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History Lesson for Our Leader

By Jeralyn, Section Other Politics
Posted on Mon Sep 19, 2005 at 12:43:38 PM EST
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Via Making Light:

From another book George didn’t read at Yale:

When resources are exhausted, then levies are made under pressure. When power and resources are exhausted, then the homeland is drained. The common people are deprived of seventy percent of their budget, while the government’s expenses for equipment amount to sixty percent of the budget.

— Sun Tzu
The Art of War

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    History Lesson for Our Leader | 24 comments (24 topical)
    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#1)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:03 PM EST
    ...another book George didn’t read at Yale: — Sun Tzu The Art of War Asking George to read Sun Tzu is not fair. It's too far above his head. This is probably more his speed: From "Level 6 News - ...even a six-year-old could understand":
    Imposter in the Whitehouse On Tuesday the boss said: " "...And to the extent that the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility." Ok, what's going on here. The boss NEVER admits to stuff like that. Where is the real boss? What's going on? Next thing we know he'll be admitting that the budget deficit is way too high, and then he'll be saying it's a crime that so many Americans have no health insurance. Where will it all lead? Before we know it, we'll stop pre-emptively invading other countries. Then how are we going to test out all our new fangled weapons? Ask your Mommy or Daddy if they think the boss has gone crazy.
    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#2)
    by Strick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:03 PM EST
    You are aware that "levies" in this case means a military draft, right? And the current deficit is only 4%, not the 70% Sun Tsu mentions. I'd also take bets on our resources being exhausted. When the last time you went without a meal?

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:03 PM EST
    Strick's apologetics aside, you don't have to go back 2,500 years to understand the Bush Rape of America. 1890's or 1920's will do. The Sunzi quote is horribly mal-translated. Strick, remember when the Iraq war was going to cost TWO billion? Remember when they were going to throw flowers? Remember when you had any credibility?

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:03 PM EST
    There's one huge problem with your theory: taxes have gone down. And here in Maryland, where we have a rational governor, state taxes haven't gone up either (although counties with Democratic councils have raies property taxes - interesting, that). In fact, our governor here is trying to lower the state level property tax to compensate for the stupidity of (some) local officials (with property values doubling and tripling, a rate increase was hardly needed if they wanted more tax revenue). So that link - it doesn't align well with reality

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#5)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:03 PM EST
    Actually Strick, you have lttle to no reading comprehension. Sun Tzu stated that the common people are deprived of 70% of their budget. Not that the national deficit will reach that mark. Also, draining resources does not only apply to "missed meals" although there are millions in this country that DID miss a meal yesterday. Wrong wingers live in total denial that the consequence of a capitalist system is the starvation of a percentage of it's adherents. Draining resources applies to any process which uses resources faster than they can be replaced. In our case, dwindling forests, dependance on oil (both foreign and domestic, try to replace that atthe rate we use it), increased lack of bio-diversity (which the history of the earth has shown is absolutely vital for the survival of all species),the destruction of the water supply, the killing and maiming of young men and women can all be included as "draining resources". Now I know that any good wrong winger will deny the above purely on principle. Oh well, time will tell. Oh, and how much is our defense budget as a % of the sum? The figure generally thrown about is approximately 401.3 billion dollars. Of course, thatis the "official" figure, actual defense spending is of course much higher than that. So yeah... total budgetof what? 2.1 trillion dollars? Military and molitary related spending acounts for anywhere from 19% (the whitehoue figure) to 40+% (independant analysis of the budget)... But the point is that defense spending increases almost yearly, both in real numbers as well as measured as a percentage of the sum of the total budget. Sun Tzu was no dummy...

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#6)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:03 PM EST
    On a similar note, I am fully aware of the fact that the link I provided is not the White House website, nor is it endorsed by Pat RObertson or Bill O'Reilly. So of course it has no credibility whatsoever.

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:03 PM EST
    Johnny: "Sun Tzu stated that the common people are deprived of 70% of their budget." Actually, he did not. The statement makes no sense at all in ancient Chinese terms. Budget? The common people during those times lived in tyranny and had no control over anything the government did. There WERE no 'budgets.' Does sound familiar....

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:04 PM EST
    et al - If Sun Tzu had not existed both the Left and the Right would have had to invent him.

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:04 PM EST
    Well said PPJ. Most people that quote him haven't a clue about what he meant because he was so ambiguous. Kind of like that Nostrodamus cat. Make of what they say what you want it to mean. Although I doubt there are many who have read all of Sun Tzu's work, which would help in understanding him there are plenty of people who will interpret it out of context in any way they feel works for thier side. Sort of like the Bible. Har Har.

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#10)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:04 PM EST
    There's one huge problem with your theory: taxes have gone down.
    Uhhh, that IS the problem, expenditures are way up, the deficit is way up, and the admin and rethugs refuse to reestablish taxes on the rich that they previously cut. The poor people are dying for this admin and the poor people are having their benefits cut by this admin. Anyone else see a problem with that?

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:04 PM EST
    Jimcee and Jim, Chinese scholars. NOT. Sunzi is indeed a complex author, but he is not vague or ambiguous. These military classics were practical manuals, not prognostication like Nostradamus. So Jimcee is just lying. Why isn't that surprising? Mistranslation is commonplace, as in this sample. And there were in fact several authors, some of whom left behind traces of an esoteric military knowledge based on the patterns of nature (that they conceived). Those traces are a deeper resonance -- they don't obscure the practical value of the texts. All of such discussion is a waste of time while there are these cocky traitor-lickers among us. One traitor in the military classics, a tyrant, came once to a fallen tree, so large it could not be removed from the road. As he walked up to inspect it, he noticed that it had an inscription on the trunk. It said, "Here died the tyrant so-and-so," the man himself. As he read it in horror, hidden archers nailed him to the log with a great number of arrows, like the scene in the Kurosawa movie 'Kumonoso jo' (Cobweb Castle, or Throne of Blood). Sic semper tyranis.

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:05 PM EST
    DA writes:
    Hardly the kind of folks who would find ambiguous works useful or appealing.
    Glad to know you have such universal faith in our military. PIL - Nope, I'm not a scholar of Sun Tzu. Read some of his book, I had a boss who thought it applied to sales and sales management. He didn't last much past the firsy chapter, seeing as how sales and management thereof isn't war. BTW - Nice insult, glad to see your abilities have reached middle school level. You know, I think all the sexual references would give old Sun Tzu something to write about. et al - If you like history, I recommend "The Road to Ubar," by Nicholas Clapp. It is a non-political story of the search for this ancient city in SA, and is fscinating.

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#14)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:05 PM EST
    actually, two other books that gw should read, but are probably way beyond his comprehension are: carl von clausewitz - "on war" adam smith - "the wealth of nations" both provide classic theories that stand the test of time.

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:05 PM EST
    DA - Well now. I am glad that you are a fan. Who would have thought it> You write:
    Anyway, you're the expert on middle school insults, as you've shown here time and again............
    True, many of your comments have raised memories of those years.

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:06 PM EST
    Jim admits he has no particular knowledge of the book, and jimcee is a NO SHOW as usual. Why should trolls defend their statements? Why should Jim comment when he is IGNORANT? Never stopped him before.

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:06 PM EST
    Dark, I recommend The Seven Military Classics of Ancient China, translated by Ralph Sawyer. I do NOT recommend any of Thomas Cleary's translations. Here's a sample of how Sunzi might serve soldiers, in distinction with the ignorant and false statements made by Jim and jimcee: "If the enemy is for[d]ing a river to advance, do not confront them in the water. When half their forces have crossed, it wil be advantageous to strike them. If you want to engage the enemy in battle, do not array your forces near [a] river to confront the invader, but look for tenable ground and occupy the heights." Yeah, that has NO value to soldiers studying military strategy. What LOONS! What Moon Runes! What Fairies! What freakin' intellectuals. They probably study science, too, the sinning fools.

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:07 PM EST
    The reason why I recommend the book I did is because it is that it is important to compare the other texts of the same sort, to get a needed contemporary perspective. Historical commentaries are useful, but they enclose a great number of traditional misconceptions or interpretations. Interesting in its own right, but if addressing the actual nature of the texts themselves, reading the collection itself is revealing. I also note that Sawyers' text is 'a selection of the Military Book Club,' which is probably also due to the extensive appendices which describe the nature of warfare in the era.

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:07 PM EST
    IMHO, Cleary is VERY unreliable. Sawyer's translation is blocky (as noted in that review, a common 'problem') but I prefer blocky to smoothly glossed translations which vary from the meaning of the text in many cases. Chinese texts are rife with odd statements that thousands of years of scholars have tried to figure out. In many cases those ideas are wrong, as can be seen in such compendia, when you compare the various commentators. Those problems are greater in texts translated by people with a preset prejudice. Cleary is a Tibetan Buddhist, so his translations tend to make TB interpretations. Not so important for military classics, but worth noting.

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:07 PM EST
    DA quotes:
    "Lure them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion"
    A perfect example of why Sun Tzu is overrated. This is one of the best known tactics for a pitched battle, and has been invented, re-invented time and again. Let's face it. Sun Tzu is a pop icon for people who like to act like they are more intelligent than the average bear. Here, let me try one. "Never use sharp hatchet to trim toenails." Another. "Always fight with sun at back." Another. "If we had some ham we would have some ham and eggs if we had some ham." I am LOL.

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#26)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:07 PM EST
    DA- Hasn't anyone told you about progress. We are much more advanced than Sun Tzu. Gosh we have Bremmer, Wolfowitz and Rummy, and buster bunker bombs. We don't need any of that chinko savage sh*t, man they didn't even have cars or planes back then. Those primative ooky pooky occultists were probably cannibals anyway. SunTsu,... horse pucky, kids today know more than he ever did.

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:08 PM EST
    Sunzi describes attacking armies. He didn't favor attacks on civilians, because he knew that causes hatred, and hatred causes problems IN CASE YOU DIDN'T KNOW. Bush acts as if he doesn't know that hatred causes problems, but in fact his actions are intended to cause hatred. Because his policy is intended as a symbolic action of domination, as Wolfowitz made quite clear. TERRORISM, in other words. Doing terrorism is a violation of our laws, and is immoral. Those who think its OK because that's how their chess game goes are racists, closeted or not. Bad leaders like Bush are described in the Sunzi, with considerable pity for those who might live in such times. Jim is anti-intellectual, but as a Bushie it's not odd to hear that he has a shallow understanding of the value of expert council, even old expert council. Bushies prefer shows of incredible inexperience and incompetence -- that allows them to steal. To hell with the victims!

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:08 PM EST
    PIL - I don't know what Sun knew, and you don't know what Sun knew, so quit the posturing and back patting. If you are not careful you'll hurt your arm. et al - I repeat. Everyone I have ever known who loved to quote Sun Tzu did so out of a desire to appear smarter than the average bear. And, if that shoe fits folks, wear it.

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:08 PM EST
    Paul in LA LA Bush acts as if he doesn't know that hatred causes problems, I have a question (well actually two) for you. #1 - Do you think any of the people in the Middle East hated us before GW (or his father for that matter) came along? #2 - Please give me 'your' definition of what 'you think' a liar is.

    Re: History Lesson for Our Leader (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:09 PM EST
    Sigh Taxes went down, and government revenues went up - just as they did when Kennedy and Reagan enacted tax cuts. The problem is, the Congress - without regard to the controlling party - spends money at a rate faster than revenue grows. This was true under Johnson, Reagan, and now under Bush. The bottom line is, Congress always spends more than the money that comes in, regardless of tax policy - even the so called surpluses of the 90's were an accounting gimmick - the Republican Congress and Democratic administration liked taking credit for vapor. What we need is fewer "earmarks", like the various atrocities (Don Young of Alaska comes to mind) in the highway bill.

    History Lesson for Our Leader | 24 comments (24 topical)