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Though I'm sure the GOP would have preferred we kill a bunch of people to get ours back rather than a swap. Obama is so weak.
The Republican presidential candidates, of course, did not like the deal because it made us look weak and then, there is that Iran Nuclear deal to knock. Never to miss an opportunity, even if it is the release of Americans. Cruz did think it was good that "Pastor Abedini" was released; Trump said it was a bad deal, bad (using his repeat cadence). Rand Paul, seemed to have had some recent reality therapy: he said "it is a sign of hope." Parent
OTOH we can just shut up and take it. Parent
War is always unpredictable. Did you learn nothing from Little Boots' Iraq adventure? Parent
And it is reported that 3 more Americans are missing.
So, is it in our best interests to fight now when we have advantage in weapons.
Or should we just shut up and take what ever the islamist terrorists, and the nation states that support them, want to pass out?
While you are deciding remember that WWII could have been avoided by France and England moving against Hitler early on.
Instead their politicians stuck their fingers in the air and "led from behind" by taking no actions, Parent
In every historic instance?
Interesting.
Along with that 20/20 hindsight, you should keep in mind that the perception was still extant in some high places at that time that Germany was a "bulwark" against the SU and the spread of communism. Parent
You're thinking in checkers terms in the middle of an intricate chess match. Parent
And there is no chess game if you just declare war and fight it with all resources.
OTOH if you try to play 3 D chess with people who will always lie and break treaties you ain't gonna win. Parent
That, or starting a gun collection.
I repeat, not gonna happen. As you well know. Parent
Will we ever be wise enough to fight when we have the advantage?
One can only hope. Parent
Too bad you didn't help. We could have used the help. Parent
His judgement is in question
Just waiting to see what we gave up this time Parent
After all, they seemed to be the preferred bartering commodity when a god named Reagan negotiated with terrorists during his presidency.
Link Parent
Iran-Contra was the sort of stuff that one might have thought had sprung from the minds of some demented screenwriters of a Hollywood political black comedy -- only it was an all too real clusterphuque of considerable magnitude and consequence.
The Rube Goldberg-worthy scheme that Bill Casey, John Poindexter, Oliver North, et al., concocted in President Reagan's name was truly scary and horrific. North was a self-righteous right-wing a$$wipe who deserved time in prison. Instead, the wingbats decided to check reality at the door and remade him into some sort of hero.
Aloha. Parent
Clinton calls for new sanctions on Iran Hours after the U.S. dropped sanctions on Iran as part of the nuclear deal, Democratic primary front-runner Hillary Clinton called for new sanctions on the nation for its ballistic missile program. "Iran is still violating UN Security Council resolutions with its ballistic missile program, which should be met with new sanctions designations and firm resolve," she said. "These prisoners were held unjustly by a regime that continues to threaten the peace and security of the Middle East," Clinton added. "Another American, Bob Levinson, still isn't home with his family." ... The former secretary of State said the U.S. should not "thank" Iran for releasing prisoners unjustly held or for following through on its obligations. link
Hours after the U.S. dropped sanctions on Iran as part of the nuclear deal, Democratic primary front-runner Hillary Clinton called for new sanctions on the nation for its ballistic missile program.
"Iran is still violating UN Security Council resolutions with its ballistic missile program, which should be met with new sanctions designations and firm resolve," she said.
"These prisoners were held unjustly by a regime that continues to threaten the peace and security of the Middle East," Clinton added. "Another American, Bob Levinson, still isn't home with his family." ... The former secretary of State said the U.S. should not "thank" Iran for releasing prisoners unjustly held or for following through on its obligations.
link
I wonder if Obama and Kerry appreciate her "diplomatic" efforts. Parent
There is actually a certain synchronicity to it that fits right in with the Kabuki dance that we are currently performing with Iran. Parent
I'm sure that she can find Republican hopefuls to agree with her. There are Democrats and Republicans in Congress who would be more than happy to accommodate her request.
There are hardliners on both sides who would love for this deal to fall through. Do you honestly think that if new sanctions are imposed it won't jeopardize this deal?
There are negotiations and there are threats.I would expect Sanders to negotiate. Get back to me when Sanders joins Hillary in demanding new sanctions.
Think back to the 2008 primary. Is this move even a goodl primary strategy?
4/2015 poll Americans in favor of a negotiated agreement with Iran.
Supporting the agreement are Democrats 76 - 15 percent and independent voters 60 - 33 percent, with Republicans opposed 56 - 37 percent.
They are just continually laughing at us, knowing that Obama and Kerry will never inviolate the treaty, no matter what the Iranians do Parent
Iranian officials have said the country's supreme leader would view such penalties as violating the nuclear accord.
According to HRC's own account she used the same logic when she voted for the AUMF. How did that turn out, not only Bush's actions but how did it affect the Democratic nomination in 2008?
I believe in the current environment her actions may once again have results much different than what you anticipate. Hillary, the hawk, is a familiar figure. Guess we will see if hawks are in favor this time around. Parent
So far this week the majority of Democratic ink has gone to point out how intentionally misleading (I'm being kind here) the Clintons attacks on Sanders have been and how they were not to her best interest (being polite),
I could produce numerous links to various actions and statements that could support the idea that HRC is "hawkish."
Some she even made herself, about counciling for U.S. intervention when others were counciling for other approaches. I could also produce statements by people who have worked with her when she was SOS who said she was always on the side of more U.S. intervention etc. I could also produce links to comments by HRC supporters here and elsewhere where they state that they are uncomfortable with aspects of her foreign policy because they fear she may be too "hawkish."
I really don't want to waste the time doing that because I doubt anything would change your opinion. It is not exactly relevant in any case.
For the most part, in the case of HRC's attacks on Sanders single payer, the concenus opinion of the Democratic writers, regardless of who they support, is that she and Chelsea attacked using information that they knew to be false, that this action was counterproductive (i.e. stupid) and hurt her campaign. They put up facts to substantiate their opinions.
Among Democratic and Independent voters the jury may still be out on how hawkish they consider her and whether they consider it a good or bad thing. I do think that CW is that many Democratic and independent voters viewed her as a hawk in 2008 and that is one of the reasons they did not vote for her her. Parent
It's over their ballistic missile program. Parent
The Wall Street Journal reported earlier that the potential sanctions would target about 12 companies and individuals in Iran, Hong Kong and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) for their suspected role in developing Iran's ballistic-missile program. U.S. officials have said the Treasury Department retains a right under July's landmark nuclear agreement between Iran and six world powers, including Washington, to blacklist Iranian entities suspected of involvement in missile development, the Journal said. "We've been looking for some time at options for additional actions related to Iran's ballistic missile program based on our continued concerns about its activities, including the October 10th launch," an Obama administration official said. "We are considering various aspects related to additional designations, as well as evolving diplomatic work that is consistent with our national security interests," the official said, on condition of anonymity.
U.S. officials have said the Treasury Department retains a right under July's landmark nuclear agreement between Iran and six world powers, including Washington, to blacklist Iranian entities suspected of involvement in missile development, the Journal said.
"We've been looking for some time at options for additional actions related to Iran's ballistic missile program based on our continued concerns about its activities, including the October 10th launch," an Obama administration official said.
"We are considering various aspects related to additional designations, as well as evolving diplomatic work that is consistent with our national security interests," the official said, on condition of anonymity.
What was the Iranian response to the suggestion of additional sanctions?
For heaven's sake, the Obama administration just lifted the sanctions today. They did not call for new sanctions to be imposed on Iran. Hillary did. Parent
What exactly do the words "violating the nuclear accord" mean to you?
Does that statement say that it would jeopardize an agreement on missiles?
Did Obama or anyone else in his current administration actually call for additional sanctions back in December? Did Obama or anyone in his administration ask Congress to impose these "potential sanctions" on Iran anytime since December? How about last week, yesterday or today?
I get it. Hillary's supporters are ok with her tough talk and her call for more U,S, involvement in the M.E. The cheers are reverberating through the thread. Just perfect.
Others not so much. It is one of the reasons she lost in 2008 and it is one of the reasons many Dems and independents don't want to vote for her now. Parent
Of course Iranian leaders oppose the sanctions. Nonetheless, these sanctions are for the ballistic missile program, not the nuclear program. Parent
The U.S. has just imposed the sanctions HRC called for. Parent
In diplo-speak "looking at options for additional actions" is a fairly stern official statement certainly compared to the weaker gravity field of "private citizen" Clinton.
The more I think about it, this is Hillary being a team player. There is no short term political gain for her here, she is sweating bullets in Iowa and NH and you got to concede that she already has the "hawk" vote sewed up, she has zero to gain.
Of course the optics here are great later down the road and especially in the general but if her calculations were purely political why not wait to after NH? Just to rain on the Obama/Kerry parade? I think not.
There will be no blowback on this on the diplomatic front. When Hillary calls for sanctions the Supreme Leader hears nothing over the sheer volume of the bomb,bomb,bomb..bomb,bomb Iran crowd crowd. Meanwhile Kerry is telling Rouhani, look dude the very best you can do after us is Hillary"sanctions Queen" Clinton(I'm guessing the Iranians have yet to feel the Bern)deal now or take your chances. Good cop, bad cop or psycho roid-rage cop, if you will. Parent
the supreme leader is a hot headed extremist(analogous to the GOP here),
Your equivalency statement is quite nasty, given that the Iranian leader believes in killing gays, stoning women, honor killing of women and other such crimes.
The real comparison is between the Iranian killer who attacks attacks attacks and a Democrat president who runs runs runs to the rear so he can "lead." Parent
Your personal reflections are welcome. Parent
The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones. - William Shakespeare
Shall we revisit Carter's midwifing the Iranian regime??? Parent
Don't tell me: the Left utilized un-christian occult mind control tactics to cloud the Gipper's mind. Parent
Probably because he was preoccupied by the Soviets??
20 20 hindsight gives us all kinds of questions.
Why didn't we stop and let the Soviets take Berlin?
Why didn't we nuke Red China when they entered the war in Korea?
Why didn't we bomb Hanoi???
Books and articles have been written on these and many others but the base answer is always the same.
Politics. And depending on which side you're on you agree or disagree with what happened, Parent
Cherry picking history again I see. Parent
And the reason was to deny the Soviets a warm water port that would allow them to easily close off the west's supply of oil.
Got any more soft balls that an old can hit out of the park??? Parent
It's common knowledge by now that the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company asked the UK, MI-6 and CIA to intervene in the Iranian government's plan to nationalize oil fields.
Cut the red-baiting bullsh*t for five minutes and go educate yourself. Parent
Sure, why not just nuke everyone? China, Iran, Vietnam..ourselves..
Let Jesus sort out the good ones from the bad ones.
And bring on the Rapture. Parent
I said "equivalency statement" for a reason,
A person or thing that is equal to or corresponds with another in value, amount, function, meaning, etc.
Now try and muddy the water because I dared to note the crimes of Obama's and Kerry's buddy. Parent
a·nal·o·gous comparable in certain respects, typically in a way that makes clearer the nature of the things compared.
I was commenting on his claiming an equivalency.
Equivalency - A person or thing that is equal to or corresponds with another in value, amount, function, meaning, etc.
I made no comment about his use of the word analogous.
He was clarifying.
I was noting the claim.
Hope this helps. Parent
Please Jim, for once in your life admit that you were mistaken and not drag another thread down the rat hole(metaphorically speaking of course).
Hmm, maybe if I pump helium into the shell? Parent
He was making a claim of equivalency.
Two words. Two different meanings.
And you are the one dragging things down. Parent
She seems to think that positioning herself to the right of Obama is the way to go.
To whom is she appealing with this ? She certainly seems to be taking a lot for granted.
Once in a great while, as in this instance, I am inclined to be appreciative of the use of diplomatic skill by the administration. Parent
Honestly, I think she just lost the primaries. And frankly, I would find it harder to support a so-called Democrat spouting this idea. The smell of desperation is engulfing her campaign, and you know what they say about desperate people doing desperate things.
On the other hand, maybe she's in a good position to become the GOP nominee's running mate? She sure is sounding like a Republican. Parent
I'm not worried about this one. Parent
...there was something else, something that wasn't reported on the seizure affidavit, the complaint, or any of the documents that followed. To track Rigmaiden down, the investigators had used a secret device, one that allowed them to pinpoint their target with far more accuracy than Verizon could. They called it a cell-site simulator, or by its trade name, Stingray. Neither term was found in the court order that authorized its use. The device had to be kept secret, even from the courts. The Stingray had worked perfectly. Agents traced the suspect's AirCard back to his apartment and now had more than enough evidence for a conviction. But in the years that followed, that open-and-shut case would turn into something far more complex. Working from prison, Rigmaiden would unravel decades of secrecy, becoming the world's foremost authority on the device that sent him to jail. By the time he was finished, a covert surveillance device and the system that kept it secret would be exposed to the public for the very first time.
The Stingray had worked perfectly. Agents traced the suspect's AirCard back to his apartment and now had more than enough evidence for a conviction. But in the years that followed, that open-and-shut case would turn into something far more complex. Working from prison, Rigmaiden would unravel decades of secrecy, becoming the world's foremost authority on the device that sent him to jail. By the time he was finished, a covert surveillance device and the system that kept it secret would be exposed to the public for the very first time.
They better figure it out soon. Parent
I think I'll send a bag to some people I know.
;-)
I can't believe how much you like to spike the ball over injustice. I wasn't in the court, but it is hard to understand how a dead man is responsible for his own death. If there is no possibility of his death being accidental, who killed him?
Should we be looking for the "real killer?" Parent
The officers, on the other hand, probably won't have as many options. Some might get convicted until their sentences are overturned on appeal. Parent
Should have given him immunity for his testimony, but now, his testimony I would think is useless anyway, as the prosecution repeatedly said he was lying in his own trial.
I have no clue what the prosecutions next steps are going forward. I think they might have overcharged, to great public appeal, but now have created a very high legal bar they must meet. Parent
At one point during "Making a Murderer", I thought this was a great love story that the powers that be were doing everything they could to ruin. Now, I wonder if it's another situation of a scorned woman seeking revenge. Jodi Stachowski, doesn't really have any new evidence to shed light on the case, in fact some of what she has to say now, contradicts what she said earlier.
The Rams played in Southern California for 48 years before late owner Georgia Frontiere abruptly moved the team to St. Louis after the 1994 season. They are the face and symbol of NFL football in L.A., in a way that neither the Raiders nor the Chargers can ever hope to replicate or emulate.
Raiders owner Mark Davis and Chargers owner Gus Spanos should instead make nice, by seeking to repair the once-special relationships their teams formerly enjoyed with their loyal fans in Oakland and San Diego, respectively.
Both franchises thrived very well in those markets for decades. Davis, Spanos and the NFL shouldn't now blame those cities for the conscious choices which they themselves have made regarding the conduct of their business.
As Oakland Mayor Libby Schaaf told the NFL last month, her door is open and she is willing to work with Davis, but her city cannot afford to foot the bill for a new Raiders stadium when they're still paying off the bonds for the expensive renovations to the Coliseum that the team demanded upon their return 20 years ago.
Aloha.
So it muddies things up ... I'm talking more about that Maddow interview cause I watched it again last night and there's this weird question at the end ... Maddow essentially asks "can Clinton choose a female running mate?" and of course the answer is "yes," and that's what Clinton said almost making it not just a yes but a hell yes you betcha.
But the way Maddow framed the question felt really bizarre to me Maddow was actually arguing in a pretty straight forward way that Hillary's campaign was setting back the women's movement by making it impossible for a woman to be picked for vice president.
Now not to get myself in trouble here because I will be the first to point out the vast differences between discrimination against women and discrimination against African Americans (women dont get murdered by police on city streets just for being women), but I can't imagine anyone baiting the race issue with candidate Obama back in the day without starting at least a minor kerfuffle ..
Weird question if you ask me... Coulda asked about a real policy... Chose not to.
here it says being a woman 8% would not vote for them, 7% would not vote for someone who is Jewish, 40% would not vote for an atheist and 50% would not vote for a socialist. Parent
Like to see that answer. Parent
But ask them if they saw how Maddows question had a rather insidious implication or ask them if they notice every time Clinton goes on offense the media calls it a "vile and vicious" attack, they won't notice any of that and then poof the woman candidate just happens to be that one woman candidate they don't like but they'll vote for a woman next time.
Cause yeah we do want a woman president one day. Parent
http://tinyurl.com/h4ua44w
"No matter how you get there," Clinton replied.
This statement almost certainly isn't true. It's easy to imagine awful ways to achieve universal health care -- financed through a tax on the poorest Americans, for instance, or built atop regulations that stifle medical innovation. A thoughtful, serious argument about why single-payer isn't the best path forward would have won Clinton more fans than this kind of obvious pandering.
Clinton went on to reprise her argument that the real problem with Sanders's plan is that it would try to get states to administer the health care programs, though, again, she never mentions the federal fallback in the scenario where states refuse to build out their plans.
The result is that Clinton argued in one breath against Sanderscare, which works like a supercharged version of Obamacare, and then in the next breath called Obamacare "one of the signature accomplishments, not just of this president but of the Democratic Party," and said she was running to defend it.
All this, though, is Clinton's attempt to obscure the big picture: Sanders supports a single-payer health care system, and she doesn't. The technical arguments she's making about past legislation he's proposed could all be addressed if the bills moved forward. That's not the real disagreement between Clinton and Sanders. The real disagreement is he thinks we should move forward on single-payer, and she doesn't.
Ezra is really out of it on this one. Parent
Basically, Hillary doesn't fully trust primary voters...
linton's view is that anyone who actually cares about insuring the uninsured needs to grapple with the power of the status quo -- and Sanders hasn't come close. He hasn't even released a real plan, which, quite fairly, drives Clinton nuts. "The devil's in the details when it comes to health care," she told Rachel Maddow.
Obamacare, meanwhile, rests on shaky ground. Barely 60 percent of states have even accepted the Medicaid expansion. And one of the prime arguments against Obamacare is that, modest as it was, it still canceled some insurance plans. For Sanders to crash into this debate with a vague proposal to cancel many, many, many more is to imperil the fragile gains that have already been made.
But Clinton doesn't trust Democratic primary voters to listen to that argument. Pragmatism might win in policymaking, she believes, but inspirational fantasies win primaries. So her campaign has, instead, tried out a series of attacks on Sanders meant to confuse primary voters about where the two candidates actually stand. Parent
Her handling of it is not doing her any good. I understand that her inner pragmatist would not allow it, but maybe she should have just smiled and agreed with him about it. Parent
Instead she and Chelsea went on the attack distorting information and using WSJ cost information that was debunked back in December by the very person who the Journal cited as the source of the information contained in their article. A couple of days after the WJS piece, Dr. Gerald Friedman published an Open Letter to the WSJ debunking what in his own worlds was a "hit piece."
Evidently quite a few Democratic pundits and bloggers read Dr. Friedman's "Open Letter" since when HRC first went after Sanders about the $15 trillion dollar cost in a debate, a few mentioned that the number she was using had been debunked a while back. Instead of changing course, Chelsea and the Hillary doubled down on their attacks on single payer distorting information and making false claims.
Do you realize that in the last few days, influencial Democratic pundits, bloggers and fact checks have come out and said that the Clintons were making claims that they knew were false. Some thought it was shameful or desperate and most thought it was stupid. Parent
We're discussing it. Sanders is discussing it.
Eventually, the American people are going to begin to wonder why we can't have what so many other countries have.
Actually, thanks to Sanders and, I have to say, Trump, people are beginning to wonder about it out loud. Parent
I continue to be amazed at how unabashedly you make these declaratory statements that bear no relationship to reality. Parent
There are no "high taxes" for the middle class in Sanders' plan.
And what you know about Vermont's efforts and experience would fit on the head of a pin...with room to spare.
You are just a fount of deliberate misinformation. Parent
Sanders proposes to expand Medicare, the health safety net that covers those over 65, to all Americans. He hasn't released a full plan yet, but he points to previous legislation he's introduced, namely a 2013 bill for a single-payer Medicare-for-all system, as his general gameplan. To pay for it, Sanders would impose broad-based taxes: a 6.7 percent payroll tax on employers and a 2.2 percent tax on individual incomes under $200,000 or joint incomes under $250,000. (Progressively higher rates for higher-income earners are described in his 2013 bill.) Sanders' campaign says his Medicare-for-all plan would save the average American family $3,855 to $5,173 in annual health care costs. Instead of an insurance premium, a family making $50,000 -- roughly the median family income -- would only pay $1,100 in health care income taxes. That's $3,855 less than what it would pay out-of-pocket for the average premium ($4,955, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation) and $5,173 less if a deductible ($1,318, for individual coverage) is factored in. As for employers, the 6.7 percent payroll tax means employers would put up $3,350 for family coverage. That's also thousands less than the average employer premium contribution of $12,591.
To pay for it, Sanders would impose broad-based taxes: a 6.7 percent payroll tax on employers and a 2.2 percent tax on individual incomes under $200,000 or joint incomes under $250,000. (Progressively higher rates for higher-income earners are described in his 2013 bill.)
Sanders' campaign says his Medicare-for-all plan would save the average American family $3,855 to $5,173 in annual health care costs.
Instead of an insurance premium, a family making $50,000 -- roughly the median family income -- would only pay $1,100 in health care income taxes. That's $3,855 less than what it would pay out-of-pocket for the average premium ($4,955, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation) and $5,173 less if a deductible ($1,318, for individual coverage) is factored in.
As for employers, the 6.7 percent payroll tax means employers would put up $3,350 for family coverage. That's also thousands less than the average employer premium contribution of $12,591.
What's consistently and endlessly aggravating is that this is information that is readily and easily available to you, but you choose to pluck your "facts"...from where, exactly?
Good God, Georgia - you clearly have an abundance of time to be online; is there any chance you will ever devote a few minutes to engage in something other than virtual gossip? Parent
Hillary scores poorly in the category of trustworthiness. The concenus on the reporting of the attacks by Chelsea and Hillary on Sanders regarding his health care plan is that they knowing distorted information to present a false and misleading picture of what he is proposing.
She misread the primary voters in 2008 and there is a good possibility that she is misreading them this time around as well. Primary voters already think she is untrustworthy. Giving them more proof that their accessment is accurate might not be an indication of great understanding of primary voters.
BTW, since I'm really sick of this refrain that Sanders does not understand the process of getting stuff through, here is another fact for you to ignore. Sanders recently marshalled a very extensive veterans bill through the process and got it signed into law in an adverse environment. Parent
One version of the attack accuses Sanders of raising taxes on middle-class Americans. "There is no way that can be paid for without raising taxes on the middle class," Clinton said in Iowa. "The arithmetic just doesn't add up." Here, Clinton is neglecting to mention that those taxes would replace the insurance premiums people are already paying, and would likely be lower than the insurance premiums people are already paying. If single-payer is cheaper than the current health care system -- and most experts believe it would be -- then the net result would be less spending. Clinton knows all this perfectly well... Link
Here, Clinton is neglecting to mention that those taxes would replace the insurance premiums people are already paying, and would likely be lower than the insurance premiums people are already paying. If single-payer is cheaper than the current health care system -- and most experts believe it would be -- then the net result would be less spending.
Clinton knows all this perfectly well...
Link
The next version of Clinton's attack criticizes Sanders for a past single-payer plan he sponsored that would rely partly on state contributions for funding. "[Sanders] wants to roll Medicare, Medicaid, the Children's Health Insurance Program, the Affordable Care Act program, and private health insurance into a national system and turn it over to the states to administer," Clinton said, warning that could be "a big problem" if Republican governors refuse to pay their share. Here, again, Clinton knows better. Medicaid, the Children's Health Insurance Program -- which she helped create -- and Obamacare are already administered by the states and already rely on state funding. Sanders's plan would reduce the share of contributions states are responsible for and provide a federal fallback that doesn't currently exist if states refuse to participate in those programs.
"[Sanders] wants to roll Medicare, Medicaid, the Children's Health Insurance Program, the Affordable Care Act program, and private health insurance into a national system and turn it over to the states to administer," Clinton said, warning that could be "a big problem" if Republican governors refuse to pay their share.
Here, again, Clinton knows better. Medicaid, the Children's Health Insurance Program -- which she helped create -- and Obamacare are already administered by the states and already rely on state funding. Sanders's plan would reduce the share of contributions states are responsible for and provide a federal fallback that doesn't currently exist if states refuse to participate in those programs.
Also mentioned is the fact that under Obamacare's private health insurance system millions of people aren't covered. Sanders' plan would lead to more Americans with health insurance. Parent
A third version of the attack was handed to Chelsea Clinton to launch. "Senator Sanders wants to dismantle Obamacare, dismantle the CHIP program, dismantle Medicare, and dismantle private insurance," she said. "I worry if we give Republicans Democratic permission to do that, we'll go back to an era -- before we had the Affordable Care Act -- that would strip millions and millions and millions of people off their health insurance." Here, the disingenuousness becomes farce. The idea that folding a patchwork of smaller programs into a single universal program represents "dismantling" those programs -- much less giving Republicans permission to dismantle those programs -- flies in the face of basically every Democratic attempt to expand social insurance ever. The 1994 Clinton health care plan, to name just one example, "dismantled" virtually every existing insurance arrangement in the country in order to create a single, unified structure that could cover more people.
Here, the disingenuousness becomes farce. The idea that folding a patchwork of smaller programs into a single universal program represents "dismantling" those programs -- much less giving Republicans permission to dismantle those programs -- flies in the face of basically every Democratic attempt to expand social insurance ever. The 1994 Clinton health care plan, to name just one example, "dismantled" virtually every existing insurance arrangement in the country in order to create a single, unified structure that could cover more people.
Please go back and look at the last public option that was being discussed before it was negotiated away in a back room deal. It was a joke. It was a program that was intentionally designed to fail. Actually, the insurance industry should have paid big money for the last configuration of the public option to be implemented. After it very quickly failed, they and certain members of Congress could say, see we tried but it never was a good idea to begin - buy more private insurance.
There is no way I would support that. Parent
I really think that is how we are going to get to single payer eventually. Parent
IMO the biggest mistake single payer advocates made when the discussions began on reforming health care was to let a public option become the topic of discussion at the beginning of the process rather than sticking with the demand for a single payer system. Once they conceded ground to the "public option" they and we lost any chance of getting anything that would work. It was soon pretty predictable that any "public option" that came out of the process would be really bad and would be be a poison pill for single payer and not a road to it.
I am saying this not because I can't envision a process that could be a road to single payer but because I believe that there is no road there if we once again start a discussion of a public option at this point in time.
We have an advocate for a single payer system now. He is out there drawing huge crowds and selling the only way IMO we will get universal affordable health care. I don't want Sanders to advocate for anything else. The time to discuss anything else is not now. At this point in time, I refuse to go that route. It is time for Sanders and other advocates to sell single payer. We may not get it this time around but the seeds are being sown as they have never been sown before. Parent
I'm glad Sanders is sticking to single payer, my suggestion was that when he talks about how he is going to implement it he provides some non-scary details about the transition to it. Parent
I do think Sanders needs to flesh out more details on his plan and how it would be rolled out. If I had my druthers, both candidates would put out the costs of their proposals, and how they plan to make their health care system universal etc. around the same time so that a fair comparison could be done. Probably won't happen but that is what I would like. Parent
IMO both candidates need to flesh out their plans and provide more detailed information. I would like to see more cost info from Hillary as well. Parent
I would agree that Mrs. Clinton and Chelsea have overblown what I believe the Sanders idea to be: re-organize existing health services into a new program. Not eliminate any health services, except the dismantlement of private insurance. And, there will be a reorganization of costs,essentially, among taxes, wages/salaries previously provided in lieu of health coverage, and premiums.
But, this dream begs for details so as to be a viable campaign promise. Yes, not on day one Sanders says, but a big order even for day 1408.
The plan does not sound to me like Medicare for All, not with the states involved and even a federal backup. The earlier Sanders' proposals were prior to NFIAB v Sebelius (2012) that struck down the Medicaid expansion that "coerced" states to participate or lose all Medicaid funding. And, that was with 100% federal funding to states (ending up in 2020 with 90% funding).
Mrs. Clinton may have gone too far, but Senator Sanders may be misrepresenting reality and giving false hope. That, too, is going too far. Parent
I am just reading reading all this stuff to better understand the internecine warfare!!! Parent
No offense.
Archival question, has Klien ever said anything positive about anything related to Hillary? Ever? Parent
Am not to familiar with Ezra, other than that he is a progressive's progressive, and of the age where he might be attuned to a new Democratic leadership. So he might not have many pro Hillary positions. Parent
I guess it's a case of if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Parent
Really thought Seattle would stand toe to toe with them,
Ouch!
Not feeling good about my late game pick either, especially with Big Ben hurting Parent
That being said Cruz has suddenly accumulated a load of baggage he wasn't carrying 2 weeks ago. Parent
Cousin Isobel is probably on the right side of history, but I bet the Dowager Countess gets in the best zingers.
First aired in 1977, The Godfather Epic is a TV special with both The Godfather and The Godfather Part II cut into chronological order, but the epic also includes extra footage cut from the originals. Because you didn't want to get anything done today anyway, right?