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Sunday Open Thread: Non-Zimmerman Topics

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:43:00 AM EST
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June went really fast. The Fourth of July is around the corner. I'm quite a bit behind at everything, due to my fascination with all things related to the George Zimmerman case.

For other news, you are on your own today. Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Sunday George Zimmerman Thread | Trayvon Martin's Cell Phone Records >

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    Sunday Open Thread: Non-Zimmerman Topics | 105 comments (105 topical)

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    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 53 (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by Dadler on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:45:39 AM EST
    Vol. 53 (link)

    And the rest of last week's toon cache if you missed any.

    Vol. 47

    Vol. 48

    Vol. 49

    Vol. 50

    Vol. 51

    Vol. 52

    Happy Sunday, my friends. Peace.

    Vol 51... (none / 0) (#2)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:49:59 AM EST
    potty humor and making fun of vegans...double right up my alley!

    You should send this work to the Village Voice...it's right up their alley too.

    Parent

    Thanks, my man (none / 0) (#3)
    by Dadler on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:52:10 AM EST
    I don't know what I'm doing with this sh*t but having a good time. Like Viv Savage said in SPINAL TAP, "Have a good time, all the time, that's my philosophy, Martin."

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#76)
    by John Shaft on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:44:26 AM EST
    for those, very amusing.

    Parent
    Gotta prop my brother-in-law (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Dadler on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:56:16 AM EST
    Scott Mayo, currently touring Europe with Sergio Mendes, but who also got to play with the Stones last night at the Glastonbury Festival. Sweet. With Mendes tonight at the same huge fest. He's got a new album out too. (link)

    Very Cool (none / 0) (#10)
    by bmaz on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:09:57 AM EST


    Parent
    NSA sez (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Edger on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:57:32 AM EST
    We have the whistleblower in custody.

    Aaron Hernandez's involvement in double murder (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Angel on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:04:09 AM EST
    being investigated.  SUV towed from his uncle's garage.

    Rumsfeld was right. (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by lentinel on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:27:35 AM EST
    Those stupid, stupid Europeans.
    Those pathetic denizens of old Europe.
    So behind the times.
    So not with it.

    First they decline to join us in our great adventure in Iraq.
    Well, let's let that go. Those cowardly terror-loving flunkies.

    But now, they're all aflutter because they found out that the USA! USA! USA! has been bugging them and they don't like it. They're asking stupid questions like is it necessary for America to bug their parliamentarians. Of course it is.

    They don't realize, as the majority of good wholesome Americans do, that this is but an inconvenience. Obama has said so, and he should know.

    But they complain and complain.
    They should go back where they came from.

    And they better damn well not (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:43:53 AM EST
    try spying on America. Or else!

    Parent
    Lentinel (none / 0) (#21)
    by Politalkix on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:36:40 AM EST
    Are you completely sure that all the bugging was done without the cooperation of German politicians or corporations?
    How are you so sure that the Germans and French do not use surveillance against Muslims living in Europe? IMO, muslims are more integrated with the rest of the population in American than Turks in Germany or North Africans in France. How are you so sure that all bugging of European Parliament politicians was not done with blessings of corporations like Volkswagen, Siemens, Vodafone, etc. These companies have offshored a lot of their operations to countries outside the European Union (United States, China, etc) and think that the European Union hinders "pro-growth" policies.
    The grass will always look greener on the other side to some of you. However, the world is a more complex place than some of you are imagining it to be. Let the facts come out before jumping up and down in glee. Don't be surprised if politicians in Europe get exposed as hypocrities during investigations, this is my early take on this subject.

    Parent
    Gee, (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by lentinel on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:15:36 AM EST
    Politalkix - the Germans and the French seem to be rather convinced that the bugging was done without their knowledge or consent.

    Did you read the link to what they have to say about it?
    And, even if you choose to conjecture and believe that European politicians or corporate entities collaborated with the US on this spying and snooping, the people of Europe have feelings about it - as well they should. They have been betrayed as we have been betrayed. We are the engine that drives this nightmarish foray into the Orwellian.

    Whatever the Germans and French might be doing with respect to Muslims in Europe is a totally different subject. I am concerned with what we are doing to our friends and ourselves.

    You can believe or disbelieve whatever you want. Saying that the world is complex is a totally meaningless bromide. It's like saying there is no right and no wrong, just grey.

    The subject for me, an American national, is the way our government treats its citizens. Secondarily, it is the way we treat our friends. Thirdly, it is the way we treat countries that are in the middle - who might be friendly if treated with respect. As it stands now, we treat everyone with contempt.

    I get the impression that for you, the spying, bugging, lying and duplicity perpetrated by our government, a fact that is undeniable imo, takes a back seat to the fact that a "29 year old hacker" is the one who let us in on it.

    To the rest of the world, including Russia and China as well as Europe, there is no doubt that what concerns them is what we are doing to them, not how they found out about it.

    Parent

    Pious baloney (2.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Politalkix on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:08:56 PM EST
    You seem to believe every word that European politicians seem to be saying but won't give the same pass to American politicians.
    We are a democracy and people elect the government that they like. Only a fringe among the American population believes like you that our government treats it people worse than other governments treat their people or our government treats people in other countries worse than other governments.
    Europe does not spend as much money on defense as we do because we have agreements with them to protect them. This is a fact. They could not even solve their own mess in Bosnia and begged us to intervene. They now want us to intervene in Syria. However, their politicians play to their domestic audience by pretending to be shocked at what America is doing. They also have a niche market among a section of the American left for echoing some of their hypocrisies.
    There has also been a real shift in tone in our foreign policy after BHO became the President. We have been treating all countries with respect. It is rare for an American President to say that he believes in American exceptionalism just as he suspects that the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism.
    There is another hypocrisy that is emblematic of a section of the American left. They pretend that they abhor the use of American power around the world but will gladly accept the benefits when it suits them. We pay a lot less for gas at our pumps than any other country in the world because we exercise our military power. Our economic strength is also directly related to our exercise of this military might. So next time when people like you lament that we are not taking care of our own people despite being such a rich country, I may have to remind you once again that we are a rich country only because we exercise our military power. Some other countries that are economically better off also have agreements with us to protect them, using our military (Japan, South Korea, may western European countries, Scandinavian countries, etc).
    As a country we have made a number of mistakes in our foreign policies in the past and have not always lived up to values we have preached. However, we have also done enormous good around the world by using our economic and military strength. It seems that some of you have a real problem acknowledging the good we have done and just want to harp on real or imagined "spying, bugging, lying and duplicity perpetrated by our government" just as some people in the extreme right will never acknowledge any mistakes we have made.
     

    Parent
    You like to put words in (5.00 / 5) (#28)
    by shoephone on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:34:46 PM EST
    other people's mouths.

    Here is what you attribute to lentinel:

    Only a fringe among the American population believes like you that our government treats it people worse than other governments treat their people or our government treats people in other countries worse than other governments.

    Here is what lentinel actually said:

    Whatever the Germans and French might be doing with respect to Muslims in Europe is a totally different subject. I am concerned with what we are doing to our friends and ourselves.

    Not the same at all.

    And you really are hellbent on using more of that "you're in the fringe" nonsense, and equating civil libertarians with extreme right-wingers.

    Parent

    Buncha Hooey (5.00 / 6) (#29)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:34:53 PM EST
    Our economic strength is also directly related to our exercise of this military might. So next time when people like you lament that we are not taking care of our own people despite being such a rich country, I may have to remind you once again that we are a rich country only because we exercise our military power.

    What a cynical, destructive view.  We were a rich country long before we were a military power because we had untouched resources to exploit.

    The Fourth amendment is one sentence.  The NSA is in violation of every word of it.

    When you brag about US military might, let me ask you whether you ever served in uniform.  I did, E-5, Honorable Discharge.  

    Once the United States had moral authority, but now you tell us that moral authority is less important than the boot on the neck.  I find that attitude disgusting, especially so if you never served but want others to provide that service.

    Parent

    Bunch of hooey stuck on you (none / 0) (#30)
    by Politalkix on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:29:56 PM EST
    Before we had military power (before WW1) we did not have social programs-no social security, medicare, Medicaid. We did not let non-white immigrants into the country. The gilded age in America was not great for most people-no labor laws, etc. Times are different now.

    We have been interfering in other countries affairs for a very long time. For eg: people in Central or South America do not like American foreign policy, not because of what BHO is doing but because of what Teddy Roosevelt did more than a century ago and what other Presidents did during the cold war. People in Iran are suspicious of our motives because of what happened in the 1950s. If you really believe that once the US had moral authority but does not have it now, I will have a bridge to sell you. Things of the past always look golden.

    You are a Johnny come lately to arguents here. I have repeatedly said that I believe the United States should only get involved in wars if it can be morally justified. Others in TL have always supported wars based on "national interest". However, as a country, our foreign policy regarding war in the past have always been based on "national interest"; you must be really uninformed to imagine that it was always based on "moral authority" and things have changed now.

    Long before we became a military power, we also had slavery and we destroyed native Americans. How does that account in your non-"cynical", "moral authority" chapters! Save all the uninformed crap that you are serving for yourself!

    Parent

    Huh? (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 01:46:45 PM EST
    Before we had military power (before WW1) we did not have social programs-no social security, medicare, Medicaid. We did not let non-white immigrants into the country. The gilded age in America was not great for most people-no labor laws, etc. Times are different now.

    Duh.  Thanks for the history lesson.

    Not.

    Are you suggesting that social programs are a RESULT of our overdeveloped military?  Let me remind you that they started during the Great Depression, before we were a world military power, at a time when Germany had the most powerful military engine in the world.  Germany used that military might to obliterate civil rights, so let's not assume that rights accompany a powerful military establishment.

    I noticed that you punted on the question of your own service.  A real veteran would have rubbed his service in my face for that remark, so the default mode is that you are not.  Why is your opinion on the use of the military more valid than that of a veteran?

    Parent

    Sometimes we help (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:58:14 PM EST
    Recently though mostly damage.  Iraq was nothing but damage, Afghanistan is a gamble, it was a stabilization I thought we had to at least make an effort at but is a gamble.  That was completely phucked up too though by the Bush administration, and they made any sort of success for the Obama administration practically impossible.

    80% of the defense dollar is projected to go towards care of veterans at this point.  So much money caring for brokenness that never needed to happen to defend our civilians.  I think back to stop-loss, people who were overtaxed trying to get out and forced into more psychological brokenness....the surge, stay the course.  I think our military mindset is still broken, and everything is powering down now, but we still don't have a full damage assessment.  When those realities set in, that will get us clearer picture of what fight and might costs us and buys us.

    Dubya Bush keeps waiting for history to finally rule in his favor and that is never going to happen.  He is experiencing a sort of lull right now, but it is just a lull.

    Parent

    I can (5.00 / 5) (#47)
    by lentinel on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:35:31 PM EST
    only tell you what people are feeling.

    To tell you the truth, your tone is so nasty that I don't feel I can have a conversation with you.

    You presume I have an agenda and take "glee" in the fact that people in Europe are appalled about what they have found out about Obama and what our government is doing.

    I take no glee in any of it.

    I am saddened by all of it.

    Parent

    You mean people buy American (none / 0) (#62)
    by observed on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:28:05 PM EST
    because of our military might? Are they afraid of invasions if they don't?!


    Parent
    : D (none / 0) (#107)
    by melamineinNY on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 07:34:03 PM EST
    LOL "They should go back where they came from."

    Parent
    Tragedy in Arizona: (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 03:07:04 AM EST
    State officials confirmed a few hours ago that 19 members of a 20-person crew of state wildland firefighters were killed this afternoon about 40 miles NW of Phoenix, just outside the rural mountain community of Yarnell. Half the town has since been destroyed by the fire.

    Apparently, the 2,000-acre wildfire they had been struggling to contain suddenly flared out of control and quickly overtook them before they could withdraw to safety. 18 were members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots team.

    The disaster represents the nation's biggest loss of life for firefighters since 1933, and the worst since the Storm King Mountain wildfire near Glenwood Springs, CO claimed the lives of 14 firefighters in July 1994.

    My sincere condolences to surviving family and friends.

    I just saw their spokesman (none / 0) (#81)
    by Teresa on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 07:27:58 AM EST
    on TV. He looked so devastated, exhausted, as if he'd cried all night. I cannot imagine losing 19 coworkers.

    What a horrible tragedy.

    Parent

    Oh no! (none / 0) (#99)
    by sj on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 10:58:17 AM EST
    That is so tragic and horrible.

    Parent
    Send me good vibes (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by Teresa on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 07:54:27 AM EST
    Birthdays have never mattered much to me, except 16, 18 and 21. This is my first one without my mom and I'm really upset. I guess I have to go through each holiday, birthday, etc at least once to get over this.

    I know a lot of you have been in my shoes, so I'm sorry if I bring up sad thoughts to you. I'm just feeling a little overcome with thoughts of her. I think I need counselling over what we went through.

    Also, I'm getting old!

    I'm sorry you're going through this, (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:27:50 AM EST
    Teresa; seems kind of shallow to be wishing you a happy birthday, given your loss, but there is another way to look at it: you can celebrate the person your mother helped you to be, which is just as much a way to honor her memory as it is to honor yourself.

    From what you've said here, I gather that it's been a pretty tough year for you, with a lot of loss in other areas of your life.  I think when that kind of thing happens, and the "big picture" just looks so damn bleak, it forces us to focus a little more on the smaller things, the moment-to-moment things, in which there is joy to be found.  And if not joy, exactly, then some pleasure, a sense of satisfaction, even contentment.  Only you know what kinds of things give you that, and if your heart is open to feeling something good, I do believe good will come to you.

    If you have a cake, blow out all the candles and know that many here at TL are wishing good things for you!

    Parent

    Sending vibes your way (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:33:04 AM EST
    May you have a peaceful and enlightening day. Your mom would want you to live it up, so please do.

    Parent
    Firsts are always hard (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by TeresaInPa on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:37:04 AM EST
    Call me crazy, but I think your Mom is still there. It's just too bad you can not see and hear her.  You have to find new ways to make those days count, but it does get easier, mush easier after the first one is out of the way.
    If you think you need to see a therapist and you feel depressed then definitely see one. I don't know or need to know if you have ever gone before, but I did years ago and she was so helpful with sorting out some childhood stuff.

    Parent
    Yes indeed... (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 11:26:08 AM EST
    only the body dies...the spirit lives forever.

    My father is with me everyday...heart, mind, and soul.

    Hang in there T, it does get easier.  

    Parent

    ummm (none / 0) (#90)
    by TeresaInPa on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:37:46 AM EST
    much easier

    Parent
    Sending Good Vibes (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:39:41 AM EST
    HAPPY BIRTHDAY TERESA!!!

    Glad you were born. Your wisdom and kindness will only continue to blossom and grow. Sorry that your mother will not be joining you in the flesh, but you will always have her with you in your heart.

    Parent

    I always think mine is with me (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:47:23 AM EST
    and spending the day with me. It makes me smile. Hopefully, you will get to that place next year. The first year is the hardest.

    Happy Birthday, and thank you for sharing this.

    Parent

    Sending you good vibes, Teresa. (5.00 / 3) (#93)
    by Angel on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:52:12 AM EST
    Our family lost a special member two years ago and we are just now getting to the point where we can talk about him without crying.  It does get easier.  Peace and love to you and your family.

    Parent
    Happy Birthday Teresa (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:55:49 AM EST
    Hope you can surround yourself with memories of the good times until you feel her with you in your heart.

    Parent
    Aww, the first year really is (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by shoephone on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 09:12:30 AM EST
    the toughest. I wish you the best birthday you can have in these circumstances, Teresa. Be easy on yourself. Your mom would want you to enjoy your special day. After all, it was a special day for her too!

    Parent
    Happy birthday! (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 09:52:38 AM EST
    Your mom is with you.  Probably going to be rolling her eyes and smiling with all the trouble you will get into today.  :)

    Parent
    Oh honey (5.00 / 3) (#98)
    by sj on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 10:37:40 AM EST
    Happy birthday. The first year really IS the hardest. Eventually you'll build enough scar tissue and it won't hurt so much, and the good memories will start feeling good again.

    If you need some special attention, I have a suggestion. I don't know if you have a Daily Kos account, but there is a group with a weekly discussion called The Grieving Room. The people there will all understand what you are going through. I think the weekly discussion is either on Tuesdays or Wednesday.

    Peace to you.

    Parent

    Good vibes (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by Zorba on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 11:43:01 AM EST
    are on their way to you.  Your mother is still with you.  I lost mine nine years ago, and I still feel her presence.
    Peace be with you, my sister.  Namaste.

    Parent
    You guys are so awesome! (5.00 / 3) (#104)
    by Teresa on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:28:57 PM EST
    Thank you to each of you. I'm pretty shy in real life, (unless I'm at a party :) ), and I truly consider you all my friends.

    You're definitely the only ones I talk politics with since I'm surrounded by the bad guys.

    All of you mean a lot to me, and I think that's why I came back here, because I consider you friends.

    I can laugh about memories of my brother and my dad, so I know that time will come. My mom died in a horrible, to me, way. She fell watering her flowers and had a massive brain bleed and over eight months she gradually got where our roles were reversed. I had to take care of her as if she were a small child. She couldn't eat, drink or anything without me. I think that changing of the roles is what has made this so difficult.

    Life can be sad, but memories keep those we love and know alive, I do know that. She was hilarious in real life, so I know I have many laughs in my future! Thank you all again, for caring. It means a lot and I know most of you have been in my shoes. It happens to all of us eventually.

    Parent

    And, things are looking up already (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by NYShooter on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 03:51:15 PM EST
    Look,
    I broke my "no-post" pledge just for you, and, in honor of your birthday, and your mom. No one else could do it, not George Zimmerman, or even the nameless "Deleting Diva."

    So, happy birthday to a very special person, on a very special day. And, yes, it will get much, much easier. It's really amazing how these things just happen, how all those tears just magically become smiles.

    And, The Shooter never lies..:)

    (slinking back into my cave......)


    Parent

    Wait... what? (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by sj on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 04:19:18 PM EST
    Seriously?  That had to be on a Zimmerman thread since those are the only ones I never read.

    Say it ain't so, Shooter and that I read this wrong and you are simply taking a sabbatical.

    Parent

    Someone Posted This... (none / 0) (#101)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 11:19:25 AM EST
    ...the other day and it is hysterical, I think it will put a smile on your face.

    Parent
    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 54 (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:29:52 AM EST
    Manic Monday. Have a great week, peeps. (link)

    Google and Facebook are collecting (1.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Politalkix on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:17:57 PM EST
    more personal information than anyone imagines and are processing it. But google is our friend
    :-)!
    link

    Who ever claimed "google is our friend"? (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by shoephone on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:30:43 AM EST
    Only you, so far.

    Parent
    FYI: duckduckgo is my friend (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by shoephone on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 01:29:08 AM EST
    duckduckgo is my internet search engine of choice. It doesn't track my searches, and doesn't bombard me with annoying ads. Screw google.

    Parent
    I have often said (none / 0) (#88)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:35:19 AM EST
    google is "my" friend. The money it has saved me over the years warrants that.

    Parent
    Google... (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 11:11:10 AM EST
    ...is my friend, and I control what Google collects.  And, I would add, that Google is a corporation that at most, may sell me something I don't need.  The horror...

    Whereas, Uncle Sam has infintely more powers of the people it's spying on, lying about it, and at most can, legally drop a bomb on me, snatch me off the streets and stick me in a dark hole with no trial, stick me on the no fly list, and a million other things Google can not do.

    But most importantly I cannot opt out and I am forced to fund it.

    Your repetitive comparison is simply ridiculous, much like all of arguments that the government tracking my behavior is no big deal.  It is, that is why this is a firestorm.

    Pretty sure all those soldiers didn't die on the battlefields so the their government could spy on them without their knowledge.  Pretty sure that used to be a common trait in the enemies we fought, but now Stalin type surveillance gets defended by scared little men/women who just can't seem to wrap their heads around how wrong it truly is.

    But hey it's just like what Google does, right ?

    Parent

    "Hey baby... (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:01:37 AM EST
    It's the 4th of July"

    A beautiful song for a beautiful holiday...sucks that it falls on Thursday this year...I propose we make it a week long!

    Sweet. (none / 0) (#11)
    by Angel on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:13:44 AM EST
    He reminds me of a younger Dale Watson, pic here.

    Parent
    They do look similar... (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:30:36 AM EST
    that's an old video (if the 80's haircuts weren't a clue;), my main man Dave Alvin is getting up there now.

    Here's another one of his, written by Tom Russell, that fits Talkleft..."Blue Wing".  Gets me every time.

    He had a blue wing tattooed on his shoulder
    Well, it might have been a bluebird, I don't know
    but he'd get stone drunk and talk about Alaska
    The salmon boats and 45 below
    Well, he got that blue wing up in Walla Walla
    and his cellmate there was a Little Willy John
    and Willie, he was once a great blues singer
    so Wing & Willie wrote him up a song

    They sang, it's dark in here, can't see the light
    but I look at this blue wing when I close my eyes
    and I fly away, beyond these walls
    up above the clouds, where the rain don't fall
    on a poor man's dreams



    Parent
    I'd love to be on the dance floor for this one. (none / 0) (#16)
    by Angel on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:42:30 AM EST
    A good pick me up on a Sunday morning.

    Parent
    Good choice! (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:00:57 AM EST
    The Blasters cook!

    Parent
    kdog, I think we were friends in a previous life. (none / 0) (#19)
    by Angel on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:17:13 AM EST


    Parent
    From Texas (none / 0) (#8)
    by jbindc on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:07:15 AM EST
    A catalog of death row inmates' last words.

    And here's the website of all their last statements.

    Some are thoughtful, some are rambling. Some still proclam their innocence, many admit their guilt and ask for forgiveness. All are very interesting and very poignant.

    "some still proclaim their innocence" (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by TeresaInPa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:18:37 AM EST
    No doubt some of them are telling the truth. That is just one of the reasons I am against the death penalty.  I am debating if I have the heart to follow that link.

    Parent
    Maybe they are (none / 0) (#20)
    by jbindc on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:46:47 AM EST
    But what was surprising is how many admitted it and said they were sorry to the victims' loved ones.

    Parent
    Aren't most murders (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by TeresaInPa on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 06:05:32 AM EST
    either a crime of passion or impulsive behavior brought on by drugs or drunken behavior, people caught up in crazy situations?  I can see how people would be able to step back and feel real remorse.  

    Parent
    Saw "The Heat" yesterday (none / 0) (#9)
    by TeresaInPa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:07:41 AM EST
    It was so funny.  I laughed out loud for real and so did all the other people in the theater.  I love Sandra Bullock, but she had her work cut out for her keeping up with Melissa McCarthy who is just so funny you wish she lived next door to you.

    They have set this up for sequels and I will definitely go see them. Don't expect the script to be smart, it's not. It's not like "Frasier" smart comedy.  It's a buddy movie and the relationship between the two women plus the jokes is what makes it work.

    I need some laughs! (none / 0) (#12)
    by Angel on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:15:48 AM EST
    Think I'll check this one out as I'm a fan of both women.

    Parent
    Thanks - the ads make me laugh (none / 0) (#23)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:03:37 AM EST
    so I was hoping those weren't the only funny moments. I will see it for sure. That seems like some great chemistry to me.

    Parent
    "The Heat" was hysterical (none / 0) (#50)
    by TycheSD on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:17:43 PM EST
    I'm kind of a comedy snob (I don't find a lot of stuff funny that other people do), but this movie had the goods.  These two ladies were great together.  It reminded me somewhat of "I Love Lucy" in that a lot of the comedy was very physical.  I don't think I ever laughed out loud at Lucy like I did at Bullock and McCarthy though.

    Parent
    Set up for sequels, huh? (none / 0) (#63)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:42:50 PM EST
    No surprise there, Hollywood being the land of sequels and remakes that it is.

    But I agree with you, though -- Melissa McCarthy is arguably the best comic actress in show biz right now. "The Heat" is a hoot to watch, mostly due to her. Pretty much all Sandra Bullock had to do was react to and play off McCarthy. And sometimes, I really had to marvel how she managed to keep a straight face while doing so.

    Funny, but I've never much cared for McCarthy's characters on television, i.e. "Mike & Molly," who seem constrained -- but on the big screen she just tears it up.

    Parent

    yeah, I don't watch her show (none / 0) (#80)
    by TeresaInPa on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 06:22:34 AM EST
    on TV.  I have seen her on other shows and she is good but I am not much for watching those shows.  I agree that she has to be unrestrained.  Also setting the movie in Boston was a great idea.  Everybody gets to do that accent and that alone was good for a lot of jokes.

    Parent
    Not in Uganda but in Russia (none / 0) (#22)
    by Politalkix on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:47:17 AM EST
    link

    Ecuador caves: "No mas, no mas:" (none / 0) (#26)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:25:30 PM EST
    Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa told The Associated Press Sunday [that] he had no idea Snowden's intended destination was Ecuador when he fled Hong Kong for Russia last week. He said the Ecuadorean consul in London committed "a serious error" without consulting any officials in Ecuador's capital when the consul issued a letter of safe passage for Snowden. Without entirely closing the door to Snowden, whom Ecuadorean authorities strongly praised earlier in the week, Correa appeared to be telegraphing that it's unlikely the 30-year-old leaker will ever end up in Ecuador. He repeatedly emphasized the importance of the U.S. legal process and praised Vice President Joe Biden for what he described as a courteous and appreciated half-hour call about the Snowden case on Friday.

    BIden tightened the noose (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by shoephone on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 12:27:16 PM EST
    around Correa's neck.

    Parent
    Doesn't really need to tighten it (none / 0) (#34)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:07:46 PM EST
    Ecuadorean law says Snowden would have to be on Ecuadorean soil or at an Ecuadorean embassy to apply. Neither looks possible at this time.

    His self-imposed jail cell could be a hotel room in the Moscow airport, just as Assange is essentially jailed inside the Ecuadorean embassy in London. Both may end up living the life of Mehran Karimi Nasseri with nowhere to go and no country to call home. The difference of course was Nasseri wasn't wanted and had a little more area to roam.

    Parent

    Julian Assange (none / 0) (#97)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 10:18:32 AM EST
    isn't helping.

    In a rare interview on Sunday's This Week, WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange didn't say where NSA leaker Edward Snowden is, and didn't say where he was immediately going. But he did say one thing quite clearly: He, Julian Assange, is a lot like Edward Snowden.

    Asked by host George Stephanopoulos about Snowden's future, Assange said that Snowden's "situation is very similar to the situation that I face." He said that, like WikiLeaks, Snowden is being faced with rhetoric about the dangers of leaks that, for WikiLeaks, were "all proved to be false."

    Faced with a question about a leaked quote in TIME Magazine, where Assange said that with his WikiLeaks revelations he hoped to bring about "the total annihilation of the current U.S. regime" and if that is still his goal today, Assange denied that he ever said that, with a sterling defense of "Yeah, well, I mean TIME Magazine."

    The really ominous part of the interview came when Assange was asked whether or not he possessed Snowden's NSA documents: "Look, there is no stopping the publishing process at this stage. Great care has been taken to make sure Mr. Snowden cannot be pressured by any state to stop the publication process."

    But there are serious problems with the Julian Assange Takeover, and they are quickly boiling up. Last week, Ecuador's President Rafael Correa slowed down Snowden's asylum process because he was worried that the WikiLeaks leader was taking over the role of his country's government. The Guardian reported that Correa killed a temporary travel document that would have helped get Snowden out of the Moscow airport where he has reportedly been staying for the last week. In leaked communications, Ecuador officials seemed bitter by how much attention Assange was taking, with a Ecuador's U.S. ambassador telling a presidential spokesman "I suggest talking to Assange to better control the communications. From outside, [Assange] appears to be running the show."



    Parent
    Mother Jones article from 1994 (none / 0) (#32)
    by Politalkix on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:35:19 PM EST
    It will explain why many of us are not surprised about the nature of espionage that is being reported to have been conducted in the last decade.
    link

    Oy (5.00 / 4) (#35)
    by sj on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:17:33 PM EST
    Because you are "not surprised" that make it right?

    Parent
    Again useless rhetoric from you (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Politalkix on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:47:02 PM EST
    Only the very naïve do not understand that our allies & rivals are conducting the same kind of economic espionage against us. So what is the American government supposed to do? Just sit back and let other countries spy on our technologies w(ithout us doing the same), duplicate them and lure our jobs away with low labor costs? Our society is a lot more open than any other society in the world. Students from any part of the world come to study in our Universities and our work force is made up of people of very diverse national origins. None of our economic rivals (China, Germany, Russia, Japan, etc) have such open societies.
    The government has a responsibility to protect its national interests (in the article that I posted, it specifically mentioned that the Japanese could buy some technologies from us but we could not buy from them because their laws prevented it).
    What is "right" under these circumstances becomes a more complex question because the government has a responsibility in protecting the interests of its people and all countries do not play using the same rules. I am not against opening up a debate regarding what the limits of espionage should be, however it is ridiculous to pretend that we should not be looking out for our own interests when everybody else is doing the same.
    When all investigation is completed, it may turn out that the Americans spied on the Germans to obtain alternative energy technology, the Chinese and Russians spied on us to be able to make airplanes and the Germans and French spied on us to steal telecommunications or nanotechnology designs and all this ruckus is about nothing but gamesmanship from various governments trying to press negotiating advantages.

     

    Parent

    Stunningly absent from your (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Anne on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:13:28 PM EST
    comments is any discussion about the right of the government to have access to all of our personal information.

    You want to talk about government espionage directed at gaining economic advantage; the rest of us are focused on the government sucking up vast quantities of personal information on individuals.

    Parent

    We can get to that argument (none / 0) (#46)
    by Politalkix on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:31:42 PM EST
    once Snowden releases the kind of "vast quantities of personal information the government is sucking" and processing from American citizens.
    At this time he has only released information regarding how the NSA has hacked into computers in China and Hong Kong and bugged European Union buildings.
    Let us not get too ahead in this debate without facts.

    Parent
    What are you talking about? (5.00 / 5) (#48)
    by Anne on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:39:22 PM EST
    There has been a lot of information released on what the NSA is doing with respect to personal information.

    Like here:  

    The Obama administration for more than two years permitted the National Security Agency to continue collecting vast amounts of records detailing the email and internet usage of Americans, according to secret documents obtained by the Guardian.

    The documents indicate that under the program, launched in 2001, a federal judge sitting on the secret surveillance panel called the Fisa court would approve a bulk collection order for internet metadata "every 90 days". A senior administration official confirmed the program, stating that it ended in 2011.

    The collection of these records began under the Bush administration's wide-ranging warrantless surveillance program, collectively known by the NSA codename Stellar Wind.

    And here:

    The National Security Agency is currently collecting the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers, under a top secret court order issued in April.

    The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on an "ongoing, daily basis" to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries.

    The document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of US citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk - regardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing.

    At this stage I'm actually a little embarrassed for you, and would suggest that you quit digging the hole you're in any deeper, and take some time to catch up with the information that's out there before you embarrass yourself any further.

    Parent

    Oh Meta-data! (none / 0) (#49)
    by Politalkix on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:54:01 PM EST
    We went through this discussion before. Christinep also participated in this discussion. Nothing was illegal or unconstitutional in the way the data was collected. I even informed that if you don't like the law, work towards changing the law (as it happened in Germany). To me data storage is just data storage. It can be used for both good and bad (as I have already indicated).
    You don't have to feel "embarrassed for me" because I do not subscribe to your point of view on this subject. I can take the same sneering attitude towards you and let you know that I feel embarrassed for you because you think national debt is not an issue at all or you think that you can have single payer health care without compromising privacy. We have differences in opinion, that is all there is to it.


    Parent
    Your opinion - heh (5.00 / 5) (#53)
    by Yman on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:53:20 PM EST
    We went through this discussion before. Christinep also participated in this discussion. Nothing was illegal or unconstitutional in the way the data was collected.

    Gives new meaning to the phrase - "FWIW".

    Parent
    Ha. Made me laugh out loud. Good one, Yman! (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by Angel on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:54:59 PM EST


    Parent
    BTW (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by Yman on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:59:19 PM EST
    I even informed that if you don't like the law, work towards changing the law (as it happened in Germany).

    You stated that "Nothing was illegal or unconstitutional in the way the data was collected."  Then you stated "I even informed that if you don't like the law, work towards changing the law (as it happened in Germany)."

    1.  You haven't the slightest clue whether anything illegal or unconstitutional was done, and

    2.  The law in Germany was, in fact, declared unconstitutional.

    Care to try again?

    Parent
    Shoephone, Lentinel, Anne (none / 0) (#33)
    by Politalkix on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 02:54:08 PM EST
    I will await your response to the Mother Jones article that I posted.
    Really want to know how shocked you are that the CIA was being used for economic espionage against our allies in the 1990s. :-).

    Parent
    Is being shocked some kind of (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Anne on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:35:07 PM EST
    requirement for something?  If I was shocked, I would probably be deemed naive, and if I wasn't, what then?  Is failing to be shocked a de facto acceptance of what went on then or is going on now?  Because if that's where you're headed with this, let me just say that I don't believe that one has to follow from the other.

    I'm not particularly shocked or surprised to find that the CIA was essentially embedded in the auto industry, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, or approve of it - nor does it mean that I have to accept the significantly expanded extent of it.

    And how, exactly, do you draw any meaningful equivalence between corporate espionage, and the wholesale vacuuming up of data on individuals by the government?


    Parent

    Stunning, how the phony arguments (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by shoephone on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 03:49:51 PM EST
    start piling up, huh?

    "I'm shocked, shocked! to find gambling going on in this establishment!"

    I think that's probably how "shocked" most Americans are to hear that our government has been spying on us, with impunity, for lo these many years.

    Anyone who DIDN'T assume 9/11 gave the authoritarians the grandest excuse ever to violate our constitutional rights is someone who's been fast asleep for the past 12 years..

    Parent

    Germany was also storing the meta-data (none / 0) (#40)
    by Politalkix on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:08:01 PM EST
    of all its citizens during 2009 or 2010 (in the timeframe the Snowden release indicated that the NSA had spied on European Union meetings), based on a European Union directive from 2006.
    And Germany did not even have 9/11 !

    Parent
    It isn't my place to fight with Germany (5.00 / 6) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:13:49 PM EST
    One on one over its intel collections of its citizens.  That is for Geman citizens to argue and fight about and for.  It is for me to take on my government for what it does illegally to its citizens, and for its international policies that destroy peace and peace of mind because that directly affects my well being.

    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 6) (#44)
    by Yman on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:21:20 PM EST
    Not to mention a little factoid that Politalkix forgot to mention - Germany has already fought (and won) this fight.

    Parent
    MT (none / 0) (#65)
    by Politalkix on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:17:27 PM EST
    If you know that this government has done something "illegal" to its citizens let us know.
    I have not read anything of that kind yet.
    As far as international policies are concerned, this current administration has only worked to close out wars started by previous administrations and is trying to give diplomacy a chance wherever possible. Unfortunately the Snowden leaks serve to strengthen the hands of hardliners in every country. HRC thought that she had "reset" our relationship with Russia.  McCain was mocking the relationship today and saying that it was reset to the year, 1955. Schumer agreed with McCain that Russia must "pay a price".
    The Russians are also indulging in full cold war rhetoric. If the 2016 elections turns out to be a referendum on the current administration's foreign policy-how diplomacy and the aversion to war, strengthened China and Russia and made Latin American leaders thumb their noses at us but did not win us any friends, we will be electing the most hawkish candidate that runs, once again. Neocon foreign policy will get new life and will be revived from the dumpster. This is my opinion. I do not know how that is not going to destroy your peace of mind.
    Let us see how all of this ends. You will have your opinion while I have mine.

    Parent
    Oh gosh, Schumer and McCain say so... (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by shoephone on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:36:37 AM EST
    That means what, exactly? McCain is a crazy, bitter old fart, and Schumer is a total fake who's got Wall Street so far up his a$$, even Ex-Lax won't help.

    Yeah. Let's follow whatever those two say.

    Parent

    I think that the evidence that the citizens (none / 0) (#68)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:40:10 PM EST
    of the United States have been illegally tapped, traced, documented, and taped overwhelms any evidence that exists to counter the current allegations with their supporting documents.

    Everyone does not have hold the same opinions in the face of evidence though.  The Zimmerman threads make that pretty clear :)

    Parent

    Thank you for bringing that up (5.00 / 5) (#43)
    by Yman on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:17:55 PM EST
    Germany is a great example.  In fact, Germany was storing metadata back then.  And what was the result?

    "Germans Loved Obama. Now We Don't Trust Him."

    This "preventive measure" was met with huge opposition in Germany. Lawyers, journalists, doctors, unions and civil liberties activists started to protest. In 2008, almost 35,000 people signed on to a constitutional challenge to the law. In Berlin, tens of thousands of people took to the streets to protest data retention. In the end, the Constitutional Court ruled that the implementation of the European Union directive was, in fact, unconstitutional.

    In Germany, whenever the government begins to infringe on individual freedom, society stands up. Given our history, we Germans are not willing to trade in our liberty for potentially better security...

    DURING Mr. Obama's presidency, no American political debate has received as much attention in Germany as the N.S.A. Prism program. People are beginning to second-guess the belief that digital communication stays private. It changes both our perception of communication and our trust in Mr. Obama.



    Parent
    And the German courts ... (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Yman on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:15:45 PM EST
    ... said the law (and the storage of the data) was unconstitutional.  Yet you, without even knowing all the facts - claim the US was entirely legal and constitutional.

    Funny stuff.

    Parent

    Why is it (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:21:51 PM EST
    that each of you take a side arguing that it's legal or not legal in this country, while each of you also acknowledge that you don't know whether it's legal or not?

    Parent
    I'll let you know (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Yman on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 06:32:38 PM EST
    ... as soon as you point out where I said it was illegal/unconstitutional.

    Parent
    Sorry (none / 0) (#59)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:05:27 PM EST
    thought you were one of the many saying it was illegal.

    Parent
    I don't know enough about it (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by Yman on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:25:44 PM EST
    ... to have a strong opinion - I don't think anyone in the general public does.

    That being said, I would like to see hearings and a court challenge to the law.

    Parent

    The FISA court, in 2011, said it was illegal (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by shoephone on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:32:38 AM EST
    Too bad we dirty f*cking hippies aren't being permitted to see the details of that 86-page decision.

    Parent
    I think what most of us (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by Anne on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:26:00 PM EST
    have a problem with is the way in which the government has worked to stymie any real oversight, not to mention any litigation to challenge these programs. Anytime there's a challenge, the government says, "you will never have standing to sue because we are never going to let you have enough information to be able to make a case."

    It's become a closed-loop system that we, the people, have been denied access to, and where our personal information is concerned, that's just wrong.

    If the government thinks I have info that they need, let them get a warrant, and let me have an opportunity to argue why the information shouldn't be released.

    Parent

    heh (none / 0) (#45)
    by Edger on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 04:22:34 PM EST
    frustrated NSA guy

    Tsarnaev indictment not being talked about (none / 0) (#51)
    by TycheSD on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:21:34 PM EST
    I'm not sure what to make of it, but the Tsarnaev indictment has not drawn much, if any, commentary by legal experts and others.  Maybe there's so much other stuff going on that people's attention is divided.  Or maybe the indictment was so powerful that it's hard to criticize the prosecution's case.  I really wanted to get the opinion of some legal experts (or anybody) about the indictment, the strength of the government's case, and the likelihood that this case will go to trial.  Jeralyn?  Anybody?

    Where is jeffinalabama and (none / 0) (#52)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 05:46:59 PM EST
    Hawkeye? Does anyone know? I read Jeff's diaries and know about his health issues. It looks like they last posted in the spring.

    Their comments didn't indicate they were leaving the site for any reason, so I'm just wondering/worrying about them.

    MileHi... (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 07:52:45 AM EST
    has health issues too...I hope all is well with both.

    Check in fellas!

    Parent

    I was wondering the same thing. (none / 0) (#64)
    by observed on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:13:25 PM EST
    Also, where is BTD? I assume that's not a mystery, but I don't know myself.

    Parent
    I believe (none / 0) (#69)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:43:49 PM EST
    he said he would be AWOL until the end of Zimmermanpalooza

    Parent
    We could have a new Conrgress before that! (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by observed on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 11:57:59 PM EST


    Parent
    BTD posted at DK today. (none / 0) (#70)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 10:52:07 PM EST


    Parent
    Deutsche Welle article regarding espionage (none / 0) (#66)
    by Politalkix on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:17:06 PM EST
    link

    Sunday Open Thread: Non-Zimmerman Topics | 105 comments (105 topical)

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