DA Mike Nifong confirmed he had not turned over a toxicology report to the defense -- but he refused to say whether toxicology tests had been performed. Other items not turned over.

Did he sound angry or annoyed to you Sharon?

For the love of Mike (NOT Nifong,) reading that ridiculous line, "Sweetheart, you aren't going anywhere..." over and over again is making me feel like kicking somebody in the butt, too.

So why did Nifong put out the date rape drug theory?

Stevens interrupted Nifong to stop him.

Point to the defense, followed up by more than one point for the bond reduction.

Your thoughts on that?

OSBORN: And then, your honor, I understand that it is custom at least in this county that we would be permitted to actually go over to the law enforcement officer's agency and actually go through their files, all their files, all their notes and so forth, personally.

STEPHENS: Well I'm not aware of that custom. I believe perhaps maybe that's your take on the custom. I'm not aware of that custom. I mean you surely have the discovery process and you have what you're allowed by statute and then, frankly, whatever else the D.A. allows is his call.

OSBORN: Yes, sir.

Now, of course, he could mean "I have tox screenings in the works that I am delaying, in violation of discovery laws and rules and intentions."

Do you think he meant that, imho?

Stephens clearly favored Nifong in both hearings. He ridiculed Osborn about the "complicated" military records. I actually felt bad for Osborn about that. Stephens runs a tight ship, but he wasn't the least bit sharp with Nifong's about the snarky rape kit comment. It was a "now, now, we don't need to get into any of that". You can bet Osborn is glad he won't be before Stephens next time.

A cousin of the accuser in the Duke University rape case says she believes the young woman was drugged at the party in Durham, N.C., where she said she was attacked.

The cousin, who wanted to be identified only as Jackie, suggested in an interview with "Inside Edition" that drugging might account for any inconsistencies in what the alleged victim has said happened.

"I can't specifically say what my cousin says," Jackie said. "But what I believe is that she was drugged, and if you've been drugged and had alcohol mixed with some kind of cocktail of course you're going to be delusional."

The alleged victim, a student at a historically black college in Durham, says three members of the Duke lacrosse team raped her in a bathroom during a party where she was working as an exotic dancer.

Perhaps when the AV talked about the two 22-ouncers and the flexeril, someone decided NOT to run the test because of what it WOULD find.

He [Bissey] heard the b!tch word. He may have heard more.

imho: are we to infer that the same level of credibility should be given to the "Duke alum payoff" report as to this latest, the "date rape drug"?

Read that latest link: does the cousin ever say that the AV said she thought/believed/suspected she was "slipped" a date rape drug?

No.

So you have a family member trying to . . . what?

Nifong is approaching this case like a civil litigator, just win baby, on whatever set of facts works.

By the way, thanking someone's grandfather for his cotton shirt is perhaps the lamest racial epithet I have ever heard.

If he had heard players yelling the n-word, why would he have omitted that from his account? If he did not hear it, that gives the lie to Kim Pitman's testimony that they were shouting "N*,n*,n*" outdoors while she and the AV were in the car.

"There were no kind words of the things I heard that were directed at the girls," said neighbor Jason Bissey.

I've never heard that one. It sounds to me like someone wanted to hurl a racial epithet but didn't know how.

Some jurors in Durham may be like Durga, PB and imho and vote to convict based on the calling of names alone and the broomstick comment.

Stephens runs a tight ship, but he wasn't the least bit sharp with Nifong's about the snarky rape kit comment. It was a "now, now, we don't need to get into any of that".

Bissey supposedly saw the short skirt when he was watching the AV appear sober. If no one has an answer I'll just presume that Bissey just can't tell the difference between a skirt and lingerie.

If, as Kim has stated, the players thought Kim was the Hispanic one, they would have hollered something else.

Maybe the real answer is that some people are so afraid to say the N word that this is what they came up with for a substitution. To me it almost shows a PC mindset on racially insulting someone. Do you think that is crazy?

They couldn't tell a mixed Asian woman from a Latina ... they may just be that thick.

There's no real evidence of that. Kim Pitman didn't say that any of them said anything that indicated he thought she was hispanic. It was merely a conjecture on her part.

that just about every and any judge will err on the side of the prosecution. As they should.

Test question for everyone here: do you understand why a judge will, by and large, rule in favor of the prosecution? Here's a hint: the prosecution cannot appeal a not guilty verdict.

Not everyone is as obsessed with race as you are

Call the boys what you want, but one thing they are not is thick. I suspect that they would run circles around you in any sort of objective intelligence measurement.

Since you brought it up, I'm a skeptic and actually doubt there is an "objective intelligence measurement" considering it is biased to its time and the person who decides what qualifies as intelligence.

old blood is, well...............old. no toxicology report worth a damn will be performed on it, too many chemical changes can occur, to make it valid.

if they did, as much media coverage as this thing has gotten, someone (in deference to IMHO) would have leaked it by now.

I've read studies on the storage of blood that was tested for GHB.

DURHAM, N.C., June 22 -- A lawyer for one of the three Duke University lacrosse players charged with raping a woman said a police report released to the defense on Thursday showed that the woman initially claimed five men had sexually assaulted her. That assertion was immediately challenged by an investigator for the prosecutor.

The lawyer, Joseph B. Cheshire, spoke to reporters after Michael B. Nifong, the Durham County district attorney, delivered 536 pages of documents to defense lawyers. Mr. Cheshire said a quick review indicated that the woman had given other versions of events. Mr. Cheshire described the woman as "the false accuser" and said she had claimed rape by 3, 5 and 20 men.

Mr. Cheshire's news conference was briefly interrupted by Linwood Wilson, an investigator for the district attorney, who challenged him to show where in the documents the woman had changed her story. In an interview later, Mr. Wilson said he had seen all the evidence and that the woman, a 27-year-old student and stripper, had not changed her story.

The case stems from a lacrosse team party on March 13, where the woman and another stripper were hired to perform. In a 50-minute court proceeding on Thursday, Mr. Nifong addressed defense lawyers' requests for more information, saying the requests had been mostly fulfilled in the material delivered, added to 1,278 pages released May 18.

Judge Ronald L. Stephens of Durham County Superior Court reduced the bail for one of the three defendants to $100,000 from $400,000.

They couldn't tell a mixed Asian woman from a Latina (at the very least they could have thought she was Filipino); they may just be that thick.

DURHAM -- Heavy media coverage of an alleged rape by three Duke lacrosse players has not eroded Durham's image and actually may have provided a positive bump, according to a Durham Convention & Visitors Bureau survey conducted two months into the case.

The new study said Durham's self-image remained unchanged during the lacrosse coverage for 76.4 percent of residents ...

Of course you are. Objectivity in measuring intelligent

wouldn't fit with your view of a proper world order.

Statements like this do not help your cause,

they merely demonstrate your capacity to interpret facts selectively to suit your argument. Where is your evidence that people who cannot reliably distinguish racial characteristics have below average intelligence?

imho, PB, Durga, and Lora, please tell me: other than the AV's identification of the three accused, other than her depiction of what transpired that night in that house (I will even let you pick which one of her stories you want to use), what evidence do you think is there?

2. I was at the lacrosse party at 61 0 N. Buchanan Blvd. in Durham, NC on March 13 running over to March 14, 2006. After the two women danced for a few minutes in the main livingroom, they then left the main living room. 3. Shortly thereafter, I then left the residence through the back door and talked to Reade. As, I went out the back door, I did not see or hear anything unusual. Once outside, I saw Reade, who appeared normal in all respects. We were both tired fiom playing golf that afternoon, and we had practice the next day. In addition the dancers had stopped dancing and were obviously impaired when they left the main living room. Reade said he had just called a cab and asked if I wanted to leave with him.

Does it not bother you that you retreat to condemning the alleged racist comments, even when the only independent witness can only confirm a tasteless, childish (but, and I am willing to admit, it was a Cameron Crazy kind of racial comment) taunt aimed at, perhaps, the stripper who just told them that she had called the cops on them?

Do you care about what the accused's families are going through, if their boys are indeed innocent, not simply not guilty?

Before Kim Roberts found herself being used by disingenuous defense attorneys to further their agenda and resisted that she would have been considered an independent witness

She is characterized now as a company shill ONLY because of that resistance. It's a Machiavellian game

What is my "cause"?

I said - They couldn't tell a mixed Asian woman from a Latina (at the very least they could have thought she was Filipino); they may just be that thick.

I didn't say people who cannot reliably distinguish racial characteristics have below average intelligence.

More importantly, as Bob has repeated many times, none of these statistics has any bearing on whether this case involves a false accusation.

Yes, I do think that Stevens is a "pro-prosecution" judge, and most of his decisions will relect this. Not to mention (an odd idiomatic experssion because I am about to mention) that just about every and any judge will err on the side of the prosecution. As they should.

Test question for everyone here: do you understand why a judge will, by and large, rule in favor of the prosecution?

Why do you consider me an "AV supporter?"

Don't think so, PB. She's characterized as a company shill because she got a deal from the prosecution and changed her story.

Newport, I don't know if you're right on the inability to get a unanimous jury vote. It's all so easy to hide behind the cloak of anonymity on a blog. Things are different in person.

I don't know if you're right on the inability to get a unanimous jury vote. It's all so easy to hide behind the cloak of anonymity on a blog. Things are different in person.

Because the pertinent gaps in Wellington's testimony are where they are, Seligman has not successfully exonerated himself, even if we accept Welligton's statements unchallenged.

On the other hand, any observations are subject to all sorts of human imperfections. Seeing a short skirt when the woman wasn't wearing a skirt is a pretty big error in observation, especially when he was watching her walk a long time.

When Cheshire told reporters that the woman claimed five people attacked her, investigator Linwood Wilson asked Cheshire to show him that page in the evidence. "You're welcome to come get it," Cheshire said. "Yeah, I'd love to see it," Wilson said. Wilson walked away, and Cheshire continued talking with reporters.

I consider you a AV supporter for the same reason I consider Bob in Pacifica an AV detractor, you both consistently slant your posts albeit in opposite directions. You are smarter than Bob in Pacifica, it is too bad you can't find a better use for your brains.

In that vein, I'd respectfuly like to ask inmyhumbleopinion, Durga, PB, and Lora--if you ladies/gentlemen lived in Durham, would you be disappointed in Nifong, City Manager Baker, and especially in the line-up procedure? Would you be disappointed that the police/Nifong diverted resources from a quadruple homicide to pursue DNA evidence in this case? (I know, Lora, rapes are horrible crimes, but I don't think the families of the four murdered young (black) men would think a rape should take precedent over their sons/brothers case.)

What about Reade's phone records PB? Do those count for anything? Or, was he committing the oral rape while talking to his girlfriend on the phone. She might be somewhat displeased to learn this. I guess it's possible like everything else in this case.

And according to Seligman's cellphone log, he was occupied in phone conversations with his girlfriend almost continually between 12:05 and 12:14, when he called the cab.

Likewise, if she had gone to a psychiatrist for extended treatment regarding this gang rape, that physician would also be obligated to report it.

I have not heard the claim that Seligmann had even one conversation with his girlfriend between 12:05 and 12:14. Do either of you have a source for that? I guess it's possible you just made it up.

Imho, there's this link describing RS' cell phone records. There's no indication that the calls were conversations per se. Perhaps they were text messages or simply dialed calls with no answer.

fillintheblanks:

The complete cell phone records for 3/13 & 3/14 are attached to Osborn's motion for recusal of the DA.

I think you'll find what you're looking for on page 15 of the pdf.

12:05:49 a.m Seligmann's cell phone connects to his girlfriend's number. Call lasts 32 seconds. 12:06:24 a.m., Seligmann's cell phone connects to his girlfriend's number. Call lasts 33 seconds. 12:07:03 a.m., Seligmann's cell phone connects to his girlfriend's number. Call lasts 36 seconds. 12:09:00 a.m., Seligmann cell phone connects to another number twice. Calls last 23 seconds and 13 seconds. 12:10:14 a.m., Seligmann's cell phone connects to his girlfriend's number. Call lasts 26 seconds. 12:12:16 a.m., Seligmann's cell phone connects to his girlfriend's number. Call lasts 20 seconds. 12:13:33 a.m., Seligmann's cell phone connects to his girlfriend's number. Call lasts 33 seconds.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on this, especially because you seem to be the most inclined to believe the AV.

A black juror may not relish the prospect of going back to their community and telling them they voted 'against' their icon.

I have not heard the claim that Seligmann had even one conversation with his girlfriend between 12:05 and 12:14. Do either of you have a source for that? I guess it's possible you just made it up.

I consider Bob in Pacifica an AV detractor because ... he continually lied about the accuser and her family.

imho, your post refers to a study of Durham's self-image:

Just curious. Because I have to tell you it's enough to make me cry to think that you HAVE to have money in this community to pay for good attorneys to protect you from politically-motivated DAs and the judges who coddle them. Seriously, for most of you people, this is just great television. I envy your luxury. Living here is no fun.

Sigh. I need another vacation now.

I am aware of the six calls made from Seligmann's phone to his girlfriend's phone. I am not aware that he was, as Newport claims, "talking to his girlfriend on the phone," or he was, as wumhenry claims, "occupied in phone conversations with his girlfriend almost continually between 12:05 and 12:14."

12:05:49 a.m Seligmann's cell phone connects to his girlfriend's number. Call lasts 32 seconds. 12:06:24 a.m., Seligmann's cell phone connects to his girlfriend's number. Call lasts 33 seconds. 12:07:03 a.m., Seligmann's cell phone connects to his girlfriend's number. Call lasts 36 seconds. 12:09:00 a.m., Seligmann cell phone connects to another number twice. Calls last 23 seconds and 13 seconds. 12:10:14 a.m., Seligmann's cell phone connects to his girlfriend's number. Call lasts 26 seconds. 12:12:16 a.m., Seligmann's cell phone connects to his girlfriend's number. Call lasts 20 seconds. 12:13:33 a.m., Seligmann's cell phone connects to his girlfriend's number. Call lasts 33 seconds.

[snip] Is this just more of imho's "quibbling?"

NOW, IF she was lying, why on earth would she make up so many crazy stories? If her goal was to get out of spending the night at the other hospital, she would have picked one story and stuck to it.

IMHO wrote:

I have not heard the claim that Seligmann had even one conversation with his girlfriend between 12:05 and 12:14. Do either of you have a source for that? I guess it's possible you just made it up.

Well, have you looked at the phone log that mik linked, IMHO? Would you care to retract the insinuation that Newport and I lied.

I've never heard that one. It sounds to me like someone wanted to hurl a racial epithet but didn't know how.

And what becomes of you my love, When they have finally stripped you of, The handbags and the gladrags, That your Grandad had to sweat so you could buy

IMHO wrote:

I consider Bob in Pacifica an AV detractor because ... he continually lied about the accuser and her family.

How?

IMHO - You are correct. The phone records only show connection times, not who was actually using the phone or how. I would note, however, that we can reasonably rule out text messaging as a possibility simply based on the connection times. No text message takes 30+ seconds to send.

NOW, IF she was lying, why on earth would she make up so many crazy stories? If her goal was to get out of spending the night at the other hospital, she would have picked one story and stuck to it.

"Eskimo" being his favorite (he is not).

And yes, Bissey's 1:00 time for the women going back outside is wrong, if the other evidence is right. TL I believe posted a couple dozen threads back that 12:42 was the time the women left the party. And Kim called in the first 911 report at, what was it, 12:53? So....yeah. Wrong.

BTW, the FA's cousin "Jakki" is really "Jack," and is actually a man, just thought I'd clear that up for y'all

Since it is the prosecution's obligation to investigate the case and to prove guilt as a juror I would expect them to present the evidence required to do the above sort of calculation sensibly. So in the above scenarios I would expect testimony from dates, husband or clients about whether they had [Vsex] with the AV in the prior week. I would also expect medical testimony about other possible causes of VS such as infection. If the prosecution did not offer such evidence I would discount the finding of VS.

For the record: I, for one, don't think that IMHO is smarter than BobInPacifica, who is one sharp cookie.

And I further agree that IMHO is not smarter than Bob, that was a truly off the wall comment by that poster.

I was referring to the 1993 Creedmore rape...

What are a psychiatrist's legal responsibilities? If one is in possession of exculpatory evidence such as AV denying a rape, must they inform the police? Or, from a different perspective, if one learns that a crime has been committed (the crime of false accusation), must they report this?

You are at a psych unit, about to undergo an exam to determine if you will be involuntarily committed.

Why, at that point, would you diss the cop who is interviewing you about the rape...

Friday morning, Cheshire, who represents charged player David Evans, provided proof. He sent Wilson a report written by Durham Police officer, G.D. Sutton, stating that the alleged victim first mentioned "20 guys at a bachelor party" and then says that she was "assaulted by five guys." The report also states that "Nikki" who we now know is Kim Roberts, tried to convince the alleged victim to have sex. The report also states that there were four dancers at the party, not two.

You are at a psych unit, about to undergo an exam to determine if you will be involuntarily committed. You decide you will accuse some of those mean racist party boys of rape to get out of it. You invent a story. It gets you out of the involuntary committment proceedings and over to Duke Hospital. Why, at that point, would you diss the cop who is interviewing you about the rape, recant to him, then reaffirm the rape to Duke medical personnel, tell all sorts of bizarre variations on a story that no one in their right mind would believe...IF you wanted to make a false accusation of rape that anyone would take seriously? Hello?

I understand that the true rape victim changes her/his story. The problem is this, yes they can change thier stories due to emotional trauma, but I must admit I have never heard of any rape victim mis-remembering the number of people who raped them to the degree this alleged victim has. The quality of the "story changes" in rape victims is not of the magnitude of this particular case normally. Rape victims do not within a matter of a few hours report extreme physical abuse to no physical abuse for instance. Let me give you an example, of course this is a hypothetical patient. Me " Do you know if they wore condoms?" Patient, " Yes, I heard the snap when he put it on." THAT is a typical comment during a Sane exam. I use this because someone who has been through that horrific trauma remembers wierd little details and its those wierd little details that often can solve the case. As a point, MOST rape victims have a crystal clear memory of very small details, like the color of the rapists socks. Strange odd memory that come only under severe trauma. I do indeed understand your desire for fairness for all involved (I go out on a limb here and assume this). But I do ask you to step back and review the data that has so far been released. I ask that because for some reason you seem to think that everyone else is lying except the victim. Might I inquire this, Do you think the SANE examiner and other healthcare professionals are lying as well?

Gunshy, why was that police report not produced earlier. Why the delay? Was Fong holding it back? Or, was it from an officer who didn't document his activities as he should have on the night in question and was forced to go back to recreate them after the issue was raised in discovery motions?

You often post on the assumption that those of us who find this prosecution wrong are uninformed and uncommitted on these issues.

I cannot speak for others, but my working life had me sitting in a court room 5 days a week listening to, and viewing images and other physical records of, and collating evidence about child abuse including child sexual assault. There is very little you can tell me about the suffering of victims, the reasons why, or the way in which all sexual assault shocks the conscience.

A SANE nurse has posted on this subject at CourtTV:

I understand that the true rape victim changes her/his story. The problem is this, yes they can change thier stories due to emotional trauma, but I must admit I have never heard of any rape victim mis-remembering the number of people who raped them to the degree this alleged victim has.

I wish I knew. That one one line in that letter was so funny " I can only assume you motivation in questioning my assertion was simply ignorance. A simple reading of your file might solve that problem in the future."

We don't know that the AV did. We do not have her exact words to go by. We haven't even seen the reports where she is described as having done so. I DO know, as do other posters here who honestly read the motions and news reports, that her alleged words have on occasion been misrepresented. We don't have enough information to conclude that she kept changing her story, despite what the defense keeps telling us.

We don't know that the AV did. We do not have her exact words to go by. We haven't even seen the reports where she is described as having done so.

My latest [posts were] in response to those posters who seemed to imply that when a person refuses or walks out of a SANE exam, it means that his/her accusation of rape is false.

Newport: I like the "Fong" choice. Of course, that is a small step away from "Dong" which has all sorts of possibilities, too

The cousin of the alleged victim in the Duke University lacrosse rape case says "alums of Duke" quietly offered the accuser lots of money - a staggering $2 million - early on to drop the charges, and go on with her life. "She told me they wanted her to make the case go away," Jakki (she will not reveal her last name in order to protect her family), the designated family spokesperson, told The Carolinian and Wilmington Journal newspapers in an exclusive interview June 19.

Original responding officer Shelton, for example, did not write his 3/14 incident report down until several weeks after the 3/14 incident.

Failing to see the contradiction in your own statements also does not help your cause.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on this, especially because you seem to be the most inclined to believe the AV.

NOW, IF she was lying, why on earth would she make up so many crazy stories? If her goal was to get out of spending the night at the other hospital, she would have picked one story and stuck to it.

So we're back to a story proves rape to the extent it's inconsistent and and the same story also proves rape to the extent it's consistent? One wonders how consistent the stories offered by the AV were in relation to the previous rape allegation and the previous murder allegation.

And we can stipulate that Durga_ doesn't think so, either, since she told us that everyone is just as smart as anyone else. ;)

Rape victims do not within a matter of a few hours report extreme physical abuse to no physical abuse for instance.

Toni was asleep at home when she was awakened by someone's presence next to her bed. A masked man was standing there holding a knife. He threatened her with the knife and forced her to have vaginal sex with him. He also forced her to perform fellatio. After he left, she immediately called the police. In her statement, she denied engaging in oral sex because she felt shame and guilt. Patricia was a drug addict. She would do almost anything to support her habit. She made arrangements to buy some crack from her dealer. She met him at the appointed time and place. In the course of the transaction there was a disagreement over the terms of the sale. The dealer physically assaulted Patricia, dragged her behind a vacant house, and forced her to have sex. Patricia reported the incident to the police, completely omitting the details of the drug deal. Kathryn lived alone and was sexually assaulted by her neighbor. He forced her to have vaginal and oral sex with him. Kathryn had always feared this man. He threatened to kill her if she reported the assault. She also was afraid of venereal disease. To secure free medical services, she reported the incident to police. She described her assailant as a masked stranger and denied the oral act.

Well I still think she'd want the police on her side with the rape story. If you're lying that a rape happened, and if you want to be believed, you're not going to recant. You're going to tell the same story.

We don't have enough ichanging her story, despite what the defense keeps telling us.

Get off it Durga. (...)

None of the cases you describe is one where the complainant reports a physical assault and then denies a physical assault.

In any case, you are free to follow the link I posted and take the issue up with the SANE nurse who wrote it.

I would say I was inclined to not disbelieve a claim until I heard all of it.

I would hold off expressing disappointment in Nifong and City Manager Baker.

I would hold off judgment on the line up procedures until I heard about the preceeding line ups and what they may tell us about the purpose of the powerpoint presentation "line up."

I don't know much about the quadruple homicide. Do they have samples from the crime scene to compare to samples from people who were thought to have been at the crime scene? Do they have a witness stating they saw three of these people committ the crime? If so, are some of these people likely to leave the state for the summer, if not forever? What do you think the players would have to say about making them wait in line for the results of the DNA tests? Some people seemed to bristle at the idea of case priorities when Judge Stephens said he would not let the Duke lacrosse rape cases jump ahead of others on the court docket that also had "priority."

"After his arrest, Seligmann told more than one teammate, 'I'm glad they picked me.' He has produced ATM records, photographs, an affidavit from a taxi driver and the record of a key-card swipe at his dorm that according to his lawyer provide an alibi for the time the rape allegedly occurred."

Defense motions have pointed out that the woman has given different accounts of how many men she said raped her after an escort service sent her to dance at a March 13 team party.

"We've got none, we've got three, we've got five, we've got 20. I mean, pick a number -- any number you want to pick," Cheshire told reporters outside the courtroom. "She's told so many different stories I'm not sure how many there are."

Defense lawyers have declined News & Observer requests for copies of the evidence, and Cheshire did not make them available Thursday. An investigator in Nifong's office called into question Cheshire's claims Thursday.

When Cheshire told reporters that the woman claimed five people attacked her, investigator Linwood Wilson asked Cheshire to show him that page in the evidence.

"You're welcome to come get it," Cheshire said.

"Yeah, I'd love to see it," Wilson said.

Wilson walked away, and Cheshire continued talking with reporters.

What did Wilson say? 1.) Did he say, "The report doesn't say she claimed she was raped by five guys?" 2.)Did he say, "The report doesn't say she claimed she was raped by twenty guys?" 3.) Did he say, "That's not true?""She did not say that." [snip] The report does not say she claimed twenty guys raped her. The above quote by Cheshire, if he is stating how many men that report says the accuser claims to have raped her, is incorrect. If Wilson said, that's a lie, he is right. We need more information about this exchange to know who is right here.

When Cheshire told reporters that the woman claimed five people attacked her, investigator Linwood Wilson asked Cheshire to show him that page in the evidence.

noname, I don't know how they do it in NC, but in PA a cop can't involuntarily commit anybody. You have to have a psych evaluation and a psychiatrist has to sign off.

The above quote by Cheshire, if he is stating how many men that report says the accuser claims to have raped her, is incorrect. If Wilson said, that's a lie, he is right.

I don't think that the AV had a premeditated plan to 'get' the lax players. I think she was just trying to save herself from her committal and all that would go with it. Once she started in with the rape story I think she found herself on the slippery slope. She didn't want anything to do with the cops which is probably why she recanted. Unfortunately for her she was probably put to the test by the cop who probably gave her no easy way out. "either you were raped and your staying here or we are going back to the pysch unit". All the conflicting stories are just that, 'stories'. It's hard to make up a convincing clear story when you're head is on straight, its virtually impossible when your near passed out incoherent at 3:00am.

The latest paperwork comes on top of 1,298 pages of documentation surrendered by Nifong last month, bringing the total to more than 1,800. Cheshire said Thursday that the previous batch of paperwork contained only about 70 pages that were meaningful to the case. He said he expected about the same ratio from the new batch.

Attorneys for all three players were in court Thursday as the prosecution turned over 536 additional pages of discovery documents in the investigation.

After the exchange, Wilson told Eyewitness News that he personally read all 1814 pages of discovery documents and has not read that the alleged victim changed her version of the story.

No, we don't. The answer to your question is in the news report in your own quotation:

When Cheshire told reporters that the woman claimed five people attacked her, investigator Linwood Wilson asked Cheshire to show him that page in the evidence.

The answer is 1) -- so Wilson was wrong

We need more information about this exchange to know who is right here.

In an interview later, Mr. Wilson said he had seen all the evidence and that the woman, a 27-year-old student and stripper, had not changed her story.

We do not know why the Duke police seized the AV's computer. Evidently it was not to do arithmetic.

An expected discussion about discovery was made moot before the hearing when Nifong provided the defense with a copy of his entire case file. Nifong said the file included 1,278 pages of evidence, two VHS tapes and a compact disc containing photos.

We don't know what Wilson said. There is no quote from Wilson. That is why I set out examples of what he may have said. Did Wilson interrupted Cheshire just after he said five, but just before he said twenty? We don't know.

Yesterday in front of the press you questioned my statement that the false accuser in the Duke case had stated she had been sexually assaulted by five people, as shown in newly released discovery.

"We've got none, we've got three, we've got five, we've got 20. I mean, pick a number -- any number you want to pick," Cheshire told reporters outside the courtroom. "She's told so many different stories I'm not sure how many there are."

"We've got none, we've got three, we've got five, we've got 20. I mean, pick a number -- any number you want to pick," Cheshire told reporters outside the courtroom. "She's told so many different stories I'm not sure how many there are." That statement is incorrect.

"If he has information that the victim changed her story several times, I think I have the right to see it," Wilson said. He said that, as an investigator, he has seen all documents in the case.

Newport, I know that one of the Jackie cousins was on "Inside Edition" trying to reanimate the date rape drug angle. Is this that same Jackie that floated the two-million dollar bribe story in a local paper earlier in the day?

"Nikki wanted her to come into the bathroom with her and the guys. She ended up in the bathroom with five guys who forced her to have intercourse and perform sexual acts." So the FA actually does put Roberts in the bathroom assisting in the rape.

"We've got none, we've got three, we've got five, we've got 20. I mean, pick a number -- any number you want to pick," Cheshire told reporters outside the courtroom. "She's told so many different stories I'm not sure how many there are."

Newport:

"Nikki wanted her to come into the bathroom with her and the guys. She ended up in the bathroom with five guys who forced her to have intercourse and perform sexual acts."

So the FA actually does put Roberts in the bathroom assisting in the rape.

1. This could be read another way. Nikki tries to convince Precious to come to come into the bathroom with her. During this conversation, they are not necessarily in the bathroom. (ex. Before I leave work today I might ask someone to come to my apartment for a beer. This does not mean I am actually in my apartment at that point.) Once Precious is in the bathroom, Nikki could have changed her mind and decided not to follow her.

"If he has information that the victim changed her story several times, I think I have the right to see it," Wilson said. He said that, as an investigator, he has seen all documents in the case.

When Cheshire told reporters that the woman claimed five people attacked her, investigator Linwood Wilson asked Cheshire to show him that page in the evidence.

"You're welcome to come get it," Cheshire said.

"Yeah, I'd love to see it," Wilson said.

Wilson walked away, and Cheshire continued talking with reporters.

Mr. Cheshire's news conference was briefly interrupted by Linwood Wilson, an investigator for the district attorney, who challenged him to show where in the documents the woman had changed her story. In an interview later, Mr. Wilson said he had seen all the evidence and that the woman, a 27-year-old student and stripper, had not changed her story.

When Cheshire told reporters that the woman claimed five people attacked her, investigator Linwood Wilson asked Cheshire to show him that page in the evidence.

You should be really proud of yourself.

The report Cheshire attached does not state the accuser claimed to have been raped by 20 men. If that document is the basis for this quote from Cheshire, "We've got none, we've got three, we've got five, we've got 20. I mean, pick a number -- any number you want to pick," Cheshire told reporters outside the courtroom. "She's told so many different stories I'm not sure how many there are." He is incorrect.

All the fuss that the accuser claimed to have been raped by twenty men and the defense has not shown us a statement claiming she ever said it?

Ha! If I caught it just scimming the post, IMHO was bound to catch it soon enough.

You're putting words in his mouth and then calling him a liar because those words aren't true. Cheshire didn't say that his "we've got 20" remark was supported by that report.

If that document is the basis for this quote from Cheshire,....

Yes, there was such a statement. It was made by a campus cop who reported that he'd heard it from a Durham cop, and it was mentioned in the report of Duke's investigative committee.

There are numerous press reports that the AV says she was raped by 20 men (google 20 men Duke Rape). The one I found were made by a Duke officer who says he overheard a Durham cop etc etc... They appear that they may be base on inaccurate or second hand information, i.e. they may be wrong. Nonetheless, they are out there, and there were reported by a cop. Cheshire did not make this up.

"We've got none, we've got three, we've got five, we've got 20. I mean, pick a number -- any number you want to pick," Cheshire told reporters outside the courtroom. "She's told so many different stories I'm not sure how many there are."

But Doe could have thought the cop was asking how many men were at the party. (InMyHumbleOpinion made a similar point in TalkLeft comments). Experts agree:

Let us consider for a moment the number of black men lynched following false allegations of rape. Similar to the justice Nifong seeks to render in Durham, in those instances the accuser received the benefit of the doubt. In fact, so weighted was the benefit that often doubt was withheld even as the evidence clearly pointed in the direction of innocence. The mere existence of the charge was enough to give it veracity and not even the testimony of God himself was enough to stay the hand of execution.

Ha! If I caught it just scimming the post, IMHO was bound to catch it soon enough. The imho effect.

It has been my experience in life that people with something of substance to say can state it simply and clearly and let it stand on its own. They certainly don't feel the need to constantly attack every post that people with different opinions write.

By doing so, you have succeeded in really dragging down the overall level of commentary on this board.

Look what I just found on google: Claim That Duke Rape Victim Said She Was Raped By 20 Men Appears To Be Nonsense

But Doe could have thought the cop was asking how many men were at the party. (InMyHumbleOpinion made a similar point in TalkLeft comments). Experts agree:

So, quibbling is not something to be looked up to as in "my what a good quibbler" you are, but rather it should be frowned upon as the work of a quibbler seeking to bring attention to herself and feed her own ego.

I didn't say he made it up, I said he is representing that it is part of the discovery. Maybe it is. Cheshire is saying these are stories she has told, not these are things reporters have claimed she said or these are things a Duke police officer has admitted he overheard on the loading dock, but never verified. Cheshire wasn't up there to spread rumors, he was is relating what is in the discovery.

However, that was from May 10 when we had far fewer verified pieces of information (from statements taken by DPD etc).

Given what we have seen so far, I think the likelyhood that the AV made the "raped by 20 guys" statement is high.

She said that her v@gina was sore and she was bleeding. [redacted] said that there were about 20 guys there.

The highest number I have seen is five. If it is in the discovery file it will be leaked soon enough. We do have the report written by a Durham police officer who was at the hospital at around the same time the Duke officer overheard the "20 guys" remark. That officer's report does state soemthing about, well lookie here: "20 guys." She said that her v@gina was sore and she was bleeding. [redacted] said that there were about 20 guys there.

By the way, anyone here in doubt that the AV is mentally ill now?

Seligmann dressed as Santa Claus was included with the Durham court filing.

OMG! I found the moustache!

With respect to the newly released page 1304 of discovery....I thought the most interesting aspect of the report was not the number of alleged assailants, but the additional two dancers....each of whom had names (Angel and Tammy). While one can argue that a traumatic event can cause you to make mistakes and leave out details, how does it lead you to create fictitious people with names?

As others have pointed out, english is an ambiguous language. You are not the arbitrator of what is correct or incorrect. The information in this case is confusing and contradictory in many ways.

And according to Seligman's cellphone log, he was occupied in phone conversations with his girlfriend almost continually between 12:05 and 12:14, when he called the cab.

Others reply to you because they are used to normal discourse with reasonable people in these type of forums (I do think TL rises above the usual junk in many chat rooms).

You seem to be intelligent.

Why not use your ability to make a valid case instead of the endless countless "corrections."

You might be able to be convincing!

In case you haven't figured it out, people don't like nags. Or quibblers.

You continue to make assumptions about what the defense is "representing." You did the same thing about the supplemental motion, where you assumed the motion said, "JJ said the AV had sex with four men." The motion did not say that.

As a defense lawyer, as an advocate, why is Cheshire not entitled to credit the story by the Duke PD officer that she said 20 men?

BTW, you never answered my question about the blood test. You kept repeating the blood can still be tested. My question was (slightly paraphrased here): can you think of any good reason (consistent with Nifong being an ethical and competent attorney) why the blood has not already been tested?

OSBORNE: I take it from Mr. Nifong's representations here, there are no toxicology reports.

JUDGE STEPHENS: At this point in time I assume their are none.

NIFONG: That's correct.

Nifong doesn't cre anything about my daughter, Travis says. All he cares about is winning the case.

In case you haven't figured it out, I'm not here to make friends.

It has been almost two months, says the accuser's mother, since they have seen or talked to their daughter or her two young children. She and Travis have grown accustomed to the media descending on their home to ask about the case. "Duke did something to those DNA results so they would favor those boys," she said on the April afternoon after the results were released.

The lawyer, Joseph B. Cheshire, spoke to reporters after Michael B. Nifong, the Durham County district attorney, delivered 536 pages of documents to defense lawyers. Mr. Cheshire said a quick review indicated that the woman had given other versions of events. Mr. Cheshire described the woman as "the false accuser" and said she had claimed rape by 3, 5 and 20 men.

Mr. Cheshire's news conference was briefly interrupted by Linwood Wilson, an investigator for the district attorney, who challenged him to show where in the documents the woman had changed her story. In an interview later, Mr. Wilson said he had seen all the evidence and that the woman, a 27-year-old student and stripper, had not changed her story.

"We've got none, we've got three, we've got five, we've got 20. I mean, pick a number -- any number you want to pick," Cheshire told reporters outside the courtroom. "She's told so many different stories I'm not sure how many there are."

Defense lawyers have declined News & Observer requests for copies of the evidence, and Cheshire did not make them available Thursday. An investigator in Nifong's office called into question Cheshire's claims Thursday.

When Cheshire told reporters that the woman claimed five people attacked her, investigator Linwood Wilson asked Cheshire to show him that page in the evidence.

"You're welcome to come get it," Cheshire said.

"Yeah, I'd love to see it," Wilson said.

Wilson walked away, and Cheshire continued talking with reporters.

Cheshire told reporters yesterday that at one point, the accuser said five, not three, men had assaulted her in the bathroom of 610 North Buchanan Blvd. He released the document after Linwood Wilson, an investigator for the prosecution, publicly criticized the idea that she had changed her story.

"Oh really. Well I'd like to see that page," Wilson said loudly to Cheshire in a hallway of the Durham County Courthouse.

"We've got none, we've got three, we've got five, we've got 20. I mean, pick a number -- any number you want to pick," Cheshire told reporters outside the courtroom. "She's told so many different stories I'm not sure how many there are."

"Oh really. Well I'd like to see that page," Wilson said loudly to Cheshire in a hallway of the Durham County Courthouse.

No, IMHO. No one here would accuse you of being a consensus builder. You have your own persona. As I have said previously, you were not one of those people in Isla Vista who developed her intellect by humbly contemplating the jewel in the heart of the lotus flower.

IMHO,

Yes, I do think you are primarly responsible for dragging down the quality of the discouse on the board. I think that's too bad - there aren't many places where you can have a good discussion about this case. I think this was the best.

The whole family is a bunch of dispicable liars. Broomstick comments, beating comments, pay-off lies, all bull sh*t to try and stir up a civil case.

These boys need to get into Federal Court. Can anyone think of a way?

In releasing one page of the latest documentation, Cheshire was responding Friday to questions raised a day earlier by Linwood Wilson, Nifong's investigator.

The questions came up as Cheshire gave a news conference in the county courthouse, noting the various numbers of alleged rapists mentioned by the accuser: 20, 3 and most recently five

"Pick a number," saidCheshire.

Wilson interrupted to ask the defense lawyer where he got his information.

Wilson said in an interview Friday, however, that Cheshire was "trying to twist what I asked him." He said he was questioning the lawyer's reference to 20 alleged rapists, not the reference to five.

"I was upset about the 20," Wilson acknowledged. "There ain't nothing about 20 in anything I've read. I wanted him to show it to me. One of the police officers did say there were 20 people present, but he didn't say 20 people raped this woman.

"We all know she said three," Wilson added. "We all know that because three people are charged. I wasn't questioning the three or the five. I was only questioning the 20."

However, a reference to 20 assailants was made in a Duke police report on March 14. It said that "a female was brought into the Emergency Department by Durham Police in reference to possible rape. The female was picked up at the Kroger on Hillsborough Rd., and she was claiming that she was raped by approximately 20 white males.

I did not say that.

It wouldn't be a lie, wumhenry did say that, but it wouldn't make him an honest defense lawyer and advocate.

I can think of a few [good reasons (consistent with Nifong being a competent and ethical attorney) why the blood has not been tested yet.]

What is dangerous - and I've talked to other attorneys - is what will happen in the community if the trial takes place here, and the jury comes back with a not guilty verdict. I can't impress upon you too strongly how rife with tension, mostly racial, this community is, because of this case.

"I was upset about the 20," Wilson acknowledged. "There ain't nothing about 20 in anything I've read. I wanted him to show it to me. One of the police officers did say there were 20 people present, but he didn't say 20 people raped this woman. "We all know she said three," Wilson added. "We all know that because three people are charged. I wasn't questioning the three or the five. I was only questioning the 20."

"We all know she said three," Wilson added. "We all know that because three people are charged..."

Hey Madison, I was in Long Beach during the LA riots too. Naples to be exact. I knew you were a "homes."

Naples is nice for a Christmastime stroll with family.

Why could Nifong and the County of Durham not be sued for malicious prosecution under the civil rights acts in Federal Court in North Carolina? Not to seek damages, but to institute a federal investigation of the case to free the suspects from the prosecution? Why would Durham and Nifong be immune from that type of suit?

A court of the United States may not grant an injunction to stay proceedings in a state court except as expressly authorized by Act of Congress, or where necessary in aid of its jurisdiction, or to protect or effectuate its judgments.