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Milwaukee Debate Thread

Sorry everyone, I just found out there's a Democratic debate tonight. Here's a thread to discuss it.

Update: I watched almost all of it. Here's the transcript. My view: Oddest Bernie Sanders comments: Dragging out Henry Kissinger for criticism over Kissinger's actions during Vietnam and Cambodia. He said Hillary mentioned Kissinger in a book she wrote. Who cares about Henry Kissinger today? Was he just reminding us someone is older than him?

Bernie thinks the campaign is about more than electing a president. He thinks it's about a political revolution. He's wrong. It's about who is going to be President. That's it. Bernie Sanders is not a movement. He's an established politician running for office. That's all there is, folks. [More...]

Hillary's closing statement was much better than Bernie's.

Once again, the only time Bernie's posture was erect was when he was discussing Wall Street and campaign finance. I think it's all he cares about. I'm not particularly interested in either topic.

Bernie acts like his criticisms of the criminal justice system are original. Please. Criminal defense lawyers have been lobbying Congress for these changes and writing and trying to attract attention to them for decades. Why wasn't Bernie a national leader on these issues before now?

I'm not the only one who has noticed Sanders has been absent until now.

[Clinton] Campaign officials announced a slew of new endorsements among African American leaders and deployed them in an aggressive campaign to discredit Sanders’s record on civil rights issues important to African American voters.

The latest effort came Thursday, when the Congressional Black Caucus PAC endorsed Clinton. At the Capitol Hill event, Rep. John Lewis of Georgia, a renowned civil rights leader, harshly criticized Sanders and discounted the senator’s civil rights activism in the 1960s.

"I never saw him. I never met him," Lewis said. "I was chair of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee for three years, 1963 to 1966. I met Hillary Clinton. I met President Clinton."

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  • I wish he would tell her why she is wrong (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:19:08 PM EST
    Specifically instead of repeating the same talking points. My continuing frustration.

    Planned Parenthood, Hillary. Gees. (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:27:32 PM EST


    Good evidence that endorsements (none / 0) (#22)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:29:34 PM EST
    don't buy you any special favored from Hillary. Not even a mention.

    Parent
    Finally! She must have realized it while (none / 0) (#24)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:31:23 PM EST
    Bernie was talking.

    Parent
    Do you think (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:30:23 PM EST
    Gwen Ifill possibly be more smarmy do ya think?

    That's her style...I've gotten used to it (none / 0) (#25)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:32:10 PM EST
    Don't like it, but gotten used to it.

    Parent
    Good. She gets national attention (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:37:36 PM EST
    to the name, the case, of Donte Hamilton -- ignored amid other cases of police killings elsewhere.  Clinton met with the mother, when last in Milwaukee, and worked with Congresswoman Gwen Moore (the Hamiltons are in her district) to get some action, at last.  But national pressure on local police is needed.

    Is africanamericansandlatinos one word? (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:46:03 PM EST


    Also one word is (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:26:06 PM EST
    ourbravemeninthemilitary.

    (I'll replay it, but I really don't think that I heard womenandmeninthemilitary. . . .)

    Parent

    It is when you've been told you need to (none / 0) (#38)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:51:00 PM EST
    make inroads with africanamericansandlatinos

    Parent
    Waiter! Check please! (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:28:47 PM EST


    Foreign policy (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by AnnL on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:31:40 PM EST
    Goodness Vietnam Nam. Really Bernie. Your voters don't even have any idea what your talking about

    Their grandfathers told them (none / 0) (#81)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:36:03 PM EST
    about that war, back in the day.

    Parent
    Foreign affairs is a big weak (none / 0) (#90)
    by caseyOR on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:45:58 PM EST
    spot for Sanders. His understanding is at best rudimentary, and quite inadequate for someone who vying for the office of POTUS.

    Parent
    BTD tweet: (5.00 / 3) (#97)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:52:35 PM EST
    Bernie Sanders just repudiated Bernie Sanders.


    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#104)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:56:27 PM EST
    pretty much.

    Parent
    That's the money clip (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:58:43 PM EST
    We will see tomorrow

    Parent
    Judging from Tad Devines (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:06:04 PM EST
    Panicked backpedaling on this subject on MSNBC I think it drew blood.   And I expect we will hear more about it.  

    Tweety "he looked like he was hailing a cab or calling a waiter"

    He did.

    Parent

    I'm glad (none / 0) (#111)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:09:27 PM EST
    you can watch the pundit shows because they generally make me want to throw a pillow at the TV.

    Parent
    where is Armando? (none / 0) (#112)
    by MKS on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:10:39 PM EST
    check his (none / 0) (#137)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:24:23 AM EST
    Foreign Affairs.. (none / 0) (#147)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 07:46:55 AM EST
    If it's possible to "draw blood" from one of the White Walkers, I would say Sanders definately drew blood in response to Hillary's criminally superficial gloss on the supposed "opening up" of China.

    How exactly has that 1984ish totalitarian surveillance society been opened up?

    Oh yes, it's been opened up for the outsourcing of American jobs and for the purchasing of, among other things, hi-tech surveillance
    equipment from the good ole U.S of A..Which, sorry folks, brings us inevitably back to the oh so boring and tiresome Wall Street and millionaires and billionaires again..

    And, sorry you don't like being reminded of it but, Kissinger is still a proven murderer, torture enabler,
    and a war criminal.

    Parent

    If Senator Sanders drew (none / 0) (#167)
    by KeysDan on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 10:21:29 AM EST
    blood on the opening up of China, he quickly stanched the flow by agreeing that this was a good (the only) move by Kissinger.  The opening up of China, did, as the Senator said, consist of opening up trade.

     However, this was a beginning.  President Carter normalized US relations with China in 1979, and the Carter Center (a joint venture with Emory University) still  has a China program to advance interrelationships in a variety of areas. And, subsequent presidents have tried to move further ahead in China relationships. And, as imperfect as the relationship is, it much better than before and eons better than having an isolated country of a billion people.

      But, you are right there is a long way to go, but it would seem that Senator Sanders appreciates that given his realization of long-germ efforts needed in dealing with Iran and Cuba.  

     That having bee said, I, too, have an uneasy feeling when Mrs. Clinton mentions Kissinger, and, even when she explains that she takes consultative advice from a range of people and only  in certain areas that they may offer. I feel that way as well when it is reported that President Obama may have met with Bush (any of them).

     But, still, when I think of Kissinger I prefer the imagery of him fleeing through the kitchen exit of a European hotel with Spanish prosecutors hot on his heels.  

    Parent

    To me (none / 0) (#169)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 10:31:26 AM EST
    it sounded like trying to re litigate the Nixon Administration much like the GOP constantly obsessing over the Reagan Administration. It's like do I need to pull out my tie dye from the mothballs? Or maybe I need to revisit big hair after a GOP debate.

    Parent
    Leadership (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by AnnL on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:45:35 PM EST
    She nailed him

    "I am not a single issue candidate" (5.00 / 6) (#98)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:52:43 PM EST
    did she finally find an effective line against the Bernie argument?

    I like it.

    She's so much better about tieing in (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:53:10 PM EST
    local issues. And again, specific examples. Great closing.

    If voters were watching Bernie ... (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:53:28 PM EST
    for the first time tonight, I doubt any of them saw a future POTUS.

    Bad night for Bernie.

    Devine (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:21:49 PM EST
    Is being called out for circulating the picture of Bernie at a civil rights demonstration that it turns out is not actually a picture of Bernie.  
    So much weaseling.   The obvious problem being they couldn't find an actual picture of him at a civil rights demonstration.

    Too funny.

    this picture

    Spouse sez Sanders camp sez (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:32:57 PM EST
    that was just a representative photo of a generic Sixties protest.

    Yeh, that's why there's a circle around one of the, uh, generic protesters.

    Parent

    ROFL (none / 0) (#127)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:39:22 PM EST
    I'm sure you read the excellent book (none / 0) (#130)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:43:11 PM EST
    about the protests in Madison at the U that came out a few years ago. Trying to think of the name...but it reminds me of the photos in there. I'll look for it on my shelves....

    Parent
    Oh, yes. Lots of folks I know (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:56:28 PM EST
    in the book.  And a neighbor, down the street now (a great blogger on environmental issues, by the way), who also is important in the excellent documentary, "The War at Home."  I still show it to students, and sometimes he comes to class to talk with them.  

    It's fun to watch their faces for the moment when they finally connect the young guy in the huge 'fro with the bald guy they see before them now.  

    But they're, y'know, forever young.  Yeh.  So were we.

    Parent

    'They Marched Into Sunlight', by David Maraniss (none / 0) (#132)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:50:12 PM EST
    That photo is not in there,alas.

    Parent
    Ha! Tad, not every one that stoops and (none / 0) (#121)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:27:16 PM EST
    Talks with his hands is Bernie Sanders. Nice try though.

    Most amusing that they thought they had to come up with something.

    Parent

    I have pictures of me (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:48:28 PM EST
    At civil rights demonstrations.  There is even a really good one in the 1970 college yearbook of me standing up in a meeting a screaming at a policeman.

    Parent
    Ok (none / 0) (#135)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 11:01:46 PM EST
    Technically more of an anti war demonstration.  

    Parent
    Mrs. Clinton (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by KeysDan on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:27:03 PM EST
     articulated her goals and strategy: Build on the successes of the Obama Administration so as to address the multiple issues of the country with her extensive and interrelated domestic and foreign policy experiences.

     As usual, she was detailed, but the wonkiness was a welcomed comparison to that of Senator Sanders' repetitive, one-size fits all inspirational curative. My intuition is that Senator Sanders' generalized treatment of issues will become recognized as being a collection of noble goals, but not necessarily, a program to execute unless it provides specifics.  And, some of the goals, were very long range, from a Medicare for All (whose roll out still was not clarified), to the goal of normalizing relations with Iran (which was likened to Cuba and its long gestation period for resumed relations.)

    The debate, too, offered an opportunity to imagine each facing a Republican candidate, rather than the other. Sander v Trump, a battle armed with inspiration; Clinton v Trump, a battle royal on all fronts, armed with inspiration and facts.

    Senator Sanders may have entered the debate overconfident in the face of his NH victory, whereas, Mrs. Clinton, who always seems to do best, when challenged, was cool, collected and tough, in a decent way. I worried about Senator Sander's flushed look.  Mrs. Clinton's outfit was not her best (Navy blue is her color for these debates).  The stage background was too bright, which was not flattering to either one.

    The moderators, save for a few off questions, were non-intrusive and keep the debate moving. No pile ups at the entry gate, either.

     

    Actually, the Sanders comments here (5.00 / 3) (#136)
    by NYShooter on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 11:06:19 PM EST
    did border a little bit on the mean side.

    What I mean is that I really felt this kind of showing for him was pretty much inevitable, sooner, rather than later. And, I believe the realization of that, now that Iowa & New Hampshire are behind him, sort of weighed down on him like a ton of bricks. He really felt, and showed the fatigue from that, and, the certain knowledge that he pretty much "shot his load" in those two states.

     That's why I felt the somewhat frenetic denunciations of him were a little overdone. He wasn't ever, really going to be a serious challenge to Hillary. Just do the math; you've all stated it again and again: a one trick pony. He almost duplicated Rubio's one track performance.

    And, he knows it, and,
    it showed.

    Guilty for my part (none / 0) (#141)
    by ruffian on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 05:48:17 AM EST
    When it became obvious there was going to be nothing new from Sanders it felt like the stakes disappeared and the tension went out of the thing and there was nothing left to focus on but the foibles. I don't know how they are  going to get through 4 or 5 more of these things.  

    Parent
    There were many here that thought (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by CoralGables on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 06:59:20 AM EST
    it would help the underdog candidates if there were just more debates.

    The more debates that come and go, the more it shows the shortcomings of those unprepared and less knowledgeable candidates. The cream still rises to the top, and soundbite candidates slowly fade away when there is an intelligently informed electorate.

    Parent

    After (none / 0) (#142)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 06:01:43 AM EST
    not being tired and commenting I actually started to feel sorry for Bernie. Truly I did.

    Parent
    Bernie Sanders is a good and decent man, ... (5.00 / 2) (#177)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 10:56:54 AM EST
    ... with a noteworthy track record of accomplishment in his own right. That's why as a supporter of Hillary Clinton's candidacy, I've really tried hard to avoid direct criticism of him, and have honestly welcomed his presence in this race.

    Our party has really been blessed with two great candidates and speaking for myself only, I think last night's debate clearly demonstrated why Mrs. Clinton is the superior of the pair. That said, Sen. Sanders deserves all the credit in the world for openly daring and stridently urging Democrats to move leftward once again, and boldly reassert their own collective voice on behalf of those whose own needs and pleas have gone increasingly unheeded of late by Washington. And for that, he deserves our thanks and gratitude.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Odd (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 06:06:03 AM EST
    The latest effort came Thursday, when the Congressional Black Caucus PAC endorsed Clinton. At the Capitol Hill event, Rep. John Lewis of Georgia, a renowned civil rights leader, harshly criticized Sanders and discounted the senator's civil rights activism in the 1960s.

    "I never saw him. I never met him," Lewis said. "I was chair of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee for three years, 1963 to 1966. I met Hillary Clinton. I met President Clinton."

    From the book, Conversations: William Jefferson Clinton : from Hope to Harlem.

    http://tinyurl.com/gvlkfsz

    From the chapter on John Lewis:
    The first time I heard of Bill Clinton was in the early '70s. I was living in Georgia, working for the Southern Poverty Law organization, when someone told me about this young, emerging leader in Arkansas who served as attorney general, then later became governor.

    After he became involved with the Democratic Leadership Council, I would run into him from time to time. But it was one of his aides, Rodney Slater, who actually introduced us in 1991 and asked me if I would support his presidency.

    It happens (none / 0) (#145)
    by Farmboy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 07:27:23 AM EST
    I made a friend in grad school from one of my classes that, had you asked at the time, I would have said I'd just met that semester.

    Months later we discovered that we had undergrad friends in common and as part of the conversation we remembered meeting for the first time a decade earlier.

    So I can understand John Lewis having different memories at different times of meeting the Clintons and later working with them.

    Parent

    What Rep. Lewis said (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by Peter G on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:30:25 PM EST
    does not make a lot of sense to me, if what he meant was that he met Bill & Hillary both between 1963 and 1966, while chairing SNCC.  Bill & Hillary would not have been together then; they met at Yale, in Law School, in around 1970. Between 1963 and 1966 they were in high school or at most freshmen in college. Some high school students (and a lot of college students) did volunteer with SNCC and other civil rights groups in those days, but I have never heard that either of them did. Make no mistake, I hold John Lewis in the highest esteem, and have for years. But the statement he is quoted as having made yesterday, if quoted accurately, would be at best misleading, as it pertains to HRC.

    Parent
    Lol (none / 0) (#149)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 07:59:23 AM EST
    Not buying it. When discussing how he met Clinton for a book about Clinton, written years earlier, when his memories were more recent....Nahh

    When defending Madame Sec Lewis just .....
    Made something up

    Parent

    politics (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by pitachips on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 11:54:33 AM EST
    I don't think I ever heard Sanders make himself out to have been some great civil rights leader deserving of a place in history. Kind of sad to see Mr. Lewis play this role but pols will be pols right :)  

    Parent
    ... either here or any place else, to both question the veracity and impugn the integrity of such a man of stature as John Lewis. Here's a dollar. Go out and buy yourself a clue.

    Parent
    That (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:49:31 PM EST
    Has got to be one of the dumbest statements ever.

    When we as a people stop questioning our politicians veracity, just sign away our liberties.

    Lewis, while speaking to a Clinton biographer, NEVER ever mentioned seeing either Clinton during the civil rights efforts of the 60's.
    He did mention that he was first introduced to him in the 90's.
    Sorry if the fact that Mr Lewis was caught out making pronouncements out of school upsets you, the fact that he made them upsets me.
    He should have left it at He never saw Sanders .

    Parent

    NIB Old News (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by ragebot on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 10:54:36 AM EST
    DNC rolls back Obama ban on contributions from federal lobbyists

    This is the sort of thing that helps convince Bernie's supporters the DNC is in the bag for Hillary.  Not sure how well it will play in the general if Hillary beats Bernie and then tries to woo his supporters.

    With a few loudmouthed exceptions, ... (none / 0) (#188)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 11:45:52 AM EST
    ... Sen. Sanders' supporters generally aren't that petulant and myopic. They see the clown cars careening off the guardrails of the Highway to Hell that transcends the GOP's parallel universe, and they know exactly what's at stake in this election.

    Parent
    538 (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:45:33 PM EST
    Has a good read about superdelegates and embedded within is a chart that breaks down the percentage of superdelegates needed to win relative to the percentage of the elected delegates.  For example, if a candidate had 58.8% of the elected delegates, than said candidate will need 0% of the superdelegates, and down from there.

    The quote:

    "Superdelegates are mathematically relevant when a candidate has 41.2 percent to 58.8 percent of elected delegates. Below that range, a candidate couldn't win a first-ballot majority even with the votes of every superdelegate; above that range, the superdelegates' help wouldn't be necessary to clinch the nomination."

    Sanders Canned Responses (4.50 / 8) (#110)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:08:43 PM EST
    "Senator Sanders, you dropped a pen."

    "Our political process is controlled by billionaires and Wall Street executives."

    "It looks like a nice one.  Real silver, I think."

    "Just the top one percent has benefited in this economy."

    "Should I just pick it up for you?"

    "The Koch Brothers!"

    "Here's your pen."

    "Citizen's United."

    "Would you stop flapping your hands so you can take this pen."

    "I believe healthcare is a right not a privilege."

    "I'll just put your pen on this table over her."

    "We need a political revolution!"

    "Okay, goodbye, Senator Sanders."

    "My average donation is just $27!"

    Bernies is this, Bernie is that (4.25 / 4) (#210)
    by Dadler on Sat Feb 13, 2016 at 10:02:12 AM EST
    Jeez, Jeralyn, I had no idea you were the clairvoyant and omnipitent decider in what this election is. Hillary represents financial corruption and murderous war-hawkery who shares profound responsibly for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, these are just facts that should disturb anyone shilling for a pol. Asking people to support a candidate who lionizes Kissinger on the other hand, and then just tossing it off like so much nothing, when we are at war in every area of the world permanently, in huge measure thanks to that elderly evil sack of turd's policies and the resulting legacy of them we are all still paying for, and other, millions, have been murdered for. If she was taking advice from Cheney you'd have a problem obviously. A big one. If she was shilling for a sherrif you didn't like, you'd have a problem. So why is it cool for your preferred candidate to reveal much about her intellect and moral compass by sucking up to and actually LISTENING to a mass murderer who should still be in jail?

    Seriously, the blithe way you dismiss it is disturbing. You want a woman to be president, that seems obvious, and you are willing to overlook massive flaws in her political actions. You should just say that. The rest is cynicism and does not suit you, IMO.

    I will, of course, and with zero hope for anything but a status-quo to worse future, bote for Hillary in the general is in the general if she is the nominees. I will vote with a tad more hope for Sanders. A tad. That that is based entirely on record.

    Hillary's factual financial corruption and war hawkery are inexcusable and our countenancing of them as liberal is very VERY weird. Sanders at least has the courage to stand against the tide. THAT takes courage. Hillary sucking up to hedge funders and war criminals, give me a break. We're in a very sad state of affairs, and this is just more evidence.

    PBS (none / 0) (#1)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:06:28 PM EST
    No commercials!

    And no bathroom breaks.

    Wrong! Wt...? (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:09:26 PM EST
    Or not (none / 0) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:09:20 PM EST
    Who doesn't like trains though... (none / 0) (#4)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:10:48 PM EST
    Is it me (none / 0) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:12:32 PM EST
    Or is that not a great color for Hillary.

    (The over serious feel free to ignore fashion comment)

    Parent

    I like it. And she is (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:18:31 PM EST
    wearing the school colors of the campus, black and gold.  

    Parent
    Ah! Ok that makes sense. (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:23:34 PM EST
    Not just you...not a good look (none / 0) (#7)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:13:47 PM EST
    Not her best color. (none / 0) (#8)
    by caseyOR on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:13:52 PM EST
    The yellow is the color (none / 0) (#30)
    by MKS on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:37:37 PM EST
    from 2008 that they found was really well liked.

    Parent
    Wow, post-debate, the yellow is powerful (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:04:09 PM EST
    . . . in the many minutes of screen time, as the candidates and others roamed the stage, the rest just blurred into a field of black -- behind that brilliant yellow.  Clinton stands out, Sanders fades.

    I'm betting that was part of the planned optics.

    Parent

    Interesting (none / 0) (#32)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:42:25 PM EST
    Also it reminded me that shade of gold was always the "'power color' for Peggy on Mad Men.

    Clothes matter!

    Parent

    I don't think it's the color of the (none / 0) (#83)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:37:21 PM EST
    jacket that's the problem. My two cents: It's her foundation. It's too ivory for her skin tone, too light and very monochromatic. She looks too pale, and there's not enough color on the lower half of her eyelids. It's like someone painted her face with one brush, one color and didn't do any blending.

    (Since I'm watching on a hotel TV, it could be the TV set, but I don't think so. The other channels don't seem any different than my TV at home)

    Parent

    Yes- there is no color in her cheeks. (none / 0) (#85)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:41:05 PM EST
    The foundation is too heavy IMO.

    Parent
    I saw her on TV a couple of days ago (none / 0) (#101)
    by NYShooter on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:53:49 PM EST
    It was a one-on-one with a reporter/journalist/pundit. I was doing something else so that's as specific as I remember.

    But, my point is this:

    She looked absolutely fabulous.....so, bright, so energetic, eyes just sparkled. She spoke so eloquently, teeth shining, lips glimmering, smiling so invitingly. (I know I sound like a star-struck, puppy loving teenager, but, I'm just writing what I felt)

    But, the most important thing I took away from that interview was the thought, "WOW, if you could only come across like this every time the cameras are on you, you simply cannot be beaten! Period, end of sentence.

    Epilogue: Appearance, image, optics are indispensable if you expect to win that ultimate Presidential Trophy.

    Parent

    I think I read that there is a break (none / 0) (#40)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:58:08 PM EST
    and with another restroom added, closer to the stage, this time -- so that one candidate (Clinton that time) doesn't get sent much farther away for, um, facilities.

    Parent
    About 1000 marchers (none / 0) (#5)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:12:16 PM EST
    and ralliers for candidates and myriad causes have been braving the below-zero wind chill outside the debate site for hours.

    That's about twice the number of national media nice and warm in the campus union, across the street from the building that is the debate site.  (Interestingly, it's a former synagogue, now a concert hall.)

    Beautiful facility (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:15:22 PM EST
    Glad the people are coming out. They are a hardy bunch!

    Parent
    What Building Were They In ? (none / 0) (#180)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 11:05:10 AM EST
    I went to UW-Milwaukee for 3 years.  

    I remember those cold days, F, because parking was such a mess and I lived about 6 blocks away I mountain biked it every day.

    Houston is getting a republican debate at UofH.

    Parent

    Hillarys outfit (none / 0) (#12)
    by AnnL on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:21:16 PM EST
    Why does it matter what she's wearing? I find that annoying

    Would you feel better (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:23:41 PM EST
    If we talk about what Bernies wearing?   At least it's not brown.

    Parent
    Boxers or briefs? (none / 0) (#18)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:25:55 PM EST
    Thanks for the mental image (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:26:47 PM EST
    Bernie says briefs (none / 0) (#77)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:31:47 PM EST
    (He was asked on the Ellen DeGeneres show)

    Parent
    OH man! (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:33:30 PM EST
    See, now I have to visualize that!

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#13)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:22:09 PM EST
    It was to add a little levity

    Parent
    It does not matter at all. (none / 0) (#14)
    by caseyOR on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:22:54 PM EST
    Just idle comments, that is all. No judgement .

    Parent
    it's not that it matters (none / 0) (#95)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:51:59 PM EST
    it's that it's interesting -- at least to me, what candidates (and all public figures and celebrities) choose to wear on any given occasion. Their makeup and hair also interests me.

    During the Republican debates, I blogged about some of the candidate's ill-fitting suit jackets. It's not only interesting for female candidates.

    I think Hillary's jacket style tonight (the Nehru like collar) is very dated and doesn't send the right message. It does not project a contemporary image, but one from the 60's. If she wants to attract younger voters, she should try to look like someone they might identify with or even better, emulate.

    The Nehru jacket fad ended within just a few years. Suddenly the Nehru jacket became a symbol not only of dated and out-of-style clothing, but also of the type of person who still wore the jacket. The Nehru jacket came to represent an aging loser, trying unsuccessfully to be hip and cool, an image that has persisted for decades.


    Parent
    I wore a Nehru jacket (none / 0) (#119)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:25:28 PM EST
    To my senior prom in 1969.

    No kidding.  Red.

    Parent

    Why am I not surprised? (none / 0) (#122)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:32:19 PM EST
    You probably looked like a Beatle!

    Parent
    There are pictures (none / 0) (#125)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:35:56 PM EST
    Not sure I love you that much

    Parent
    That's ok, my mental image is good enough! (none / 0) (#126)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:38:57 PM EST
    Male classical muscians frequently appear (none / 0) (#138)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 02:47:18 AM EST
    in Nehru-esque jackets whereas as wearing tails was de riguer in the past.

    Parent
    Clothes (none / 0) (#16)
    by AnnL on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:23:41 PM EST
     Sorry I've gotten a little sensitive about the clothing issue

    We may never agree on this point, but, (none / 0) (#117)
    by NYShooter on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:23:31 PM EST
    I'd like to hear a logical explanation regarding this from you, because, frankly, it makes no sense to me.

    "Why does it matter what she's wearing? I find that annoying."

    So, I don't believe we have any disagreement on the fact that people vote for candidates for a variety of different reasons. No reason to list all those variables, right?

    Now, assume you're a candidate for whatever office, and, as part of your preparation for your campaign your campaign manager organizes a variety of "focus groups." So, these focus groups watch you giving the speech 6 times, and, wearing a different color outfit for each.

    The violet color outfit scores 80% better for every group, regardless of any other variable. Now, you know where I'm going with this line of reasoning. Are you seriously telling me that you feel so strongly that completely irrelevant things, like what color clothes to wear, would leave you rejecting the focus group's findings?

    Would you really "stand on your principals," even with the probability, or, certainty, of losing the election taking this action?

    Well, I don't believe you would reject the obvious advise/conclusion. And, if that's so, why do you argue so vociferously for that position, knowing that it's just counter-productive?

    What am I missing?  

    Parent

    So far .. (none / 0) (#21)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:27:53 PM EST
    Bernie is looking flustered and angry.  And occasionally he has seemed to think he was at a rally, expecting a verbal response from the audience.

    He seems to have (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:32:11 PM EST
    One mode.   I guess it either works for you or it doesn't.

    Parent
    I've seen him ... (none / 0) (#27)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:34:53 PM EST
    looking more relaxed and good-natured.

    Parent
    Does seem (none / 0) (#28)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:36:58 PM EST
    To be channeling Larry David

    Parent
    And NOT in ... (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:43:05 PM EST
    a pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty good way

    ;)

    Parent

    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:45:42 PM EST
    the pundits seem to have stopped fluffing him tonight with this debate performance. Especially bad was his comment "you're not in the WH yet"

    Parent
    Racism (none / 0) (#31)
    by AnnL on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:41:44 PM EST
    How are you white people going to fix this. Huh?

    What the hell (none / 0) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:43:31 PM EST
    Kind of question was that?

    Parent
    I mean the one (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:44:44 PM EST
    About white people being rightfully resentful.  

    Parent
    That was the 'how are you going to woo (none / 0) (#39)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 08:55:09 PM EST
    the Trump voter ' question.

    Parent
    I honestly don't know how you woo them. (none / 0) (#59)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:21:17 PM EST
    I'd leave that for establishment Republicans to try and figure out. I don't think we need them, and we're not likely to get them anyway. So why bother, really?

    Parent
    Here I go again (none / 0) (#129)
    by NYShooter on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:41:38 PM EST
    Saw a really brilliant, I believe he was a psychiatrist, explaining this actual phenomenon the other day. And, he, actually, interpreted it pretty much how you did, Donald.

    This wasn't simply an off-the-cuff opinion, either. It seemed he/they had actually studied it conclusively. His conclusion was (and, I'm really, really paraphrasing this) that Trump's hard-core followers are the lowest of the low, incontrovertibly dense, Troglodytes (yes, he used this word,) "truly "Zombie" like, (again, he used that term) and, from the very, very beginning formed their opinion, and, no new evidence could possibly alter their decision. I don't recall the medical term for this type of personality, but, at least its good to know they exist, and that there's no reason to expend any time & energy trying to think of ways to "get" to them.

    Parent

    Social Security (none / 0) (#41)
    by AnnL on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:00:08 PM EST
    Stupid

    Donald (none / 0) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:02:39 PM EST
    Said pretty much all the same things last night.   Nice to know we all like Social Security.

    Parent
    I've thought Hillary won all previous debates.... (none / 0) (#43)
    by magster on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:02:41 PM EST
    ... but Sanders is winning this one, IMO.

    Is there two debates? (none / 0) (#46)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:05:30 PM EST
    I'm with you (none / 0) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:06:42 PM EST
    Everybody is talking about how bad Bernie is at this debate.

    Parent
    To me, she seems defensive.... (none / 0) (#49)
    by magster on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:07:56 PM EST
    ... and he's controlling the narrative.

    I thought he crushed her on the Central American refugee issue, too.

    Parent

    If you say so (none / 0) (#51)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:09:40 PM EST
    It's just my opinion... (none / 0) (#53)
    by magster on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:13:02 PM EST
    ...doesn't mean cr@p.

    Parent
    It's as valid as mine (none / 0) (#56)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:18:35 PM EST
    But it's not mine.  I think that thing about the children was a great example of the difference between them.    It's a very difficult issue.  The easy popular thing to say is, of course we should take all the children.  The fact is she is absolutely right they tried to stop it for a very good reason.  Children were being adjusted and exploited and even dying in the process.  I had to be stopped.

    Parent
    Um (none / 0) (#60)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:21:26 PM EST
    They were being ABUSED not ADJUSTED

    Parent
    I am seeing generalized (none / 0) (#52)
    by MKS on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:11:43 PM EST
    talking points from Bernie.  Hillary is her usual specific self and looks confident.

    Parent
    Stupid pundit (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:15:06 PM EST
    Just praised him for that.

    Facts and knowledge from Hillary.

    Ideas and inspiration from Bernie.  No specifics but "he doesn't need to"

    God help us.
     

    Parent

    I know why he does so well with students (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:35:41 PM EST
    He stays about at the level of my dorm room rants, circa 1979. Doesn't mean he is wrong....I just want more information than I already had 40 years ago.

    Parent
    Some (none / 0) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:21:32 PM EST
    of the pundits are saying Bernie "doesn't think he has to answer the questions". Seriously I wonder if he even hears the questions sometimes. His response is so off the wall.

    Parent
    Hmmmm (none / 0) (#65)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:24:39 PM EST
    Who else in this race does that sound like??

    I DIDNT SAY IT!

    Parent

    Let me guess (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:27:45 PM EST
    Starts with an R? All of a sudden now everybody seems to notice that but it's been going on the entire time.

    Parent
    D (none / 0) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:29:31 PM EST
    actually

    Parent
    This is Bernie's worst debate ... (none / 0) (#55)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:17:23 PM EST
    since the first one.

    He just doesn't seem ready for prime time tonight.

    Parent

    Agree totally (none / 0) (#58)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:19:44 PM EST
    If he flaps his arms any more furiously he will fly right off the stage.

    Parent
    I think he did ... (none / 0) (#72)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:29:13 PM EST
    he seems to be getting his questions from somewhere up in the rafters.

    Parent
    She steps on Gwen (none / 0) (#44)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:04:35 PM EST
    And she is not happy.  I am happy

    The more (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:06:03 PM EST
    she steps on the media the happier it makes the rest of us for sure.

    Parent
    Seniors (none / 0) (#45)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:05:27 PM EST
    and $16 in food stamps and the answer is millionaires and billionaires?

    Seniors (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by AnnL on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:09:02 PM EST
    It's always millionaires and billionaires. It's all he's got

    Parent
    The President of the United States (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Peter G on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:22:04 PM EST
    cannot change terrible state and local laws fostered by reactionary Republican no-nothing governors. Not all power is federal; most political decisions in the country that affect people's lives are made at the state level. All the President could do about that grandpa's situation is encourage people to vote the reactionaries out of the state legislatures and governors' mansions. I wish one of them had said so.  

    Parent
    Know-nothing (none / 0) (#113)
    by Peter G on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:19:12 PM EST
    as well as "no-nothing"! oops.

    Parent
    "No-nothing" works, too. (none / 0) (#139)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 03:41:30 AM EST
    Ask Gov. Brownback if he's going to restore funding for elementary and primary education to their former levels and he responds, "No, nothing."

    Parent
    That's why, in my self-correction, (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Peter G on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 09:10:59 AM EST
    I wrote, "as well as," not "rather than."

    Parent
    I just replayed (none / 0) (#57)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:19:39 PM EST
    it, and Charles Blow is right in his (tweeted) summary:

    Race relations would be better under a Sanders Administration than now is what you're saying?

    Sanders: Absolutely.

    Cripes.  Count on a column on that.

    Yes (none / 0) (#64)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:23:22 PM EST
    and we have to get black people off the street corner or some such.

    Parent
    Foreign policy (none / 0) (#63)
    by AnnL on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:22:04 PM EST
    I didn't vote for the Iraq war. One trick pony

    Two trick pony (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by CoralGables on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:34:32 PM EST
    One domestic, one foreign:

    Millionaires, billionaires; I voted against the Iraq war.

    This from the wrap-up on Sanders tonight by Taegan Goddard:

    Sanders seemed tired, rarely smiled and was best when he was angry. He's still great at framing the key issues of the campaign. But his phrasing is so similar in every debate that he may soon be accused of having a Marco Rubio robot problem.


    Parent
    Reminds me of a great line from ALIEN (none / 0) (#128)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:39:39 PM EST
    "Was it an older model?"

    "Yeah, Hyperdyne Systems 120-A2"

    "Oh well, that the problem.  The A2s always were a bit twitchy."

    Parent

    A Eugene Debs Robot? (none / 0) (#133)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:54:22 PM EST
    I'll settle for that.

    Sounds like Jackie Green had a better night than my boy Bernie, but y'all biased as f#ck. Don't make me go to MSNBC ;)

    Now I don't know but I been told
    If the horse don't pull you got to carry the load.
    I don't know whose back's that strong, maybe find out before too long



    Parent

    FP (none / 0) (#166)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 10:21:15 AM EST
    His attack on her re: foreign policy is, "You've got a bit of experience.....but judgment mayters as well."  He mentioned his vote against the war in Iraq, but he also criticized her on Libya.  Basically, (I think), his argument here was that we shouldn't back regime change if we don't know what comes afterwards.

    Ok.

    Couldn't (and shouldn't) that argument / logic be turned against him re:domestic policy?  You can't upend and destroy all health insurance programs (and yes, that would include Medicare, as his version of Medicare is not what's currently out there) if you don't know the ramifications of what comes afterwards?

    Parent

    Real affective leading that opposition... (none / 0) (#66)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:25:43 PM EST


    Excuse.me, effective (none / 0) (#68)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:26:28 PM EST
    I have no doub he was affective

    Parent
    Cambodia? (none / 0) (#69)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:27:32 PM EST
    Holy hell

    Welcome to the first presidential debate ... (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:29:49 PM EST
    of 1968!

    Parent
    1968 (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by AnnL on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:34:57 PM EST
    Too funny

    Parent
    1970 (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Peter G on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:20:01 PM EST
    actually

    Parent
    LMBO (none / 0) (#84)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:40:03 PM EST
    You're right. Even Kissinger was mentioned. I have to wonder do his voters even know what he is talking about? Wikipedia might be blowing up about now.

    Parent
    Hey (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 05:11:14 AM EST
    There are those around here who like to keep playing the Kissinger card, so it resonates with some people....

    Parent
    Mentioned? They talked about him more than (none / 0) (#86)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:41:52 PM EST
    Lloyd Blankfein.

    Parent
    And now ... (none / 0) (#87)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:45:00 PM EST
    Churchill.

    ;)

    Parent

    HRC coming back with Mandela (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by Peter G on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:25:01 PM EST
    to BS's Churchill was absolutely brilliant. The best single response of the night, imho. (Are his would-be-presidential initials reall BS? I just realized that ...)

    Parent
    Nope (none / 0) (#89)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:45:57 PM EST
    Obama!  

    We knew this was coming.

    Parent

    Oh SNAP! (none / 0) (#91)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:46:57 PM EST
    A low blow?   Thanks god for video.

    Parent
    Ok (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:48:10 PM EST
    He lined it up

    Go for it Hilary.

    Parent

    A deserved hit (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:48:53 PM EST
    and now he is denying his attacks on Obama.

    There goes his "honesty."

    Parent

    Hillary walks away with this (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:51:59 PM EST
    To much foundation or not.

    IMO

    Parent

    Go wash your face Hillary! You earned it! (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:55:53 PM EST
    And why does he think the right comeback (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:23:16 PM EST
    is to critique her for running against Obama in 2008. Horrible response.

    Part of me wants to see him debate Trump and Cruz. What a horror show that would be.

    Parent

    And Chinadadadada (none / 0) (#75)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:31:31 PM EST
    da.

    Parent
    Is that near Crimeria? (none / 0) (#82)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:36:19 PM EST
    Ok, now I'm just being mean.

    Parent
    How many more of these are there? (none / 0) (#94)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:51:16 PM EST
    I may not skip How to Get Away With Murder for the next one.

    "say tuned for analysis of the debate" (none / 0) (#102)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:54:11 PM EST
    and gooodbye

    I'm a Hilbot fer shur (none / 0) (#106)
    by Trickster on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 09:58:57 PM EST
    And I thought she easily won the part of the debate I watched.

    But the crowd was unfair to Sanders.  Not mean to him, just applauding 1000X more for her.  I hate it when the crowd interjects itself into a Presidential debate.

    If we (none / 0) (#107)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 10:02:49 PM EST
    really went back to League of Women voters doing debates I guess we still would have people in the audience however it probably would be a lot more informative.

    Parent
    If Bernie's "Vietnam Flashback" ... (none / 0) (#146)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 07:41:52 AM EST
    moment goes viral this could be real bad news for the Sanders campaign.

    And it looks like just the kind of moment that Halperin and Heilemann will ridicule on "With All Due Respect".  Complete with trippy psychedelic music.

    That could carry it over the holiday weekend.

    First Mr. Roboto and now Jefferson Sandship.

    These debates are starting to get entertaining.

    That (none / 0) (#148)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 07:57:33 AM EST
    was just bizarre and kind of reinforces the thinking that he's stuck in the past.

    Parent
    If it was anyone else (none / 0) (#150)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 08:07:21 AM EST
    Some will but if the "dippy duo" say anything critical if Bernie I will be very surprised.

    Parent
    You pretty much covered it Mr Blackwell (none / 0) (#152)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 08:14:29 AM EST
    Here's something: he never had even a remote chance of winning the nomination.

    Parent
    Sounding the tiniest bit bitter (none / 0) (#154)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 08:30:46 AM EST
    >b r e a t h<

    Parent
    Guilty.. (none / 0) (#178)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 10:59:02 AM EST
    so sue me.

    I'm gonna go read The Devil's Dictionary again to get in a better mood.

    Parent

    If Sanders is answering questions ... (none / 0) (#153)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 08:28:19 AM EST
    about Vietnam all weekend.  That will be extremely bad news for the campaign.

    Parent
    Been watching Halperin (none / 0) (#156)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 08:33:17 AM EST
    For 20 minutes on Mourning Joe.  Grudging admission that Hillary killed it.  No mention of Cambodia.    

    Parent
    Heilemann is more ... (none / 0) (#157)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 08:37:45 AM EST
    the comedian.

    And this is the kind of thing that can grow throughout the day.

    They will be getting emails on this all morning.

    And the TPM video went from under 200 hits to over 5,000 hits since 9AM.

    Parent

    I missed this last night (none / 0) (#159)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 08:49:11 AM EST
    The whole thing is ... (none / 0) (#161)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 08:55:06 AM EST
    funny.

    Pro-Bernie folks are trying to spin that as a bad moment for the moderators.

    Okay ...

    But it's Bernie that's hilarious.

    He reminds me of my Brooklyn uncles rambling incoherently about some nonsense.

    Parent

    When the moon is in the seventh house.. (none / 0) (#199)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:43:02 PM EST
    Yeah, you'd think she had personally thrown someone they knew into a Death Row hellhole and lethally injected them.

    Parent
    Props (none / 0) (#205)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:54:18 PM EST
    for the line from the perfect song to hum at that point in the debate.

    Or gliddy gloop gloopy nibby nobby nooby Chinadadadada.

    Parent

    Right..history is bunk (none / 0) (#151)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 08:09:58 AM EST
    Since you're so smart Bob, maybe you can explain to me all the positives that have resulted from China "opening up".

    Parent
    It was just a bizarre ... (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 08:32:51 AM EST
    cue laser lights, bring out the lava lamp, moment.

    You know I've heard the one pill makes Bernie larger, and one makes him small, and the one that mother gives him don't do anything at all.

    Parent

    And a few million executions and (none / 0) (#173)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 10:50:51 AM EST
    political prisoners makes people cease to exist at all..

    Parent
    The Context of the Cold War (none / 0) (#165)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 09:53:39 AM EST
    When I was a kid, we all assumed that we all would die in a nuclear conflagration.  It was only a matter of time.

    Nixon's going to China and the détente with Brezhnev made the world safer.  Less likely to nuke itself.  That was a big deal at the time.  

    Trade deals with China?  Furthest thing in the mind of anyone.  The big deal was the ping pong matches, Nixon walking the Great Wall, and the West's discovery of acupuncture.

    Parent

    Trade deals were why ... (none / 0) (#170)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 10:41:04 AM EST
    Nixon went to China.

    As someone said at the time, "Just imagine if you could just sell one Bic pen to everyone in China?"

    Parent

    or one surveillance camera.. (none / 0) (#175)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 10:55:50 AM EST
    one taser..one rubber truncheon..

    But, worrying about that kind of thing is for the hippies.

    Yeah, it's really opened up over there.

    Speaking of the sixties, I haven't come against so suspended critical thinking since the last time I was accosted by the Children of God.

    Sri Rama Hillary said it, so who are we to question it?

    Parent

    come across so much suspended.. (none / 0) (#185)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 11:27:59 AM EST
    Would you rather prefer that China ... (none / 0) (#186)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 11:35:43 AM EST
    ... had remained insular and isolated from the world community at large, to have instead evolved into an inherently unstable and gargantuan equivalent of today's North Korea? Because in the aftermath of the disastrous Cultural Revolution, that's exactly where Chairman Mao Zedong was taking the Chinese, had not Henry Kissinger seized the opportunity to create an opening with Premier Chou En-lai.

    While Kissinger's shortcomings clearly outweigh his virtues and attributes, his arrangement of President Nixon's landmark 1972 trip to China was the right and responsible thing to do, as was President Carter's decision seven years later to recognize Beijing rather than Taipei as the legitimate seat of government for that country. The iron grip with which the Cold War had held us all at the time started to weaken if ever so slightly, and the world itself eventually became a safer place for it.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I keep hearing this word "opening" (none / 0) (#194)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:25:30 PM EST
    and sorry, but I'm not seeing much meaningful opening.

    More people with more money as some sort of final justification for repression and brutality sounds suspiciously like Marxist-Leninist materialism in gussied-up neoliberal form with a little trickle-down thrown in for good measure..

    And, since when do we just shut our mouths and behave outselves when our leaders take advice from people who see torturing people to death in front of their families as a way to bring stability to South American countries?

    Parent

    Perhaps some thought (none / 0) (#204)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:50:07 PM EST
    about trade with China in the abstract.

    But the China of that time was not that far removed from the cultural revolution.

    The Japanese were ready for trade with the U.S.

    The trade with China and offshoring of manufacturing to China occurred much, much later.

    Nixon's trip to China was more political and cultural than economic.  

    Parent

    I get your point (none / 0) (#179)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 11:03:07 AM EST
    but I'm not sure about the "anyone" part..

    The mind hearkens back to Armand Hammer selling widgets, thimble-rigs, playdough, and French postcards to Lenin..

    Parent

    Eugene McCarthy (none / 0) (#158)
    by RickyJim on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 08:39:10 AM EST
    I am surprised to see the lack of comparisons of Sanders with the presidential campaigns of Gene McCarthy starting in 1968.  They both found their strongest support among the college age crowd.  Gene never was as successful as Bernie has been but his strong New Hampshire primary showing in 1968 is credited with causing incumbent President Lyndon B Johnson drop his reelection campaign.  

    If McCarthy (none / 0) (#160)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 08:51:45 AM EST
    Had social media......who knows

    Parent
    George McGovern is the (none / 0) (#164)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 09:26:39 AM EST
    successful model (of getting the nomination) of what Bernie is trying to do.

    Parent
    His campaign (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 10:23:29 AM EST
    adviser Tad Devine says he's going to lead Bernie to the nomination the same way he lead Dukakis in 1988. Ye gods do these stupid campaign aides ever learn anything?

    Parent
    But it doesn't work against ... (none / 0) (#171)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 10:47:30 AM EST
    a single opponent.

    Gary Hart learned that in 1984.  And Hart was a much better candidate (in sheer political skills) than Sanders.  And Mondale was much worse than Clinton.

    I doubt Sanders will do anywhere near as well as Hart.

    Obama could get the model to work because he added a new wrinkle ... the black vote.  And still he just won it by a whisker.

    Demography is destiny.  

    The only way Sanders could win is if some outside force derails Clinton's campaign.

    Parent

    Also I don't think Sanders ... (none / 0) (#172)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 10:49:15 AM EST
    has a dirty tricks operation in the White House picking off his opponents.

    Parent
    He has definitely had (none / 0) (#176)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 10:56:35 AM EST
    The "liberal media" on his side carrying as much water for him as they possibly can.

    Could that be changing?   Could, for example, MSNBC be beginning to get the message that they are plenty of viewers, like me, who have had it with the relentless 24/7 Bernie fluffing?

    Who knows.

    But the idiotic "Bing pulse" question of the day is "has the democratic race turned into a referendum on Bernie Sanders"

    Parent

    The media (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 11:06:28 AM EST
    has been a big part of the problem. If they were as tough on Bernie as they are on Hillary nobody would be saying anything. But treating one like a special snowflake has caused a lot of the problems. And i would say the same thing if they were treating Hillary like a special snowflake because it doesn't help.

    Parent
    Andrea and Chuck (none / 0) (#183)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 11:20:57 AM EST
    Agree it's now a referendum on Bernie.  I guess that the memo today.

    Parent
    And (none / 0) (#198)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:33:16 PM EST
    that is as completely stupid as the other stuff they have been spewing. We've had two states vote. Hillary won one and Bernie won one. Onward and upward.

    Parent
    He's not getting the kind of treatment ... (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 11:27:12 AM EST
    Obama got. Nor the level of exposure.

    They've spent most of this cycle talking about Trump.

    But still ...

    Demography is destiny. And no matter what Sanders does he'll hit that brick wall.

    Parent

    Maybe (none / 0) (#189)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 11:46:39 AM EST
    What they have realized is that they need to start talking these people down instead of whipping them up.   Like talking a person off a ledge.

    Just, while cooking, listening to an interesting conversation on MSNBC that was not kind to Bernie about the fake photo.

    Pretty sure you would not have heard that a few days ago.

    Parent

    Kissinger dragging the charred corpses (none / 0) (#201)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:48:04 PM EST
    of Laotion children out on the stage..(eight miles high..)

    It would have to something radical, dramatic and unforeseen.

    Baring that, everyone knows she's got it sewn up.

    Parent

    Wonder what Bernie would say ... (none / 0) (#162)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 08:59:31 AM EST
    about McCarthy's campaign funding?

    Almost all his support can from the wacky multimillionaire (probably billionaire in today's dollars) Stewart R. Mott.

    Parent

    Jason Linkins Explains Superdelegates (none / 0) (#187)
    by RickyJim on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 11:45:10 AM EST
    A rather good explanation of how it works and effects the 2016 Democratic nomination.  Without Sanders being ahead, among ordinary delegates by a significant amount by the convention, it looks like Clinton will get most of the superdelegates.

    Move on (none / 0) (#190)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 11:48:16 AM EST
    Is having a hissy fit about this.   Listening to one on MSNBC right now.  

    Parent
    To be fair (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by smott on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:09:19 PM EST
    Super delegates kind of defeat the whole purpose of voting .
    Really a knee jerk after McGovern by the party.

    Good interview w Jill Stein re that....with my new found linking skills I'll try to post it!!

    Parent

    The irony (none / 0) (#196)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:31:07 PM EST
    on this is so thick I don't even know where to begin. Back in 2008 many people wanted primary reform. It didn't happen so here we are. Move On just now complaining about this just shows how idiotic they are.

    IMO we do need primary reform with the super delegates.

    Parent

    Since the open is full (none / 0) (#193)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:14:15 PM EST
    I have to mention the kerfuffel Cruz.

    While whining and pi$$ing and moaning about Donalds awful "vulgar language" Cruz has to pull an ad because the star is a porn star.

    Pfffffft

    Donald will have some fun with this.

    Total B.S. (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by Peter G on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:33:16 PM EST
    Hardly a "porn star." A working actress in Los Angeles, who has appeared on TV and also made some "soft core" films (topless, no actual sex). Seriously, progressives and liberals should have nothing to say about this, except perhaps to criticize Cruz for holding the actress's film credits against her.

    Parent
    I completely agree (none / 0) (#203)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:49:46 PM EST
    But considering where Cruz has been and clearly is willing to "go" no sympathy here.  The holier than tho krap is a double edged sword.

    Parent
    I still want to know (none / 0) (#206)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 12:56:17 PM EST
    Who, on the Cruz team, said "hey!  I've seen HER before!"

    Parent
    Super delegates (none / 0) (#207)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 01:07:11 PM EST
    Are a rather undemocratic concept.

    You want to talk about changing that?  Terrific.  Let's do that.

    But you are not going to change the rules in the middle of the game because they are not helping your team.

    Amy Lindsay, thr Acress in Cruz's Ad (none / 0) (#208)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 03:45:19 PM EST
    Just caught a huge break, and while they are labeling her a porn actress, she is not.  She is from Houston.

    What I can't figure out is why she is bad to have in a commercial for Cruz.  I am sure he wouldn't pass on using well know actors who have show skin on the big screen, or is showing skin bad if the movie is about showing skin ?

    IMDB (none / 0) (#209)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Feb 12, 2016 at 05:44:49 PM EST
    on the Actress Amy Lindsay.

    Softcore is to porn as the keyboard tribalism of these threads is to inserting oneself physically into the pains and heartbreak of a real political contest.

    Wow, worst proofreading ever (none / 0) (#211)
    by Dadler on Sat Feb 13, 2016 at 10:04:06 AM EST
    And a keyboard, I just figured out, that is toast.

    Oh well.

    One of the great lines today (none / 0) (#212)
    by CoralGables on Sat Feb 13, 2016 at 10:52:38 AM EST
    Scott you have me laughing wondering where you might have been going with this one...

    "...and while they are labeling her a porn actress, she is not.  She is from Houston."

    I'm sure (none / 0) (#213)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 13, 2016 at 11:24:53 AM EST
    Sex Spa Ii, Casting Couch,  Passion Lane, Perfumed Garden, Passions Desire, Kinky Sex Club and Insatiable Obsession are very serious work.

    Look, I could care less if she did p0rn but come on.

    The funny part of this is Cruz holier than tho krap getting tripped up.

    Btw

    That's just the best titles.