$$ cracka", you cease to be "innocent".

    Parent
    Is there (none / 0) (#45)
    by John Shaft on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:08:04 AM EST
    evidence to support that T.M. doubled back?

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by Mojo56 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:45:24 AM EST
    If you run past point A and then 2 minutes later return to point A then by definition you have 'doubled back'. You can use 'returned' if it makes you feel better.

    Parent
    zimmerman (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by morphic on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:09:46 PM EST
       Yes. In DD's testimony, she has Trayvon by his father's house. The phone disconnects, twenty seconds  later it reconnects,another two minutes, and the confrontation begins.

    Parent
    Is there (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by John Shaft on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:15:21 PM EST
    any real evidence other then her testimony that has him doubling back? I believe he stated he was close to home, exactly where he was has never been established.

    Parent
    I am only going to try this once (5.00 / 3) (#82)
    by labrat on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:49:27 PM EST
    Try to look at the evidence we have at hand.

    GZ in in his car talking to NEN when TM circles his car and past it and runs toward the "T".

    You hear the ding of GZ getting out of his car and the "we don't need you to do that - OK" part of the tape.

    Think of the complex map. If by that point GZ is near or at the "T" and it is pitch black out (as noted in the pics shown at trial) then TM is out of sight and either at or near Brandi's house.

    GZ continues to talk to NEN for a considerable time before he hangs up. If he continued to follow TM - would he not be pretty far down the "T" by then? How in the world would he catch up to TM if TM was running and GZ was chatting with Sean?

    The fight and shooting took place near the "T". Why was TM anywhere near that location if he was scared of a "creepy ass cracka" that was following him?

    Either he hid near the "T". No evidence of that - especially if you give any credence at all to the RJ testimony, or .....

    he headed back.

    I'm open to any other logical explanation - but I've yet to hear one.

    Parent

    Martin is out of Zimmerman's sight for (5.00 / 3) (#165)
    by Tamta on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:14:32 PM EST
    2 minutes, and ends up ONLY 400 ft away (not including the lead he has on Zimmerman) by the time of the confrontation? Two minutes is a long time to go only 400 ft- I make better time with my toddlers in a double stroller carrying Trader Joe's bags while answering endless questions.  Martin could have been home and inside by that time and with that lead, but he was not. It probably took Martin about 19 seconds to get back to Green's place, using the disconnected/rec-connected calls to DeeDee to figure.

    Dee Dee AND Brandy Green have both attested to Zimmerman having been 'by' her townhouse.

    It was extremely dark. Zimmerman had a flashlight on. Martin could get sight of  Zimmerman, but Zimmerman could not see Martin unless Martin was at least 20 feet or closer to Zimmerman (witness 6 could barely see them at 20 feet).

    DeeDee says that Martin initiated contact with Zimmerman.

    Unless Martin was off his kite and wandering in aimless circles enjoying the rain on his face, which the State's witness DeeDee says he was not at that time, I just do not see evidence that makes this look like anything other than Martin circling back. It does not appear like a chance meeting or pursuit by Zimmerman. It really appears that Martin used his time and lead on Zimmerman to not get home and get safely inside, he did otherwise.

    Parent

    Who is Deedee? (none / 0) (#195)
    by MKS on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:09:13 AM EST
    I think I've spelled it out... (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:57:26 AM EST
    as best I can in my other comments.

    Maybe you need to have had negative interactions with the police to understand why I think it is no way to treat a fellow human being, and hence morally wrong.

    Parent

    you choose (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by ding7777 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:41:48 AM EST
    Maybe you need to have had negative interactions with the police to understand why I think it is no way to treat a fellow human being, and hence morally wrong.

    Imagine yourself TM.  You think GZ has called the police on you.  What do you do?

      1. Get home before the police arrive, thus avoiding negative police interaction

      2  Take the time to teach GZ a "moral" lesson, via a beat-down, insuring you will have a negative police interaction

    Parent

    Go with #2 (3.00 / 2) (#97)
    by Payaso on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:33:28 PM EST
    then claim victim status if/when you get arrested.

    You might get locked up but everyone will know that you're no punk.  

    Parent

    Profiling (1.00 / 1) (#32)
    by woodchuck64 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:33:41 AM EST
    Yes, I can see why profiling of any kind will make innocent people feel mistreated.  And I can also understand why one would believe a moral wrong has been done when innocents feel mistreated.  The pill I find hard to swallow is that a person who occasionally makes innocents feel mistreated as part of his/her legal duties is being immoral.  I would prefer to believe it is a failing of society in some way.


    Parent
    Legal Duties (5.00 / 4) (#112)
    by vicndabx on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:12:32 PM EST
    Zimmerman would have been liable if he didn't follow TM?  That's news to me.

    Parent
    I can say with confidence... (1.00 / 1) (#16)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:54:11 AM EST
    that nobody in my lower income predominantly latino and black ghetto 'burb with it's share of crime wants a George Zimmerman livin' around here. We roll differently...the only relief when my house got broken into was the police weren't notified.

    I don't think the state has a problem with the neighborhood watch, unless they got annoyed with all phone calls...the problem the state has to deal with is the dead unarmed teenager, and a populace upset about it.  I grant you the prosecution, at least in part, was politically motivated and that is troubling...but nothing new.  

    I agree that George surely thinks he was doing a good...I think that's just ignorance on his part, but I'm sure you disagree and think I'm ignorant. We all have our varying moral codes we live by, and none is perfect.

    Parent

    Why this particular dead unarmed teenager? (5.00 / 4) (#99)
    by Payaso on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:40:55 PM EST
    the problem the state has to deal with is the dead unarmed teenager, and a populace upset about it.

    Unarmed teenagers get gunned down on a daily basis in this country.  Many if not most of them are black.  Most of the killers of young black men are other young black men.

    So why is the populace upset about this particular dead unarmed teenager?

    Parent

    It's a demonstration of media power (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by cboldt on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:48:58 PM EST
    A fraction of the public is just following suggestions by institutions it finds trustworthy.  The media meme is that Martin was doing absolutely nothing suspicious, and never laid an unjustified hand on Zimmerman.  The meme continues that Zimmerman should have taken an unjustified beating (it was a minor beating), and guns in the hands of people who are being beaten is bad, because innocent people, like Martin, are killed by murderous thugs like Zimmerman.

    The meme doesn't have to be rational.  Pictures of a young victim are sufficient to lay blame on the shooter.

    Parent

    The populace was upset because (4.25 / 4) (#113)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:14:07 PM EST
    the police knew who killed this particular teenager and did not seem to be inclined to arrest him, at first with no explanation.

    Parent
    No, Ruffian, don't forget race (5.00 / 2) (#186)
    by SuzieTampa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:01:15 PM EST
    As the Orlando Sentinel and the Tampa Bay Times have reported, it's common for arrests to be delayed in self-defense cases, including Stand Your Ground cases. In FL, once a person is arrested, the clock starts ticking. Also, the prosecution had to have probable cause.

    This case went international because it was portrayed as a racist white monster stalking and gunning down an innocent black child, with Sanford as some backward, racist Southern town in which authorities had decided in a few days that they would not arrest GZ. Social media and some mainstream media, too, left out the part about the case still under investigation.

    Parent

    Because (2.33 / 3) (#132)
    by Char Char Binks on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:25:34 PM EST
    George Zimmerman is the ideal white villain name, far better than Jorge Carpintero would have been.  George is a common name, but uncommon for a young man, thus emphasizing and exaggerating his 11-year seniority over TM.  Zimmerman is a very white, Germanic name, perfect for a Nazi, or if your taste in villains runs more to the semitic rather than anti-semitic, a Jew.  

    Parent
    The elephant (2.67 / 3) (#35)
    by John Shaft on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:41:16 AM EST
    in the living room is America's love affair with guns. G.Z. has said - he did not know if T.M. was armed or not -  & in his mind, he needed to shoot T.M. before T.M. could shoot him. If the gun were removed from this situation what would the outcome have been? Would G.Z. really have been beaten to death or become a paraplegic as he has claimed?  Would G.Z. have even gotten out of his truck if he had not been armed considering his concern about  T.M. also carrying? No gun & no one ends up dead, but that sends people into a panic because of the almighty "right to bear arms" mantra.
    I am new to this site & realize that some of my comments have been deleted. I apologize to Jeralyn for whatever I wrote that was inappropriate; I was not aware that I was not following the rules. But, this is a site w/ a huge bias for the defense & I thought dialogue that refuted that might be welcomed.


    Parent
    You are lookoing at this.... (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by MikeB on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:25:45 AM EST
    ....with 20/20 hindsight while holding Zimmerman to that standard. Ok, maybe the injuries had were not life threatening. But how would Zimmerman know and how would YOU know the next injury was not going to incapacitate him? That is why self defense is warranted with the threat of great bodily harm.

    Nobody here is is pro-defense. We are pro facts and pro justice. As a matter of intellectual honesty, ask your self this: If your son, daughter, husband, wife, or whoever were in Zimmermans shoes, how would you view the evidence? If one of your friends or family members were on trial and the state's key witness never came out for 2 weeks, lawyered up, and told a couple lies, would you find her credible? If the police did not find evidence of anything other than self defense, people were removed that didn't pursue criminal charges, and the state skipped the grand jury with an affidavit leaving out exculpatory evidence, would you be ok with it? My guess is no. Some of us are just being consistent. In my opinion, I don't believe the state has even shown probable cause. Not possible cause, but probable cause.

    Parent

    The problem (4.20 / 5) (#52)
    by John Shaft on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:39:38 AM EST
    I have always had w/ this case is how any person merely walking home ends up dead because of the actions of another person, and, that ends up being justifiable - it rattles my brain. Will there be no justice for Trayvon Martin?
    And, really, if Trayvon was my son, daughter, wife, mother, etc., the anger I would have would be insurmountable.

    Parent
    Maybe a bad assumption (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by cboldt on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:49:29 AM EST
    I don't think there would be a trial if Martin was "merely walking home."  Zimmerman's account has Martin deciding to use force of violence against Zimmerman.

    Of course, if you assume the conclusion, your outrage makes perfect sense.  Now the trick is to get the evidence to line up with your conclusion.

    Parent

    My point (none / 0) (#60)
    by John Shaft on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:06:16 PM EST
    here is that if T.M. had never been seen by G.Z. as he was walking home - what would the end result have been?

    Parent
    never been seen (2.60 / 5) (#115)
    by Char Char Binks on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:18:22 PM EST
    Then TM would be free to assault people today.

    Parent
    So, you are (3.00 / 2) (#147)
    by John Shaft on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:39:55 PM EST
    saying that T.M. would have assaulted G.Z. without provocation? I guess that is the position of the defense & I find that totally unreasonable. Because w/out G.Z.'s suspicion re: T.M.'s behavior - what is the probability these two would ever have made contact w/ one another?

    Parent
    Provocation (3.17 / 6) (#150)
    by Char Char Binks on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:03:55 PM EST
    Why wouldn't TM have assaulted GZ without provocation?  People do it every day.  TM was known to engage in fights in a "ducked off place".  EVERY assault is without (legal) provocation, or it would be called self defense, or something besides assault.  GZ had every right to be suspicious, whether that suspicion was warranted (as I believe) or not (maybe we'll find out more if there is any unknown evidence left).  TM probably overhead GZ's side of the NEN call, got angry at the "creepy-@zz cracker" and sought retribution.

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#158)
    by John Shaft on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:37:54 PM EST
    you are way off on that assumption.

    Parent
    Way off (none / 0) (#162)
    by Char Char Binks on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:58:47 PM EST
    I guess you proved that.

    Parent
    Considering (none / 0) (#164)
    by John Shaft on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:08:23 PM EST
    TM's first inclination was to run & attempt to lose GZ when he realized that GZ was following him; I find it hard to believe he would just attack him unprovoked.

    Parent
    Second impulse? (5.00 / 3) (#206)
    by MJW on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 01:18:16 AM EST
    If his first impulse was to run, what was the second impulse that led him, several minutes later, to be right back to the spot he'd run from?

    Parent
    Then (3.00 / 2) (#170)
    by Char Char Binks on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:16:35 PM EST
    why would you find it easy to believe that GZ would attack HIM unprovoked?  And why couldn't Slimm outrun the fat man?

    Parent
    He was provoked (1.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Jack203 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:31:18 PM EST
    "I find it hard to believe he would just attack him unprovoked. "

    He was provoked.  He was followed, and he didn't like it.

    Let me ask you something.....where you grew up, did 17 years olds not get in a lot of fights.  Where I grew up they did.  Especially the ones constantly suspended from school.

    All the bad 17 year old white kids I knew from highschool, I could picture them cold cocking a little dweeb like George Zimmerman any day of the week for "dissing" them.  Easiest thing in the world for me to picture. I even remember some similar incidents of the bad constantly suspended kids assaulting adults.

    Parent

    Good points, Jack (3.00 / 2) (#185)
    by Char Char Binks on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:28:43 PM EST
    That's exactly the kind of thing I'm referring to.  Of course there's "provoked", and there's legally provoked, or justified, and those kids you knew who would attack someone for being a dweeb (or "creepy", in the parlance of the times) would, could, and should be arrested for it.  They could even get shot, if they were so unlucky, and it would be justified.

    Parent
    Friendly Fire (none / 0) (#57)
    by woodchuck64 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:47:24 AM EST
    The fog of war is blamed for friendly fire, where an innocent soldier is accidentaly killed by his buddies.

    I think of this case as the moral equivalent of Friendly Fire.  The ultimate blame is the fog of culture war.

    Parent

    George was responding to Sybrina's request (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by Redbrow on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:59:05 PM EST
    When he put himself at risk by apologizing on the stand.

    From Sybrina's Today Show appearance right before that hearing:

    i want to ask tracy and sybrina, either of you can take this question. if you were to come face to face with george zimmerman , what do you want to tell him? what do you want to ask him?
    one of the things that i still believe in a person should apologize when they are actually remorseful for what they've done. i believe it was an accident. i believe that it just got out of control, and he couldn't turn the clock back. i would ask him, did he know that that was a minor, that that was a teenager and that he did not have a weapon? i would ask him -- that i understand that his family is hurting, but think about our family that lost our teenage son. i mean, it's just very difficult to live with day in and day out. i'm sure his parents can pick up the phone and call him, but we can't pick up the phone and call trayvon anymore.


    Parent

    Thank you (1.50 / 2) (#200)
    by John Shaft on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:34:32 AM EST
    that makes sense. However, considering the extent of GZ's injuries, I wonder if the jury will believe GZ's fear & use of deadly force was because he thought TM would beat him to death w/ his hands.

    Parent
    Hi John (none / 0) (#47)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:12:02 AM EST
    Jeralyn is a defense lawyer and what she writes is from that perspective.

    The people commenting are deeply divided, but the basis rules are don't state something that's not fact, state it's your opinion. And no character attacks on Trayvon.

    Parent

    Thanks, Teresa: (none / 0) (#49)
    by John Shaft on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:18:14 AM EST
    still not sure what I said; but have an idea, maybe speculation. And, no character attacks made on anyone.

    Parent
    From Jeralyn's comments, (none / 0) (#54)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:42:04 AM EST
    speculation is fine (we're all doing it from one side or another), just state it's your opinion. Just add a little IMO, unless it's facts known from discovery or court. That's possibly why you're comment(s) were deleted (I didn't see them that I remember). I haven't seen any comments discussing moral responsibilities deleted.

    I like reading all sides. I'm waffling and that's because people here I respect feel differently from each other and I think it helps me consider something I hadn't thought about before.

    Nice to "meet" you.

    Parent

    your personal views of gun control (none / 0) (#123)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:43:19 PM EST
    relevant to any issue in this case. The issue is whether GZ committed a crime. His possession of the weapon was lawful. Please do not attempt to hijack the thread from a discussion of the Zimmerman case to the broader issue of gun rights.


    Parent
    Hello Jeralyn: (1.00 / 1) (#155)
    by John Shaft on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:26:01 PM EST
    I am a newbie here & do not mean to offend. However, I have been fascinated by the apology GZ made to TM's parents in which he admitted that he thought TM might be armed. And, in my mind, I see that as the real impetus behind GZ shooting TM. However, the fear in his mind & the use of deadly force was ungrounded. It was really a situation in which GZ decided he needed to shoot TM before TM shot him.
    Maybe, I am wrong but I think that apology by GZ exposed the reality of his mindset & the fact that his actions of self-defense in killing TM were not warranted.  


    Parent
    This makes zero sense at all (5.00 / 3) (#183)
    by Jack203 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:43:23 PM EST
    You've discovered the real evidence against GZ John Shaft!  It was because he apologized...brilliant!

    He apologized to the parents, because as all evidence before and after we've learned about GZ.  He's a genuine, well meaning, respectable person.

    To begin with he is possibly one of the worst targets of the BGI that you will ever find.  There isn't a racist bone in his body, and was in fact a very strong advocate for African American causes.

    Secondly, he is universally described as a caring neighbor, responsible and meek.

    If you were to convince me of a lunatic targeting and shooting a kid for no good reason.  You would have to start with evidence the suspect is either a crazed maniac or at the very least an unpredictable loose cannon.

    You have no evidence of either.

    Parent

    My point (3.00 / 2) (#197)
    by John Shaft on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:15:41 AM EST
    re: the apology was that GZ's fear & need to use deadly force was because he thought TM was armed. GZ was wrong, TM was unarmed & therefore, the use of deadly force was unwarranted.
    Not quite sure that your rant about what a swell guy GZ is has anything to do w/ that aspect of my comment.

    Parent
    apology was answering (none / 0) (#204)
    by lily on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 01:07:46 AM EST
    3 questions Sybrina Fulton listed she would like answered if GZ was to apologize. GZ tried, and we know how that was received. You are taking those answers totally out of context and speculating as to what he meant.

    Parent
    Thank you, Lily: (3.00 / 2) (#207)
    by John Shaft on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 01:55:17 AM EST
    I understand that was his response.
    However, considering the extent of GZ's injuries, will the jury believe that he needed to use deadly force?
    I have always felt this was an over-reaction by GZ to the threat he was under & that he should have been charged w/ manslaughter.
    I will never be convinced that GZ had to shoot TM because he believed that TM would beat him to death w/ his fists.

    Parent
    Extent of injuries (5.00 / 2) (#208)
    by lily on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 02:20:30 AM EST
    Well, you will never get me to minimize the threat of head trauma.

    I attended a murder trial of a friend stomped to death by his drug dealer in east Oakland. No bleeding, no smashed skull, no bones broken. After a month in a coma he was taken off life support.
    He was 53.

    Another friend, 27 years old, hit his head once without a helmet when he lost control of bike in downhill section. Blood came out of his ears from the trauma of brain bouncing inside the skull. Dead within 2 minutes, NOT a single scratch or bruise on the body, all organs donated, very healthy athlete.

    Then my son, stomped in the head multiple times when attacked unprovoked. He was 13 years old. Similar injuries to GZ. Concussion, he could not concentrate for a few months, headaches.

    I was jumped 4 years ago walking home from public transit. unprovoked, no robbery, just a thrill beating, stomped in the head as well, fortunately a family driving by stopped in the middle of the road prompting the attacker to flee.

    Parent

    According to GZ, TM walked towards him (none / 0) (#194)
    by friendofinnocence on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:59:47 PM EST
    and put his hand in his waistband.  It is reasonable to believe that is why GZ thought he could be armed.  Why else would TM do that?

    Parent
    one more thing (1.00 / 3) (#111)
    by Char Char Binks on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:09:18 PM EST
    The prosecution has done things that are morally AND legally wrong, and I hope they will be punished.

    Parent
    Zimmerman could have prevented (1.00 / 2) (#114)
    by Char Char Binks on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:14:21 PM EST
    the entire incident by moving to Des Moines or Copenhagen.

    Parent
    Agreed (none / 0) (#10)
    by Dadler on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:17:18 AM EST
    Coulda just linked to your concise comment, rather than prattle on with the one I just posted. I like my Mother Jones link, tho, now that's a frightening read. There isn't a horror movie any scarier.

    Parent
    But I left out... (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:46:13 AM EST
    your concise in conclusion..."So it goes in phucked up America".  Clowns to the left, jokers to the right.

    Have a great time at the family reunion...they're as lucky to have you as you them my friend.

    Parent

    very different things (none / 0) (#109)
    by Char Char Binks on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:07:58 PM EST
    Not true;  We have laws against them because we consider violations such as theft, assault, battery, and murder to be morally wrong.  What did Z do that was either morally or legally wrong?  

    Parent
    Elephant in the room (3.67 / 3) (#9)
    by Dadler on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:14:12 AM EST
    This entire episode rests on a pachyderm on the pool table that will play no part in this trial, nor could it in an evidentiary sense: what role did Zimmerman's loaded firearm play BEFORE it was used by Zimmerman or, allegedly, grabbed at by Martin.

    If Martin saw or felt that gun at ANY point prior to or during the altercation, then Martin would've had every right fight to the death since he would've genuinely and factually been fearing for his life. Seeing or feeling that gun would've ratcheted up the stakes and the justifications. That's what putting fingertip death into any human conflict always does. Cops don't pull out a licorice rope and point it at you when they want you to ultimately surrender and hit the dirt.

    But trials and their evidence, necessarily, severely limit reality and what can be used to define reality. Zimmerman, by the rules of the game, will probably skate.

    I've mentioned it before, that I've had guns pointed at me in anger, and that I've had a guy shot to death right outside my bedroom window, a crime for which my wife and I were ear witnesses. We heard our shooters spin a tale to the police that was pure b.s., and yet it strikes me now that a decent to good lawyer could've probably at trial managed to raise doubts about the statements we gave police. Those doubts would've been rubbish, the product of rhetorical and acting talent, but having zero to do with factual reality. And had a prosecutor been in the same position, they'd have spun the same tale to create doubt or certainty or whatever they needed. Certainly, many prosecutors in the nation are operating with more of a reactionary revenge mentality than a justice mentality.

    So it goes in phucked up America, and let's not forget the Zimmerman trial is taking place in the only state completely run by the Tea Party (link). The disgusting ironies there are too rich for my taste.


    Interesting new concept (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Payaso on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:50:20 PM EST
    If Martin saw or felt that gun at ANY point prior to or during the altercation, then Martin would've had every right fight to the death since he would've genuinely and factually been fearing for his life.

    Can you provide any statute or case decision to support it?

    Parent

    Absolute baloney (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:12:31 PM EST
    .

    If Martin saw or felt that gun at ANY point prior to or during the altercation, then Martin would've had every right fight to the death since he would've genuinely and factually been fearing for his life.

    You have no right to initiate a "fight to the death" if you merely see a person with a firearm, a knife, a chainsaw, a baseball bat, an ice pick or any other object that can be used as  deadly weapon.  By your extreme formulation an armed police officer is fair game for any and all attacks.  Rubbish.

    .

    Parent

    From 776 Statutes.. (3.00 / 2) (#192)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:56:14 PM EST
    Jeralyn
    A person is justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent (1) imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or (2) the imminent commmision of aggravated battery against  himself or another.

    The danger facing the defendant need not have been actual; however, to justify the use of deadly force, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force. Based upon appearances, the defendant must have actually believed that the danger was real.

    Relevant Florida Statutes, Jury Instructions

    Parent

    It's not skating ... (none / 0) (#11)
    by rickroberts on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:44:28 AM EST
    if it by the rules of the game.

    Parent
    zimmerman (none / 0) (#24)
    by morphic on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:55:46 AM EST
       It's difficu;t to believe if Trayvon MArtin knew George Zimmerman was armed, there would have been a fight. What kind of idiot gets into a fight when someone is holding a gun on you? Since Zimmerman called the cops, and knew they were on their way and could arrive at any time, if he had the drop on Martin, even while contemplating pressing the trigger, he would have had no choice but to call them.

    Parent
    There were so many different ways it could have (3.00 / 2) (#74)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:25:46 PM EST
    gone, I think that is what is so frustrating. According to Zimmerman, when Martin confronted him and said something like 'do you have a problem with me', Zimmerman responded 'no'., which is of course wrong, since he had already had enough of a 'problem' with him to call the police. What if he had been honest and said 'yeah, I do, and I am armed and the police are on their way. ' Maybe Martin would have high tailed it home and the police could sort it out later.

    Ugh, I just think there should be some sort of a good judgement test before concealed carry permits are handed out.

    Parent

    Stand in line for the coldcock permits (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by cboldt on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:39:29 PM EST
    So, Martin used good judgment?  Is that how this shakes out?  We have to draw a line somewhere, and the law looks at threat or use of force of violence as the line drawing "thing."  Somebody escalated the situation to use of violent force.

    Why should Zimmerman announce he is armed?  That could come off as a threat.

    Parent

    If GZ is telling the truth, than of course Martin (none / 0) (#81)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:48:26 PM EST
    did not use good judgement.

    And of course you are right, it is much better to hide the threat you pose.

    Parent

    Threats are public by definition (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by cboldt on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:59:24 PM EST
    "Hiding a threat" is an oxymoron.  Look up "threat" or "to threaten" in a dictionary.  Sheesh.  Hiding a threat.

    Many people "hide" their defensive capabilities.  Plenty of people are trained and skilled at using their own bodies in self defense, or use of aids that are not normally thought of as weapons.  And many people telegraph weakness.

    I'm an advocate of hiding defensive capability.   Use force of violence against me at your own risk.

    Parent

    Threat as in 'indication of imminent danger' (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:42:17 PM EST
    You can certainly hide the fact that you are a danger. Isn't that what you are saying you do?  Isn't that what Zimmerman did? Not saying there is anything wrong in that, but if he had chosen to make his potential danger clear before the fight started, maybe there would not have been a fight.

    No way to know now, since that tactic was not tried.  I can easily agree he should not be convicted of murder 2. But I am pretty glad his law enforcement career was nipped in the bud.

    Parent

    Being able to defend is not a danger (5.00 / 0) (#141)
    by cboldt on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:59:08 PM EST
    You do have a point.  If Zimmerman was 6'5" and 280 pounds, chances are that Martin would not have found him to be an attractive target.

    Parent
    that would not be wise (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:58:12 PM EST
    since Zimmerman did not know if Martin was armed. Had Martin have been armed, by the time GZ got out "I am armed and have called the police", Martin could have pulled out his own gun and shot him. Remember that GZ told the non-emergency operator twice Martin was holding something in hands and had his hands in his waistband.

    Once Zimmerman was attacked, there was no other way for this to play out unless Martin had listened to John and stopped his attack.

    The police told residents over and over not to engage a suspect but to call the non-emergency number. If there's a real threat, they should call 911. GZ says after Martin confronted him, asking why he was being followed, he pulled out his phone to call 911 (not the non-emergency line.) As he was locating it, he says Martin decked him.

    Rachel first told Crump that GZ had responded with "what are you talking about" not "what are you doing around here." If GZ was reaching for his phone to call 911, it was because he recognized the potential threat Martin suddenly posed to him. If that's what happened, he was right to try and get the police on the phone rather than further engage Martin. Unfortunately, he didn't have time before Martin decked him.

    Parent

    Flip that persective (5.00 / 4) (#142)
    by Yman on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:03:41 PM EST
    If it would have been unwise for Zimmerman to tell Martin he was armed and called the police (because he didn't know if Martin was armed), why would it be reasonable for Martin to wait to see what Zimmerman was drawing out of his pocket?

    There's a stranger who's been watching him and following him in his car at night.  The stranger leaves his car and continues to follow him even after Martin tries to run away down a footpath.  After the two come face-to-face, the stranger reaches into his pocket.  Just as Zimmerman didn't know if Martin was armed, Martin didn't know if Zimmerman was armed - and, of course, he was armed.  Should he wait and see if he was drawing a knife/gun/cell phone from his pocket, or should he tackle the guy, maybe even "deck him" with a punch to the nose?  Up until this point, Martin's decision is either a wise decision to (preemptively) protect himself from the stranger following him, or a wrong decision that might result in battery charges, depending on whether his fear is reasonable.

    From that point forward the decision becomes whether you believe Zimmerman's account and whether you think the forensic evidence and witnesses support that account or not.  That's the issue the jury has to decide.  Did Martin really say he was going to kill Zimmerman?  Did he really punch him in the face two dozen times and smash his head repeatedly against the concrete?  Did he really try to smother him and reach for his gun?

    If you were being followed at night by a stranger and managed to get on top of them, would you simply get off of them when someone says they're calling the police (John) - particularly if you were just struggling with them and you discover they have a gun?  IMO, it would be extremely unwise to do so.

    BTW - Is a comment to the effect of "I think Martin defenders are nuts, in a nutshell" permissible?

    Parent

    Some of us attempt to look at all the (5.00 / 4) (#148)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:51:37 PM EST
    perspectives, to the point of seeming "nuts' apparently.

    IMO enough questions about Zimmerman's account exist that it was right for the state to put the case before a jury. If they find reasonable doubt, so be it. I don't think that every case that results in an acquittal is therefore a trumped up, illegitimate charge.

    Parent

    Let me rephrase before... (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:02:20 PM EST
    I dont think THIS case is a trumped up, illegitimate  charge.

    Parent
    Thank you. (none / 0) (#160)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:48:55 PM EST
    Jeralyn c'mon (3.67 / 3) (#128)
    by vicndabx on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:01:18 PM EST
    you'd have us believe that if GZ thought TM had a gun, and GZ himself had a gun, GZ would reach for his phone first?

    Why not just run back to your car if you are so concerned for safety?

    Parent

    IF GZ reached for his phone, assuming (none / 0) (#154)
    by melamineinNY on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:24:59 PM EST
    it was in response to a confrontational "presence" initiated by TM, would TM be in a frame of mind to think GZ was reaching for a weapon? And if TM had a concealed hand - in his waistband - as he confronted GZ, GZ might, under the circumstances, be in fear that the hand might be on a weapon. But how would that lead to a punch or a scuffle? And why would GZ reach for his phone instead of first trying to diffuse the situation verbally? Both strike me as futile if the stranger in front of him was perceived as imminently dangerous. Was it GZ's belief that TM was acting in a suspicious manner, reinforced by his approach to GZ? My own take on this hypothetical scenario is that GZ's reaching for his phone instead of trying to diffuse the situation verbally by identifying himself as NW and explaining his presence could be seen by TM as a hostile action. But having read about some of TM's other recent activities earlier today, more specifically, items found in his possession that could not have belonged to him, makes me wonder who was the one that night more likely to have been in a relatively more paranoid state of mind.

    Parent
    W6's testimony (just my opinion) (2.00 / 1) (#76)
    by scooterdoo on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:38:19 PM EST
    Precision as Obfuscation: Obfuscation is the hiding of intended meaning in communication, making communication confusing, willfully ambiguous, and harder to interpret.

    THE BANK ROBBERY GETAWAY CAR
    Did you see the bank robber's getaway car? - "Yes." What color was it? -"I don't know what color the car was." You saw the car? -"Yes." But you didn't see the color? - "I saw a car and I saw a color but I don't know what color the car was." What color did you see? -"I believe the color I saw was green but I can't confirm that with a 100% certainty and I can't confirm the color of the car." But it looked green? -"The color I saw was green but it may have been blue-green or teal or some variation of green. I can't confirm 100% that the car was green as it may have been a shade of green rather than a true green." So the bank robbery getaway car was green or greenish? -"I can't confirm that." What do you mean you cant confirm that? You just said you saw green or some variation of green. -"I only saw the right-side of the car. That appeared to be green or greenish or some variation of green. I don't know the color of the left-side of the car. The car may have been red or some other color but because I only saw the left-side I can't confirm the color on the other side of the car or the color of the car." Police Detective broadcasts an all-points-bulletin for a green getaway car and tells the witness he's being a smartazz.

    POLICEMAN SEES MAN BEING BEATEN
    Officer Smith sees a man straddled on top of a man who is laying on his back. The man on top seams to be beating the man on the ground in a "MMA-style" similar to a "ground and pound" attack. The man on the ground seems to be screaming hysterically for help. However, officer Smith does not actually see the fists of the man on top strike the face of the man on bottom. He is also not 100% positive that the man on the bottom is screaming as he cannot see his lips move due to the darkness. Additionally, other fanciful scenarios could explain the screams appearing to come from the man on the bottom... perhaps there is a speaker imbedded in the ground broadcasting the screams. Officer Smith can contrive, using his imagination, multiple fanciful explanations. Officer Smith can't even exclude the possibility that he is in the Matrix and nothing he sees is actually real. Because Officer Smith can't be 100% sure of anything, Officer Smith continues on his patrol without interceding in what seems to be an assault in progress and a man screaming for help.

    Given the State continues to (none / 0) (#2)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:26:28 AM EST
    present it's case in chief, it is difficult to concludes there is a "rush to judgment."

    The rush to judgment happened last year (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Payaso on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:18:14 AM EST
    As the evidence emerged it disproved the original narrative.

    Parent
    Judgment will involve the jurors (none / 0) (#4)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:35:38 AM EST
    and the judge as to any motion to the case from the jury prior to verdict or post trial motion.

    Parent
    My tweats of June 27... (none / 0) (#7)
    by heidelja on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:49:23 AM EST
    @NowWithAlex Forget Wendy of Texas...what's being played out in Sanford, Fl  as "justice" brought about by state prosecutors...should rightly have farreaching affects to them if leaders and judges have a backbone. ...  My point being the conflicting AND wobbly testimony engendered by the state in an attempt to wrongly convict someone.

    Email Sent to Judge Nelson (none / 0) (#18)
    by RickyJim on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:12:34 AM EST
    I sent the following to the court clerk on June 23.  I have no idea if the judge saw it.  I think the possibility that the jury will either not understand or ignore the prosecution's burden of proof is a real possibility.

    Dear Judge Nelson:

    I watched the proceedings in the Zimmerman case on June 20th and paid
    close attention to the instruction on justifiable use of deadly force
    that you read for the jury.  My experience has been that it is much
    easier for a jury to understand their job if one breaks it down into a
    sequence of yes or no questions they are to answer.  It also helps to
    strip out redundancies and irrelevancies from the task.  Here is my
    attempt to do that for the justifiable use of deadly force
    instruction.

    **********
    You are to find George Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force
    against Trayvon Martin if and only if you find all of the following
    are reasonable:

    1.  The relative physical abilities and capabilities of Martin and
    Zimmerman were such that Zimmerman could not overcome or escape from
    Martin, in the situation in this case, without resorting to deadly
    force.

    2.  At the time he applied deadly force, Zimmerman believed himself to be in imminent danger of death or
    great bodily harm that could only be avoided by shooting Martin.

    3.  Zimmerman's belief in the danger he was in, at the time he applied deadly force, was sincere and would
    have been shared by any reasonably prudent and cautious person in the
    same situation.  (It is unnecessary to consider the actual reality of
    the danger.)
    *
    ***********

    I hope that the above will help you and the lawyers craft an
    instruction that will not bewilder the jury.  Thank you for your
    attention.

    Florida has standard jury instructions (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:32:16 PM EST
    Judge Nelson has already read the jury the instruction she intends to give. The instruction itself specifies which sections to give depending on the evidence. All of her instruction comes from Instruction 3.6 which I have linked to many times.

    Self-Defense Instruction as Read by Judge Nelson to the Prospective Jury Panel June 20, 2013

    An issue in this case is whether the defendant acted in self-defense. It is a defense to the offense with which George Zimmerman is charged if the death of Trayvon Martin resulted from the justifiable use of deadly force.

    "Deadly force" means force likely to cause death or great bodily harm.

    A person is justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent (1) imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or (2) the imminent commmision of aggravated battery against  himself or another.

    Aggravated battery is intentionally touching or striking another against his or her will, and in committing the battery,  intentionally or knowingly causing great bodily harm, permanent disability or permanent disfigurement to the other person.   

    In deciding whether defendant was justified in the use of deadly force, you must judge him by the circumstances by which he was surrounded at the time the force was used. The danger facing the defendant need not have been actual; however, to justify the use of deadly force, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably cautious and prudent person under the
    same circumstances would have believed that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force. Based upon appearances, the defendant must have actually believed that the danger was real.

    If the defendant was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he  had a right to be, he  had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his  ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he  reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

    In considering the issue of self-defense, you may take into account the relative physical abilities and capacities of the defendant and Trayvon Martin.

    If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the question of whether the defendant was justified in the use of deadly force, you should find the defendant not guilty.

    However, if from the evidence you are convinced that the defendant was not justified in the use of deadly force, you should find him guilty if all the elements of the charge have been proved.



    Parent
    My Confusion About the Offical Instruction (none / 0) (#166)
    by RickyJim on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:19:29 PM EST
    Judge Nelson said something to the effect that the instruction she read might not be the final one.  That is why I sent my suggestion to her.  We discussed the instruction on TLForums and I posted this there giving the reasons I was confused about what was read in court which lead me to try to make a more intelligible formulation.

    This instruction, which has been "customized" for this case, contains these two sentences

    A person is justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent (1) imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or (2) the imminent commission of aggravated battery against  himself or another.

    ..........................

    If the defendant was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he  had a right to be, he  had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his  ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he  reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.


    What confuses me is

    1. The first gives Zimmerman the right to use deadly force without a mention of the duty to retreat, if he believes it necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm.  Part (2) of it seems redundant.  The second, after the ellipsis, requires him to retreat (if possible) if he was committing a crime or was in a place he had no right to be before using deadly force.  They seem contradictory in the case Zimmerman was committing a crime or was in a place he had no right to be, and redundant in the opposite case.
    2. Wouldn't the prosecution have to file an additional charge to cover the unlawful activity mentioned in the second sentence, similar to what they would have to do if .041(1) were being used?
    3.  Who would object if the second sentence were excised from the jury instruction?


    Parent
    RJ, do they really craft jury instructions (none / 0) (#37)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:43:14 AM EST
    to a specific trial that way? I've not read very many instructions before, but the ones I have read made me wonder if everyone on the jury truly understands them. I'm not talking about this case.

    Parent
    Yes They Do (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by RickyJim on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:50:12 AM EST
    Appeals courts have thrown out convictions because the jury instructions weren't crafted to the details of a particular case.

    Parent
    I didn't know that. Thank you. (none / 0) (#48)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:16:42 AM EST
    I thought they'd just read the law, which I have done, and the jury would be very confused.

    --
    Thank you too, Ruffian. I can't imagine arguing/discussing with fellow jurors for two days and being hung. I've often worried if I'd be strong enough to stand up to others if I were in the minority. I'm not saying you were, but just in general.

    I know I'd take it seriously, and I think I could do it, but I'd feel guilty.

    Parent

    It was another lady that was in the minority (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:19:40 PM EST
    for finding for the plaintiff, and even though we all disagreed with her, we gave her no hassle at all for standing her ground. She made some vey good points. It was not a hostile environment whatsoever. Of course there was "only money" on the line, so it was not as emotionally charged as it might have been if she were advocating sending someone to jail.

    Parent
    5th DCA has already instructed Nelson (none / 0) (#51)
    by lily on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:31:39 AM EST
    on how she is to proceed in instructing the jury on self defense in their response to the Writ of Cert

    Parent
    Please Show Me Where (none / 0) (#53)
    by RickyJim on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:40:29 AM EST
    I assume you are talking about this document.  I didn't see anything about jury instructions in it.

    Parent
    JUry Instructions (none / 0) (#120)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:35:51 PM EST
    my mistake (none / 0) (#140)
    by lily on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:53:43 PM EST
    I confused DCA documents from a discussion on Nettles blog, she has provided me with a clarification pasted below

    Judge Nelson was reversed twice in the same week by the 5th DCA. Of course, we know about the decision to allow a limited deposition of Mr. Crump and the other case was her failure to give a self-defense instruction in the case. The court order a new trial as result.

    Here is the order that reversed her on that. http://www.5dca.org/Opinions/Opin2013/052713/5D12-796.op.pdf


    Parent

    Yes, the jury instructions I got on a recent case (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:58:53 AM EST
    were written for the case. It was a civil suit, but the judge petty much told us what the plaintiff had to prove. It was written in a yes-no format like the above also.

    Even so we argued for two days and had a hung jury!

    Parent

    Do these instructions become public information? (none / 0) (#44)
    by EL seattle on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:07:53 AM EST
    I'd like to think that jury instructions would always become available to the public, after a trial is over. (But maybe it's not always done that way?)

    Parent
    Jury Instructions (none / 0) (#63)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:13:00 PM EST
    are read to the Jury and are part of the public record.   And, given that the proceedings are being televised, it appears as if the reading of the jury instructions will be televised too.

    Parent
    The instructions will not be crafted as (none / 0) (#119)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:33:45 PM EST
    Ricky suggests. The judge has already read the instruction she intends to give. See comments below.

    Parent
    To Be Decided After Prosecution Rests (none / 0) (#30)
    by RickyJim on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:27:33 AM EST
    That is what O'Mara said when asked that question.  Of course the matter has been speculated about extensively on line.

    Another article (none / 0) (#31)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:32:53 AM EST
    The Daily Howler, Bob Somerby writes about Charles Blow, who was part of the arrest Zimmerman crowd on MSNBC last year (I didn't see it), coming around to believing in reasonable doubt.

    It sounds like he doesn't want to, but he sees it, too. I read this last night, so I think that's how I remember it.

    If GZ is found not guilty, I expect a lot of anger. I hope the media will try to explain it correctly. I didn't see it this week (considering it's only one week with several to go).

    I see that in a lot (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:17:01 PM EST
    of commentators, especially after Friday's testimony.

    If you have two witnesses contradict each other on who was on top of whom, I don't know how you get from there to guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. At least on Second Degree Murder.  

    In my opinion, there appears to be conflicting  evidence on almost every issue of fact.  

    Parent

    If there is a conflict between witnesses (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Payaso on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:01:17 PM EST
    the jury weighs their credibility and decides who to believe.

    The testimony of a single witness, if believed, is sufficient to sustain a verdict.  This is true even when witnesses conflict.

    OTOH a jury doesn't have to believe any of the witnesses.

    Parent

    Sure, theoretically possible (none / 0) (#152)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:17:03 PM EST
    But maddening for the jurors.  And the Prosecution would have to run the table on all issues of fact....

    Parent
    yes, conflicting (none / 0) (#93)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:20:05 PM EST
    Weren't the witnesses after the gunshot except for John Good? GZ said that after the shot, he got on top of TM to make sure he wouldn't get up and continue the fight (my bad paraphrase).

    Maybe the one lady who was on with 911 for nearly 20 minutes and thought she heard three shots. I don't believe her because of that. I don't mean she lied, but she was frightened or nervous and got known facts wrong.

    The others, I'm not sure of, because I think they came out after they heard the shot. Am I missing one besides Good?

    Parent

    right (none / 0) (#184)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:48:47 PM EST
    Good saw some of the fight before the gunshot . . . and all others some a scene after the gunshot.

    dz

    Parent

    Prosecution Theory (none / 0) (#33)
    by Mr Mark Martinson on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:36:37 AM EST
    How will the prosecution explain why, if according to Rachel, Martin was near the home when the altercation started, the shooting didn't take place anywhere near the home?

    zimmerman (none / 0) (#65)
    by morphic on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:13:22 PM EST
      Will you explain why one prosecution witness had Zimmerman on top. He fired three shots in Martin's back and she witnessed it all? Is there some kind of point to her insane drivel?

    Parent
    What is the explanation (none / 0) (#72)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:20:02 PM EST
    for the testimony of the officers and EMT that Trayvon was found face down with his hands under his body?

    Parent
    zimmerman (none / 0) (#83)
    by morphic on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:56:36 PM EST
        Martin didn't die right away. After Zimmerman released Martin's arms, Martin than placed them where the wound was.

    Parent
    Zimmerman says he himself (none / 0) (#139)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:51:00 PM EST
    took Martin's arms and spread them away from his body. Was this before Martin then moved them himself?

    Parent
    So, the sequence would be (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:28:14 PM EST
    Zimmerman shoots Trayvon, Trayvon falls down on the ground, Zimmerman then pull's Trayvon's hands away from his body, and then Trayvon as he is dying puts his hands on his wound under his body?

    Parent
    Not in Uganda but in Russia (none / 0) (#38)
    by Politalkix on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:44:19 AM EST
    OOPs (none / 0) (#39)
    by Politalkix on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:46:00 AM EST
    Wrong thread. J, please delete it. I will post in the Non-GZ thread.

    Parent
    Dee Dee or Rachel Jeantel ? (none / 0) (#78)
    by lily on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:43:45 PM EST
    [linkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iepkwi4nt_E#t=1m10s]

    looks like they need Owens software for voice comparison testing.
    Compare Crump's original recording of DeeDee testimony with the Rachel aka DeeDee heard in court

    RJ testified they were having three way conversations that day. Was TM girlfriend and RJ on the phone that day, texting and talking with TM?

    DD (1.00 / 2) (#84)
    by morphic on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:57:44 PM EST
    might not bed able to read and write all, IMO. So how can text?

    Parent
    Simply flummoxed by cursive (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by cboldt on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:02:43 PM EST
    Rachael knows times new roman, or arial, or whatever text font she is viewing.  She's not illiterate.

    Parent
    handwriting (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by lily on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:50:45 PM EST
    Yeah she is no different than my sons who were not taught cursive, one got some instruction and the other refused home instruction claiming cursive irrelevant. Both kids are in graduate schools and I bet they would struggle to read the original Declaration of Independence.

    Parent
    Crump interview with DD (none / 0) (#209)
    by lily on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 02:26:27 AM EST
    a theories to explain the facts? (none / 0) (#87)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:07:15 PM EST
    There is approximately 2:30 minutes between the ending of the GZ call and the beginning of the 911 calls.  The question is: What was happening during those 2:30 minutes?  Did the fight start almost immediately?  If it started almost immediately, why did no one call 911 sooner?  Were there no cries for help during the first minute of the fight?

    the GZ call ends in this way: GZ has no sight of TM and the operator has suggested that GZ not follow him.  That is not the preference of GZ, who also knows that shortly prior, 2 contruction workers had foiled a burglary by "following" at a distance some suspicious black males.  Despite the instructions given in NW orientation not to follow, and despite the suggestion of the operator, GZ knows that the chances of his preventing any burglary are increased if he is around.

    Perhaps he is at this time, approximately at the T, which was a convenient point to view in at least 3 directions of likely travel.  If he is not already at the T, then, when having returned to being approximately at the T, it is a convenient place to stop for a few momements and look around more carefully.  Rather than immediately walk back to his truck, he simply waits and/or perhaps is tapping a flashlight to see if it would start working again.  On one hand, he isn't "following" per the suggestion of the NEN operator; on the other, he has strongly increased the likelihood of seeing TM again.

    Per the unreliable testimony of Rachel, TM has in fact reached his "home" at the time.  Or he is at least nearby.  He certainly had had plenty of time to arrive at home, had he wished to do so.

    He turns; he looks and sees GZ at the T, bumbling around with a flashlight or in other ways, drawing attention to himself.  He sees GZ as a possible weak and unsuspecting target and decides to return, confront and perhaps fight with him.  He also realizes that GZ doesn't now see him.  Rachel does report and probably correctly that TM saw GZ behind him . . . However, it is possible that TM could see Z without Z having seen TM

    Something in GZ's manner or behavior suggests that TM that GZ is not as awesome as he thought originally. . .  and TM would not mind a fight.
    Perhaps GZ is looking in the wrong direction . . . perhaps GZ is tapping his flashlight on the ground.  Either way, GZ is transformed in Tm's mind more into a fool or bumbler, rather than a threat.

    We already know from both GZ and from Rachel that the first words spoken are from TM to GZ.  If you plan to speak to someone, and you are not near them, you naturally approach the person.  

    While GZ is just waiting, TM reapproaches the T and nears GZ.  In a loud and angry voice, he confronts Z, asking why he is following him.  Within 10 seconds, the fight has started.

    When GZ tells his story to police, he is truthful, with the qualification that he omits or minimizes taking any extra time waiting or looking at the T.  It seems irrelevant and is one thing that people could construe as not following the instruction to not follow the suspicious person.

    moreover (none / 0) (#90)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:13:21 PM EST
    If GZ was at or near the T and just waiting or browsing or looking about, he was not in fact following TM at that moment.  

    Suppose that Rachel's original "testimony" was correct . . . and the original dialogue was:

    What are you following me for?
    or
    why are you following me?

    and GZ, having been stationary, says, "What are you talking about?"

    For, for 30 to 90 seconds, GZ had not been "following," TM.

    Parent

    No instruction (none / 0) (#98)
    by friendofinnocence on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:36:12 PM EST
    The NEN did not give Zimmerman an "instruction" not to follow TM.  He said, "We don't need you to do that."  The NEN dispatcher said on the stand they word things that way for liability reasons.  So, call it a recommendation.

    For example, if the NEN dispatcher gave a citizen an order not to follow a suspicious person, and that suspicious person went on to commit a home invasion, one would presume there would be a law suit.  Plus, a 911 or NEN operator can't give civilians orders to not walk around their own neighborhood anyway.  They have no authority, at least that is my understanding.

    Parent

    instruction . . . suggestion (none / 0) (#100)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:43:35 PM EST
    right, but a lot of people are thinking of it as an instruction.  We don't need you to do that is probably an indirect suggestion, but given the circumstances, people in general would take it as an instruction, given the source.

    Parent
    GZ said he took it as an instruction. (none / 0) (#133)
    by leftwig on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:30:15 PM EST
    The NEN operator who uttered the phrase said he is not allowed to give instructions.  

    Parent
    And the head of the neigborhood (5.00 / 2) (#153)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:18:22 PM EST
    testified their protocol is to call the police....not follow.

    Parent
    "neighborhoold watch" (none / 0) (#157)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:28:47 PM EST
    Has the pathologist who performed the autopsy (none / 0) (#163)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:03:17 PM EST
    testified yet?  Is the autopsy report a public document?

    Here you go oculus (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:23:04 PM EST
    Not testified yet and I read the (none / 0) (#168)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:57:01 PM EST
    autopsy report somewhere. I'm sure it's in the forum. I think this week will be a lot of forensics stuff, since we've gone through the eye and ear witnesses and the police, but no autopsy, dna, etc.

    Parent
    What are the lesser charges? (none / 0) (#171)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:18:10 PM EST
    The legal analyst on Channel 9 in FL said he's tried cases before Judge Nelson and she's very tough on sentencing. He said that if the jury came back with a verdict of manslaughter, the sentence would be 15 years and she can add special circumstance (the gun, I think) and add on 15 more years for a total of 30.

    Are there other lesser charges if anyone knows? I looked up negligent homicide sentences in FL and I don't remember exactly the sentences, but they were very long, also.

    Manslaughter (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:25:25 PM EST
    Special circumstances is that Martin was under 18, so what would be second degree felony becomes first degree.. Here are the relevant statutes..  776.041 Use of force by aggressor is out but the rest is in from what I understand.

    Parent
    Oh, ok, not the gun. (none / 0) (#178)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:27:49 PM EST
    Thank you again, Squeaky. I think I need to read more about the law and less about the case to understand this better.

    Parent
    Law (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:31:43 PM EST
    Here is an interesting case that explains the aggressor and self-defense complexities..  link

    Parent
    If I understand it right, this answered (none / 0) (#187)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:31:14 PM EST
    one of my questions on manslaughter or lesser charges. I read the manslaughter instruction in your first link for me, and I could see the jury coming back with that verdict.

    But, if they find it is self-defense, that seems to preclude finding him guilty of not just 2nd degree murder, but the lesser charges as well?

    Do I have that right?

    Parent

    More questions (none / 0) (#188)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:35:01 PM EST
    I read that the prosecution is calling Serino(sp?) the investigator who thought there should be a manslaughter charge. But then later, he told the FBI that he was pressured to recommend that, so that may be a wash.

    Can the defense call the original State's Attorney who chose not to file charges because of self-defense? Or do I have that wrong and he hadn't decided for sure yet? Can a SA be called to testify about a case he was original involved in?

    Serino (none / 0) (#196)
    by friendofinnocence on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:14:40 AM EST
    I can't wait for Serino to explain his DOA Capias.  Crump got a lot of mileage out of it (He never should have got out of the truck...), when one considers it was a document that had no legal standing because it wasn't signed by Wolfinger or anyone else.

    I really don't know what to make of Serino, so to finally get some answers will be nice.

    Parent

    It would seem that all such opinion (none / 0) (#198)
    by MKS on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:16:15 AM EST
    testimony would be irrelevent.   The jury gets to decide whether it was self-defense.

    What someone else, who is not an actual fact witness, thinks is the appropriate charge does not seem to be expert testimony.....But maybe this is okay in criminal cases in Florida.....

    Expert testimony about ballistics, police procedure, medical injuries, all seem like more standard expert witness testimony.

    What someone who was not at the scene thinks, why should that matter?

    Parent

    Pam Bondi (none / 0) (#199)
    by friendofinnocence on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:23:50 AM EST
    put Corey on the case and she chose to indict.  Because Bondi outranks Wolfinger, it wouldn't seem to me his opinion would matter.

    Parent
    Coming from a perspective of civil (none / 0) (#201)
    by MKS on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:44:53 AM EST
    litigation in California, there has been a lot of testimony about "possibilities," etc. that seem generally inadmissible speculation....

    In my opnion, limited as stated above, the Prosecution really let O'Mara get in a lot of questions that seemed objectionable.   During O'Mara's cross of the first officer on the scene, he asked him a bunch of questions that seemed to call for speculation.  Guy did object once, and the Judge sustained the objection, so I don't think I am off my rocker....But Guy just let O'Mara go on....The Judge seemed to be with the Prosecution here, but Guy just sat there while O'Mara completely coopted the witness...

    O'Mara was good, saw his opening and took it...Got to give him credit there.....

    So, I don't get what these other officials have to offer.  I suppose if they interviewed Zimmerman, they could get their observations of him....and what he said.  

    Parent

    I seem to recall an ASA was in Sanford staying in a hotel the night GZ shot TM.  I think it was Wolfinger but it's been a while.  If that was the case, maybe the defense can figure out a way to call him.

    I would love to hear his story regarding taking himself off the case for the good of blah blah...

    Parent

    It would be interesting (none / 0) (#203)
    by MKS on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:59:31 AM EST
    but I don't get how it would be legally relevant to the current case....Maybe somone with a good grasp of criminal law can explain this...

    Parent
    Questions for the lawyers (none / 0) (#205)
    by citizenjeff on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 01:14:40 AM EST
    Has all the discovery in the case been released to the public? Is it all viewable in one place? At this point, could the prosecution still argue that Zimmerman pulled his gun (or some such thing) before Trayvon hit Zimmerman, even though it has not so far produced any evidence that the gun somehow was a factor in initiating the physical aspect of the confrontation?

    Thanks in advance to anyone who might be kind enough to answer.

    We're over 200 comments (none / 0) (#210)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 05:09:43 AM EST
    this thread is now closed.