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    BTD (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 12:12:04 PM EST
    enjoying your twitter comments. I've been on there a while but never used it until recently.

    Diplomacy! (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by ruffian on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 01:09:07 PM EST
    NYTimes: Iran Says It Has Released Four Americans in a Prisoner Swap

    Though I'm sure the GOP would have preferred we kill a bunch of people to get ours back rather than a swap. Obama is so weak.

    Yes, bombing is always (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 01:41:13 PM EST
    a good option.   Or, follow the great negotiating skills of Saint Reagan: In 1985, despite the embargo on selling arms to Iran, the Reagan administration negotiated to release seven American hostages, it took 1,500 missiles and we got three hostages released, only to be replaced by three new hostages. A hostage bazaar, said one critic. But, then there was the overcharge in the sale of missiles to the Ayatollah to be used for illegal funding of Contras. So we do need to factor that in.

    The  Republican presidential candidates, of course, did not like the deal because it made us look weak and then, there is that Iran Nuclear deal to knock. Never to miss an opportunity, even if it is the release of Americans.  Cruz did think it was good that "Pastor Abedini" was released; Trump said it was a bad deal, bad (using his repeat cadence). Rand Paul, seemed to have had some recent reality therapy: he said "it is a sign of hope."

    Parent

    Great minds (none / 0) (#6)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 01:45:59 PM EST
    and all. ;o)

    Parent
    Yes, but the (none / 0) (#8)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 02:20:30 PM EST
    weakness of our comments is that it deals in facts.

    Parent
    How true (none / 0) (#9)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 02:27:42 PM EST
    We need to start creating great story boards filled with more drama, distortions, hysteria, insults and add in a little victimhood to give them some flavor. ;o)

    Parent
    Rand (none / 0) (#7)
    by FlJoe on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 02:15:55 PM EST
    Paul has always been relatively clear eyed on FP.

    Parent
    The solution is to declare war (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 03:26:02 PM EST
    and do what it takes to win.

    OTOH we can just shut up and take it.

    Parent

    Just take what? Released hostages? (5.00 / 4) (#21)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 04:12:11 PM EST
    Do you even think before posting?  

    War is always unpredictable.  Did you learn nothing from Little Boots' Iraq adventure?

    Parent

    That's a rhetorical question, right? (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 04:36:50 PM EST
    ;-D

    Parent
    War is the extension of diplomacy and (none / 0) (#128)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 12:55:41 PM EST
    the enforcement of the nation's best interests.

    And it is reported that 3 more Americans are missing.

    So, is it in our best interests to fight now when we have advantage in weapons.

    Or should we just shut up and take what ever the islamist terrorists, and the nation states that support them, want to pass out?

    While you are deciding remember that WWII could have been avoided by France and England moving against Hitler early on.

    Instead their politicians stuck their fingers in the air and "led from behind" by taking no actions,

    Parent

    The enforcement of the nations best interests.. (none / 0) (#133)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:46:24 PM EST
    Always?

    In every historic instance?

    Interesting.

    Along with that 20/20 hindsight, you should keep in mind that the perception was still extant in some high places at that time that Germany was a "bulwark" against the SU and the spread of communism.

    Parent

    Not going to happen.. (none / 0) (#14)
    by jondee on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 03:40:20 PM EST
    and wouldn't even happen - except in your wildest autoerotic fanatasies - if the most militant hawk on the American Right were president.

    You're thinking in checkers terms in the middle of an intricate chess match.

    Parent

    Autoerotic fantasies are wasted (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 03:46:08 PM EST
    on 77+ year old men.

    And there is no chess game if you just declare war and fight it with all resources.

    OTOH if you try to play 3 D chess with people who will always lie and break treaties you ain't gonna win.

    Parent

    Channeling one's inner Curtis Lemay (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by jondee on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 03:51:40 PM EST
    is the best some can do when the mind starts making a promises that the body can't fill..

    That, or starting a gun collection.

    I repeat, not gonna happen. As you well know.

    Parent

    Speak for youeself (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:53:14 PM EST
    The wise man doesn't dwell on such.

    Will we ever be wise enough to fight when we have the advantage?

    One can only hope.

    Parent

    "if you just declare war and fight it" (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 11:51:29 AM EST
    They always make it sound so easy.

    Parent
    Speak for yourself pal (none / 0) (#89)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:34:17 AM EST
    Why should he start fighting now? (none / 0) (#101)
    by jondee on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 01:12:17 PM EST
    he's just here to lend moral support.

    Parent
    Sad but true (none / 0) (#129)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 12:58:31 PM EST
    I did my bit years ago and time marches on no matter  how much we want to linger.

    Too bad you didn't help. We could have used the help.

    Parent

    Jim, as you know, (none / 0) (#149)
    by fishcamp on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 11:50:21 AM EST
    my mom was a block warden back in the '40's, and I walked with her.  What were you doing to help then?   (:-

    Parent
    Isn't it wonderful? (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:12:26 AM EST
    Not particularly (none / 0) (#3)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 01:22:25 PM EST
    After the Bergdahl swap,

    His judgement is in question

    Just waiting to see what we gave up this time

    Parent

    Maybe he should (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 01:30:35 PM EST
    have sent them "more than 1,500 missiles."

    After all, they seemed to be the preferred bartering commodity  when a god named Reagan negotiated with terrorists during his presidency.

    Link

    Parent

    No, (none / 0) (#13)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 03:36:56 PM EST
    That one seems pretty stupid also , on the face of it.

    Parent
    "Stupid" is putting it mildly. (none / 0) (#24)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 04:52:13 PM EST
    And "on the face of it" doesn't even begin to cut it. Please read Lawrence Walsh's "Firewall," and educate yourself. And FYI, Walsh was the special counsel appointed by the federal court to investigate the Iran-Contra affair, and despite considerable efforts by the right to portray him as otherwise, he was in fact a rock-ribbed Republican.

    Iran-Contra was the sort of stuff that one might have thought had sprung from the minds of some demented screenwriters of a Hollywood political black comedy -- only it was an all too real clusterphuque of considerable magnitude and consequence.

    The Rube Goldberg-worthy scheme that Bill Casey, John Poindexter, Oliver North, et al., concocted in President Reagan's name was truly scary and horrific. North was a self-righteous right-wing a$$wipe who deserved time in prison. Instead, the wingbats decided to check reality at the door and remade him into some sort of hero.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Hillary comes on strong (none / 0) (#27)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 06:26:06 PM EST
    Clinton calls for new sanctions on Iran

    Hours after the U.S. dropped sanctions on Iran as part of the nuclear deal, Democratic primary front-runner Hillary Clinton called for new sanctions on the nation for its ballistic missile program.

    "Iran is still violating UN Security Council resolutions with its ballistic missile program, which should be met with new sanctions designations and firm resolve," she said.

    "These prisoners were held unjustly by a regime that continues to threaten the peace and security of the Middle East," Clinton added. "Another American, Bob Levinson, still isn't home with his family."
     ...
     The former secretary of State said the U.S. should not "thank" Iran for releasing prisoners unjustly held or for following through on its obligations.

    link

    I wonder if Obama and Kerry appreciate her "diplomatic" efforts.

    Parent

    Maybe they can use her as 'bad cop' (none / 0) (#30)
    by ruffian on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 06:43:58 PM EST
    leverage to get things done before Obama leaves office...who knows, maybe they already did!

    Parent
    Well I guess that is as good a way (none / 0) (#32)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 07:03:12 PM EST
    to rationalize her actions as any. The 'bad cop' may be our next president. Personally, I would prefer our potential next CIC  not be so quick to advocate for actions that could jeopardize the newly formed diplomatic agreement. YMMV

    Parent
    I think (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by FlJoe on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:41:04 PM EST
    she is playing it pitch perfect. This deal was sold to us with the promise that we would not ease up on other issues of contention with Iran. Who better then to remind them Hillary, who engineered the the sanctions that got the whole deal started in the first place?

    There is actually a certain synchronicity to it that fits right in with the Kabuki dance that we are currently performing with Iran.

    Parent

    what did she say that you feel jeopardizes the (none / 0) (#33)
    by ruffian on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 07:35:46 PM EST
    agreement? Does Sanders feel that no more negotiations are necessary with Iran and they are in compliance with all previous reolutions?

    Parent
    Hillary has called for new sanctions (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:31:25 PM EST
    to be imposed on Iran. One of the conditions of the deal was that the sanctions be lifted. The sanctions were just lifted today and Hillary rushed to advocate for new sanctions.

     I'm sure that she can find Republican hopefuls to agree with her. There are Democrats and Republicans in Congress who would be more than happy to accommodate her request.

    There are hardliners on both sides who would love for this deal to fall through. Do you honestly think that if new sanctions are imposed it won't jeopardize this deal?

    There are negotiations and there are threats.I would expect Sanders to negotiate. Get back to me when Sanders joins Hillary in demanding new sanctions.

    Think back to the 2008 primary.  Is this move even a goodl primary strategy?

    4/2015 poll Americans in favor of a negotiated agreement with Iran.

    Supporting the agreement are Democrats 76 - 15 percent and independent voters 60 - 33 percent, with Republicans opposed 56 - 37 percent.


    Parent
    New sanctions (none / 0) (#56)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:48:51 PM EST
    Are deserved solely for Irans  recent firing of ballistic missiles, in violation of UN protocols.

    They are just continually laughing at us, knowing that Obama and Kerry will never inviolate the treaty, no matter what the Iranians do

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#58)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:51:47 PM EST
    you are correct this time. It is about the missiles and that is why Hillary is calling for sanctions.

    Parent
    Others beat me to it, but the sanctions that were (none / 0) (#61)
    by ruffian on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:08:19 PM EST
    just lifted were a result of the nuclear program deal, not any deal for ICBMs. That still has to be negotiated, and that is what she is talking about. She is not hurting the deal that was already concluded and signed and is being complied with. She is trying to set a high standard for the next deal. Someone told me that is what a good negotiator does.

    Parent
    Iran doesn't agree with you (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:39:48 PM EST
    Iranian officials have said the country's supreme leader would view such penalties as violating the nuclear accord.

    According to HRC's own account she used the same logic  when she voted for the AUMF. How did that turn out, not only Bush's actions but how did it affect the Democratic nomination in 2008?

    I believe in the current environment her actions may once again have results much different than what you anticipate. Hillary, the hawk, is a familiar figure. Guess we will see if hawks are in favor this time around.

    Parent

    I find Sanders supporters distortion (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:08:24 AM EST
    of Clinton's positions as hawkish and warmongering at least as misleading as Chelsea pointing out that in order to replace Obamacare Sanders needs to get rid of Obamacare.

    Parent
    Well that is your opinion (none / 0) (#104)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 02:48:17 PM EST
    Everyone has one. But if you bothered to read any of the links, you would know that it is not just Sanders supporters who are strongly disbuting the Clintons attacks.

    So far this week the majority of Democratic ink has gone to point out how intentionally misleading (I'm being kind here) the Clintons attacks on Sanders have been and how they were not to her best interest (being polite),

    I could produce numerous links to various actions and statements that could support the idea that HRC is "hawkish."

    Some she even made herself, about counciling for U.S. intervention when others were counciling for other approaches. I could also produce statements by people who have worked with her when she was SOS who said she was always on the side of more U.S. intervention etc. I could also produce links to comments by HRC supporters here and elsewhere where they state that they are uncomfortable with aspects of her foreign policy because they fear she may be too "hawkish."

    I really don't want to waste the time doing that because I doubt anything would change your opinion. It is not exactly relevant in any case.

    For the most part, in the case of HRC's attacks on Sanders single payer, the concenus opinion of the Democratic writers, regardless of who they support, is that she and Chelsea attacked using information that they knew to be false,  that this action was counterproductive (i.e. stupid) and hurt her campaign. They put up facts to substantiate their opinions.

    Among Democratic and Independent voters the jury may still be out on how hawkish they consider her and whether they consider it a good or bad thing. I do think that CW is that many Democratic and independent voters viewed her as a hawk in 2008 and that is one of the reasons they did not vote for her her.

    Parent

    cLinton wants a negotiated agreement too (none / 0) (#63)
    by ruffian on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:16:17 PM EST
    She was involved in the diplomacy leading to the nuclear agreement. She will be an experienced player going into the ICMB agreement negotiations. I would rate her chances of success pretty high.

    Parent
    This was (none / 0) (#37)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 07:58:51 PM EST
    decided back in December by Obama and Kerry here

    It's over their ballistic missile program.

    Parent

    No Obama and Kerry did not call for (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:21:20 PM EST
    additional sanctions to be imposed on Iran back in December. It was not DECIDED. Words like "potential sanctions," "looking..at options for various actions" and "considering various aspects" have specific meaning - none of which equate to a call for action.  From your link:

    The Wall Street Journal reported earlier that the potential sanctions would target about 12 companies and individuals in Iran, Hong Kong and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) for their suspected role in developing Iran's ballistic-missile program.

    U.S. officials have said the Treasury Department retains a right under July's landmark nuclear agreement between Iran and six world powers, including Washington, to blacklist Iranian entities suspected of involvement in missile development, the Journal said.

    "We've been looking for some time at options for additional actions related to Iran's ballistic missile program based on our continued concerns about its activities, including the October 10th launch," an Obama administration official said.

    "We are considering various aspects related to additional designations, as well as evolving diplomatic work that is consistent with our national security interests," the official said, on condition of anonymity.

    What was the Iranian response to the suggestion of additional sanctions?

    Iranian officials have said the country's supreme leader would view such penalties as violating the nuclear accord.

    For heaven's sake, the Obama administration just lifted the sanctions today. They did not call for new sanctions to be imposed on Iran. Hillary did.

    Parent

    See other (none / 0) (#66)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:30:50 PM EST
    posts. You are confusing things. The agreement before was about nuclear. This is about missiles.

    Parent
    I'm not confusing anything (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 10:05:03 PM EST
    Did you actually read the post that you linked to? From your link. Iran's response to the discussion of new sanctions.

    Iranian officials have said the country's supreme leader would view such penalties as violating the nuclear accord.

    What exactly do the words "violating the nuclear accord" mean to you?

    Does that statement say that it would jeopardize an agreement on missiles?

    Did Obama or anyone else in his current administration actually call for additional sanctions back in December? Did Obama or anyone in his administration ask Congress to impose these "potential sanctions" on Iran anytime since December? How about last week, yesterday or today?

    I get it. Hillary's supporters are ok with her tough talk and her call for more U,S, involvement in the M.E. The cheers are reverberating through the thread. Just perfect.

    Others not so much. It is one of the reasons she lost in 2008 and it is one of the reasons many Dems and independents don't want to vote for her now.

    Parent

    Is it surprising that Iran's (none / 0) (#96)
    by caseyOR on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 12:02:08 PM EST
    leaders would oppose these sanctions? Stop the presses! The supreme leader opposes sanctions!

    Of course Iranian leaders oppose the sanctions. Nonetheless, these sanctions are for the ballistic missile program, not the nuclear program.

    Parent

    Surprisingly, no (none / 0) (#109)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 03:54:29 PM EST
    The potential for jeopardizing the nuclear deal, I guess we will see.

    The U.S. has just imposed the sanctions HRC called for.

    Parent

    In one sense it's not surprising because (none / 0) (#110)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 04:00:16 PM EST
    Clinton and Obama are quite similar when it comes to punitive foreign policy. However, considering the 14-month journey taken by Obama's state department over the detainments, I think new sanctions at this point are a gamble. As you said, we'll see.

    Parent
    For heavens sake (none / 0) (#99)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 12:57:37 PM EST
    the supreme leader is a hot headed extremist(analogous to the GOP here), with dominant political power but no overarching governing power.
    He has always denounced the deal and he usually takes his "Death to America" tour on the road several times a year We are not dealing with him.

    In diplo-speak "looking at options for additional actions" is a fairly stern official statement certainly compared to the weaker gravity field of "private citizen" Clinton.

    The more I think about it, this is Hillary being a team player. There is no short term political gain for her here, she is sweating bullets in Iowa and NH and you got to concede that she already has the "hawk" vote sewed up, she has zero to gain.

    Of course the optics here are great later down the road and especially in the general but if her calculations were purely political why not wait to after NH? Just to rain on the Obama/Kerry parade? I think not.

    There will be no blowback on this on the diplomatic front. When  Hillary calls for sanctions the Supreme Leader hears nothing over the sheer volume of the bomb,bomb,bomb..bomb,bomb Iran crowd crowd. Meanwhile Kerry is telling  Rouhani, look dude the very best you can do after us is Hillary"sanctions Queen" Clinton(I'm guessing the Iranians have yet to feel the Bern)deal now or take your chances. Good cop, bad cop or psycho roid-rage cop, if you will.

    Parent

    Oh for goodness sake (none / 0) (#130)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:08:33 PM EST
    the supreme leader is a hot headed extremist(analogous to the GOP here),

    Your equivalency statement is quite nasty, given that the Iranian leader believes in killing gays, stoning women, honor killing of women and other such  crimes.

    The real comparison is between the Iranian killer who attacks attacks attacks and a Democrat president who runs runs runs to the rear so he can "lead."

    Parent

    And why do you suppose it is (none / 0) (#131)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:21:03 PM EST
    that your right-wing brothers-in-arms still lionize and pay homage to the president who secretly sold wmds to the terrorist Iranians and then ran ran ran with his tail between his legs from Lebanon?

    Your personal reflections are welcome.

    Parent

    Thank you and here they are (none / 0) (#134)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:47:48 PM EST
    The evil that men do lives after them;
    the good is oft interred with their bones.
    - William Shakespeare

    Shall we revisit Carter's midwifing the Iranian regime???

    Parent

    Bobbing and weaving like Sugar Ray.. (none / 0) (#136)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:55:12 PM EST
    Which doesn't answer the question: why didn't St Ron learn from Carter's so-obvious (to you) "midwifing" mistakes?

    Don't tell me: the Left utilized un-christian occult mind control tactics to cloud the Gipper's mind.

    Parent

    Try to be serious (none / 0) (#137)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 02:50:16 PM EST
    Iran did release the hostages. Why Reagan didn't attack then I don't know.

    Probably because he was preoccupied by the Soviets??

    20 20 hindsight gives us all kinds of questions.

    Why didn't we stop and let the Soviets take Berlin?

    Why didn't we nuke Red China when they entered the war in Korea?

    Why didn't we bomb Hanoi???

    Books and articles have been written on these and many others but the base answer is always the same.

    Politics. And depending on which side you're on you agree or disagree with what happened,

    Parent

    and (none / 0) (#138)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 02:56:20 PM EST
    lets not forget the CIA engineering the overthrow of a democratically elected government and the installation of the Shah's brutally repressive regime.

    Cherry picking history again I see.

    Parent

    You still can't read (1.00 / 1) (#142)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 04:26:15 PM EST
    Books and articles have been written on these and many others but the base answer is always the same.

    And the reason was to deny the Soviets a warm water port that would allow them to easily close off the west's supply of oil.

    Got any more soft balls that an old can hit out of the park???

    Parent

    Being a stooge again for Big Oil.. (none / 0) (#143)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 04:39:34 PM EST
    What a surprise.

    It's common knowledge by now that the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company asked the UK, MI-6 and CIA to intervene in the Iranian government's plan to nationalize oil fields.

    Cut the red-baiting bullsh*t for five minutes and go educate yourself.

    Parent

    Nuke China.. (none / 0) (#139)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 03:07:40 PM EST
    for intervening in the affairs of a nation along one it's borders..

    Sure, why not just nuke everyone? China, Iran, Vietnam..ourselves..

    Let Jesus sort out the good ones from the bad ones.

    And bring on the Rapture.

    Parent

    Btw in case you didn't know, Hanoi was bombed (none / 0) (#141)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 03:56:20 PM EST
    I know (none / 0) (#132)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:42:35 PM EST
    you struggle with  reading comprehension, but analogous does not mean equivalent.

    Parent
    And you demonstrate your inability (none / 0) (#135)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:54:41 PM EST
    for all to see.

    I said "equivalency statement" for a reason,

    A person or thing that is equal to or corresponds with another in value, amount, function, meaning, etc.

    Now try and muddy the water because I dared to note the crimes of Obama's and Kerry's buddy.

    Parent

    Now you want to argue about (none / 0) (#140)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 03:20:09 PM EST
    the English language.
    a·nal·o·gous
    comparable in certain respects, typically in a way that makes clearer the nature of the things compared.

    As in "reasoning with you is like teaching a turtle to fly".

    Parent
    You still don't understand?? (none / 0) (#144)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 04:44:07 PM EST
    Well, no surprise. Here, I'll try again.

    the supreme leader is a hot headed extremist(analogous to the GOP here),

    I was commenting on his claiming an equivalency.

    Equivalency - A person or thing that is equal to or corresponds with another in value, amount, function, meaning, etc.

    Your equivalency statement is quite nasty, given that the Iranian leader believes in killing gays, stoning women, honor killing of women and other such  crimes.

    I made no comment about his use of the word analogous.

    He was clarifying.

    I was noting the claim.

    Hope this helps.


    Parent

    I (none / 0) (#145)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 05:00:56 PM EST
    chose the word analogous specifically because I see no equivalence. You are the one who misread it, and  keep insisting I meant equivalence.

    Please Jim, for once in your life admit that you were mistaken and not drag another thread down the rat hole(metaphorically speaking of course).

    Hmm, maybe if I pump helium into the shell?

    Parent

    Gesh (none / 0) (#147)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 08:15:31 PM EST
    I made no comment regarding his use of analogous. Indeed I agreed that he was using it to compare a radical islamist to a US GOP politician.

    He was making a claim of equivalency.

    Two words. Two different meanings.

    And you are the one dragging things down.

    Parent

    UH oh (none / 0) (#148)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 08:20:01 PM EST
    used hydrogen instead of helium, oh the humanity.

    Parent
    I know that (none / 0) (#69)
    by lentinel on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:38:14 PM EST
    I, for one, do not appreciate HR Clinton's "diplomatic" efforts. I can hardly imagine that Obama or Kerry appreciate it either...or the freed prisoners for that matter.

    She seems to think that positioning herself to the right of Obama is the way to go.

    To whom is she appealing with this ?
    She certainly seems to be taking a lot for granted.

    Once in a great while, as in this instance, I am inclined to be appreciative of the use of diplomatic skill by the administration.

    Parent

    Not only was her proposal unnecessary, (none / 0) (#75)
    by shoephone on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:57:21 PM EST
    it was impulsive and reckless, on so many levels. This is not a prelude to realistic negotiation with Iran, but it may be the prelude to her return to private life--and not least because she just cr*pped all over John Kerry.

    Honestly, I think she just lost the primaries. And frankly, I would find it harder to support a so-called Democrat spouting this idea. The smell of desperation is engulfing her campaign, and you know what they say about desperate people doing desperate things.

    On the other hand, maybe she's in a good position to become the GOP nominee's running mate? She sure is sounding like a Republican.

    Parent

    Since Obama announced sanctions (none / 0) (#95)
    by caseyOR on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 11:57:25 AM EST
    because of Iran's ballistic missiles program today, my guess is Obama and Kerry are are just fine with Clinton's remarks.

    Parent
    You're right. They are on the same page (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 04:25:47 PM EST
    And the new sanctions action bothers me a lot. I think it's a huge gamble to assume the Iranians will react favorably...especially as the presidential election gets closer, and also because Rouhani may have less power and influence than the mullahs in this round.

    Parent
    Obama, Kerry, Clinton (none / 0) (#114)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 04:55:55 PM EST
    yes, there are three notorious gamblers there.

    I'm not worried about this one.

    Parent

    Methinks (none / 0) (#121)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 06:11:55 PM EST
    she was tipped off, or maybe the Devil woman hacked Kerry's email. It still raises serious questions....about something, I am sure we will be informed why this is a problem for Hillary shortly.

    Parent
    Back story: Stingray cellphone interceptor (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:33:28 PM EST
    The Dragnet: How a man accused of million-dollar fraud uncovered a never before seen, secret surveillance device, The Stingray - The Verge

    ...there was something else, something that wasn't reported on the seizure affidavit, the complaint, or any of the documents that followed. To track Rigmaiden down, the investigators had used a secret device, one that allowed them to pinpoint their target with far more accuracy than Verizon could. They called it a cell-site simulator, or by its trade name, Stingray. Neither term was found in the court order that authorized its use. The device had to be kept secret, even from the courts.

    The Stingray had worked perfectly. Agents traced the suspect's AirCard back to his apartment and now had more than enough evidence for a conviction. But in the years that followed, that open-and-shut case would turn into something far more complex. Working from prison, Rigmaiden would unravel decades of secrecy, becoming the world's foremost authority on the device that sent him to jail. By the time he was finished, a covert surveillance device and the system that kept it secret would be exposed to the public for the very first time.



    Go Broncos (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by fishcamp on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 05:32:10 PM EST


    Manning and his recievers (none / 0) (#118)
    by jondee on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 05:53:23 PM EST
    are way out of synch..

    They better figure it out soon.

    Parent

    2008 Groundhog Day (none / 0) (#10)
    by Kmkmiller on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 02:55:54 PM EST
    Dowd right on cue.

    It (none / 0) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 03:50:37 PM EST
    wouldn't be Dowd if it wasn't.

    Parent
    Add an R to modo (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Kmkmiller on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 04:42:08 PM EST
    MODOR!!!!!

    Parent
    Only in America (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 03:24:15 PM EST
    I just saw an ad on TV for dog food that improves your dog's mind.

    I think I'll send a bag to some people I know.

    ;-)

    Give us your address, (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Zorba on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 03:51:31 PM EST
    and I'll take up a collection here to send you a hundred pounds of it, Jim.     ;-)

    Parent
    I'll be happy to contribute (none / 0) (#29)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 06:28:58 PM EST
    I know a guy who knows a guy (none / 0) (#78)
    by shoephone on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 10:23:13 PM EST
    in freight and shipping.

    Parent
    I love all you guys (none / 0) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:27:57 AM EST
    Jury in Porter/Freddie Gray trial (none / 0) (#16)
    by McBain on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 03:48:28 PM EST
    was 11-1 in favor of acquittal on manslaughter but 10-2 in favor of conviction on misconduct in office.
    Link

    I Guess that makes you (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:22:40 PM EST
    ...happy that a kid died for doing nothing illegal.

    I can't believe how much you like to spike the ball over injustice.  I wasn't in the court, but it is hard to understand how a dead man is responsible for his own death.  If there is no possibility of his death being accidental, who killed him?

    Should we be looking for the "real killer?"

    Parent

    Is it (none / 0) (#45)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:28:18 PM EST
    Possible that the DA was practicing politics when she leveled charges against all of these police officers? Perhaps she overcharged?
    Which would just compound the injustice you feel occurred with another,
    And , how does that help?

    Parent
    It might help her career (none / 0) (#85)
    by McBain on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 01:15:07 AM EST
    outside of politics if not in politics itself.  Even if the case blows up in her face, she can write books like Jeff Ashton and Marcia Clark, go on the lecture tour, maybe reality TV. Shell be fine.

    The officers, on the other hand, probably won't have as many options.  Some might get convicted until their sentences are overturned on appeal.

    Parent

    They were (none / 0) (#86)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 07:15:14 AM EST
    Close to conviction on the lesser charge. I have read that this was also going to be the hardest case to get a conviction on, but they also wanted his testimony in the other cases going forward.

    Should have given him immunity for his testimony, but now, his testimony I would think is useless anyway, as the prosecution repeatedly said he was lying in his own trial.

    I have no clue what the prosecutions next steps are going forward. I think they might have overcharged, to great public appeal, but now have created a very high legal bar they must meet.

    Parent

    Avery's ex-fiance now says he's guilty (none / 0) (#20)
    by McBain on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 04:03:47 PM EST
    Link

    At one point during "Making a Murderer", I thought this was a great love story that the powers that be were doing everything they could to ruin.  Now, I wonder if it's another situation of a scorned woman seeking revenge.  Jodi Stachowski, doesn't really have any new evidence to shed light on the case, in fact some of what she has to say now, contradicts what she said earlier.    

    I'm sure that matters to someone. (none / 0) (#25)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 04:56:49 PM EST
    Just not to me right now. Hopefully, justice will eventually and somehow prevail, in spite of everyone who's even remotely connected to this case apparently rushing to cash in on their Andy Warhol-allotted 15 minutes.

    Parent
    "The Los Angeles Rams." (none / 0) (#26)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 05:59:42 PM EST
    The once-iconic team of my youth has officially returned to the Southland, and its name still has a very nice ring to it.

    The Rams played in Southern California for 48 years before late owner Georgia Frontiere abruptly moved the team to St. Louis after the 1994 season. They are the face and symbol of NFL football in L.A., in a way that neither the Raiders nor the Chargers can ever hope to replicate or emulate.

    Raiders owner Mark Davis and Chargers owner Gus Spanos should instead make nice, by seeking to repair the once-special relationships their teams formerly enjoyed with their loyal fans in Oakland and San Diego, respectively.

    Both franchises thrived very well in those markets for decades. Davis, Spanos and the NFL shouldn't now blame those cities for the conscious choices which they themselves have made regarding the conduct of their business.

    As Oakland Mayor Libby Schaaf told the NFL last month, her door is open and she is willing to work with Davis, but her city cannot afford to foot the bill for a new Raiders stadium when they're still paying off the bonds for the expensive renovations to the Coliseum that the team demanded upon their return 20 years ago.

    Aloha.

    St. Louis should be happy the Rams left (none / 0) (#35)
    by Dadler on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 07:53:31 PM EST
    They were going to bankrupt themselves further, and with the social divide in the city, well, I just don't thinking getting on your knees for a Walmart heir's hubby was in the long term interests of that city. Not that Inglewood won't end up with some serious costs to contend with, but the L.A. market is exponentially more capable of absorbing those likely infrastructure costs. But since the NFL is going to pay less than half minimum wage to kids and parents from my son's high school music department in exchange for preparing Levi's Stadium for the Super Bowl halftime show ($3000 for 60 people putting in two full days of work), and describe it as a charity and fundraising opportunity for the school, please, eff those billionaires. It's a servitude opportunity. You could probably do better selling toffee peanuts and chocolate bars door to door.

    Parent
    And Inglewood's already rezoned the property at the former Hollywood Park.

    Parent
    Difficult to talk about Sexism (none / 0) (#28)
    by Kmkmiller on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 06:28:44 PM EST
    And one of the things muddying up the issue is anti Clinton sentiment that exists in the media we know it does... Even Bernie supporters know it does when the discussion turns to general election electability (just don't suggest Bernie has an advantage because of this)...

    So it muddies things up ...  I'm talking more about that Maddow interview cause I watched it again last night and there's this weird question at the end ... Maddow essentially asks "can Clinton choose a female running mate?" and of course the answer is "yes," and that's what Clinton said almost making it not just a yes but a hell yes you betcha.

    But the way Maddow framed the question felt really bizarre to me Maddow was actually arguing in a pretty straight forward way that Hillary's campaign was setting back the women's movement by making it impossible for a woman to be picked for vice president.

    Now not to get myself in trouble here because I will be the first to point out the vast differences between discrimination against women and discrimination against African Americans (women dont get murdered by police on city streets just for being women), but I can't imagine anyone baiting the race issue with candidate Obama back in the day without starting at least a minor kerfuffle ..

    Weird question if you ask me... Coulda asked about a real policy... Chose not to.

    The media (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 06:58:26 PM EST
    understands racism but they don't understand sexism sorry to say. But yeah, I know if someone had asked Obama "could you pick an African American for VP" there would have been a completely different reaction or the question would never have been asked in the first place.

    Parent
    Much less (none / 0) (#34)
    by Kmkmiller on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 07:51:02 PM EST
    Imply Obama is taking the vice presidency away from an African American.

    Parent
    I find it hard to imagine (none / 0) (#36)
    by Peter G on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 07:58:47 PM EST
    that sexism is more of an impediment to the election of a female candidate for President, than is anti-semitism and other religious prejudice to the election of an irreligious Jew. Anyone know any statistics or polling on this?

    Parent
    Honestly (none / 0) (#38)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:03:06 PM EST
    I don't think being a woman is that big of a problem. It's that the media is the problem here.

    here it says being a woman 8% would not vote for them, 7% would not vote for someone who is Jewish, 40% would not vote for an atheist and 50% would not vote for a socialist.

    Parent

    Did I forget to mention "who is a (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Peter G on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:09:00 PM EST
    self-professed socialist"?  ;)

    Parent
    Looking at that chart (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Kmkmiller on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:14:32 PM EST
    They should have asked "would you vote for a ....... politician?"

    Like to see that answer.

    Parent

    That's exactly it (none / 0) (#40)
    by Kmkmiller on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:16:55 PM EST
    You ask anyone on the street if they'd vote for a woman, they're gonna say yes.  And they'll mean it too, not just being PC, they even want it, people aren't inherently evil.

    But ask them if they saw how Maddows question had a rather insidious implication or ask them if they notice every time Clinton goes on offense the media calls it a "vile and vicious" attack, they won't notice any of that and then poof the woman candidate just happens to be that one woman candidate they don't like but they'll vote for a woman next time.

    Cause yeah we do want a woman president one day.  

    Parent

    yeah....if 92% of people had no problem voting for (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by ruffian on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:43:16 PM EST
    Women there would be a lot more of them in high places. I have no confidence  in those numbers. Interesting to think about how they compare to religious minorities. About the same if those numbers are to be believed....I guess they are just as likely to vote for someone they think is going to hell as they are for a woman.

    Parent
    The dudebro (none / 0) (#55)
    by Kmkmiller on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:47:35 PM EST
    Will say he'll vote for a woman but seeing a woman criticize a fellow dudebro in an election... So many triggers.

    Parent
    Yeah...so many ex-wives to be reminded of (none / 0) (#60)
    by ruffian on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:02:17 PM EST
    If you go (none / 0) (#57)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:51:02 PM EST
    to the link I think there's something like 18% that won't vote for a Mormon and Romney lost maybe not because of that. However your point is taken. I have also seen some of them polled separately and gotten different results.

    Parent
    The irony (none / 0) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:23:26 PM EST
    is they are digging their own graves with that kind of thing looking at those numbers I linked to. Do they want a Republican president? Maybe they do.

    Parent
    Ezra Klein's (none / 0) (#43)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:24:33 PM EST
    Take on Bernie, Hillary, Health Care

    http://tinyurl.com/h4ua44w

    "No matter how you get there," Clinton replied.

    This statement almost certainly isn't true. It's easy to imagine awful ways to achieve universal health care -- financed through a tax on the poorest Americans, for instance, or built atop regulations that stifle medical innovation. A thoughtful, serious argument about why single-payer isn't the best path forward would have won Clinton more fans than this kind of obvious pandering.

    Clinton went on to reprise her argument that the real problem with Sanders's plan is that it would try to get states to administer the health care programs, though, again, she never mentions the federal fallback in the scenario where states refuse to build out their plans.

    The result is that Clinton argued in one breath against Sanderscare, which works like a supercharged version of Obamacare, and then in the next breath called Obamacare "one of the signature accomplishments, not just of this president but of the Democratic Party," and said she was running to defend it.

    All this, though, is Clinton's attempt to obscure the big picture: Sanders supports a single-payer health care system, and she doesn't. The technical arguments she's making about past legislation he's proposed could all be addressed if the bills moved forward. That's not the real disagreement between Clinton and Sanders. The real disagreement is he thinks we should move forward on single-payer, and she doesn't.

    The problem (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:27:06 PM EST
    with having states administer it has been well established with the Medicaid expansion.

    Ezra is really out of it on this one.

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#49)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:35:06 PM EST
    Not a bad piece, nuanced.
    You need to read it completely to get the jist of it.

    Basically, Hillary doesn't fully trust primary voters...

    linton's view is that anyone who actually cares about insuring the uninsured needs to grapple with the power of the status quo -- and Sanders hasn't come close. He hasn't even released a real plan, which, quite fairly, drives Clinton nuts. "The devil's in the details when it comes to health care," she told Rachel Maddow.

    Obamacare, meanwhile, rests on shaky ground. Barely 60 percent of states have even accepted the Medicaid expansion. And one of the prime arguments against Obamacare is that, modest as it was, it still canceled some insurance plans. For Sanders to crash into this debate with a vague proposal to cancel many, many, many more is to imperil the fragile gains that have already been made.

    But Clinton doesn't trust Democratic primary voters to listen to that argument. Pragmatism might win in policymaking, she believes, but inspirational fantasies win primaries. So her campaign has, instead, tried out a series of attacks on Sanders meant to confuse primary voters about where the two candidates actually stand.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#50)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:38:12 PM EST
    actually Hillary does understand primary voters. Bernie does not understand the process it seems to getting things through. The reason Hillary's are smaller is because it's what she thinks she can get through. Even Bernie admits he can't get his program through and it also has high taxes for the middle class included. I mean even his own Governor is campaigning against him because trying it Bernie's way almost cost him reelection.

    Parent
    I think the lasti thing she expected was to have (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by ruffian on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:59:04 PM EST
    an argument about health care in the primary after it was so hard to even get the ACA through and implemented, as imperfect as it is. I think she was prepared to talk about single payer as an ultimate long term goal that she was still in favor of until Bernie started talking about it as a first term goal.

    Her handling of it is not doing her any good. I understand that her inner pragmatist would not allow it, but maybe she should have just smiled and agreed with him about it.

    Parent

    Maybe she could have put her plan (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 10:50:42 PM EST
    out there and explained how it was better. Sanders could have explained why he thought his was better. We could of had a real discussion about how to fix a serious problem in this country.

    Instead she and Chelsea went on the attack  distorting information and using WSJ cost information that was debunked back in December by the very person who the Journal cited as the source of the information contained in their article. A couple of days after the WJS piece, Dr. Gerald Friedman published an Open Letter to the WSJ debunking what in his own worlds was a "hit piece."

    Evidently quite a few Democratic pundits and bloggers read Dr. Friedman's  "Open Letter" since when HRC first went after Sanders about the $15 trillion dollar cost in a debate, a few mentioned that the number she was using had been debunked a while back. Instead of changing course, Chelsea and the Hillary doubled down on their attacks on single payer distorting information and making false claims.

    Do you realize that in the last few days,  influencial Democratic pundits, bloggers and fact checks have come out and said that the Clintons were making claims that they knew were false. Some thought it was shameful or desperate and most thought it was stupid.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#67)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:32:56 PM EST
    the problem is this is going nowhere. Single payer is not going to happen. It's just not. The time has passed really for it to even be discussed.

    Parent
    But (5.00 / 4) (#71)
    by lentinel on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:45:14 PM EST
    it is in fact being discussed.

    We're discussing it.
    Sanders is discussing it.

    Eventually, the American people are going to begin to wonder why we can't have what so many other countries have.

    Actually, thanks to Sanders and, I have to say, Trump, people are beginning to wonder about it out loud.

    Parent

    I can understand why you don't want it to (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by Anne on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:54:23 PM EST
    be discussed, but the fact is that that is exactly what is happening: thanks to Bernie Sanders, we're finally getting the chance to have the discussion we should have had in 2009, when Obama embarked on the ACA.

    I continue to be amazed at how unabashedly you make these declaratory statements that bear no relationship to reality.

    Parent

    Right...the guy who's been in the (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Anne on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:19:17 PM EST
    House, and then the Senate, for years, doesn't understand the process of getting things through.  Sure, that makes sense.

    There are no "high taxes" for the middle class in Sanders' plan.

    And what you know about Vermont's efforts and experience would fit on the head of a pin...with room to spare.

    You are just a fount of deliberate misinformation.

    Parent

    First of all (none / 0) (#68)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:34:15 PM EST
    his 2013 plan called for a 9% tax. He has not released another plan. So that's all we have to go on.

    Parent
    Do you have a link to that 9% rate? (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Anne on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 09:47:57 PM EST
    Because here's what I've found:

    Sanders proposes to expand Medicare, the health safety net that covers those over 65, to all Americans. He hasn't released a full plan yet, but he points to previous legislation he's introduced, namely a 2013 bill for a single-payer Medicare-for-all system, as his general gameplan.

    To pay for it, Sanders would impose broad-based taxes: a 6.7 percent payroll tax on employers and a 2.2 percent tax on individual incomes under $200,000 or joint incomes under $250,000. (Progressively higher rates for higher-income earners are described in his 2013 bill.)

    Sanders' campaign says his Medicare-for-all plan would save the average American family $3,855 to $5,173 in annual health care costs.

    Instead of an insurance premium, a family making $50,000 -- roughly the median family income -- would only pay $1,100 in health care income taxes. That's $3,855 less than what it would pay out-of-pocket for the average premium ($4,955, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation) and $5,173 less if a deductible ($1,318, for individual coverage) is factored in.

    As for employers, the 6.7 percent payroll tax means employers would put up $3,350 for family coverage. That's also thousands less than the average employer premium contribution of $12,591.

    What's consistently and endlessly aggravating is that this is information that is readily and easily available to you, but you choose to pluck your "facts"...from where, exactly?

    Good God, Georgia - you clearly have an abundance of time to be online; is there any chance you will ever devote a few minutes to engage in something other than virtual gossip?

    Parent

    You might want to look (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 11:23:06 PM EST
    at the internals of the polls.

    Hillary scores poorly in the category of trustworthiness. The concenus on the reporting of the attacks by Chelsea and Hillary on Sanders regarding his health care plan is that they knowing distorted information to present a false and misleading picture of what he is proposing.

    She misread the primary voters in 2008 and there is a good possibility that she is misreading them this time around as well. Primary voters already think she is untrustworthy. Giving them more proof that their accessment is accurate might not be an indication of great understanding of primary voters.

    BTW, since I'm really sick of this refrain that Sanders does not understand the process of getting stuff through,  here is another fact for you to ignore. Sanders recently marshalled a very extensive veterans bill through the process and got it signed into law in an adverse environment.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#51)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:39:40 PM EST
    and your statement about the Medicaid expansion proves my point to a T. What you're basically saying is that Bernie is selling pie in the sky when Hillary is telling them the truth.

    Parent
    No Exra is saying that Hillary is (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 11:48:23 PM EST
    NOT telling the truth.

    One version of the attack accuses Sanders of raising taxes on middle-class Americans. "There is no way that can be paid for without raising taxes on the middle class," Clinton said in Iowa. "The arithmetic just doesn't add up."

    Here, Clinton is neglecting to mention that those taxes would replace the insurance premiums people are already paying, and would likely be lower than the insurance premiums people are already paying. If single-payer is cheaper than the current health care system -- and most experts believe it would be -- then the net result would be less spending.

    Clinton knows all this perfectly well...

    Link



    Parent
    Ezra Hillary claim #2 NOT the truth (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 11:57:20 PM EST
    The next version of Clinton's attack criticizes Sanders for a past single-payer plan he sponsored that would rely partly on state contributions for funding.

    "[Sanders] wants to roll Medicare, Medicaid, the Children's Health Insurance Program, the Affordable Care Act program, and private health insurance into a national system and turn it over to the states to administer," Clinton said, warning that could be "a big problem" if Republican governors refuse to pay their share.

    Here, again, Clinton knows better. Medicaid, the Children's Health Insurance Program -- which she helped create -- and Obamacare are already administered by the states and already rely on state funding. Sanders's plan would reduce the share of contributions states are responsible for and provide a federal fallback that doesn't currently exist if states refuse to participate in those programs.

    Also mentioned is the fact that under Obamacare's private health insurance system millions of people aren't covered. Sanders' plan would lead to more Americans with health insurance.

    Parent

    Disingenuousness becomes farce in claim #3 (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 12:00:25 AM EST
    A third version of the attack was handed to Chelsea Clinton to launch. "Senator Sanders wants to dismantle Obamacare, dismantle the CHIP program, dismantle Medicare, and dismantle private insurance," she said. "I worry if we give Republicans Democratic permission to do that, we'll go back to an era -- before we had the Affordable Care Act -- that would strip millions and millions and millions of people off their health insurance."

    Here, the disingenuousness becomes farce. The idea that folding a patchwork of smaller programs into a single universal program represents "dismantling" those programs -- much less giving Republicans permission to dismantle those programs -- flies in the face of basically every Democratic attempt to expand social insurance ever. The 1994 Clinton health care plan, to name just one example, "dismantled" virtually every existing insurance arrangement in the country in order to create a single, unified structure that could cover more people.



    Parent
    Sanders could nip this in the bud (none / 0) (#92)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:10:18 AM EST
    by saying he would phase in single payer by offering a public option as part of the current system.  I think people would flock to that and the rest of the system could then be dismantled over time.

    Parent
    Not really (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 04:13:36 PM EST
    That is not what Sanders supports and it is not what his his supporters want.

    Please go back and look at the last public option that was being discussed before it was negotiated away in a back room deal. It was a joke. It was a program that was intentionally designed  to fail. Actually, the insurance industry should have paid big money for the last configuration of the public option to be implemented. After it very quickly failed, they and certain members of Congress could say, see we tried but it never was a good idea to begin - buy more private insurance.

    There is no way I would support that.

    Parent

    But what if it was a medicare expansion (none / 0) (#115)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 05:00:42 PM EST
    much like he is talking about,  that was something people could opt into? Instead of doing the replacement of the current system all at once?

    I really think that is how we are going to get to single payer eventually.

    Parent

    I seriously doubt that even (none / 0) (#120)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 06:11:52 PM EST
    Sanders envisions replacing the system all at once.

    IMO the biggest mistake single payer advocates made when the discussions began on reforming health care was to let a public option become the topic of discussion at the beginning of the process rather than sticking with the demand for a single payer system. Once they conceded ground to the "public option" they and we lost any chance of getting anything that would work. It was soon pretty predictable that any "public option" that came out of the process would be really bad and would be be a poison pill for single payer and not a road to it.

    I am saying this not because I can't envision a process that could be a road to single payer but because I believe that there is no road there if we once again start a discussion of a public option at this point in time.

    We have an advocate for a single payer system now. He is out there drawing huge crowds and selling the only way IMO we will get universal affordable health care. I don't want Sanders to advocate for anything else. The time to discuss anything else is not now. At this point in time, I refuse to go that route. It is time for Sanders and other advocates to sell single payer. We may not get it this time around but the seeds are being sown as they have never been sown before.

    Parent

    I know what you mean (none / 0) (#122)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 06:16:28 PM EST
    I didn't mean the public option with a capital PO.

    I'm glad Sanders is sticking to single payer, my suggestion was that when he talks about how he is going to implement it he provides some non-scary details about the transition to it.

    Parent

    The concept of single payer according (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 07:11:31 PM EST
    to the polls is very popular with a whole lot of Dem and Independent voters. Something like 8 in 10 Dems and 6 in 10 indies are in favor of it when it is framed as Medicare-for-all. I really don't get a feel that it is scary but we all tend to kinda think more people think the way we do then might be true.

    I do think Sanders needs to flesh out more details on his plan and how it would be rolled out. If I had my druthers, both candidates would put out the costs of their proposals, and how they plan to make their health care system universal etc. around the same time so that a fair comparison could be done. Probably won't happen but that is what I would like.

    Parent

    You've probably seen this (none / 0) (#126)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 07:16:36 PM EST
    The plan is out.  His spokesman says its six pages.  Just said that on MSNBC.  
    Not sure how a six page healthcare plan will play out.  But we are about to find out because as the spokesman said Hillary can read it before the debate.

    Parent
    I've read it (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:39:01 PM EST
    It is an overview with general info regarding structure, no premiums, no deductible, no co-pays etc.,additional coverage and health care saves. A section on how it will be paid for. Does not go into how it will be rolled out or other more specific detains.

    IMO both candidates need to flesh out their plans and provide more detailed information. I would like to see more cost info from Hillary as well.
     

    Parent

    Also, I believe Senator Sanders (none / 0) (#105)
    by KeysDan on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 02:50:33 PM EST
    needs to clarify his present day position.  He says he will  do so before the Iowa primary. And, perhaps more with be forthcoming tonight during the debate. That would be good.

     I would agree that Mrs. Clinton and Chelsea have overblown what I believe the Sanders idea to be: re-organize existing health services  into a new program. Not eliminate any health services, except the dismantlement of private insurance.  And, there will be a reorganization of costs,essentially, among taxes, wages/salaries previously provided in lieu of health coverage, and premiums.

    But, this dream begs for details so as to be a viable campaign promise.  Yes, not on day one Sanders says, but a big order even for day 1408.

     The plan does not sound to me like Medicare for All, not with the states involved and even a federal backup. The earlier Sanders' proposals were prior to NFIAB v Sebelius  (2012) that struck down the Medicaid expansion that "coerced" states to participate or lose all Medicaid funding. And, that was with 100% federal funding to states (ending up in 2020 with 90% funding).

    Mrs. Clinton may have gone too far, but Senator Sanders may be misrepresenting reality and giving false hope.  That, too, is going too far.

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    States not involved in the (none / 0) (#146)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 08:05:22 PM EST
    Plan just released.

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    Not my Statement! (none / 0) (#53)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:42:57 PM EST
    It is Ezra's.

    I am just reading reading all this stuff to better understand the internecine warfare!!!

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    Of course you are (none / 0) (#90)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:40:18 AM EST
    But FYI the fact you "like" it is a big ole red flag for most here.

    No offense.

    Archival question, has Klien ever said anything positive about anything related to Hillary?  Ever?
     

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    Never said (none / 0) (#97)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 12:15:55 PM EST
    I like it. Is it accurate?
    I am trying to inform myself and by posting here it here , perhaps others could point out where Ezra was accurate, or he had holes in his hypothesis.

    Am not to familiar with Ezra, other than that he is a progressive's progressive, and of the age where he might be attuned to a new Democratic leadership. So he might not have many pro Hillary positions.

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    Read (none / 0) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 08:34:35 PM EST
    Arizona (none / 0) (#79)
    by FlJoe on Sat Jan 16, 2016 at 10:43:57 PM EST
    beats GB in ot 26-20, amazing game.

    Lol (none / 0) (#87)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 07:20:23 AM EST
    I turned it off, figured Arizona had it locked up. Saw on ESPN.com, game was in OT. Put the TV back on.
    Am in a NFL bracket pool, similar to the NCAA, am 6-0 so far, need Seattle and Pittsburgh wins today to continue my inevitable march!!!

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    Uh oh (none / 0) (#98)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 12:17:16 PM EST
    Seattle not looking too good right now, even if it still is in the 1st quarter.

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    Turning into a (none / 0) (#100)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 01:04:40 PM EST
    laugher now.

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    I never noticed before (none / 0) (#102)
    by jondee on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 01:17:43 PM EST
    that Newton doesn't step into his throws. He just plants his feet and relies on his arm strength.

    I guess it's a case of if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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    May have to (none / 0) (#103)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 01:21:21 PM EST
    Reconsider Carolina

    Really thought Seattle would stand toe to toe with them,

    Ouch!

    Not feeling good about my late game pick either, especially with Big Ben hurting

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    Final: Carolina 31, Seattle 24. (none / 0) (#107)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 03:31:51 PM EST
    Actually, they did stand toe to toe with them, once they finally got their act together in the second half. Unfortunately, a 31-0 halftime deficit proved too deep a hole for the Seahawks to overcome in the final 30 minutes. But to their credit, they didn't give up and made the Panthers and their fans sweat it out to the end.

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    Despite the Trump (none / 0) (#106)
    by KeysDan on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 03:26:28 PM EST
    squishing Ted Cruz on "New York values," Ted has doubled down.   It plays well among his Iowans, it means: same sex marriage, pro-abortion, a focus around money and media.  Stripped of the usually abhorred political correctness with a wink and a nod: I am anti-gay, anti-women's choice, and anti-Jew (which was played out on SNL)--- just the way you like it.

    I think this is (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 03:53:44 PM EST
    A mistake.  But he didn't ask me.

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    Maybe (none / 0) (#113)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 04:34:51 PM EST
     a mistake but Trump has doubled down every single time, and has won every single time. I know he's not the Donald, but he still has a chance of coming out ahead on this gambit in Iowa and certainly in parts of the South if he plays it skilfully.

    That being said Cruz has suddenly accumulated a load of baggage he wasn't carrying 2 weeks ago.

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    Same old same old (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 06:00:46 PM EST
    GOP has been trashing the eastern seaboard and the west coast as having different values than the 'heartland' forever. That is the party Trump is trying to lead. He did well with the 9/11 reference the other night, but the party faithful knows what Cruz meant and agree with it. Might not hurt Trump - they will forgive their crazy uncle his odd views on loving the big city, but they will never a agree with it.

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    Tuning in at 9 pm to see two (none / 0) (#116)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 05:08:38 PM EST
    smart frenemies debate health care policy in the dark days before a national single payer plan.

    Cousin Isobel is probably on the right side of history, but I bet the Dowager Countess gets in the best zingers.

    The Godfather Epic (none / 0) (#123)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 06:27:27 PM EST
    HBO is running this tonight.  I've been popping in and out and I'm recording it.  It has some footage not included in the other releases.  It's quite wonderful actually


    First aired in 1977, The Godfather Epic is a TV special with both The Godfather and The Godfather Part II cut into chronological order, but the epic also includes extra footage cut from the originals. Because you didn't want to get anything done today anyway, right?


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    It's 7 and a half hours (none / 0) (#124)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 06:43:04 PM EST