home

Thursday. Open thread

By Jeralyn, Section Colorado News
Posted on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 07:40:36 AM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

Here is a new open thread. All topics welcome.

< Wednesday Open Thread | Pre-College Football Open Thread >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Thursday. Open thread | 211 comments (211 topical)
    California Settles Solitary Confinement Lawsuit (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 08:19:29 AM EST
    This is a 'Game-Changer.'  California had led the nation in keeping people in cold storage," said forensic psychiatrist Terry Kupers, one of several criminal justice experts who had filed research findings in the case...

    Ending years of litigation, hunger strikes and contentious debate, California has agreed to move thousands of state prisoners out of solitary confinement under the terms of a landmark lawsuit settlement.

    Corrections officials, who have long used indefinite isolation to control violent prison gangs, will cease the practice and return nearly 2,000 inmates to the general population, according to the agreement announced Tuesday.

    - Paige St. John, Tribune News Service, August 2, 2015

    This just in (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by CoralGables on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 09:15:54 AM EST
    and as expected:

    Judge Richard Berman has overturned Tom Brady's four-game suspension.

    As it should be! (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by masslib on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 09:34:32 AM EST


    Parent
    Watch this year... (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Dadler on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 10:01:04 AM EST
    ...as the Patriots fumble total goes back to the league average. Forget Tom's comfort with a Nerf ball in his hand, fumble prevention was the biggest beneficiary for those cheaters. He'll break his leg this year if there is any justice in the universe. He is the supermodel of the NFL. Eff him.

    Parent
    Like Belichick... (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 12:02:01 PM EST
    ...doesn't have a Plan B.

    George Costanza replied when asked why he cheated:

    Because I am a cheater.


    Parent
    Cheaters cheat :) (none / 0) (#185)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 12:23:22 PM EST


    Parent
    The Pats o-line better do more holding (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 11:55:12 AM EST
    than usual - which may require watching some WWF videos in preparation - when Tom and Co go up against Marcel Dareus, Mario and Kyle Williams this season..

    Parent
    I have no doubt that some day, (none / 0) (#20)
    by Anne on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 09:56:14 AM EST
    a scan or MRI will reveal that Brady has a horseshoe firmly seated in his lower colon.

    Next question: when is Bob Kraft giving those two equipment guys their jobs back?

    Also, what effect will there be from the court having essentially completely fked with a collective bargaining agreement?  

    Parent

    It was never in doubt (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by CoralGables on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 09:59:34 AM EST
    Ruling with an iron fist, aka punishing with no evidence, is a losing hand unless you own an army.

    Parent
    So is overturning (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by jbindc on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 11:27:38 AM EST
    A collectively bargained agreement.  This was only a ruling on procedure of the arbitration and not the underlying facts themselves.  Now will Goddell take the chance and appeal to the 2nd Circuit?  

    See Steve Garvey.

    I hope every referee triple checks the Patriots' game balls this year - to the pont of being annoying to the Patriots, but knowing them, they'll find some other way to cheat.

    Will be great to see regular fumble stats from them.

    Parent

    Well, Goodell and the League (none / 0) (#46)
    by Zorba on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 11:48:08 AM EST
    Don't have much time left.  The Patriot's first game is a week away.
    Personally, I think that the ruling will be appealed by the Pittsburgh Steelers, joined by the Bills, Jaguars, and Cowboys.  
    ;-)
    (Yes, it's a joke.)

    Parent
    This is a... (none / 0) (#48)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 11:52:34 AM EST
    ...win/win for Goodell.  The option he would have chosen if he could have on day one, look like the enforcer and Brady plays.

    Parent
    The ruling had nothing to do with evidence, ... (none / 0) (#45)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 11:42:14 AM EST
    ... which in my opinion was more than sufficient to establish Tom Brady's culpability in the actual scheme to deflate footballs. Rather, Judge Richard M. Berman focused upon what he saw as the NFL's violation of Brady's right to due process, as provided by terms of the collective bargaining agreement between the league and the NFL Players Association.

    I think it's important to note that Judge Berman accepted the Arbitrator's actual findings of fact in this matter which, as he pointed out, are generally not subject to judicial review in any event. Instead, he found that Brady's four-game suspension was "premised upon several significant legal deficiencies."

    Berman took specific issue with the NFL's punishment because as he saw it, Brady had been given no notice by Commissioner Roger Goodell that he could be suspended four games for:

    • Being generally aware that two Patriot equipment managers were deflating footballs in direct violation of league rules;
    • His participation in any such scheme to deflate footballs; and
    • His non-cooperation with the league's investigation.

    And according to Berman, "Brady also had no notice that his discipline would be the equivalent of the discipline imposed upon a player who used performance enhancing drugs."

    The judge further criticized the NFL for denying Brady equal access to investigative files and witness interview notes, and denying him an opportunity to directly examine one of the league's two lead investigators.

    Speaking for myself only, this was the equivalent of having a sentence overturned on a technicality. It's an important distinction, to be sure, if the NFL did indeed violate Brady's right to due process per the collective bargaining agreement, as the NFL Players Association had contended in this case. But it's a technicality nonetheless.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    an illegal search (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by CST on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 11:48:43 AM EST
    Is also just a "technicality".

    But it should matter.  And I know a lot of people hate Brady, but that's really besides the point when it comes to this case.

    Parent

    The Walkaway... (none / 0) (#50)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 11:58:26 AM EST
    ...don't comply with the NFL investigation and you won't get punished if your name is Tom Brady.

    This is funny, Tom seems to have gotten a little testy at home over being called a cheater.

    Parent

    Sure, but (none / 0) (#51)
    by jbindc on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 12:00:43 PM EST
    Pats fans will feel vindicated (even though the judge dud acceot as fact that Brady et al cheated) while the rest of the world knows (again) that they got away with it.

    Go Steelers!

    Parent

    Well, there would be (none / 0) (#61)
    by Zorba on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 12:47:45 PM EST
    more than a little bit of schadenfreude if the Steelers completely obliterate the Patriots next Thursday.   ;-)

    Parent
    The Steelers (none / 0) (#62)
    by jbindc on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    Are my second nd favorite team, so I would root for them anyway.

    But now I'm gonna roit extra hard.

    Parent

    Much Like the Lions... (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 01:27:56 PM EST
    ...all the cheering in the world can't make them win.

    We, the Pack, haVE da Bears at home on Thanksgiving and Detroit has the Eagles.  I think the Eagles are going to be tough this year, but those GD Lions are going to actually make good on their promises one of these years...

    The Pats & Steelers have the opening game this year, Thursday the 10th.  That is a fricken week away, wahooo....

    Parent

    Ahem (none / 0) (#80)
    by jbindc on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 02:25:00 PM EST
    As a first and foremost Lions fan, all I can say, is well, I hope so.

    Deadspin hasn't gotten to the Packers yet, but here's something you should love about the Lions.

    Why your team sucks - Detroit Lions

    Yeah, yeah, we know.

    Parent

    I Forgot About Suh (none / 0) (#85)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 02:47:36 PM EST
    Scratch the making good comment.

    In case you haven't seen the obnoxiousness, here is a video of what the Detroit fans pay for.

    Parent

    Ha. (none / 0) (#90)
    by jbindc on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 03:10:32 PM EST
    Here's another ode to Lions fans - from a couple of years ago. A few parodies off the "Pure Michigan" ad campaign.

    (Some language, so if you are at work, turn down the volume a bit)

    Link

    Parent

    I Think... (none / 0) (#93)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 03:19:51 PM EST
    ...I posted that a long time ago.

    Did not know it was a related to a campaign.

    Parent

    If the NFL violated the CBA, I agree. (none / 0) (#66)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 01:22:38 PM EST
    It still doesn't vacate the actual findings of fact in this matter, which are that Tom Brady (a) likely cheated by getting those two equipment managers to deflate footballs for him prior to games in direct violation of league rules; and then (b) obstructed Mr. Wells's investigation into the matter through his non-cooperation and apparent destruction of evidence.

    And of these three individuals implicated in this scheme, only the two low-level schmucks are punished. For all practical purposes at this point, Tom Brady has basically skated.

    And so, with the harmonious equilibrium of our universe now having been restored, my belief in the American concept of justice is thus reaffirmed, in that its attainment is available to those who can afford it.

    :-P

    Parent

    Well If You Are Applying... (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 01:43:38 PM EST
    ...the term 'American Justice' to professional sports in which air was let of balls.

    In the scheme of American Justice, this is so dumb that it doesn't even deserve to be in the same sentence.  Yeah he should have been suspended, yeah he cheated, but to invoke American Justice is a wee bit over the top considering he broke a rule, he did not go a crime spree.

    Parent

    I was being facetious, Scott. (none / 0) (#100)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 04:02:48 PM EST
    All I'm saying is that Tom Brady and the NFLPA had the money to afford themselves sufficient legal leverage with the legal system, and that system ultimately delivered on their behalf.

    That their case about the NFL's violation of due process may have had merit is beside the point here. Most people with even more compelling civil cases don't possess the financial resources to take on a multi-billion dollar business like pro football and see it through to a successful conclusion.

    And speaking of people with lack of resources, as far those two poor schlubs who agreed to do Brady's bidding and lost their jobs are concerned, I'm afraid that they'll have to depend on karma for any sense of justice on their own behalf. Or maybe, karma's already exacted its due and they're simply SOL.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Far too often, Donald, (none / 0) (#106)
    by Zorba on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 04:39:12 PM EST
    It's the "little guys" who take the fall, and who have little or no recourse.  
    It's the way of the world, unfortunately.

    Parent
    Most people don't have the union protections (none / 0) (#130)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 08:35:20 AM EST
    of the NFLPA. This case is a good advertisement for strong unions.

    Parent
    Rashamon (none / 0) (#74)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 01:56:10 PM EST


    Parent
    if you read the ruling (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by CST on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 11:41:08 AM EST
    he didn't overturn or mess with a collective bargaining agreement.  It was more or less that NFL did not uphold their end of the agreement.

    Whether Tom Brady cheated or not is really besides the point for this ruling.

    Link
    "Judge Richard M. Berman of Federal District Court in Manhattan did not rule on whether Brady tampered with the footballs in a bid for competitive advantage. Instead, he focused on the narrower question of whether the collective bargaining agreement between the N.F.L. and the players union gave Goodell the authority to carry out the suspension. Judge Berman ruled that it did not."

    Parent

    Please explain why the appeal (none / 0) (#31)
    by oculus on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 10:28:59 AM EST
    of Goodell's decision was decided in federal district court (as opposed to a state court).  [Yes, I have googled.]

    Parent
    That's where the NFL filed (none / 0) (#32)
    by CoralGables on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 10:34:12 AM EST
    No idea why it happened that way as I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#52)
    by jbindc on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 12:01:43 PM EST
    The NFLPA filed first in the district court in Minnesota.  Then the NFL filed in NY.

    Parent
    The NFL actually filed it first (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by CoralGables on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 12:06:46 PM EST
    to circumvent the union who was filing in Minnesota. They both tried to cherry pick their court. The NFL won the cherry-picking and still lost the case.

    Parent
    If you're interested (none / 0) (#33)
    by CoralGables on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 10:36:21 AM EST
    in the 40 page decision

    Parent
    Links to stories on today's DeflateGate deflation (none / 0) (#40)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 11:33:55 AM EST
    The New York Times story.

    The Washington Post story.

    The ABA Journal story on Sony's deflation of "Concussion," because of NFL pressure.

    Parent

    The parties alleged the federal district (none / 0) (#42)
    by oculus on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 11:35:40 AM EST
    court had jurisdiction under the "federal question" statute. I can't figure out what the federal question is and the court did not address jurisdiction.

    Parent
    Maybe because (none / 0) (#55)
    by jbindc on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 12:14:45 PM EST
    The arbitration result in dispute, was one that was bargained and agreed to by parties in mulitple jurisdictions?  Also because the outcome affects things in multiple jurisdictions? (For example, Brady plays in multiple cities).

    Parent
    I think the federal question stems from (none / 0) (#59)
    by oculus on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 12:38:48 PM EST
    the Sherman Act and the Clayton Act.

    Parent
    What was at dispute, jb, was ... (none / 0) (#182)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 12:01:18 PM EST
    ... Goodell's four-game suspension of Brady, and not the Arbitrator's findings of fact, which as Judge Berman noted are generally not reviewable by the court in any event. The NFLPA argued that Goodell violated Brady's right to due process under the collective bargaining agreement, and Berman agreed.

    Parent
    Little discussion here on the refugee (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 09:33:15 AM EST
    crisis in Europe. My opinion is probably not popular here, but maybe it's time for Europe to take more interest in the goings on of ISIS and should step up to take them out.

    I believe wholeheartedly that ISIS is a creation of the United States' blunders in Iraq. Thank you Bush and dark lord Cheney. But now the aftermath is affecting nearly the entire world. We broke it and don't have the will to fix it. I don't want to see US troops back in Iraq, however I also believe that ISIS is the personification of real evil. They need to eliminated. Stopped from breathing air.

    The refugee crisis seems to me, to be an opportunity to create a real coalition of armed forces. It is in Europe's best interests now, to end ISIS or the flow of humanity will not stop.

    It works for me (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 09:45:34 AM EST
    saw something this morning I thought was quite moving.

    editorial cartoons are not always funny

    Parent

    The refugees are not just fleeing ISIS. (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by caseyOR on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 11:16:52 AM EST
    Defeating ISIS is important in and of itself, but defeating ISIS will not end the migration of refugees. They are fleeing the effects of global climate change. This is not new information, but it is information that is almost never discussed.

    For three years now, leading security and climate experts -- and Syrians themselves -- have made the connection between climate change and the Syrian civil war. Indeed, when a major peer-reviewed study came out on in March making this very case, Retired Navy Rear Admiral David Titley said it identifies “a pretty convincing climate fingerprint" for the Syrian drought.
    Titley, a meteorologist who led the U.S. Navy's Task Force on Climate Change when he was at the Pentagon, also said, "you can draw a very credible climate connection to this disaster we call ISIS right now."
    Compare the words of Admiral Titley -- former Deputy Assistant Chief of Naval Operations for Information Dominance (!) and currently Director of Penn State's Center for Solutions to Weather and Climate Risks. -- with O'Malley's (video here):
    "One of the things that preceded the failure of the nation-state of Syria and the rise of ISIS was the effect of climate change and the mega-drought that affected that region, wiped out farmers, drove people to cities, created a humanitarian crisis that created the symptoms -- or rather, the conditions -- of extreme poverty that has led now to the rise of ISIL and this extreme violence."

    This article goes on in greater detail.

    Until we get serious about confronting climate change, until we accept that hard choices must be made about how we fuel our world and must be made now if not sooner, we will experience more and more human tragedy as people struggle and fight to save themselves and their families.

    Parent

    What was it that mankind did (none / 0) (#134)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:05:00 AM EST
    that caused the Medieval Warming Period which was followed by the Mini Ice Age???

    Parent
    I don't know ,JIim.. (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:49:42 AM EST
    today's cutting-edge conservative researchers say it had something to do with Adam and Eve's actions in the Garden, rampant fornication, and devil worship.

    Parent
    ISIS does not wear uniforms (none / 0) (#23)
    by Dadler on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 10:05:45 AM EST
    And with the number of heavy weapons littering that region, you are talking, still, a couple of decades of bloodshed to go about it that way, short of a complete occupation that would include, say, 20 million foreign troops. As such, you'd be better to simply advocate carpet bombing, cuz in the long run, ironically, you'd probably kill fewer people. The best thing is for people everywhere to throw off the shackles of every ridiculous paradigm humanity has created and just be decent to each other. Offer those refugees the greatest opportunity people have ever seen, and offer it to your own citizens too. Lead by overly human EXAMPLE.

    Parent
    Yes, we don't have the Glorious Koran (none / 0) (#41)
    by jondee on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 11:34:08 AM EST
    we have the Glorious Free Market with it's ensuing every-man-for-himself free for all..

    A shoddy substitute paradigm which is, in part, what radical fundamentalists are reacting to.

    Parent

    It Was Broke... (none / 0) (#39)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 11:30:44 AM EST
    ...long before GWB tried to fix it, but in their hast to repair it, they actually worked on the wrong part, and broke something that was working.  And it's not that we don't have the will, we cannot fix it.

    I am all for stepping in if we could end Islamic extremism in the Middle East and give these people some comfort/rest.

    The real question, is are we going to step up and start taking refugees.  I really hope so, and I am pretty sure I know where the GOP stands on helping the people they screwed over, but damn, kids/people dying to escape the horrors that we, in some part, helped create.

    Let's not forget about the crisis just to the south of us in which the violence is making El Salvador one of most violent countries on the planet.  I believe they have the highest murder rates in the world, surpassing the rate during their civil war.  It's bad.

    Parent

    Liar Liar (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by FlJoe on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 10:07:50 AM EST
    pants on fire . From Dick "I didn't do emails" Cheney
    "The day I walked into my new office as the Vice-President, there was a computer there that I had them immediately remove.
    .

    That's sure an odd looking typewriter on your desk there you lying POS.

    Mad Dog's typewriter has stereo speakers. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 10:42:27 AM EST


    Parent
    Mad Dog also has (none / 0) (#43)
    by fishcamp on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 11:37:04 AM EST
    one of those incredibly expensive Remington bronzes of cowboys and indians behind him on a table.  What do I have behind my desk?  A batch of tarnished silver plate ski trophies, but at least I didn't lie to get them, I won them.  There are a few second and third place trophies too, that actually have plastic stands.  Oh well, I wasn't VP either, thankfully.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#35)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 10:46:23 AM EST
    and apparently Condi Rice was lying about not using email either.

    Parent
    jondee (1.00 / 2) (#211)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Sep 05, 2015 at 12:03:25 PM EST
    what did the Pope know when he forced Galileo to spend the rest of his life under house arrest?? What did Washington's doctors know when they killed him by bleeding him as treatment for pneumonia? What did the doctors in Europe know when they opposed the germ theory? What did they know when they had consensus that the bumps on the head proved criminality????

    Consensus is not science. Even worse the 97% number is not true.

    "Cook survey included 10 of my 122 eligible papers. 5/10 were rated incorrectly. 4/5 were rated as endorse rather than neutral."

    --Dr. Richard Tol

    "That is not an accurate representation of my paper . . ."

    --Dr. Craig Idso

    "Nope . . . it is not an accurate representation."

    --Dr. Nir Shaviv

    "Cook et al. (2013) is based on a strawman argument . . ."

    --Dr. Nicola Scafetta

    Think about how many times you hear that 97 percent or some similar figure thrown around. It's based on crude manipulation propagated by people whose ideological agenda it serves. It is a license to intimidate.

    It's time to revoke that license.

    BTW John Cook is a cartoonist

    jondee, I understand that you have no background in engineering and/or science and that your political belief system is the far Left. But the facts don't support the theory. Indeed time after time the hoaxers have been shown to be wrong.

    A theory that cannot be tested and the results cannot predicted is just a faith based theory. Just like the church I will attend tomorrow.

    Think of gravity. Think of an apple falling from a tree and you standing under it.

    Interesting Happening in the GOP Today (none / 0) (#1)
    by CoralGables on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 08:09:52 AM EST
    Trump to meet with Reince Priebus and Trump holding a press conference at 2:00pm

    Not sure where it's going but the best line I've seen on the topic is from Greg Sargent of the Washington Post:

    So... GOP establishment is responding to anti-establishment Trump surge by demanding statement of loyalty to GOP establishment?
    Can't believe he will sign (none / 0) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 08:28:14 AM EST
    but if he does he will get some assurances of his own.  Alternatively he might sign with the caveat "if you are nice to me"

    Parent
    Keep in mind (none / 0) (#9)
    by CoralGables on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 08:59:30 AM EST
    There is nothing legally binding by signing.

    Parent
    That is What I Was Thinking (none / 0) (#12)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 09:19:04 AM EST
    Trump is on-board until he isn't.

    Parent
    Yeah...as anyone who as ever done a deal with him (none / 0) (#131)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 08:36:48 AM EST
    knows...if he wants out or a way around it, he will find it.

    Parent
    It is always risky to (none / 0) (#10)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 09:08:31 AM EST
    predict what Trump will do.  Much leverage exits in Trump not signing, and it would seem reasonable for him to continue, as in the first debate,  "not to raise his hand."  Therefore, I feel that he WILL sign.   He has now tasted the sweetness of being not only a Republican party contender, but also, a front runner.

    Parent
    Devils advocate (none / 0) (#18)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 09:42:59 AM EST
    it could be a trap.  An idiotic trap but the best they can do.  Get him to sign the pledge and them unleash the wrath of the 7 hells on him.

    Parent
    Yes, that mentality seems (none / 0) (#27)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 10:17:45 AM EST
    right up the conga line's alley.  Trump is beyond awful they will say.  And, then when he gets the nomination of the Republican party, they will endorse and support him.

    Parent
    Of course they will (none / 0) (#30)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 10:24:22 AM EST
    many including Lindsey Graham have said so.

    Parent
    Clerk Davis of Rowan County, (none / 0) (#2)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 08:14:25 AM EST
    KY is to appear in federal court today at 11 am.  The Court should levy a heavy fine on the County. Say, $1000 per day until the clerk's office complies with the Court order.  Clerk Davis is a responsibility  of the county, as an elected official.  A personal fine is likely to be paid by her Christian supporters,  Of course, not adhering to the law is OK if it is something they support.   Jail time, could come later, if necessary.   All the fines could be refunded to the county upon compliance, i.e, she does her job.     The county taxpayers faced with increases in taxes, are less likely to become martyrs to their cause.

    I was hoping for 1000 a day (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 08:25:59 AM EST
    doubling every day until she complies.  That should keep her internet fundraisers busy.

    Parent
    Yonkers 1989s (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 08:49:32 AM EST
    In 1988, after Judge Sand imposed contempt-of-court fines that doubled every day, the Council acquiesced and voted to approve the court-ordered desegregation plan. By the time of the vote, though, Yonkers had already racked up $819,000 in nonrefundable fines. If the plan had not been approved, the city would have had to lay off hundreds of workers to pay the mounting fines.


    Parent
    Jail it is (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Peter G on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 12:19:46 PM EST
    until she agrees to comply. A sad state of affairs, but lawful and apparently necessary.

    Parent
    Agreed, it's sad but necessary. (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 04:20:14 PM EST
    Peter G: "A sad state of affairs, but lawful and apparently necessary."

    At all times in this ridiculous confrontation, even given its foregone legal conclusion, Kim Davis has possessed the capacity to control her fate. Everyone else, from her constituents to Judge Bunning and the U.S. Supreme Court, has been merely reacting to what she's been doing. Thus, jail is an entirely logical and appropriate destination for the path that she, and she alone, deliberately chose to follow.

    Hasta la vista, Christianista.

    Parent

    You were correct (none / 0) (#57)
    by CoralGables on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 12:22:02 PM EST
    Martyr.

    But saying you are willing to go to jail rather than abide by a Judge's ruling will usually have that Judge send you to jail.

    Parent

    Remainder of staff gets 30 minutes (none / 0) (#58)
    by CoralGables on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 12:24:10 PM EST
    to decide whether they prefer jail or do their job.

    Parent
    or quit their jobs, I suppose (none / 0) (#60)
    by Peter G on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 12:40:34 PM EST
    Seems like they would have a 3-way choice. Quitting wouldn't absolve them from punishment for past disobedience (which would have to be handled in a different sort of proceeding), but it would negate the use of civil, coercive (forward-looking) contempt sanctions now.

    Parent
    If staff agree to issue licenses (none / 0) (#75)
    by MKS on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 02:00:50 PM EST
    then Davis can be let go, with an order prohibiting her from entering the Clerk's office.

    Parent
    Is this something the judge said, MKS? (none / 0) (#84)
    by Peter G on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 02:40:47 PM EST
    Or something you are suggesting? The judge has to be careful, and I believe is being careful, to use the least power that is sufficient to satisfy his responsibilities to see that federal law is implemented and enforced, and that federal rights are respected. I don't think a federal judge, in that light, could bar Davis from entering the offices. Does the County Clerk not have other responsibilities than issuance of marriage licenses? He won't prevent her from performing those other functions, unless he finds it is essential to achieving the goal of getting marriage licenses issued to those who qualify and have a right to marry.

    Parent
    It Would Be a Dream Come True... (none / 0) (#86)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 02:48:45 PM EST
    ...for most, locked out of work while collecting a check.

    Parent
    My suggestion (none / 0) (#118)
    by MKS on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 08:08:16 PM EST
    An injunction preventing her from entering the office is less restrictive than being put in jail.  In jail, she cannot go into the office-- or anywhere else....

    Federal judges have a sometimes expansive view of their power.

    But, true, on appeal a plain vanilla incarceration is more likely to be upheld.

    Parent

    Yes, Clerk Davis (none / 0) (#68)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 01:34:52 PM EST
    will be a martyr. And, there will be plenty of supporters making sure she does not trip on her jumper as she mounts the pyre.  The sad conga line already has her back--Huckabee says it is the "criminalization of Christianity,"  and we can expect even more legal expertise from the likes of Ted Cruz, the Harvard Law graduate.

     Up to now, I have only noted two saner contenders, Senator Lindsey Graham and CA senate loser and fired HP CEO Fiorina. Of course, they disagree with everything, but do believe that Clerk Davis should comply.that is, do her job.    

    Parent

    If enough of her assistants agree (none / 0) (#69)
    by Peter G on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 01:38:55 PM EST
    to issue the licenses, and Davis agrees not to try to stop, penalize or interfere with them (including the pro forma inclusion of her name on the official documents), then I would think she would go free, and not have to comply personally.

    Parent
    Somewhere in the back of my mind I recall (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by Peter G on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 01:47:11 PM EST
    someone saying, "Resist not evil" and "Render unto Caesar ...." Perhaps the time has come for Ms. Davis to submit to lawful authority, as (arguably) the New Testament commands.

    Parent
    Peter, it is not even possible (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by Zorba on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 02:10:42 PM EST
    to parse what these evangelical, "born-again" types believe and don't believe.
    They pick and choose what they want to believe, and what they want to ignore.
    Although, I'm pretty sure that this is the case for almost all religions.
    So, there you have it.

    Parent
    They certainly don't resist evil (none / 0) (#78)
    by jondee on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 02:20:55 PM EST
    when they go along with the Heritage Foundation taking food out of the mouths of poor kids and when they cheer on the spending of hundreds of billions on armaments..

    If these people worked in Jesus's pr department, he'd fire all of them. And then watch them clean out their desks to make sure they didn't steal anything on their way out.

    Parent

    As I predicted, five out of six deputy clerks (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by Peter G on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 02:58:10 PM EST
    (not including Davis's son) have agreed to issue the licenses when they get back to the office tomorrow. The judge says she can go free (undoubtedly sitting in the U.S. Marshal's lock-up area still, not at the jail) if she does not interfere with the willing deputies. Within the hour, we shall see if everyone is on board with that.

    Parent
    Yes, it is reported (none / 0) (#94)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 03:28:25 PM EST
    that the plaintiffs have proposed releasing Clerk Davis out of custody if she agrees to not interfere with marriage licenses being issued by the five deputy clerks---and the Judge agreed.  However, Clerk Davis has refused the deal.  The judge is giving more time for her to think about it.

    Parent
    I hope she fights it (none / 0) (#95)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 03:40:26 PM EST
    i want to see here sorry ass behind bars.

    Parent
    You get your wish (5.00 / 3) (#97)
    by Towanda on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 03:49:51 PM EST
    The judge agreed to the proposal that five of the deputy clerks -- including a self-proclaimed "preachers' daughter" who wept about it, and who could just dry her tears and find another job -- do Davis' work for her. But when he called her back into the courtroom, she refused to agree to the proposal.  

    So, the judge put her back in the pokey.

    By the way, Bloomberg News has an interesting analysis about a question that I had:  Didn't
    Davis have to take an oath of office to uphold the laws of the land?  Yes, she did.  And she added "so help me God" -- not in the oath but often added, ever since Geo. Washington did so -- and she thinks that means that God's law is paramount.  Not so, says the essayist; that addition is not to God but, instead, only invokes God as witness to the oathtaker's vow.  

    The result, then, is that violating the oath is a sin.  Somebody ought to 'splain that to the sinner Davis.

    Parent

    I am so completely over this a$$hole (none / 0) (#98)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 03:58:34 PM EST
    i think they should put her In a kennel in the office so she has to watch.

    I'm completely fine with her getting paid for sitting in jail.   I hope she pushes it far enough that the charges become criminal.   That seems possible.

    Parent

    Also curious what happens (none / 0) (#99)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 04:00:06 PM EST
    to the two copycats.

    Parent
    Did you happen to catch one of them ... (none / 0) (#105)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 04:35:36 PM EST
    ... on Lawrence O'Donnell's MSNBC show last night? Casey Davis was shockingly clueless about his proscribed duties as an elected public official, and kept citing "the law of nature" and select provisions of the Kentucky Constitution in defense of his position, as though it all trumped the Supreme Court's ruling.

    Morons like that have no business holding public office in any capacity.

    Parent

    I did (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 04:43:11 PM EST
    who the hell wears a jogging suit to a national TV appearance?

    Also it's pretty hilarious the see these idiots whining about "lawless" behavior reveal what hypocrites they are.

    Parent

    Call me skeptical. (none / 0) (#108)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 04:42:34 PM EST
    But, I have doubts about her firmly held belief; maybe, just maybe, it started as that, but it has moved full steam ahead into her anti-gay cause.  The idea that the Clerk discharging her ministerial duties is endorsing or otherwise participating in a marriage, straight or gay, is not a stretch of the imagination, but a hallucination.

     And, betraying the sincerity of her firmly held belief even more so is her confusion between personal and personnel.  Indeed,  by Clerk Davis' resistance to  permitting her deputies to do what she finds sinful it suggests religious harassment in the workplace.

    Call me cynical, if I believe she is looking to cash in on her martyrdom. It is all a freebie for her, Liberty Counsel, the anti-gay group is paying her legal fees. And, the County is paying her salary. She refuses to resign.  She may well see not coal, but gold,  in them there KY hills.

     Why, otherwise, refuse a get out of jail free card?  I doubt it was because she heard they are serving possum stew tonight.  I'll go with it being more dramatic to greet Huckabee, Jindal and Paul in jail, with the cameras rolling, than to meet him in the office break room.

     

    Parent

    You are cynical (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 04:46:45 PM EST
    and so am I.  And so is John Amato

    Grifters gotta grift and anyone with a brain could see this coming a mile away. I'm sure she knows all about the anti-gay bakery that raised a ton of money off of their homophobia and I imagine she sees a big payday coming for herself to play the persecuted evangelical card.

    I'm laughing at all these law and order conservatives who now are sticking up for Davis, who is breaking the law and should be put into the hoosegow. She's not being asked to perform a gay wedding, but when there is dollar signs attached to the Christian persecution meme - then you get Kim Davis.

    None of us are probably cynical enough.

    Parent

    Apparently the website (none / 0) (#171)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 11:16:44 AM EST
    ...Gofundme has had enough of the negative publicity resulting from despicable people cashing in on their antisocial acts.

    GoFundMe will not allow campaigns that benefit individuals or groups facing formal charges or claims of serious violations of the law. The amended term can be found under the `What's Not Allowed' section of our terms, as well as below:

    Campaigns in defense of formal charges or claims of heinous crimes, violent, hateful, sexual or discriminatory acts

    We are also informing users that GoFundMe reserves the right to share the content from a deleted campaign with law enforcement, donors or stated beneficiaries who wish to file a police report about any misuse of fundraising proceeds.



    Parent
    Some sins (none / 0) (#102)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 04:11:01 PM EST
    are more equal than others

    Parent
    Taking vows before her god (none / 0) (#160)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:19:22 AM EST
    that she does not even understand...glad I don't live in that brain.

    Parent
    This presumes that (none / 0) (#173)
    by Zorba on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 11:30:42 AM EST
    She has a brain.    ;-)

    Parent
    I had not realized that these persecuted (none / 0) (#177)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 11:41:30 AM EST
    Conservatives were putting their stories on Go Fund It, and becoming millionaires. Me thinks I smell an uber manipulative soon be economically enriched "public servant".

    It's a weird world. It was pretty weird when I got here, and when I leave it looks like it's still going to be weird.

    Parent

    Oops..Go Fund Me :) (none / 0) (#180)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 11:49:08 AM EST


    Parent
    It's clearly what she wants (none / 0) (#96)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 03:46:16 PM EST
    her exiting words were "thank you judge"

    Give it to her.  

    Parent

    That would appear reasonable., (none / 0) (#76)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 02:08:27 PM EST
    especially as a roll-out.  Time is not on the anti-gay side, although there are plenty of hate groups to stoke the embers.   Clerk Davis, in my view, is not so much Rosa Parks as she is George Wallace.

    Gay men and women, with those allied in concern for equality and justice,  have worked within the legal, political and social systems to end the oppression. Even, in the face of Clerk Davis's obstinance, the plaintiffs, both gay and straight, asked only for compliance, using the least severe tool, fines.

     Justice Ginsburg's idea of deliberate movement toward Obergefell v Hodges has, in greatest measure, worked very well--and quickly.  There are but pockets of resistance remaining (e.g., Alabama, Texas, Kentucky), and, they will falter.  

    This having been said, I believe it is a worrying precedent to permit the Clerk, as the elected head of a government office, to not personally comply.  

    It is not just a matter of personal, firmly held belief, but also, a firmly held attitude that is likely to intrude on her office and its complying employees.

      Of course, there are all manner of inexact analogies, but to make a point, it might be like electing a sheriff who will not bear arms, but will, if forced, allow his deputies to be armed.

    Parent

    I Don't Think It's Reasonable (none / 0) (#82)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 02:35:00 PM EST
    She is putting the burden of her decision on other people.

    What happens when she is the only one there ?  No vacation, no doctor appointment for George because that would leave Kim here, alone.

    Either she can do the job or she can't, it's like the pharmacist who won't give out Plan B, someone's got to do it and by accommodating these personal beliefs they are unaccommodating everyone around them allowing people stand behind beliefs, which for many are completely irrational.

    For example, what if I find that paying incomes taxes goes against my personal belief that the federal government doesn't have the authority to make me pay taxes, even though the courts disagree.  (think Posse Comitatus).  Do I get to say to my boss, yeah, my personal beliefs will not allow me to help prepare a tax return.  Never mind that I probably should not have taken a job in tax...

    Of course not, it's ludicrous, and just because her beliefs are more mainstream, it doesn't make the argument any less ridiculous.  To me they are free to find a job that complies with their conscious, Kim could work at a church where they are free to pick and choose their marriage approval customers.

    Parent

    Clerk Davis of Rowan County, (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 02:49:12 PM EST
    may find trouble in landing a job in a Church.  They might legally turn her away on firmly held beliefs about the sanctity of marriage--what with her serial marriages and all.

    Parent
    Good One. (none / 0) (#88)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 02:50:41 PM EST


    Parent
    Via her lawyers, issued on Tuesday: (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Anne on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 03:13:09 PM EST
    "I never imagined a day like this would come, where I would be asked to violate a central teaching of Scripture and of Jesus himself regarding marriage," she said in the statement. "To issue a marriage license which conflicts with God's definition of marriage, with my name affixed to the certificate, would violate my conscience. It is not a light issue for me. It is a heaven or hell decision."

    She's entitled to her beliefs; no one's saying she isn't.  But her beliefs are no more and no less important than anyone else's, and those beliefs do not take precedence over the rights of others.  

    If her personal beliefs are in conflict with her job responsibilities, she can either take the position that it isn't "Kim Davis, Christian" who is issuing the licenses, but rather the county, which requires a human being to stand as the representative of the government, and allow the licenses to be issued - or - she can stand on her principles and resign her position.

    I'm so over this stuff it's not even funny.


    Parent

    It WOuld Be Nice... (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 03:18:09 PM EST
    ...if someone would ask her to source the Jesus traching as in another thread the teaching is attributed to Paul.

    Parent
    First License issued (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:09:09 AM EST
    Congrats to Mr Smith and Mr Yates. Been a couple for 10 years. I wonder how many of the clerk's marriages have lasted that long?

    Parent
    Not just Davis (none / 0) (#5)
    by CoralGables on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 08:27:53 AM EST
    All of her Deputy Clerks have been ordered to appear.

    IT IS ORDERED that this matter be, and is, hereby set for a hearing on Plaintiffs' Motion to Hold Defendant Kim Davis in Contempt of Court (Doc. # 67) on Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 11:00a.m. in Ashland, Kentucky. Defendant Davis and each of her deputy clerks shall be present at the hearing.

    Judge Bunning may start with Davis and go right down the line of Clerks until he finds one that will uphold the law.

    Parent
    Supposedly (none / 0) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 08:29:31 AM EST
    one has said they will.   Also two more KY county clerks joined the stoppage yesterday.

    Parent
    The Question is... (none / 0) (#13)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 09:25:02 AM EST
    ...why isn't that person issuing them ?

    I think the 2 additional refusals do not help Davis at all.
    -----------

    JB, the judge, David Bunning has a interesting pedigree:

    Bunning is the son of Jim Bunning, the Hall of Fame pitcher for the Detroit Tigers and Philadelphia Phillies who served two terms as Kentucky's junior U.S. Senator. Former Republican President George W. Bush nominated David Bunning for a lifetime position as a federal judge in 2001 when he was just 35 years old, halfway through his dad's first term in the Senate.


    Parent
    Simple (none / 0) (#15)
    by CoralGables on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 09:34:06 AM EST
    why isn't that person issuing them

    The law reads that Davis issues them unless Davis isn't available. Davis may be unavailable later today.

    Parent

    Fear of unemployment? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 09:35:38 AM EST
    Kim Davis is the boss. All the clerks in the office work for her. Anyone issuing a marriage license against her wishes is probably headed for the unemployment line (as of the moment).

    Parent
    Her Objection... (none / 0) (#25)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 10:16:04 AM EST
    ...is her signature on the form, not the office issuing them.

    Coral answered my question.

    Parent

    Wrong (none / 0) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 10:17:18 AM EST
    her name is on the form.  

    Parent
    One solution her lawyers have been pushing (none / 0) (#28)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 10:23:17 AM EST
    is removing her name.  She has said she has no problem issuing them if her name was not on the firm.

    Parent
    It has been reported (none / 0) (#29)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 10:23:45 AM EST
    that Clerk Davis has intimidated her employees. Inflicting her beliefs on all comers.

    Parent
    I saw that! (none / 0) (#37)
    by jbindc on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 11:21:54 AM EST
    Small world

    Parent
    So the majority (none / 0) (#63)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 01:16:17 PM EST
    of Republicans think that Obama is a Muslim and he's not a US citizen. I'm not sure there is a cure for what ails the GOP these days.

    And there's an unintentionally (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by jondee on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 02:36:52 PM EST
    Orwellian regular poster here who says scientists can't be trusted because they "believe" things..

    Parent
    jondee, you mean the guy that (none / 0) (#133)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:01:30 AM EST
    says consensus is not science and doesn't meet the requirement to be a Scientific Theory??

    lol

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#168)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 11:00:26 AM EST
    I mean that guy who says that overwhelming scientific consensus based on scientific research and experimentation is not science..

    That same guy who, interestingly enough, says the universe was created in exactly six days, and who thinks the New Testament dropped from Heaven to earth fully translated, edited, printed and bound 2,000 years ago..

    Yeah, that guy.  

     

    Parent

    Donald Trump signed the agreement with (none / 0) (#64)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 01:18:48 PM EST
    The RNC.

    So much press coverage I thought he got Osama bin Laden.

    I probably shouldn't even write that. In 10 years some survey of Republican voters will reveal that 34% of them will believe that Donald Trump got Osama bin Laden.

    Donald Trump also says that Tom Brady is a very honorable guy, and he has been exonerated :)

    Yes, very newsworthy. (none / 0) (#70)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 01:39:28 PM EST
    The top contender for the Republican party nomination for president, says he will be a Republican.  And, can expect all the clown car losers to endorse him when he wins.  But, as a good casino guy, no doubt, all bets are off, if his polls drop like a rock.

    Parent
    The wrong date on the original (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 02:32:39 PM EST
    He held it up and reporters spotted the error. It was dated August instead of September :)

    But they have been discussing how legally binding this pledge is. With the Trump legal team taking it on, probably not very binding.

    Trump said at the podium though that he pledged allegiance to the Republican Party and to the Conservative principles for which it stands.   Wordsmithing, by a talking ass :)

    Parent

    Wonder What THey Offered Him ? (none / 0) (#73)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 01:48:44 PM EST
    He said 'no' once and it probably helped his chances, so why say 'yes' now ?  Other than the obvious toothless virginity pledge to remain true.

    Parent
    I think Trump has (none / 0) (#79)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 02:21:47 PM EST
    concluded that he is in a different position now than he was when previously asked.  Being smitten with his prospects as front runner, he has more to gain (securing the endorsement of his losing opponents) than lose (giving ammunition to his losing opponents).  The promise is to be nice to him.  And, they will be.  No FOX ambushes.  Probably, not even a push for his tax returns, as was done for the hapless Romney.

    Parent
    Yes also (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 04:09:05 PM EST
    there was so many loopholes in that it was hilarious.  This will be to his benefit.  Some states could keep him off the ballot without it.

    Parent
    I see (none / 0) (#104)
    by FlJoe on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 04:35:15 PM EST
    it as a brilliant, or at least lucky, counter to Jeb's "He's not a Republican" attacks.

    Trump claims to be a Republican and now he has the "papers" to prove it, probably good enough for the rubes. Attack neutralized.

    Parent

    Somehow the Donald equates (none / 0) (#65)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 01:21:28 PM EST
    Our currently very low score on military preparedness with Hillary Clinton being the worst Sec of State we have ever had :) No details on how that 2+2=4.

    Eurostar (none / 0) (#107)
    by lentinel on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 04:39:53 PM EST
    had a major fkup in France.

    The train that goes from France to England through the "Chunnel" stopped in the tunnel because of --- well it doesn't matter to me why --- they stopped and let the passengers fester inside the closed cars without ventilation or air-conditioning for two to three hours --- temperatures reaching 95°! - and - I believe in the dark - both figuratively and literally --

    No light. And NO information to the passengers about what was happening.

    I understand that some of the passengers were on the brink of "losing it" - considering smashing the windows and trying to get the hell out.

    To me - this is a frightening episode.
    All the more frightening because this represents yet another example of corporate incompetence arm in arm with government stupidity and callousness regarding their customers and citizens.

    Of course there is the other issue of all of the immigrants trying to flee to safety...

    But - the ones I find myself angry at are the international corporations that created such a piece of sh-t train and the uncaring a-holes who run the d@mn thing.

    I'm mildly claustrophobic. I don't even like to be in elevators. I think I would have flipped out.

    I was on that train just a few weeks ago (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Towanda on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 05:27:39 PM EST
    and enjoyed it, surprisingly, as I am claustrophobic.  I worried that the time in the tunnel would undo me.

    But our train did not stop.  Nor were we in the dark.  Cripes, I would have lost it, too.

    <note to self:  next time, skip Chunnel train>

    Parent

    I rode (none / 0) (#120)
    by lentinel on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 08:32:22 PM EST
    it too - about six or seven months ago.

    I enjoyed the fact that I could go to England so quickly from France - and arrive right in the middle of London.

    But, frankly, I was shocked.. or disappointed by the comfort level of the train - which I thought was minimal. I did not ride in First Class...
    But the lower class - economy or whatever, had very narrow seats which declined minimally or not at all and with an "arm rest" between two seats that would barely accommodate one elbow - let alone two...

    And they kept interrupting whatever sleep you might manage to get by hawking the stuff they were selling in the dining car... Their intercom and speakers worked just fine for that --

    Anyway - I was frankly shocked that two governments - the French and the British - in a combined effort couldn't come up with something more comfortable for the plebes like me.

    But what they did to the folks in the tunnel last week is raising their indifference to our comfort to an Olympian level...

    Parent

    I love trains (none / 0) (#113)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 05:40:13 PM EST
    and take them whenever possible.  But that sounds pretty awful.

    I asked about Mr Robot in the closed thread.  Did you see the finale?  Did you not love the idea of the worlds debt being erased forever?

    Parent

    ThinkProgress (none / 0) (#116)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 07:24:18 PM EST
    Mr. Robot, USA's unlikely breakout hit of the summer, aired its finale Wednesday night, a week after it was originally scheduled to air. The episode was postponed after the shooting of two journalists on live TV in Roanoke, Virginia, due to "a graphic scene similar in nature" to the on-camera killings.
    That's been the headline on Mr. Robot for a week now, and if all you want to know is what exactly went down in the scene that prompted the delay, you can. But focus on those few minutes at the expense of the rest of this unnerving, fantastic debut season at your peril. The reason this show skyrocketed to critical smash status over just ten weeks isn't because of the major news it made. The excellence of Mr. Robot isn't about big; it's about small. This is a show with astonishing attention to detail.
    --
    But even though the televised suicide was gruesome and, in light of last week's shooting, especially disturbing, it was not the most graphic part of the show. The most horrifying stuff isn't what we can see. It almost doesn't matter who is knocking on Elliot's door at the end of the episode.
    The real violence in Mr. Robot isn't what happens to other people, outside, on-screen. The real violence is internal, personal. It's hallucinations clashing with reality; competing moralities waging war within.
    It's not what's out there. It's all in your head.

    LINK

    Parent

    I saw (none / 0) (#117)
    by lentinel on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 07:53:05 PM EST
    the finale.

    What I didn't care for was that the premise of the world's debt being erased was not presented with a definite point of view.

    The "people" in what looked like Times Square, were portrayed as slightly weird hippies.

    It looked like a bogus revolution.
    It looked slightly like a fascist revolution.

    All I can say is that I really like the cast.
    But I feel that the writers don't know which way to go. Portray the tyranny of mega-corporations, or to portray the psyches of some tortured souls.
    Portray a revolution as a great thing - a liberating thing - or just a turnover to a new set of tyrants thanks to some gifted but naive hackers.

    I do like the cast.


    Parent

    I think what you see as an absence (none / 0) (#119)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 08:11:30 PM EST
    of a point of view (which I don't really agree with) is intentional.  If by people in Times Square you mean the scene with the masks, that was a very clear nod to Guy Falks and the great movie "V for Vendetta".

    I think they can, and do, portray the tyranny of mega corporations and the psyches of some tortured soles.  IMO either one without the other would make for a boring story.

    As far as turning it over to a new set of tyrants, it's the end of season one.  

    Do you know B.D. Wong?  The guy who player the character Whiterose?  He only appeared twice in the season.  Once in semi drag (I think he got a Tony for M Butterfly) a couple of weeks ago as the person behind all the mahem and again in the after credits scene with the creepy official of Evil Corp.  

    In other words.   We actually have no freakin clue who is screwing who.

    I think it's terrific.  I can't wait till next season.  I also love the cast.  Rami is especially perfect.

    Parent

    Rami Malek (none / 0) (#128)
    by lentinel on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 07:47:22 AM EST
    is indeed excellent.

    I just preferred his character when he was portrayed as someone intuitively brilliant - cracking impossible codes - hacking impenetrable systems - out-analyzing his analyst.

    For these last episodes he is portrayed as wandering...doesn't know who he is, what he has done or might do.. confused on the border of being absolutely clueless.

    To me, that portrayal is less interesting.

    Even his voice-over seems less insightful.

    I am more absorbed at this point with Portia Doubleday's character on the screen - although even that has been slightly muted imo.

    But I do look forward to each episode and will be tuning in next year to see what they are up to.

    I must say it is insane that these shows have 10 episodes and call it a "season". Please!
    They'll be lucky if anybody remembers anything when they deign to return in ... next May?

    Parent

    I loved it too (none / 0) (#132)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 08:45:36 AM EST
    That Times Square scene with Christian Slater's rant is wonderful. Chaos - is it a revolution - maybe, no one really knows, not even the people involved.  Looks like the Evil Corp guy was involved the whole time...and where IS Tyrell?

    I think I said before that I like the combination of the personal story of Elliot's psyche with what is going on in the world. I am going to watch all the episodes again.

    I am fine with a 10 episode season. Anything much longer than that seems wasteful and boring to me anymore.

    Parent

    I agree about the 10-12 (none / 0) (#137)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:17:58 AM EST
    episode seasons.   Time for a story arc without needing filler.

    Like a long movie.

    Parent

    Last time I rode a train was 16 years ago, ... (none / 0) (#122)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 09:52:22 PM EST
    ... when we took Amtrak's Coast Starlight from Oakland to L.A. It was an otherwise beautiful daytime ride down the California coast, but it was still the biggest mistake I made on that particular mainland trip, because I had a terribly bored 8-year-old and 5-year-old with me. Mom was waiting for us at Grandma's in Pasadena, and I had initially thought it would be fun because the girls had never been on a train before. But they pretty quickly disabused me of that naïve notion. The journey took ten hours, and they were generally disagreeable to awful for about eight of them. In obvious retrospect, we should've flown instead.

    Parent
    I Hope You Are Joking... (none / 0) (#136)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:15:28 AM EST
    ...but even then it's not funny.

    They stopped because immigrants were on the tracks, the only options were to stop or run over human beings.

    The Eurostar train was stopped following reports of people climbing on trains about 1.2 miles (2km) from the Channel Tunnel.

    Two trains also had to turn back on Tuesday night - one to London and one to Paris - as the track was blocked between 21:45 and 02:23 local time.

    Eurotunnel said most of the migrant intrusions were now happening outside the Channel Tunnel perimeter.

    A spokeswoman said the company had reached an agreement with French national railway operator SNCF to help with the erection of some eight miles (13km) of high security fencing to begin "in the days ahead".

    Last month, Home Secretary Theresa May warned the ongoing migrant crisis could shift from Calais to other ports, saying she was "well aware of the possibility of displacement".

    LINK

    While I don't know much about this particular train, I do not it's bad when a train stops on the tracks, and it's almost unheard of for one to go in reverse unscheduled.  I would think ensuring another train didn't enter the tunnel from another country was their primary focus.

    Parent

    I have a new screen saver (none / 0) (#111)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 05:22:05 PM EST
    say "Jeeeeeeeasus"

    I can hear (none / 0) (#114)
    by FlJoe on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 05:53:44 PM EST
    the howls already.
    A former State Department staffer who worked on Hillary Clinton's email server is planning to invoke his Fifth Amendment right to avoid testifying before Congress about it, according to a memo obtained by ThinkProgress.
    I already know how the Republicans and the media will play it, but what does it mean legally?

    I find this interesting (my emp.)

    "It is understandable that attorneys for Mr. Pagliano have advised him to assert his constitutional right not to testify given the onslaught of reckless accusations of criminal conduct that continue to be made by many Republicans.
    Methinks the mysterious Mr. P is going soon get his 15 minutes of fame, and not in a good way.
    Well (none / 0) (#115)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 06:02:41 PM EST
    Trey Gowdy can give him immunity but what do you bet he doesn't because he really isn't interested in this and knows there's nothing.

    I really can't blame the guy though.

    This whole thing kind of backs up Hillary's statement that it is partisan blowing up that talking point from the GOP.

    Parent

    Ga, are you kidding me???? (none / 0) (#135)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:11:34 AM EST
    A Hillary staffer, one who setup/in charge of Hillary's private server takes the 5th and you think that helps??

    Really??

    Parent

    You can't invoke the 5th Amendment (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by Anne on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:23:36 AM EST
    because you don't want to incriminate someone else - you invoke it because you have a constitutional right not to incriminate yourself.

    For some reason - golly, I wonder what that could be? - you and others want to imply, and have others conclude, that Pagliano is invoking the 5th amendment in order to protect Clinton, but that's not how it works.

    And I guess you've missed the part where Clinton has been urging anyone and everyone - including Pagliano - involved in this sh!tshow to answer questions, testify, whatever.

    But, please, whatever you do, don't let the facts get in the way of the story you want to create.

    Parent

    You should (none / 0) (#138)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:19:14 AM EST
    read the letter the lawyer sent as to why he is taking the 5th. Cue the ghost of McCarthy. However like I said Gowdy can give the guy immunity can't he? What do you want to bet Gowdy doesn't because he already knows there is no there there.

    Parent
    You really should try to pace yourself jimmy (none / 0) (#139)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:30:34 AM EST
    you don't want to blow a gasket before Hillary's perp walk.

    In other news

    Andrea Mitchell is interviewing Hillary on her show today.  I plan to try hard to stomach Mitchell long enough to watch it.

    I expect all the burning beltway questions will be posed.

    Parent

    Haha (none / 0) (#147)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:47:30 AM EST
    The GOP is going to blow a gasket before November 2016 it seems. I guess when there's no silver bullet that comes out they're going to have a mental breakdown.

    Parent
    What time (none / 0) (#148)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:48:39 AM EST
    is that today? Do you know?

    Parent
    12 eastern (none / 0) (#150)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:57:43 AM EST


    Parent
    MSNBC? (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:59:37 AM EST
    Thanks.

    Parent
    You Mean He Used One of His... (none / 0) (#141)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:34:07 AM EST
    ...Constitutional rights, the horror.  And obviously someone declining to be a witness against himself surely means HRC has something to hide.

    WASHINGTON -- President Reagan yesterday defended the right of his former aides to invoke the Fifth Amendment against self-incrimination in the Iran arms-contra aid case, despite his earlier assertions that they should cooperate with congressional investigators.
    LINK

    Bill O'Reilly: "I Would" Take The Fifth And "Anybody In Their Right Mind" Would Take It. While discussing Goodling, Fox News host Bill O'Reilly repeatedly said he would advise taking the Fifth before Congress. From a March 2007 program:
    LINK

    "LIMBAUGH: It's a perjury trap. A lot of this stuff is just being set up for perjury traps. That's why they want Rove and Harriet Miers under oath on this whole issue. So, the lawyer says that the obvious lack of impartiality of the Senate and conclusions already reached make anybody, especially Monica Goodling's testimony, perilous here. He's wise to have her plead the Fifth. Now, what do you think about this, though, Matt? The Fifth Amendment is what it is. It's certainly a constitutional right. But most people think, "A-ha! A-ha! Fifth Amendment! A-ha, a-ha! Guilty! You're afraid to go up and show it. You're afraid to admit it." You know that's how people react to people who take the fifth."  
    LINK

    Parent
    et al (none / 0) (#149)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:55:00 AM EST
    So he has a constitutional right to not incriminate himself....or get in dutch with Hillary by telling what he knows....

    Okie Dokie

    Parent

    Scott, as you well know, (none / 0) (#172)
    by Zorba on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 11:29:26 AM EST
    IOKIYAR.   ;-)

    Parent
    Of course (none / 0) (#170)
    by FlJoe on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 11:14:01 AM EST
    this will be seized upon by the guilty until proven innocent crowd, as "proof" of wrong doing.

    It's obvious that Gowdy is on a fishing expedition here, casting his net far and wide hoping for something, anything to pin on Hillary. This is the select committee on Benghazi
     not Hillary's server configuration. I think he is going way beyond his brief here.

    You are correct that this probably hurts Hillary in the short term, but I am starting to smell a stalking horse scenario here, remember the main event is in October when Hillary testifies. This small fish staffer is just a distraction.

    Parent

    Does it matter? (none / 0) (#191)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 01:23:40 PM EST
    FIJoe: "It's obvious that Gowdy is on a fishing expedition here, casting his net far and wide hoping for something, anything to pin on Hillary. This is the select committee on Benghazi[,] not Hillary's server configuration. I think he is going way beyond his brief here."

    The original Whitewater investigation of 20-plus years ago, ostensibly about an Arkansas land deal, soon careened off the guardrails into scurrilous accusations of murder and specious allegations about law firm billing records, before finally culminating with the special counsel Kenneth Starr's not-so-special (p0rno)graphic report to Congress about a probing cigar and mutual masturbation.

    That's 'cause H8ers gotta H8 and H8ers gonna do what H8ers gonna do, by any and all means necessary -- knowhutahmean, jellybean?

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Keeping up with Kim Davis memes (none / 0) (#121)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 03, 2015 at 09:12:27 PM EST
    is now officially a full time job.

    my favorite so far

    I work for a defense company. (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 08:00:27 AM EST
    I sent my boss (who is works Louisville) an email this morning stating that my conscience prevents me from working on technical manuals for weapons of war, but I'm still going to come to work everyday and expect to collect my paycheck.

    Parent
    ha! let me know how that goes. (none / 0) (#140)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:31:43 AM EST


    Parent
    I liked Dan Savages thought experiment (none / 0) (#142)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:36:03 AM EST
    imagine a Quaker in the same county decides he will no longer sell gun permits.

    Parent
    A Couple More (none / 0) (#169)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 11:03:39 AM EST
    A vegan/vegetarian/Buddhist/Hindi deciding not to sell hunting and fishing licenses ?

    That being said, consciousness objectors can apply for a honorable discharge from the military and receive full benefits.  Different in that you are basically allowed to resign without negative consequences.  They do not allow them to remain and skip the parts of the job they object to.

    This is funny and sad.

    A local judge contends the U.S. Supreme Court decision on same-sex marriage has derailed Tennessee's ability to determine what constitutes divorce -- leaving one Signal Mountain couple married against their will.  LINK

    This is tragic, not related.  They went to jail for manslaughter.

    An Oregon couple who let their 16-year-old die over the course of a week due to a ruptured appendix -- because their religion doesn't believe in modern medicine. LINK

    This to me is why religious beliefs are so dangerous, they were clearly proven wrong, but instead of re-evaluated their beliefs, they will just add some non-nonsensical adaptation, like it was god's will rather than admit their own failings as parents.

    I was reading something yesterday from a christian who basically said religion/god/the bible are basically advise/pathways on how you should live, not how you think others should.  Davis is not marrying a woman, so her conscious should be clear and by using her position of authority to force others to comply to her beliefs she was behaving more like the enemies of jesus, than jesus.

    Parent

    It was a joke. (none / 0) (#144)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:43:41 AM EST
    and my boss knows that. I poke fun at him for being a republican.

    Parent
    It is that simple Chuck... (none / 0) (#145)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:46:45 AM EST
    your conscience prevents you from doing "x", god bless ya...but don't expect to keep your god damn job when the job description clearly states "x" is required.  Respect your conscience and do the honorable thing and resign, or ignore your conscience and get a paycheck...end of discussion.

    Everybody wants to be accommodated, nobody wants to accommodate...is this a result of two generations of precious snowflakes or something?  Seriously wtf?

    Parent

    That was my point. (none / 0) (#152)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:01:10 AM EST
    If your job violates tenets of your conscience or your belief system, the correct thing is to resign. Not refuse to perform your duties and collect a check. People have been resigning their posts for as long as I remember when their jobs or overlords have pushed the limits on what is right. But that's just it, you resign. That's your statement of noncompliance and disagreement. You don't stay in your job and keep collecting a paycheck and refuse to do the job. As I replied to Ruffian, it was a joke. My boss and I trade barbs constantly on the state of things.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#154)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:07:43 AM EST
    you have to at least respect the ones in TN that just went ahead and quit instead of issuing the marriage licenses. They quit. It made news and everybody moved on. This lady has turned the whole thing into a freaking circus.

    Parent
    Then there is this ? (none / 0) (#157)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:16:55 AM EST
    A local judge contends the U.S. Supreme Court decision on same-sex marriage has derailed Tennessee's ability to determine what constitutes divorce -- leaving one Signal Mountain couple married against their will.

    Hamilton County Chancellor Jeffrey Atherton denied the divorce petition last week after hearing from seven witnesses and going through 77 exhibits. Among several reasons he cited in rejecting the couple's divorce, one was the Supreme Court's June ruling.

    Atherton said the Supreme Court must clarify "when a marriage is no longer a marriage." Otherwise, he contended, state courts are impaired from addressing marriage and divorce litigation altogether.

    "The conclusion reached by this Court is that Tennesseans have been deemed by the U.S. Supreme Court to be incompetent to define and address such keystone/central institutions such as marriage, and, thereby, at minimum, contested divorces," Atherton wrote.



    Parent
    So ironically (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:19:07 AM EST
    gay marriage is helping straight married couples stay together.

    Against their will, yes. But they are staying married.

    Glass half full

    Parent

    Indeed... (none / 0) (#158)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:18:08 AM EST
    I may not agree with their moral position, but I have the upmost respect for those that walk the walk when they talk the talk.  

    Davis is a spoiled child who wanted to have her cake and eat it too.  

    Parent

    We will see if (none / 0) (#161)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:20:52 AM EST
    a "timeout" helps

    Parent
    The college football season opened today: (none / 0) (#123)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 01:06:24 AM EST
    Some scores:
    • No. 2 TCU 23, Minnesota 17 -- The Horned Frogs' much-celebrated offense really sputtered, but their defense hung tough on the road.

    • No. 16 Georgia Tech 69, Alcorn State 6 -- Ouch!

    • No. 22 Arizona 42, Texas-San Antonio 32 -- The Wildcats' offense looks great. Their defense, not so much.

    • Utah 24, Michigan 17 -- The Wolverines fall short at the Utes in new Coach Jim Harbaugh's debut.

    • Oklahoma State 24, Central Michigan 13 -- The Cowboys survive their home opener in a game where they weren't expected to be challenged.

    • South Carolina 17, North Carolina 13 -- The Gamecocks' Skai Moore saves the day with a pick in the end zone in the final minutes.

    • Florida Int'l 15, UCF 14 -- FIU blocked the Golden Knights' 47-yard field goal attempt in the closing seconds to preserve the upset.

    • Western Kentucky 14, Vanderbilt 12 -- Hilltoppers stuffed the Commodores' 2-pt. conversion with 33 seconds left to earn the win.

    • Duke 37, Tulane 7 -- People seem to forget that the Blue Devils have a pretty decent football team, too.

    • Fresno State 34, Abilene Christian 13 -- Can the Bulldogs finally rebound from a lackluster last few years?

    • Hawaii 8, Colorado 0 (10:05, 2nd) -- Go, 'Bows!

    Tomorrow night, Washington Coach Chris Peterson returns with my Huskies to his old haunts at No. 23 Boise State on national TV (ESPN). Unfortunately, he and the Dawgs will likely find a well-coached Broncos team that's a whole lot better than the one he left behind in 2013.

    Aloha.

    FINAL: Hawaii 28, Colorado 20. (none / 0) (#124)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 05:21:35 AM EST
    The Rainbow Warriors pull off what most people would consider an upset, but after watching the game on TV, I'm left wondering why oddsmakers installed the Buffaloes as an 8-pt. favorite on the road. They sure loved to talk big all during this week, but really couldn't back it up on the field.

    Anyway, it was a great win for the 'Bows, whose defense came up big themselves in forcing three turnovers, all of which led to scores. They needed to start the season on a positive note, especially since their next three games are all on the road at -- (deep breath here) -- No. 1 Ohio State, No. 20 Wisconsin and No. 23 Boise State.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Oddsmakers don't make the "favoriite" (none / 0) (#127)
    by CoralGables on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 07:34:44 AM EST
    Bettors and their money decide who is the favorite.

    Parent
    Oddsmakers... (none / 0) (#143)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:38:57 AM EST
    do set the line, then adjust it as the wagers come in.

    Parent
    But not on who they believe will win (none / 0) (#146)
    by CoralGables on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 09:47:25 AM EST
    The line is set based on how they believe people will wager. They don't care a lick who might win.

    Parent
    But of course... (none / 0) (#156)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:15:27 AM EST
    though people wager based on who they think is gonna win, with homers and mushes as the exceptions.  

    Parent
    And those Mets homers are the worst (none / 0) (#162)
    by CoralGables on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:23:23 AM EST
    j/k f#ck the yankees. Go Mutts err Mets.

    Parent
    There's a reason... (none / 0) (#165)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:38:45 AM EST
    I don't bet on baseball/football/basketball...my heart is too strong for the mind to overcome;)

    Parent
    kdog (none / 0) (#153)
    by CoralGables on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:04:00 AM EST
    At gametime Colorado was -7. That's decided by the bettors. If the opening line had made Hawaii the favorite, those that set the line would be on the unemployment line today or getting kneecapped as they walked out their front door in Vegas.

    Parent
    Huh? I don't understand. (none / 0) (#184)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 12:18:23 PM EST
    Not being a betting guy at all, I'm obviously ignorant as to how this actually works. If Hawaii had been first pegged as the favorite, which in obvious retrospect they probably should've been, how would those who set the initial line be in trouble?

    Parent
    Donald (none / 0) (#186)
    by CoralGables on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 12:30:04 PM EST
    The job of the linemaker is to get an equal amount of money bet on each team. If the job is done well, the line won't move much at all from opening until gametime.

    If more money comes in on one team than the other, the line will move in an attempt to again equal out the money coming in on both sides.

    They don't care whether Hawaii wins or Colorado wins. All they care about is for an equal amount of money to be bet on each team. In this case the final number of Colorado as a 7 point favorite accomplished that task and the sportsbook happily pockets their vig no matter who wins the game.

    Parent

    Thanks, CG. (none / 0) (#192)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 01:26:53 PM EST
    That makes perfect sense to me now.

    Parent
    The bookies (none / 0) (#187)
    by FlJoe on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 12:34:36 PM EST
    set the line to make the betting even. They raise or lower the betting line to keep the betting 50-50, they make their money from the 10% off the top and would lose money if they had to pay off much more then half of the bets.

    Parent
    And if it's almost kick-off (none / 0) (#188)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 12:43:45 PM EST
    and their book isn't close to a 50/50 split, the bookie will place their own wager with another book on the team most of their bettors action is on, so the butcher doesn't become the lamb;)

    Parent
    Thus (none / 0) (#189)
    by FlJoe on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 12:45:44 PM EST
    the term hedging your bets.

    Parent
    Yes... (none / 0) (#190)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 12:55:11 PM EST
    like Wall Street does with donations to both Republican and Democratic candidate's campaigns...ya can't lose! :)

    Well unless your a bookie named Donald Trump or the now defunct NYC OTB.

    Parent

    Also... (none / 0) (#200)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 01:52:54 PM EST
    ...and this might help understanding the line.  

    Locally, the line is almost always worse than the national line because more people are putting money on the home team, and the line has to reflect that disparity.  

    Betting against the home team, locally, almost gives you better odds(points) than placing the same bet nationally.  For example, and I can't remember, but I would guess that Seattle was given 3 points for the Super Bowl on the national lines.  But if you were to actually bet in Seattle, a point or maybe none, which means you have a several point advantage betting against Seattle in Seattle.  In New England, just the opposite, Seattle was probably given 5 points.

    The points are only the metric used to ensure each team is bet on equally, and before the days of online betting, lines varied considerably.

    At the end of the day, the bookie makes zero dollars on the actual bets, but gets an additional 10% from the losers.  So if you bet $100 and lose, you owe $110.  If you win, you get $100.

    Parent

    Morning Donald (none / 0) (#125)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 07:00:49 AM EST
    we are a nation of laws.  KY clerk has to follow the laws.

    We have to accept the Iran deal.

    Suggested letting Syrian refugees into the U.S.

    Discussed changes to the tax laws the Elizabeth Warren might like, like taxing hedge funders and rich people.

    Curiouser and curiouser.

    I think the show yesterday was as much as anything else to cut Jebs "he's not a republican" thing off at the pass.

    The only one bashing him on mourning Joe is the republican consultant.  

    It's like he wakes up in the morning asking himself what can I do to the Republican Party today?

    He is the Ayn Randian dream - pure self-interest (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 11:39:03 AM EST
    I don't think any other considerations go into it

    Parent
    Spouse said that Conservatives at work (none / 0) (#178)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 11:45:34 AM EST
    Are saying Trump is a Democratic plant. He's a secret Democrat who is deliberately trying to destroy the Republican Party's chances for the Presidency :)

    Parent
    Haha (none / 0) (#183)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 12:01:38 PM EST
    a tea partier I know said that the Democrats put up Todd Akin against Claire. There is a grain of truth to it since I believe Claire did somehow mess in their primary.

    However I said no matter what she did the GOP base had to vote for the guy. So I said what does that say about the Republican base? No answer from her.

    I'm actually glad he's in the race. There's not going to be a repeat of someone like George W. Bush pretending to be a moderate and then once in office instituting radical policies.

    Parent

    These (none / 0) (#126)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 07:26:00 AM EST
    Republican consultants are going to need to order Maalox by the case. LOL. But these are the same Republican consultants who pretty much put forth ideas that have been losers for the last 25 years.

    Parent
    Yes, it's very strange (none / 0) (#176)
    by Zorba on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 11:39:19 AM EST
    Makes you wonder if The Donald is a mole, giving just enough red meat to get the Repiblicans on board with his candidacy (such as his insistence on deporting 11 million undocumented aliens and building a wall between the U.S. and Mexico), while pushing an otherwise non-Republican agenda.
    Hey, he's supposed to be buddies with the Clintons.  Maybe Donald and Bill cooked up this entire campaign.........
    ;-)


    Parent
    Better, They are Related (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 11:57:02 AM EST
    The Donald and Hillary are 19th cousins, according to genealogy experts.

    One of their children was Joan Beaufort, whose descendants include Mrs. Clinton. Her brother John Beaufort is an ancestor of Mr. Trump. Their descendants included several kings of England and centuries of Scottish kings.

    "Their 19th great grandfather is King Edward III [John's father] so there is precedent for ruling a country, it's in their genes," A.J. Jacobs, who teamed up with MyHeritage.com and studied the research done by Geni, told Extra TV.

    LINK

    Also.

    Former Vice President Dick Cheney's wife, Lynne, revealed in 2007 that while researching her ancestry for her memoir, she discovered her husband and then-Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) were actually eighth cousins.
    LINK

    Parent
    Lynn Cheney's husband ... (none / 0) (#198)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 01:51:27 PM EST
    ... is likely descended from the "Dueling Banjoes" side of the family.

    Parent
    Strange it is (none / 0) (#194)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 01:33:27 PM EST
    strange it is.

    I posted this once before

    Parent

    Yep (none / 0) (#201)
    by Zorba on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 01:53:32 PM EST
    Very cute, Howdy.  And, indeed, very strange.
    There is a supposedly ancient curse that says "May you live in interesting times."  (Although it might not actually be that old.)
    Well, we're living in interesting times, all right.


    Parent
    Pat Robertson and the stock market plunge. (none / 0) (#164)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:36:26 AM EST
    It's the gays fault.

    This is guy just gets nuttier and nuttier.

    oops link entered wrong. (none / 0) (#166)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 10:39:41 AM EST
    It's the gays fault.

    Parent
    These guys need to get their story straight (none / 0) (#179)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 11:46:31 AM EST
    I thought all these "signs and wonders"; stock market crashes. tornados, flat tires and cold sores were signs that God's redemption plan was unfolding on schedule..

    Parent
    Watched (none / 0) (#174)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 11:37:49 AM EST
    the Andrea Mitchell interview with Hillary. She spent too much time on the email issue because apparently Andrea can't understand it. Anyway, after she moved on after that it was a pretty good interview. Hillary looked relaxed and not worried one bit about all this stuff.

    Agreed. . L'affaire email, (5.00 / 2) (#196)
    by KeysDan on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 01:49:38 PM EST
    is a tempest in a teapot  There really will be no explanation adequate to the task, because the task is a political one that will accept no explanations.   The Benghazi committee will never conclude its work, all will be in secret, other than misleading leaks--that will generate the next batch of questions to dominate the discussions.  Mrs Clinton needs to move on, enough defense, more offense.

    Part of the offense should be a new boldness.  Biden piqued interest by inviting Senator Warren to the VP residence for lunch.  Just the idea of a Biden/Warren ticket, perhaps with a pledge of Biden to serve one term, and clear the way for Warren.  An interview with Boston Globe reporter, Joshua Miller, showed a funny, charming and substantive Warren, who made news as much by the unrecognizable salad served as anything else.  

    It makes even more sense to me now (and probably Capt Howdy), that Mrs Clinton seriously, and publicly,  entertain a Clinton/Warren ticket.  While many good options exist, such as Secretary Castro, Senator Warren would add so much.  Hispanic voters would surely take pride in Castro in the vice president slot, a Trump candidacy may lessen disappointment.    

    Parent

    I guess (none / 0) (#203)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 02:10:32 PM EST
    we shall see about Warren. Perhaps that looks like what is needed now but it might change 6 months down the road. I do agree though that Trump has made the GOP completely toxic to minorities and there may be no need for a Hispanic on the ticket.

    Hillary said there's been a lot of confusion about the emails and Andrea seemed to prove her right. LOL.

    Parent

    I tried (none / 0) (#193)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 01:30:29 PM EST
    i really can not stand Andrea Mitchell.  She is the worst of the worst of the worst of DC bottom feeders.  I couldn't take it.

    I knew if anything that has not been answered 50,000 times happened it would be played over and over and over.

    And over.


    Parent

    I understand (none / 0) (#199)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 01:51:47 PM EST
    I was about to cut it off after the first few minutes.

    Parent
    In a way it was smart to pick Mitchell (none / 0) (#202)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 02:00:11 PM EST
    she was guaranteed to do exactly what she did.  Are you sorry?  No really, are you sorry. Why do people hate you?  Why are you losing?  Blah blah blah

    Parent
    Either Mrs. Greenspan really can't ... (none / 0) (#195)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 01:47:38 PM EST
    ... understand it, or she deliberately doesn't want to understand it, and thus undercut and ruin a rollicking good right-wing storyline about how it's all over for Hillary, save of course for the pending indictments.

    I just haven't figured out which Mrs. Greenspan showed up today -- the know-it-all Beltway insider with the grossly inflated opinion of herself, or the chatty D.C. matron who revels in local gossip.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    MSNBC=liberal media (none / 0) (#197)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 01:50:55 PM EST
    MSNBC's Morning Joe Edits Out David Ignatius' Debunking Of Clinton Email "Scandal"
    Ignatius: "I Couldn't Find A Case Where This Kind Of Activity Had Been Prosecuted... Legally There Is No Difference Between [Clinton] Using Her Private Server And If She'd Used State.gov"



    Parent

    Sorry jondee, but you have proved that (none / 0) (#204)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 03:52:56 PM EST
    guy correct

    I mean that guy who says that overwhelming scientific consensus based on scientific research and experimentation is not science.

    You see, there is no experimentation and after all the research none of the predictions work.

    A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.[1][2][3] As with most (if not all) forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and aim for predictive power and explanatory capability.[4][5]

    As for your uninformed snark...

    That same guy who, interestingly enough, says the universe was created in exactly six days, and who thinks the New Testament dropped from Heaven to earth fully translated, edited, printed and bound 2,000 years ago..

    Yeah, that guy.  

    It is kinda silly to try abd tie religious beliefs into the MMGW debate. Of course if you want to claim that MMGW is true even though it doesn't meet the req's of a ST, then you are doing it on faith. Welcome to the Church of What's Happening Now. Geraldine will be so proud...lol

    Since we all have agreed (none / 0) (#205)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 04, 2015 at 05:40:52 PM EST
    that the Ky county clerk should have issued the licenses or resigned....

    Can we also agree that this person has no case??

    A Muslim flight attendant, Charee Stanley, claims that she was suspended from her job with ExpressJet Airlines because she refused to serve alcohol. She has filed a complaint with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) - and now the Hamas-tied Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has jumped onto the case.

    Link

    Your source is Pamela Geller, Jim. (none / 0) (#206)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Sep 05, 2015 at 06:07:35 AM EST
    That woman is such a hatemongering whackjob, I won't give her the time of day. Given your own hostility toward Muslims, it's not surprising that you'd embrace her bigotry. Have a good day.

    What does the man know (none / 0) (#207)
    by jondee on Sat Sep 05, 2015 at 11:00:25 AM EST
    that Nobel prize winners, the National and International Academy of Sciences, and National Geographic Society don't know?

    They've all had it all wrong all this time, and the (objective, disinterested) fossil fuel lobby has it right..

    So what if my source is the Devil??? (none / 0) (#208)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Sep 05, 2015 at 11:02:22 AM EST
    Some questions.

    If you hate your doctor would you reject his learned comment that you have a disease that needs treating??

    If you had to have surgery do you want the best or do you want someone you agree with politically?

    And the most important.

    Is her information correct?? Since it is, why do you care about her political views?? Is it because  it shows that CAIR, who claims to reject Sharia Law in the US, supports a Muslim flight attendant who is demanding she be allowed to follow Sharia Law thus de facto implementing it in the US?

    Now please tell me, your humble servant who seeks a sample of your great wisdom....

    What is the difference between her and the KY court clerk??

    Both are supposedly acting on their religious faith.

    CAIR is about as much of a relevant force (none / 0) (#209)
    by jondee on Sat Sep 05, 2015 at 11:15:43 AM EST
    in American politics as your former talk radio bogie men the New Black Panthers are..

    And your gal pal Pamela is still a shameless, narcissistic, hate-mongering gold digger who would spontaneously combust if she ever accidentally had an original thought.

    Who are going to link to next, David Duke?

    Did the Clintons Pay Somebody Off the Books? (none / 0) (#210)
    by RickyJim on Sat Sep 05, 2015 at 11:39:00 AM EST
    Why else would he take the fifth?  Link

    Thursday. Open thread | 211 comments (211 topical)