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Democrats Debate

Last Democratic debate tonight before the Iowa caucuses and New Hampshire primary.

Here's a place for your thoughts. Mine are expressed by the photo.

Bump and Update: Since when did "gun control" become "gun safety legislation?". That's what O'Malley called it. [More...]

Hillary got the first shot at our racially discriminatory justice system. Bernie, going second, sounded redundant to me, and I laughed when he dragged a reference to Wall St. into his rant.

Hillary answered the question on the "deadly heroin epidemic" without calling for more jail. She called for cops to carry Narcan, the antidote to heroin and opiate overdoses. She said it must not be treated as a crime, but a health issue, and users should be diverted into treatment. She said her plan calls for $1 billion in expenditures to re-orient and change the direction of our response to the drug problem.

Bernie says he "agrees with all that" but adds the pharmaceutical companies and drug companies should be held accountable. But the question was about the deadly heroin epidemic -- No pharmaceutical or drug companies make or sell heroin. They make opiate pills that are legitimately needed for pain. Why should they be accountable for heroin deaths or even abuse of opiates? They don't prescribe them, they manufacture them. Heroin use has increased because of the restrictions on opiates. It's the federal government that over-criminalizes the use of opiates, resulting in limiting their availability which leads people to use heroin in their stead. The pharmaceutical companies manufacture opiates, not heroin, and would love to sell more opiates. Why should they be held accountable for heroin addiction?

O'Malley said as Mayor in 1999 (or later as Governor, he ended incarceration for simple marijuana possession and was the first Governor south of the Mason Dixon Line to repeal the death penalty.

I thought Hillary decimated Bernie on health care with her passionate defense of Obama care. Andrea Mitchell says Bernie released a new Medicare for All single payor program 2 hours before the debate. Bernie interrupts Andrea Mitchell while she's asking a question. That's about the angriest I can recall seeing Hillary. Bernie comes back with England, France, and Medicare for all. (No mention of Norway this time.) O'Malley touts an all-payor system where doctors get paid for keeping people out of the hospital. That strikes me as a bad plan -- what doctor is going to take on seriously ill patients that need hospitalization if it means less pay? (Maybe that's not what he meant, but that's what I heard.)

Bernie: We can't fix the system because of Wall St and the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. (Is anything not their fault?) Congress is owned by "big money" and refuses to do what the people want it to do. How will Bernie, as President, change how Congress acts? He doesn't say.

Hillary basically says he's dreaming. She reminds us that Democrats couldn't get "the public option" (where people could buy into Medicare) passed. What got passed was the Affordable Care Act. Why start all over, let's make it better.

Bernie, hoarse now, touts his campaign contributions and support for his campaign by young people. The debate airs a question from a young you tuber with 5 million followers. He wants to know how the candidates will appeal to his generation. Someone should ask him why do young people historically have such a low voter turnout, despite all the Rock the Vote and similar efforts? What good does Bernie's 2:1 support among youth do him if they don't turn out to vote? If they didn't turn out in great numbers for Obama who glorified hope and change, why will they turn out for grandpa?

Bernie to O'Malley: A handful of billionaires control the economic and political life of this country. We need a political revolution.

Hillary recites Bernie's record of attacks on Obama. He laughs while she's speaking and then denies it.

O'Malley says he would be tough on Wall St. He says he respects Hillary and then attacks her for her relationship with Wall St. Hillary responds he has raised money from Wall St. She repeatedly defends "Dodd Frank."

I don't think Bernie is as liberal as he claims to be. On the one hand, he says our criminal justice system relies too heavily on incarceration (even Republicans now agree with that.) But he continually calls for more prosecution of Wall St execs which will result in more people being incarcerated. Calling for more prosecution and incarceration of any group of non-violent offenders is not progressive in my view. We cannot jail ourselves out of our "Wall St" problem. A truly progressive candidate would recognize that we need to stop looking to the criminal justice system to cure every conceivable economic, political and social ill.

They are on climate change now. This part will not distinguish the candidates, they are all on the same page. It's just an opportunity for them to bash Republicans. While Republicans should be bashed on climate change and environmental issues, I don't need to watch a debate to hear this.

Must be time for a bathroom break (Donald, look away.) NBC moderators and Chuck Todd are filling space.

Next up: Iran and maybe ISIS. Not sure I will stick around. I've had enough, particularly of Bernie and his non-stop focus on Wall St, campaign finance and pharmaceutical companies. Will he weave them into his answers on ISIS? (Actually, like climate change, all three agree: No American combat troops. O'Malley goes for political correctness and tells everyone we shouldn't use the term "boots on the ground." It's offensive to our serving military.

Sanders says the fight against ISIS is a fight for the "soul of Islam." He says Muslim countries in the Middle East need to fight ISIS on the ground, with Muslim troops. He quotes the King of Jordan (as he's done in the past. Middle Eastern countries need to "put some skin in the game" and not rely on the U.S. for anything but support. Muslim troops, not American troops, belong on the ground fighting ISIS.

I don't care for Bernie's use of the term "Muslim troops." First, Muslim connotes a religion, not a nationality. I also don't like singling any group out by its religion. Second, some American troops are Muslims. Third, what about Israel? It's in the Middle East. ISIS has declared it a target, shouldn't it be contributing to the fight against ISIS, even though it's not a Muslim country?

How about non-middle eastern countries like the Philippines, Indonesia, and Morocco? Aren't they at closer risk geographically from ISIS than the U.S.? Shouldn't they contribute? India is not a predominantly Muslim country but has ramped up domestic efforts against ISIS. How about the European countries who provide ISIS with the greatest number of foreign fighter recruits? And is Bernie going to suggest we accept Iran (and its Shi'a militias) in the coalition fight just because they are Muslim?

Question: Will Democrats fed-up with the shouting between Hillary and Bernie turn to O'Malley in protest? He certainly was the calmest. In his final comments he referred to immigrants and unfairness to Puerto Rico. He lost points in my view when he endorsed the fight against drug traffickers in Guatemala and Central America. Enough with the war on drugs, here and abroad, it's just a failure.

Hillary refers to Flint Michigan as the topic not addressed at the debate about which she had something to say.

Bernie ignores the question (which was to raise issues not yet raised) and for the billionth time, rails against Wall St.

Summary: Bernie Sanders comes off as a one trick pony. All he cares about is Wall St, campaign finance and fighting billionaires. Despite his calls for revolution, he's no Che Guevara. (I might support him if he was.) I'm sure there's a role for him somewhere, but I just don't think it's as President. Hillary strikes me as the logical choice. I also think she is the only one of the three with a chance of winning the election in November. This is about winning, isn't it?

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  • Wish the moderators could be (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:02:41 PM EST
    Ray Suarez and...I don't know, is there anyone as good as Ray?

    That said, I'm looking forward to a civil, substantive debate between two professionals.

    Listening to these three candidates, (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:11:55 PM EST
    it's clear they are miles ahead of anyone on the GOP side.

    Commercials? thanks for the public service NBC. (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:27:40 PM EST


    Having insurance is not the same as (5.00 / 5) (#24)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:35:45 PM EST
    having actual care; and what good does having insurance do if you can't afford the care itself?

    This is what really needs to be discussed.

    Ahh...the health care question (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:37:35 PM EST
    I think Bernie's response to Hillary was very good. Hillary sounds so incrementalist-don't rock-the-boat, I know better than you. She's good on repeating talking points. But the meme that Bernie wants to tear it up, as if we're all going to end up with nothing under his plan. Silly.

    Hillary and Bernie are both yelling too much. But she's just sounding plain mean to me.

    And Andrea Mitchell rightly deserved to be cut off in mid rant.

    Oh, those "mean" Women (none / 0) (#159)
    by christinep on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 12:38:01 PM EST
    Even when both, as you say, are "yelling" ... still, must it be those "mean" women?  

    Parent
    O'Malley trying so hard (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:43:55 PM EST
    to land a blow.

    (Vincent Shaheen? Really?)

    5 million followers on YouTube! (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:46:49 PM EST
    He's more popular than OMalley.

    HiIlary defends Dodd Frank (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:58:04 PM EST
    but goes negative on Sanders over Wall Street. She didn't like him pointing out that she makes a lot of speaking fees off them. Hillary deflects on the point to talk more about Dodd Frank.

    Does anyone really believe Wall Street is more afraid of her than Sanders?

    Serious question. Because even O'Malley comes out in favor of Glass Steagall, which Hillary does not.

    When one criticizes, is it (3.00 / 4) (#161)
    by christinep on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 12:43:36 PM EST
    goes negative" or is it the give & take criticism of a big political campaign?  You do seem a bit too sensitive to the push of a campaign (when it comes from the opponent's side.)  That's fine, of course ... but, it is helpful when we can apply the same what-really-counts-as-"going negative"-in a Presidential campaign to your guy as well?  Favorites aside and talking-points aside, it is helpful to be clear-eyed.

    Parent
    Oh, please, if anyone's "sensitive" (none / 0) (#164)
    by shoephone on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 12:58:17 PM EST
    it's Hillary, who visibly bristled and got quite defensive after Sanders pointed out the millions she's made off speeches for her Wall Street benefactors. When he said she'd made $600,000 from Goldman Sachs alone, that really got her mad.

    Let's not make stuff up, Christine, okay? We all watched the debate, we all heard what was said, and saw the expressions on their faces.

    Clinton's Wall Street ties are undeniable and present a problem for her with a lot of voters.

    I thought Clinton did very well during some portions of the debate, but this the Wall Street exchange was not one of them.

    Parent

    As I said (2.33 / 3) (#166)
    by christinep on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:01:59 PM EST
    your words indicate, shoephone, that you are being way too sensitive.  We've all seen campaign action ... the personalized characterizations routine doesn't work too well except for those on the periphery.  

    Parent
    Who loves Obama more? (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:59:10 PM EST
    Seems like a rather desperate argument, trying to make Obama supporters mad.

    I'm sorry, but I just do not believe that anyone who's benefited from Wall Street and the banking industry as much as Clinton has is credible on the issue of holding them accountable.

    Clinton seems unaware of how much Dodd-Frank has already been weakened.

    "Desperate" or "smart" (none / 0) (#162)
    by christinep on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 12:53:18 PM EST
    Among registered Democrats (cf. "registered Democrats" vis-à-vis "independents" in Selzer's recent DMR poll), President Obama remains quite popular and persuasive. That high regard is especially pronounced among Democrats in the key primary state of South Carolina ... where the demographics are quite different than in the two earliest state contests.

    In glancing through quick write-ups about the debate this a.m., I noted the importance placed by some on the debate-timed announcement by former AG Eric Holder that HRC represented the best way to continue the policies of President Obama and that he (Holder) was endorsing her fully.  

    HRC had strategic, pragmatic reasons for the public embrace of Obama's policies.

    Parent

    Oh well, that settles it, I guess (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by shoephone on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:14:47 PM EST
    If Holder's for Hillary, than shouldn't we all be? Considering that after leaving the AG's office, Holder returned to work at his old law firm, Covington & Burling, a firm that is inextricably tied to the "too big to fail" Wall Street banks.

    If we had a more aggressive media, this would be an enormous scandal, more than the decamping of former Obama Administration officials to places like Uber and Amazon. That's because practically no law firm has done more to protect Wall Street executives from the consequences of their criminal activities than Covington & Burling.  Their roster of clients includes every mega-bank in America: JPMorgan Chase, Wells Fargo, Citigroup, Bank of America. Yet Holder has joined several of his ex-employees there, creating a shadow Justice Department and an unquestionable conflict of interest. In fact, given the pathetic fashion in which DoJ limited punishment for those who caused the greatest economic meltdown in 80 years, Holder's new job looks a lot like his old job.

    You could actually make a plausible argument that Covington & Burling bears responsibility for the Great Recession: In the late 1990s, Covington lawyers drafted the legal justification for MERS, the private electronic database that facilitated mortgage-backed securities trading. MERS saved banks from having to submit documents and fees with county land recording offices each time they transferred mortgages. So it's unlikely you would have seen mortgage securitization at such a high volume without MERS, and by proxy, without those legal opinions. Of course, securitization drove subprime lending, the housing bubble, its eventual crash and the financial meltdown that followed. Though evidence pointed to MERS' implication in the mass document fraud scandal that infected the foreclosure process, former Covington lawyer Holder never prosecuted them, and now he's back with the old team.

    If Clinton wanted to be seen as independent from Wall Street, she could not have found a worse advocate for a post-debate salute.

    Sheesh.

    Parent

    Holders endorsement (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:19:07 PM EST
    And full embrace of Obama's policies are to solidify Hillarys perceived firewall.......

    African-Americans comprised 55% of the primary electorate in South Carolina and cast 80% of their ballots for Obama, powering him to a landslide victory statewide.

    Clinton is counting on similarly overwhelming black support this time around -- and right now she has it. A CNN poll earlier this week gave her a 50-point lead over Sanders in South Carolina, 70% to 20%. But that massive lead comes entirely from African-Americans, who favor Clinton by a 77-point margin in the state. Among white South Carolinians, she leads by a single point, 48% to 47%.  

    A number of states with large African-American populations will hold primaries and caucuses shortly after South Carolina -- Georgia, Alabama, Arkansas, Texas, Virginia and Tennessee on March 1; Louisiana on March 5; Mississippi on March 8; Florida, Illinois and Ohio on March 15. If Clinton continues to dominate with black voters, it will be difficult, if not impossible, for Sanders to defeat her in states like these.



    Parent
    Here's the question: (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by shoephone on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:22:06 PM EST
    Has Holder historically been a better advocate for African Americans, or for Wall Street?

    Parent
    Lol (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:28:14 PM EST
    That doesn't matter, it is all perception. That is why Hillary gave the full on embrace of Obama's policies in South Carolina. If she wins 70% of the black primary vote down South, as it appears to be trending, The Bern is toast.
    And I do not see a way for The Bern to turn those numbers around.


    Parent
    hmmm, well educated black guy (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by vicndabx on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:47:58 PM EST
    who has a significant role in the US gov't vs. going on a wild goose chase to prove intent to defraud.....?

    I'll take positive example of black leadership vs. waste of tax payer resources.

    The Atty General wouldn't make policy w/o the President proposing first - your critique seems off base IMO.

    Surprise - a lawyer, who after leaving public life goes back to being.....a lawyer.

    Parent

    A lawyer representing (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by shoephone on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 02:03:17 PM EST
    the "too big to fail" banks that caused the problems to begin with.

    Facts matter.

    Parent

    Ahh so it's his choice of client (none / 0) (#187)
    by vicndabx on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 02:17:01 PM EST
    that is the issue.  Not whether any laws were broken or if said laws could be proven to be broken intentionally.

    Yes, facts do matter.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#189)
    by sj on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 02:28:54 PM EST
    Choice of client is a big issue. And that fact matters as well.

    Parent
    "Desperate" or "smart" (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 03:31:07 PM EST
    The polls would suggest the former.

    HRC is losing support, this notion that we, democrats, want Obama Part II for the next 8 years is wrong.

    I think he's been good, but it's not 2008, we are not on brink of economic disaster and bogged down in an unwinnable war.  I think it's extremely unwise for Clinton and you to believe more of the same is how to play this election just because Obama is popular.

    Parent

    Clinton's efforts to align herself with (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by Anne on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 04:02:09 PM EST
    Obama are about giving people a comfort level with a known quantity - and I get that - but I'm not sure it's necessarily the best approach.  She thinks framing a Clinton presidency as the equivalent of Obama's third term is great - and for those who really like Obama and would have him for another 4 years if they could, it is.  It would certainly be better by far than anything the GOP has to offer.

    But there are those of us who definitely do not want a Republican in the WH, but are looking for someone who isn't necessarily just going to be more of the same.

    And I'm sorry, but I don't take much comfort in Holder's endorsement; he could have shaped a Justice department committed to holding accountable the banksters and Wall Street crowd that nearly brought the country to its economic knees, but he didn't, and his immediate return to representing the banking and securities industry upon his departure from public service probably tells you why.  That and the important fact that such a large number of people brought in by Obama came right from Wall Street.

    I don't know that many people find it reassuring to know that Clinton is viewed as the best choice to continue the Obama policies in that particular arena.

    Maybe this all works in South Carolina, but does it necessarily work in all 50 states?


    Parent

    I really wish (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:01:11 PM EST
    that I didn't have to be aware of matters of war and peace when listening to these three.

    Probably any one of the three would help us domestically.

    But if we stay in these wars, we won't be able to do anything for anyone.

    So, a lot of this seems like hot air to me.

    I'm listening though.

    I may not like the way Clinton is going (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:02:17 PM EST
    after Sanders - I think she's being just a tad disingenuous - but if nothing else, it shows how hard she'd fight against the GOP.

    Good for you for understanding (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by MKS on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:03:26 PM EST
    a central point about winning the Presidency.....

    Parent
    I was thinking exactly the same thing (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:04:22 PM EST
    No one shouts her down.  And they are trying.

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#67)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:16:51 PM EST
    she's being a tad disingenuous also.

    Parent
    Mrs. Greenspan is a jr. high "mean girl" (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:03:13 PM EST
    All she has is gotcha journalism.

    Is that you Sarah? (2.00 / 1) (#61)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:13:03 PM EST
    And she just proved it again (none / 0) (#91)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:46:35 PM EST
    with her question to Sanders about Bill's past marital behavior towards Hillary. It was obvious by the smile on Hillary's face that she liked Sanders' answer to Greenspan.

    Parent
    I have concerns about Hillary's 3-point plan (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:21:38 PM EST
    for Syria. "Supporting Iraqi forces on the ground" has, so far, not worked out well. The Iraqi fighters have mostly fled.

    This is (none / 0) (#75)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:31:59 PM EST
    where my eyes begin to glaze over... and my desire to change the channel begins to bloom.

    I think I relate more to the way that Sanders expresses himself regarding foreign policy.

    But neither of them give me much confidence that they would end our involvement in these civil wars.
    And without an end to our endless involvement, nothing much is going to happen domestically.
    No free tuition. No medicare for all. Nada.

    Parent

    Boots on the ground (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:23:27 PM EST
    Was Martins best moment so far

    O'Malley hitting the mark on privacy (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:32:35 PM EST


    I missed the beginning (none / 0) (#77)
    by sj on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:33:38 PM EST
    But so far he has had two really good moments.

    Parent
    I don't mind O'Malley's presence... (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by magster on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:40:48 PM EST
    ... even though he has no chance. He's made some good points.

    He has (none / 0) (#86)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:42:59 PM EST
    Actually

    Parent
    It's hard (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:57:37 PM EST
    to believe that you referred to Sanders as "grandpa".

    Especially since Clinton is a grandma... (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:00:08 PM EST
    funny how that doesn't seem to be a problem, huh?

    Parent
    That's true (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by sj on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:00:13 PM EST
    On the other hand, my grandpas were both very wise.

    Parent
    that's what he strikes me as (none / 0) (#112)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:48:09 PM EST
    And I think it's a valid issue that he's unlikely to be a two term president. He leaves the Dems more vulnerable in 2020 if he wins. Hillary could easily do two terms.

    Parent
    Well, (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 11:10:04 PM EST
    I think one term by a Sanders would be worth it.
    But I don't think his age is a valid issue.

    As Anne points out, Hillary is a grandma. You wanna call her that? Let's see what grandma has to say?

    Sanders age may well be a plus.
    It can equate to emotional maturity.

    I don't think Sanders is driven by any unrequited drives - the sort of which can lead us to these ugly confrontations and wars. He doesn't need to prove himself to an admiring bog. (Apologies to Emily Dickenson.)

    Parent

    My major problem with Bernie (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Coral on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 08:16:38 AM EST
    Is that even if he miraculously won the presidency, how is he going to get even a tiny fraction of what he is proposing through Congress?

    He's attacking Wall Street, but realistically, who is funding the campaigns of Congress, including Democrats?

    FDR was able to get New Deal through, and you'd have to have political conditions similar to the early 1930s in order to get a single-payer program through Congress that Bernie has proposed (I read the summary issued yesterday).

    Yes it would be great if that could happen. It would also be great if we could withdraw all our troops worldwide without leaving a vacuum of power.

    Clinton is actually likely to make some positive advances in health care by tweaking Obamacare. And, say what you will, she is experienced in foreign policy and understands what she is dealing with when she faces the military establishment. I can't imagine Sanders or O'Malley being able to lead a credible foreign policy.

    Parent

    My major concern with (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 10:05:16 AM EST
    Hillary is the same, She is proposing tax increases - the Republicans oppose tax increases and will not approve them.

    She admits that the ACA as it exists today is too expensive for too many people and she has proposed improvements. New legislation would be required . How is she going to get the required legislation? The Republicans do not want to improve ACA. They want to repeal it. She, like Sanders, says she wants to negotiate drug prices. How will she be able to accomplish this when Sanders cannot?

    Her tweaks will need funding and legislative approval. How will she get her legislation through a Republican house? The idea that the Republican are going to give her a win in health care is as likely as them giving Sanders a win.

    You are right, Wall Street funds her campaign and others in Congress. I think you are right HRC will not do a lot that will upset them.

    Some of her foreign policy experience involves her time as SOS where she consistently advised more U.S. involvement in like Libya and Syrian when others were advising more restraint.

    Parent

    Loved the debate tonight.... (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by magster on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 12:28:35 AM EST
    The "fireworks" between Clinton and Sanders was intelligent and interesting. It kind of boils down to revolution and incrementalism and which is more effective. While Clinton's approach seems more realistic and she has the experience/cynicism/relationships to be an effective incremenalist, I appreciate that Sanders has moved the goalpoasts left and made things like universal health care and $15 min. wage acceptable policy positions.

    Team Dem. I'll vote for whoever.

    I especially appreciated how Bernie (none / 0) (#130)
    by Kmkmiller on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 02:36:56 AM EST
    made holding gun manufacturers accountable an acceptable policy position too.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#142)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 08:02:10 AM EST
    Thankfully the Clinton campaign has forced Sanders to the left on this.

    Parent
    Obamacare solution for drug problem (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 09:14:18 AM EST
    Hillary answered the question on the "deadly heroin epidemic" without calling for more jail. She called for cops to carry Narcan, the antidote to heroin and opiate overdoses. She said it must not be treated as a crime,

    Just as Obamacare hasn't fixed the healthcare problem this doesn't fix the drug problem.

    Just one time I'd like to hear a politician say..."We must reform our drug laws."

    Okay, for the first (none / 0) (#181)
    by sj on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:47:57 PM EST
    time this year, I'm agreeing* with you :)

    Last year that happened, what? Three times? Let's see if we can go for four this year.

    ----------
    * Mostly agreeing. I'm ignoring the barb.

    Parent

    Wow the earth moved (none / 0) (#186)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 02:16:09 PM EST
    At first I thought it was a fracking induced earthquake from Oklahoma.

    ;-)

    Thinking that the legal system will reform drug laws is like thinking the medical industry will institute a single payer health care program.

    Too much money lost.

    It is amazing to me that Democrats don't understand that these two issues touch almost every person in "fly over land" in negative ways. Yet they run away from proposing solutions and concentrate on "gun safety;" an issue that unites the middle class against them.

    Parent

    Jeralyn (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:25:02 PM EST
    you make a really good point. I mean if the criminal justice system did not solve the drug problem then I can't see it handling the problems on Wall Street either. I mean it would probably be even less effective since I'm sure they are going to to a country club prison.

    I think the idea of country club prisons (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jan 19, 2016 at 12:50:48 AM EST
    is a myth. No federal prison is a country club, even federal prison camps. There may be no bars but they control every aspect of your life including your communications and visits with the outside world. You have no privacy rights. The food is mostly terrible. And if for any reason you have to transfer to another place (to fulfill your cooperation deal and testify or for any other reason) you are likely to travel by slow boat through JPATS, spending a week or more in an admistrative detention or transfer facility like Reno in Oklahoma, where you can't make calls, are basically in solitary and don't even get daily showers.

    Prison is prison. Some are worse than others. None come close to freedom. Even probation is no walk in the park.

    I've also removied some comments with (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jan 19, 2016 at 01:07:23 AM EST
    questionable links to inflammatory articles with personal attacks on Che Guevara. His wikipedia entry with lots of links is here.

    My point was merely Sanders calls for political revolution but he's no revolutionary.

    We're over 200 comments, this thread is closed, there's a new one up of Sanders, Hillary, and the debate.

    Okay, Bernie, how (3.50 / 2) (#32)
    by MKS on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:46:30 PM EST
    do you get from here to there?

    I am sure the Republicans would agree with Bernie to repeal ACA.....And we would get halfway across the river without a place to land.

    Sanders (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:49:51 PM EST
    did not say he wanted to repeal ACA.

    Parent
    Bernie's not calling for ACA repeal; (4.00 / 3) (#42)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:55:30 PM EST
    try to keep up.

    Parent
    Try not to be snide (3.50 / 2) (#48)
    by MKS on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:01:03 PM EST
    Oh, you're sorry you misspoke? (2.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:05:09 PM EST
    I must have missed that part.

    It's not that hard to accurately reflect what Sanders is saying, so I rather think it was more snide of you to have not done so than it was for me to suggest you keep up.

    Parent

    I have noticed (3.50 / 2) (#71)
    by MKS on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:22:34 PM EST
    that you have great difficulty discussing Bernie without becoming insulting and abusive....

    Not just here but in other threads as well.

    Why not just make your points and have a discussion?  Do you really need to insult other posters?  It does take away from your points....

    Parent

    I do not have any difficulty discussing (2.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:29:07 PM EST
    the race with people who do so honestly; I do have a problem with people who don't accurately represent the facts, who don't bother to do any research on the claims they throw around, who never read the links others provide in support of their positions.

    Maybe you would prefer that I hadn't pointed out the error of the comment you made, but I can't see the point in letting such a misstatement stand - especially when it was so easy for you not to have made that mistake in the first place.

    Parent

    Still with the insults?? (none / 0) (#78)
    by MKS on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:35:18 PM EST
    If you think my position wrong, you could have simply said that--without the insult--as one other poster did.  

    But you appear incapable of disagreeing without insults....

    Parent

    Can't help yourself? (2.00 / 1) (#65)
    by MKS on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:14:39 PM EST
    Do you have a link (none / 0) (#141)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 07:38:06 AM EST
    to a detailed plan by HRC on how she plans to achieve universal health care using the ACA as her base? Also of interest are the actual detailed costs of the improvements she has identified to improve ACA and how she plans to pay for these enhancements and tax credits?

    Parent
    She has laid all this out (none / 0) (#144)
    by Coral on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 08:17:52 AM EST
    available at her web site.

    Parent
    I don't mean to doubt you (none / 0) (#145)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 08:25:45 AM EST
    but evidently I have been looking at the wrong place on her web site because I cannot find where she lays out the costs for her health care plan, how she plans to pay for it or the details on how she is going to get ACA to universal coverage.

    I would really like to see that information. Would you please provide me with a link to the page that contains that detail.

    Thank you.

    Parent

    This is what I've found on her (none / 0) (#147)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 08:48:17 AM EST
    website under Health Care

    Health care

    Affordable health care is a basic human right.

    Going forward, Hillary will build on these efforts and fight to ensure that the savings from these reforms benefits families--not just insurance companies, drug companies, and large corporations.

    Defend the Affordable Care Act. Hillary will continue to defend the Affordable Care Act (ACA) against Republican efforts to repeal it. She'll build on it to expand affordable coverage, slow the growth of overall health care costs (including prescription drugs), and make it possible for providers to deliver the very best care to patients.

    Lower out-of-pocket costs like copays and deductibles. The average deductible for employer-sponsored health plans rose from $1,240 in 2002 to about $2,500 in 2013. American families are being squeezed by rising out-of-pocket health care costs. Hillary believes that workers should share in slower growth of national health care spending through lower costs.

    Reduce the cost of prescription drugs. Prescription drug spending accelerated from 2.5 percent in 2013 to 12.6 percent in 2014. It's no wonder that almost three-quarters of Americans believe prescription drug costs are unreasonable. Hillary believes we need to demand lower drug costs for hardworking families and seniors.

    Transform our health care system to reward value and quality.Hillary is committed to building on delivery system reforms in the Affordable Care Act that improve value and quality care for Americans.

    Hillary will also work to expand access to rural Americans, who often have difficulty finding quality, affordable health care. She will explore cost-effective ways to broaden the scope of health care providers eligible for telehealth reimbursement under Medicare and other programs, including federally qualified health centers and rural health clinics. She will also call for states to support efforts to streamline licensing for telemedicine and examine ways to expand the types of services that qualify for reimbursement.

    Hillary is continuing a lifelong fight to ensure women have access to reproductive health care. As senator, she championed access to emergency contraception and voted in favor of strengthening a woman's right to make her own health decisions. As president, she will continue defending Planned Parenthood, which provides critical health services including breast exams and cancer screenings to 2.7 million women a year.
    link

    No costs on these improvement  or how they are going to be paid for are provided.

    Is there another page? Please provide link.

    Parent

    I would rather have Sean Hannity (none / 0) (#1)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 07:06:21 PM EST
    As a moderator than Andrea Mitchell.

    Can't remember the last time I switched over to (none / 0) (#6)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:01:24 PM EST
    NBC for any reason... We,'ll survive.

    Parent
    Bernie released the plan (none / 0) (#2)
    by Kmkmiller on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 07:11:46 PM EST
    With middle class tax increase.

    whistles 'final countdown'

    My thought... (none / 0) (#3)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 07:28:53 PM EST
    According to a new poll by Quinnipiac University on Tuesday, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) destroys Republican candidate Donald Trump in a general election by 13 percentage points. In this new poll, Sanders has 51 percent to Trump's 38 percent. If this margin held in a general election, Democrats would almost certainly regain control of the United States Senate and very possibly the House of Representatives.

    Sounds inviting!


    I'll be tweeting about it (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 07:39:06 PM EST
    @armandodkos

    Let me just say that, (none / 0) (#5)
    by caseyOR on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:00:42 PM EST
    IMO, Chuck Todd is an idiot. Also, NBC's rather breathless pre-debate coverage is better suited to a Hollywood red carpet than a presidential debate.

    Infuriating (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:05:44 PM EST
    Wasn't it?  I lasted about 10 minutes and headed back the the Godfather Epic

    Parent
    I actually think Lester's okay (none / 0) (#9)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:10:52 PM EST
    (always have). The rest you can keep.

    Parent
    Agree, Lester is better than his (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:29:08 PM EST
    counterparts. But at least we didn't get Chris Matthews.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:12:15 PM EST
    He is.  5 bucks Mitchell will ask about Whitewater.

    Parent
    He was not on the MSNBC pre game (none / 0) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:13:08 PM EST
    That was all Todd.

    Parent
    Bernie (none / 0) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:14:21 PM EST
    Could use some foundation on the dome.  The glare is causing lens flares

    But no brown suit, thank god (none / 0) (#15)
    by MKS on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:19:59 PM EST
    Why is Martin OMalley (none / 0) (#14)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:16:00 PM EST
    On the stage?

    As a break from the yelling? (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:21:46 PM EST
    Clinton and Sanders sure cranked up the decibels early.

    Parent
    Because a triangle is more interesting (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:21:50 PM EST
    than a straight line. I think the media just wants it to not be a back and forth between Clinton and Sanders. Oddly enough, he is talking about things the other two are not.

    Parent
    God forbid we would get (none / 0) (#18)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:24:34 PM EST
    A back and forth between the two people who will actuall win.

    /-P

    Parent

    So you can take a break (none / 0) (#19)
    by MKS on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:24:53 PM EST
    and let your mind wander.....

    Parent
    Hopefully you know the answer to that question (none / 0) (#23)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:34:37 PM EST
    You mean (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:40:36 PM EST
    Because he's polling 5.1%?

    Parent
    Because he's running for the nomination? (none / 0) (#155)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 10:27:14 AM EST
    I understand you may not like him. You don't think he has a snowball's chance in hell of winning (he doesn't). But he has the right to be there. And I laud the Democratic Party for putting him on that stage.

    Parent
    O'Malley touted his (none / 0) (#22)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:32:49 PM EST
    support alternatives to prison for marijuana and repeal of the death penalty. He does not support legalization.

    None (none / 0) (#30)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:41:17 PM EST
    of them support legalization. At least not out loud during this forum.

    So, from the point of view of ending the deadly "war on drugs", we ain't goin' noplace.

    Parent

    And this my friend, (none / 0) (#154)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 10:25:26 AM EST
    is good reason not to vote for any of them. Jill Stein is looking better and better for my November ballot.

    Parent
    Hillary says (none / 0) (#25)
    by MKS on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:35:49 PM EST
    first responders should have Narcan....

    She has extensive detailed knowledge about a lot of stuff.

    Well, Bernie likes my idea (none / 0) (#26)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:36:06 PM EST
    Keep the ACA and build Medicare for all on top of it

    Hillary "has experience standing up to the (none / 0) (#28)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:40:22 PM EST
    health care companies," she says. But she didn't succeed.

    She's better when she talks about her achievements--that reminds us of where she's been.

    I don't (none / 0) (#33)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:46:42 PM EST
    like it when Bernie points at people. It just comes off as rude and aggressive, much more than he really is.

    I don't (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:52:08 PM EST
    see that gesture as rude or aggressive.

    I also don't think that he is "pointing at people".

    It's a gesture made to emphasize a point.
    Many people use it.

    Parent

    My (none / 0) (#41)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:55:14 PM EST
    mama taught me it was impolite to point.

    Parent
    It's sort of (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:48:13 PM EST
    Larry David

    Parent
    Got Boo'd for speaking fees line (none / 0) (#126)
    by Kmkmiller on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 12:07:41 AM EST
    Good to see Bernie get boo'd for his vicious and negative attack on Clinton earning speaking fees to important industries.

    Parent
    He doesn't (none / 0) (#136)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 06:00:32 AM EST
    understand those voters. Railing about Wall Street or Goldman Sachs is just that railing. It just comes off as not understanding their problems.

    Parent
    Morning Joe (none / 0) (#137)
    by Kmkmiller on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 06:19:17 AM EST
    is drooling over Sanders.

    Parent
    I had forgotten Hillary (none / 0) (#37)
    by MKS on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:50:05 PM EST
    got the SCHIP for kids when she was First Lady.  Degree of difficulty was tough on that....

    Lester's questions ask for the specific difference (none / 0) (#39)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:53:28 PM EST
    between Sanders and Clinton's policy positions. It's as if O'Malley isn't there.

    The arrogance (none / 0) (#40)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 08:54:47 PM EST
    of the media keeps shining through.


    Parent
    Turns out they're not that good (none / 0) (#46)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:00:17 PM EST
    at keeping control of the debate process. It's starting to be a free-for-all.

    Parent
    As it should be (none / 0) (#54)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:03:13 PM EST
    An actual debate.  No one expected that.

    Parent
    Hillary (none / 0) (#45)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:00:03 PM EST
    is sure playing kissy face with Obama.

    Democrats thump their chests just like Republicans when talking about taking on wall street.....maybe O'Malley will threaten to carpet bomb them. that will get him some attention.

    Kissy face (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:01:49 PM EST
    Location location location

    Parent
    It's a meaningful issue (none / 0) (#50)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:01:27 PM EST
    I like the yelling (none / 0) (#47)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:00:49 PM EST
    Does that make me a bad person?

    But I do worry someone's going to lose their voice before 10pm.

    I hate the yelling...trying not to turn over (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:08:37 PM EST
    To Downton Abbey.


    Parent
    I hate (none / 0) (#60)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:10:46 PM EST
    The damn commercials

    Parent
    Omg, halftime show with Chuck Todd (none / 0) (#63)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:13:47 PM EST
    I'm out of here

    Parent
    Will they go to the sideline reporters? (none / 0) (#66)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:15:57 PM EST
    All that aside, at least it's been substantive, and all things considered, the questions have been good, but Andrea Mitchell needs to give up on the illusion that she's objective - she's not.

    Parent
    9 pm for me. (none / 0) (#62)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:13:10 PM EST
    I get to watch both the debate between the Dems, and the debate between the Crawley cousins.

    Parent
    Will York take over the local hospital? (none / 0) (#68)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:17:40 PM EST
    riveting debate!

    Parent
    Lol - what a contrast that would be! (none / 0) (#64)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:13:55 PM EST
    You know what would be kind of hilarious?  If the Dems were debating Downton-style.

    Hillary in gloves, and Martin and Bernie in tails...

    Parent

    As Violet says, "Let the best man win" (none / 0) (#69)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:18:27 PM EST
    Even if its a woman.

    Parent
    Sanders nails Mrs. Greenspan (none / 0) (#58)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:06:03 PM EST
    to the wall on the middle class tax for health care.

    Ask Walter Mondale (none / 0) (#80)
    by MKS on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:37:38 PM EST
    about advocating Middle Class tax increases....

    The GOP would excoriate that position....They know how to do that.....

    Parent

    Except that the small tax (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:39:36 PM EST
    is offset by the savings on premiums and deductibles and prescription costs and....

    Parent
    Sure, but it is still a Middle Tax increase (none / 0) (#88)
    by MKS on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:45:01 PM EST
    The degree of difficulty in selling that is very very high.  You are playing to the wheelhouse of the GOP.

    Bill campaigned on a middle class tax cut....

    To get there tax increase on middle class would require a Democratic House...that would be immediately voted out the next election.....

    This my core problem with Bernie....little regard for the practical realities and consequences of what he advocates....pie in the sky....and fighting these battles that are losers right now could be destructive....

    Parent

    How is Hillary going to pay (none / 0) (#131)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 03:55:59 AM EST
    for the additional costs of improving ACA?

    Parent
    Hillary could pay for ACA (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by fishcamp on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 12:19:02 PM EST
    improvements by legalizing marijuana and taxing sales.  With so many states legalizing it one could say it will happen soon.  But, of course, the drug companies would stop their political donations, and neither party could handle that loss.

    Parent
    Additionally (none / 0) (#175)
    by christinep on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:26:00 PM EST
    The Sanders' plan would call for a payroll tax (6%) on employers ... I'd be curious as to how that plays among small businesses and hiring and pass-through approaches.

    And, I recall that a small tax hike would be required to pay for the very extensive program for covering all 4-yr college tuition that Sanders has pushed.  

    Taxes add up.  And then, people feel let down.

    Parent

    ::shrug:: (none / 0) (#177)
    by sj on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:37:24 PM EST
    I -- and my employer -- pay more than that in insurance premiums. And because my company has excellent health benefits, it is only a little more that.  At other firms I was not so lucky. Also, that is only for myself. Those with families aren't nearly so fortunate.

    People keep saying that "raising taxes" is a candidate killer. And that is true for some segments of the electorate. The ones who vote for slogans, if you will. But actually it isn't the "taxes" that most people notice. It's net pay.

    Parent

    Yes - as a die hard tax and spender (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by ruffian on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 02:18:07 PM EST
    I don't like Hillary's emphasis on tax raising being a bad thing.

    But that goes back to the Clintons' DLC roots in the 90s when they had to fight against the 'tax and spend' label to get elected dog catcher after the so called Reagan Revolution.

    Time to reclaim tax and spend. If Bernie would come out loud and proud for that I would be more likely to vote for him.  

    Parent

    I would be more than (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 03:22:34 PM EST
    fine with replacing premiums, deductibles and co-pays with taxes and better coverage.

    I'm going to be forking out some serious cash for dental work that I have to have. Bernie is proposing to cover dental as well. Poll after poll indicates that people are willing to pay more taxes for Medicare for All.

    Parent

    That made me smile (none / 0) (#190)
    by sj on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 02:32:04 PM EST
    I am also a "die hard tax and spender". Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society. They aren't going into the personal coffers of a king.

    With the usual caveat that I would appreciate a little less DOD spending.

    Parent

    The truth (none / 0) (#192)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 02:51:00 PM EST
    is even liberals don't like "tax and spend". The truth is it's all about where the money is going to I would say. I mean if our taxes were 50% and it was all going towards war and the military don't you think we'd be just as irate?

    Parent
    I agree with your comment here, sj (none / 0) (#180)
    by christinep on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:47:17 PM EST
    I feel the same.  Unfortunately, for the past few decades, those that disdain any tax raise and--out of fear or perversity--vote accordingly, do have the upper hand at the polls. Maybe it is the Independents???

    Parent
    Hmmm are there any tax increases (none / 0) (#194)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 02:53:40 PM EST
    In Hillary's plan? I know that some of her Imorovemenrs would cost money and others would cause a reduction in tax revenue.

    How does HRC plan to pay for her health care programs?

    Are there any tax increases scheduled as part of her college affordability program?


    Parent

    I don't know - but I would be fine if there were (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by ruffian on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 02:55:57 PM EST
    Actually so would I (none / 0) (#200)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 03:32:13 PM EST
    But you see if Sanders' tax increases are a bad thing that will cause people to feel let down as christinep claims or reinforce the Republican's mantra of Tax and Spend Liberals, I am interested in what type of faire dust is going to be sprinkled over HRC's tax increases to protect them from the same horrors. :-)

    Parent
    Yes, tax increases scare some poeple (none / 0) (#201)
    by ruffian on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 03:44:23 PM EST
    so they have to be explained well. I think Bernie did a decent job last night. He has to sell them to Dems before he gets a chance to sell them to the nation.  There are lots of centrist Dems that are afraid of them if they are not limited to the rich.

    Parent
    Lotsa tax increases (none / 0) (#197)
    by Kmkmiller on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 03:14:00 PM EST
    Starting with those making more than 250k per year.

    These are the tax increases we want the GOP to try to argue against.

    Parent

    Bernie sounding more "realpolitik" (none / 0) (#74)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:29:52 PM EST
    on how to deal with ISIS and Syria (allying with Russia and Iran) then the other two. Hillary sounds too vitriolic towards Iran.

    As is Sanders (none / 0) (#79)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:36:01 PM EST
    Lester doesn't let Clinton answer the question. Because..commercials are more important. Hopefully, they'll let her answer when they return.

    And the George Clooney movie does not interest me.

    Re: the privacy vs. security question (none / 0) (#81)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:37:56 PM EST
    Bu-bu-bu-but, it also stars Julia Roberts ... (none / 0) (#99)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:56:13 PM EST
    ... and has a Bruce Springsteen song in the trailer, and was directed by Jodie Foster. Doesn't any of that count for something?

    Parent
    Way too many commercials. (none / 0) (#82)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:39:32 PM EST
    Pretty sure NBC has enough money to afford to give us more debate and less advertising.

    And that's why we call it (none / 0) (#84)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:40:43 PM EST
    the corporate media.

    Parent
    A noun, a verb (none / 0) (#87)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:44:18 PM EST
    And Goldman Sachs?

    But (none / 0) (#92)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:46:45 PM EST
    don't you think he has a point about those mfs winding up as treasury secretaries?

    Parent
    Of course he does (none / 0) (#96)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:50:33 PM EST
    That's not the point.

    Parent
    So, (none / 0) (#109)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:29:00 PM EST
    once again, what is the point?

    Are you saying that he repeats that fact too many times?

    I think it needs to be heard - because we are not used to hearing it - or even thinking about the power these miscreants have over us and our government.

    Parent

    It was good (none / 0) (#89)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:45:40 PM EST
    to see Sanders shut Andrea Mitchell down.

    Too bad he didn't bring up Alan Greenspan ... (none / 0) (#97)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:52:49 PM EST
    ... in direct response to Mitchell's inquiry about Bill Clinton's personal behavior, given that it was her own husband's deplorably short-sighted monetary policies as Federal Reserve chair which did so much to help trash the economy.

    That would've been so precious.

    Parent

    Yeah but.. (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by jondee on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:49:12 PM EST
    that topic might've led back around again to Bill..and Larry Summers..and Robert Rubin and everyone else who thought at the time that Wall St deregulation was such a peachy idea.

    Parent
    Yes, there were. (none / 0) (#128)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:12:37 AM EST
    But hindsight's almost always 20 / 20, isn't it? Frankly, there were quite a lot of people at the scene of that crime, though I daresay not many would publicly admit so now. I'd rather think that it would be like trying to get Californians to acknowledge having voted for Arnold Schwarzenegger -- twice.

    ;-D

    Parent

    That would have been (none / 0) (#104)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:00:53 PM EST
    delicious!

    Parent
    Politically (none / 0) (#90)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:46:25 PM EST
    This is a wash IMO.  So far no one scored or was scored on.

    No Way (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by dissenter on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:47:50 PM EST
    Bernie started off first five minutes slow but is killing her on the issues.

    Parent
    Uh huh (none / 0) (#94)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:48:33 PM EST
    I thought it was the other (none / 0) (#111)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:45:33 PM EST
    say around -- Bernie was a blowhard fixated on his single issue. She showed a wider range of experience and was more charismatic. Probably a sign that no one gained ground, just cemented their position with their supporters.

    Parent
    Sort if what I meant (none / 0) (#152)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 09:41:37 AM EST
    Everyone did what their supporters wanted them to do.   More or less.

    Parent
    True dat. (none / 0) (#95)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:50:27 PM EST
    The contrast between Dem debates (none / 0) (#98)
    by shoephone on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 09:55:33 PM EST
    and GOP debates cannot be emphasized enough.

    Dems talk substance and invite us to think. The GOP wants to deport or sue or deport everyone they don't like. And they don't like very many of us.

    Go Hillary on Flint Michigan (none / 0) (#103)
    by MKS on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:00:34 PM EST
    She sent advisers there.....

    On it, she was....

    She wants to do the actual job of running (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:15:03 PM EST
    the government. That gets lost in the shuffle and is not particularly inspirational to lots of people, but it is to me.

    Parent
    Sanders' health system plan, (none / 0) (#105)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:13:00 PM EST
    is here, for anyone who's interested.

    And here's some analysis.

    I like (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 11:30:20 PM EST
    Kevin Drum who blogs for Mother Jones (whose analysis you cited) and I've read him for more than a decade, but on this issue, I'll go with Ezra Klein, who calls it vague and unrealistic. Ezra says it's not even a real plan, and it's not Medicare for All. Matt Yglesias is also not impressed. From Ezra:

    To be less generous -- but perhaps more accurate -- this is a document that lets Sanders say he has a plan, but doesn't answer the most important questions about how his plan would work, or what it would mean for most Americans. Sanders is detailed and specific in response to the three main attacks Clinton has launched, but is vague or unrealistic on virtually every other issue. The result is that he answers Clinton's criticisms while raising much more profound questions about his own ideas.

    Sanders promises his health care system will cover pretty much everything while costing the average American almost nothing, and he relies mainly on vague "administrative" savings and massive taxes on the rich to make up the difference. It's everything critics fear a single payer plan would be, and it lacks the kind of engagement with the problems of single-payer health systems necessary to win over skeptics.



    Parent
    Speaking as a supporter of Mrs. Clinton, ... (5.00 / 4) (#129)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:31:59 AM EST
    ... I commend Bernie Sanders for putting it out there, because this is a national conversation that dearly needs to be continued. Single-payer health care is a worthy goal, even if we have to attain it incrementally.

    And with all due respect to Ezra Klein and Matthew Yglesias, both of them really need to get outside the Beltway and eastern corridor, and broaden their horizons. They're both obviously well versed in the politics of public policy and its expediency thereof, but neither of them have ever shown much if any real due regard for the nuts and bolts of actual policy development.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I would like to (none / 0) (#107)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:22:53 PM EST
    look for ways that we can put the prescription drug business and the health insurance company business on a more stable platform that doesn't take too much money out of the pockets of hard-working Americans.

    Then, on the other hand...

    I really hated that statement; the (5.00 / 4) (#110)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:34:53 PM EST
    industry doesn't need the government's help to put it on a more stable platform - the people need help trying to keep the industry from holding their health - and their finances - hostage.

    Parent
    The above (none / 0) (#108)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:24:48 PM EST
    was a quote from HRC in tonight's debate.

    Parent
    Sanders deserves to win (none / 0) (#113)
    by hilts on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:48:29 PM EST
    Jeralyn,

    I'm deeply disappointed to see how one-sided you are regarding the Democratic race.  You're totally in the tank for Hillary.  Bernie is better than her on virtually every issue and is far more trustworthy.


    I like Bernie's position on issues (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 11:42:13 PM EST
    and I've said on some, his positions more closely reflect mine than Hillary's do. I am not "in the tank" for Hillary. I hardly write about her at all any more. I'm not particularly invested in this primary race. Compared to Joe Biden, Bernie is a relief.

    But my honest opinion is that I think Hillary is more capable of governing than Bernie. Having the right position on issues doesn't make one qualified to be President. If that's all it took, I'd be a good candidate, as would many readers of TalkLeft.

    The debates are what caused me to prefer Hillary to the extent that I do. She seems presidential and qualified to me, and she seems to have thought about all issues. She's used to delegating important tasks. I just don't see what Bernie's accomplished -- or that he has the breath of experience or interest in a wide range of federal topics he needs to be familiar with. He's too obsessed with his favorite topic, which is not of particular import to me, I worry about the others.

    Sorry you disagree, but my support is not a holdover from her last run. It's based solely on a comparison of her and Bernie in the present. Had John Edwards not torpedoed his career, and thrown his hat in the ring this year, I might well have been torn as to whom to support.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#146)
    by Coral on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 08:26:41 AM EST
    There's nothing wrong with being in the tank (none / 0) (#122)
    by Kmkmiller on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 11:32:56 PM EST
    for a candidate as long you're honest about it, what concerns me is a guy like Chris Hayes who pretends he's not in the tank for Bernie.


    Parent
    Not equivalent imo. (none / 0) (#115)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:56:24 PM EST
    Bernie is not as liberal as he claims to be. On the one hand, he says our criminal justice system relies too heavily on incarceration (even Republicans now agree with that.) But he continually calls for more prosecution of Wall St execs which will result in more people being incarcerated. Calling for more prosecution and incarceration of any group of non-violent offenders is not progressive in my view.

    The executives who managed such thievery that they incurred five billion dollars in fines - I wouldn't mind them receiving healthy jail terms.

    For people who smoke marijuana, a wave and a hearty handshake would do.


    agree (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by sj on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 11:07:47 PM EST
    those are not equivalent.

    Parent
    the point is not they are equivalent (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 11:46:42 PM EST
    but that a true progressive would not support prison for any non-violent offense. (Especially while complaining that the prison rate in the U.S. is too high.) Your moral views of Wall St execs should not be the litmus test. Prisons should be reserved for violent offenders who pose a physical threat to others. Other offenders should be dealt with by alternative sentences.

    Parent
    To me a non-violent offense (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by sj on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 04:09:12 AM EST
    is not the qualifier. The qualifier is did it harm or cause damage to others. I would submit that all those who lost their homes or jobs would consider that harm and causing damage.

    Having said that, I also believe that prisons should be a place of rehabilitation and not a petri dish for creating ever more hardened criminals.

    Parent

    violent v non violent offenses (none / 0) (#167)
    by MKS on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:06:45 PM EST
    It depends on what you view the appropriate purpose of incarceration is: public safety or punishment. I think it should be public safety.Right now the only way we can protect so iety from some is to put them in jail.

    So I would not put even Bernie Madoff in jail
     Id make him work a minimum wage job for life.

    Parent

    People really wanted to see Madoff (none / 0) (#169)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:14:13 PM EST
    drawn and quarted..and, to a large extent, scapegoated for many people's sins.

    The cries for blood vengence got more than a little perverse after awhile.

    Parent

    You may have written (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by lentinel on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 06:28:46 AM EST
    your opinion on this - but what would you do about a "non-violent" offender like Berard Madoff?

    Or the execs of Volkswagen who engineered a means of deceiving air pollution measurements?

    The former destroyed lives. Not physically violent, but the kind of violence that makes people want to kill themselves.

    And Volkswagen - how many people may have contracted breathing problems or other disabilities due to the malfeasance of those executives?

    I don't feel particularly vindictive, but the threat of jail time would be the only thing that might deter some of these people from using their power to defraud and injure others - albeit "non-violently".

    What does a fine even mean to these people?
    They might miss a business lunch at Le Bernardin.

    Parent

    I agree with you. (none / 0) (#156)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 10:35:28 AM EST
    But to Jeralyn's point, I think the middle ground is having a system where the punishment fits the crime. I agree that "non-violent" should not be the determining factor. But we have to got to stop giving out 20 year sentences for things like transporting marijuana for sale and the like. Most white collar criminals don't go to jail and most of their crimes are nonviolent. Perhaps we need to turn the system upside down and put the rich white collar guys away for a bit and ease up on the lower level and usually poor and disadvantaged nonviolent type offenders.

    Parent
    Even in the application of draconian (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 12:26:00 PM EST
    drug laws there's a glaringly gross hypocrisey involved..

    Bankers who have, over the years, laundered literally billions in drug and blood money are allowed to duck personal reponsponsility by hiding out in the bosom of corporate personhood, while the lone wolf users and dealers get drawn and quartered..

    Parent

    That would work for me (none / 0) (#178)
    by sj on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:42:44 PM EST
    Perhaps we need to turn the system upside down and put the rich white collar guys away for a bit and ease up on the lower level and usually poor and disadvantaged nonviolent type offenders.
    A bonus is it might actually start a conversation on prison reform, and the odious private prisons.

    Parent
    Don't Be Disappointed (none / 0) (#116)
    by dissenter on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 11:02:50 PM EST
    This is why this is a great blog. People have different ideas and come from different places on issues and why they think one candidate can win or will be defeated. It's all about the debate. I might not agree with Jeralyn on Hillary, but I sure appreciate her giving me the opportunity to tell her why I disagree with her. That is why this is a great blog. I might end up having to vote for Hillary through clenched teeth in a general election but Jeralyn will do the same if Bernie is the nominee. If she says she is voting for Trump, then be disappointed lol. In the meantime, convince her.

    I could be wrong (none / 0) (#119)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 11:13:47 PM EST
    but I don't think that Jeralyn would have to clench her teeth to vote for Sanders if it were to fall out that way.

    Now, if Biden were to be the nominee....

    Parent

    You are both right to an extent (5.00 / 5) (#125)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 11:57:57 PM EST
    I think Dissenter means I'd vote for Bernie even though I'd be wishing I could vote for someone else. She's right. I was more opposed to Obama pre-convention than I am Bernie now, and I still campaigned hard for him on Talkleft after his nomination. Above all, I am a Democrat.

    But Lentinel is correct that I draw the line at Joe Biden. I could never pull the lever for him, Democrat or not. His atrocious record on crime bills trumps all else for me. But to be clear, I would never vote for a Republican, even if Biden were the nominee. I'd just leave the space blank and vote downticket for local democrats.

    That's not the case with Bernie. If nominated, he'll have my support. He's just not my preferred choice and despite my agreement with almost all of his views, I don't think he can win in November.

    And my views can change -- my support of Obama since his election in 2008 is genuine. I may not agree with all his actions as President, but I trust him and I feel like the country is in good hands with him.

    Parent

    O'Malley waiting for the crowd to respond (none / 0) (#120)
    by Kmkmiller on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 11:30:18 PM EST
    to anything he said.... is awkward!

    The press (none / 0) (#134)
    by lentinel on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 05:37:26 AM EST
    that I have seen are reporting this event as what HRC did or didn't say... her tactics... etc.

    Were there any others involved in the debate? You wouldn't know it from the headlines and photos. Make that, "photo".

    I know that there are those who think that the media are pushing Sanders, but I don't see it.

    It's astounding to me that he has garnered so much support under these circumstances.

    I think that the media seriously underestimate the extent of malaise that exists in this country.

    Fortunately for Sanders (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Kmkmiller on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 05:43:30 AM EST
    the media focusing on what Clinton did or didn't say means he'll get more supporters who are sick of hearing about Clinton.

    Parent
    100% (none / 0) (#149)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 09:23:32 AM EST
    correct, the media has downplayed Sanders since day one, It's like they left him out of the narrative early, I'm not sure they have even worked up narrative yet(which is probably a good for him).

    During the steady rise of Sanders during the summer, the headlines were not about his rise but about Hillary's struggles. By the time it became clear this wasn't going to be the coronation the early narrative was suggesting the narrative never switched to actually considering Sanders as alternative but rather went on the great Biden hunt, more ink was spilled on the possible run of Biden than the actual run of Bernie.

    The bottom line is that the media has yet to create the narrative, that scares me and it should terrify the hell out of Bernie's supporters. I'm pretty sure the eventual narrative will not be that he's a "bold, imaginative defender of the middle class" and I am almost positive that some outlets will be all over the "wild eyed, Socialist(eek!), weird Uncle" meme.

    When I pondering the "electability" issue, one must consider the huge wild card the that the media has yet to play. I have a hunch that when that card is finally played it will not be good.

    Parent

    Personally I think the media fixates (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 12:38:43 PM EST
    on Clinton so much because the corporatacracy wants to ignore and supress as much as possible what Sanders has to say..

    It hits too close to home.

    Plus, the Clintons are a known "sexy" quantity; a familiar brand name who "make good copy"..they have more of a good-ratings reality show potential than the rumpled, cranky, old Jewish guy.

    Once again, in both instances, the profit motive is behind who's getting coverage and why.

    Parent

    I commented on this a few weeks ago (none / 0) (#139)
    by ruffian on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 06:29:45 AM EST
    Since when did "gun control" become "gun safety legislation?".

    It seems to be the new PC term. Drives me up a wall!!!!

    It is (none / 0) (#140)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 06:39:21 AM EST
    Supposed to put the minds of the gun owners
    At ease

    All about messaging, trying to avoid the
    Coming for your guns message

    Kristof in the NY Times is pushing that message

    http://tinyurl.com/zjyy4km

    Parent

    Yeah I get that is what it is supposed to do (none / 0) (#150)
    by ruffian on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 09:29:08 AM EST
    How's it working?

    Parent
    It is not and it won't (none / 0) (#151)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 09:34:48 AM EST
    right about that (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by ruffian on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 12:55:03 PM EST
    What I want (I won't speak for all liberals) is to control access to guns. Of course it is for the purpose of public safety. That does not make it 'gun safety', which to me implies classes on handling, storage, etc. Though those are great too, it is a small part of the problem.

    Kristoff cites that 10% of domestic violence shooting deaths can be prevented by controlling access to guns -  keeping them out of the hands of people with restraining orders against them. That is gun control and I am all for it. It is not gun safety.

    Parent

    Another surprising voice (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 02:54:05 PM EST
    Charles Blow, NY Times

    http://tinyurl.com/h7prjyl

    "They learned that 32 percent of the felons had acquired their most recent weapon through their own theft; an additional 14 percent knew that their friend, family, or street source had stolen the weapon before conveying it; and an additional 24 percent thought that the weapon probably had been stolen by his source. At least 46 percent, then, and possibly as many as 70 percent of felons' most recently owned firearms had been stolen either by the offender himself or by the source from whom he acquired the weapon. In addition, 47 percent of the respondents quizzed as to whether they had ever stolen a firearm during a crime admitted to so doing and 86 percent of the felons who admitted prior stealing of firearms reported multiple thefts."

    Rather than focusing on all guns, the vast, vast majority of which are owned by responsible people and are never used in the commission of a crime, we have to focus on keeping guns out of the hands of this relatively small number of criminals.

    Parent

    Well, I give you kudos for honesty. (none / 0) (#184)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:58:19 PM EST
    Because the way to control access is to take them.

    Most gun owners understand this.

    Parent

    Obama isn't coming for your guns.... (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by ruffian on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 02:44:50 PM EST
    but I am!!!!

    Parent
    Seriously, this is another way to look at the (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by ruffian on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 02:51:19 PM EST
    inspirational vs pragmatic POTUS debate we have been having on other issues. This and capital punishment are at least as important issues to me as single payer health care. There is no candidate that is going as far as I want on either issue. I understand that they can't and still get elected. Even Obama would not be able to give great speeches against capital punishment and have it abolished in one or even two terms.  The support has to come from the ground up and there are many activists working for it. That is how it gets done. I believe the support is slowly building on abolishing capital punishment.

    Int he meantime someone has to run the government in a knowledgeable and pragmatic way.  

    Parent

    Che is generally (none / 0) (#165)
    by MKS on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 12:58:37 PM EST
    beloved in Latin America.

    Comment with name-calling (none / 0) (#204)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jan 19, 2016 at 12:56:25 AM EST
    as to Che Gevara deleted. NateNYC< did you not read that comments with name-calling as to anyone will be deleted? And haven't you been banned from this site? Commenters who are banned may not come  back using new names. If I find out a commenter has done that, I will not only ban them but zap their account and all their comments, no matter how many hundreds of them there are.