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DOJ Report Confirms Ferguson's Racially Biased Policing

By Jeralyn, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 08:40:00 AM EST
Tags: Ferguson, Biased Policing (all tags)
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DOJ's report on its six month investigation into police practices in Ferguson, MO will be released today. Here's what it finds, according to the New York Times.

The Ferguson Police Department was routinely violating the constitutional rights of its black residents.

Ferguson's population is one-third white.

85 percent of traffic stops, 90 percent of tickets and 93 percent of arrests. In cases like jaywalking, which often hinge on police discretion, blacks accounted for 95 percent of all arrests.

This is not just a Ferguson problem, but a national problem. You see it every day in courtrooms across America. [More...]

A second report is expected to be released tomorrow absolving Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown.

Racial disparity in the criminal justice system is a systemic problem that permeates the entire criminal justice system, from investigative stops by police and bail after arrest through sentencing. I hope the media keeps the spotlight on it for longer than a day.

Congress can begin by passing the End Racial Profiling Act, which it should have done in 2013. Not because of Trayvon Martin or Michael Brown, or any one person, about whom public opinion will always be divided, but because racial inequality and economic injustice have a long history in the United States. Equal justice for all should be everyone's goal.

Check out the Equal Justice Initiative, its timeline and the incredible photos in its 2013 calendar.
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    DOJ Report Confirms Ferguson's Racially Biased Policing | 175 comments (175 topical)

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    Gambling? In Casablanca? (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:39:56 AM EST
    Mais non!

    So how does one justify this nugget: (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by CST on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 10:10:49 AM EST
    "Minor, largely discretionary offenses such as disturbing the peace and jaywalking were brought almost exclusively against blacks. When whites were charged with these crimes, they were 68 percent more likely to have their cases dismissed, the Justice Department found."

    Maybe this is just the Boston coming out in me but I can't even fathom someone getting arrested for jaywalking.

    Are you thinking of jaywalking... (none / 0) (#113)
    by unitron on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 12:43:10 PM EST
    ...as just crossing the street in the middle of the block?

    Apparently a lot of others are using it to mean any and all pedestrian activity in the roadway, including walking down the center line.

    Parent

    just some context (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by CST on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 01:33:31 PM EST
    The fine for jaywalking in MA is $1.  That would apply to any kind of jaywalking.

    And no, you won't actually get a ticket, because it's not worth $1 to print the paper.

    And sure, you might argue that people in MA jaywalk excessively, you might even have a point.  But we don't kill more pedestrians, MA is low in pedestrian deaths nationally.

    In a lot of places, jaywalking is a necessity due to lack of sidewalks.  In certain circles of transportation planning, jaywalking is actually seen as a plus.  Having pedestrians in the road slows traffic down and actually makes things safer for both vehicles and pedestrians.  Generally, I am not okay with the practice of fining someone for walking.

    Parent

    My Friend... (none / 0) (#135)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 03:14:47 PM EST
    ...was crossing the street 'illegally' in downtown Houston at 8am going to work in a suit and they got him with a jaywalking ticket.  $25.

    Stoopidest thing I heard of, and if I had to guess, just and easy way to make quota.

    In my neighborhood, there are no designated crosswalks, there isn't enough traffic and kids play in the street all the time, sometimes with adults.  One family has a mobile basket ball hoop that is in the street from time to time, no one cares, including the two cops, one who lives couple doors down.

    Parent

    My Dad (none / 0) (#148)
    by CST on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 04:44:50 PM EST
    actually got a jaywalking ticket in Boston his very first day in the city - almost 50 years ago.

    It's a story he tells, like "when I was a kid" people used to do outrageous things, like ticket people for jaywalking.  Isn't that hilarious?  Like walking uphill both ways to school through 12 feet of snow in the summertime - except that one actually happened.  And apparently still happens in some places?

    Parent

    One wonders how the city would have (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 11:56:19 AM EST
    funded itself if it hadn't had such a large pool of mostly black, mostly economically disadvantaged people to prey on.  Because it isn't just the ticket for the busted brake light, or the expired tags or for jaywalking.  It's the additional fines that get tacked on when the original ticket can't be paid, or when - as has been reported - the courthouse doors are locked ten minutes before court is supposed to officially open, so that "failure to appear" fines can be levied on top of all the other costs.  

    The initial ticket was often just the tip of the iceberg, and these practices went on and on and on.

    Even if - and it's a stretch just to type that - a case could be made that what was going on in Ferguson wasn't racially discriminatory, I think a case could definitely be made that it was economically discriminatory.  It's a shame that the tax base of Ferguson can't support the operations of local government, but the methods employed in Ferguson to collect revenue would be unacceptable no matter what the racial breakdown was.

    National indeed (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:19:50 PM EST

    Driving with a cracked windshield, burned our head or tail lights, or failed turn signals are all like the loose cigarettes sold by Eric Garner in that they are largely "crimes" of the poor.  But they make good revenue for the local government.

    Favorite part (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 05:24:46 PM EST
    from WaPo

    One remarkable statistic included in the newly released federal report on the Ferguson Police Department reveals that when police officers make arrests for jaywalking, the suspect is almost always black. Although blacks account for two thirds of Ferguson's population, fully 95 percent of those charged with the violating the the municipal ordinance on "manner of walking along roadway" are black.

    Hope I'm not repeating someone

    LINK

    Maybe that's because... (none / 0) (#115)
    by unitron on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 12:53:26 PM EST
    ...almost all of the white people have cars.

    Parent
    A broad brush assumption (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by MO Blue on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 01:49:44 PM EST
    Maybe your assumptions are based more on stereotypes than on knowledge of the structure and demographics of Ferguson.

    Parent
    All fines should be community service (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Babel 17 on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 07:17:31 PM EST
    All fines should be community service/confiscating your time. This would affect the wealthy and the poor in much more of a similar manner. If community service isn't possible/economical then sit the people in a room and play some driver education videos.
    Perhaps, on top of that, court costs could be assessed based on ability to pay. The truly destitute are suffering enough, reminding them of their poverty is already a punishment.
    In the earliest days of our criminal justice system, even going back to ancient times, there wasn't such a huge disparity in wealth. And I wouldn't be surprised to hear that even in the old days the ability to pay was a factor in the justice system.
    Since email is all the rage (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 07:31:17 AM EST
    Here are seven Ferguson PD emails that DOJ has chosen to highlight.  There may be others we need to see to make certain the work and command environment was racist.  Where's my House of Congress subpoena!?

    the full report is available (5.00 / 3) (#91)
    by CST on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 10:19:08 AM EST
    Here.  Anyone who wants to justify using a police force to extort and rob their population for going about their daily lives can be my guest.  I encourage you to read about the absurd revenue schemes and racist emails and then come back here and tell me all the statistics that come with it add up to pure happenstance.

    DOJ Clears Wilson (3.00 / 2) (#34)
    by RickyJim on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:23:18 PM EST
    Link to DOJ report.
    There is no evidence upon which prosecutors can rely to disprove Wilson's stated subjective belief that he feared for his safety.

    Poor prosecutors.  They don't read some of our supersleuths here at Talk Left who think they have proved Wilson's guilt. :-)

    Some thought he was guilty (none / 0) (#49)
    by McBain on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 02:17:32 PM EST
    Some just wanted a trial.  Some said they just wanted a trial but really thought he was guilty.  I thought he was probably justified in the shooting but still wanted a trial for my own selfish voyeuristic pleasure.

    Parent
    What if... (2.00 / 3) (#1)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:23:55 AM EST
    Ferguson's population is one-third white.

        85 percent of traffic stops, 90 percent of tickets and 93 percent of arrests.

    ...say, about 2 or 3 times as many black residents than white residents have expired plates, burned out headlights or brake lights, etc., which leads to about 2 or 3 times as many black residents getting traffic stops and tickets.

    What if  2 or 3 times as many black residents than white residents have outstanding tickets, warrants, etc., which leads to 2-3 times as many tickets, etc.

    iow, what if the metrics that are being offered in this case really do not lead to the conclusions proffered.

    Of course, just because the analysis is flawed, illogical and, frankly, silly, does not mean the conclusions are invalid.

    I had this question last night (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 07:14:13 AM EST
    When I read about this report.  If the AA population is 67%, would it be okay if 67% of the stops, tickets, arrests were of AA?  How about 70%? What is the number? And what if, say, 47% were AA - would that indicate that non-residents were being targeted too much?

    And how many of the "total" percentages are for repeat stops (justified and unjustified)?

    I agree:

    Of course, just because the analysis is flawed, illogical and, frankly, silly, does not mean the conclusions are invalid.


    Parent
    What would be ok... (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 08:08:19 AM EST
    is less harassment over petty nonsense...period.

    I, for one, am tired of paying takes for the privilege of seeing my neighbors harassed and shaken down almost daily in my ghetto burb.  Or being subject to it myself.  

    I mean c'mon man...expired tags?  A broken taillight?  Is such nonsense worth a confrontation that leads to such much animosity, mistrust, and far too often violence and even death?  

    Parent

    I guess the question to you (none / 0) (#9)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 08:20:01 AM EST
    Would be - who starts such confrontations?
    If you have expired tags on your car, and you get pulled over and get ticketed, why in earth would you argue?  You're clearly in the wrong!

    Now if a cop pulled you over for no reason, and then pulled your good tags off as an excuse to write you a ticket - that's a different story.  But you can't tell me that happens all (or most) of the time.

    But geez - just look at how many people have the attitude of "How dare you penalize me for being wrong!" (It's kind of like when syndrome cuts ME off,  and then flips me the bird when I lay on the horn).


    Parent

    Ever think... (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 08:29:03 AM EST
    what a dystopian nightmare it would be if every rinky-dink law was fully enforced all the time?

    It's called discretion...reckless driving, reckless speeding, no choice ya gotta pull 'em over before they hurt someone.

    Expired tags?  Let it go man, let it go...it's not worth the confrontation, regardless of who "started" it.  Let it go, in the name of peace and police/community relations.

    Though we both well know the traffic stops for expired tags is not about expired tags...it's a fishing expedition for a bigger bust.  And that's not right, imo.

    Parent

    At what point would everyone (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 10:56:13 AM EST
    just quit obeying the law if the cops just stopped enforcing them???

    Parent
    We can see what happened (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 11:07:35 AM EST
    when the NYPD had their slowdown.

    Retired NYPD lieutenant Steve Osborne made the point in an op-ed for the New York Times that was sharply critical of both de Blasio and the protestors.

    "I have to suspend my disbelief," the officer in East Harlem said, "to see how sentencing a guy with an open container is going to really bring crime down."
    "More police productivity has meant far less crime, but at a certain point New York began to feel like, yes, a police state, and the police don't like it any more than you," Osborne wrote.

    "The time has probably come for the Police Department to ease up on the low-level `broken-windows' stuff while re-evaluating the impact it may or may not have on real, serious crime," he added. "No one will welcome this more than the average cop on the beat, who has been pressed to find crime where so much less of it exists."

    And the question is about equitable enforcement by LEO not based on racial profiling, not getting rid of the cops altogether.  Please try to keep up.

    Parent

    Would you kindly (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:36:55 PM EST
    read the threads before you start typing??

    My comment was in response to kdog's comment.

    And it didn't say a partial slow down. It says " if the cops just stopped enforcing them??? "

    So your response is inappropriate, inaccurate and just plain wrong.

    Parent

    I'm just saying (none / 0) (#50)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 02:30:57 PM EST
    That if the enforcement went down in Ferguson, it's clear that there wouldn't be chaos.

    And if you make a questionable remark to somebody else, that doesn't immunize it against others pointing that out.

    Parent

    Seems to me... (none / 0) (#111)
    by unitron on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 12:27:15 PM EST
    ...that it was you who injected 'no enforcement at all' into a discussion about discretion in enforcement.

    Parent
    In most places (other than Ferguson)... (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 11:14:24 AM EST
    jaywalking laws are not enforced...has a jaywalking epidemic resulted that I am not aware of?  And if yes, is that even a problem in need of a solution?

    You know damn well it's not about the law, or public safety...it's about jacking the poor for revenue, getting their snout in a car or pockets in hopes of a bigger bust, and simple harassment for harassment's sake aka power trippin'.  

    Parent

    Well, there's the world I live in (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Reconstructionist on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 11:15:49 AM EST
     where just recently a cop pulled up beside me and motioned me to lower my window. He then asked me very politely, "sir, did you know your right brake light is out?" I didn't and thanked him and went on my way. Might that same cop have treated a black guy the same way? Maybe, but his failure to "enforce" the law would be unlikely to result in lawless anarchy in either case.

     

    Parent

    So by your standards, the Ferguson police (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 11:57:47 AM EST
    are allowing more white people to ignore the laws, which is really the case.

    Blacks were disproportionately more likely to be cited for minor infractions: 95% of tickets for "manner of walking in roadway," essentially jaywalking, were against African Americans. Also, 94% of all "failure to comply" charges were filed against black people.

    Also, African Americans were 68% less likely to have their cases dismissed by a Ferguson municipal judge than whites.

    Parent

    Grr typing on a phone. (3.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 08:21:02 AM EST
    "Someone" not "syndrome"

    Parent
    So, do you think the city whose (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 08:21:56 AM EST
    officials are doing this:

    In a November 2008 email, a city official said Barack Obama would not be president long because "what black man holds a steady job for four years?" Another email included a cartoon depicting African-Americans as monkeys. A third described black women having abortions as a way to curb crime.

    is maintaining a culture and atmosphere consistent with objective and unbiased policing?

    What does this tell you:

    A black motorist who is pulled over is twice as likely to be searched as a white motorist, even though searches of white drivers are more likely to turn up drugs or other contraband, the report found.

    Minor, largely discretionary offenses such as disturbing the peace and jaywalking were brought almost exclusively against blacks. When whites were charged with these crimes, they were 68 percent more likely to have their cases dismissed, the Justice Department found.

    And apparently, what's really skewing the numbers is the fact that Ferguson is a shopping mecca for black people:

    Brian P. Fletcher, a former Ferguson mayor who is running for City Council in next month's election, said he believed the report was unfair because the Justice Department relied on incomplete data. For example, he said, the racial disparity could be explained not by bias but by the large number of black people from surrounding towns who visit Ferguson to shop.

    One last question: did you even read the NYT article? 'cause it's not looking too much like you did.

    Parent

    Unacceptable. (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Jack203 on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 09:31:53 PM EST
    "A black motorist who is pulled over is twice as likely to be searched as a white motorist, even though searches of white drivers are more likely to turn up drugs or other contraband, the report found."

    Parent
    Yes, I did (2.00 / 3) (#14)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 08:41:19 AM EST
    And of course, I agree with SUO that while there logic and data analysis seems flawed, doesn't mean they're isn't a problem.  I also realize however, that there are politics in play.  Would you have expected this report to say anything different?

    You are usually smart enough to peel back the layers and at least question what really is going on and what the data actually say, but in this case, since the report says what you expect, you won't look too closely. Go on - try it.  It isn't going to change the very real problems, but it might give you better context.

    Parent

    In Other Words... (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:11:33 PM EST
    ...what if black people are just predispositioned to commit more crimes that white folks.

    Come on man.

    It's not Mars, what is true in Ferguson is going to be relatively true throughout the country.  Add in all the other racial stuff that has come out it's hardly a jump to say black people were targets in Ferguson.

    Parent

    Reading comprehension is not your friend. (1.00 / 1) (#59)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 04:08:39 PM EST


    Parent
    Your the One Suggesting... (none / 0) (#86)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 09:28:34 AM EST
    ...a disproportionate amount of black folks committing minor crimes could account for them being given more tickets, not me.

    Parent
    That comment and your previous comment (none / 0) (#93)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 11:11:14 AM EST
    are not the same, and neither of them are what I said.

    Parent
    OK, if you are using "minor crimes" (none / 0) (#96)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 11:31:41 AM EST
    to mean vehicle violations, etc., that lead to traffic stops, then yeah, what if there is a disproportionate amount of black folks with those type of issues in Fergy.

    Parent
    Then it Stand to Reason... (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 12:22:51 PM EST
    ...that would be true throughout the country.

    You are basically stating there could be an anomaly in Ferguson.  IMO that is true, but I think it falls in the other direction, as I think the DOJ report confirms.

    Crime is crime, minor or severe, I just put in the qualifier because you seem to be suggesting that minor crime is not the same as other crime.

    I agree mostly, but in Ferguson minor crime, aka traffic violations are jailable offenses, which would make them in most communities regular ole crimes.

    It's probably best to let this go, as more and more of the report comes out it is so obviously the police, that I don't want to argue about a comment you made a day or two ago when many parts of the report weren't available.

    It's getting so bad, IMO some people should be standing trial for how the city, using the police, basically pillaged an entire race.


    Parent

    Oh I think it very well may be true thoughout (none / 0) (#121)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 01:45:24 PM EST
    the country, where there is similar culture/economics/etc.

    Parent
    Let's Hope... (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 03:18:15 PM EST
    ...Ferguson is the anomaly as far as the city using the police to bilk it's black citizens.

    Parent
    Police using tickets, etc., to raise revenues (none / 0) (#140)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 04:01:35 PM EST
    for the city/municipality, is a complaint I've heard my whole life in many, many, cities, pretty much regardless of the racial makeup of its inhabitants.

    Parent
    You keep saying that (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by vicndabx on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 04:09:00 PM EST
    and it may be true.  There are degrees you know.

    Parent
    Well Yeah, Everyone Says That... (none / 0) (#149)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 04:45:55 PM EST
    ...especially after they get a ticket, but:

    A) is it true, certainly not in most areas where taxes account for most of the budget, but it's easy to look up.
    B) they probably aren't making a concerted effort to get one race to hoist the lion's share of expected violations budget.

    We all know there are quotas and that those numbers are factored into things like salary and promotion.


    Parent

    s/b (none / 0) (#2)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:24:52 AM EST
    What if  2 or 3 times as many black residents than white residents have outstanding tickets, warrants, etc., which leads to 2-3 times as many arrests, etc.


    Parent
    It seems clear (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 06:59:59 AM EST
    that there is racial profiling going on here, SUO.  

    Why you can't seem to wrap your mind around that is neither here nor there, as I don't have any experience in abnormal psychology, but there it is.

    Parent

    I thought he raised some legitimate questions (none / 0) (#25)
    by McBain on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 11:41:54 AM EST
    about the statistics.  He doesn't seem to be as gullible as most people who post here.

    Parent
    "There are none so blind (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 11:45:52 AM EST
    as those who will not see what is in front of them."

    Parent
    I don't need a DOJ report... (5.00 / 5) (#46)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 01:41:39 PM EST
    to know how the police roll.

    Parent
    I'd first suggest you read the report, (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by Anne on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 01:04:18 PM EST
    but if you're not going to do that, here is something you may be interested to know:

    Over the course of the investigation, we interviewed City officials, including City Manager John Shaw, Mayor James Knowles, Chief of Police Thomas Jackson, Municipal Judge Ronald Brockmeyer, the Municipal Court Clerk, Ferguson's Finance Director, half of FPD's sworn officers, and others. We spent, collectively, approximately 100 person-days onsite in Ferguson. We participated in ride-alongs with on-duty officers, reviewed over 35,000 pages of police records as well as thousands of emails and other electronic materials provided by the police department. Enlisting the assistance of statisticalexperts, we analyzed FPD's data on stops, searches, citations, and arrests, as well as data collected by the municipal court. We observed four separate sessions of Ferguson Municipal Court, interviewing dozens of people charged with local offenses, and we reviewed third-party studies regarding municipal court practices in Ferguson and St. Louis County more broadly. As in all of our investigations, we sought to engage the local community, conducting hundreds of in-person and telephone interviews of individuals who reside in Ferguson or who have had interactions with the police department. We contacted ten neighborhood associations and met with each group that responded to us, as well as several other community groups and advocacy organizations. Throughout the investigation, we relied on two police chiefs who accompanied us to Ferguson
    and who themselves interviewed City and police officials, spoke with community members, and reviewed FPD policies and incident reports.

    Re: Police Practices

    The City's emphasis on revenue generation has a profound effect on FPD's approach to law enforcement. Patrol assignments and schedules are geared toward aggressive enforcement of Ferguson's municipal code, with insufficient thought given to whether enforcement strategies promote public safety or unnecessarily undermine community trust and cooperation. Officer evaluations and promotions depend to an inordinate degree on "productivity," meaning the number of citations issued. Partly as a consequence of City and FPD priorities, many officers appear to see some residents, especially those who live in Ferguson's predominantly African-American neighborhoods, less as constituents to be protected than as potential offenders and sources of revenue. This culture within FPD influences officer activities in all areas of policing, beyond just ticketing. Officers expect and demand compliance even when they lack legal authority. They are inclined to interpret the exercise of free-speech rights as unlawful disobedience, innocent movements as physical threats, indications of mental or physical illness as belligerence.  Police supervisors and leadership do too little to ensure that officers act in accordance with law and policy, and rarely respond meaningfully to civilian complaints of officer misconduct. The result is a pattern of stops without reasonable suspicion and arrests without probable cause in violation of the Fourth Amendment;infringement on free expression, as well as retaliation for protected expression, in violation of the First Amendment; and excessive force in violation of the Fourth Amendment.

    And this is just in the opening pages - the "meat" is far  more detailed.  And no less disturbing.

    One more thing to ponder, should you decide to actually read the report: this is the culture and atmosphere in which Darren Wilson was operating.  These are the accepted methods and behaviors practiced by the FPD in which Darren Wilson worked.  While the DOJ may have had no choice but to conclude they could not contradict Wilson's assertion that he was in fear for his life, this report on the FPD seems to provide a reason why a relatively benign encounter escalated into one in which a young man was shot dead.

    Parent

    I read it mom. (1.00 / 1) (#118)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 01:29:07 PM EST
    See comment #117.

    Parent
    In the absence of stats (none / 0) (#21)
    by Reconstructionist on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 11:03:40 AM EST
     as to the actual relative frequency of such infractions occurring among different groups, one can certainly state the raw stats do not prove the disparity is necessarily as great as the raw numbers indicate.

      When, however, the raw numbers are that disparate. inferences are logical.  Since it is impossible to quantify a negative (how many peole who are n fact committing such infractions are not stopped) it would be useful to look at other jurisdictions with similar numbers of patrol man hours per population unit and compare the total number of stops (which is significant in and of itself) and how the racial breakdown in those jurisdictions cmpare.

      If one found for example, a very white jurisdiction with the same patrol man hour per population unit rate stopped significantly fewer people for such violations that would mean something. If another jurisdiction with a similar racial makeup but a more diverse police force had a lower proportion of blacks being stopped, that would mean something.

      That's just two of the types of comparisons that could be made to support the influence of race even when we lack data on the numbers of people in violation who are not stopped.


    Parent

    How would you know? (2.00 / 1) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:55:24 PM EST
    If....a very white jurisdiction with the same patrol man hour per population unit rate stopped significantly fewer people for such violations that would mean something.

    Since you have no way of knowing how many "such violations" actually occurred how would you know??

    To me it is obvious that in poor neighborhoods you are going to have more expired tags, more broken taillights, etc. because of the simple fact that the populace has less money to take care of such items.

    Now if you want to argue that Ferguson has a population that is similar in income across all races that's a different story. Of course I don't know if that's true.

    And the other issue is attitude towards the police. We should remember that the Ferguson thing started when Brown refused to just get out of the street. That was a simple request.

    Parent

    You wouldn't "know" (none / 0) (#52)
    by Reconstructionist on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 03:05:03 PM EST
     but comparisons to data from other jurisdictions provides relevant information sufficient to draw reasonable inferences.

      You identify additional jurisdictions to which comparison would be useful: if a jurisdiction with many similar characteristics as to population, breakdown of socio-economic status, size and racial makeup of police force etc. but a large white majority had similar stop/cite/arrest/search numbers that would support the inference that Ferguson PD is not an outlier and maybe race is less of a factor. If, though despite everything being similar except for race most objective people would infer something else.

    Parent

    Glad we agree (2.00 / 1) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 04:32:20 PM EST
    You wouldn't know.

    And, as I noted, the other jurisdiction can be expected to have less expired plates, broken taillights, broken windshields, etc. because it has more money to take of those problems.

    And it is all about money. Poor whites get more of a pass than poor blacks but they have the same problems when it comes to feeding their families, educating their children, etc.

    kdog, Brown was walking down the middle of the street. That isn't jaywalking. He was told to get on the sidewalk. Not an unreasonable request

    Parent

    Wilson had no alternative, (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by NYShooter on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 06:05:15 PM EST
    killing Brown was his only option.

    Parent
    I prefer "aiming for center mass and shooting (2.00 / 1) (#70)
    by McBain on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 08:08:55 PM EST
    to stop Brown" like he was trained to do.  "Killing" sounds like he wanted Brown dead.

    Parent
    I'd prefer (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by NYShooter on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 11:53:36 PM EST
    Brown were here to tell us himself, like he could if he were white.

    Parent
    Like he could IF (none / 0) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 10:06:36 AM EST
    he had not robbed a store and attacked Wilson.

    Parent
    Perhaps not... (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 06:05:53 PM EST
    But we both know it wasn't a request, it was a command, like telling your dog to heel. Who would have guessed people don't appreciate getting treated like dogs. Worse actually...dogs are treated better than people in some circles of our society in many respects.

    And a totally unnecessary provocation in the context of a community under siege by those sworn to serve and protect them.

    Parent

    Actually, we don't at all know that. (2.00 / 1) (#73)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 09:32:06 PM EST
    While he may indeed have ordered them off the street, he also may not have.

    We have no proof either way.

    Parent

    Will you take the word of Dorian Johnson? (none / 0) (#90)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 10:17:49 AM EST
    When he got right directly on the
    13 side of us, the police officer Darren Wilson, when
    14 he got on the side of us he rolled his window down

    15 and he said, get on the sidewalk, but it wasn't in a

    16 polite manner, it was very rudely.

    17 You can say whatever he said.

    18 A He said get the on the sidewalk.

    19 That's the get the

    20 A Get the fuck on the sidewalk.

    GJ Testimony

    And yes, kdog, Wilson may have been less than respectful, but if you get in a life and death struggle every time someone dis's you then you are going to be in trouble all the time.

    Parent

    Perhaps more germane (none / 0) (#95)
    by whitecap333 on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 11:29:55 AM EST
    is Johnson's admission that the cigar theft was immediately reported to the police and that, upon exiting the store, he feared arrest at any moment.  And let's not forget the wad of "leafy green" Brown was carrying, described to the grand jury as about the size of a baseball.  It is frivolous to pretend, at this point, that Wilson did not intend to question and "frisk" Brown when he backed up, and that Brown did not have reason to be combative.

    Parent
    No, I won't take DJ's word on this, any more than (none / 0) (#99)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 11:38:28 AM EST
    I would take Wilson's word on this.

    Parent
    ...so you appear to be stating that (none / 0) (#103)
    by Jack E Lope on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 12:05:44 PM EST
    Get the fuck on the sidewalk.

    ...is...
    Not an unreasonable request

    Do we call it an unreasonable command, then?  

    Or is the verbal abuse reasonable?

    Parent

    If he had felt that he was being abused (none / 0) (#128)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 02:27:04 PM EST
    he could have reported it.

    But do you really think any of the 3 involved were shocked by the use of the F word??

    Parent

    comments like this (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by sj on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 03:57:46 PM EST
    (shown below in it's entirety) showcase so very well, the lack of heart and humanity in the typical -- one might say stereotypical -- conservative. It's more important to make the brown person -- and those libruls --wrong than it is to apply critical thinking and compassion to a situation.
    If he had felt that he was being abused (none / 0) (#128)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 01:27:04 PM MDT

    he could have reported it.

    But do you really think any of the 3 involved were shocked by the use of the F word??

    My guess is you see nothing wrong with this and so you're not even ashamed of yourself.

    Parent
    Good grief (none / 0) (#153)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 06:43:25 PM EST
    First you wanna complain that Wilson was nasty.

    I agreed.

    Then when I say that none of these three shocked by the use of the F word I'm a "conservative???"

    Outside of the fact that I support gay rights, including marriage, reform of the drug laws, women's right to choose, single payer insurance my pointing out what is absolutely correct makes me a "conservative...?

    Really?? Do you expect to be taken seriously when you play such silly games??

    BTW - Have you ever had any actual exposure in real life situations to black and white teenagers and young cops?? Obviously not.

    Parent

    You accusing others (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by sj on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 02:06:13 PM EST
    of playing "silly games" is downright ludicrous and truly tacky. But you are tolerated from some obscure reason. So just be your usual hateful and ugly self.

    Parent
    "F Word" Myth (none / 0) (#155)
    by whitecap333 on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 06:52:21 PM EST
    I now see that the DOJ gives short shrift to the notion that Brown was responding to being addressed in terms offensive to his sense of dignity:  "Wilson was aware of the theft and had a description of the suspects as he encountered Brown and Witness 101."

    Too bad we "moved on" from this subject before the facts were known.  

    Parent

    Many traffic stops (1.67 / 3) (#15)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 09:37:05 AM EST

    In many traffic stops such as speeding, expired plates, running a stop sign, broken tail or brake light, etc. the officer will mostly have no idea of the race of the driver, just a clear understanding of a vehicular infraction. That being the case, then the race of the driver will be proportional to the population committing the offenses, not to the general population.

    The politicized DOJ appears to be showing evidence that refutes their claim.  Whoda thunk it?

    Another thing to keep in mind is that the average age of the black population is quite a bit lower than the white population. Why does this matter?  Crime commission is strongly age correlated.


    not quite though (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by CST on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 09:51:50 AM EST
    85% of stops, 93% of arrests - means they are getting arrested at a higher rate.  95% of jaywalking offenses where you can see the suspects.  Also - Jaywalking suspects??

    I think one thing that stuck out to me more about previous reports was the sheer number of warrants out for petty crimes compared to the total population.  The Ferguson Police Department clearly had a serious issue with the community based on that alone.

    And just curious - is that average age statistic a Ferguson statistic or a national one?  I would imagine it varies greatly by location.

    Parent

    More than 6 year difference. (none / 0) (#29)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:02:00 PM EST
    31 for blacks versus 37.2 for general population, which includes blacks.

    I am watching MSNBC talking to a young black lady who had been caught driving with a cracked windshield. She didn't pay the ticket and was eventually arrested. No doubt the cracked glass and repeated failure to pay was just an excuse and the real reason for the arrest was her color.

    Parent

    Missouri Laws (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:09:38 PM EST
    Debtors' prisons may be illegal under the Missouri state constitution, but the practice of locking people up for unpaid debts is alive and well. link

    Whether failing to pay the courts or failing to pay a creditor people are being jailed for not paying debts.

    Parent

    That reeks (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:23:44 PM EST
    of stupidity. It costs the tax payers a lot more money to put someone in jail for a stupid cracked window. If you're okay with that kind of totalitarian stupidity then just say so.

    Parent
    I'm ok or not ok (2.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 04:02:56 PM EST
    How Missouri creates its laws is up to them. If you don't believe in democratically created laws, just say so.

    Parent
    So you're not going to (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 04:40:50 PM EST
    answer the question. Okay. As long as the laws are made by the legislature even if they are stupid it is okay with you. You conservatives just love totalitarianism.

    Parent
    I am in favor (none / 0) (#85)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 09:19:14 AM EST
    of all democratically created laws being enforced. How about you?

    Parent
    All of them? (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by CST on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 09:46:04 AM EST
    Really?

    Are you in favor of equal application of punishment for breaking the law regardless of race?  Because it has been laid out clearly for you in this thread that that isn't what happens in Ferguson.

    Parent

    An interesting assertion. (none / 0) (#98)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 11:38:06 AM EST
    That has yet to be demonstrated.

    Parent
    So I (none / 0) (#101)
    by FlJoe on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 11:48:44 AM EST
    guess you are upset at the slap on the wrist that the man called Petraeus got? Are you calling for investigations and charges against the people who tortured prisoners? How about the bankers who wrecked the economy, got caught red handed rigging the system and laundering drug and other criminal monies. You insist on rigid enforcement of petty crimes among the poor, I would assume you would insist on the same treatment for the rich and powerful. Law and order for all right?

    Parent
    When did Petraeus... (none / 0) (#112)
    by unitron on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 12:39:24 PM EST
    ...get arrested in Ferguson?

    Parent
    More often than not a young white (4.25 / 4) (#39)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:37:52 PM EST
    Woman (or not so young) would not be given a ticket in the first place. They would have been advised to take care of the problem or worse case scenario they would have been given a warning ticket which does not involve a court appearance or a fine.

    I live in the area and that is the normal procedure for being stopped while white.

    Parent

    That's your opinion (2.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 03:57:32 PM EST
    So, it seems that the DOJ has presented zero evidence that whites and blacks were treated any differently for the same offense.

    Parent
    I've posted this (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by CST on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 03:59:18 PM EST
    numerous places throughout the thread

    "Minor, largely discretionary offenses such as disturbing the peace and jaywalking were brought almost exclusively against blacks. When whites were charged with these crimes, they were 68 percent more likely to have their cases dismissed, the Justice Department found."

    Emphasis mine.

    Parent

    and what percentage of (none / 0) (#80)
    by ding7777 on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 08:37:19 AM EST
    blacks ignored the summons? What percentage of blacks who did appear had their case dismissed?

    Parent
    What percentage of them got arrested (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by CST on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 10:10:35 AM EST
    When they did appear and couldn't afford to pay the outrageous fine they got for some trumped up charges?

    Maybe that's the question you should be asking.

    Also - you can believe there was nothing wrong, but the justice department just did a massive study and they found a pretty clear problem, even the Ferguson PD can see the writing on the wall.

    Mind you this report was written by the same justice department that just cleared Darren Wilson.

    Parent

    He has a point, CST. (none / 0) (#97)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 11:36:34 AM EST


    Parent
    not when (5.00 / 4) (#104)
    by CST on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 12:06:17 PM EST
    the people who get cited and fined for these pretty clearly trumped up charges are overwhelmingly black to begin with and there is a documented pattern of fines being dropped for "friends" of the PD absent any court appearance being required.  How many of those white people showed up in court and how many of them wrote letters to their "friends" and had the charges dropped?  That stuff is documented in the report.

    Ferguson is not that big of a place, this isn't NYC where you have millions of residents and thousands of cops.  One or two of these anecdotes is a mistake.  A report full of them is a system.

    Parent

    Yeah, I just read the report. There is a lot to (none / 0) (#117)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 01:25:36 PM EST
    criticize about the report itself, imo.

    But first, the summary, except for it's focus on race, sounds similar to basically every complaint I've had and/or heard about every PD in America.

    1. One of the goals of the PD is to raise revenue.

    2. Officers demand and expect comp0liance even when they don't have legal authority.

    3. the court issues municipal arrest warrants not on the basis of public safety needs, but rather as a routine response to missed court appearances and required fine payments.

    4. The court imposes these severe penalties for missed appearances and payments even as several of the court's practices create unnecessary barriers to resolving a municipal violation.

    5. Community distrust of the PD.

    6. Having a "friend" w/in the system can get your ticket dismissed.

    Etc.

    Regardless, in response to your comment, were any tickets, or whatever, ever "disappeared" for black people?

    The report does not say.

    Parent

    "There is much to criticize about (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by Anne on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 02:38:34 PM EST
    the report."

    Like what, exactly?  Can you be more specific?

    What is your opinion, for example, about the Municipal Court coming under the jurisdiction of the police department?

    Is your local police department run like a business whose mission is to make money for the city?  Do you have any comment on someone who called the PD for help instead being cited for an occupancy violation, instead of receiving assistance?

    Will be interested in your thoughts.


    Parent

    Sure. May main issue with the investigtion (none / 0) (#136)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 03:16:01 PM EST
    is that its completely one-sided. Its goal is only to find the failings with the FPD/court system. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy; you find what you look for.

    For example, if your employer did an investigation of you to build a report of your failings, you'd be fired tomorrow.

    OK, maybe an exaggeration, but you see what I mean. A report of this type, that listed and discussed at length only your failings - or any or ours - would be pretty devastating, and without any balance to it, it would definitely profoundly skew everyone's opinion of you.

    That the report will result in improvement of the FPD is of course a good thing.

    Parent

    Well, I guess what I would have to (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Anne on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 04:14:01 PM EST
    say is that the investigation was undertaken to determine if the FPD and the City were in compliance with the pattern or practice provisions of several sections of the US Code; that investigation revealed that they were not.

    What positives could the FPD have that would mitigate, balance, overcome, the numerous violations of people's constitutional rights?  I mean, just because there might be some positives, that doesn't mean the negatives don't need to be addressed, does it?

    The report did note that:

    [...]we found many Ferguson police officers and other City employees to be dedicated public servants striving each day to perform their
    duties lawfully and with respect for all members of the Ferguson community. The importance of their often selfless work cannot be overstated.

    You said that you read the report; maybe we read two different ones.

    Parent

    Exactly (none / 0) (#144)
    by vicndabx on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 04:20:51 PM EST
    too late for fair after the fact.  Ferguson officials should've been thinking about even-handedness before we got here.

    Parent
    Yup, if you are inclined to accept the entire (none / 0) (#146)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 04:26:38 PM EST
    report without question, we do read differently.

    For example, many stories as told by residents are included in the report. Were the LEO's, court employees, etc., involved in these stories contacted for their side of events?

    Parent

    I guess you missed the part of the (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Anne on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 04:37:15 PM EST
    report where it stated that they obtained many of the examples cited directly from police reports.  Well, those that had actually been written, that is.  Seems that was another problem identified: failure to write up reports, and to have reports signed off on by supervisors.

    I hate to say this, but your assertion that you've read the report is looking pretty weak.

    It's 105 pages and they are dense with information; I'm not a slow reader, but I'm still making my way through it, trying to digest it all.

    Parent

    Reading is not the only thing you are slow at. (1.25 / 4) (#150)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 04:50:24 PM EST
    An African - American man recounted to us an experience he had whle sitting at a bus stop near Canfield Drive. According to the man, an FPD patrol car abruptly pulled up in front of him. The officer inside, a patrol lieutenant, rolled down his window and addressed the man:

    Lieutenant: Get over here.

    Bus Patron: Me?

    Lieutenant: Get the f*** over here. Yeah, you.

    Bus Patron: Why? What did I do?

    Lieutenant: Give me your ID.

    Bus Patron: Why?

    Lieutenant: Stop being a smart ass and give me you



    Parent
    Maybe your problem is that you (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Anne on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 06:23:17 PM EST
    read too fast and miss things like my saying they obtained "many" of their examples from police reports; I didn't say that's where they all came from.  See how that works?

    I thought it might be possible to have an honest discussion with you about the report, but apparently not.

    The "2" is for your "slow" comment.

    Parent

    That is hysterical, although I think (1.00 / 2) (#157)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 10:10:36 PM EST
    unintentional on your part.

    A 2 for the slow comment? Honest discussion?

    You insert at least one snide and infantile pissant little dig in just about every comment you make to someone with whom you disagree; that you can't handle getting it back to you and then play the victim about honest discussion is very, very amusing.

    Parent

    Incredible (none / 0) (#142)
    by sj on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 04:09:46 PM EST
    Are you A) being deliberately inflammatory for your own personal amusement, or B) are you that lacking in analytical abilities?


    Parent
    statistically (none / 0) (#120)
    by CST on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 01:44:33 PM EST
    whether it was in court or by letter or however - they were less likely to be disappeared for black people than white people.  I believe the number was 68% more likely to have charges disappeared as a white person - the reason was not provided but the percentage was.

    Parent
    No. "Disappeared" means gaming the (none / 0) (#125)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 02:01:17 PM EST
    system with an inside "friend." That is what your comment was about that I responded to.

    The 68% was tickets dismissed by the court, a different issue.

    There are some, anyway, black LEOs in Ferguson, and I would assume Ferguson Municipal Court has black employees as well, therefore I would expect that black people also had their tickets "disappeared."

    Would you agree?

    The question about the 68% is whether the number is "apples to apples." Did the people with more dismissed tickets actually show up in court more for their ticket than the people who did not get their ticket dismissed. Did some people get legal representation more than other people. Did some people show "respect" for the court (by the way they dressed, etc.) more than other people. Where there other factors involved.

    Again, as I said above, the Ferguson report, except for it's focus on race, could be cut-n-pasted for just about any PD in the country.

    We have the same exact complaints about my town's PD. We can't usually blame it on race though.

    Parent

    there's a gap (none / 0) (#123)
    by CST on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 01:52:26 PM EST
    between people suspecting and having documented proof.

    We suspect that this is a problem nationally.  We have proof that it's going on here.

    Presumably a lot of police departments need a bright light shined on their practices.

    I don't think the fact that we all have a sense this is a problem everywhere means we should ignore it/dismiss it when there is documented evidence of it happening in Ferguson.  It just means we should be working to solve this everywhere.

    If this is business as usual for PDs in America - business as usual has a problem.

    Parent

    I think, in varying degrees, (none / 0) (#127)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 02:07:06 PM EST
    the items I listed, and probably others I did not, is business as usual for PD's in much/most of America.

    Parent
    Except that it's worse (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by CST on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 02:29:09 PM EST
    FWIW, arresting people or even ticketing people for jaywalking violations is certainly not business as usual around this part of the country.  

    And given that the report also found that the fines in Ferguson are higher than they are elsewhere I don't think that's entirely true, or at least the impact would certainly be greater in Ferguson than it is elsewhere because of that discrepancy.

    Parent

    So...we're in agreement? (none / 0) (#130)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 02:34:27 PM EST
    In varying degrees this is business as usual for many/most PD's in America?

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 3) (#134)
    by CST on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 02:48:59 PM EST
    The fines are higher, and 76% of the population in 2013 had an outstanding warrant for a non-violent offense in a city with an average crime rate.

    Ferguson is not even close to normal.

    This might be happening in other places, but when it's happening 3x as much in one place as every other place nearby, you might want to start paying closer attention.

    Parent

    Boston's fines go up to $120, that is higher (2.00 / 1) (#138)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 03:56:16 PM EST
    than Ferguson's max of $102. NYC is $180. LA goes up to $555.

    It is pretty clear that the items from the FPD report is, to varying degrees, business as usual in most/many PDs in America.

    iow, many/most of them exhibit the same unexceptable behaviors, in varying degrees, when none of those behaviors should exist.

    I do not argue that FPD's metrics are not worse than some others, however these same unexceptable behaviors exist in most/all PS's regardless of the race of their constituents.

    As an aside, one of the complaints I had with the report are that it sometimes does not make sense, some of the report is really worded in a questionable manner.

    For example, to your point regarding high fines in Ferguson, this is what the report said:

    The chart noted, for example, that while other municipalities' parking fines generally range from $5 to $100, Ferguson's is $102.

    What does that sentence actually mean?

    "Generally range from $5 to $100?"? Does that mean some of them have fines that are greater than $100? Significantly greater than $100?

    "Ferguson's is $102." Ferguson's what is $102?

    It's one sentence, are we comparing other municipalities' range of fines to the one highest fine in Ferguson? Are all parking fines in Ferguson $102?

    Eh, whatever, if, as the report states, the Ferguson Financial Director says their fines are "at or near the top" compared to the surrounding municipalities, that is a pretty clear statement.

    Parent

    Also (5.00 / 4) (#109)
    by CST on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 12:17:36 PM EST
    the courts are a huge part of the problem:

    "The Justice Department report describes the courts as a bureaucratic morass in which people often receive the wrong court dates, court procedures are made up on the fly, and it can be unclear how much people owe or when they owe it. The punishment for missing a payment or an appearance, even for routine traffic violations, is often jail."

    "Poor, mostly African-American residents have described being trapped in the court system for years as they are repeatedly jailed, even when trying to make payments. Meanwhile, the Justice Department found, police officers and city officials regularly fix tickets for each other and their friends."

    Parent

    Wrong once again (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 04:34:53 PM EST
    You are factually incorrect.

    Parent
    They have (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by FlJoe on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 08:53:58 AM EST
    presented plenty of evidence. You just refuse to accept any of it.

    Parent
    Stops vs. cites (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Jack E Lope on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 11:54:36 AM EST
    In many traffic stops such as speeding, expired plates, running a stop sign, broken tail or brake light, etc. the officer will mostly have no idea of the race of the driver...

    Many of these stops must be for driving windowless vehicles.

    Once they discover that the driver of the windowless vehicle is white, are they less likely to paper them?

    Parent

    The time has come (1.00 / 3) (#36)
    by whitecap333 on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:25:00 PM EST
    to swallow the bitter pill: Darren Wilson Cleared of Rights Violations in Ferguson Shooting, Matt Apuzzo, NYT, 3-4-15.  In a nutshell, the DOJ found the accusers of this fine officer unworthy of belief.

    your username (5.00 / 6) (#37)
    by CST on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:32:37 PM EST
    is all the proof anyone needs that a certain subset of the "backlash" is profoundly racist.

    It makes it harder to believe the posts from those who are presumably commenting in good faith on the same subject.

    This may currently be a bitter pill for some of us - but you must hate living in this century.

    Parent

    I feel like the cockroaches just (4.50 / 6) (#40)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:48:45 PM EST
    skittered out from the dark places they inhabit.

    As well, I just feel profoundly sad and sick seeing proof of how stupefyingly ignorant people can be.

    I want to go take a shower now.

    Parent

    Who Are Ignorant Cockroaches? (3.00 / 2) (#41)
    by RickyJim on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:55:14 PM EST
    The DOJ and the Grand Jury and DA McCulloch?  When will you learn the art of serious discourse?

    Parent
    Most unintentionally hilarious (4.25 / 4) (#43)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 01:01:08 PM EST
    comment of the day; thanks for the laugh.

    Parent
    Are You Kidding? (2.50 / 4) (#63)
    by RickyJim on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 04:50:58 PM EST
    After that devastating report, Chip and the others in the Wilson lynch mob won't touch this case again with a 10 foot pole.  Of course, you Anne will try to figure out how the outcome was a big miscarriage of justice without attacking Mr. Holder.  I hope you will come up with something better than calling those who were right about it, all along, cockroaches.  

    Parent
    Oh, my - your reading comprehension (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 09:01:43 PM EST
    is so deficient that you still haven't figured out I wasn't referring to the public figures you mentioned.

    Someone who would refer to Darren Wilson as a "fine officer" isn't about celebrating the triumph of justice, or anything quite so high-minded; no, what's coming through is a sort of satisfaction that someone's gotten away with something the rest of us find a very ugly act.

    I could probably have come up with a term other than "cockroach," but it seemed as fitting a way to describe the revulsion I feel as anything else.

    Parent

    No, "cockroaches," is fine, (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by NYShooter on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 01:20:43 AM EST
    It's somewhat benign under the circumstances, but a more appropriate and linguistically accurate term would've certainly forced a deletion.

    But, here's what galls me no end: It's the age-old question, do "they," "they" being the likes of Limbaugh, Beck, Alito, et al, and, countless Blog commenters:

    A.    really believe the uninformed, indefensible, anti-social, and, inflammatory crap they spew?

    B.    cling to self-induced willful ignorance for financial, religious, or other pretexts?

    C.    know they're lying, yet continue for certain irresistible gain?

    And, finally, a common thread runs through both the Zimmerman, and the Wilson cases. The commenters we're speaking about, those citadels of truth, justice, and the irrefutable laws of the Constitution, can't seem to get a simple concept through their minds. (and, some of them are self-described, lawyers!).......

    Being found "not guilty, due to a lack of admissible evidence, which was rendered moot due to the only eyewitness, other than the killers, having been killed by the accused, is not proof of being not guilty.


    Parent

    RickyJimboy (none / 0) (#68)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 06:57:25 PM EST
    Chip and the others in the Wilson lynch mob won't touch this case again with a 10 foot pole.

    Don't bet on it. I'm doing what you perpetually fail to do -- I'm reading the report.

    I'm also watching as the entire city government of Ferguson curse Darren Wilson under their breath for bringing this on them.

    They are not cursing Mike Brown but Darren Wilson for his cowardly ignorant indiscretion that opened up this can of worms, that brought in the Feds, that will now cost the city mi$$ions, will cost a lot of Ferguson officers their jobs, and will probably end up in the dissolution of the Ferguson PD.

    They're all thanking Darren under their collective breaths tonight as they worry about having a job tomorrow -- especially Chief Jackson.

    How's that for a 10 foot pole???

    Parent

    Cursing Darren Wilson (2.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Jack203 on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 10:02:19 PM EST
    I don't think anyone is cursing Darren Wilson under their breath.

    The searches and drug arrest data will get Chief Jackson fired.  I, for one, think he should be.

    But those that believed Darren Wilson was guilty were clearly wrong.

    Parent

    If my words (none / 0) (#44)
    by whitecap333 on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 01:11:44 PM EST
    gall you, you will find those of the NYT unendurable.

    Parent
    Even Worse Would be the DOJ Report (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by RickyJim on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 01:24:09 PM EST
    It has the best analysis of what the individual witnesses said and why those witnesses don't support federal prosecution. It is much easier to understand than trying to figure out the Grand Jury transcripts.  The truth can make some people really miserable.  

    Parent
    And the exposure (1.00 / 1) (#53)
    by whitecap333 on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 03:06:02 PM EST
    of the case against Wilson as a sham leaves Eric Holder with about as much credibility as Dorian Johnson.

    Parent
    Wait...don't you guys need some (5.00 / 7) (#54)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 03:08:17 PM EST
    kind of a quorum to have a meeting?

    Parent
    Okay (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by sj on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 05:06:10 PM EST
    That made me laugh. It captures perfectly what my eyebrows were doing.

    Parent
    On the bright side, (1.00 / 2) (#106)
    by whitecap333 on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 12:10:36 PM EST
    the town of Ferguson will grovel and embrace whatever suits the good pleasure of the DOJ, the remaining Whites will flee to self-segregate elsewhere, and all will be happy.

    Is this entirely about race? (none / 0) (#4)
    by McBain on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 01:30:29 AM EST
    Or is it also about class? Do poor white people get arrested more than wealthy white people?  What about poor whites vs. poor blacks, Hispanics and other races?

    "I hope the media keeps the spotlight on it for longer than a day."

    I think the media needs another death and public outrage to last longer than a day.  Maybe the homeless man's death in in LA will do it.  

    As Charlie Pierce has been know to say (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 08:26:26 AM EST
    Of course it is not about race. It is never about race. No racial bias in the city of Ferguson whatsoever. Of course not. From Jeralyn's link:


    In a November 2008 email, a city official said Barack Obama would not be president long because "what black man holds a steady job for four years?" Another email included a cartoon depicting African-Americans as monkeys. A third described black women having abortions as a way to curb crime.


    Parent
    Is anyone in here claiming no racial bias? (none / 0) (#48)
    by McBain on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 01:57:58 PM EST
    I'm interesting in knowing if there are other factors that contribute to the statistics Jeralyn posted.

    Parent
    Maybe you should do some research (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 03:02:56 PM EST
    on the subject. That way you could provide facts. I do suggest that you factor in the fact that rich and famous black men are pulled over for driving while black into your theory on class as part of your research.

    Parent
    It's about race (5.00 / 10) (#17)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 09:52:56 AM EST
    But to complete your thought, EVERYBODY gets arrested more than rich white people.

    I'm white, military vet, home and business owner, live in the suburbs and have a white picket fence.  Still married to my first wife, raised an honor student, I have never been arrested, much less charged with anything.

    White, middle class.  Not many of us left.

    Fifteen years ago I hired a couple of Black men right out of prison.  I could and do mingle in the poor Black enclave where they live and where I'm sometimes the only white guy in a fairly large crowd.  Because of that I was granted honorary "Black" status by the deputies who enforce the law there.

    That meant I was subject to being pulled over without cause and my vehicle searched over my objection.  I was easy to locate, since I drove a big truck with my name in three foot letters.

    Because I'm that kind of guy, I filed a formal complaint about this activity.  I found that the Sheriff's department investigated himself, and denied any impropriety.  When I pointed out that according to no less than the Supreme Court, the deputies' actions were a Fourth Amendment violation, I was informed by a captain the the department that the Supreme Court was wrong about the Fourth Amendment.

    This doesn't happen to you, does it?

    Parent

    Actually you were granted... (none / 0) (#30)
    by unitron on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 12:09:08 PM EST
    ...honorary "This white guy must be here to buy drugs, or else he wouldn't be in this part of town hanging around those people" status.

    If I were in their (the deputies') place I wouldn't automatically assume that was true, but I'd consider it to be a possibility.

    Parent

    Yes, I understand that (5.00 / 5) (#47)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 01:45:37 PM EST
    It does not make it any more legal for a deputy to pull me over on US 101, without an identified Vehicle Code violation, for no reason other than to detain me for a warrant check.  (I knew I was going to be puled over, because as soon as I left the 'hood, I got a cellphone call informing me that I was being stalked by three deputies.)

    A few months after I filed my complaint with the Sheriff's Office, I was pulled over and cited for a seatbelt violation.  I had been set up by a deputy who knew who I was and saw my distinctive vehicle; he had a CHP officer pull us over, and "showed up" a few minutes later to abuse a few civil rights.

    When I took the case to court, I was acquitted, and the judge admonished the CHP officer who executed the stop for lying in his courtroom.

    After the deputy frisked my two (Black) passengers during the traffic stop for the seatbelt violation, he asked if he could search the vehicle.  (He was going to frisk me too, but I told him that he might as well arrest me first, because there was going to be a fight.  He declined and I did not get frisked.  Despite my attitude, I still haven't been arrested for anything.  Sometimes it helps to be white.)  

    When I told the deputy that I did not consent to his search, he said that my objection indicated to him that I was concealing contraband, and searched it anyway.  His search turned up nothing.

    I'm guessing that these things never happen to you.

    Parent

    Well, that sort of thing has certainly happened (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 03:46:22 PM EST
    to me. White guy, alone in car, in a nice part of town.

    So, what does that prove?

    (Neither of our stories prove anything, imo.)

    I don't doubt there is racial bias in the FPD, regardless of the race of the individual LE officers.

    imo, what the whole discussion does not need is stories and statistics, etc., that do not prove what some people hope and wish and fantasize.

    imo, these stories/statistics merely distract the conversation from addressing the specifics that could possibly be corrected.

    Parent

    Tel me your story (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 10:25:28 AM EST
    ...about being pulled over with no violation identified, for no purpose other than to see who you are and run a warrant check.

    I'm interested in your story about being frisked after a citation for a non-moving offense violation.

    When was your vehicle searched over your objection?

    Parent

    Yer kidding, right? You think you are special (none / 0) (#94)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 11:27:39 AM EST
    in this respect?

    You got pulled over one time in your life with no violation identified? Dude, welcome to my entire young adult driving life. And most of my friends too. Multiple times.

    I have had my belongings in my car searched. I have been frisked. I have been stone cold sober and given a field sobriety test.

    And it's not just a being a kid thing, last year my old white a$$ self, with both of my sons in my car with me, was jacklighted by a couple cops and briefly questioned on my own dam street in my nice neighborhood just a few houses down from my own house.

    Does this prove there is no racial bias? Does your story prove that there is?

    Will either of our stories ever lead to any kind of improvements?

    Parent

    I formalized my complaint (5.00 / 4) (#105)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 12:06:39 PM EST
    What did you do about the abuse you suffered?  In my case, a friend on a local PD told me that after I filed my complaint, to watch my back.  He was right, there was retaliation.

    Why don't you fill us in on the details of your multiple unjustified stops and searches, and your response?  

    How many of your friends live in a poor, black enclave?  Until I started spending a lot of time in a predominantly black and poor community, I had no personal experience with the fact that these people have been systematically screwed during the 70 years and three or four generations since their ancestors were brought in as laborers to help build Liberty Ships.  

    My 95 y.o. mother, who worked in the same Liberty Ship yard, still seethes about how respectable, but Black, citizens were abused for generations after the war was over.  They were confined by de facto segregation to crumbing substandard housing, and community services that white people got, were unavailable to them.

    The deputies who serve in that community are being punished for something by that assignment, and they take their resentment out on the locals.  Every day in the 'hood is training day.

    I'm a long way from being Jesus, but I hang out with thieves, criminals and prostitutes, and I manage not to hate them.  I would walk across that community alone and unarmed at 2:00 a.m. and I would not fear for my safety.  None of the deputies would do that.

    I recently sold my business to the two Black guys I hired right out of prison fifteen years ago.  They are doing better with it than I was, because they are motivated, and they understand that this opportunity was never going to happen again.  One of my Black HS classmates tells me that because of what I have done for the local economy, I am certainly the most popular white guy in that entire community, a nice honor if you ask me.

    IOW, I know what happens when you present opportunity and hope to people who never had any of either.  I could not be more proud of my friends for what they have done with their lives since I hired them.  

    The 'hood I hang out in suffers from the same sort of police work that Ferguson does, and if you have not experienced it, you wouldn't know the difference between living there and living in a middle-class suburb.

    I see first-hand how Black people are treated in a relatively enlightened and liberal area like Marin County, California.  I can only imagine how bad it would be for a Black person living in an area where the government was run by conservatives.

    Parent

    You have told us the story of your biz several (none / 0) (#108)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 12:15:18 PM EST
    times before. It is commendable. You are right to feel proud about it.

    Parent
    Sure (none / 0) (#107)
    by Reconstructionist on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 12:12:22 PM EST
     These anecdotes help support the belief that people in certain classes are more likely to be [take your pick] subject to legitimate enforcement of minor code provision/ hassled by the cops.

    When I posted the "world I live in" post, I was alluding to the the fact that "my world" is now that of a middle aged, upper middle class white guy -- and one who looks the (stereotypical) part, clean cut, well dressed, nice car....

     I've always been upper middle class and, of course white, but when I was younger (which is very much a "profiling" factor as well), I wasn't so clean cut or well dressed and often drove  cheaper vehicles. Unsurprisingly, cars I was in then got pulled over and detained  in circumstances I 99.99999% believe (but, yes, Jim, don't "know" as a moral certainty) where I would not today.

      This is not "illogical." Young people are in fact statistically more likely to commit crimes (minor and major) than older ones. Likewise, males are more likely than females, blacks than whites....

      But in this country we should not be subject to disparate treatment based on the application of logic to statistics.

      Obviously, a group of  young black males is statistically far more likely to be involved  in some offense beyond the minor infraction establishing cause for a stop and detention than is an old white women traveling alone. I don't think anyone reasonable disputes that.

      I also, however,  don't think anyone reasonable disputes that these statistical likelihoods (as opposed to particularized suspicion of an individual based on knowledge concerning the individual's behavior) heavily influence law enforcement.

      The real issue at hand is not what the reality is. Certain classes of people contain a higher proportion of people who break the law and are more frequently targeted by the cops. I don't think either of those propositions are debatable in good faith.

      The question is do you or do you not believe it is "right" for people in the groups  known have a higher proportion of " law breakers" to be targeted solely upon membership in that group?

      I do not. I will concede that targeting people based on "group" is  a more "efficient"  method of discovering crime than acting in  a manner "blind" to group membership, but I don't think efficiency is such a paramount goal as to override what I consider more important considerations.

       

    Parent

    The answer is..... (2.00 / 1) (#132)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 02:38:48 PM EST
    No, I do not. And, since we are all getting into personal anecdotes, I was on a local jury that cut a black guy loose on a DWI charge and an evasion charge because it was obvious, using the police's video, that he wasn't drunk and driving a few blocks and then turning into his sister's driveway at 2AM wasn't evasion. BTW - The arresting officer was black.

    Now that I've proved my worth as a good social liberal, I gotta say that the actions of Johnson and Wilson resulted in everything bad that followed.

    You see, THEY started the chain. And the Rev. Al and his merry band of looters made it worse.

    Somehow someway we've got to get the perps to quit perping and the police to quit over reacting.

    Parent

    Anecdotes are fine (none / 0) (#133)
    by Reconstructionist on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 02:47:29 PM EST
     but they should have some logical connection to the issue being discussed.

    Parent
    The connection is that (none / 0) (#154)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 06:45:18 PM EST
    a. Black cops do it too

    b. The system sometimes works for the good.

    Parent

    Except human stories and statistics... (none / 0) (#79)
    by Dadler on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 07:52:17 AM EST
    ...ARE the specifics of the issue, of any social/political issue like this. We're not dealing with shelf-ready widgets here, but with always messy human beings. Honestly, what else would you use but testimony (human stories) and numbers from the field (statistics, compiled by messy humans) to figure out what's wrong and what is needed? A Ouji board? Truth serum? Chappie?

    And I doubt we could talk about a film/tv industry issue/controversy without both of us bringing up our personal experience related to the issue. This is no different. People with bad experiences don't trust the police. Most people who haven't had those bad experiences do trust the police.

    Parent

    Poor is the new black,,, (4.20 / 5) (#7)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 07:54:38 AM EST
    in some respects of criminal justice, you bet...but the fact remains the only thing harder than being white and poor is being black and poor.

    Parent
    Cops in the family... (none / 0) (#19)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 10:52:28 AM EST
    My mother's current husband (number five, for those of you keeping score) is a black man in his mid-60s, and make no mistake he is black as night like I am white as a marshmallow, and whose name, and his name, which I am changing here just enough to make him anonymous, is Omar Hashmeem. Now, obviously, this is all the hue and moniker one needs to get hassled on any trip to the airport, get spied on extra hard by the feds. But the rub is he's an ex-cop and former FBI agent, who now runs a private security firm, and he's on a special list that frees him from TSA humiliation at the airport. At family get-togethers, granted few and far between, he always sort of clams up when any police related discussions come up. He doesn't get pissed and defensive, doesn't go on the offensive, doesn't do anything, just sits there with zipped lips and listens. One of these days I will crack his code and figure out what he's really thinking, or I'll throw back a few extra fairway beers and ask him straight out as we hit golf balls, since he has occupied a very unique position in society and law enforcement throughout his life.

    DOJ Report (none / 0) (#75)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Mar 04, 2015 at 10:08:42 PM EST
    Witnesses with Credible Accounts per DOJ Report:

    Witness 102: "Witness 102's vantage point was street level about 450 feet from the SUV" -- one and a half football fields away from the action.[p27]

    Witness 103: a convicted felon who served time in a federal prison who claims to have been in a blue pickup right next to the SUV -- a blue pickup that no one ever saw or reported as being at the scene. [p29]

    Witness 104: 300 feet away in a minivan in middle row behind driver jawboning with her sister who hears two shots then looks up and sees Brown with his arms inside the SUV. Yes even after the two shots hit by one and yet he's still diddling inside the SUV in no hurry to run -- really!!!

    Witness 108: who refused to identify himself, or give any details that might indicate that he was a witness to anything, who refused to appear to the GJ even when subpoenaed. Another reliable witness???

    Witness 113: "gave an account that generally corroborated Wilson" but only after knowingly lying through her teeth and getting caught and leaned on. But she's dependable -- really???

    Witness 134: Darren Wilson's girlfriend -- really??? a dependable objective witness???

    These are the credible witnesses that the DOJ based their decision on.

    Wrong Chip; Put Down the Bottle! (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by RickyJim on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 09:19:02 AM EST
    The DOJ based their decision on the lack of a credible witness that would support a prosecution.  This is a typical evaluation.
    Witness 128 has been convicted of multiple felonies including crimes of dishonesty, all of which would be admissible in federal court as impeachment evidence. Witness 128's accounts are inconsistent with each other, inconsistent with the forensic and physical evidence, and inconsistent with credible witness accounts. Accordingly, after a thorough review of the evidence, federal prosecutors determined this witness's accounts to lack credibility and therefore do not support a prosecution of Darren Wilson.

    For the hundredth time, The Prosecution has the burden of proof.


    Parent
    Flawed stats (none / 0) (#82)
    by vicndabx on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 09:15:38 AM EST
    and at the end as a sort of PC CYA, I say "they may be flawed, but the conclusions are valid." If the stats are flawed how can the conclusions be valid?

    Stop trying to bend both ways so much, you're gonna break under all that pressure.  Choose a side already.  All that prevarication is obvious. Those that constantly question whether something is valid aren't truly interested in having the "conversation."

    The smoking shirt (none / 0) (#100)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 11:42:40 AM EST
    Lookey what they found and where they found it:

    Gunshot Residue on the right sleeve of Brown's Shirt around three bullet holes and nowhere else on the shirt. [pp23-24]

    That means that the barrel of the gun would have been within 18 inches of his shoulder pointed toward his shoulder when fired with his thumb somewhere in between -- kind of like in an arm-wrestling position as several credible witnesses testified to.

    The thumb could not possibly have been inside the SUV when the gun fired. It would have been up by the right shirt sleeve.

    The bullet would have grazed the thumb, then passed through the right sleeve/arm before coming to rest in the  building down the street where it was found.

    The DOJ like SLCPD misses this entirely doing their best to dance around it.

    This evidence puts the gun at/outside the window when fired -- not inside the SUV -- thus making mincemeat out of Wilson's story of a "struggle for the gun".

    BTW Bob McCullough in his statement described what took place at the window of the SUV as "an altercation" not a "struggle for the gun".

    He knew that Wilson was lying about the struggle for the gun because not only was there no physical evidence for it but he also had Brown's shirt which testified to the contrary.

    No wonder they kept it under wraps --

    The DOJ giveth and the DOJ taketh away (none / 0) (#124)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 01:56:57 PM EST
    From the report pg 81

    The evidence does not support concluding that Wilson shot Brown while Brown's back was toward Wilson.... because the physical evidence establishes that there were no entry wounds to Brown's back, although there was a wound to the anatomical back of Brown's right arm and a graze wound to Brown's right arm.

    A big "although" --

    So while there is no shot in the back of the back, there is a shot in the back of the arm which could have happened in only one of two ways: being shot in the back of the arm with back turned or being shot from the front with his arm up in the air -- both equally bad for team Wilson.

    Assuming facts not in evidence. (none / 0) (#126)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 02:02:58 PM EST


    Parent
    Both (none / 0) (#145)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 04:24:18 PM EST
    are in evidence in the Grand Jury report.

    See Dr Baden's testimony before the GJ.  He was most insistent under oath that the one to the back of the arm had to have come from behind.

    Parent

    omg, the Baden card. You have lost all (none / 0) (#151)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 05:02:50 PM EST
    credibility.

    Just so I know you know, and so we all know you are not just clueless, when people accelerate and move quickly and run, the part of the arm that faces mostly backwards when you walk, comes up in front of the body, and is wide open there to get hit by a shot from the front.

    iow, your "could have happened in only one of two ways" is completely false.

    Pretty sure this has been discussed at length, please stop repeating your false statements.

    Parent

    SUO (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 11:19:00 PM EST
    You'll have to talk to the DOJ about that -- after all they were the ones citing Dr Baden's conclusion  in that regard in their report.

    Now get off my screen and stay off --

    Parent

    What?! If you are referring to the Wilson DOJ (none / 0) (#169)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 12:04:59 PM EST
    report or the Ferguson DOJ report, neither of them come anywhere near to what you are saying.

    There was nothing in the Ferguson report and this is what the Wilson DOJ report says:

    Given the mobility of the arm, it is impossible to determine the position of the body relative to the shooter at the time the arm wounds were inflicted. Therefore, the autopsy results do not indicate whether Brown was facing Wilson or had his back to him. They do not indicate whether Brown sustained those two arm wounds while his hands were up, down, or by his waistband. The private forensic pathologist opined that he would expect a re-entry wound across Brown's stomach if Brown's hand was at his waistband at the time Wilson fired. However, as mentioned, there is no way to know the exact position of Brown's arm relative to his waistband at the time the bullets struck. Therefore, these gunshot wounds neither corroborate nor discredit Wilson's account or the account of any other witness.

    Please stop posting false information.

    Parent

    Just heard Daryl Parks, (none / 0) (#156)
    by whitecap333 on Thu Mar 05, 2015 at 09:53:40 PM EST
    on the Kelly file, huff that he intended to pursue a federal case here.  When pressed for his theory of the case, he responded that "He [Wilson] didn't have to kill the child."  He won't get far with such mawkish claptrap in federal court.  In a Sec. 1983 suit, he will have the burden of proving that Officer Wilson did not reasonably fear for his safety.  Parks disclaimed any intention of alleging that Wilson was racially motivated, but averred that the DOJ investigation showed a "pattern and practice" of discrimination against (No, I'm not making this up) people who walk.  

    This is becoming a farce.

    Whiteline (none / 0) (#159)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 12:07:35 AM EST
    Well see here's the problem for Team Wilson:

    The Ferguson PD, bruised and battered by the DOJ civil rights investigation, will be sitting next to Wilson in court pointing fingers at him and vice versa.

    Though many will be hoping for a good show and an explanation for so many procedural irregularities demonstrated by all that day, the parties will likely settle out of court.

    The news of this today sent Wilson's attorney into deep upset mode in his television interview. He was definitely not happy.

    I for one would like for the key witness who said he saw the whole thing with precision from 450 feet away through trees, bushes and vehicles, to have a chance to demonstrate his marvelous x-ray vision in open court.

    And maybe since all will have to be in court at the same time everybody will finally synchronize their clocks and get their times right.


    Parent

    The jury pool (none / 0) (#163)
    by whitecap333 on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 01:35:06 AM EST
    from this judicial district of 5 counties will be predominately White.  You are obviously clueless about how most Whites view the hatchet job orchestrated by the DOJ here.

    I look for the plaintiffs' star witness, Dorian Johnson, to be laughed out of court.

    Any claims asserted against Officer Wilson can't be settled without his consent.

    Parent

    Whitey (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 09:10:42 AM EST
    I look for the plaintiffs' star witness, Dorian Johnson, to be laughed out of court.

    Not after the revelations in the DOJ report that had been suspiciously withheld from the Grand Jury report:

    DOJ Report Ballistics: Gunshot Residue on Brown's shirt.

    Nitrite residues were found near three  holes in Brown's right sleeve, and one hole in the right chest of his shirt.

    That puts the barrel of the gun within 18 inches of his upper arm when fired -- at or outside the window aimed at the upper arm -- not inside the SUV hitting the hand.

    This is pretty clear evidence that Johnson was telling the truth about Brown being shot in the upper arm at the SUV, and that Wilson committed perjury before the GJ.

    Worst of all, McCulloch withheld this ballistics information from the public and the GJ report. Is it any wonder???

    BTW the GSR near the "one hole in the right chest of his shirt" is also problematic for Wilson.

    Parent

    Do you think no one will read the report? (none / 0) (#170)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 12:11:28 PM EST
    That your false information will be allowed to stand?

    iii. Gunshot Residue on Brown's Shirt

    Witness 144 conducted gunshot residue analysis on Brown's shirt. For the most part,gunshot residue analysis can only determine whether defects in an item, i.e., the holes in his shirt, are the result of gunshots.

    Analysis cannot determine the directional travel of bullets.

    Witness 144 examined seven holes in the shirt. Gunshot residues in the form of nitrite and bullet wipe lead residues were found near some of the holes. This does not necessarily suggest that the remaining holes were not created by bullets.

    According to Witness 144, lack of 24 gunshot residue could be due to the possibility of intervening conditions, like large amounts of
    blood, environmental conditions, or the way
    the shirt was folded and packaged.

    Likewise, the presence of nitrite residues tells very little. Nitrite residues were found near three holes in Brown's right sleeve, and one hole in the right chest of this shirt.

    Test-firing of the gun showed that nitrite residues appear at a muzzle-to-target distance of eight feet or less, consistent with Wilson's description and several other witness descriptions that Wilson and Brown were about eight feet apart during the final shots. However, the residues were not in a measurable pattern.

    This means that they may not even be associated with the specific holes in the shirt that they are near, but rather may be just indiscriminate residue from any of the shots, including the close range shots at the SUV, or transferred from one shot to another during the handling and packaging of the clothes.



    Parent
    SUO (none / 0) (#171)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 12:47:50 PM EST
    So did anything you just posted negate this fact from the report:

    Nitrite residues were found near three  holes in Brown's right sleeve, and one hole in the right chest of his shirt.

    What does that mean and why is it important ???

    Now go back and take your nap --

    Parent

    It sure does not nean this: (none / 0) (#172)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 01:33:13 PM EST
    That puts the barrel of the gun within 18 inches of his upper arm when fired -- at or outside the window aimed at the upper arm -- not inside the SUV hitting the hand.

    This is pretty clear evidence that Johnson was telling the truth about Brown being shot in the upper arm at the SUV, and that Wilson committed perjury before the GJ.

    Please stop posting false information.

    Parent

    SUO (none / 0) (#175)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 02:40:58 PM EST
    Please stop posting -- you're embarrassing yourself.

    Parent
    ROTFL (none / 0) (#176)
    by RickyJim on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 06:55:53 PM EST
    Sorry that I previously posted that after the DOJ report you would stop your nonsense.  

    Parent
    That makes me think... (none / 0) (#179)
    by Jack E Lope on Mon Mar 09, 2015 at 10:46:09 AM EST

    Test-firing of the gun showed that nitrite residues appear at a muzzle-to-target distance of eight feet or less, consistent with Wilson's description and several other witness descriptions that Wilson and Brown were about eight feet apart during the final shots.


    That makes me think that the test they give to determine if someone recently fired a gun (by testing for residue on the hand) could give a positive if that hand was in the vicinity of a gun when fired.

    There may be a lot of convictions that used such a test as a vital component of the prosecution's case against a particular suspect...but the test could be positive for everyone at the scene.

    Parent

    I don't understand why they let Parks do (none / 0) (#160)
    by McBain on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 12:48:17 AM EST
    interviews.  He never makes a good case for his clients and is easily tripped up by the interviewers. If it goes to trial, I'm curious to see who would present the case in the courtroom.  Has anyone seen Parks or Crump in action? Do they have someone else?

    Parent
    I think I remember you (none / 0) (#162)
    by NYShooter on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 01:11:03 AM EST
    stating that you were/are an attorney a while ago. Is that true, or did I "mis-remember" that comment?

    Parent
    I am not an attorney... never was (none / 0) (#168)
    by McBain on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 11:38:42 AM EST


    Parent
    Parks and Crump are not Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#164)
    by RickyJim on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 07:27:35 AM EST
    I believe actual trials are handled by their partner, Robert S. Cox who, by the way, is white.

    Parent
    The rest of the story: (none / 0) (#165)
    by whitecap333 on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 09:08:33 AM EST
    Holder Frames Ferguson PD for Racism Using Bogus "Disparate Impact" Stats, Investor's Business Daily, 3-5-15.  The emails which so vexed Holder are also addressed.

    The others -- (none / 0) (#167)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Mar 06, 2015 at 10:43:43 AM EST
    Meet 3 Ferguson employees cited by DOJ for racism & corruption now in charge of cleaning up the city

    This should open some eyes and give everybody a peek into the systemic corruption inside the Ferguson and the surrounding fiefdoms that prey on the working poor both black and white and see nothing wrong with gunning down jaywalkers for talking back to their masters.

    How often, do you suppose.... (none / 0) (#177)
    by unitron on Sat Mar 07, 2015 at 04:42:19 AM EST
    ...that police guess or make an assumption about the economic status of a person whom they have just encountered, and get it wrong by a factor of 5 or 10, i.e., think someone making $50,000 to $100,000 per year is only making $10,000, or think someone only making $20,000 is making $100,000 to $200,000?

    In other words, is it necessary for them to inquire into economic status in the first place?

    They learn... (none / 0) (#178)
    by Jack E Lope on Mon Mar 09, 2015 at 10:36:41 AM EST
    We do not authorize law enforcement officers to inquire into "economic status" before deciding whether to enforce the law.

    Not explicitly, we don't.  But they learn.

    DOJ Report Confirms Ferguson's Racially Biased Policing | 175 comments (175 topical)

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