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Open Thread for College Campus Protests

I am not writing about the Israel-Hamas war, or as of yet, the protests on college campuses. But I know everyone has strong feelings about the protests. And many readers do want to discuss them. So here's an open thread for those of you who do want to discuss these topics.

Keep in mind TalkLeft is not the government and what you consider free speech may differ from my interpretation of acceptable speech. And since this is my site, my interpretation prevails. [More...]

As a related side-note, I still follow the Twitter feeds of several ISIS/Syria researchers, most of whom are now covering ISIS in Africa. One who has a different focus is Aymenn J. Al-Tamimi, who writes primarily about Syria, but may be best known for his multi-lingual abilities, and his translation of an encyclopedic amount of ISIS-created documents from Arabic into English.

He doesn't usually offer political opinions, he considers himself a researcher, not a journalist or pundit. The other day, he wrote a column about the pro-Palestinian campus protests and the concept of Cognitive Egocentrism, which I recommend as thoughtful reading.

The term ‘cognitive egocentrism’ was long ago coined by Richard Landes to describe the phenomenon of projecting one’s own assumptions and ideals about the world onto others.

...Leaving aside questions of rights and wrongs, it seems to me that any political cause needs to be understood and dealt with according to the realities on the ground, and not on the basis of wishful thinking on the part of outsiders. Thus, the Palestinian cause and what represents it are defined principally by the Palestinians themselves who are on the ground in the Palestinian territories and the Palestinian factions that represent them.

When this point is borne in mind, it becomes apparent that some of the discourse about the Palestinian cause in the pro-Palestine protests and wider advocacy in Western countries is well out of touch with those realities, and instead projects its own intellectual fantasies and ideals onto the Palestinian cause.

After providing a lot of examples of the intellecutal fantasies of outsiders, including ones he personally experienced during time he spent there, he concludes:

None of the above should be read as advocacy for one side or the other in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It is simply an analysis of how some activism and advocacy for the Palestinian cause in the West reflects cognitive egocentrism described by Landes so long ago, as some project their idealised perceptions and pet causes onto the Palestinian cause in a way that is divorced from sober ground truths. In other words, there is an emotional and romanticised identification with the cause, but not one that has been well thought through.

On yet another different but related topic, you will not find me comparing the 1968 Vietnam War protests at Columbia and other colleges, or the actions of SDS and the Weather Underground or the 1970 Kent State tragedy, when members of the U.S. National Guard who had been called in to stop a campus protest killed four protesting students, to today's campus protests.

The 1960's were unique. No amount of magical thinking will resurrect them. Those of us who were fortunate to have lived in the midst of events of the decade, know that there will never be another Woodstock, another Richard Nixon, or another Hunter Thompson (RIP Hunter). There will never be another peaceful war protest with 500,000 college kids like the one at the Washington Monument, scenes from which are in the movie Forest Gump.

The 1960's were about peace, love, drugs, sex and freedom. What will always be missing from the current protests and future protests is love. Dissidence is the voice of the decade, not peace, hugs, or drugs that make you happy.

That said, there well may be another Altamont, which brought the 60's era to a crashing end.

From what I can tell, today's protests are rooted in hate and being run by professional groups of outside agitators who know all too well how to attract disaffected and naive college students, who care mostly about being socially accepted by their peers, and are not about to do any research on the underlying topic. They are fine picking up the phrase of the day they hear coming from a bullhorn.

Today's protests don't represent a free speech condundrum to me. All public speech has limitations, one of which is that you cannot call for the death, assault or banishment by force of any specific group within society.

If you wandered in here by accident, please read our comment policy. TalkLeft is a not a junkyard for you to dump your most hateful thoughts. Understand that any comment I view as anti-semitic will be deleted. And that in my view, a comment doesn't lose its anti-semitic character by substituting the word "Zionist" for "Israeli" or "Jewish person".

Hate, insults, personal attacks, name-calling, and calls for violence against any individual or group, will be deleted -- this includes referring to the Israeli-Hamas war as a genocide or a holocaust, which I personally find offensive.

If you take five minutes, you will find that you can express your position quite clearly without using profanity or emotionally charged accusations.

Please keep your comments in this thread related to the pro-Palestinian campus protests, the responses by the colleges, and the involvement of our police and military and comparisons to protests of other eras.

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  • Display: Sort:
    LIkely TYPO (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by jmacWA on Fri May 03, 2024 at 05:10:23 AM EST
    TalkLeft is a ^^^ junkyard for you to dump your most hateful thoughts.

    I am quite certain the word NOT is missing.

    you are quite right and quite the eagle eye today. (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Sat May 04, 2024 at 04:34:09 AM EST
    Thanks, I'll fix it in the a.m.

    Parent
    What student protestors want (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by john horse on Sat May 04, 2024 at 10:31:25 AM EST
    From what I can tell, today's protests are rooted in hate. . .

    The Israeli government has killed over 34,000 Palestinians in Gaza, the vast majority of whom were civilians, including many women and children.  They have destroyed hospitals, mosques, schools and homes.  They have killed hundreds of aid workers and journalists.  They have hindered the delivery of food, water, and humanitarian aid.  What the Israeli government is doing in Gaza is rooted in hate.  What Hamas did on October 6 was rooted in hate.  I fail to see how criticism of Israeli policies in Gaza is "rooted in hate".

    From what I can tell, today's protests are . . . being run by professional groups of outside agitators who know all too well how to attract disaffected and naive college students, who care mostly about being socially accepted by their peers, and are not about to do any research on the underlying topic.

    Do you believe that students don't have the agency to think for themselves?  Who are these "outside agitators"?  To be clear, I'm not saying that some of the protestors on campuses aren't students but that is not the claim you are making.  Your claim is that the student protest is being "run by professional group of outside agitators."  What evidence do you have for this?

    What campus protestors want varies, but from what I could gather what they generally want is divestment by colleges from companies that are aiding Israelis war effort.  (not dissimilar to the divestment movement against the apartheid South African government in the 70s)
    I think many of these students also favor a ceasefire in Gaza (as does President Biden) and the end of US military aid to Israel (which Biden doesn't favor).

    By the way I think Jeralyn's suggestion that students "research the underlying topic" is good advice.  I would just also apply it to those of us who aren't students.

    I agree almost entirely with this comment (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Peter G on Sat May 04, 2024 at 12:42:56 PM EST
    and unfortunately must disagree in several respects with our host, my old friend J. Today is May 4, the anniversary of the shootings at Kent State. That indelible memory should teach a never-to-be-forgotten lesson about why calling out armed police -- or worse, the National Guard -- to quell a nonviolent (even if angry) demonstration will almost always make matters worse, not better.
       On May 1, 1970, I was a college junior, but I had been at home for six weeks, in bed, a hundred miles from my campus, on a semester's medical leave recovering from mononucleosis. (The mono was brought on by the prior three months of two all-nighters a week as editor-in-chief of our college newspaper, along with a full load of classes, social life, antiwar political activity, etc.) I was deeply disturbed by the news of Nixon's expansion of the Vietnam War into Cambodia, but it was not until May 4 that I was jolted out of bed, compelled to return to campus to join my peers in protest. But those protests (like me as an individual) were antiwar, not pro-Vietcong or pro-Ho Chi Minh, much less anti-American. Even though some of the many demonstrations I joined included individuals, who I tried to stay away from, who were pro-Vietcong and did root for America's military defeat.
       Likewise, I understand today's protests (to the limited extent I can understand them as a much-older outsider) as sympathetic to the Palestinian victims of an excessive and criminal military assault and the unreasonable and cruel policies of the Netanyahu regime in Israel toward the territories seized by Israel after the 1967 War that was launched against it. The protesters believe, as I do, that the United State can and should do more to pressure Israel to change course, and should do less to support Israel militarily. I do not understand the demonstrations as pro-Hamas, pro-violence, or as excusing the horrific atrocities perpetrated on October 7 (even though there are surely individuals within those encampments and demonstrations who do excuse Hamas). Likewise, speaking as someone whose ancestry is 100% Eastern European Jewish, I do not confuse opposition to Israeli policy or even to Israel's existence, as inherently antisemitic (although such views could stem in some cases from antisemitism), any more than I would describe Israel's current illegal and indefensible policies and behavior as being (agreeing with Jeralyn on this point) a form of genocide.
       Finally, I would and do defend the free speech rights of those who disagree with me on any of these points, including calls for the elimination of Israel as a Zionist state. Speech that is hateful or makes other uncomfortable (or "feel unsafe") is still mostly protected by free speech principles, as long as it does not amount to harassment of individuals or incitement to imminent lawless action that is likely to produce such action.

    Parent
    One sided coverage (none / 0) (#7)
    by john horse on Sat May 04, 2024 at 07:53:15 PM EST
    I do not understand the demonstrations as pro-Hamas, pro-violence, or as excusing the horrific atrocities perpetrated on October 7

    However I can understand why some people would come to this conclusion if they watched the mainstream media.

    For example, you would think that if you wanted to understand the protests you might want to ask some of the students or professors involved.

    You also often see Israeli government officials or Israel supporters on MSNBC but rarely do you see those who support Palestine.  MSNBC commentators who have pushed back against some of the erroneous claims of Israeli officials, like Mehdi Hasan, have been  purged.

    I'm not saying that the views of Israeli government officials, or Israel supporters should not be represented, just that the coverage should be more balanced and critical.  

    Since coverage is so one sided, you can understand why some people see protestors as "pro-Hamas, pro-violence, or as excusing the horrific atrocities perpetrated on October 7."  There are people on both sides who believe in human rights and coexistence.  The tragedy is that these are the people that the MSM ignores.  

    Parent

    Well said, Jeralyn (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by The Addams Family on Sun May 05, 2024 at 11:48:29 PM EST
    . . . today's protests are rooted in hate and being run by professional groups of outside agitators who know all too well how to attract disaffected and naive college students, who care mostly about being socially accepted by their peers, and are not about to do any research on the underlying topic. They are fine picking up the phrase of the day they hear coming from a bullhorn.

    I was at the Duke Commencement ceremony (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by vml68 on Mon May 13, 2024 at 01:12:35 PM EST
    yesterday for my neice/goddaughter's graduation. Proud moment!

    While we were waiting for the ceremony to start, a student handed us a flyer informing us about the walkout planned for just before Jerry Seinfeld spoke and encouraging all of us guests to join them in their protest againt the atrocities being inflicted on the people of Gaza.

    I don't post on here about my views about the war because I am pretty sure Jeralyn will ban me. And yet, there was no way I was going to get up and walk out in solidarity with the protesters and miss part of the graduation.
    After the walkout, the procession of students marched behind where we were sitting in the bleachers chanting loudly, so for a few minutes, you could not hear anything being said on stage.
    There were quite a few p!ssed off families in the stands during that time. I felt bad that they had to experience that when all they wanted to do was celebrate and enjoy a special time in one of their loved ones life, but then I figured, what's a few moments of unpleasentness compared to what the people in Gaza are experiencing.

    As an aside, two of the Honorary degree recipients I was thrilled to see were, Rhiannon Giddens (have been listening to her for a few years) and Desmond Meade (President of the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition)!

    Bill Burr.. (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by jondee on Wed May 15, 2024 at 02:35:27 PM EST
    called His Smugness out for his lightweight B.S and has now joined the long list of former quests who, for the foreseeable future, won't be invited back on Bill Maher's Real Time - along with Jon Stewart, Cornel West, Krystal Ball, Greenwald, Michael Moore..

    Basically, anyone who doesn't equate the entire Palestinian people with 'the terrorists' is heretofore disinvited.

    N.Y.U. Forcing Protesters to Write Apology Letters (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by john horse on Sat May 18, 2024 at 07:41:13 AM EST
    According to the NYT, NYU is punishing student protestors for committing the thought crime of protesting what is going on in Gaza.

    While the university eventually moved to have the criminal charges against the students dropped, it initiated a disciplinary process against some of them (the university will not disclose how many) that seemed as if it had been conjured in the writers' room of a dystopian sci-fi series. In order to return to the university, some students would be required to complete a 49-page set of readings and tasks -- "modules" -- known as the Ethos Integrity Series, geared at helping participants "make gains" in "moral reasoning" and "ethical decision making." In a letter to the administration, Liam Murphy, a professor at the law school, called it "an intellectual embarrassment," betraying the university's mission as a training ground for independent thought and forcing students merely "to consume pages and pages of pablum."

    The Ethos Integrity Series was not the only command. Some students would be assigned a "reflection paper," the details of which were laid out by the Office of Student Conduct. In it they would address several questions, among them: What are your values? Did the decision you made align with your personal values? What have you done or need still to do to make things right? Explicitly instructed not to "justify" their actions, the students were told to turn their papers in by May 29 in "12-point Times New Roman or similar font."

    In a faculty listserv, this week, Robert Cohen, a professor of history and social studies at N.Y.U. whose scholarship focuses on 20th-century protest movements, said that he could think of no instance from the campus demonstrations in the '60s in which a university had so "coerced" students to declare that their dissent was "wrong."

    Am I the only person who thinks there is something Orwelian about this?

    Absolutely (none / 0) (#48)
    by FlJoe on Sat May 18, 2024 at 04:47:33 PM EST
    Orwellian, come on man these were just college students blowing off steam, in the spring time, for the cause(justifiable IMO) of the moment.. been there done that.

    Parent
    Not (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by FlJoe on Sun May 26, 2024 at 07:25:56 AM EST
    a big fan of Libertarians, but this is sweet
    Donald Trump's attempt to reach out to Libertarian voters could hardly have gone worse after he was chased from the stage 34 minutes into his speech, exiting to boos and jeering.


    What exactly would his handlers think (none / 0) (#56)
    by Peter G on Sun May 26, 2024 at 02:27:22 PM EST
    was the overlap between Tr*mp's authoritarianism and the libertarian agenda, other than lower taxes on the rich and less government regulation of business?

    Parent
    For example, here is my old friend and (none / 0) (#57)
    by Peter G on Sun May 26, 2024 at 02:38:52 PM EST
    college classmate, the politics and economics editor for the CBS-TV affiliate in Pittsburgh, cornering Tr*mp (in the nicest way) a few days ago about abortion and birth control.

    Parent
    June 3rd... (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by desertswine on Mon Jun 03, 2024 at 01:57:51 PM EST
    Oh well, just another sleepy, dusty, delta day.

    I stole your comment (none / 0) (#61)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 03, 2024 at 04:16:15 PM EST
    and learned something I did not know

    He proposed the theory that the underlying basis for the song was the murder of Emmett Till. "While she did not confirm that theory," he writes. "She did smile and say that I must be a very learned student of history."May 2, 2021



    Parent
    Did you (none / 0) (#62)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 03, 2024 at 04:30:21 PM EST
    Know?

    Parent
    I had not heard that, no. (none / 0) (#63)
    by desertswine on Mon Jun 03, 2024 at 10:25:30 PM EST
    I don't get the connection (none / 0) (#64)
    by Peter G on Tue Jun 04, 2024 at 11:16:51 AM EST
    I know a decent amount about the Emmett Till case and how it help spark the civil rights movement in the early '50s, but I don't see the connection or reference in the lyrics of that song.

    Parent
    Yeah, it's quite a stretch (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 04, 2024 at 11:53:51 AM EST
    plus, I hate to think how many other young black men died under questionable circumstances in the Deep South between 1955 and 1967.

    Parent
    Everything I know about the subject (none / 0) (#66)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 04, 2024 at 02:26:47 PM EST
    is in that comment.   Google is your friend.

    Parent
    Wiki (none / 0) (#67)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 04, 2024 at 02:33:28 PM EST

    Emmett Till connection?
    Latest comment: 3 years ago
    The third paragraph in the lede claims " When Gentry and Raucher got together to work on the screenplay, she explained that while the song was based on an actual event (the brutal murder of Emmett Till), she had no idea why the real person who inspired the character of Billie Joe had killed himself" (emphasis added). No source is provided for this claim. However, this contradicts the article on the song (upon which the film was based), which states the following: "When Herman Raucher met Gentry in preparation for writing a novel and screenplay based on the song, she confessed that she had no idea why Billie Joe killed himself. Gentry has, however, commented on the song, saying that its real theme was indifference: 'Those questions are of secondary importance in my mind. The story of Billie Joe has two more interesting underlying themes. First, the illustration of a group of people's reactions to the life and death of Billie Joe, and its subsequent effect on their lives, is made. Second, the obvious gap between the girl and her mother is shown when both women experience a common loss (first Billie Joe, and later, Papa), and yet Mama and the girl are unable to recognize their mutual loss or share their grief'." No mention of Emmett Till. Unless the claim about Till can be properly sourced, it should be removed. Bricology (talk) 18:16, 31 October 2017 (UTC)



    Parent
    More google (none / 0) (#68)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 04, 2024 at 05:33:19 PM EST

    Gentry's insistence on avoiding any sort of resolution to her song has led to one final bit of folklore: what happened to Gentry herself? As the Washington Post reported, "Ode to Billie Joe" sold "tens of millions of copies" and "made Gentry a hot Vegas star," but then she became "the J.D. Salinger of pop music. She made Harper Lee look chatty. She went full Garbo." One devoted fan in 2009 even wrote a song, "Where Is Bobbie Gentry?" hoping that it might bring the singer out of seclusion.

    The Washington Post reporter used real-estate
    records to locate Gentry living in "an 8,000-square-foot house with a great pool" presumably near Memphis, which is not too far from Chickasaw County.



    Parent
    I like the reference to an 8000 SQ ft house. (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 04, 2024 at 05:35:21 PM EST
    Like it's small.  I guess?

    I had a house in LA that was 800 SQ ft that I sold for almost 300,000.

    It didn't have a pool

    Parent

    Au contraire. My friend, The Google (none / 0) (#70)
    by Peter G on Tue Jun 04, 2024 at 07:19:08 PM EST
    says that an 8000 square foot house is at the low end of what can be considered a mansion.

    Parent
    The protests are going to put (none / 0) (#2)
    by Chuck0 on Fri May 03, 2024 at 01:34:44 PM EST
    Orange Jesus in the White House. These protests are going to kill Biden at the polls in November. These kids blame the current administration for aiding the mass killings in Gaza. They will stay home in November. We need their votes. Biden needs to take these protests seriously and change course in Israel.

    The case for voting for Biden (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by john horse on Mon May 06, 2024 at 07:28:47 AM EST
    Chuck,

    I too share your concern that these protests may tip the election to Trump.  Four years ago Biden won because of higher than expected turnout from the youth vote and because of the strong support he received from the Palestinian community in Michigan.  So who can blame student protestors and Palestinian Americans if they feel a sense of betrayal.  As the late great Molly Ivins once wrote "You've got to dance with them what brung you."  

    Despite this, I am supporting and will vote for Joe Biden.  The Democratic party is a big tent party.  It includes those who support Netanyahu but also those who sympathize with the Palestinians.  This includes Bernie Sanders, AOC, and Rashida Tlaib.  Polls have shown that there has been a significant shift among Democrats towards Palestinians.  On the other hand, Trump and the GOP are uniform in their support for Netanyahu and Netanyahu makes no secret of his support for Trump.

    On Palestine I trust Bernie Sanders, AOC, and Tlaib.  They have been tireless in their support of Palestinians.  I think they have achieved some success in pushing Biden away from his blind support of Israel.  If they support Biden, so will I.  Not voting for Biden only helps the candidate that Netanyahu supports.

    Parent

    Political (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 03, 2024 at 07:03:02 PM EST
    "What is happening in Gaza (none / 0) (#8)
    by jondee on Sat May 04, 2024 at 08:15:59 PM EST
    is genocide because the level and pace of indiscriminate killing, destruction, mass expulsion, displacement, famine, executions,the wiping out of cultural and religious institutions, the crushing of elites (including the killing of journalists), and the sweeping dehumanization of the Palestinians - create an overall picture of genocide, of a deliberate conscious crushing of Palestinian existence in Gaza."

    - Amos Goldberg, Professor of Holocaust History, Hebrew University, Jerusalem

    Defund the War (none / 0) (#9)
    by john horse on Sun May 05, 2024 at 09:43:19 AM EST
    Most Americans do not support what Netanyahu is doing in Gaza.  So why are we funding it?

    In the past, military funding to Israel was thought necessary to ensure Israel's existence.  However, that is not the situation anymore.  Militarily, Israel is much more powerful than any of its neighbors.   They are in no danger of being invaded. They alone have nuclear weapons.

    Netanyahu and his right wing government see America as paper tigers and they are right.  Our government threatens to cut funding if Israel doesn't stop killing Palestinian civilians in Gaza or stop building settlements on the West Bank but we never do.   If there are no consequences for bad behavior, then that behavior will not only continue but get worse.

    What Netanyahu and his rightwing extremist supporters have counted on is America's blind loyalty and support of Israel. Americans have viewed Israel as occupying the moral high ground.  This was in large part due to the Holocaust.  But no more.  You can't cede the moral high ground to a nation that is acting immorally.  If they want to continue their immoral extremist policies, that is their choice.   Just not on our dime.

     

    Current Protests Versus Those of 1968 (none / 0) (#10)
    by RickyJim on Sun May 05, 2024 at 11:22:10 AM EST
    I have seen comments online from 1968 protestors that they occupied buildings, interfering with students attending classes, while the current protestors just erect tents on campus, a comparatively minor annoyance. I assume like 1968, there will be disruptions at the political conventions.

    Just erecting tents? (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by coast on Sun May 05, 2024 at 12:41:16 PM EST
    There are plenty of vidoes showing these protesters doing all the things listed, so I'm not sure where "just erecting tents" comes from.  Maybe I'm reading the comment incorrectly.

    The key difference IMO is that the protestors of today have made other students, specifically Jewish students, feel unsafe.  I don't think that the protestors of the late 60's related to the war made a group of students feel unsafe.  Could be wrong though as that was slightly before my time.

    Parent

    Reports Differ (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by RickyJim on Sun May 05, 2024 at 01:04:16 PM EST
    There are plenty of comments from Jewish students, who are taking part in the protests, that they don't feel uncomfortable.  Does anybody reading this have first hand knowledge of how anti-Jewish the demonstrations are?  Is there more bigotry than is found in a typical MAGA rally?  

    Parent
    First hand knowledge? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by coast on Mon May 06, 2024 at 04:06:28 PM EST
    Why is this necessary when there are ample videos and pictures?  Its not as if there was very little coverage and people are only hearing about this through print media.  I think having protestors chanting "we are Hamas" and hanging signs calling for intifada is pretty clear intimidation and unacceptable.

    As for the Jewish students participating in the protests, why would they feel uncomfortable?  They are participating in the protests.  I can't wrap my head around this logic that because a group of Jewish students were a part of the protests, then no Jewish students, or any other students for that matter, should fear for their safety.  

    Parent

    Can't wrap my head around (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by jondee on Mon May 06, 2024 at 06:06:47 PM EST
    at all, for the life of me, people seemingly more concerned about the way some students 'feel' than about thousands of children being blown to bits.

    It's truly perverse. On every imaginable level.

    Parent

    That's not (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 06, 2024 at 06:48:44 PM EST
    what he said.

    Parent
    For what it's worth (1.00 / 1) (#34)
    by coast on Tue May 07, 2024 at 11:27:26 AM EST
    I do empathize with the suffering of the Palestinian people, but that's not what's being discussed under this particular part of the thread.

    Parent
    Doesn't have to be first hand (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Yman on Wed May 22, 2024 at 08:51:43 AM EST
    But trying to use unnamed/unspecified videos/photos to smear all the protesters is ridiculous.  Who are the "protesters" chanting "we are Hamas"?  How many are there and do they represent the actual protesters or are they merely a few, outside agitators.  I've seen one of the protests first hand and it was peaceful.  No one was chanting "We are Hamas" and no one was saying anything remotely antisemitic.  They were opposing the slaughter of Palestinian civilians.

    Parent
    The (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by FlJoe on Sun May 05, 2024 at 03:21:21 PM EST
    ROTC guys weren't happy campers.

    Parent
    Likewise, the handful of students on (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Peter G on Sun May 05, 2024 at 04:31:21 PM EST
    my campus who supported the U.S. position in Vietnam (we had no ROTC program) were generally ostracized and made to feel uncomfortable. Even though my fellow students at the small, Quaker-founded college I attended were no doubt among the kindest and most considerate of our generation. Honestly, I have no sympathy at all for this "feel unsafe" crap, which as far as I can tell means nothing other than "forced to confront the fact that some people disagree with me on things I care deeply about, and for that reason many of them seem not to like me." It has nothing to do with actual "safety" in the physical sense, as best I can tell.

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 06, 2024 at 07:30:45 AM EST
    but the most grievous injury they suffered was their inability to get laid.
     

    Parent
    There was a while (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 06, 2024 at 09:15:42 AM EST
    I was attending demonstrations and IN ROTC.

    the first semester it was required before we got that changed.

    I never saw a single instance of ROTC vs hippies,  not one. One even a verbal one.

    The comparison is irritating,

    Parent

    Here are a couple of images (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 06, 2024 at 09:32:24 AM EST
    From my 1971 college year book.  They are facing images in the book and are taken at a emergency meeting called by the college when we the students said we are not taking ROTC.  Which was a graduation requirement.
    In the pic of the crowd the person standing being described as " looking on in disbelief" is me.

    We won that particular thing.  ROTC became voluntary.  I'm surrounded by my friends who were also ROTC/hippy protesters.

    one

    two

    Parent

    I (none / 0) (#23)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 06, 2024 at 01:09:10 PM EST
    was in ROTC a  2 semesters couple of years before the protests really hit, I knew some hotheads who verbally assaulted some of them and eventually ransacked the offices on my campus.

    Ironically the most fervent ROTC guys I knew drew a 360 on the draft lottery and immediately quit his last year in school to void his commission then proceed to become a leader of the radicals...go figure.

    Parent

    You mean Hippie hotheads (none / 0) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 06, 2024 at 03:30:13 PM EST
    and ROTC offices?  This was not to target ROTC members. It was to protest the requirement of ROTC. Yeah, that happened.  I remember it being discussed in my presence but it was not necessary in the end because the requirement was dropped.

    ROTC did not want us any more than we wanted them.  All those guys around me in the meeting, and me, had been ordered to get haircuts.

    We said we don't want to be here and we are damn sure not getting a haircut.  Deal with it.  We also disrupted "drills".  I enjoyed that.

    Parent

    This is right around the time (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 06, 2024 at 03:39:19 PM EST
    the military was figuring out that conscription was the problem.  And if they could just get enough poor kids to join voluntarily it would solve all their problems.

    Parent
    The (none / 0) (#32)
    by FlJoe on Tue May 07, 2024 at 06:37:29 AM EST
    antiwar movement was not entirely made up of the "make love, not war" crowd. Remember the Weather Underground?

    I know ROTC cadets were subject to shouts of "baby killer" and other forms of intimidation on my campus.

    Frankly some of these "hotheads" made me "uncomfortable" with their violent rhetoric.

    Parent

    How many time did you hear an ROTC person (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 07, 2024 at 07:55:55 AM EST
    say they feared for their safety or ask for protection from hippies?

    Parent
    To give a balanced picture (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by jondee on Sun May 05, 2024 at 04:14:29 PM EST
    of what's going on, they should ask some of the Many Jewish students participating in the pro-Palestine demonstrations what's occurring that would make Jewish students feel unsafe.


    Parent
    AXIOS (none / 0) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun May 05, 2024 at 04:55:50 PM EST

    U.S. Put Hold on Ammunition Shipment to Israel
    May 5, 2024 at 2:29 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard 61 Comments

    "The Biden administration last week put a hold on a shipment of U.S.-made ammunition to Israel," Axios reports.

    "It is the first time since the Oct. 7 attack that the U.S. has stopped a weapons shipment intended for the Israeli military. The incident raised serious concerns inside the Israeli government and sent officials scrambling to understand why the shipment was held



    People Are Hoping That Israel Nukes Us (none / 0) (#22)
    by john horse on Mon May 06, 2024 at 11:07:44 AM EST
    To understand what Israel is doing in Gaza please read this article by Nicholas Kristof `People Are Hoping That Israel Nukes Us So We Get Rid of This Pain'

    Lost her 2-month old baby because there is no milk (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by john horse on Wed May 08, 2024 at 01:21:29 PM EST
    Here are some of the emails from Mohammed Alshannat, "a Palestinian in Gaza who at the start of the war was working remotely on his Ph.D. dissertation in linguistics for Rhodes University in South Africa. He is the opposite of Hamas, for in his writing he has criticized suicide bombings and rocket firings. He admires European democracy and argues that Arabs and Jews can live in harmony." (from Nicholas Kristoff's NYT article)

    Feb. 6: My sister Fatemah hasn't yet done her surgery and is still waiting in the hospital in the south. Her children are with us in the north and keep asking for their mother. Fatemah wants to go back to the north but Israel does not allow those in the south to go back to the north. She does not want to die alone in the hospital. She wants to die surrounded by her children and family. There is no one to help us to take her to the north to die and be buried here.

    I am still in the north with my family. We are in a great famine. My injured son's health is deteriorating because of the famine. There is no milk, meat, vegetables, fruit or anything to feed him. He lost most of his weight. Medicine and other stuff completely disappeared from the markets. My mother's diabetes medicine has run out and she is very, very sick. My children are crying from hunger all the time. People are hoping that Israel nukes us so we get rid of this pain.

    Feb. 11: Rice, on which we have been living off in the last four months, has completely disappeared from the markets. Me and my wife have decided to eat a meal every two days just to keep our kids alive as long as we can. What is left for us is hay. We have started grinding it, bake it and eat it. Because we have started eating the hay bread, we now defecate blood mixed with hay.

    I lost my house, my car and my olive farm. Yesterday my cousin lost her 2-month-old baby because there is no milk to breastfeed him, because there is nothing for her to eat. He was her only and she is 45 years old. She also lost her house and her husband in December. She is a brilliant brain surgeon. She is refusing food and has not spoken a word since.

    Feb. 29: When the Israeli army invades an area, we run to safer places. When they withdraw, some of the Israeli soldiers' leftovers like tuna cans, bread, etc. remain. My cousin, Esa, thought that they have withdrawn and quickly rushed in the hope that he finds leftovers to eat.

    After the Israeli army finally withdrew, we found him dead, rotten and half eaten by wild dogs. He seemed to be carrying some tuna cans. We couldn't bury him as his body was so decomposed. We covered him with sand and left him.

    His name is Esa Alshannat. He was 20 years old. He was a sophomore student in the department of computer science at Gaza university. He was a brilliant pianist who wanted to pursue a music degree in Italy. I still remember my last meeting with him. He had big dreams and was full of hope, peace and love. He was very hungry and very skinny. We were telling each other that despite what is being inflicted on us, we have nothing against the Israelis but love.

    That was the last message from Alshannat.

    Parent

    Last night there was heavy bombing in the area (none / 0) (#36)
    by john horse on Wed May 08, 2024 at 01:07:19 PM EST
    What has life been like for the Palestinians in Gaza  Here are some of the emails from Mohammed Alshannat, "a Palestinian in Gaza who at the start of the war was working remotely on his Ph.D. dissertation in linguistics for Rhodes University in South Africa. He is the opposite of Hamas, for in his writing he has criticized suicide bombings and rocket firings. He admires European democracy and argues that Arabs and Jews can live in harmony." (from Nicholas Kristoff's NYT article)

    Oct. 11: The situation in Gaza is very grave. Forgive me as I couldn't reply any sooner. I was running for my life. Pray for us please!

    Oct. 25: My children are very, very sick. They are sick, hungry, thirsty and scared. My kidney stone medicine has run out and I have been drinking salty water. Please pray for my children.

    Oct. 26: Last night, there was heavy bombing in our area. We run for our lives and I lost two of my children in the dark. Me and my wife stayed all night searching for them amidst hundreds of airstrikes. We miraculously survived an airstrike and found them fainted in the morning. Please pray for us.



    Parent
    She is dying slowly before our eyes (none / 0) (#37)
    by john horse on Wed May 08, 2024 at 01:10:21 PM EST
    Here are some of the emails from Mohammed Alshannat, "a Palestinian in Gaza who at the start of the war was working remotely on his Ph.D. dissertation in linguistics for Rhodes University in South Africa. He is the opposite of Hamas, for in his writing he has criticized suicide bombings and rocket firings. He admires European democracy and argues that Arabs and Jews can live in harmony." (from Nicholas Kristoff's NYT article)

    Nov. 4: Please forgive me for not being able to reply to your messages as we are constantly running from one place to another. Internet connection is not stable and one has to wait three days just to charge your mobile. My children can't move around much as we only eat half a meal a day and I can't carry them anymore. We defecate in the open and my children defecate on themselves and there is no water to clean them.

    Nov. 14: We are eating tree leaves.

    Nov. 30: We were completely cut off from the world in the last 15 days. My sister needs an urgent surgery. She is dying slowly before our eyes and we can do nothing about it. Her name is Fatemah and she is a mother of four. Pray for her and us.



    Parent
    The world has abandoned us (none / 0) (#38)
    by john horse on Wed May 08, 2024 at 01:13:20 PM EST
    Here are some of the emails from Mohammed Alshannat, "a Palestinian in Gaza who at the start of the war was working remotely on his Ph.D. dissertation in linguistics for Rhodes University in South Africa. He is the opposite of Hamas, for in his writing he has criticized suicide bombings and rocket firings. He admires European democracy and argues that Arabs and Jews can live in harmony." (from Nicholas Kristoff's NYT article)

    Dec. 1 [after a weeklong pause in fighting]: I have managed to get some flour, gas and olive oil. This will sustain us for the following two weeks. We have clean water now. We got sleep during the past seven days. Pray for us please! The war has restarted at 7 a.m. today.

    Dec. 4: Fatemah hasn't yet had her urgent surgery. The world has abandoned us. Pray for us please!

    Jan. 27: My son was seriously injured on Dec. 22. A large shrapnel entered his right flank. He is 13 years old and was injured while we were running for our lives. Hospitals are out of service and I had to carry him bleeding under heavy artillery shelling for two hours. I found a doctor who was sheltering in a school, and he took a risk and saved my son's life. He went through a complicated surgery later and still unable to walk. He is very sick and suffers from malnutrition. I am scared and bone tired. It took me 36 days just to get this internet connection to send a WhatsApp message. Please pray for us!!



    Parent
    Why can't these students (none / 0) (#24)
    by KeysDan on Mon May 06, 2024 at 03:04:11 PM EST
    protest in their dorm rooms?  These protests are unpopular and make us uncomfortable. They create chaos on college campuses that we heard about, but have never seen or plan to set foot upon. Or, ever let our children attend because they would get all those funny ideas in their heads. In fact, we should follow Governor DeSantis' and just make colleges into Christian outposts.

    Importantly, it just shows how bad Biden is and that we must elect the lawless Trump to insure law and order. --based on interviews with ten unvaccinated MAGAts in Thelma"s diner in downtown Ada, Ohio.

    The little wisdom that there is in these diner's sentiments is that the student protests are being manipulated and exploited by the Republicans and media to elect Trump.

    A handy---  "caravans are coming"  which will quickly fade away after the issue has done its work. And, of course, Trump would have to be restrained from nuking Palestine and deporting Muslims from this country, if elected.

    The priority for thinking Americans is to elect Biden and to defeat Trump.  The student protesters do not help.

    The student protestors  rightly call for an end to the warfare in Palestine by the Israeli government. However, the underpinnings to the conflict are seemingly intractable since the Balfour Declaration during the First World War. A cease fire for just 90 days appears an herculean task.

    The heinous attack on Israel on Oct 7 generated a response from the Israel government, as would be expected from any government sustaining such a monstrous affront. Bibi and his extremist right wing gove0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000rnment acted disproportionately with outcomes that have resulted in near destruction of Palestinian society and have made Israel less secure.

    But over-reaction and disproportionate actions  are not unique, even when circumstances may differ.  After 9/11, the Bush Administration reacted by invading Iraq and Afghanistan, at great  human and material cost. And these countries were 7,000 miles away, rather than being separated by a fence.

    The student protests are, in largest part, peaceful. The claims of some students feeling unsafe need to be addressed by University Administrators. Also, some of the protest issues have, such as at the University of Chicago, become a potpourri--Freedom for Palestine to grievances about campus police. It is disappointing that more protests do not call attention to the hostages held by Hamas.

    After over 50 years of difficult student protests, you would think that University presidents would have a better handle on such matters. Maybe, the wiser presidents of Brown and Northwestern Universities could start a continuing education program for University administrators--Management of Students 101.

    Regret (none / 0) (#25)
    by KeysDan on Mon May 06, 2024 at 03:19:08 PM EST
    all those ooooooo's.  Don't know how that happened. It is not as if that typo was hard to spot.

    Parent
    Helluva bumper sticker (none / 0) (#28)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 06, 2024 at 03:45:39 PM EST

    Trump Says the GOP Is the `Party of Fertilization'
    May 6, 2024 at 11:19 am EDT By Taegan Goddard 292 Comments

    Donald Trump called the Republican party the "party of fertlization because we are for the women" when talking about abortion rights in an interview with Fox Detroit.



    Republican Senators vs the ICC (none / 0) (#35)
    by RickyJim on Tue May 07, 2024 at 07:45:38 PM EST
    The spirit of Trump is alive and well in the US Senate,
    A group of Republican senators have threatened the International Criminal Court's chief prosecutor, Karim Khan, and his family against issuing arrest warrants for any Israeli officials, including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

    In a letter to ICC chief prosecutor Karim Khan on April 24, 12 Republican senators, including Mitch McConnell, Ted Cruz, Tom Cotton, Marco Rubio, and Tim Scott, warned that if an arrest warrant was issued for any Israeli leaders, "We will interpret this not only as a threat to Israel's sovereignty but to the sovereignty of the United States," according to a report from Zeteo.

    "Target Israel and we will target you," the letter from April 24 added, noting that the senators would sanction the court's employees and associates, "and bar you and your families from the United States."

    "You have been warned," the letter concluded.

    Other signatories include Katie Britt, Rick Scott, and Pete Ricketts.


    The GOP senators cited the American Service-Members' Protection Act, a bill that has been referred to by some as the "Hague Invasion Act" because it could be used to justify a military operation against the ICC in The Hague if it prosecutes American officials or soldiers. In recent years, and especially after the court in 2023 issued an arrest warrant against Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and other Russian officials for war crimes issued in the invasion of Ukraine, the Biden administration pledged to help the ICC in its efforts.  

    Link

    Who's paying the protestors? (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdm251 on Mon May 13, 2024 at 11:36:07 AM EST
    I don't think anyone is funding the protests but if you believe they are being funded and organized by outside groups.  Who do you think is doing it? And why?

    AIPAC (none / 0) (#41)
    by jondee on Mon May 13, 2024 at 11:52:24 AM EST
    To make Biden look bad? (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdm251 on Mon May 13, 2024 at 01:57:46 PM EST
    I think from your reply you're saying AIPAC is funding the student protests?  I guess that would force Biden to either alienate young people or piss off his donors

    Parent
    It was a joke (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by jondee on Mon May 13, 2024 at 06:46:45 PM EST
    Netanyahu's March of Folly (none / 0) (#45)
    by john horse on Tue May 14, 2024 at 08:37:44 PM EST
    The imposition of collective punishment is a war crime.

    The Israeli government has killed over 34,000 Palestinians in Gaza, the vast majority of whom were civilians, including many women and children.  They have destroyed hospitals, mosques, schools and homes.  They have killed hundreds of aid workers and journalists.  They have hindered the delivery of food, water, and humanitarian aid.

    It is becoming increasingly clear that the target of Netanyahu's wrath isn't Hamas but the Palestinian people. And there is no indication that he is going to stop.

    Netanyahu doesn't have a plan for Gaza. He has no plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement or any clear attainable objectives.  There is no indication that the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed.

    At the end of the day, all he will have accomplished is to cause so much needless suffering.

    john horse (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jun 05, 2024 at 09:32:32 PM EST
    I've tried to be tolerant of your overtly hostile comments towards Israel. I just deleted one in which you accuse them of ethnic cleansing. I think you used the word genocide in another.

    You will have to take your comments on this topic elsewhere. I find them offensive. Keep in mind what I wrote in the post you are responding to:

    TalkLeft is a not a junkyard for you to dump your most hateful thoughts. Understand that any comment I view as anti-semitic will be deleted. And that in my view, a comment doesn't lose its anti-semitic character by substituting the word "Zionist" for "Israeli" or "Jewish person".

    Hate, insults, personal attacks, name-calling, and calls for violence against any individual or group, will be deleted -- this includes referring to the Israeli-Hamas war as a genocide or a holocaust, which I personally find offensive.



    Parent
    34,000? (none / 0) (#49)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun May 19, 2024 at 07:45:06 PM EST

    Maybe, and maybe not.

    To paraphrase Stalin (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by jondee on Mon May 20, 2024 at 01:47:03 PM EST
    one murdered, maimed, permanently disabled, or orphaned child is a tragedy. 10,000 is a statistic.

    Parent
    President Biden's (none / 0) (#54)
    by KeysDan on Fri May 24, 2024 at 12:27:23 PM EST
    Commencement Speech at Morehouse College, Atlanta. May 2024.  Among the best commencement speeches. Vert much worth the read.  Some, but peaceful, protests.

    Interesting (none / 0) (#58)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jun 01, 2024 at 04:21:39 PM EST
    The only thing (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by jmacWA on Mon Jun 03, 2024 at 05:18:32 AM EST
    more evil than marketing, is the confluence of marketing and the internet.  IMO.

    Parent
    ChuckO (none / 0) (#72)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 06, 2024 at 05:22:28 PM EST
    Your favorite politician just got a promotion.

    link

    Turner blindsided by Johnson's Intel appointments

    Speaker Mike Johnson didn't tell House Intelligence Committee Chair Mike Turner (R-Ohio) that he was appointing two controversial House Republicans to the secretive panel, just one of the dynamics that is causing angst across the Capitol.

    Turner learned that Johnson was tapping Reps. Ronny Jackson (R-Texas) and Scott Perry (R-Pa.) from press reports, according to multiple sources familiar with the events.



    unbelievable. In fact, it's (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Peter G on Thu Jun 06, 2024 at 07:04:37 PM EST
    unbelievable that Perry is not (yet) named as a defendant in any of the fake elector cases.

    Parent
    In your face (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 06, 2024 at 07:06:41 PM EST
    corruption.

    It's an interesting election strategy.

    Parent