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Sunday Night TV and Open Thread

This is an open thread, all topics (TV-related or not) welcome.

How much TV can I watch in one night? There's the Democratic debate and Sean Penn on 60 Minutes. There's the Good Wife, Downton Abbey, Shameless and the Royals. I even like Guys' Grocery's Games (I don't like Worst Cook in America.)

Two shows I tried to like and really didn't, so I won't be watching any more: Ruta 35 on Unimas and the most awful, gratuitously violent novela I've ever seen that just started last week on Telemundo. Called La Querida del Centauro, it seems to be a thinly veiled take on the prison romance between El Chapo and Zulema Hernandez. Sony generally does not make good novelas. The only passable one was En la Boca Del Lobo. I think novela-land will be barren until the return of Senor de los Cielos (season 4) in April. (La Viuda Negra Part 2 may start before then, but it's just okay.) The best, if you speak Spanish is El Capo (Seasons 1 and 2. Season 3 has English subtitles but isn't as good as the first two seasons.) Ranking up there with El Capo: El Cartel (Seasons I and II, not the movie); La Reina del Sur; Pablo Escobar Patron de Mal; and En La Boca del Lobo. [More...]

Sony currently has a series in production on the Search Bloque that gunned down Pablo Escobar. I'm expecting a glorified cop show (like Narcos). A Sony exec describes it as "Bloque De Búsqueda explores the less-familiar story of the heroes who ultimately captured [Esobar.] (my emphasis.) They would have been heroes if they arrested him and brought him to trial. State sponsored murder is not heroic. Also, it's not a "less familiar" story. Everyone knows about the Los Pepes and the right wing paramilitaries working with the Search Bloque and committing just as terrible atrocities as Escobar.

The word "narco-drama" in my opinion should be reserved for series that tell the story of narcos from the narcos' point of view. Yes, top narcos are ruthless and violent when it comes to those who betray or challenge them, but by humanizing them, the shows do not glorify them. There is a difference. By showing us that they love their families, are loyal to their workers are good businesspersons, contribute funds to the welfare of their community, and are admired by many their community, they aren't glorifying them. There's nothing glorified about ending up dead, tortured, in prison for life, or having those you love most massacred. That's the fate of all the big ones in the end, (except when a network decides to continue a show about them for another season. Obviously, it can't kill off the lead character until the final season.)

Shows about drug-traffickers that tell the story from the vantage point of law enforcement, like Narcos, are cop dramas, not narco-dramas. I wish the media would make that distinction.

You can watch almost all of the good narco-dramas except El Capo on Netflix's streaming plan. You can get the DVD's for El Capo on Amazon (and maybe Netflix if you have a DVD subscription plan.) Also good: Los Tres Caines, the story of the paramilitary Castano Brothers (one of whom founded or co-founded Los Pepes. It's not available with English subtitles or captioning though.)

Something else that Netflix should have but doesn't: "Forbrydelsen", the Danish version of The Killing with English subtitles.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome, not limited to TV.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Ah, another one gone (5.00 / 12) (#1)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:15:01 PM EST
    News on all the musical community wires today that Mic Gillette, an origtinal member of Tower of Power and the signature sound on a classic hit, "You're Still a Young Man," had died of a massive heart attack at the age of 64.

    Mic was the most sought-after horn player in the Bay Area, a musician so good that there was nowhere left to go.  He could play anything he thought of, as soon as he thought of it, and he could think of stuff other people can't.  You could put a chart in front of him that had more black than white on the page, and he could look at it and play it, in time, with perfect tone, first time he tried.  He was on thousands of recording in his lifetime.

    He was also my dear friend.  We worked together for about eight years with the Sons of Champlin.  I was the roadie, handled his horns, set up his music and his lights, loaned him my baseball cap for a stage gimmick he was fond of.  He carried his smaller horns, but he also played a tuba, and took a solo on it now and then.  That was my responsibility, like a violinist saying hey, take the Stradivarius over to the hotel, would you?

    In my other business, I took care of moving his piano when he changed locations.  He gave my crew some beautiful leather furniture, which ended up in a bachelor pad, and was always called "Mic's couch."

    I loved the guy, and he loved me.  We never had a harsh word because we always delivered, and there was no duplicity in either of us.  What you saw was what you got.  I will miss my friend.

    So sorry - not only does he sound like (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Anne on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:41:04 PM EST
    he had a great talent, but that he was also just a good human being.

    The world is always a little less for these lives that are lost; it's hard to lose such a good friend, too.

    At our age, that happens with more regularity than we probably want to acknowledge.

    Parent

    Had to memorize this in 8th Grade (5.00 / 5) (#3)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 10:52:15 PM EST
    No man is an island,
    Entire of itself,
    Every man is a piece of the continent,
    A part of the main.
    If a clod be washed away by the sea,
    Europe is the less.
    As well as if a promontory were.
    As well as if a manor of thy friend's
    Or of thine own were:
    Any man's death diminishes me,
    Because I am involved in mankind,
    And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
    It tolls for thee.

    John Donne

    Parent

    The buddhists say that bell (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by jondee on Sun Jan 17, 2016 at 11:00:40 PM EST
    is the sound of transience..

    And oh how well I know it.

    I'm terribly sorry for your loss, RR.

    Parent

    Repack, that's a very moving (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 12:04:51 AM EST
    tribute. I'm sorry for your loss. Wherever he is, I hope he gets to read it.

    Parent
    I'm so sorry for your loss of your friend. (none / 0) (#8)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 03:51:49 PM EST
    Mic Gillette was a tremendous talent who's left us a wonderful legacy, given his body of work with Tower of Power, etc. (My favorite TOP song is "So Very Hard to Go.")

    To be sure, you'll miss his physical presence on this earth, but if you carry him with you in your heart, he'll always be there with you and for you.

    Me ke aloha pumehana.

    Parent

    He's on the 'Cover of a Rolling Stone' (none / 0) (#16)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 03:36:13 PM EST
    webpage.  A modern cenotaph and not a bad way to be remembered.

    Parent
    Thanks for that (none / 0) (#18)
    by shoephone on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 04:04:22 PM EST
    I love what he said at the close of the article-- that his greatest source of gratification is when someone he taught makes good and they mention him as a reason they achieved musically.

    Parent
    Just heard California snow pack (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 10:50:59 AM EST
    Is at 112% .  And we at the beginning of peak snow season.  Last year only got to 30%

    We are awaiting Snowmageddon... (none / 0) (#27)
    by Anne on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 07:18:24 PM EST
    or Snowpocalypse...looking more and more like we are in the bull's eye of a massive snow event, with forecasts of blizzard conditions and 18" to 2 feet of snow.  Supposed to arrive by 6PM Friday and end sometime on Sunday.

    Saturday is my usual shopping day, so realizing I'm not going anywhere in a blizzard, decided tomorrow night would be even more of a grocery store sh!t show, so went tonight.  The store was out of the strangest things: ground beef, potatoes, broccoli.  Weird.

    On the assumption we would not lose power, I thought I'd get the ingredients for a good chicken soup, and maybe for a pan of lasagne.  Then, my daughter called to say that her husband has the opportunity to make some serious $$ plowing snow, but she didn't want to get snowed in with a 3 yr old and a 1-month old for a couple of days.

    Wanted to know if I'd come stay with them.  Which I will probably do - my husband says I should, that he will be fine by himself.  I don't know, though.  

    Anyway, it's only been a month since we had a 72 degree Christmas, and now we're going to get a couple feet of snow, after bitterly cold temps all week.

    Crazy.

    Parent

    I'm surprised you don't have a generator (none / 0) (#32)
    by shoephone on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 07:36:57 PM EST
    considering that you live out in the country. I think the bitter cold with no heat is harder to take than dealing with no lights, but that's just me. Living in the forest, our power goes out almost every time there's a big wind storm.

    If you're taking votes, I'd vote for going to your daughter's house. Little ones loooove having Grandma to play with in the snow.

    Parent

    I saw that (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 07:57:00 PM EST
    We just got our first snow.   Just a dusting.  Been cold though.  

    I have a small geni.  Just enough to run the tv, computer and fridge.  But I got a small propane heater that does not require power just for cases of lost power since I have electric heat.

    Which we fortunately have not had snow I got it.

    Parent

    I also have wood (none / 0) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 07:59:05 PM EST
    Heat.  But it's a lot of work.   I prefer using it for ambience .

    Parent
    Your daughter (none / 0) (#35)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 08:01:22 PM EST
    is probably going to really need your help. I got stuck in an ice/snow storm with a 5 week old for a few days one time. It was harder than it sounds. No power but thankfully we had a gas stove and a gas fireplace to use.

    Parent
    The more I thought about it, the more (none / 0) (#37)
    by Anne on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 08:18:06 PM EST
    I think you're right; and they do have a generator, so if the power goes out, we'll still have heat, water and light!

    I just need to be sure my husband plays it smart - doesn't spend too much time out in the cold and snow trying to keep the driveway plowed.  If the power goes out, we have plenty of wood for the fireplace, and we always have plenty of water.

    Guess I'll just pack up my provisions and we'll have a grand snow party!

    Parent

    Ohhhh Man... (none / 0) (#56)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 10:32:54 AM EST
    ... DC is going nuts, they got an inch and it shut down the city with 18" expected today.

    Even the Presidents Motorcade is not immune to an inch of snow.

    President Obama's motorcade trapped in DC gridlock after light snow

    This is what Houston looks like when it snows, not what DC should look like with an inch.
    VIDEO

    Parent

    None of the roads were treated (none / 0) (#57)
    by jbindc on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 10:43:13 AM EST
    My apartment is near I-66 in Arlington.  I watched as outbound traffic was stopped from around 8 pm to at least 10 pm (when I went to bed).  I don't mean it was inching along - I mean it was STOPPED.  I guess lots of ramps were blocked with accidents and cars that couldn't make it up because of the ice.

    Parent
    I Am Guessing... (none / 0) (#64)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 12:20:13 PM EST
    ...the mayors got some splainin' to do.

    Parent
    Anothe Planet ? (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 02:15:30 PM EST
    They're calling it "Planet Nine" for now. The planet, if it exists, has a mass 10 times that of Earth and takes between 10,000 and 20,000 years to orbit the sun.
     LINK

    It's crazy to me that people talk about space travel outside our solar system when we really don't even know whats out there or even where the boundary to the solar system is.

    There are around 200 dwarf planets, but only five have been named,  Pluto, Eris, Haumea, Makemake, and Ceres.  Ceres is actually located in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, the rest are out past Neptune.

    While the exact mass is unknown, for an object to be a dwarf planet it must be round:

    The qualifying feature of a dwarf planet is that it "has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape"

    LINK

    Very cool (none / 0) (#14)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 03:02:38 PM EST
    I saw a science channel show recently about how we are learning a lot more about how big the solar system really is and how its way bigger that anyone thought just a few years ago.   That it goes pretty much half way to the nearest star and perhaps even farther than that.  

    They talked about the fact it's possible we are in a binary star system and just have not been able to see the Suns twin because it could be a dim brown dwarf.

    When I first heard this I thought it might he that.

    Parent

    I Saw Something... (none / 0) (#19)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 04:20:35 PM EST
    ...that looked like a sponge, I believe they called it filaments, which was basically galaxies the size of molecules and how they cluster together much like molecules, some attract while others don't.

    Just think, what if it's infinite, that those molecules we see in the microscope were actually galaxies, and our galaxies, to some other life form look like molecules under their microscope.  And on and on, both ways.

    Through some glass we seem huge, through other glass we seem tiny.

    Is this space or something seen under a microscope, like nuerons.

    125 Mpc = 2,396,688,961,462,500,000,000 miles

    Parent

    I have thought about that (none / 0) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 05:09:55 PM EST
    Possibility since I was a child.  I like thinking our universe is part of the molecular structure of the Formica like counter top in a seedy roadside diner in a larger universe.  

    Parent
    How About This.... (none / 0) (#59)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 10:59:55 AM EST
    ...our universe is just the gray matter of some gigantic cosmic being, or that each of our grey matter is actually a universe to really small comic beings.

    All that infinity we observe is actually contained in each and every one of our skulls, just on a different scale.

    IMAGINE

    Parent

    It really brings it home (none / 0) (#25)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 05:49:44 PM EST
    When you see experiments that show how much "space" is in soace.  How tiny the planets and how much space is between them.  And between stars.
    And then that atoms are exactly the same.  Like if the nucleus of an atom was the size if a marble in the center of an NFL stadium the electrons would be orbiting out in the parking lot.
    Not only an infinite universe but infinity in both directions.

    Cooooool


    Parent

    What Blows My Mind... (none / 0) (#58)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 10:51:54 AM EST
    ...is that the electron has never been seen, like a blackhole, they know it's there but to date, it one has never been observed.

    I forget the guy who discover the electron's existence, but they say when he woke up the next day, he was scared to get out of bed because he realized what you are saying and was worried he might fall through the floor.

    Parent

    Planet Nine from Outer Space (none / 0) (#17)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 03:39:31 PM EST
    Who do we petition to name it Edwood?

    Parent
    I Like Plant Nine... (none / 0) (#20)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 04:23:16 PM EST
    ...its got such a cool ring to it.

    Parent
    There are a few space-y sounding (none / 0) (#31)
    by shoephone on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 07:32:52 PM EST
    plants that do well in Zone 9...like the Blue Moon Wisteria (but I think it's actually native to Kentucky or Missouri).

    Parent
    You have to think (none / 0) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 05:11:23 PM EST
    Plan 9 played a part in picking that name.

    Parent
    Wasn't There a Movie... (none / 0) (#60)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 11:30:51 AM EST
    ...called something like Caller 9 or Client 9.  I wasxt to say it was about a phone sex operator.

    Also I think 'Customer 9' is what some companies use to distinguish big spenders, VIP's.

    And of course you have the Beatles Revolution 9.

    Parent

    Plan 9 (none / 0) (#62)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 11:41:41 AM EST
    FROM OUTER SPACE

    the "greatest" SciFi movie ever made.

    Viva Ed Wood.

    Parent

    Plan 9 (none / 0) (#63)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 11:51:23 AM EST

    Often considered the worst movie of all time, Plan 9 From Outer Space does boast tombstones that are made of cardboard and tip over during the movie, it does feature one shot of Bella Legosi that is reused over and over and over, it does show a cop scratching an itch on his head with his gun, and stars a Swedish wrestler as a California cop, but it is not the worst movie of all time because the story is not that awful. The first 8 plans by aliens from some planet that doesn't really matter fail, so they employ their ninth plan for taking over Earth. At least I think they are taking over Earth, they say they are taking over Earth to save the Earthlings. All I know about the aliens is that they are dedicated to their cause, you would have thought they would have given up taking over Earth after 6 tries. You will have a good chuckle during the movie with the cheesy special effects and the silly acting and cheap props, but the entertainment value does make it better than some movies out there. Maybe 2 or 3 movies, at least. For more on the background to this movie and why it turned out the way it did, check out the 1994 film Ed Wood, and you will appreciate this film, at least a little more.

    Amen

    Glen or Glenda !!!!!

    Parent

    Side note (none / 0) (#66)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 04:20:46 PM EST
    If for whatever strange reason you have never seen the wonderful biopic Ed Wood you really really should.  Today.

    Johnny Depp, Bill Murray as Bunny Breckinridge, Martin Landau as the dying junkie Bela Lugosi.

    My favorite part is where they all let the religious yahoos baptize them in an attempt to get their money to make Plan 9.

    Parent

    Truly a performance for the ages (none / 0) (#67)
    by jondee on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 05:49:48 PM EST
    by Martin Landau.

    Interesting side note about the real Lugosi is that there's strong evidence that he suffered from PTSD his whole life as a result of his experience in the Austro-Hungarian army in WWI. Apparently, among other things, at one point he was forced to be a hangman and another time survived a battle by hiding under a pile of dead bodies.

    Parent

    I've heard some of that (none / 0) (#68)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 05:53:51 PM EST
    THAT would be a great biopic.

    Parent
    Yeah it really would be (none / 0) (#69)
    by jondee on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 05:56:31 PM EST
    except that every actor would be afraid of trying to top Martin Landau.

    Parent
    Can't think of a more deserved (none / 0) (#70)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 06:00:38 PM EST
    Oscar

    Parent
    Pastor: "Do you renounce Satan (none / 0) (#74)
    by jondee on Fri Jan 22, 2016 at 01:55:04 PM EST
    and all his works?"

    Bunny Breckenridge: "Sure"

    Parent

    Take it away (none / 0) (#75)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jan 22, 2016 at 08:20:39 PM EST
    Bunny

    "It's not a monster movie.  It's a supernatural thriller"

    Parent

    It Was Girl 6... (none / 0) (#73)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jan 22, 2016 at 11:04:33 AM EST
    ...that I was thinking of.  Dumb.

    Parent
    More unhinged right winger moments (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by shoephone on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 03:02:16 PM EST
    They're popping up every day, too many to keep up with. Here are two, just from today, to wet your whistle:

    1. Palin blames son's domestic violence arrest on PTSD and Obama. It seems nothing the Palins do is ever their fault. Interestingly, no one's aware of an official PTSD diagnosis for son Track.

    2. Ted Nugent--who promised he'd be dead or in jail if Obama won re-election--wants to have Obama and Clinton executed, because...he believes the new Michael Bay movie "13 Hours" is the gospel truth. As an aside, Nugent's just not a very good guitar player.


    And they (none / 0) (#15)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 03:16:30 PM EST
    are whining about the poor turnout and sales for the movie calling it a "liberal conspiracy" I guess they never thought that maybe after years and then 11 hours of questions everybody is sick and tired of hearing about Benghazi and the last thing anyone wants to do is pay 10 bucks or more to hear about it again.

    You would think the GOP would at least TRY to shut down the crazies.

    Parent

    Why would they? They feed off them (none / 0) (#30)
    by shoephone on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 07:30:30 PM EST
    The crazies are a solid part of the base that's energizing the GOP primaries.

    Parent
    I've (none / 0) (#6)
    by lentinel on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 12:04:06 PM EST
    seen the framing of the candidacies for the Democratic nomination to be who is best to carry on the Obama legacy.

    Personally, I don't think this is such a good idea.

    For some of us, his legacy is not a great one.
    We did not leave Iraq or Afghanistan, and now we are embroiled in a civil war in Syria.

    And then there is the matter of the widening gulf between those of us who have a lot, and those of us who don't.

    I'm sure someone could make a case for his accomplishments - but I wonder what percentage of the population experiences a legacy that they would wish to continue.

    I would say (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by sj on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 01:57:25 PM EST
    that lots of married gay couples want it to continue. How much he contributed to that is surely a matter for debate. But it happened under his watch, and he gets credit for it.

    Or blame, in some quarters, I suppose.

    Parent

    I remember (none / 0) (#10)
    by lentinel on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 04:31:53 PM EST
    during the campaign of 2008, he said he opposed gay marriage based on his religious up-bringing.

    "I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman,"... "Now, for me as a Christian -- for me -- for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God's in the mix."

    and:

    "I'm a Christian, and so although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman."

    I also remember him campaigning with one Rev.Donnie McClurkin - a pastor and gospel music singer who said God had delivered him from "the curse" of homosexuality.

    Then he, Obama, evolved.

    It is unclear to me what, exactly, he did to change things. In my opinion, his "evolution" transpired when there was little or no risk to his career.

    Maybe I'm being unfair or unkind to the man. But to be that clueless about an issue of human rights...and he wasn't a kid. He was 47 at the time.

    Still, progress certainly happened during his tenure in office - so I would agree with you that many would credit him with that progress...

    I don't know quite what to think about it.

    Parent

    While not perfect, and lord knows I've (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Anne on Mon Jan 18, 2016 at 04:16:21 PM EST
    been vocal about what I didn't like, it hasn't been all bad - especially in the last year, and I'm looking for more progress in this lame-duck year - but I don't want us to just run in place, maintaining the status quo.

    The work is arduous, especially given the political makeup of the Congress, and the incipient fascism that the likes of Trump are trying to foist on us.

    I get that Clinton feels like she first has to get the nomination, and then she'd have to win the WH, but I hope this isn't going to be about Clinton being Obama Term III; if she's going to be president, she needs to own who she is, and allow the voters to choose her, not Obama Redux.

    Parent

    It's so interesting (none / 0) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 05:20:47 PM EST
    Scanning the media inter web reactions to the "establishment" stuff.

    MSNBC is avoiding mentioning it at all.  Chuck Todd only mentioned it to say of course, Sanders was right.  Those organizations are "obviously" part if the establishment.

    There was a post at DKOS that had a surprisingly wide sweep of opinions in the comments.  It expected al lot more Sanders supporter venom.  But I found plenty if that at a post on the subject at C&L.  I did not see a single comment that was not viciously attacking the post for even suggesting the comments were out of line.  Which it did in quite a balanced and unaggressive way.

    Actually the first comment sad something like, boy are you going to get it.

    Links (none / 0) (#24)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 05:26:34 PM EST
    Sanders (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 06:07:08 PM EST
    supporters venom as in continuing the attack on PP and HRC? Or venom directed at Sanders for saying what he did?

    On twitter Sanders is really getting reamed about PP not so much Human Rights Campaign. Mostly because PP people have to wear bullet proof vests and as you know have been literally under attack for a long time now.

    Parent

    The fact that the Colorado PP murders (none / 0) (#29)
    by shoephone on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 07:28:47 PM EST
    were so recent is part of why it's stunning that Sanders would make the comment. It's tone-deafness.

    Parent
    About money someplace.... (none / 0) (#50)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 08:35:34 AM EST
    The first part of your comment (none / 0) (#28)
    by shoephone on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 07:24:50 PM EST
    is what I was trying to address in my last comment on the 200+ thread.

    When is a political organization considered "establishment"? Does it just mean they've been around a long time? They have influence over the political process? They have corporate donors? I think (per what Ga says below) that it's interesting that Sanders is getting more flack for the PP characterization as "establishment" than the HRC one. Which makes me wonder if, in fact, HRC is seen as more connected to corporate donors and more willing to compromise.

    And, Chuck Todd is obviously an idiot.

    Parent

    My problem with it (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 08:15:50 PM EST
    Is I believe it was intended as a pejorative.  IMO, which may or may not be shared, that was clear.  Those posts I linked to did a good job or saying why that is  a rotten thing to do.

    As far as HRC being more "establishment" that PP or more deserving of distain or whatever, for be that is barely a relevant distinction.   The HRC is an important, arguably vital organization.  IMHO they have done more good for the world I care about than Bernie Sanderrs ever has.  Or likely ever would.  Notwithstanding that they have taken some positions I have not agreed with.

    Again, IMO, for me, personally, it's simply a sh!tty thing to say.  It shows a narrow view and a mean streak.  

    I was just watching a fascinating conversation with Ta Nehisi Coats who is taking a lot of fire for questioning Sanders views on reparations. on Chris Hayes show.  I suggest it.  I'm sure it's up one site by now.

    It was fascinating for me because the off handed way he dismissed the idea, which is what Coats has a problem with, seemed to me very like the tone he took on this question.  

    In short, he doesn't get it.  Because these things don't directly effect him, or his central financial message, he doesn't get it.  Or particularly care about it.  

    My impression.  My opinion.

    Parent

    Btw (none / 0) (#38)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 08:26:48 PM EST
    Before we get into the whole "Hillary doesn't support them either" thing, please, read what he says.  Or at least watch the appearance on All In.  He eloquently addresses all that.  Far better than I or anyone else could here.

    Parent
    Btw 2 (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 08:35:51 PM EST
    The next segment after Coats is Nate Silver eating his words and predictions about Donald Trump.

    That was pretty sweet too.

    Parent

    I understand. (none / 0) (#40)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 08:37:59 PM EST
    To me and this is my opinion women are kind of an afterthought. Not just PP but because in healthcare there seemed to be no thought as to what a national healthcare plan would do to women with the Hyde Amendment still in tact and then all the court challenges that have happened over the last few years like Hobby Lobby. How does that play out? It doesn't seem to have been thought about.

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    Has Sanders been actually asked about (none / 0) (#41)
    by shoephone on Wed Jan 20, 2016 at 10:52:24 PM EST
    repealing the Hyde Amendment?

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    I don't (none / 0) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 04:37:30 AM EST
    know if anyone has asked.

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    There's nothing libelous about reporting (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 07:22:45 AM EST
    the fact that Courtney Love has publicly stated that she first "met" traditional values champion Ted Nugent when she was twelve years old.

    Nor is it libelous to repeat Nugent's own story told in a High Times interview about faking insanity to avoid the draft.

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    Sanders (none / 0) (#44)
    by jbindc on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 07:37:35 AM EST
    Has been strangely silent on the issue.

    It's also worth noting that Clinton recently advocated for repealing the Hyde Amendment, which restricts federal funds for abortion -- an issue that even Planned Parenthood has only recently gotten more outspoken on thanks to new grassroots pressure. Meanwhile, Sanders released a Medicare-for-all plan without acknowledging that as long as Hyde is law, Medicare can't fund abortion coverage.

    And, he's certainly had an opening - Clinton discussed it in front of him at the Iowa Brown and Black Forum. He's had plenty of chances to talk about it since then, yet he hasn't.


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    I don't (none / 0) (#45)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 07:41:45 AM EST
    think it occurs to him frankly. He's all about one issue and one issue alone I would say.

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    To be clear (none / 0) (#47)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 07:53:09 AM EST
    That's not what I said.   I believe he probably has very similar positions to Hillary on most if not all these subjects when pressed but he has "his issues" that will be his issues and pretty much everything else is on the side.

    IMO there is an important difference there.  

    The Coats interview nails it.  His is a revolutionary campaign.  As long as your revolutionary issues are the same as his.  If not, not so much.  

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    I know (2.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 08:55:11 AM EST
    what you were saying. The Coates article makes it clear. Any issue that gets in the way of the "revolution" is to be thrown under the bus. Gays can be part of the "revolution" as long as they don't care too much about their rights it seems.

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    To try again (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 09:03:22 AM EST
    To be more clear
    The sort of hyperbole in that comment is no more helpful than what comes from rabid Sanders supporters.

    It's not that Sanders has a bad record on these issues.  It's that IMO they are not his primary issues.  

    When Coats talks about repeatedly trying yo engage the campaign on his issues and just being ignored that's a problem.   But he never sis he was " thrown under the bus"

    Words matter.

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    I understand. (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 09:25:30 AM EST
    what you are saying.

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    Not what I said (none / 0) (#53)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 08:57:04 AM EST
    That is over the top (none / 0) (#65)
    by shoephone on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 04:11:06 PM EST
    Apparently, it's now okay to paint Sanders as some sort of sexist pig because he doesn't talk up women's issues as much as Clinton. One look at his history of congressional votes on both reproductive rights and gay rights makes it clear that the image being painted by Clinton supporters is not backed up by facts.

    If people want him to talk about those issues they should ask him. The dig that he doesn't automatically talk about everything you want to hear when, in jb words, he's been given "an opening" (has he? when was he given "an opening"?) is, IMO, petulant posturing from the Clinton fans. And when it comes to gay rights, Sanders opposed DOMA, and was on board with support for same-sex marriage long before Clinton.

    His campaign is mostly about fighting the status quo and income inequality. Naturally, he is going to talk about that first and foremost. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure what the main message of Clinton's campaign is.

    Look, I don't pretend Sanders is running a perfect campaign, but as a woman--and one who has been an active supporter of reproductive rights my entire life--I find the complaints against Sanders on this issue to be unwarranted. Reality check: he made a tone-deaf comment about "organizations that are part of the political establishment" when he was bypassed for their endorsements. He should have phrased his reaction in a way that signalled more respect for the work those organizations do. But to start a tirade that he's "dismissive" of women, and doesn't care about women's rights is totally unsupported by the facts.

    Incidentally, The Stranger had a post on this brouhaha, and, in addition to the author getting skewered for his conclusion that the endorsements were all about which candidate would supply better political payback once in the WH, the comment section is filled with LGBT folks who mostly have terrible things to say about the Human Rights Campaign. "Establishment" is one of the mildest accusations I've read there.

    And the venom being spewed here is truly poisonous. It's become impossible to have intelligent conversation with all but a few commenters.

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    You are (none / 0) (#71)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 08:31:50 PM EST
    putting words in my mouth. I never said he was sexist. It's just he's seems to me at least to be focused on one thing.

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    While you don't use the word "sexist" (none / 0) (#72)
    by shoephone on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 09:34:59 PM EST
    it is pretty clear you think he really doesn't care about either women or gays. After all, to Sanders women "are an afterthought." And "Gays can be part of the 'revolution' as long as they don't care too much about their rights it seems."

    Your words, not mine.

    I'm done with this nonsense. When faux pas and imagined slights are cause for bringing out the daggers, intelligent conversation is impossible. As a woman, I find it embarrassing to watch. Maybe thin skins will grow a little thicker after New Hampshire. One can only hope.

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    I find it puzzling that in the debates, (none / 0) (#46)
    by Anne on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 07:48:52 AM EST
    the important and large issue of reproductive rights has been largely ignored, and I have no idea why.

    And that would be the perfect time and place to get things like the Hyde Amendment on the table, and hear from the candidates.

    I know Clinton has proposed doing away with it - and I agree with and applaud her position - so I would like to hear from Sanders on it.  It's going to bother me if he treats it in the same low-energy way he's approached some other topics; it may force me to conclude that perhaps he might be better at whipping a Clinton agenda from within the Senate on the issues that truly get his blood pumping than governing from within the WH.

    [I hope you didn't hurt yourself falling off your chair!]

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    Especially (none / 0) (#48)
    by jbindc on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 07:55:48 AM EST
    As I posted (which I didn't realize until this morning), that his "Medicare for all" doesn't address it, which means, right off the bat that it isn't an all-encompassing single payer plan!  That seems like something pretty significant that should have been included!

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    I would not look forward to (none / 0) (#49)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 07:58:34 AM EST
    Much substance the next 10 days.  Or whatever it is.  Some one just posted a rather hysterical comment in the last thread that OMG JOE BIDEN SAYS HE A SOCIALIST!  THE "ATTACK" HAS BEGUN.

    This is the shape of the debate in the near future I'm afraid.   I guess the Clinton campaign may raise these issues but they will be dismissed as "attacks" of deflected with "sochulism"

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    The (none / 0) (#52)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 08:56:43 AM EST
    socialism tag is a problem among other things that are now being discussed. I guess we'll see whether it makes a difference or not.

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    For The Record... (none / 0) (#61)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jan 21, 2016 at 11:41:38 AM EST
    ...it's a full blown, what I think Sanders would call an establishment, attack on socialism.

    Basically almost every major new media outlet has some version of Sanders & socialism within the past couple of days.

    LINK

    That sucks, what he said Monday deserves the full blown onslaught, not this socialism BS.

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